[Dontgiveup]

Question - If a spouse's mlc has nothing to do with you, the LBSer, which I've heard alot.  Then why would the same thing happen in another relationship if the LBSer does not do the mirror work?  Are you saying the LBSer is somehow responsible for the MLC... and this would carry over to another relationship??

Hobo.....here is some insight on your question from RCR article "Why Stand?"

It is not merely for the purpose of salvaging your marriage, but for learning to communicate and deal with this situation. Communicating with an MLCer--or a non-MLC walk-away spouse--with the intent of rebuilding and healing teaches you how to handle your next relationship. It forces you to look at yourself and find where you need to make changes. Your spouse's affair and MLC are not your fault, but you were not perfect and can always find place for growth and improvement.

[Shantilly Lace]

MLC is not your fault, them walking out is not your fault.
But you were not perfect, this does not mean it is yur fault.  It means you can look at yourself and see what you weren't really happy with, what you had buried of yourself, how you had moved into a rut of behaviour.  things sometimes that the MLC say sting and they may be something that has a truth in them, not the whole truth but a kernel of it.  the things that stung most I had to look at most.  And as I made changes to what I wasn't happy with my spirituality came to the fore.

Who knew?

I believed in stuff, but it gets stronger and stronger within me.  And beliefs that I had once have come back.  I am more what I was.  Strange, life  loving, believing in magic and love and so much more.  I am becoming... me
i m happy, and becoming happier, it has nothing to do with Dearheart it is all about me.  If he wishes to join me great, if not oh well I will become what I am meant to be.
Things just keep getting better.

[NoRegrets]

Right after BD people kept saying to me that I needed a therapist and I put them off. Didn't need it. This website was my therapy, to help me understand my H.

But now that I need to focus on my own issues, I wonder if there is a sort of checklist of questions we should be asking ourselves? 

[HeartsBlessing]

HB - Thanks for your detailed post.   Like Rider, I have a lot of the same questions - so you answer to him is an answer to me.

You wrote - I say this because if you don't do the mirror work required of you, you will go through this again with someone else...

Question - If a spouse's mlc has nothing to do with you, the LBSer, which I've heard alot.  Then why would the same thing happen in another relationship if the LBSer does not do the mirror work?  Are you saying the LBSer is somehow responsible for the MLC... and this would carry over to another relationship??

And what mirror work are we talking about?  I certainly have flaws, and will work on improving, as a person...  but I dont think it some special spiritual journey I must take.

Dear Hobo,


Read the article I wrote below. It can also be found in the self focus section of the board, BUT it should answer any questions you may have, and if you have more, ask them, I'll answer when I can.

The LBS Journey.
« Reply #24 on: October 14, 2010, 11:45:17 PM »
By HeartsBlessing


Now, each newbie needs to read this; whether you think you need to change or not...every marriage has had its problems; and IF lives and marriages were perfect; there would be NO reason or need for the MLC.

But since NO ONE'S life OR marriage is perfect; and every last one of us has our faults and foibles...the journey needs to be walked to wholeness and healing by each and every one.

If you think you don't need to grow and change; I will tell you now, you are not being totally honest with yourself and are within deep DENIAL; and it is NOT the river in Egypt. 

If you don't grow and change, you are hurting no one but yourself...as IF you don't recognize flaws within you; you will take these same problems into another relationship; and get to do it ALL over again...even if it's within the SAME relationship.

You will recycle your lessons until they are learned, or until you die; your choice.

The Bomb Drop you received, regardless of what form you received it in, represents a 'wake up' call to action...when your MLC spouse put you upon a path that was NOT of your own making; he/she made it all about YOU, the LBS; just as the crisis is all about THEM.

The two of you are on separate paths, whether you like it or not.

Even AFTER you finish learning the lessons of a lifetime; your spouse's MLC is the trigger for ongoing growth and change that will last the rest of your life.

I have been out of this for a long time, and I'm still growing and changing; looking deep within myself from time to time to see how I'm coming along...this will continue until I die.

I began by recognizing the need to walk this journey around three months after the bomb got dropped on me, so long ago. I wasn't perfect; it was time for me to grow up and become what God meant for me to be.   I also had damage from my childhood AND my marriage to face and heal; and you will need to do this, also.    Whatever you don't understand, just ask about; there is always someone here who is at one place or the other in their journey.

Some are far ahead, and some are just getting started.....we are here to help you however you need help in understanding what you must do to grow up within your spouse's MLC. 

With that said, here we go.

Each person takes this journey as an INDIVIDUAL. There are no right or wrong ways to take this journey.
What's important is that it's taken, in its entirety. The only place you cannot start, is at the end, LOL, as you will not know what the ending is, until you reach it.(A little humor to brighten things up.)

Unfortunately, I don't remember any kind of roadmap to start you out...I've suggested the "Mirror of self-honesty"; it is as good a place to start as any, it will help you to begin seeing yourselves as you really are within.
Being honest with yourself is VERY important; it is the only way to changing whichever areas that need change within you.

Remember, it's NO ONE's place to judge you for what you see and reveal to whomever you choose to use as a sounding board(this is someone you can trust and talk to that can help you put these things into perspective).

Also remember that the answers are contained within YOU, no one can "give" them to you...and if you think you can't find them, well, you just haven't "tapped" them yet.

Above all, don't be afraid..this is not a test where you score for how well you do. You can take as much time as you need to complete this path.
But it must be done.


Attitude is important; don't take this journey in the hopes you'll get your spouse back.
This is for YOU, not them...they should NOT be in the picture you're looking at of yourself. This is an INDIVIDUAL journey; just as your MLC'er/WAS is on a journey that is all about them, this is all about YOU.

One of the best things in this life, is to come through the journey the LBS spouse takes, learns the lessons of life, fixes the things within that are wrong with THEMSELVES, and come out on the other side, whole, and healed.

They know within themselves in the end, without the shadow of a doubt that they are and will be all right regardless of what their MLC'er does, the marriage comes back together or not, or even the twists and turns that life may take in the future.

Life, when it comes down to it, is nothing BUT one big problem to be solved, and solve it you will, as you live each day of your life. You will, when you come through, carry the tools needed to do this once your journey is completed.

How to get there? That's NOT a one size fits all answer. Each person's journey is different,tailored to the individual themselves...no one can "tell" you what to do; or how to do it.

You just do it, and it starts by looking deep within yourself.....


You've just been bombed; you're lost and afraid. The person you've given your life to, has betrayed you, abandoned you, says they don't love you anymore, or give you the speech of "I Love you, but am not in love with you". When you ask them why, they tell you they don't know, or blame you with every bad thing they are feeling...and it is hard NOT take them seriously.

You're uncertain what the future will hold, and that is a normal feeling..but you don't think it's normal. These things should not be happening, you think to yourself.
You want strength, but can't seem to find it. You can't eat, sleep, nor seem to get away from depression.
The fallout is everywhere, there is thick dust you can't seem to see through.

Eventually, you reach out for help as things do not seem to be coming back together as you'd hoped they would.

What you meet is a group of individuals going through the SAME thing; they tell you it's "MLC", it's NOT your fault, and furthermore, begin to try and get you to see that you must go through what you perceive is more pain and suffering; and you don't want that.
You want a "quick fix", you want your life back, you want your spouse to look at you like they used to.

I've got a newsflash for you:
You're NOT going to get that; when your spouse went into the tunnel; your marriage and your life, as you knew and saw it, DIED.
Get it? It's dead, as in not coming back ever again, burned to the ashes, GONE.

All the crying, begging, pleading, clinging, demanding...all destructive behaviors will NOT help to fix anything.
They will only cause MORE damage, as disrespect from the MLC'er will ONLY increase.

One thing you need to worry about as the dust from the fallout settles, is protecting yourself from the MLC'er if he/she is financially irresponsible..you may think this doesn't have anything to do with this journey, but you're wrong.

This is the FIRST thing you DO need to learn..protect yourself from those who would hurt you.
A firmly set boundary in the financial area alone for now, is very important; if you do NOT have money to support yourself and your family, you will go bankrupt, and lose everything material that is necessary.

The MLC'er is NOT going to be responsible, so YOU have to be..formulate a plan, and stick with it; ESPECIALLY if there is an OW/OM involved. Neither needs your money, YOU DO.

The next thing I suggest, if you need to, see a doctor, and get a physical. Why? Because MLC takes its toll on you, and YOU are important..if need be, get some anti-depressants or something of that nature, to calm you down so you can begin to cope with what's happened. Your mind will need to be clear, as when you "get it" you will begin the journey within yourself.

Looking within yourself is one of the HARDEST things anyone can do or ever will do. I can't tell you where to start, as everyone is different, but you can start by looking in the mirror of self-honesty; UNCOVER that mirror and look hard. Anyone who says they have NEVER made ANY mistakes in their lives is LYING to themselves AND to everyone else who knows and loves them.

Be prepared to "sort" out what you see with someone you trust who understands what you are doing. A Sounding Board is really important, someone who will be honest, and straightforward; helping you to begin see the areas of change that are needed within you; also they can help you effect those changes, making them permanent.
This is important work on yourself; DON'T NEGLECT IT, don't skip over it, thinking it's not important.

In time, as you progress, you will see yourself as you really are, seeing some VERY hurtful things, things you will NOT like.


Are you still fighting the fact, that you will need to take this necessary introspection after reading this far?
I can tell you something from experience: You're only hurting YOURSELF,not anyone else; this is where the "Control lesson" one of the MOST important lessons in this life, comes into play.

The only person we can control in this life is OURSELVES, not anyone else. The MLC'er did his/her damage, sure, BUT, you cannot help him/her; accept that you can only help yourself.
That means taking the focus, such as it is, OFF the MLC'er, and putting it on YOU as the important person.

As time passes on, and you learn about YOU, beginning to fix the areas within you that need to be fixed, you will CHANGE. And for the better, NOT worse. You'll gain strength, understanding, confidence, and patience from this walk down the path toward a better YOU.

Read self help books, talk to the people on this board, do more things for yourself. Get a life that's separate from the MLC'er; get on with it..time won't stand still because this has happened; it marches on just like it always has. Don't waste it in "pity parties" or wishing for the MLC'er to come back, nor spend any more time grieving than you'll need to in order to accept this major "death" in your life...things have CHANGED, and you'll need to change right along with it.

You'll find, given time, that happiness is NOT found in another person, it is found WITHIN ourselves.

This is a PROCESS, not only a journey; and as you effect the changes within, people WILL see these changes, even the MLC'er that left you behind. Most importantly, they will affect the reactions of others toward you.

Taken properly, in time, it will no longer matter to you if your marriage makes it or doesn't, you'll find that YOU have grown stronger, see more clearly; most of all you'll know within your heart, that you WILL make it, regardless of what happens. If your marriage rebuilds itself, AND the MLC'er makes all the necessary changes he/she must make as well, it will be a bonus.

You'll find you don't really need another to "complete" you; you'll be complete within yourself, regardless.

And you'll begin to deal on your own terms, as a more mature individual for what you've done within YOU.

This is NOT a "magic pill" designed to solve ALL your problems, but it will help you cope with ongoing problems, not just in the MLC.

This process will take, TIME, you'll suffer PAIN, sometimes you will feel GUILT..other times you will feel SHAME. Don't run from them, EMBRACE them, as your attitude will be most important. You're not alone, others have gone this same route, walked this same road toward healing, and wholeness.

It is most important that when you accept all the mistakes you've made, make all the necessary changes, that really NEED to be permanent, that you FORGIVE, not only the MLC'er and anyone else who has hurt you, but YOURSELF.

Take each day as it comes, one day at a time, one step at a time, be kind to yourself, you're human, and not immune to making mistakes.

Again, this journey is for YOU, and ONLY YOU.

This is the journey of a lifetime, an opportunity for YOU, take it, and make the most of it.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2010, 01:49:54 AM by OldPilot »

[hobo1]

Thank you, HB, the post answered my questions.
I know I have faults, and things I can work on.  Some of the faults were mentioned by MLCer that these were reasons for D.  I know they should not be, they are not 'divorcable offenses'.

But nevertheless, things to work on.

Another question I have is do most MLCers 'know' they are going through something?  or do they just think this is normal...  and it's perfectly OK to do and say the things they do.

My MLCer does seem less 'irrational' that some I've read, but do they 'know' it's not normal?

[Shantilly Lace]

Pft,
 so many on here say my MLCer seems less irrational, more sure, they are far more stubborn, and so on.

I knew something was wrong with me at first I felt I was going crazy,  and then when I ran I felt immediately better, it wasn't me, it was h.  And then it crept in and I had to seek help.  (I was PND) and still i ran even tough I knew it wasn't Derheart but I tried.  And then I wanted to come back and still I ran.  I knew I was not right but still I tried to run.

they know, they may deny for a long while but they know.

[Dontgiveup]

Another question I have is do most MLCers 'know' they are going through something?  or do they just think this is normal...  and it's perfectly OK to do and say the things they do.

Here is some insight on your question from RCR's MLC Overview article
There are many who witness the Cycling and Chaotic behaviour and conclude that Midlifers know exactly what they are doing. Since the behaviour cycles, there are pockets of rationale and clarity. Some are able to compartmentalize their lives, functioning at work and other activities away from the home. It is not that the Midlifers do not care, but rather that they must shield themselves from caring. They feel they must do whatever it is they are doing even when internally admitting it is wrong. They steel themselves emotionally; but they are not without guilt; rather I believe that for many it is the opposite. Their guilt is so immense that the burden is overwhelming. They are running from the demons within themselves and from the burdening reminders of guilt from the spouse, whether she is actively laying guilt or not. In addition, OWs add guilt by forcing responsibility for their happiness and success on the midlifer, and then by punishing him when he cycles between her and his wife.

Midlifers are not always aware of their actions. There is an awareness within each moment, but a global absence of awareness; this only becomes clear later. Driven by emotions, Midlifers are moment and self focused and often unable to link consequences and understand the relation of their behaviour to the external world. Their memory becomes fuzzy; though they may be aware of their actions during each present moment, in clarity they may not recall what takes place during fog and vice versa.

Large chunks of time are holistically blank. There may be a memory of certain events within those chunks, but the external relation to the world is lost. Events are not linked solidly to other things and thus may have no chronological placement. Time is a tangled string that rather than linear.

[Rollercoasterider]

If I am sticking to my schedule and don’t cave to the urge to visit, this should be my last post before I go on vacation. I may have some time tomorrow—but you know we’ve got a SuperBowl party to go to. I should be on the computer finalizing my list of houses to visit with the realtor and so I may pop in…but really I am telling my self I’m not supposed to!

This thread has quickly become an all-star game, with STP and HeartsBlessing both chiming in. It kind of reminds me of when Hulk Hogan first met Ric Flair and Flair had the WCW title with him.
If you're saying 5-7 years then that would be in line with peri and/or a transition but does that whole time have to be crisis?

Others have answered no to this. I don’t disagree with their explanations, but I would not answer no. Why? Language.
All squares are rectangles.
All rectangles are not squares.
All Midlife Crises are Midlife Transitions.
All Midlife Transitions are not Midlife Crises.

HeartsBlessing said that a transition can morph to a crisis, but it cannot go back. What that means in how I explain it is that a crisis-level transition does not goes back to being a non-crisis-level transition. But the tern transition applies to both, the crisis is a type of transition.

Great post but I REALLY think you misunderstood me on a couple things. …I never said that the hormonal part came from you. Even though I'm typing this in my phone, I don't understand how you read it that way.

I read it that way too. Maybe it was direct, maybe implied, but that’s what I thought you were saying.

You know, I'm not one to push religion, honestly, but you will hear me speak of the Lord many times; I'm a believer who believes but that does NOT "color" what I see in people.

Really? Because that sort of phrase can be taken another way—a positive way! Maybe your faith is why you color people beautiful.
Religion is a beautiful thing, but we are human and we so often use it to judge others while self-righteously inflating ourselves that when we talk of it, sometimes we talk of how our religion doesn’t affect or influence our view of people—because the idea is that it would have a negative influence. And sadly people use it to pain people ugly—but it just reflects back.
But HeartsBlessing, I know you pain people with beautiful and I think that it is a God-Brush in your hand.

It would seem to me that many, if not the large majority of relationship examples I've seen have occurred with in-home MLC'ers. Regardless of their severity, for some reason they do not seem capable (emotionally, financially, whatever) to leave.

It seems to me that female MLCers are more likely than males to stay at home, so it could be that your sample experience is with more male LBSs and their female MLCers.

Now there has been debate and speculation that men tend to move on more quickly. Some speculate they are not as often burdened by the lion's share child custody. Others speculate that men are really more committed to the relationship, while women tend to emotionally attach to the next OM and are less likely to turn back. Many also say that the LBS men have simply moved on to a new woman, thus closing the chance for relationship. Finally, they say the majority of posters tend to be LBS women, and therefore the relationship success stories are skewed due to the over proportionate representation on sites like this. Probably all are correct.

Women file for 67% of divorces. A few may be Standers or LBSs who don’t know they don’t have to file or got tired of Standing, but I do believe that most of those 67% are woman who want the divorce. Men and women have different ways of coping as well as different ways of socializing and relating. So I think maybe this sort of forum has more women because it is more in line with how women relate and socialize with each other. I don’t know, just speculating.
Also, men marry more frequently and sooner after divorce than women. This could be about men moving on faster, or it could be about men avoiding being the growth and healing of recovering and needing a relationship (needy type of needing). Maybe women wait until they are more ready. I don’t know, just food thought.

I've yet to see any significant evidence of long term abandonment by women MLCers resulting in relationship with LBS husbands; especially once the divorce is finalized.
…Here's my dilemma, and all due respect in that I've only been at this 13 months since BD ...If the chances for LBS men that have been abandoned by their wife's has the worst chance of relationship, then this knowledge is important for many of us in deciding in what manner to move on with our lives (standing, file and complete divorce, ultimately find a new person and start a new life).
…I do want to be realistic about my odds of success and this will factor heavily in how I detach, and how will be my vision of my future (dating, etc.).
…So, to summarize ... in-home woman MLCer v. long term runway woman MLCer? My guess is that the odds of success are seriously stacked against the latter.

I don’t like to talk about statistics. But admittedly one reason is because I agree with you.
I think the odds are better for reconciliation if the MLCer is at-home, low energy (that usually goes with being at-home) or if they are a Clinging Boomerang—supposing the LBS learns what to do as a Stander. I don’t like to say that too emphatically because it’s not something I have any peer-reviewed data to support and more importantly I don’t want to destroy or even damage the Hope of LBS whose MLCers are not one of those types. But the reality is that most LBSs here will probably not reconcile with their spouses.

But the goal is that through the support and education we offer, we will gradually increase those odds of reconciliation. So right now it may the odds may be stacked against, but as we all learn the best ways to Stand and interact with MLCers and focus on Self, we will have more and more reconciliation success stories. And that may be contagious because when there are few successes there are higher doubts; so when you friend reaches reconciliation, you may have an easier time believing you can or will too.

As for how you detach… There is a difference between a connection and an attachment. Connection is healthy, attachment…not so much. I consider the connection something that can be sustained on an emotional and spiritual level while the MLCer is in full nutcase mode because the connection is with the core person—or what some might call the Higher Self. Attachment is about how your MLCer’s actions and emotions and cycling … control your actions, emotions and cycling… Are you reactionary or responsive? Given the context of your comment, I think you may actually be talking about connection rather than detachment.

I have read that women are more certain when they walk-away. They file for divorce more often and they may have been considering divorce for years. I’m not talking about MLC, just women in general. They wanted their marriage to improve, but eventually they gave up and lost their drive to influence and even ask for change. The time to worry is when your wife stops nagging or complaining; that is an indicator that she no longer believes change will happen. At first she thinks she’s just settling and accepting that this is what marriage is, but this the beginning of her plans to leave.

Women may be more independent than men. They function better alone than men—divorced men have shorter lifespans than married men, but that is not true of divorced women. Can anyone think of MLCer women who are Clinging Boomerangs?
The contact types are not meant to be psychological types. But the Clinging subtype of Boomerangs is more about psychology that frequency of contact. Clinging Boomerangs are needy. It seems to me that few leaving women are needy—or at least they do not come across as needy.
Guys, what are your thoughts on this?

… if you don't do the mirror work required of you, you will go through this again with someone else...you see, if you do the necessary work, and take the journey spoken of, you will make a much better choice of partner the next time around if you choose to this path to take.

Question - If a spouse's MLC has nothing to do with you, the LBSer, which I've heard a lot.  Then why would the same thing happen in another relationship if the LBSer does not do the mirror work?  Are you saying the LBSer is somehow responsible for the MLC... and this would carry over to another relationship??
And what mirror work are we talking about? I certainly have flaws, and will work on improving, as a person...  but I don’t think it’s some special spiritual journey I must take.

I can’t speak for HeartsBlessing, but I’ll give my answer. She’s not saying your next wife will also have an MLC and leave you or that you will have a pattern for finding and dating/marrying women who are having or will have an MLC. Sure, we have patterns like some people are attracted to alcoholics and yet they can’t tell the person is an alcoholic at first. There is some sort of energy or attractive force that they subconsciously read—I’m not trying to sound airy-fairy, I just don’t know how to describe it. It’s a bit if Imago Therapy (Harville Hendrix) which in my mind distills to we marry our issues, or we marry the person best suited to bring our issues to the surface.
But I don’t think that’s what HeartsBlessing was saying. It’s more basic than that. Second marriages have a much higher failure rate than first marriages. Why? People don’t do their mirror work. They don’t give themselves time to figure out what happened, change, heal and keep changing. Mirror-Work isn’t about a spiritual journey. It’s simply acknowledging your flaws and learning more positive and functional coping skills.

I see that HeartsBlessing responded already. I’m sorry don’t have time to read it in detail. I was actually supposed to use part of my time at the computer to review the houses before going downstairs for my exercise and I instead spent it reading this thread! But it was fun.

[Thundarr]

Such an incredible amount of knowledge in one place, almost like a Think Tank or something.  Based on HB and others' well-documented beliefs (along with my own), it could be alleged that all of us coming here is no accident.  Something to think about.

I have a question for all, and I believe all here are familiar with my sitch.  My W left and took next to nothing with her, leaving me the house along with all our mutual possessions and having the kids at least part of each day and 5 nights a week.  She has really been connecting with them lately and expressed concern the other morning for the fact that our house is in foreclosure and pledged to do whatever I needed her to in order to save the house.  Tonight she dropped off S7 and we discussed it, and she asked me what I needed from her and where to sign.  She will get the things together to be faxed on Monday, and we will go to get our taxes done jointly later in the week.  She has followed through on everything she has said, and chose to have D11 spend the night with her along with D19.  This will be either the 5th or 6th week in a row in which she has stayed at home all weekend and spent it with at least one of the kids.  She follows through on everything she tells them she is going to do to the best of my memory.

Tonight she brought up the fact that the circus is coming to the city next weekend and I mentioned, out of habit, "we" could take the kids.  She told me the ticket prices and mentioned we could split them.  She said she was thinking "we" could go if I would drive as she does not like driving the city.  I'm presuming she means driving her car and that would be only the second time I ever have since she bought it nine months ago.  The first time was on our anniversary and that was because she was too drunk/ sleepy to drive.  That was two weeks after BD and 1 week before she moved to the living room.  It was also 1 week before we slept together for the last time.

I told her I had scheduled a vacation for the kids Spring Break and told her I wanted to take them somewhere, probably the Smokies.  She mentioned how nice it would be there and how she would like to go, so I casually mentioned that she should ask for that week off.  She stated that she would and that she would have to wait until Monday to find out.  She seemed genuinely excited to go.  She actually stayed for awhile and we talked about school and our favorite shows.  She has begun watching our favorite shows again after having stopped for several months post-BD.  We had several laughs and lots of eye contact.  The only semi-odd thing is when I asked her if she remembered something about me (trivial) and she gave me a "why would I?" look and said she didn't.  Then it was back to normal and remained that way.

Now, here's where I am in my journey.  I realize this means absolutely nothing.  It may be a touch and go but who knows if it is even that.  I read nothing into it as she doesn't show any signs of wanting to be anything more than friends.  What I have accepted is that I will be happy with just being her friend from here on out if that is what comes of this.  The worst thing she has done to me is to break my heart, and I have to proof of a PA or an active OM at any time throughout this.  In truth, I am not hurt that badly and have it nowhere near as bad as some here do.  Most of the hurt I feel I have brought upon myself with my continued insistence on figuring out what is going on and obsessing over the absurdity of it all.  I'm not completely past that yet but I'm getting there.  For some reason a revelation came to me while W was here and it had nothing to do with her at the time.  As I looked around the living room I realized that I did not really make decisions equally with her.  In truth, I should have consulted with her more and have resolved to change that as best I can by being more open-minded with what not only she has to say but also others in my life.  I will practice that change next weekend when we go to the circus (and she did mention our favorite restaurant coincidentally and I brought up going there since we will be up there anyway).  It will not be about me, but about the kids and regardless of what she says or does that day I will remain the father I want them to have.

So, my question to HB and all is whether or not I'm doing wrong by choosing to go ahead and be her friend.  My training would definitely reinforce the belief that partners must be friends first and foremost, but as I've said many times rules sometimes don't apply in this.  My logic is not only my training but the fact that she IS still being a parent (limited and under my supervision, granted) and is not subjecting me to outright abuse or an OM at this time at least.  I've heard several say that she has to "miss me" and having us do family things together would certainly lessen that, but can it really hurt if I steel myself to prevent a cycle down? 

[summer progress]

Women may be more independent than men. They function better alone than men—divorced men have shorter lifespans than married men, but that is not true of divorced women. Can anyone think of MLCer women who are Clinging Boomerangs?
Guys, what are your thoughts on this?

I am not a "guy," but Rebel has what I have labeled an "UBER CLINGER."

  Summer

EDIT - Also MOC may fit this category IMHO - Oldpilot