[kikki]

HB - was really interested to read this:

It wasn't like daydreaming for me; most of my facing came at night when I was trying to go to sleep...during the day, there were so much going on, and so many distractions; not to mention I had to still function at my job, and deal with people, so I would put it "on hold", until I was alone again.
It is true they want to be left alone to deal with themselves, it's easier that way...and I wasn't any different.

My H's major obsession, after the OW, is his work.  (Actually - work probably comes before the OW these days, but I can't be certain??)  He's just been here, and sat and talked to me about yet another great idea that he has (they are all tied into our company, but are new offshoots).  I truly wonder how many new ideas he can come up with to stop him facing what he needs to face.
He has mentioned that he hasn't slept well in about three or more years.  He still isn't sleeping well.

What I was wondering is this - Do you think all of the MLCers who have busy distracted days, would do their processing at night?  Is this how the shadow forces itself to be faced, even when the MLCer is running as fast as their legs will take them?

[WarriorPriestess]

HB - was really interested to read this:

It wasn't like daydreaming for me; most of my facing came at night when I was trying to go to sleep...during the day, there were so much going on, and so many distractions; not to mention I had to still function at my job, and deal with people, so I would put it "on hold", until I was alone again.
It is true they want to be left alone to deal with themselves, it's easier that way...and I wasn't any different.

My H's major obsession, after the OW, is his work.  (Actually - work probably comes before the OW these days, but I can't be certain??)  He's just been here, and sat and talked to me about yet another great idea that he has (they are all tied into our company, but are new offshoots).  I truly wonder how many new ideas he can come up with to stop him facing what he needs to face.
He has mentioned that he hasn't slept well in about three or more years.  He still isn't sleeping well.

What I was wondering is this - Do you think all of the MLCers who have busy distracted days, would do their processing at night?  Is this how the shadow forces itself to be faced, even when the MLCer is running as fast as their legs will take them?

Hey Kikki, I just responded to this on your thread, but it sounds so much like my H.  Trip.

[Confused and angry]

Well its been a weird run this past week! First of all wife's restraining order expired last Monday, and I tried to call her and tell her I was picking up my kids for a few days because I've had such little contact with them in 3 months due to the restraining order! No answer so I picked up my youngest son the next day, no reaction from wife so the next day I picked up my handicapped son. Well still no contact with w then. Next day at 6a.m. She has Mil call and tell me to get handicapped son home by 7a.m. So he can get on bus to school, I reply ill take him to school, mil says what about his wheelchair in which I reply I have one and I will get him to school. 2 minutes after I get off phone with MIL the W calls and screams for me to get him home in which I reply I got it taken care of and hung up the phone. Well later that day I went to pick up sons from school and W had picked them up half hour earlier. I just left it alone for the day.Next afternoon I go and pick up youngest from school and I send W a text telling her I have him,she then texts back that was fine but that I needed to give her a work schedule so we can figure out a visitation schedule, in which I reply OK and then I asked her when I could pick up handicapped son and she told me he was sick and that I could get him next day when I dropped youngest off for a b-day party. I asked if I could pick up both boys after that for a few days and she said yes. Next day I went and dropped off youngest son with his mom and told him to tell his mom to text me when party was over. A couple hours later W texts and tells me I can get youngest but handicapped son was still sick. I text back what was wrong with him and she tells me a cold and a fever. I tell her give him kiss for me and she replies K. So yesterday I was hanging out with my son when she texts asking if I was keeping son Monday night because it was his b-day and if I was she would like to pick him up Tuesday. I told her that if she already made plans then she could have him on Monday and I'd get him Tuesday, she tells me no plans and to go ahead and keep him for b-day and she would get him next day. She also tells me that I need to pick up sons Valentine day stuff so he can take it to school on Tuesday. Funny no contact with her in 3 months and all of a sudden she is starting to initiate all contact with me. So this morning she calls early in the a.m. And asks to speak to son to tell him happy B-day, after son gets off phone with W son tells me that his mom told him to remind me to get Valentine day stuff. Well this morning was our first mediation appointment, well I get there expecting to go up against wife's new pitbull attorney! She just hired her last week, well to my suprise no pitbull. Wife come in and still no eye contact or small talk while waiting for mediator. Well we go in to mediation and to my suprise after mediator ask us what we want I tell her I want a fifty fifty split with the kids and wife responds she wants the same, because she could use the help. During our conversation with mediator she kept trying to take shots at me, but at the same time she wants a fifty fifty split and that we need to communicate more and come up with a game plan for the kids! This is the same woman that wanted to take sole custody of children and wanted absolutely no contact with me. Is this a sign she's cycling, I've also heard her and OM are done, is this also a sign? I hate to read anything into anything but its hard when this is not what I expected this week, I was prepared for war and I got compromise! What is going on? Is she setting me up again or is she really starting to soften? If it is real is their a chance she is starting to see I'm not the cause of her unhappiness?

[WarriorPriestess]

Thundarr, I can see why you might have felt ganged up on on this thread.  You got a lot of 2x4s.  But I didn't see anyone attacking you.  I see a lot of frustration with what seems to be a deliberate choice on your part to not detach, to continue to stay hooked in to your wife, to focus on the negative, and to make your happiness (or lack thereof) conditional on her behavior.   That of course is your choice.  But a lot of very wise very caring people are telling you differently. 

 RCR, OP, HB, Limitless, Ready have all posted what seem to be variations of the same response to you.  Many others have posted similar comments to you over time as well.  You choose to stay in the same negative mindset.  You speak of wanting to promote an atmosphere of hope, but then you post comments such as this:

The reason I say this is because in my case, as with most all of us here, the end result of all this will most likely be that either our spouses do not return or do so much damage we would not want them to anyway.  Happy endings (especially for male LBSers) seem to be as rare as people struck by lightning.

That comment is extremely UNhopeful and unhelpful.  If you really want to promote an atmosphere of hope, post something hopeful, not hopeless!  You can do it. 

[Thundarr]

Hey WP,

I can understand that you would interpret my post as being about me personally given the timeframe of it and all (and part of it could apply) but for the most part it had to do with observations over the last few months.  I don't feel "ganged up on" so to speak as I do know that the 2 x 4's came from ones who genuinely care and who know me pretty well.  As you probably know by now, there was more to my story from Sunday as unshared in my own thread but the fact that my W remains my single greatest weakness is obvious.  It was my first cycle down in awhile though and I bounced back rather quickly so at least it's an improvement, huh? Lol!  It's so hard when all our interactions are pleasant and the ghost of my family is right in front of me but I can't comets embrace it or reel it in.  It could be worse I know.

But, anyway, I actually am thick-skinned to everyone except my W and kids sometimes and I really do appreciate the 2 x 4's, and those who clubbed me with them! 

And as far as working on myself, I should have pointed out that this was a MAJOR focus in grad school working on my counseling degree.  It took me almost 2 years but I finally reached a point of being satisfied with myself and having a great self-knowledge.  Of course, that was before this Hell hit me I'll admit.

C and A, I've told you many times you have many reasons to be hopeful.  I've always felt your being a good father to your son will always be noticed by her,and it's not you she's running from.  Stay string, brother!!

[MLCwife]

On that note, I address this to RCR.
But, I do feel that in some ways things have begun to get out of control.  Perhaps it has to do with the influx of new people over the past year as this board has grown by leaps and bounds since I joined last July.  At that time it was very centralized and seemed to have a definite focus that reflected your own philosophy.  Now I feel that there are factions branching off and not only skewing some of the information but also tending to form their own philosophy which bleeds onto the board as accepted fact when often it is purely opinion or even misunderstood interpretations.  I don't think anyone means to do harm, but it does seem that the message you brought has been somewhat mis-construed by many on here, including veterans and moderators at times.  I also think that strong personalities often overshadow the messages of hope and kindness that makes up the mission statement.  The end result of this is that thoughts and opinions that are different than the "norm" are often unsafe to bring forward, and I feel that many either silence themselves or don't find the courage to post for fear of being attacked or ganged up on by those who think their opinion is correct.

So this must be the philosophy that RCR says NOT TO LOOK IN THE MIRROR AND WORK ON YOURSELF that you have been theorizing lately.

Are you serious?
This board is very lightly moderated, and all RCR can DO is guide people in the right direction. Maybe you should do a refresher course from DGU in reading the ARTICLES about what RCR does propose. I am sure no one wants the moderators to be dictating what people can THINK or not, even my suggestion to YOU about working on YOURSELF is not one that any moderator would be able to impose on YOU.  This is a self help board and if one does not help themselves no amount of begging, pleading or pushing is going to force them to do so.  I do not see what you are saying here to be quite honest. RCR has allowed everyone to write what they want to put down and with the exception of a few moderated words this is a very FREE forum.  I for one would like to see it continue that way and commend RCR and all the other moderators for their efforts.

[justasking]

Thundarr

but it does seem that the message you brought has been somewhat mis-construed by many on here, including veterans and moderators at times.

This concerns me as a moderator. I think it important that you pm RCR and let her know what your observations are because as moderators it is important not to misconstrue any messages to anyone.

Moderators constantly discuss the way the board is being taken, with RCR leading the way. With an influx of newbies there is always challenges about new thoughts and opinions. At times the forum has been through bumpy periods but that is the joy of open discussion and debate and a new forum that is evolving.

What we must protect are the theories being given as right when all the anecdotal evidence says otherwise. This causes confusion and angst and ultimately the possibility of a our bright futures being blighted with or without our spouses. Newbies particularly hang onto to every word and try and find ways to mend and fix their spouses. I remember being there as well. It is for these posters that we particularly need to keep the clarity of what is right whilst our H/W are in replay and that is detach, mirror work (and no one is perfect as we are ourselves evolving as life progresses) and getting on with our lives whilst our MLCers are spun off as aliens into space.

[Rollercoasterider]

… in my case, as with most all of us here, the end result of all this will most likely be that either our spouses do not return or do so much damage we would not want them to anyway. Happy endings (especially for male LBSers) seem to be as rare as people struck by lightning.

Some of you will not like what I have to say to about this comment.
I agree it is not a helpful, healthy or hope-promoting statement. But as of right now, it may be true—though I do disagree with the rarity being similar to being struck by lightening since At-Home Low-Energy female MLCers may bring such odds up and Thundaar generalized his statement to include all female MLCers.

I think the odds are better for reconciliation if the MLCer is at-home, low energy (that usually goes with being at-home) or if they are a Clinging Boomerang—supposing the LBS learns what to do as a Stander. I don’t like to say that too emphatically because it’s not something I have any peer-reviewed data to support and more importantly I don’t want to destroy or even damage the Hope of LBS whose MLCers are not one of those types. But the reality is that most LBSs here will probably not reconcile with their spouses.

A lot of you did not like me saying that. It was scary and deflated your hope. I’ve been working on a response to it and will soon post it. It’s at the blog now, but my access to the backend of the blog has been inconsistent and I need to start reactivating plug-ins to get everything where it should be. So I may post it in its own thread first. But that comment of mine went on…focus on what I said next.

But the goal is that through the support and education we offer, we will gradually increase those odds of reconciliation. So right now it may the odds may be stacked against, but as we all learn the best ways to Stand and interact with MLCers and focus on Self, we will have more and more reconciliation success stories. And that may be contagious because when there are few successes there are higher doubts; so when you friend reaches reconciliation, you may have an easier time believing you can or will too.

Now look at Thundaar’s statement again. Look at the piece that follows the word or.
…or do so much damage we would not want them to anyway.
That statement is not about whether your MLCer will want to return; he’s right, many of you will come to a point where you choose to stop Standing. There is nothing wrong with that—though I understand that it frightens you. But that may be a choice made from a place of healing and inner strength by a person who got to that place because of Standing.

I think it is perhaps inappropriate coming from Thundaar—and that’s not fair because he is simply being honest with how he feels and sees it. But Thundaar, it is also something you say from within your fears and you lack the objectivity of standing outside of the LBS point of view. You are expressing a common LBS fear, but you are expressing it as though it is a certainty—fact—rather than fear. People don’t like hearing that because negative facts diminish their hope—and yes, often they are misplacing hope, but that’s the way it is. I agree with the comments that it is a negative statement and with the requests for you to keep it more positive.
What a hypocrite I am! But I’m no longer an LBS and I’m trying to change the possible truth of your statement. I say it to rally people to be a part of the movement of change, you say it because it’s how you feel and feelings can be contagious, so other people may see what you say and let it infect their hope too. When I was an LBS I was very careful about what I said. I was certain my marriage would continue and we would reconcile—absolutely certain. But I knew the odds are not 100% reconciliations, but I did not focus on those odds. Odds are about groups, not individuals. Your situation does not and should not end in divorce because someone else’s ended that way, but when you focus on the odds, that is what you are doing, basing you situation on theirs.

Now I did take Thundaar’s comment out of context and in context it’s more flawed.

[But, other than the aspect of not focusing on your spouse I see little point in putting any extra effort into working on yourself if you were okay with you to begin with.  The reason I say this is because in my case, as with most all of us here, the end result of all this will most likely be that either our spouses do not return or do so much damage we would not want them to anyway.  Happy endings (especially for male LBSers) seem to be as rare as people struck by lightning.

Mirror-Work is a separate thing from the MLCer. Mirror-Work is about the LBSs Self-Focus—re-read my description in my post above for a clarification on what it is. SO you shouldn’t do Self-Work because your spouse might not return. Are you kidding? That statement is saying that Self-Work is meant to get the spouse back and is for the MLCer, not you.

UM….NOOOOOOOOOOO.
All that Self-Focus stuff is for you. In the beginning many of you will do it you’re your MLCer, we know and accept that as part of your process. Often those early changes will be things you like anyway and you will naturally transition to making changes for you.

Thundaar, you say you are detaching better and such…great, I don’t doubt it. But that statement is the basis of why people are consistently saying you are focusing on your MLCer. You are still not there yet; you aren’t getting it.

And as far as working on myself, I should have pointed out that this was a MAJOR focus in grad school working on my counseling degree.  It took me almost 2 years but I finally reached a point of being satisfied with myself and having a great self-knowledge.  Of course, that was before this Hell hit me I'll admit.

And that is relevant how…?
You have basically just said that because of your training you get a free pass on the Mirror-Work. Oh and that counselors don’t have to change. Once you like your Self—whether others like you or not—stay the same. Of course if you do that you will become stagnant. Go back to Erikson’s stages.
Stage7, Middle Adulthood: Generativity vs. Stagnation

I agree that you are pretty-thick skinned and can take 2x4s, but your thick-skin is part of the problem. You don’t really let the messages get through, but defend, deny (you misunderstood me is a common denial from you) and make excuses.

[Rollercoasterider]

I do feel that in some ways things have begun to get out of control.  Perhaps it has to do with the influx of new people over the past year as this board has grown by leaps and bounds since I joined last July.  At that time it was very centralized and seemed to have a definite focus that reflected your own philosophy.  Now I feel that there are factions branching off and not only skewing some of the information but also tending to form their own philosophy which bleeds onto the board as accepted fact when often it is purely opinion or even misunderstood interpretations.  I don't think anyone means to do harm, but it does seem that the message you brought has been somewhat mis-construed by many on here, including veterans and moderators at times.  I also think that strong personalities often overshadow the messages of hope and kindness that makes up the mission statement.  The end result of this is that thoughts and opinions that are different than the "norm" are often unsafe to bring forward, and I feel that many either silence themselves or don't find the courage to post for fear of being attacked or ganged up on by those who think their opinion is correct.

This is not a new thing happening on the board. It was this way long before you came around. As a new and growing board we go through periods of change and growth as the community evolves. The atmosphere changes as we grow and we notice a few upheavals every few months. They preceded your arrival here.
I started the Moderator Team at one.
At another I started the Mentoring Program.
At another I posted Advice for Advising.
Sometimes you will not notice anything publicly from me. This is a regular topic of discussion on the Moderator Board. I want to keep that feeling of safety which is why I added a reminder of the mission of the Unconditionals in the News Feed on the front page. And I send each newbie a PM—it’s the same basic PM (and I have added a piece for LTers), but it is not something automated within the forum, I send each one personally—I would love it if it could be automated!

Your arrival on the board was a period of change—because of your arrival. Thundaar, you are not a leader, but you are an influencer—and a bit of a heckler. But I don’t think you really get how your influence can affect the board. When it has come to some people feeling there is at times a spread of negativity infecting the atmosphere; you are often in the thick of it and sometimes you are the seed or root. Statements like the one I referenced in that last post about the odds are an example.

It is not an inaccurate statement. But is it healthy? Are you simply trying to be honest and get people to face the truth? Is it simply your opinion?
Do you remember the uproar when President Bush (Sr.) said he didn’t like broccoli? People were concerned about the influence of the statement, not the honesty. Or what about Oprah’s lawsuit with the beef industry in Texas—which is how she met Dr. Phil.

If you would like further clarification or examples of what I'm talking about I would be happy to PM you as I want to see this board live on for years to come.

I would love to have PM’s about this sort of thing from anyone. I may not respond, because I often will put it up for discussion at the Moderator’s Board instead.
But I rarely notice these thing happening on the board because I am not a day-to-day reader of the threads. I rely on you guys to let me know when something is going on that doesn’t feel right—though it is helpful to me when you reference the posts and threads so I know where to look.

[Thundarr]

Thank you for taking the time to respond, RCR, and thanks to JA and MLCWife as well.  I have read and re-read all of your responses as well as my own and would like to respond in turn.

MLCWife - When I first read your post this morning, I misread one of your middle sentences and understood you to be saying that I wasn't being honest.  Upon re-reading I now see what you're saying and I really appreciate your opinion, whether you agree with me or not.  My opinion is no better than anyone else's here and should not be taken as such as we are all in the same boat and reliant upon each other for survival in many ways.

JA - I appreciate your concern and acknowledgment of what I said without castigating me for it.  You could well have taken offense and responded much differently than you did, and I want you and everyone else to know I have no agenda nor do I have any vendettas toward anyone here.  My intent is just what I said it was and that is to help in any way I can to make this a safe haven for all no matter where they are in this process.  I will PM RCR with the examples I spoke of, but again it's a minute quantity in comparison to all of the good things that go on here daily.  I want to be a part of the solution and not the problem.

RCR - On that last note, it struck me very hard that my influence could affect others in a negative way.  Despite my field of expertise, I am in uncharted waters here and fighting against many things that seem to be in contrast to my training and education.  The situation I'm in truly doesn't make sense to me when practical and logical lenses are applied to it.  I can see no reason that my W and I are separated as there has been nothing really bad happen between us and we make each other laugh even to this day.  I, like so many on here, thought that I had as good a marriage as there was and that my W and I would live happily ever after.  Life has thrown a curveball unlike any I've ever experienced and in many ways I'm dumbfounded by it even given the information you have collected and shared.  I'm known to use the terms "Twilight Zone, Hell, Bizarro World, Psycho World" and many others to describe what just simply doesn't add up.  The concepts of "covert depression" espoused on here are seldom referenced, even in a graduate school with the highest level of accreditation.  I truly believe that what you have researched here really is the cutting edge of this condition, crisis, malady, phase or whatever it's referred to in different circles.  Few realize that the concepts here are really upper-level psychological processes that the medical and social fields really know embarrassingly little about.  Even the professionals I've encountered who do know about this attach a much quicker timeline as well as a higher rate of success for the spouse who chooses to stand for their marriage.

My goal has never been anything other than to help those along who are struggling, and I would say that looking back I have a pretty decent track record of doing so.  I don't recall ever telling someone on their own thread that they should give up or that their situation is hopeless, even though there are some who I feel have little reason to hope barring a miracle.  I try to focus on what they should be happy with and encourage them to follow their heart and be true to themselves.  I am known for adding humor in when I feel it is welcome or needed, although my sense of humor sometimes borders on the juvenile end (right, WP?) or may be son inane that few even get the joke.  I don't understand the "heckler" comment, so I would appreciate it if you would elaborate.  And as for why I seem unable to follow my own advice at times?  Well, as I said previously I'm in the same boat as everyone else.  My world has been rocked, as has the world my children live in.  We are all suffering but overall I feel that I'm doing a pretty good job of holding things together despite dealing with intense pain at times.  My S7 hasn't missed a day of school and has been selected for the gifted program, and my D11 is an honor student who is a leader in her class.  D19 works several hours a week and attends college full-time and has never been in any trouble at all.  Not bad for a single/ solo dad if I do say so myself.  I have not only found my footing at work but excelled to a point where I'm being looked at for a promotion just two short months after I was almost cut due to being a liability.  I cannot help the pain I am in as I worry about everything falling apart and having no safety net whatsoever, as well as looking at the possibility of living the remainder of my days separate from the woman who I have made my sacred vows to.  I believe mine is a Covenant Marriage (thanks LC and CFL!) and do not believe I could move on to another woman without enduring guilt as long as my W is living as the teaching of my church and my own belief is that "What God has joined no man can tear asunder."

On my own thread, or on this one which I hoped to create as an open forum for the influx of LTers as well as the wonderful people who were already here, I have been more frank and honest and willing to express my true feelings of despair even though some are turned off by it.  I speak from my heart, as I have learned to do in counseling, and do not sugarcoat.  When I am happy and optimistic it is reflected in my posts and I will show up in others to encourage them.  When I am in despair and feeling hopeless about my sitch, I post on my own thread and avoid others as I don't want to be fake or contradict myself if at all possible. 

I am intrigued by your comment about my influence, as I would greatly like your suggestions on how I could better help those on here who are in greatest need.  Helping others is therapeutic to me as well and part of my character trait of altruism (or so I would like to believe).  I'm open for suggestions and will PM you the examples I mentioned as soon as I can track down the posts.  Thank you again for taking the time to peruse and respond to my posts, and again thank you for all you do.

Peace to you all.