[stayed]

And what if you're in R in the MLC'er doesn't get to remorse?  Should the LBS'er question the validity of the R? Can R even happen without remorse?

Question it?  Oh my, yes!  How could you not question it?  Question everything about your life, your marriage, your partnership, yourself! 

Personally, I don't think a relationship can exist!  No regret!  No true remorse!  What is there to rebuild on?  What does a couple really have?  No remorse, no empathy!  No empathy, no relationship!  No remorse, no empathy,  breeds resentment, anger, bitterness!  Resentment, anger, bitterness, destroys love, prevents joy, pleasure and happiness from being a part of your life.  Takes over your "SOUL".

What do you have without a soul?  Misery!   

Just my opinion, mind you!

hugs Stayed

[Doc Hudson]

And what if you're in R in the MLC'er doesn't get to remorse?  Should the LBS'er question the validity of the R? Can R even happen without remorse?

Question it?  Oh my, yes!  How could you not question it?  Question everything about your life, your marriage, your partnership, yourself! 

Personally, I don't think a relationship can exist!  No regret!  No true remorse!  What is there to rebuild on?  What does a couple really have?  No remorse, no empathy!  No empathy, no relationship!  No remorse, no empathy,  breeds resentment, anger, bitterness!  Resentment, anger, bitterness, destroys love, prevents joy, pleasure and happiness from being a part of your life.  Takes over your "SOUL".

What do you have without a soul?  Misery!   

Just my opinion, mind you!

hugs Stayed

I couldn't agree more.

[Sassyone]

Stayed is 100% correct Gallagher.  People get to remorse when they face and see everything and on their own timeline.  It didn't happen overnight for my H and cetainly not when he first got home.  Remember they are processing EVERYTHING and somethings slower than others.  They process things individually.  So your H is processing what his identity is, who he is, what HIS marriage is, etc. . . . This process is a solo journey at times and yes it is all about their overwhelming depression.  MLC is the depression of all depression  . . . they processess everything about themselves.  Hugs, stay strong and listen to that smart pastor of yours.  Remember God only gives you what you can handle, same with your H, so perhaps God is spoon feeding him right now until he gets stronger.

Hugs girlie,

Sassy

[HeyJude]

Hi..thought i would continue here with the Terrence Real theme again as really enjoying his book "I don't want to talk about it" ..how i would love family therapy with this guy! As Kikki mentioned it is Father's Day here tomorrow, for the past two years i haven't really thought about acknowledging it to my H..to remind him he has been a great dad. He probably thinks he still is, so i don't really know what to say in the end.. I guess i felt so disappointed in his lack of action to turn around and face us, be remorseful to me and his sons. To look into his deep troubles/depression. To seek help. To look at his own relationship with his father. Maybe to understand what he has inherited and what he doesn't want to pass on. Once again, i am tempted to send to him, but i know...what's the point.
So this from Terrence Real

"Healing the Legacy"
Through the mechanism of carried shame and carried feellings, the unresolved pain of previous generations operates in families like emotional debt. We either face it or we leverage our children with it. When a man stands up to depression, the site of his battle may be inside his own head, but the struggle he wages has repercussions far beyond him. A man who transforms the internalized voice of contempt resists violence lying close to the heart of patriarchy itself. Such a man serves as a breakwall. The waves of pain that may have wreaked havoc across generations spill over to him and lose their virulent force - sparing his children. The "difficult repentance" such a man undertakes protects those who follow him. And his healing is a spiritual gift to those who came before.  The reclaimed lost boy such a man discovers - the unearthed emotional, creative part of him - may not be merely the child of his own youth, but the lost  child of his father's youth, or even of his father's father.

Each man is a bridge, spanning in his lifetime all of the images and traditions about masculinity inherited from past generations and bestowing - or inflicting - his own retelling of the tale on those who ensue. Unresolved depression often passes from father to son, despite the father's best intentions, like a toxic unacknowledged patrimony. Conversely, when a man transforms the internalized discourse of violence, he does more than relieve his own depression. He breaks the chain, interrupting the path of depression's transmission to the next generation. Recovery transforms legacies.

When a depressed man has trouble remembering why he should follow 'the dark path', take up the arduous work of recovery, I ask him about his relationship to his father. And then i ask about his own kids.
"Do the work," I often say to such a man. "Face this pain now, or pass it on to your children, just as it was passed on to you."
Virtually every depressed man I have worked with knows what I am speaking about.....like the great adventurers of old, they are willing to descend to the depths and encounter their monsters. They want to be better fathers than they had. they want the legacy of physical or psychological violence to stop.

[What Next]

Hey Jude,

Your posts have inspired me to read more from and about Terence Real.  I wish he was available globally for counselling!!

Thanks for posting again.  For years I would listen to my brother talk about 'breaking the chains of generations' and to my shame I never understood his struggle.  My brother was/is an alcoholic.  We had long suspected that my Dad, now 88, was/is a functioning alcoholic.  There was no physical violence in our family but despite being the only boy my brother had absolutely no relationship with my Dad and emotionally this was always very telling.  I guess through ignorance my mother dealt with it by overcompensating and doting on her son which only served to drive my Dad further away.

My brother has a 10yr old boy of his own now and in many ways I see him work very hard at their relationship, he is attentive and encouraging but he can also be emotionally aloof (much like my Dad).  I think my brother broke or weakened the chains a little, I will share the following with him to encourage him even further along. 

The "difficult repentance" such a man undertakes protects those who follow him. And his healing is a spiritual gift to those who came before.  The reclaimed lost boy such a man discovers - the unearthed emotional, creative part of him - may not be merely the child of his own youth, but the lost  child of his father's youth, or even of his father's father.

Unfortunately, much as I would love to share this with my H, I don't think H will relate it to himself or the damage he is inflicting on our Ds.  So I actively work with Ds in the hope that not only will they understand the FOO issues that might drive both their parents' behaviour at times but to also help them to start to heal from the damage H and I have inflicted.  I genuinely would call this journey of mine a success story if my Ds manage to break one or two links in that chain for themselves and their future families.

X

[Trustandlove]

WN, my feelings exactly.  I have stated over and over again that the rot stops here -- I will do everything I can to NOT pass on my own hurt and pain to my children, as it was passed on to me by my parents.  I know that book talks about men, but in my case it seems to be me it speaks to. 

I have talked to H about this, about how we need to not pass this kind of mess on; I know that in MLC there is little point, but do believe that on some level it does go in.  The only frame of reference for that that I have is my own experience 30 years ago, when I was behaving badly and not listening to anyone -- people would tell me things like this and I would discount them, but in the end they DID go in. 

The conversations I've had with my mother recently just confirmed to me how much was passed on to her by her own parents, and how she passed it on to us.  My father does it as well....  and I just want it to STOP.

Ironically, until BD H always was a staunch believer in this, and constantly said that we'd never break up, we'd never have a broken family, and so on and so on. 

[hummingbird]

I love the initial post on guilt versus remorse.  It helped me understand my W's actions since BD in July 2011.   

I feel as if every time we have contact now, she has some feelings left for me but contact also reminds her of her guilt.  This confirms for her that she does not love me, she denies having feelings for me and she thinks that she just feels guilt. 

Lately, I have been as dim as possible with her.  (She is with OW. We are lesbians)  I feel like it is good for me to be dim due to my own anger right now and I am working on processing and releasing those feelings.  But I also wonder if my absence will perhaps give her the opportunity, when/if she is ever ready, to not equate me with "causing" her guilt but to realize the guilt as her own. 

Any thoughts or advice on that?  Thank you!!! 

[kikki]

Hi Hummingbird
Welcome to the forum that no one wants to be a member of, but that we are all grateful to have found anyway.
Sorry you are also dealing with MLC. 

Have you read RCR's articles?

This is a link to her series on contact levels.  Hope it helps.  Do you want to start your own thread and tell us more of your story?
http://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/standing-actions_contact-and-communication_contact-levels.html

[OldPilot]

I love the initial post on guilt versus remorse.  It helped me understand my W's actions since BD in July 2011.   

I feel as if every time we have contact now, she has some feelings left for me but contact also reminds her of her guilt.  This confirms for her that she does not love me, she denies having feelings for me and she thinks that she just feels guilt. 

Lately, I have been as dim as possible with her.  (She is with OW. We are lesbians)  I feel like it is good for me to be dim due to my own anger right now and I am working on processing and releasing those feelings.  But I also wonder if my absence will perhaps give her the opportunity, when/if she is ever ready, to not equate me with "causing" her guilt but to realize the guilt as her own. 

Any thoughts or advice on that?  Thank you!!!

HEY look who posted!
Glad you could join us here. 

P.S. How about that Yankee game last night.     

[stayed]

Hummingbird, delighted to see you posting.  It has always amazed me how much guilt and shame is misunderstood.  I guess we must think of it in the sense of being little children and how our parents could "guilt" us into doing the right thing.  Seems to work really well with little people, probably because we are so dependent on our parents and we are afraid they will not LOVE us any more, if we do not make them proud.  Guilt and shame, certainly doesn't have that same effect on "adults". Instead it actually increases their anger and resentment, which results in them spewing monster, indifference, cruelty whatever angst they are experiencing onto the people who have stood by them.

I am ever hopeful that MLC will be better understood someday.  Humans always resist what they DO NOT UNDERSTAND!  Especially something, that does not show up on an x-ray, a blood test, a urine sample...  .  I believe forums like RCR's Hero's, will change that.  All kinds of things were kept in the closet  when I was a child, retarded children, emotionally disturbed people, alcoholism, drug addiction, heck even MENOPAUSE was discussed only by "old women" when I was a girl.  Now, all that is out in the open.  Taboo topics are routinely discussed at the supper table and long overdue. 

I am convinced MLC will become another topic that will be an accepted condition.  With understanding, knowledge, awareness, families that were once left devastated will get assistance, perhaps even PROTECTION, as the unreliability and inconsistencies of an MLCer become more commonly understood.  Hopefully, more LBS (let's be special, Bewildered renamed it) will quietly and calmly understand what their once "devoted" partner is going through and more willingly use the time to strengthen themselves, help their children to understand and grow from the experience, as they themselves will.  Openly, honestly, assess their options and better able to choose the best course of action for themselves and their family.  STANDING because they feel it is the right thing to do, not because they fear what their lives might or might not be like without their partner.  Decide without fear of financial destruction and hopefully maintain a civil relationship with each other, whatever the outcome.  Resulting in less damage, all round.

Understanding, that guilt and shame will not HELP bring your spouse to his / her senses.  In fact, will probably send them running, faster and further away, casting hell and damnation on you, as they depart, is a huge step forward for the LBS's personal growth and eventual recovery.

hugs Stayed