Midlife Crisis: Support for Left Behind Spouses
Archives => Archived Topics => Topic started by: Acorn on November 17, 2019, 08:45:34 AM
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The answer for myself is, yes.
It was necessary for me to ditch the MLC angle in order to be able to heal and march forward.
How about you?
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Definitely. Six years of feeling sorry for him and making it easier for the kids’ sake. Kept me from detaching big style xxx
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For me, I don't think so. I kind of look at things both ways at the same time? Yet I find the lens very, very useful.
My MLCer has started to reach out in ways he had not before and is showing moments of clarity. It all fits the lens. I can see at least a few ways I could have reacted/responded unproductively if I didn't have that viewpoint and LBS training.
It could be that the lens is most helpful earlier on and becomes less so as MLC merges into just "real" life? I'm not even 2 years in.
And also, we all heal differently and at different times with different tools. The MLC lens has allowed me to let go of what was necessary to let go of so that I (and he) could heal as well as focus on the work I need to do to have a good future relationship no matter who it is with.
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The MLC angle gave me the hope I thought I needed in the very beginning, but it didn't last long and wasn't enough to keep me remotely "hanging on" after I learned of all the lies, deceit and betrayal. Nothing in this world can justify those things to me. After the trust was decimated, MLC or not had no bearing.
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I'd would have to say no too.
My MLCer was quite different. He was not a Monster, nor was he abusive, or cheating on me, he was just adamant he wanted a divorce, out of the blue. He was emotionally gone and I was confused and shocked.
I knew nothing about MLC before this happened, so I felt he just must have fell out of love with me for some reason.
Joining this site was a God sent for me. It explained what was happening to him. He was in a crisis. It was not about me or our marriage. So, for me..and only me, it helped to look at it through the MLC lens to understand it and also to let go of trying to fix him. I realized I couldn't, because I didn't break him.
I stopped dwelling on it.
But I imagine it is very different for each of us.
Good discussion question, Acorn. :)
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I stopped dwelling on it.
I think this is the crux of the matter.
After I learned more than enough about MLC, I kept dwelling on it!
Well, I am a slow learner...
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Such a useful question.
Helped me see that there was nothing I could do. Helped me understand some of the 'logic' behind some of the behaviour enough to unhook from it and change my expectations.
Absolutely helped me feel validated that I was not insane, alone or irretrievably broken.
Didn't help if it led to mindreading 'he says x but might mean y' or predicting the process or outcomes.
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I think it is more useful for understanding the behavior than dealing with it.
I would say that one has to be careful if following the MLC advice is for the benefit of the MLCer or oneself. Paving the way means putting something down for them to walk on, so does being a doormat. There's a thin line between no expectations, and turning a blind eye to bad behavior.
For me when thinking about following the MLC advice causes me a lot of mental distress and makes me feel muffled, I don't follow it. Yeah, it might piss off my H sometimes, he might run away and hide from me for a few days, but sometimes we just have to express ourselves and be ourselves and let the chips fall where they may. It may have zero effect on their behavior but at least I get what I wanted off my chest.
I guess you have to reach a point where you are detached enough that you trust your own judgment and are ready to accept the consequences if it turns out your judgment is faulty, and not just blindly follow the MLC guidebook.
I also think following MLC advice for years on end is like pretzeling oneself into an unnatural position. At some point you just need to be yourself and if it doesn't suit the MLCer so be it. Otherwise, you are just coddling them and waiting for them to grow up. You need to be the adult you are and act like they are an adult even if they aren't.
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Acorn, in regards to MLC, I am a slow learner too! It’s been 2.5 years since Bd for me and I think I have been “waiting” more than healing. In so many ways learning about MLC has helped me make some sense out of the unimaginable.
However, I still ruminate. I read the forum every. Single. Day. My H is on my mind every single day. Most nights I dream about him (I actually believe I am doing a lot of productive work in my dreams - so I am ok seeing H in them, we actually get on very well in my dreams!)
It is time for me to put MLC on the shelf and really focus on me and my healing, self care FOR ME, not so I am ready for my H to return, but for me specifically...this is new progress and I attribute the shift to learning so much from many generous and kind people on HS.
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It keeps me stuck. But when I remove the MLC lens, the world suggests h is a narcissist, cheater, user, addict, and psychopath.
I have to tell you, all those concepts scare the he11 out of me. Each of those alternate explanations is just nightmarish and unworkable, and puts the blame squarely on me for choosing or selecting or receiving a person like that to love. With those explanations, the world tells me I am damaged and broken because of my own life history or epigenetics or what have you, and that I will never, ever get it right in loving — unless I pay through the nose for this or that coaching program, a long track of this or that therapy, or upwards of $55K and time out of work to go sort it out in a rehab/recovery in-patient program, with assorted meds or ongoing 12-step and always working the program.
I’ve spent literally over $100K in therapy over the years. Did that work? It sure cost a lot. The one definitive output is that for the money and time and effort, I could have instead either bought a house or earned a clinical Psy. D. in psychology. Ultimately I know myself very well, do not own a house, am alone and in tremendous debt, and have “graduated” both from clinical trainings and several therapies. I continue with supporting clinical trainings as my budget and interest allows, and I counsel when asked to counsel in my areas of experience/training/expertise, for the love of it and others, and not ever for money.
But I have definitely graduated from the DSM, and will not ever tolerate anyone suggesting I am whatever label for what I have been subjected to in life, all the things that were and are beyond any choice or control. That’s why I recoil and rebut when anyone leans toward calling the midlife behaviors any formal diagnostic label. The DSM to me is just the antithesis of the Bible, anymore, and not helpful in explaining what goes on. As time continues, watch the labels and diagnostic criteria change. Some of the current common diagnoses, we’ll find that people grow out of them. Bet.
I finally resorted to a women’s Bible study this summer, the same month I started writing here. Inexpensive, communal, in-person care and support in real time and living voice. Ultimately it’s been bigger and deeper and more healing than any other support I’ve sought aside from the support we all read and give each other here. And the Christian focus is not on midlife anything; the group has all ages, both of attendees and of marriages. It’s not simple, and yet it is: our spouses are making choices and actions that harm us. So how do we attend our marriages, in that case? And why might this be happening?
It’s weird to shift from the MLC lens to another that shows this is simply a human crisis. I asked the first night about Standing, and none of the ladies had any idea what I was even talking about. And yet it is exactly what every one of them is doing.
When I thought to name this board as a resource, I realized it didn’t even connect with how these women saw their stories. And that it was wrong guidance, if I said to any particular woman, your h is of the age where this might be an MLC thing. I saw that a) her h was none of my business, and b) I didn’t and don’t actually know, and can’t, whether any one person or spouse is having MLC. The only one thing I know for certain about any person at all in a situation like this is whether they are suffering. And of course they are.
So I have my antennae always up and like a honeybee, scout and collect a lot of information from now literally thousands of sources. Some of it is always right, and some of it changes or withers or goes inert. To date the one source that gives me respite continually is Source itself, and for that, no language or contemporary container is needed. At bottom I just know h is going through *something*. I don’t know what it is and it still hurts me and scares me even now. And he will either come out of it, and come home to me to repair and to stay, or he won’t.
So I guess in that respect, I do remove the MLC lens a lot. We all could, here, and this community would still be the best for all the stories and sharing and clarity. The primary messages still being yes, your loved spouse is going through *something*, are you and the kids ok, here are some things that may help you, and no, you are not alone. And also potentially and very often, no, this change in your spouse is not your fault.
Great question and discussion, thank you for starting this inquiry.
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Now, would you look at the collective wisdom here! It’s in every reply.
Some replies highlighted a few of the possible outcomes of keeping the MLC glasses perched on one’s nose.
Didn't help if it led to mindreading 'he says x but might mean y' or predicting the process or outcomes.
It’s been 2.5 years since Bd for me and I think I have been “waiting” more than healing.
There's a thin line between no expectations, and turning a blind eye to bad behavior.
<snip>
I also think following MLC advice for years on end is like pretzeling oneself into an unnatural position. At some point you just need to be yourself and if it doesn't suit the MLCer so be it. Otherwise, you are just coddling them and waiting for them to grow up. You need to be the adult you are and act like they are an adult even if they aren't.
There are many more.
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A good question.
I too would have to say, “no, it has not kept me stuck”, although maybe the term stuck needs further definition.
The concept of MLC actually helped me detach and start healing. Because so many of my Wife’s actions were in conflict to the person I knew I was completely lost as to the “why” of it all. Reading here answered much of the “why” and this provided me with a path toward understanding and empathy.
I am still on that path. I do think about her a lot, but I do not contact, nor ask mutual friends about her. I do not expect nor await her return, but can not imagine finding an equal to her.
So I sometimes ask myself what would I do differently had she passed away? As weird as it is to say I think I would be in the same place as described in the above paragraph.
Is that stuck?
Or grieving?
Or something else…
Whatever the answer I am slowly moving forward.
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It’s weird to shift from the MLC lens to another that shows this is simply a human crisis.
May the shift become un-weird very, very soon, Terra.
That shift was instrumental in my own healing and marching forward.
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I too would have to say, “no, it has not kept me stuck”, although maybe the term stuck needs further definition.
To me, ‘being stuck’, in the context of LBSs, is a ‘failure to thrive.’
‘Being stuck’ through the middle by a gigantic MLC pin, unable to move forward and carpe diem.
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Fwiw, the question is a bit vague for me. Seeing my situation through the MLC lense was important in the beginning, the same as for others. My situation is no longer through the MLC lense, though. I have grown and changed and set out on my own path, so I'm not thinking (at all times, anyway) "I'm doing this because of the MLC situation".
If I had lamented over what my MLCer had done, and how my life was devastated and how I can never trust again, etc and not moved forward from that thinking, then I would have totally been stuck.
(Adding this because the battery on my tablet died.) If I had also kept thinking of my actions based on the actions of my MLCer I would also have been totally stuck.
I supposed for me, my lense is always looking to the horizon, sometimes forward, sometimes back, sometimes to the sides. I keep a weather eye on the MLC lense from time to time to make sure I don't get sucked into that with anyone else.
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Thank you, Offroad, for further defining ‘stuck.’
Would you say the summary of your post is that you do not define yourself by MLCer or MLC, and that you steer your ship which is not attached to MLCer’s, thanks to personal growth?
If I’’m wrong, please correct me.
Perhaps the thread title should have been ‘Persisting to see your situation through the MLC lens. Does it keep you stuck?’
As many have shared, it was good to find information on MLC that explained my H’s inexplicable and sudden transformation into a ‘monster.’ After a while, I realized I was deeply mired in interpreting all that he said and did through the MLC lens which kept me focussed on him, not me. That’s one of the several ‘aha!’ moments (or victories, if you like) that spurred me forward. It sounds like many had the same experience, I’m glad to note.
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I agree I kept myself distracted from what I needed to be doing by focusing on mlc. Although in truth I wasn’t capable of doing what I needed to do for quite some time. I think Terra has written wise advice: focus in their behaviours and if they aren’t kind and decent then turn away. They are of no use while they are emotionally dysfunctional or just emotionally unavailable.
If they ever change, they will come and let us know and if we have changed in positive ways, we are in a strong position to ask for what we need in a relationship too.
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Offroad brings up a good point about thinking of our actions with the MLC’r in mind.
Taking stock of recent past actions strikes me as a good gauge for our own level of detachment or stuckedness.
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Both.
If I focus on the aspects of what it is, how should I respond, what caused it then it keeps me stuck.
From the aspect that I’m not alone, that I’m not in some alternate reality, to be encouraged and grow from seeing others growths and journey and self love I find that aspect very helpful.
It’s the primary reason I don’t really focus on H and his behavior but my own in my posts.....because I stop growing or learning or being healthy mentally when I’m busy watching whatever it is that he’s doing.
I feel like there should be some giant disclaimer at the beginning that says:
MLC IS CAUSED BY A VARIETY OF FACTORS EACH IS DIFFERENT AND PERSON SPECIFIC, YOU CANNOT AFFECT OR CHANGE ANY OF THEM, IF YOU ARE FOCUSING ON YOUR SPOUSE/EX YOU CAN NEITHER BE GROWING OR HEALING.
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Thank you, Offroad, for further defining ‘stuck.’
Would you say the summary of your post is that you do not define yourself by MLCer or MLC, and that you steer your ship which is not attached to MLCer’s, thanks to personal growth?
If I’’m wrong, please correct me.
Perhaps the thread title should have been ‘Persisting to see your situation through the MLC lens. Does it keep you stuck?’
As many have shared, it was good to find information on MLC that explained my H’s inexplicable and sudden transformation into a ‘monster.’ After a while, I realized I was deeply mired in interpreting all that he said and did through the MLC lens which kept me focussed on him, not me. That’s one of the several ‘aha!’ moments (or victories, if you like) that spurred me forward. It sounds like many had the same experience, I’m glad to note.
Yes, that is a pretty good summary of my post. Adding the word "Persisting" is clarifying, IMO, but "Persisting Seeing your situation ONLY through the MLC lens" if that is what you mean might be better. That is how I took it, but I wasn't sure from the answers that others took it that way so wondered if I misinterpreted. Maybe I still have.
For me, and it is only for me, when I moved from thinking about what will happen when he sorts himself out to what I want to do NOW, the focus was no longer on what my MLCer did or didn't do. It was on how I wanted to live my life, whether or not he ever returns, reconnects, speaks to me again, whatever. What he does is his own business. I will take care of me ( and at the time, the kids).
I stood until. My until was the divorce, but that doesn't mean that XH and I might not find each other somewhere down the road. I don't wait for it, hope for it, etc, but I am not closed off to it depending on the circumstances (at least at the moment I'm not). When I watched what he did, tried to figure out "what x means", paid attention to every nuance, that was being stuck. When I owned that I had no control over over what he was doing, only what I was doing, no more stuck. It doesn't mean I don't get upset or angry when he pulls some bozo move, or I find one more thing he lied about as I clean the house, but I don't dwell on it or think I cannot change my own stars ( or maybe how I look at them) because of it. I still occasionally see some part of my life through the MLC lens for minute or a day, but I don't think that is a bad thing. I think that is a learning thing as long as I don't stay there.
Example being the other day as I sat in the garage realizing that all the stuff XH insisted was my fault wasn't even mine. It was his. I chewed on that for a day, realized that I hadn't had time to sort the garage while the kids were growing up, but he hadn't sorted it either, so he had no idea whose stuff it was. He just projected it all onto me. It made me wonder how I had missed that he never sorted the garage EITHER. Why was it on me? Why did I take that on as my responsibility? I found my answer in my reflection and moved along. It's the moving along that is the important part.
For anyone who wants to know the answer to the above questions was guilt that I never seemed to have EVERYTHING taken care of. XH earned the money. That was it. I did everything else because I somehow thought that was a fair exchange for staying home to raise the kids. I seemed to have forgotten that my father took out the garbage and cleaned the garage and called for the plumber and did a multitude of other things around the house even though he was the only breadwinner in my family. He didn't just go to work and come home and do nothing. XH didn't start out that way, BTW. But in the years leading up to BD, he became that and I filled in the blanks increasing my workload. And yet there is only so much one person can do. I had been able to do it all before and now I could not, so it must be me. Of course, it was not me. A lesson in perspective.
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Thank you so much for sharing your thoughts on the topic, folks. This forum is full of sensible, mature, honest and deep thinking people who are not only willing but wanting to learn and grow, recognizing that focussing on MLCer is neither helpful, nor healthy.
Courage, how much I agree with you:
I feel like there should be some giant disclaimer at the beginning that says:
MLC IS CAUSED BY A VARIETY OF FACTORS EACH IS DIFFERENT AND PERSON SPECIFIC, YOU CANNOT AFFECT OR CHANGE ANY OF THEM, IF YOU ARE FOCUSING ON YOUR SPOUSE/EX YOU CAN NEITHER BE GROWING OR HEALING.
It’s notable how I, in reconnection/rebuilding, and Offroad in different circumstances, have the same attitdude:
For me, and it is only for me, when I moved from thinking about what will happen when he sorts himself out to what I want to do NOW, the focus was no longer on what my MLCer did or didn't do. It was on how I wanted to live my life, whether or not he ever returns, reconnects, speaks to me again, whatever. What he does is his own business. I will take care of me ( and at the time, the kids).
I’d say the MLC lens is a tool to understand what is going on, not a way of life. Use it when necessary and then put it away. A bit like my magnifying glasses for fine needlework. I can’t imagine driving with them on!
I, for one, would love to read more reflections on the question in the thread title, which is about LBS, not MLCer.
We can be a mirror for one another. :)
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Great question Acorn!
It did keep me stuck for a while, it was a way to justify the unjustifiable so I could in a way keep my love for H.. It explained a lot of things for me and that helped me a lot in the beginning but eventually the MLC lens had to go so I could really start moving forward with my life.. The issue with the MLC lens is that it gives the idea of "this is just temporary, if I ride the wave, we'll be OK in the end".. But the reality is that very few people actually do reconnect/reconcile so eventually I saw the MLC lens as nothing more than denial.. Denial that my life had changed forever and it was up to me and me alone to get up, dust myself off and move forward and let H choose his own path.. Only when the MLC lens went, I truly stopped waiting for an outcome.
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This is a great thread ,
I am a little over a year in and I feel stuck at time's. I still yearn for a return or something. I am growing and moving forward but at snail's pace it feels. I sometimes go afee weeks without posting on this site. Then something happens, I see her or whatever and I cycle all over again.
They are shorter and less intense but that is where I am. Am I in denial ? Maybe but I am trusting the process. She is no good for me and I am no good to anyone else at the moment.
But I get stronger everyday
God Bless you all
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Whatever our focus is on, ourselves or our spouses, I think if we are still in this forum, we are stuck. Especially if we are focusing on ourselves, here. Because why on earth should we need to be focusing on ourselves in an MLC forum? It's almost lying to oneself to say you are focused on yourself if you spend all your time here. I think if people were really focused on themselves and not their MLCer, they would find another place to do it.
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Whatever our focus is on, ourselves or our spouses, I think if we are still in this forum, we are stuck. Especially if we are focusing on ourselves, here. Because why on earth should we need to be focusing on ourselves in an MLC forum? It's almost lying to oneself to say you are focused on yourself if you spend all your time here. I think if people were really focused on themselves and not their MLCer, they would find another place to do it.
Not for me. I've long since left the abandoner in the dust. I'm here simply to encourage every other LBS to do the same
All you have to do is read a sample of my thread to see this is how I roll.
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NYM,
Whatever our focus is on, ourselves or our spouses, I think if we are still in this forum, we are stuck. Especially if we are focusing on ourselves, here. Because why on earth should we need to be focusing on ourselves in an MLC forum? It's almost lying to oneself to say you are focused on yourself if you spend all your time here. I think if people were really focused on themselves and not their MLCer, they would find another place to do it.
I politely disagree.
In this forum I am asked questions that challenge me to grow. That help me see truths that I am unable to see myself. I am given links that are timely and have helped me grow and heal exponentially.
If that is the truth for yourself........I lovingly ask....why are you here?
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NYM, I think ‘stuck’ and ‘choose to stay’ may have been used synonymously. I will respond to your post because the term ‘stuck’ needs further clarification as some have already suggested, and, thus, it’s relevant to the thread title.
Whatever our focus is on, ourselves or our spouses, I think if we are still in this forum, we are stuck.
Sure, some might be stuck and that’s the reason for their presence on HS. In my humble opinion, these are the people who sit on their hands, waiting for their MLCers to wake up and come back to them. In other words, ‘sitting on the porch and crocheting doilies.’ - UrsaMajor. (Thanks, UM! ;D)
Some stay to learn more about themselves so that they may grow. I dare say no one is perfect and there is always something we can learn and improve on. In those cases, this forum works as a mirror. A good thing.
Some stay to pay it forward. When we were hurting and confused, many kind people virtually held our hands, hugged us and checked up on us. Total strangers responded with their hearts brimming with empathy. (I’m tearing up... These total strangers were there for me when I was floundering.)
Especially if we are focusing on ourselves, here. Because why on earth should we need to be focusing on ourselves in an MLC forum?
I’d say that if LBS is focusing on herself and her life, she has graduated from the newbie status after having learned enough about MLC to realize that you simply cannot fix MLCer or predict the outcome of MLC or M.
I shout from the rooftop: ‘Focus on yourselves, LBSs!’
It's almost lying to oneself to say you are focused on yourself if you spend all your time here.
It could be true in some cases, I don’t know.
Some may spend a lot of time here because of the same reasons I outlined at the beginning - for self improvement and/or to pay it forward. Maybe they feel it is their calling to help others because they also have been there and understand what other LBSs are experiencing? It’s same as volunteering in real life, such as helping out in a soup kitchen, etc.
I think if people were really focused on themselves and not their MLCer, they would find another place to do it.
I agree that it may be beneficial for some to leave HS in order to quit obsessing about their MLCers, move forward and rebuild their lives.
I also think that some old timers who help out day in, day out, are here because they would love to help others. Because they are good people.
Let’s not confuse ‘stuck’ with ‘staying on.’
Now, back to the question: Seeing your situation through the MLC lens. Does it keep you stuck?
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The simplest definition of 'stuck' for me was feeling stuck.
Either in indecision or in inaction. Sometimes both lol.
Focusing too much for too long on the MLC bit of the equation added something that I could not control, predict or change or really comprehend tbh. I was stuck when I was still trying to do that bc actually it was impossible.
I agree that older timers like me come here for different reasons as you say Acorn and each of us knows if that is feeding a sense of 'stuck' or not at a given time.
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Yes, there are people who stay on to help others. That's not what I am talking about, because it has nothing to do with focusing on oneself. :)
But coming to a forum about MLC and saying you are focusing on yourself is like saying you aren't thinking about pink elephants. How can you not think about pink elephants in a pink elephant forum? You can't shut yourself off from the MLC discussion here even if you are coming here to focus on yourself. If you really want to focus on yourself I believe you have to get away from the reminders of MLC.
As for why I am here, well it has nothing to do with focusing on myself. I'm not pretending to be focusing on myself or self-healing or doing any mirror work. I actually have quite a lot that needs my focus in my life other than my MLCer at the moment anyway, even if I were interested in that kind of stuff, which I am not. Why focus on ourselves anyway? Don't people have kids, elderly parents, hobbies, jobs etc. that need their attention? Why all the encouragement of navel gazing rather than just LIVING life?
Also, I still live with my MLCer so he's not something I can just take my focus off entirely anyway for practical reasons.
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I guess I felt stuck here after a time, as relating /rehashing my story so I could relate to others was getting kind of old. And sometimes way too painful There came a time when I got no benefit and recounting it. No reason to keep reliving it.
It did help a great deal to be able to vent here..I had a lot of that to do. I was trying to get myself back to somewhat "normal" And this site helped me, I should say, let me do that, vent, and no one took it personally or was offended then. nor told me not to be angry. And for that I am grateful.
Sick of myself posting that same old past rehash? That is not going to make any difference. it's in the past. I wasn't put on this earth to put up with some guys abusive BS. I just didn't want to make the same mistakes I had already had made in case I moved on into another relationship.
So you have to give yourself the time to heal and actively work to get there. So just in case you move on to another relationship you will be healed enough not to attract the same type of man (woman) again.
In working on myself I threw up huge boundaries this second time. That was hard to get used to having. I worried way to much about how others felt about me. I always tried to be polite before.
If I get pissed now? Especially after I've done all I could and someone still thinks they can get away with keeping me engaged in a negative way? I do not take one ounce of sh!t anymore. My anger lets me know something is wrong.
Mostly for these last six years I was stuck in the anger phase of grief. May still be to a certain extent? but no where near as bad as it was. In my opinion The anger helps you detach.
And I am careful whom I do this with. Had a fight with one tenant. NO PROBLEM- get out.
She persisted to text to keep the fight going. . I just stopped replying.
Was it hard? YES very hard. Hop- up -and- down- wanna -throw -my -phone -across -the -room- then- stomp- on- it hard. But I stopped texting.
I found out there's been some lying on her part. Now I will not deal with her at all.
I had a dear friend of mine the other day we were texting about an horrible accident that had happened in our area The authorities where looking for a red truck with front passenger damage. She said since she had the same kind of damage on her truck and it's red she might stay home.
I said to her.."They said red, your truck is not red." She came back with "Yes it is." :P
I said "No it's not, it's more of a rust color." Then added "I'm not arguing with you. If you think it's red, it's red." sent her a laughy emoji and a kissy face one.
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This is an interesting question. I suppose I have a bit of a different view on this as I have never looked at what has happened solely through an MLC lens. I came to this site originally after researching NPD and other things. My mind was open to looking for what the answer was, and I don't particularly care about 1 particular label..so much as the patterns of behaviour exhibited by both, what to expect, what can be done or not done.
I think it requires some amount of focus on the MLCer and the past to be able to heal and grow actually. But it has to be the right kind of focus. It can't be a ''see what you wanna see'' type of focus...or a ''so and so said it so it is gospel'' type of focus. I think you have to really open your mind to the possibilities, both good and bad...and look at all the flaws and cracks within yourself. To some extent you do need to focus on your spouse but I think it is a different type of focus. Like a sorta third party observer instead of an emotional feeling focus.
But after that sort of refinement processes, of sorting through the ''truth'' from many different perspectives (LBS, MLCer, children, family...friends) then your focus should shift to a ''what is best for me regardless of them'' mentality as you say.
So as for coming here to HS if you are no longer focused on MLC...well I must admit that I tend to come here less and less as time goes on. At this point I mostly come on to see where my virtual friends are...how they are doing...but more and more threads get behind. I read less and less. Sometimes I log on intending to read a few threads...then I wander off and just leave it sitting on my desktop.
Even in my own thread I find it has been more focused on me, and the things I am processing or feeling and I often forget to even post the ridiculousness of the MLCer. Two years on it just feels like the same old same old. Still a clinger...still a nut case... still doing what he has been doing. What does it matter what he is doing at any rate? So I use HS as a virtual brain dump...a place to process what I am mentally thinking on, and a place to catch up with people I have been following for a few years now.
So not everyone who visits HS is stuck...but...there is still some sort of focus on it. Even if it is in the peripheral of your vision...or used as backboard for your own processing. I imagine that will be the case for a very long time. Be it because you want to stand and reconcile, or because you never want to make the same mistakes again.
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Agree with what Morte wrote here. It's a process for the LBS, maybe different timescales and conclusions, but the overall process is pretty similar I think. And folks will engage with the HS forum based on where you are and what is best for you as Morte says.
Looking back, I think there might be three stages broadly re the MLC lens. The first is a kind of shock response of trying to understand the truck that just hit you, like a witness statement lol. The second is probably based on a belief that if you can name it you can navigate it or outgame or outlast it maybe. The third is when you focus on the behaviour rather than the cause perhaps and start to work out what is acceptable and best for you, your kids and your life. Not easy but life imho does get simpler when you get to the third phase where the MLC lens ceases to be so useful and you mostly just look at the behaviour without speculating so much on why someone acts that way......largely perhaps bc you stop looking at the MLCer and start looking more at you. And you probably don't need an MLC lens to look at yourself lol, although you may need other lens of course.
I think the 'stuckness' sometimes is around that second/third phase when, for longer than observable facts suggest often, we find it incomprehensible that a spouse would not choose to behave like a decent parent or a reasonable adult when they apparently have what they want, that they must be capable of compromise or telling the truth or showing some sense of responsibility or obeying the law or caring about others or frankly just behaving like other sane normal adults we have seen who are divorcing. Perhaps we get stuck in expecting some of that, not seeing it and trying to use the MLC lens to figure out what we can expect? Some find ways to stand while quarantining themselves from the worst of the behaviour; others do not or cannot.
Imho there is a liberation in just looking at the behaviour and finally being able to set aside the whys, speculation, excuses or mindreading. If someone ignores me, it is bc they don't want to talk to me. I can trust that simple fact when I can't know why or what is going on in their head at the time. If a parent does not turn up to see their child regularly, it is bc right now it isn't important enough to them. If someone threatens me, it is bc they want something and don't care what I want as long as they get it. if someone treats me with contempt or rage, it is bc they feel that way probably and think they can.
None of the whys are my job to guess....in time, some of those may unfold and some may turn out to be MLCish...but I can make choices based on saying yes and no to the behaviour I see. But it requires us to accept that this is really how it is for the foreseeable near future, that this is really how this person is today regardless of my previous experience of them, and that takes a bit of time to swallow bc often it is pretty awful to accept isn't it? The ex/spouses behaviour we share here rarely brings anything useful or life-enriching does it lol? Perhaps we get unstuck as we start to make decisions, big and small, without considering them at all.
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Does seeing my situation through the MLC lens keep me stuck? I think for me, if anything, it is a constant reminder that I should NOT get stuck, if that makes any sense at all. Being on this forum reminds me of that notion daily, and I need that affirmation presently. Does that make me stuck? I don't think so.
I think there are some that seem to believe a new R is the solution to becoming unstuck. Maybe it will do the trick for them. But for me personally, I am healing now and would be NO GOOD in a new R. I still harbor some anger and sadness, and still mourning the loss of my beloved H. Seeing him through an MLC lens allows me to have compassion and love for him in spite of all he has done. But my brain will not allow me to be taken advantage of by him either, especially since I have a child to consider.
Knowing about MLC allows me to be able to navigate the small interactions I do have with H. I guess any old psychological approach to dealing with any personality disorder would do in that sense. But really, having a PD vs. MLC is the same thing isn't it? Someone once said these MLCers are functional Narcissists. Maybe the "stuck" part comes when people put too much emphasis on the temporary part of MLC and feel their spouse will come through all this and they will live happily ever after. I don't see many of those people here though. I think most posters here are pretty darn smart--much smarter than me for sure.
Then again, isn't everything temporary? I know I have changed throughout this process. And I will probably (hopefully) change some more--ie: grow. Hoping H will too, but not really banking on it.
Also, I've read the responses on this thread and would have to say, you people are all so intelligent and articulate. I agree with so many of your POVs and am always amazed how seeing another perspective can be so enlightening. So thank you for all of your well thought out sentiments.
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I have been thinking about this. For me, the answer is NO. Viewing the situation through the MLC lens actually helped. I didn't find this site for about 2 mos. During those 2 mos I had already taken steps to "deal" with my situation. My therapist was great at concentrating on me, however, she also didn't like my situation and just wanted to help me close all doors and walk away. I knew something was off and we were just not connecting. Learning about MLC, gave me things to consider.
Coming across this site provided quite an education for me. I then found other sites and for a few months, I dwelled on learning as much as I could. Was I stuck then? Maybe to some degree. Looking back, NO. I was learning and growing and understanding. I accepted that MLC was a strong possibility.
Even now, I have a lot of dealings with the MLCer. Knowing what I do know now helps me to recognize "script" and stay "detached". I don't hang my future on every visit or phone call or text. I appreciate the nice things when they do occur but also understand the times of distancing for what they are. Not understanding MLC, I could have possibly fell into H's cycles and might not have focused as much on my own healing. His close cycling would have given me false hope and then he would have snatched it away. I might have considered pushing him away with the wrong behaviors. Instead, I learned how to control me and not react emotionally.
As for coming back to this site....if that means I am stuck...then I am stuck and for the most part I am stuck with great company.
I for one came here for support and answers initially. Later it was to journal. Now it is still part of the journal (keeping it all in one place) and part about paying it forward. Part about keeping up with LBSers that I have met along the way. Part of it is recognizing the different normal that we choose to live with.
Did I sit and do nothing? NO! I learned to GAL. Going out, doing things, etc. Then I also learned how to work on me. I visited my past (and I still do just not as much). I faced many things and I know there will be more to face, but I won't run from it.
I can see where my life COULD parallel that of an MLCer. Knowing all this, helps me to avoid those mistakes. The denial, the running, the anger, the cycles. I guess you can say I am learning from his mistakes instead of creating my own.
Long story short, his MLC and being able to see it is helping me to learn and grow and become a much better, more tolerant, less volatile person. My learning is not over.
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Treasur just expresses precisely my process - at 2.5 years post BD, 2 years post OW discovery I am hanging in the abyss between phase 2 and phase 3. I know phase 3 is where I want to be, but phase 2 is where I have been, and only in the last couple of days am I starting to visualize and contemplate phase 3. Because I am so raw and mired in the process I have not been able to articulate it with anywhere near the clarity of Teeasur’s post, so I owe you a giant debt of gratitude for putting to words the searing ache and confusion I have felt.
Separately, I am incredibly grateful for the MLC lens, I have no desire to rewrite my marriage, my love for my spouse, our 18 year long relationship or my belief that at his core he is a good person struggling with horrific behaviors and what I believe to be a true mental health crisis. When you witness a person having a manic break in your living room - raging and screaming heinous and vile bullets in your direction, a person engaging in behaviors only months before he was repulsed by in others. Without the MLC knowledge and lens I would have ended up in a mental institution myself, without question. Reading and learning about others experiencing similar traumatic events, while tragic, also was comforting. I am not alone. My kids are not alone. And we are not crazy.
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3Boys, i remember the fear and horror of seeing my then h implode in front of me. The memory has faded but reading what you wrote brought it back. Not every LBS has witnessed what you describe.
The tricky tough thing about the 'phase 3' as I described it is that it does push us to put down some of the excuses we make for them. And often that brings a time of anger or even hatred which challenges how we see them and see the past too. Which can be uncomfortable and a bit messy emotionally tbh. Even un-detaches us a bit bc we feel so angry about their behaviour but without being able to defray it with MLC 'excuses'. But if we let it pass through, we find our own balancing point I think.
Strangely enough I have had a couple of dreams recently involving my xh, his family and my parents and I have been raging with anger in the dreams. Not about what he did to me, but about how he treated my parents after years of them loving and trusting him, as if he long-conned them really, used them and then ran away when they/we needed him most. Last night - in my dream lol - I smacked his head against a wall ::)...ha ha pretty angry right? But I know it is just my subconscious venting of anger that has had no place to go in RL. Bc it is true that he betrayed their trust too and threw all of us away under the wheels of his happy bus without any sign of remorse and while being cheered on by his FOO celebrating his new marriage and new set of ils like a kind of free pass....anger is an understandable feeling to have about that isn't it?
Phase 3 does bring that kind of bad vs mad internal tussle I think, choice vs compulsion that you see discussed on threads here....which can feel like a bit of a step back to go forwards....not sure I have yet reached a final decision on that other than words like broken and shoddy lol. Maybe bc in my case one of the other gifts of time is that I sometimes find it harder to remember the good person he was bc it is a long time since I saw him but I can still trust my own judgment than none of this felt normal or like the person we all knew. And I am not alone and not crazy either. Always worth knowing that :)
I think 'phase 3' is influenced quite strongly by our individual LBS situation and the behaviours that we are still having to deal with. Actually I have often thought that the LBS Script, as well as the MLC one, starts out more similar but the patterns diverge based more on individual situations and characters over time...probably what generates some of the different POV s or a few of the spats here on HS? So my situation is not yours; neither is Acorn's...and putting down the MLC lens is part of that reality too isn't it? So no need to force it....these internal shifts tend to come of their own accord almost as we keep doing the best we can to detach and look after ourselves/kids and heal. Sometimes 'stuck' is a necessary healing pause for breath before moving forward....jmo.
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I think initially that if we don't use the MLC lens we will not be able to look at ourselves.
I too live with my MLCer as does Acorn and so sometimes it has been hard to not look through the lens.
However it is a choice to not do so and to turn the lens back onto your inner self, needs, wants and growth.
Being stuck is sometimes a choice. It is easier to focus on the MLCer than it is to focus on ourselves. Fixers (like me) are notoriously bad at learning self growth.
When I came to this forum 6.5 yrs ago, so many kind strangers reached out to me and all urged me to focus on self. I took their advice as much as possible because I realised that they had been where I was. My situation wasn't unique but my growth and self love was. Followed up by several sessions with my wonderful therapist and I learned that you sometimes have to use the MLC lens to help you understand your and your own growth.
Like a few of you if you take the lens away then my H is a narcissist, liar and cheat. However this wasn't the man I married and so I have done my best to treat him with respect and kindness but without rolling over and agreeing. I have learned to see his behaviour for what it is.
Am I stuck - I think self growth for the LBS is a series of plateaus, peaks and troughs. MLC is a series of peaks, troughs and plateaus. Do the two have to be in sync - no. Are they sometimes - yes.
Does coming on here keep you stuck. This is something my son said to me. He claimed that by being on here I hadn't totally "moved on" and dropped the situation and whilst he understood the paying forward he also thinks that it cannot but help deliberately revisit the feelings.
And yet I am not the same S&D I was when I joined. I am happier, more content with who and what I am and what I do than I have ever been.
I see being on here part of my continuing self growth and understanding. That said I usually only spend 20 mins a day max if I am in a daily contact mood or can leave it for weeks. Choosing to learn and to act upon advice from others is healthy - choosing not to is not!
Being stuck to me is not acting upon the wealth of advice that is offered on here. It is not just about the MLC lens.
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Bravo.
This is the best thread I have read in a long time on this site. Difficult to pull out a quote because there are so many valid points.
I’m so guilty of trying to inject the drug of WTF happened to my spouse.
What was he doing? What was he saying? What was he thinking? Did they get in a fight? What does that mean? Did you leave you wife and come back? How? What? Why? Did she do something, say something? Wear certain clothes? Date someone? Did it work?
Maybe it’s not his fault. Maybe the affair partner forced him to have sex with her. Maybe he has a brain tumor. Hey, there’s this MLC thing that will make sure it’s not his fault. Maybe he will “wake out of the fog” that forced his Pen!$ into her V@g!n@.
Ugh!!!!!
He wouldn’t give me answers, so I pressed on.
I befriended a wife of one of his coworkers to get information. She loved being involved in the drama and fed me a wealth of information. Unfortunately when I started to find strength, she did her best to keep me down. That’s why I’m now skeptical of some “good intentions” advisors.
She was one of many i latched onto.
This forum was a good tool.
I remember having a physical pain in my chest bc I craved my husband. I needed the drug that was ripped out of my arms. When the pain was unbearable, I would open my laptop and inject the drug that I was missing. No, not my husband, but as close as I could get.
I could inject his thoughts into my bloodstream by just asking the closest to my MLCer as I could get...
Another ex-mlcer that was on this forum. Not at all his fault, he had good intentions, he was also hurting bc of his mistakes and he had just joined a forum to write about his thoughts, just like the rest of us.
Other posters questioned why he even belonged here. He wasn’t a LBS, he was an ex-MLCer, maybe he should leave Hero’s Spouse as he wasn’t one of us.
Oh, how I defended him.
You see, those questions felt like they were attacking my husband. My husband a MLCer and this guy was an ex-MLCer, so he had the keys to how I would get my husband back.
Not only did he have the answers, I could inject what I needed whenever the pain was too intense for me to handle, which was basically all the time.
I guess that’s why the double account thread gets under my skin.
I can see the addicts lining up and begging for more.
I can see it, bc I was one of them.
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Bravo.
This is the best thread I have read in a long time on this site. Difficult to pull out a quote because there are so many valid points.
I’m so guilty of trying to inject the drug of WTF happened to my spouse.
What was he doing? What was he saying? What was he thinking? Did they get in a fight? What does that mean? Did you leave you wife and come back? How? What? Why? Did she do something, say something? Wear certain clothes? Date someone? Did it work?
Maybe it’s not his fault. Maybe the affair partner forced him to have sex with her. Maybe he has a brain tumor. Hey, there’s this MLC thing that will make sure it’s not his fault. Maybe he will “wake out of the fog” that forced his Pen!$ into her V@g!n@.
Ugh!!!!!
He wouldn’t give me answers, so I pressed on.
I befriended a wife of one of his coworkers to get information. She loved being involved in the drama and fed me a wealth of information. Unfortunately when I started to find strength, she did her best to keep me down. That’s why I’m now skeptical of some “good intentions” advisors.
She was one of many i latched onto.
This forum was a good tool.
I remember having a physical pain in my chest bc I craved my husband. I needed the drug that was ripped out of my arms. When the pain was unbearable, I would open my laptop and inject the drug that I was missing. No, not my husband, but as close as I could get.
I could inject his thoughts into my bloodstream by just asking the closest to my MLCer as I could get...
Another ex-mlcer that was on this forum. Not at all his fault, he had good intentions, he was also hurting bc of his mistakes and he had just joined a forum to write about his thoughts, just like the rest of us.
Other posters questioned why he even belonged here. He wasn’t a LBS, he was an ex-MLCer, maybe he should leave Hero’s Spouse as he wasn’t one of us.
Oh, how I defended him.
You see, those questions felt like they were attacking my husband. My husband a MLCer and this guy was an ex-MLCer, so he had the keys to how I would get my husband back.
Not only did he have the answers, I could inject what I needed whenever the pain was too intense for me to handle, which was basically all the time.
I guess that’s why the double account thread gets under my skin.
I can see the addicts lining up and begging for more.
I can see it, bc I was one of them.
All good points. I think for a time, we all seek to get our “fix“ but hopefully as time goes on we grow and learn and detach. And realize that no matter what, even if we had the answers, the situation would still be the same and there’s nothing we can do about it.
The double account thread I think perplexes a lot of people. Namely because it is a thread from a self proclaimed recovered MLCer. But the single account use confuses people and the only reason given for not getting another account is “I can’t commit at this time.“ even though they are posting regularly, which is quite a commitment. Which to me, and I believe a lot of others, kind of screams not entirely “recovered.”
It’s like saying “I want to help, but only on my own terms. You’re not the boss of me and can’t make me get my own account. I will post often and answer questions that I want to answer but I will be defensive to anyone who questions me. Anyone who suggests that I may not fully be recovered or have more healing to do is wrong and just bitter and their opinions are coming from a place of projection and anger. Anyone who suggests that I might be not fully taking accountability by stressing how much the “fog” had control of me is just a bitter, angry and stuck LBS who should just leave my thread.”
Just my opinion. I’m not bitter, angry or stuck. I’m not projecting my anger at my husband on to someone who has come here to try to help. I am a person stating how I see the situation from my perspective as a woman who is living her life, getting through every day, persevering through very hard times, and I am empowered enough to share my opinion and my thoughts, and anyone who disagrees with me has every right to. Just as I have every right to agree or disagree with anyone else on this forum.
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Actually, I have to admit the double account thread has had the opposite effect on me that it seems to have on the Kool-Aid drinkers. I used to feel a lot more sympathetic toward MLCers before that thread came along. But then as it filled up with lame, vague, deflecting excuses being peddled as the words of a recovered MLCer, it really made me have a lot less sympathy because to me it is just the words of someone who has zero comprehension for the suffering we have all endured. It may be an MLCer who wants their spouse back, but look at the whole situation, is this an MLCer who you would want back? Hell no. It makes me question other MLCers as well. Maybe this is just the stage I am at in the process as Treasur says, but it has been to a large extent precipitated by that thread.
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Interesting point, NYM.
My gran used to say it was good to be open-minded...but not so open that your brains fell out :)
Many of us LBS spend a great deal of time and effort looking through the MLC lens to try to understand and/or show empathy towards our spouse. Tbh it's complicated probably bc our LBS motives are not always so pure or selfless are they?
But what about the LBS lens, I wonder?
As valid as the MLC one surely.
But not much sign that even reconnecting MLCers invest the same amount of time and effort in seeing THEIR situation through the LBS lens....do they ask questions or just assume or prefer to try to ignore it? Idk. I wonder what questions a fully recovered MLCer would ask...and if indeed THEY get stuck if they DON'T look through the LBS lens? Idk. Outweigh my experience but your comment NYM did make me think that there are (at least) two types of equally valid lenses. :)
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I think it's a bit unfair to be discussing a member or members, on Acorns thread. This is a Discussion thread about seeing your situation through the MLC lens.
It's not about another person, who can clearly read your posts.
May I respectfully ask that you talk on a PM, if you have issues with someone?
I think Acorn would appreciate it if we stuck to her Discussion question.
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I am around 3 years into this process and somewhere in the middle I would say. I had the opportunity to interact with my MLCer for the first 1.5 years, and had figured out what was going on quickly and mostly detached. I have found reading about MLC from the viewpoint of an MLCer, or more broadly seeing things through the “MLC lens” has had a very useful and healing effect for me. Those of us who want to stay in the illusion that we can restore/recover what was will remain stuck no matter how we look at the situation (there are enough examples here, including reading tea leaves from responses given). But there is another reason to get some insight from an MLCers.
Observing my wife, her confusion, her shifts, her hatred, her lack of empathy all were confusing and disorienting at times. Specially because I trusted my wife’s observations and judgement. I did realize that she was going through something and her lens was distorted. But to read the feedback of various MLCers from various sites has helped me confirm what I was seeing in her. This in term has help me ground into the reality of my experience, that I was not “confused” or am not rewriting history to make myself feel better. There is a consistent set of themes and behaviors I have seen self reported by MLCers which help confirm the crises in feeling and thought, which in turn can help some of us confirm that our experience was not the one that was distorted.
So it can be very helpful and healing even when people are moving on and not “stuck.” It all depends on what you are looking for or what it triggers for you.
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I think Acorn would appreciate it if we stuck to her Discussion question.
I think we should let Acorn speak for herself. I wouldn't be so sure that she would see it as irrelevant to the topic at hand. :)
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I've read every comment on this thread and the thing that's keeping me stuck right now is the fact that I'm still not sure what it means to be "seeing the situation through the MLC lens". Does this mean researching MLC and trying to understand it? Or does it mean trying to see MLC from the MLCers POV? Or does it mean reading about other LBS's MLCers and comparing them to your own, looking for similarities? Or does it include all of the above?
I'm also not sure what being stuck means. Does it mean trying to go back to the way things were before the MLC? Are standing and being stuck the same thing? Are you stuck if you're not moving on to another relationship and leaving the MLCer behind? Or does being stuck mean that you're not GALing and growing and becoming a better person?
I can say that I was stuck before I learned about MLC. I was stuck on the crazy train. My wife would cycle and I would cycle right along with her. It wasn't until I learned about MLC that I was able to step back and let her do whatever she needed to do without letting it effect me. And I didn't learn about MLC here. I was first exposed to the concept here but I had to do a lot of research before I finally began to understand MLC. Was I stuck while I was doing that research? I don't think so. I think I was making progress towards the exit from the crazy train.
Am I stuck now? According to my own personal definition of being stuck, yes, I think I am. I define being stuck as still believing and acting as if I am in a relationship with my wife. I'm stuck because I took a vow to be faithful to my wife until one of us died and she's still alive. I'm stuck because I don't believe her decision to break her vow releases me from my vow, especially when her decision to break her vow was made while going through a crisis and it's obvious that she wasn't and still isn't thinking clearly. And I'm stuck because, in spite of everything, I still love my wife.
The other thing I'm not sure about is whether there's a judgement being attached to being stuck. Being stuck sounds like a bad thing, but is it? And who gets to decide? Who has the right to decide whether it's good or bad if somebody else is stuck? What gives them the right to make that decision? Does anyone on this forum really know enough about me and my life or any other forum member and their life to be able to make that decision? Does anyone on this forum have the ability to look into the future and tell us whether the outcome will be positive or negative for a member who is stuck? And if a member is hoping for a particular outcome, does anyone on this forum have the right to steal their hope?
I'm afraid that I have more questions than answers.
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Very interesting post, MB.
I agree with a lot of your questions.
What stuck means for some may just mean standing for others.
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The way I understand it... stuck is when you are standing and not moving.
You come here everyday reading stories, but change nothing in your life.
You tell yourself your MLCer will magically wake up in time, so you stop looking at yourself...you stop doing mirror work and GAL.
That is how I take ''stuck''.
So assuming that is how everyone views ''stuck'' then yes...it is a bad thing. Because you are leaving yourself vulnerable. You aren't changing and building your own strength. So you remain a victim of the circumstance...and even if they do come back..you will be a broken mess and unable to rebuild.
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The way I understand it... stuck is when you are standing and not moving.
You come here everyday reading stories, but change nothing in your life.
You tell yourself your MLCer will magically wake up in time, so you stop looking at yourself...you stop doing mirror work and GAL.
That is how I take ''stuck''.
So assuming that is how everyone views ''stuck'' then yes...it is a bad thing. Because you are leaving yourself vulnerable. You aren't changing and building your own strength. So you remain a victim of the circumstance...and even if they do come back..you will be a broken mess and unable to rebuild.
This is basically how I would define stuck as well.
And in terms of the MLC lens, I would say attributing horrendously bad treatment of us to MLC and therefore either just letting it continue or not standing up for ourselves would be a detrimental effect of viewing things through an MLC lens. We see thus every so often, where an lbs is treated horribly, even physically abused, but doesn’t respond with the urgency the situation warrants (e.g., calling the police if the MLCer hits you) because, for whatever reason, they are focusing on the person being in MLC rather than focusing on the facts of what the MLCer has done to them.
Luckily, we don’t see extremes like that too often. But we do see varying levels of financial abuse, verbal abuse, gaslighting, theft, abandonment and other terrible behavior that is sometimes not addressed because it’s viewed as part and parcel of MLC, as if it’s a given that one day the MLCer will wake up and then they will atone for their egregious behavior.
When in fact, IMO, the physical and psychological well-being of the lbs should always be first and foremost.
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Nas,
Thank you for those comments - what an important distinction! It helps clarify being stuck for an LBSer, when you find yourself walking on shards of glass rather than eggshells with your MLCer, that’s a problem. When the LBS’ concern for the MLCer allows abusive behavior to persist that damages the LBS and/or children’s well-being, than that is “stuck” - by that definition, I would say I was stuck for about a year and a half post BD, in January 2019. I finally found my voice and decided to stop “fearing the monster,” that MLC or not, no one should be allowed to abuse another in the name of love or standing.
I imagine I am not alone, maybe for many it takes a long time to get to the place where they can start to see things a little more clearly, when that happens, the focus can go to where it belongs - the LBS and their children if they have them, so true healing and mirror work can begin.
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Stuck to me is refusing to move forward and away from the crisis. To look for every tiny excuse to have some sort of contact or connection. To stay attached, with the erroneous belief that given enough time, the MLC'er will hit rock bottom and magically regain his/her sanity and see the wrong they've done and come crawling for forgiveness. Now that's a fairytale.
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Stuck to me is refusing to move forward and away from the crisis. To look for every tiny excuse to have some sort of contact or connection. To stay attached, with the erroneous belief that given enough time, the MLC'er will hit rock bottom and magically regain his/her sanity and see the wrong they've done and come crawling for forgiveness. Now that's a fairytale.
Your description, BB, is describing refusal to let go. Is that the same as “stuck”?
“Stuck” to me is more of a description of a timeline.
But what is a reasonable timeline?
Not the same subject but I always found the “dating calculation” reasonable.
1/2 (your age) + 7
Can we do a similar calculation with healing from heartbreak? I tried looking it up and it was all over the place. I think there are just too many factors, not only the length of the relationship but also the type of relationship (before and after breakup), other relationship connections, personality types, underlying issues, etc.
Are any of us completely healed or are we all always a work in progress? I feel like I’ll always be a work in progress, yet generally happy most of time. When I have a bad day, am I “stuck”?
Personally, I feel a person is stuck if each year goes by and there’s no progress.
As we all know, healing is not linear BUT, if years have gone by and you still as BB wrote “refuse to move forward”, or haven’t changed one belief about how to live with the situation, I believe you are stuck.
Now, I’m not saying you have to drop that MLC or whatever is real or not, I just believe there is a time to let go and live, not obsess, no future tripping, no wallowing, just living your own life.
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So many thoughtful and honest posts...
All the posts defining what ‘stuck’ means to him/her personally added a deeper layer to the discussion, in my view.
I dare suggest that the focus of most answers on this thread has been on how LBS has been, and is, processing his/her experience, rather than obsessively speculating or delving into what, where, why of MLCer.
Personally, I feel a person is stuck if each year goes by and there’s no progress.
As we all know, healing is not linear BUT, if years have gone by and you still as BB wrote “refuse to move forward”, or haven’t changed one belief about how to live with the situation, I believe you are stuck.
Now, I’m not saying you have to drop that MLC or whatever is real or not, I just believe there is a time to let go and live, not obsess, no future tripping, no wallowing, just living your own life.
Well said, Nah. You have expressed my definition of ‘stuck’.
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the erroneous belief that given enough time, the MLC'er will hit rock bottom and magically regain his/her sanity and see the wrong they've done and come crawling for forgiveness. Now that's a fairytale.
This sounds like "MLCers never wake up or return. Ever." Which is clearly not true. The only part that I see here that might be a fairy tale is HOW they act when they return. They usually do not crawl. Yet, some do.
I don't understand why some posters seem to declare repeatedly that we're all delusional about MLCers ever returning, when we have numerous historical accounts as well as *currently active* posters with returned MLCers. Maybe it's just seriously unclear writing on the part of the naysayers?
And, whenever someone says that SOME return, some patronizing poster will swoop in to admonish us that we shouldn't take that as saying all will. Guess what: WE KNOW THAT ALREADY, okay? No need to belabor it. ::)
My point is that I (and, I'm sure, most of us!) prefer ACCURACY. And regarding returns, neither ALL nor NONE is accurate.
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I don't understand why some posters seem to declare repeatedly that we're all delusional about MLCers ever returning, when we have numerous historical accounts as well as *currently active* posters with returned MLCers. Maybe it's just seriously unclear writing on the part of the naysayers?
And, whenever someone says that SOME return, some patronizing poster will swoop in to admonish us that we shouldn't take that as saying all will. Guess what: WE KNOW THAT ALREADY, okay? No need to belabor it. ::)
They're just trying to protect us. ::)
I'm willing to take my chances. I don't think I need to be protected.
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If I were to declare anyone here delusional, trust me, I'd just come right out and say it. My definition of stuck is exactly what I wrote. MY definition. I speak for no one but myself. How anyone chooses to interpret it...well that's all them.
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I have found that if I focus too much on MLC, which does include spending significant amount of time on this forum that I become mentally stuck. I stop looking forward and at all that is before me and my head spins back into the despair of everything MLC related. It’s part of why I now come and go here and don’t update my own thread that often.
I really want to help the newbies that show up here and stay up to date on all the threads. Some of you seem to have developed great friendships that way. But I’ve found that 1) I can’t keep all the stories straight and 2) it results in me spending hours a day here if I try to. So I follow 2 or 3 stories closely, 5 or 6 loosely, and try to limit my time here to no more than a few hours a week.
I also try to limit how much time I spend monkey braining about what my husband is doing or means when he says whatever he’s saying that day. When I focus on me, I feel strong and optimistic. When I focus on MLC and the MLCer, I feel depression settle over me.
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I think it does. You keep making excuses for them and their terrible behavior and wishfully thinking all will go back to how it was at some point. I've been blaming MLC for over two years now and it hasn't served me any good. It makes you vulnerable and open to abuse. My ex still has the audacity to try to use me after being divorced for slightly over two years now. No, I think it's better to see these people for what they are: abusive, unstable, manipulative and plainly just garbage. It's fine to believe that this is a crisis but everything they do, they do of their own free will. So when they hurt, use, manipulate or belittle you, it's because they want to. Personally, I think I'm better off with the assumption that I just married a bad guy. He was never really good to begin with. Yeah, he had some personality traits that I liked but the ones I didn't have been amplified x one million in this "crisis." That mindset definitely serves me better and tells me to move on and don't look back.
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It isn't surprising that you're ready to move on after putting up with this type of abuse from him for 15 years. I'm surprised you stayed with him for this long.
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Why is it surprising?
Isn’t that what LBSers do?
We forgive, we have empathy for them, even if that empathy leads to our own destruction.
Maybe he has FOO issues, maybe he’s in a decade’s long fog and he doesn’t understand what he’s doing, maybe he’s so weak that he allows people to manipulate him into hurting others, etc.
Holding on to those thoughts, day in and day out, I believe is exactly what this thread is about.
Good for you, Penelope, for finding your strength and getting off the train.
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No, I think it's better to see these people for what they are: abusive, unstable, manipulative and plainly just garbage. It's fine to believe that this is a crisis but everything they do, they do of their own free will. So when they hurt, use, manipulate or belittle you, it's because they want to.
Amen....let it go, move on, and go live YOUR amazing life. Beautiful things are waiting on the other side of your fears.
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Getting off the train is vital.
And then getting on a different train of your own is essential.
How you see their train or your ex/spouse is up to you.
I have never seen my xh as garbage even when he has done garbage things or treated me like less than garbage. I don't believe he was before and I don't believe he is now.
But I hate the train and he chose to stay on it. And I completely accept that he became someone who could only bring bad stuff with him in my life.
Keeping a sliver of a Something lens even now - whatever I call it - lets me despise his behaviour without despising him as a human being. It lets me trust my own life experience that - whatever it was - something went badly awry in my h and he became a lesser man in many ways than he used to be, the kind of person he would have been horrified to become. But he isn't garbage.
I don't have to see him as garbage to cut him out of my life as someone who will hurt me without concern if I don't even if I will perhaps never entirely understand how he became someone who could, would and did. Maybe there is a 'just enough' of a Something Lens that we need to accept the inconceivable, let go of the unacceptable and remember the better side of someone we once loved enough to wish them recovery from whatever it was that brought their train along.
I have no idea how much is too much , too little or just enough - ha ha I sound like Goldilocks - but I susoect each of us individually knows when we get there.
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Yes I agree Treasur about getting off the train and sometimes it's not so easy. I like to believe my W kept pushing me off and I finally let go of the hand rail and fell off. ::)
Oh that devilish MLC lens. Being a compassionate person can be a handicap during this experience. Yes I felt sorry for her for the longest time and kept getting abused along the way.
Good point. She has chosen to stay on that train. I can look at it subjectively now and say, well, you are on your own my dear. Good luck when it derails.
I also harbor no ill will towards her as I know it will derail at some point and she will have to face the consequences. I can separate the person from the behavior. Right now she is an out of control person.
She will drag me to rock bottom and destroy me financially and jeopardize my career at the same time. She simply dosen't care. When I received the court summons for school tuition I realized she would never stop.
So maybe viewing it through the MLC lens kept me stuck a bit. IDK.. I was really devastated so maybe it protected me in a strange way. Maybe I needed to be stuck a bit as I was just not ready to accept that she became such an evil person.
There are times when I still cannot believe what she became and I just don't dwell on it. Yes, of course, I hope for herself that she will not always be this way. :)
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Viewing my exes behaviour as a mlc kept me stuck as I made excuses for bad behaviour. I suppose I kept looking for an explanation for why he did what he did. I was a great, loyal wife...albeit tired as I was up half the night taking care of a baby/toddler. We just had our longed for baby. He must be crazy to abandon us. But he did. And that’s the reality. He is just a bad bloke. Simple. There is no need for psychoanalysis. I’ve just got to accept he worked with a woman - his subordinate , fell in lust/love with her and decided that she was worth giving up his family. Sure .....she wanted him and made it clear about her intentions but he went for it.
I’ve got to the point in my grief that I don’t care if he was depressed or was going through a mlc. He had the ability to stop what he was doing but he manipulated and lied every step of the way. He spoke to mutual friends telling them he had depression and there was no third party involved. He kept up the charade for a long time.
He was smart enough to know that what he was doing and feeling was wrong. But he thought he would get away with it. I actually don’t like me ex anymore. However, I miss our relationship- I loved him deeply and we would laugh about the most stupid things. But he has no substance and is of weak character. My daughter and I deserve better.
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Treasur - They're not garbage, well, I don't think most of them are. Just my anger talking. It's just a summation of all the callousness, cruelty and eventual indifference they display. The aptest word I could think of at the moment. I know something happened, it's just hard to accept sometimes.
MyBrainisBroken - He had his good points and was my first love. He's always been a liar and manipulator though just not to the current extent. Now he'll lie about what he ate for breakfast. :o He's always, always had family issues. He could go months without speaking to his parents then all of sudden answer their call and there would be screaming/shouting matches. This usually led to him putting a hole in the wall or smashing something, cursing his mother out, saying he would never go back home again, etc etc. Then when he'd get there the calm didn't last long before they started screaming at each other again. His mother was always going at him for religious issues (not praying, doing this or that) and money. Why can't he buy her this or that? Why doesn't he have money? His brother did this or his brother paid for that or his brother's vacationing here or there. CONSTANTLY. I wanted to strangle her sometimes. To make matters worse I think she's hard of hearing and speaks loudly plus (though never diagnosed) I think she might be mentally delayed. Extremely hard to deal with.
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Penelope, it sounds like he had FOO issues well before his MLC. Overtly damaged people can have MLCs too. I'm sorry that he had these issues but he should have gotten help before the crisis hit and he didn't. If he would have worked on his issues he may have been able to avoid this crisis. Regardless, I think you deserve better but that's a decision only you can make.
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I'm a coach by trade so I like good questions.
Sometimes the most powerful questions seem simple at first bite but stick with us somehow and keep prodding us.
I think this thread question is one of those for me bc it won't go away entirely. It is sitting gurgling at the back of my brain lol. When the gurgling stops, I'll post on my own thread rather than sucking up space here.
But a thought occurred to me earlier today....if MLC is the answer, what is the question?
Or questions?
(By MLC I mean something mentally/emotionally that happened that turned my h into someone unrecognisable, not very rational and pretty unpleasant to deal with....it's a shorthand label bc I honestly don't know what it was :) )
I have a sense that we get stuck in it when it is about trying to guess answers about the other person perhaps, as we all do initially. But maybe there is a later stage when our questions are more about our own lives, about us not them, and maybe the MLC lens is the only sane way to answer some of those individual questions?
Probably depends on what your question is.....
I do know that my questions have changed significantly with time, events and my own recovery.
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Treasur, absolutely getting stuck probably happens most of the time due to the LBS putting thoughts to the MLC'er. The base truth though is that the only person who knows what a MLC'er is truly thinking or feeling is the MLC'er. Anyone can make a guess, but that doesn't make it factual or true. It just keeps the LBS hanging on to false hope.....like a mirage in a desert. You want it to so badly be true, your mind bends and twists to accommodate. Good people do bad things. Doesn't necessarily make them bad, but the trust in them is now broken. With the trust gone, the respect is also lost. No trust, no respect....no relationship, in my opinion. It never mattered to me why my xh did the things he did. He chose them just like he chose to do any other things in his life. His actions, his responsibility.
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I wanted to add something to the discussion. I don't want to get off on the tangent of the issue of the odds of reconciliation, and that is not what this post is about. But I think we can reasonably say that most people who join, post about their spouses' MLC, are not coming back in the end with reconciliation stories. They may be reconciling but not returning to the forum. But I think we can safely say that reconciliation is the end result for a minority who continue to post. Then really should we be trusting all the MLC advice we are being given if that is what we want in the end? Does the MLC advice actually HELP produce reconciliation, or is it harmful if we keep following it indefinitely? May it actually be useful only in the beginning but later on we need different strategies and those later periods simply aren't covered? Do some people reconcile and not return because in the end they found that what they learned in the forum did not actually help in that reconciliation? Sometimes i wonder if the advice is any better than a placebo would be as a drug.
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I haven't had a chance to read this entire thread. I agree that it can be very time consuming staying up on the forum. I love this topic because it challenged me to think about my situation which has recently changed (please take a look if you have a minute at my thread). Right now, I don't see it as keeping me stuck because it is my choice to work on GAL and myself and not initiating a divorce that I don't want. I found it useful to cut materials that help me understand the situation in a way that I couldn't do otherwise and help me to support why I am standing and to have hope it can work out.
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Dukie...
When you say “help me to support why I’m standing”, what exactly do you feel standing is about and what “support” beliefs do you need to help you decide to continue to “stand”?
To keep on topic of this thread. Do you believe “standing”, “stuck”, and/or “initiating divorce” are at all the same?
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Standing for me right now is about not initiating a divorce (at least that is where I am currently standing) but still moving on with your life without doing anything that could jeopardize a potential reconciliation (ie dating) as well as spending time really working through how you got to this point (although I feel I will always be doing this now).
I believe standing is tied to wanting a reconciliation so it depends on where you are at.... Pre divorce or post divorce. I don't think one is standing if they are initiating a divorce unless there are other reasons you need to do it, e.g. Financial, physical/emotional abuse.
Stuck is not moving on with your life while standing for a reconciliation in my opinion.
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I have always treated MLC a little like post partum depression. (Only from what I have read about it rather than experience.) If a new mom (or dad) doesn’t bond with or care for their baby and in fact thinks their baby is better off without them then it is useful to view this through post partum depression lens. It can last a few months to a few years. If not using that lens you would think of the baby’s parent as uncaring, self centred, unreasonable etc.
This behaviour my H is going through has caused a crisis in our family, he is at middle age and acting the opposite of how he did for over 20 years of me knowing him. It was reasonable to look in to MLC because of this and I found he has followed the same path as a lot of others seem to. Viewing this crisis through the MLC lens has been useful for a lot of reasons, probably mainly to know I am not myself going mad and that I can in fact trust my own gut, mind and judgement. For me the lens has been useful and I don’t feel it has kept me stuck for long. Recently I have been thinking of MLC like torture and MLC or not there is only so much I would tolerate to feel I had tried my best for my family. Just like the baby with post partum depression parent none of this is their fault but they need to not be neglected whatever the reason surrounding it.
Sorry I got interrupted half way through that hope it still makes sense!
Interested in NYM’s placebo question. With all the excellent advice and knowledge on here it is surprising that we don’t navigate this MLC better and with more reconciliations if that is the aim of the site, then again maybe all this advice is keeping more families together than would have otherwise, difficult to know.
Rose 🌹
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I wanted to add something to the discussion. I don't want to get off on the tangent of the issue of the odds of reconciliation, and that is not what this post is about. But I think we can reasonably say that most people who join, post about their spouses' MLC, are not coming back in the end with reconciliation stories. They may be reconciling but not returning to the forum. But I think we can safely say that reconciliation is the end result for a minority who continue to post. Then really should we be trusting all the MLC advice we are being given if that is what we want in the end? Does the MLC advice actually HELP produce reconciliation, or is it harmful if we keep following it indefinitely? May it actually be useful only in the beginning but later on we need different strategies and those later periods simply aren't covered? Do some people reconcile and not return because in the end they found that what they learned in the forum did not actually help in that reconciliation? Sometimes i wonder if the advice is any better than a placebo would be as a drug.
Excellent questions and thought provoking topic that I'd love to see explored further.
Lp
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I wanted to add something to the discussion. I don't want to get off on the tangent of the issue of the odds of reconciliation, and that is not what this post is about. But I think we can reasonably say that most people who join, post about their spouses' MLC, are not coming back in the end with reconciliation stories. They may be reconciling but not returning to the forum. But I think we can safely say that reconciliation is the end result for a minority who continue to post. Then really should we be trusting all the MLC advice we are being given if that is what we want in the end? Does the MLC advice actually HELP produce reconciliation, or is it harmful if we keep following it indefinitely? May it actually be useful only in the beginning but later on we need different strategies and those later periods simply aren't covered? Do some people reconcile and not return because in the end they found that what they learned in the forum did not actually help in that reconciliation? Sometimes i wonder if the advice is any better than a placebo would be as a drug.
Excellent questions and thought provoking topic that I'd love to see explored further.
Lp
Interesting questions. My personal opinion is that the advice is good at the beginning, but there indeed does come a time when intuition and self-respect come into play. I mean, we are told to NOT focus on the MLCer after all. But that doesn't always happen. I think, through the "process," some people might become enlightened to the fact their marriages were not what they thought they were. That maybe, life CAN go on without their MLCer. But there are also some who cling so hard to the past and are so very broken (I am NOT judging bc I have been here too!), that they cannot let go and cling to the hope of reconciliation. And literally nothing else will do for them. And that is their choice. I personally cannot go on like that. I love my H dearly....in his previous form though. I kinda can't stand him now. He's a narcissistic a$$hat. Hard to imagine reconciling ever with this person. I'm not even compelled to reach out to him most days now, which is a major step for me.
Anyway,is the advice helpful or harmful to the possibility of reconciliation? My take is that it truly depends on what the person does with it. Ultimately my take from some of veterans here is to go out and find myself and work on the one person I can control--me. Not focus at all on the MLCer. Not so easy with a small child. But I'm getting better. And realizing that I deserve better. What that means and how that looks is not clear right now. I know it is NOT my MLCer though. Not now. And maybe not ever. And I am getting to be ok with that.
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But I think we can reasonably say that most people who join, post about their spouses' MLC, are not coming back in the end with reconciliation stories. They may be reconciling but not returning to the forum. But I think we can safely say that reconciliation is the end result for a minority who continue to post.
There may be some members who have reconciled and not posting about it. I’d say it is safe to conjecture that there may be a similar proportion (count purple threads vs white on HS and compare) of old time members that have separated but have not returned to talk about it.
To explain that point further, I am going to apply the above quote for ‘the other side.’
But I think we can reasonably say that most people who join, post about their spouses’ MLC, are not coming back in the end with separation stories. They may be separated but not returning to the forum. But I think we can safely say that separation/divorce is the end result for a minority who continue to post.
Anecdotes of RL reconciliation/separation are neither here, nor there. Except, it serves the person who quotes them.
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Hello,
The questions are fair, but also there are limited resources. Be reminded that while we have approximately 4,000 members on HS, how many active threads are going at any given time? 20 to 30?
There are in the US 84,000,000 adults ages 40-60 (Doesn't cover the entire spectrum of the MLC age, but does give us a solid number to work with). I read an article from Atlantic Monthly that states 10-20 percent of all adults will undergo MLC. That means approximately eight to sixteen million people in the US are having MLC right now. The sheer numbers alone really does not provide us a quantitative sample and a limited qualitative sample as well.
There are also 876,000 divorces each year. Many marriage counselors will state that their low statistics are due to the fact that many couples wait until it is too late to start counseling and one or both of the partners are already done and basically attend counseling as a "we tried" excuse before they end the marriage. Does that mean the advice given by the counselors is poor? I don't know.
My marriage did not reconcile and I was divorced. Does than mean the advice I give is inadequate or poor- it all depends on the person receiving it. Maybe I helped one person shift from one of complete loss to one of I will survive this mess. To me, that is a success.
After all, I have never met the MLCer. I don't provide advice or hear their side of the story. Maybe the forum would be different if we had both MLCers and LBSers. Talk about the fireworks then.
Many people come onto the forum and leave without ever posting. We don't know the results either. Many post a couple of times and then leave-no results either. Many are just simply overwhelmed with life and don't have the time to post or feel that there is nothing to post.
Success stories are rare. I would suggest that many stop posting regularly because as they reconcile, they don't want to be with their spouse and posting on a forum about that spouse- good or bad.
"Hello honey, what are you writing?"
"Oh nothing, just some quick lines about you and your crisis."
Not a good idea for reconciliation stories.
As for me, I try to concentrate on the newbies and helping them start to work on themselves. I rarely post on reconciliation as I have no experience to offer or refer back to in providing any advice other than basic encouragement. It was just recently my ex called me and apologized. We have spoken one more time since then...it wasn't one of a loving couple, but the conversation was respectful and kind on both sides. Maybe that is a start of a reconciliation of sorts. I'm not going back, but at least we can go forward with peace in our hearts.
So, I am going to ask, if we changed things.....what would we do differently? What would be the one thing that we could shift that would give us the results we seek? It is always easy to identify the problem but not so easy to solve.
Something to ponder.....
((((Ready))))
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I would love to see this on a spin off thread and the discussion on just this continue....
I wanted to add something to the discussion. I don't want to get off on the tangent of the issue of the odds of reconciliation, and that is not what this post is about. But I think we can reasonably say that most people who join, post about their spouses' MLC, are not coming back in the end with reconciliation stories. They may be reconciling but not returning to the forum. But I think we can safely say that reconciliation is the end result for a minority who continue to post. Then really should we be trusting all the MLC advice we are being given if that is what we want in the end? Does the MLC advice actually HELP produce reconciliation, or is it harmful if we keep following it indefinitely? May it actually be useful only in the beginning but later on we need different strategies and those later periods simply aren't covered? Do some people reconcile and not return because in the end they found that what they learned in the forum did not actually help in that reconciliation? Sometimes i wonder if the advice is any better than a placebo would be as a drug.
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With apologies to Acorn as I don't wish to trample on her discussion topic. I would like to ask NYM if she would/could at some point add a bit to her post so that I am clear on her thoughts before I add my post so I don't go somewhere she didn't intend if she is interested.
These questions to me go to theory rather than a direct move to what may be could or should be changed, but to differences in type, stage, and circumstances.
Lp
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No need to apologize, LP.
This discussion thread belongs to everyone and I’m merely the thread starter.
The advices given here can be interpreted solely through the MLC lens, and may yield serious consequences, some even negative. So, NYM’s questions are definitely relevant to the topic at hand.
I, too, would like additional details on the question in order to delve into them further.
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I'd like to keep it on Acorn's thread for several reasons. First of all, Acorn and I have been discussing various related topics between the two of us for several months now and so these thoughts are inspired as much from that discussion as it is from my own mind. Secondly, I am going to have limited access to the site over the next few weeks so I don't want the responsibility of a thread at the moment.
That said, I think it is simply that we have a lot of dogmatic advice given to us here but there is no empirical evidence it works. There's a lot of conventional wisdom out there too that may just be old wive's tales. We don't have studies of if you do this, the MLCer will do that, or not.
I will give you one example that comes to mind. A lot of people believe that the MLCer will want to come back when they feel the LBSer pull away. Off the top of my head, this is something I believe that BBHelp and Stayed (among many others) has said happened in their cases. Watcher recently filed for divorce and he admittedly expected that his wife might panic and start turning back once he did that, but she didn't. Does that mean the conventional wisdom is wrong, is his wife an outlier, is it a matter of the timing of the pulling away?
Why are we supposed to trust the advice over our own instinct, wishes and common sense? Does following the advice cause more mental strain than just doing whatever we want and feels best?
Until now, I see a lot of advice about what we should do but very little that we can consistently say that the LBS did and the MLCer came back (and many other LBSes may have done the same thing and they didn't come back).
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I will give you one example that comes to mind. A lot of people believe that the MLCer will want to come back when they feel the MLCer pull away. Off the top of my head, this is something I believe that BBHelp and Stayed (among many others) has said happened in their cases. Watcher recently filed for divorce and he admittedly expected that his wife might panic and start turning back once he did that, but she didn't. Does that mean the conventional wisdom is wrong, is his wife an outlier, is it a matter of the timing of the pulling away?
If someone posts that X happened in their case, or that in their opinion Z, that is anecdotable evidence of Y amount of people, not the entire forum. And in my experience, the post goes more like "The MLC may insert themselves back into LBS's life when they feel the LBS pulling away" indicating a possible boomerang situation. Most of the standing advice is simply to keep the LBS from destroying any chance of reconnection, reconciliation IF THEY WANT THAT. MOst of the main advice is "Take care of yourself", which, IMO, is beyond valuable to someone who just got their entire world knocked off kilter.
The only posts I find dubiously dangerous are the one where someone will state emphatically that X thing IS, when that statement was really only an opinion. Or say that they have a better chance because their MLCer is home, as if those who don't have one at home are somehow less likely to re-connect/ reconcile. Or when someone recommends being a doormat under the guise of kumbaya for the MLCer.
I suppose there are some here who want the step by step guide to getting your partner back. That's available online from a whole host of sources and is so successful MLC is now extinct!! Oh, it's not? How about that.....
I think some post to see if we can help someone the way someone else helped us, to pay it forward. Some need a place to talk through thoughts and maybe get some feedback as they grow. Some want to see if the re-connection was worth it (there are some stories here that make me think, NOPE). Maybe some people care more about finding kindred spirits than finding that magic way back to their marriage. I'd like more specific examples of advice that is dangerous, or harmful.
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Imho rational advice over instincts can be quite useful when your instincts are fried by shock and your mindset by the habits of your preBD marriage. It isn't instinctive for most of us to seek legal advice super quickly or treat our spouse as a financial threat or assume that what they say is probably a lie. But it is quite common. And often our life experience is that if someone does x and we respond with y, often their behaviour modifies to x- and some kind of opportunity is created for a more reciprocal conversation. Not always but often enough so many LBS try that but are bewildered when it doesn't 'work'. Often I think it is that bewilderment that a no longer equals b that brings the LBS here.
Both LbS and MLCer have that darned thing called free will of course.
And not all situations here are the same necessarily or have the same root causes or MLC script.
And as Ready said, we are only communicating with the LBS side of the coin here.
I guess the implied question that sits behind NYM's interesting question is if one believes that any LBS has any constructive influence on the path that an MLC spouse takes.
The answer to that might be a fundamental difference between some of us.
And of course our individual answer might be a result of our own individual experience.
If you think yes perhaps, then it makes sense to question advice that 'works' or doesn't.
If you think no, then it makes sense that the usefulness of advice is sbout LBS wellbeing regardless.
If you think yes sometimes and no at other times, perhaps there are specific situations or phases when advice 'works' for particular goals that involve both LBS and MLCer?
On the original thread question, it makes sense that the MLC lens may work differently if you do believe that you can use it to influence your MLCers mindset or actions.
So is the real starting question, NYM, if you believe that the LBS can have any constructive influence on the MLCer? And if so, when or under what conditions? And then moving to examine what works or doesn't?
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That said, I think it is simply that we have a lot of dogmatic advice given to us here but there is no empirical evidence it works. There's a lot of conventional wisdom out there too that may just be old wive's tales. We don't have studies of if you do this, the MLCer will do that, or not.
I will give you one example that comes to mind. A lot of people believe that the MLCer will want to come back when they feel the LBSer pull away. Off the top of my head, this is something I believe that BBHelp and Stayed (among many others) has said happened in their cases. Watcher recently filed for divorce and he admittedly expected that his wife might panic and start turning back once he did that, but she didn't. Does that mean the conventional wisdom is wrong, is his wife an outlier, is it a matter of the timing of the pulling away?
Perhaps it is egotistical of us to think that anything we do will influence them. Sure if we act like a complete jerk that will push them away, the same as it would a 'normal person' so we can certainly hurt our chances...
But I don't think the rest really matters. Does it matter if you shut up and say ''yes'' and ''no'' and be polite and cheery? Does it matter if you go cold and shut all their accounts down and fling them out as soon as you find out about OW?
Each of those is so purely individual to each person and scenario it is impossible to say. What worked for Barbie might not work for Stayed....
Will touted MLC advice work? Maybe.... Will doing nothing work? Maybe...
At the end of the day...it all boils down to the MLCer themselves.
So long as you don't turn into a mad hatter and start attacking them every time they show up, or spitting anger and venom at them...well then the rest is on them.
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I agree Mort, that is why we advise people to "Live your life as if they are not coming back."
Let them get on with it.
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Oh I believe we hold zero influence over the MLCer. The advice is nice and most likely needed when someone is a newly minted LBS. The reality sets in as the years mount.
That Denjef quote always infuriated me. Something about if my LBS just gave me space and backed off and stopped pleading my crisis may have been shorter. IDK something like that. Just to clarify I'm just talking about the quote and not Denjef. ::)
Anyway I live in 350 days a year in NC times 4.5 years. Yea that quote really didn't apply to me. LOL....
For years people theorized my filing would do something. Yea it did something. She dug her heels in deeper. LOL....I filed, she got S19 into a University and apparently is paying for Catholic High School for S16 :o
She has told me to go sleep with other women. She is not not rattled by my actions. Nope. I'm her enemy until I'm no longer her enemy.
My filing just made her angrier as I hear from my son. Now mine has stayed mostly Monster so maybe she just has more anger to burn off. IDK.
I do know that my actions have no impact on her whatsoever. That's why it's easier for me to simply accept now that her crisis will end when or if it ends on it's own timeline.
This has nothing to do with me. It's all on her. I love this forum however IDK if the advice is practical. Maybe it just doesn't apply to my case. However, it doesn't seem like its applying to many cases.
IDK. You really have to approach it like your going away to college, on sabbatical as a professor, or going overseas in the armed forces. A very long vacation. IDK. Plan for a lot of YEARS away and apart. Many YEARS.
I always said 5 YEARS when I started. I'm easily thinking 10 YEARS now. This is because there has been ZERO change in her behavior. I'm her fuel no matter how quiet and detached as I can be.
She needs a focal point for her rage and I AM IT ! I will always BE IT until she deals with her issues. There's no paving the way around that one. Again I love this forum and the many people here. I'm certainly not knocking it. Yes live your life as if they are not coming back maybe the best all around piece of advice.
I just think these crisis' are much larger than we ever anticipated or ,at least, I did. There's nothing we can do but live our lives. I will know more in 5 YEARS. ::)
Maybe one day she will join herself. You never know. ::) Now that would be an interesting thread. Just sayin.
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I agree Mort, that is why we advise people to "Live your life as if they are not coming back."
This piece of advice has always bothered me. For the two words "as if." It still implies they WILL come back. It's like talking out of both sides of your mouth.
As you can see on another thread when WhyUs more or less put it as "Live you life because they AREN'T coming back" everyone was so offended.
In both cases, what the LBS is being told to do is the same, but the implications about what the MLCer will do is the opposite.
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This piece of advice has always bothered me. For the two words "as if." It still implies they WILL come back. It's like talking out of both sides of your mouth.
As you can see on another thread when WhyUs more or less put it as "Live you life because they AREN'T coming back" everyone was so offended.
In both cases, what the LBS is being told to do is the same, but the implications about what the MLCer will do is the opposite.
NYM: the big difference between the two is that you version has a false certainty, while the other one exists in a complex and messy world where none of us KNOW what will happen. I think anyone who clings to certainty of ANY kind is not probably going to be able to handle the truth of a bad and complicated situation well.
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OffRoad and Marvin, you both seem to have questions and comments that would be better addressed to WhyUs than me because they concern his point of view.
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Why are we supposed to trust the advice over our own instinct, wishes and common sense? Does following the advice cause more mental strain than just doing whatever we want and feels best?
I can only speak from my own experience so, here it goes.
I trusted the advice when I was fumbling in the dark as a newbie. I thought, ‘I have no idea how to navigate this weird situation. What do I do? I’d better listen to the collective wisdom of people who have been there and done that.’ So, I followed their advice to the letter.
Once I found my footings, H’s and my personality, our specific situation (live-in, kids), personal and marital history shaped the way I handled my unique situation. Some advices proved to be unsuitable for us and I discarded them. Some worked like a charm and I kept up with them. I could say that it was no longer ‘how to handle MLC situation’ but ‘what works for us.’
I’d say, after awhile, one needs to develop and trust our own intuitions and common sense.
That common sense included:
- I cannot possibly have any positive outcomes by J.A.D.E. with H
- Treat H as I would want to be treated by him, within reason
- No one, absolutely NO ONE, especially my H, shall disrespect me
- Not many reconcile. Get with the programme and just LIVE!
- MLC and all the popular sayings are not religion. Seriously. ::)
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With apologies to Acorn as I don't wish to trample on her discussion topic. I would like to ask NYM if she would/could at some point add a bit to her post so that I am clear on her thoughts before I add my post so I don't go somewhere she didn't intend if she is interested.
These questions to me go to theory rather than a direct move to what may be could or should be changed, but to differences in type, stage, and circumstances.
Lp
I am interested in your views, LP.
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I really don’t know how I want to answer this. Especially, with my own issues.
Yes, it has helped in a lot of ways
- It helped to know that I wasn’t crazy.
- It helped to know that our 20 year relationship wasn’t crap like I heard during BD.
- It helped to explaIn to my son what had happened to his father after he overheard BD
- It helped me to not take it all personally which probably kept me from acting irrationally myself.
- and it helped me recognize my own MLC
It also hurt in many ways
- I focused entirely to much of my time on trying to learn how to help him when in the end there was nothing I could do but live my life.
- I seemed to excuse all of his craziness for along time
- I held onto the hope that he would come back
- It made me extremely soft in a very high conflict divorce with a terrible monster
- I analyzed his every move for awhile hoping to see a hint of his old self. I now know that I will see it when it happens and I’ve learned to enjoy those moments when they show themselves.
In the end, I am very happy to have found this site. I’m not sure I could have gotten through this mess without ending up in a mental hospital without it and all of you.
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Marvin, I agree with you. There is no way any person can know, with any certainty, whether their spouse will come back.
So to say, live 'as if" to me just means, look at it as if they are not coming back, accept that as a real possibility, live your life that way, don't waste your time. Don't let what they are doing distract you from having a full, happy life. Let them go.
If they come back, great, if not then you haven't wasted years of your life waiting for them.
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OffRoad and Marvin, you both seem to have questions and comments that would be better addressed to WhyUs than me because they concern his point of view.
Actually reading your post, although you quotes WhyUs, implies you are either in agreement or believe the same, so I am not sure why you say its not directed at you. I quote:
"This piece of advice has always bothered me. For the two words "as if." It still implies they WILL come back. It's like talking out of both sides of your mouth."
Its not talking out of both sides, it is acknowledging that we have no control and no ability to know the future. It is a version of "hope for the best and plan for the worst," there is no conflict in that. As I said before it is simply not oversimplifying a complex situation. In my opinion oversimplifications or rigidity usually doesn't serve us. Specially in such a complex and difficult situation as suffering the consequences of someone else's breakdown.
@Thunder stated it even better.
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I think the key phrase in any version of that sentence is “Live your life.”
Live YOUR life. The way you want, not basing any choices or doing anything a certain way in the hopes it will make it easier for them to return.
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Why are we supposed to trust the advice over our own instinct, wishes and common sense? Does following the advice cause more mental strain than just doing whatever we want and feels best?
You are missing the point here NYM. Those who want to and are ready to follow their own instinct do so. They may never come here in the first place. Posters here in general have circumstances and personalities which make this situation intolerable in some way. It may be lack of resilience or emotional dependency - whatever. We have lost faith in our judgement. We feel utterly at a loss. Some of us are alone or feel we overburden family and friends. Many of us hate experiencing a degree of breakdown. We need distraction or support for our denial until we are strong enough to take stock of our situation.
Most advice here is pretty sound actually. To say live as if they aren’t coming back is accurate since no one can actually know for sure the outcome. We are encouraged gently to live for ourselves. There is unrealistic hope or some other distorted thinking in some posts - most of us have experienced this kind of thinking at some level. Posters don’t pass an exam in logic or reality testing skills before being allowed to post.
My guess is that most of us choose the advice that chimes with our current mental state and go with it until we move to the next phase of grief resolution. Or some may reconcile. In any case, I doubt anyone actively follows advice they don’t want to. Whatever mental strain is occurring, it isn’t because we are unwilling following advice from HS members! There’s no coercion here - just hands held out and advice offered that may register when hurt minds are ready to grasp it. Some of us may wallow in hope longer than we should and continue to use hope where we might be better off losing hope. But we have to make our own decision about that.
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As you can see on another thread when WhyUs more or less put it as "Live you life because they AREN'T coming back" everyone was so offended.
I didnt say this... i said most dont come back and later refered to One or 2 LBS where the spouce are to 99,99% not Coming back. There is a slight difference.
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I did say "more or less." 99.99% is a little less. :D
I was just paraphrasing what I remembered because I didn't want to go back to that thread again. But thanks for the clarification.
The point I was making here is your advice, even if it was intended for one or two people, didn't qualify it with "as if."
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There is absolutely no proof to Whyus's statement:
One or 2 LBS where the spouce are to 99,99% not Coming back. There is a slight difference.
How many of you know personally of MLCers's who have returned? I know several.
How many purple icons are there on this forum alone? Certainly more than "one or 2"
Whyus refuses to believe that the crisis can end, that there can be a reconciliation. For some reason he feels it is necessary to repeat this FALSE information over and over...
I am not sure why he does this but it just isn't true that 99.99% don't come back.
We may never be able to accurately give valid stats. On this site, it is all anecdotal. We do know for sure that some MLCers return to their families. Understanding what a crisis is and how there is an end to the crisis is beneficial to continue to show our spouses agape and unconditional love.
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I don't want to get off on the tangent of the issue of the odds of reconciliation, and that is not what this post is about.
But I think we can safely say that reconciliation is the end result for a minority who continue to post.
I just wanted to stress the point I was making here by repeating these two points.
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Our Community / Discussion Re: Anyone else have a vanisher 22
« on: October 03, 2019, 03:15:03 PM »
Rollercoaster rider: "I do not believe that most MLCers will want to return once they are out of MLC."
I think it has been stated many times that Rollercoasterrider, and many people who post on HS share the opinion that reconciliation is rare.
So my thoughts on whether or not looking through the MLC lens hurts or hinders...
a) If you are being blamed for everything that goes wrong in your marriage - and you view this through the MLC lens - then you get to realize this is projection - and most likely you are not to blame.
b) If you are being gaslighted - and you see it in context with the MLC lens then you realize you are not losing your mind.
These are example of where understanding MLC - or "looking though the mid-life crisis lens" can help.
But if you don't turn your attention to yourself - and rebuilding yourself after BD so you are a healthy happy person, and instead focus 100% on where in the tunnel your MLCer is - then it is a hindrance.
If you sequester yourself in semi-isolation on the internet - living every moment reading on this or the many other MLC forums - and fail to
- earn enough to be financially viable (assuming you need income to survive)
- protect yourself physically if you have an abusive spouse
- protect yourself legally so your MLCer doesn't squander all the assets you and your kids need to survive
- live and grow as a person (instead sitting in your cave licking your wounds endlessly) ...
then perhaps the MLC lens is a hindrance to healing
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I agree!!!
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Acorn I'm sorry I haven't yet responded. Today as I was writing my response in hopes of having a discussion, I read through the thread and was making notes when I noticed posts were being edited and or disappearing.
So I stopped investing the time in writing as there's no point if it's only going to be censored.
Today my students examined cases involving
"The act of using one's position of power in an abusive way. This can take many forms, such as taking advantage of someone, gaining access to information that shouldn't be accessible to the public, or just manipulating someone with the ability to punish them if they don't comply."
An interesting coincidence now that I think of it.
Lp
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Lp-fwiw none of the posts I edited had anything removed or changed, only typos corrected and stuff added.
That said posts clearly were removed. Now you can understand why I chose not to break off my own thread from this one. I could see exactly the derailment that would happen.
Why don't you share your thoughts with Acorn and me via pm?
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OffRoad and Marvin, you both seem to have questions and comments that would be better addressed to WhyUs than me because they concern his point of view.
My question was to you, NYM. You stated that there was harmful advice out there, then gave an example that was not as I remembered Stayed or BBHELP stating it, nor did I find it harmful. So I would like to know some specific examples of what YOU consider harmful advice. Maybe some exact words that someone posted, that would be harmful.
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I think it has been stated many times that Rollercoasterrider, and many people who post on HS share the opinion that reconciliation is rare.
I'm going to dispute the word "rare" here. RCR's actual words in the quote you pull out - "most" Rare would be the equivalent of "nearly all" which even on its own merits is not wholly clear in terms of statistics.
Reconciliation is not inevitable or a given and neither can it be controlled. Reconciliation, if and when it does take place, will work for some but not all. It's the attitude to reconciliation that counts.
To state that the odds of reconciliation as less than 1% is not helpful to all newbies arriving at this site confused, desperate, lonely, financially affected, family in tatters etc... This forum is to help them understand what MLC is - what they can do for themselves and what and how to live their lives as if the MLCer doesn't return so that they become whole, healthy and totally free to think and live for themselves. Then, if the MLCer does return the LBSer is ready and able to deal with it in their own way.
To keep pushing low unsubstantiated figures can unwittingly turn this forum into a site for how to divorce with grace, energy and that's not what HS is about. This site is about learning the choices and options all LBSers have.
Sadly most MLCers will probably not return to the marriage even after attempts to reconnect. This is sometimes because they are just not fully through the tunnel, sometimes it's because the LBS does not want the MLCer in his/her life anymore and sometimes it's because either or both have moved on and found new lives for themselves.
So my thoughts on whether or not looking through the MLC lens hurts or hinders...
a) If you are being blamed for everything that goes wrong in your marriage - and you view this through the MLC lens - then you get to realize this is projection - and most likely you are not to blame.
b) If you are being gaslighted - and you see it in context with the MLC lens then you realize you are not losing your mind.
These are example of where understanding MLC - or "looking though the mid-life crisis lens" can help.
But if you don't turn your attention to yourself - and rebuilding yourself after BD so you are a healthy happy person, and instead focus 100% on where in the tunnel your MLCer is - then it is a hindrance.
If you sequester yourself in semi-isolation on the internet - living every moment reading on this or the many other MLC forums - and fail to
- earn enough to be financially viable (assuming you need income to survive)
- protect yourself physically if you have an abusive spouse
- protect yourself legally so your MLCer doesn't squander all the assets you and your kids need to survive
- live and grow as a person (instead sitting in your cave licking your wounds endlessly) ...
This - just brilliant from Airmid.
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As my post got deleted yesterday I will try again. The Question is, will it recieve approval by a moderator as ive recieved my 2nd warning? I have no idea why.
There is absolutely no proof to Whyus's statement:
One or 2 LBS where the spouce are to 99,99% not Coming back. There is a slight difference.
Just for the record as my post got deleted, xy, you didnt Quote the whole sentence. I did not say that 99.99% dont come back. The Whole sentence is Quoted below. I was refering to 1 or 2 MLCs and not all.
"I didnt say this... i said most dont come back and later refered to One or 2 LBS where the spouce are to 99,99% not Coming back. There is a slight difference."
How many of you know personally of MLCers's who have returned? I know several.
I also know some from our town.
How many purple icons are there on this forum alone? Certainly more than "one or 2"
As you can read above, I didnt say that there were only one or two either.
Whyus refuses to believe that the crisis can end, that there can be a reconciliation. For some reason he feels it is necessary to repeat this FALSE information over and over...
I also have NEVER said this either. I have no idea where you got this from.
I am not sure why he does this but it just isn't true that 99.99% don't come back.
Again, your rewriting history as I NEVER SAID THIS! If your going to Quote me the Quote the whole sentence and read it first for what it is and not how you see it through your eyes
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What happened to this thread? 😳
What do you mean ‘a post was removed’?
I’m guessing it had something to do with the following post?
I didnt say this... i said most dont come back and later refered to One or 2 LBS where the spouce are to 99,99% not Coming back. There is a slight difference.
I did not read this post as ‘99.99% are not coming back.’
I read it as ‘Most MLCers don’t come back. For 1 or 2 LBSs on HS, there is 99.99% chance of their spouses not coming back.’
If my comprehension was correct, Whyus, will you confirm?
If not, I can always blame English not being my mother tongue. :P
It’s a high time someone opened a discussion thread after having counted the number of posters for the last, say, 5 years and calculate % of 12 deep purple threads against the total. At least we would have very unofficial and unscientific HS statistics to refer to, and that’s better than nothing.
I’m suggesting this because the topic of ‘how many return’ pops up frequently like those cheeky dandelions on my lawn in summer. There is obviously some psychological explanation for this phenomenon and we can all have a go at it.
Now, back to the relevant topic!
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Have often mused on why someone who has access to the available data or wider community of subscribers has not done this as a research project lol. Or a structured email reach out to those who registered say 7 years ago to ask for their input on some basic info. My sense is that there are a few past posters whose spouses have 'come back' who did not go for the pink/purple option. And that 'coming back' is a broad church and a mixed bag of happy perhaps. Maybe by the time an LBS is objective enough we no longer care about the question so much lol? And to be clear, I am not volunteering!
The link between the 'return' dandelion questions (love that description ;) ) is probably about some of the underpinning beliefs that sit behind the MLC lens? That there is a process with stages. That recovery means some kind of restoration of original core values, mindset and personality maybe. That the MLC version is a temporary maladaptive version not a permanent change or a release of who they truly are. That some MLCers get 'stuck' but not all do. I suspect we each might have different beliefs about some of these things and those beliefs might influence how we use the MLC lens?
If you were going to pick say three MLC lens beliefs, what would they be? Those ones where if you logically believe that MLC exists, you accept that you also believe x y and z? And how do those beliefs keep you stuck or help you?
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If you were going to pick say three MLC lens beliefs, what would they be? Those ones where if you logically believe that MLC exists, you accept that you also believe x y and z? And how do those beliefs keep you stuck or help you?
Interesting question... My 3 MLC lens beliefs:
- His behavior was acceptable, he lied, cheated and abandoned me because he was having a crisis (kept me stuck because it allowed me to make excuses for his bad behavior)
- MLC will not last forever, he will wake up eventually because he still loves me, he just can't access that love right now (also kept me stuck!)
- His crisis has nothing to do with me (helped eventually to realize there was nothing I could do other than letting him go)
Having said that, personally I don't think I could have done it differently. It was a process, the MLC lens was important to me for a long time. I helped me put one foot in front of another until I got strong enough to look at things without the lens.
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To state that the odds of reconciliation as less than 1% is not helpful to all newbies arriving at this site confused, desperate, lonely, financially affected, family in tatters etc... This forum is to help them understand what MLC is - what they can do for themselves and what and how to live their lives as if the MLCer doesn't return so that they become whole, healthy and totally free to think and live for themselves. Then, if the MLCer does return the LBSer is ready and able to deal with it in their own way.
To keep pushing low unsubstantiated figures can unwittingly turn this forum into a site for how to divorce with grace, energy and that's not what HS is about.
I get that. It comes from a good place. :)
However, in order to encourage this:
This site is about learning the choices and options all LBSers have.
some painful aspects of MLC and it’s devastating consequences need to be told as well...
We talk about financial protection, watching against physical abuse, drawing boundaries, etc.
Should ‘a slim chance of reconciling’ be introduced at some point, or if newbies ask? Reality check is not a bad thing.
‘Divorcing with grace’ may not be the worst thing for some LBSs in order to prevent further financial and egregious psychological abuse, rather than continuing to excuse MLCer’s blatant abuse by thinking ‘Oh, it’s just MLC.’ In these cases, the MLC lens needs to come off. And, fast!
Of course, one needs to be tactful and considerate when sharing some aspects of MLC that are not suitable for newbies. They are hurting enough already.... Timing is important.
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Warning: it may cause another ‘dandelion’ to pop up.
I grabbed some easily available info. The only ‘number’ that I can quote.
Just going by ‘Forum Stats’ on the home page of HS Forum:
743746 Posts in 7548 Topics by 4926 Members. (It obviously does not include the members who have never posted.)
12 deep purple thread posters divided by total 4926 posters = 0.0024
That means less than 1/4 of 1%. (Or, 2.4 deep purple thread posters per 1000 posters.)
Note:
‘I know someone who reconciled but did not post about it’ is statistically irrelevant because there also have to be some people who did not reconcile but did not post about it either. One effectively cancels the other one out.
In fact, because HS promotes standing and we celebrate reconciliation, the likelihood of the reconciled members sharing the fact could be greater than those who did not reconcile and did not choose to report that fact on HS. That means even the 1/4 of 1% could be an inflated figure.
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Wow Acorn, good Job.
I didnt expect the numbers to be that low tbh, I would have put my Money on 10%.
10% could be Right if you were to add the pink thread Posters. Still interesting all the same.
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In fact, because HS promotes standing and we celebrate reconciliation, the likelihood of the reconciled members sharing the fact could be greater than those who did not reconcile and did not choose to report that fact on HS. That means even the 1/4 of 1% could be an inflated figure.
I had a whole thread on this over the summer and it got me in a lot of trouble. I certainly hope Acorn's post will be taken as simply the information it is and not an attack against hope or a personal affront to standers.
But I still wholeheartedly agree. Reconciliation is so celebrated, the idea of people reconciling and not sharing that info with the forum (whether by posting themselves or sending word through a forum friend they speak to offline) seems unlikely to be a common occurrence. And out of all of the forum members past and present, the number of reconciliations do seem to be quite few.
I was recently working as a project manager on a freelance job where a rogue freelancer sort of dipped off the radar just before a very tight deadline and I couldn't locate her to find out if she had even done the work assigned. She wasn't responding to emails or phone calls and I suspected she was avoiding me because she had taken on and promised more than she could deliver. I finally got so frustrated, I emailed her and simply said, "I need the news, even if it's bad news."
I feel like that applies in a lot of cases. The facts are as important as hope. We need and deserve both. It's up to us what we do with both of those things.
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I didnt expect the numbers to be that low tbh, I would have put my Money on 10%.
10% could be Right if you were to add the pink thread Posters. Still interesting all the same.
I counted the pink threads. 17 posters.
17 pink + 12 purple = 29.
29 out of 4926 posters = 0.6 percent.
You figure of 10% is 16.6 times higher. :P
By the way, I do not think anyone can conjecture that the pink threads will become purple in the future.
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Statistically, it would not be very wrong to extend WhyUs's comments about 1 or 2 posters to all of us. It doesn't matter who we are, the chances are low regardless.
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This is a quote from Sparklestar that I think is relevant:
I remember very early on someone advising that actually it’s better if it ISNT MLC - affairs do happen but actually the majority of affairs don’t end in the unfaithful spouse leaving (lots of research out there to read) or the bizarre behaviours we see. I would say the chances of a non MLC leaver returning are probably higher. Having someone in MLC is not the preference. Once I started having an explanation for some of the bizarre behaviours and seemingly complete personality changes before BD and then running away within a matter of days from BD, I knew something more was going on.
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Good point, NYM and worth reminding us of Spatklestar's comment.
Both bc of their choices over time and the damage of their behaviour from an LBS POV, both sides of the 'come back' coin are low.
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Acorn I was putting together those same numbers.
However my count suggests there are only 11 deep purple posters as Sobeit has 2 threads. So fractionally lower results.
Also note that includes threads with a last posted date as far back as March 2017.
Then if we include the light purple I think there are 16 additional threads as well as Songanddances threads that she has since changed from light purple to the standard white if I remember correctly.
I'm well aware someone ::) will come along to note that not all those reconnecting or reconciled post for a variety of reasons that they will make guesses about.
Can you imagine the number of those there would have to be, to be statistically relevant?
Then there will be those who say well I know x who reconciled or I know of xs cousins father's neighbor who reconciled after x years.
Again that doesn't change the numbers with any statistical relevance.
Then there will be those who object arguing all this is taking away my hope as though anyone else is responsible for whether or not they chose to lose hope. Funnily enough some of these same will be the ones who recently posted in the last round asserting they don't want or need to be protected.
I would argue it's a win to divorce with grace. The site preaches that a return entails it's a whole new relationship. That seems infinitely more possible if one has divorced with grace rather than divorced with anger.
I still can't see how the reality of the situation is being considered a negative that somehow endangers the site and the message of the site.
If truth and reality can actually do that, the message and purpose of the site need to be reexamined in my opinion as I'm not interested in participating in selling snake oil to vulnerable and desperate souls.
As well, there is a gross overstepping going on when a site purposefully censors, refuses to allow discussion, or says well yes, but those people will figure that out sometime in the future, the information available to users because the site or its members fear it could impact their decisions and usage of the site. A message should have more to stand on then that. People are making decisions about their future and their lives based on purposefully incomplete information. That's not fair to them, it's simply wrong, and it's ethically and morally wrong. Yes, in my opinion.
Finally, you may note that this brings us back full circle to NYM questions/thoughts...
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My response to the original post topic:
The MLC lens: In time I think all of our answers to this question change or should redefine as we grow and heal. Those who's answers fail to adjust with time are those who are stuck and hindered by the MLC lens.
At first the MLC lens gave me an "explanation" of what was happening. Comparing the explanation to the reality kept me busy for a short time as I tested and tried it out to see if it fit.
However, I was not having a MLC so the MLC lens became of no use to me in helping me to heal, helping me to survive, to grow, and to thrive. The MLC lens is a made up construct that may be useful in the beginning but if one continues to look through it, one often times stays a codependent conflict avoidant train-wreck focusing on the MLCer rather than healing oneself. I chose to look through the windshield of the car I was driving rather than the windshield of a car careening down another path.
How would I define stuck all these years later?
Stuck is a level of emotional immaturity. It can be akin to a toddler having a tantrum on one end of the spectrum and on the other choosing to sit and wallow for a few days before one picks themselves up and moves forward.
Stuck is unhealthy. It's unhealthy for one's self and for those around the stuck person. When I started here, there were a group of really funny guys. One of them told me the story of why a crab fisherman doesn't have to cover his bucket of crabs. He sent me a cartoon of a courageous crab that wanted desperately to live. The crab fought herself out from under a pile of other crabs and was about to escape from the bucket when one of the first crabs that was caught, an older, slow moving crab that had been in the bucket for a long time, grabbed the younger crab and held on tightly to her so she was unable to escape the bucket, repeatedly trying to pull her down into the bucket with all the other crabs that were wallowing in the bottom of the bucket until she was exhausted. He said I had a choice, I could fight my way out or I could join the rest of the crabs in the bottom of the bucket and wallow in a self imposed hell.
Stuck is like a rotten vegetable or fruit in a drawer of the refrigerator. It infects the pieces surrounding it.
Stuck shrieks and yells about the unfairness of it all.
Stuck is an emotional vampire, a black hole sucking the life out of all those around her as she finds pleasure and company in the despair of others so that she is not alone.
Stuck feels great compassion and makes excuses for the MLCer but viciously attacks a fellow LBS who differs in opinion.
Stuck takes everything or anything personally.
Stuck lies and uses anything to keep her fellow crabs in the bucket.
Stuck is focused on control and keeping things status quo.
Stuck feeds depression great doses of pity.
Stuck is scared to be alone, scared to face her demons, and is angry with anyone who has faced their demons fearing she is judged by them.
Stuck takes no responsibility for her behavior. Someone is always provoking her, hurting her, attacking her, some reason to excuse her behavior.
Stuck arms herself with the cloak of a martyr and hopes all others will notice her sacrifices and praise her because she has not matured into developing her own identity.
Stuck is a teenager that talks behind others backs, afraid to have an intelligent and mature discussion because she is not confident enough in herself and her identity to be comfortable with others having a different opinion.
The propensity to be stuck is in anyone, LBS and MLCer. It is a also a choice we make. One can aspire to be Queen Crab of a very small pond or one can grow up and embrace life with the peace that comes with maturity but sadly not with always with age.
What is stuck truly?
Stuck is fear and depression and anger and guilt all wrapped in an emotionally immature person. It is ugly. It is everything our MLCer's struggle with and do battle with as they progress through this journey. But too many LBS'S refuse to do just what they hope and pray their MLCer will do.
3 for Treasur:
1. Considering that a sample of 1 could have relevant and explanatory value to my personal situation when there are huge differences in circumstances, personalities of parties involved, type of MLCer, among other things.
An aside: be often wondered if Rcr had to go through that period all over again, under her current circumstances with children, at her age etc how would her behavior and focus change if at all? How would her writing and advice change if at all? Would she still have time to put heart stickers in his vehicle while her children ran about around her? Would she still let him move out and in a bunch of times? Would there be new articles about the message of standing to children? What if he became a Vanisher instead of a Clinger, how would that change her writing if at all?
2. Thinking that if i just learned enough about MLC I would heal and be able to move forward. That somehow all this would make sense. That was my ego not my brain that had to be addressed.
3. That I needed him to live a happy, fulfilling, successful, productive life.
Numbers 1 and 3 fell within a week. My ego was more stubborn.
Lp
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I counted the pink threads. 17 posters.
17 pink + 12 purple = 29.
29 out of 4926 posters = 0.6 percent.
0.6 percent or less. Would anyone here make a bet if they had that low a chance to win? Would you invest in something that was such high risk? :o
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I bring this up (or want to) every time the convo goes in the direction of using HS's "numbers" to take a stab at stats.
I am not a statistical researcher, but I wish someone on HS was, because I'm sure they could explain better that what is being counted is not a good correspondence to what you want to measure. It LOOKS relevant, but it really is not. I'm NOT saying that "there are more recons than what show up on HS." I'm saying that the numbers we see on HS simply do not correspond to any relative balance between recon and not.
There is, point blank, NO way to measure what you are trying to measure.
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Another number that may be of interest to some:
In the US, the rate of remarriage between spouses who divorced is 6% to 15% at the high end.
So again here we are with NYM questions/thoughts.
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If you were going to pick say three MLC lens beliefs, what would they be? Those ones where if you logically believe that MLC exists, you accept that you also believe x y and z? And how do those beliefs keep you stuck or help you?
1) I believed this was a phase.
2) That it was the opposite to what he had been.
3) I believed he was working through issues with his upbringing.
4) I believed he was a sensitive soul who, due to The pressures of life and work had corrupted himself and could not find a way back to integrity.
5)I believed he was struggling with aging and having failed to gain a specific high(er) status position at work.
6)I believed that love and patience in my part would win the day.
I still think there is some truth in 1, 3, 4 and 5.
A lot of education and therapy taught me that he is not the opposite of what he had been, despite appearances and assumptions. I learned that the seeds were always there in a more innocuous way but that I had ignored them or considered them less important than they are. I overestimated his commitment to me and the marriage.
I confused loving him back patiently with emotional dependency.
The bottom line should have been, as my old friend who works in mental health told me repeatedly: “It doesn’t matter who he was or what you think will happen. Look at who he is now and what he is doing and ask yourself if he is being decent and kind. And act on he information you have in the present”.
One academic view of our minds’ health that I like is that we all move into and out of poor states of mind. What makes it a mental health problem is if a State of mind becomes chronic and stuck and rigid and does not ebb and flow. He was definitely stuck but so was I. Since I’ve improved so has he although isn’t back either to his old self or to me. If he ever wants to come back and is healthy enough and compatible I now believe without doubt he will ask. I wish I’d been able to take my eyes off him earlier. That advice was to be found here but I couldn’t accept it.
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STANDING OVATION TO LP! Damn that should be required reading...
RedStar, I'm not in the conversation, I'm just reading along the sidelines, so I can't speak for Acorn (or anyone else). But I don't think she (or anyone else) is trying to take the available information on HS and attempting to present them as factual statistics, but more along the lines as a *general* idea of the odds based on the only immediately available data that we have.
Are the mathematical results likely to produce statistical accurate information? Of course not.
But I do feel they give a good indicator of the likelihood of reconciliation.
In my industry we do the EXACT same thing. I work in radio/tv. In order to rank the most popular stations to the least popular ones (which results in a DIRECT correlation to how much one station can get away with charging for advertising vs another), we sample a portion of the population and extrapolate the results.
I'm fairly confident this is a common approach.
-T
-edited for grammatical flow-
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Great post, LP!
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I am going to very honest with all of you inhopes of figuring this out. I am exactly one year today since I found out about the O/M. As I write this I am crying for the first time in about 8 months, this is crushing me. I feel like I have done all the write things with working on myself and GAL etc. But deep down I always had a glimmer of hope. Holding on to the fact that she hasn't filed her response which was due today or that we talked for the first time a few weeks ago. To you name it I am sure most of you at one point had it.
Looking at it now I am a little mad at the fact I could have been sold some more truth maybe I would be farthere along ? I don't know the answer to that. But I do believe that IF we are being sold some BS that it should be addressed. I should have facts to back up how I am choosing to feel. I am angry that I will miss the holidays with my kids this year. That she can going travel and smile like everything is going great.
I am really putting myself out there as far as being nice to her and letting her know the door is open. Maybe I am just a sucker? What I do know is that this thread has reallly stired something up in me to be at work crying and typing away. Maybe this all needed to come out and some good will come out of it. Just an FYI, When I read all of the info here on the site and other sites not just here. I would have assumed my chances where 70/30 to the positive side. I feel like I just got kicked in the gut again!
I just wanted to write this from someone that is fairly new and had a lot of hopium.
Thank's to you all I don't know what I would be doing without all of your support.
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I counted the pink threads. 17 posters.
17 pink + 12 purple = 29.
29 out of 4926 posters = 0.6 percent.
0.6 percent or less. Would anyone here make a bet if they had that low a chance to win? Would you invest in something that was such high risk? :o
People buy lottery tickets every day.
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I counted the pink threads. 17 posters.
17 pink + 12 purple = 29.
29 out of 4926 posters = 0.6 percent.
0.6 percent or less. Would anyone here make a bet if they had that low a chance to win? Would you invest in something that was such high risk? :o
People buy lottery tickets every day.
Exactly. And how wise of an investment does that turn out to be?
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Shoot, LP, I counted wrong! ;D
Thank you for your insightful post.
I am not a statistical researcher, but I wish someone on HS was, because I'm sure they could explain better that what is being counted is not a good correspondence to what you want to measure. It LOOKS relevant, but it really is not. I'm NOT saying that "there are more recons than what show up on HS." I'm saying that the numbers we see on HS simply do not correspond to any relative balance between recon and not.
‘It LOOKS relevant, but it really is not.’ To make this statement, you are sure to know what ‘really is’ relevant. Could you please elaborate?
‘The numbers ...... do not correspond to any relative balance between recon and not’. To make this statement, you are sure to know what ‘relative balance between recon and not’ constitutes. Could you please elaborate?
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In the United States only 0.5 percent of the population has run a marathon. ::) Those reconnection odds are slightly better. Just sayin. ;)
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I counted the pink threads. 17 posters.
17 pink + 12 purple = 29.
29 out of 4926 posters = 0.6 percent.
0.6 percent or less. Would anyone here make a bet if they had that low a chance to win? Would you invest in something that was such high risk? :o
People buy lottery tickets every day.
Exactly. And how wise of an investment does that turn out to be?
To play devil's advocate: VERY well for a select few.
I think LP said it best and is something that I think like minded individuals have been struggling to find the right words to say during all these "what are the odds" debates:
Knowing the truth about the unlikelihood of reconciliation should NOT impact your HOPE.
However, knowing the truth about the unlikelihood of reconciliation should NOT be an excuse for you to not take action to protect yourself.
Every so often these "what are the odds" debates comes up. The fact is, we don't have accurate information, period. But based on anecdotal evidence it seems overwhelming clear that the chances are low. We just don't know HOW low.
It just *appears* to me (and maybe a few others as well), that a select few posters just don't want that information posted. The position seems to be that it is irreverent, and potentially harming to the message of the site.
Then there are the posters that feel as I do: The information needs to be made readily available, as uncomfortable as it may be. In my mind it is IMPERATIVE that new members who are hurting, desperate, and possibly highly open to suggestion be made aware of ALL available information. it is up to THEM to decide what to do with that information. But I believe pretty much as WhyUs does...trying to conceal the fact that the desired outcome is unlikely for almost every single one who arrives here is DANGEROUS. This is no joke. This is people's lives we are talking about.
Again, the information presented should not impact ones hope. They aren't mutually exclusive. Yet is seems to me, some posters think they are.
-T
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I DO agreee with you TN it should be up to us how we digest it. Though to be honest I did gobble up Shock SIS post and ignored anyone that said anythinbg on the contrary to what I wanted to hear. But that was my fault and my decision.
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I DO agreee with you TN it should be up to us how we digest it. Though to be honest I did gobble up Shock SIS post and ignored anyone that said anythinbg on the contrary to what I wanted to hear. But that was my fault and my decision.
Don't feel bad Father5. I think its pretty normal and I believe many of us read more into something than was actually there, or got laser focused on information that aligned with our hopes in the beginning.
Again, I can't speak for LP, but I think maybe that is what she meant by as time progresses or views and opinions often change with regards to MLC.
-T
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So again here we are with NYM questions/thoughts.
If we take Acorn's stats as true, then for most people, the advice here on what will lead to reconciliation is irrelevant. No matter what one does, the chances are they aren't going to reconcile.
However, I still feel that those who reconcile still have certain characteristics in common. Those characteristics may be necessary for reconciliation to take place, but they are not a guarantee that it will take place.
I am going to quote RCR here and I know that I will probably get slapped down by someone for saying this. But this is something RCR once wrote. She actually emailed members to do a reconciliation survey. She found that every single reconciliation story involved a clinging boomerang. The numbers were still small. I am sure it was no more than a dozen, but still they all were of a single contact type.
That doesn't mean a clinging boomerang is a guarantee of reconciliation, but it suggests that any other type is going to have an even lower chance than a clinging boomerang.
Now it would be interesting to do a statistical analysis of contact types of MLCers to see the relative percentages of different types.
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I'm going to play devil's advocate here about the stats, from two angles.
1. Could it be those of us who are members of the forum actually are dealing with worse cases than average of MLCers, hence our need for the support and the lower reconciliation rates?
2. We are a select group who mostly want to keep our spouses. But could the rates of reconciliation actually be lower in the general population because if someone decides to dump their MLCer immediately and move on with their lives, they aren't going to bother to join a forum like this?
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If we take Acorn's stats as true,
Sorry, not my stats. HS’s. Therefore, RCR’s.
I’m a stickler for accuracy. ;D
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Terrified my gosh, another great post.
I agree with two points.
"a select few posters just don't want that information posted. The position seems to be that it is irreverent, and potentially harming to the message of the site"
Like OP says, Knowledge is Power.
"the information presented should not impact ones hope."
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I meant the stats calculated by Acorn.
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I have to admit I have always been very laser focused on reconciliation stories as opposed to the general advice given in the forum. Not for the hope, but to be honest, from a strategic perspective. These are people who clearly beat the odds, so is there something we can learn from them and only them?
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I DO agreee with you TN it should be up to us how we digest it. Though to be honest I did gobble up Shock SIS post and ignored anyone that said anythinbg on the contrary to what I wanted to hear. But that was my fault and my decision.
((((HUGS))))))) Father5. I understand your tears. Been there... In hindsight, those tears, for me, were the start of coming to grips with reality and walking forward bravely. I hope it’s the same for you.
The above quote seems to indicate that you are truly waking up from LBS fog.
Wishing you nothing but the best. Go forth and conquer your fears.
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Shoot, LP, I counted wrong! ;D
Thank you for your insightful post.
I am not a statistical researcher, but I wish someone on HS was, because I'm sure they could explain better that what is being counted is not a good correspondence to what you want to measure. It LOOKS relevant, but it really is not. I'm NOT saying that "there are more recons than what show up on HS." I'm saying that the numbers we see on HS simply do not correspond to any relative balance between recon and not.
‘It LOOKS relevant, but it really is not.’ To make this statement, you are sure to know what ‘really is’ relevant. Could you please elaborate?
‘The numbers ...... do not correspond to any relative balance between recon and not’. To make this statement, you are sure to know what ‘relative balance between recon and not’ constitutes. Could you please elaborate?
I am going to work on how to answer you better, Acorn, but...see, part of the problem when we try to estimate "odds" and use "information" that we have is that these ways of thinking are often based on logical fallacies. May I use your first response as an example of what I mean by that?
If I say that something is not a valid measurement, it does not actually follow, in fact, that I know what IS a valid measurement. Because there are more than two choices here. Yet most people are easily led to either/or thinking.
But as I said, I'll work on trying to explain what I mean by what is not relevant in HS numbers and then post that later. (To TNT: yes, it is a common approach. That doesn't mean, though, that it is accurate or...I don't want to sound patronizing about these things so I'm sorry if I do, but--I do a lot of delving into the "lenses" that people live by in general, of which the "MLC lens" is just one, and...well, it is hard to talk about all this because we all have a lot of lenses that we may not realize we are wearing. Including me, of course.)
What I'll say right now, which is a separate issue from looking for a way to calculate "odds," is sort of along the lines of what a few have said above--that it doesn't matter anyway what we estimate the "chances" of recon in general are. Because no matter how many others do whatever they do, it does not impact what happens in any *particular* situation at all. So someone taking "under 1%" as their "odds" when recon is what they want is also not helpful. (And I am using that "stat" as an example only. I maintain that we *can't* measure what so many would like to!) We do not have the ability to state what anyone's "odds" are.
The important thing, I think, is how we handle our own situations. To me, that is the purpose of this site--not the promotion of standing but how to handle ourselves and our lives to maximize living at our best.
We can certainly do things that reduce the likelihood of recon, but we learn that increasing that is less under our control. It's a very complicated issue, and the overwhelming complexity I see often keeps me from posting! LOL. It's keeping me right now from even knowing how to word my next sentence. :P
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No problem RedStar. I do think ultimately this is just going to have to be one of those points that we agree to disagree on. I DO think the calculations are relevant. VERY relevant since they are recon calculations based on a site that was entirely geared for recon. Do I think they are totally accurate? No way.
-T
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I think the important point is what was said about one of the new members believing their chances are 70/30 in which he has based a great deal of belief in. To then find out it is closer to 0.6% is a huge discrepancy.
So regardless of if the actual number is 0.6, or 1, or 2, or 3.....it is still significantly lower than where a lot of new people may think their odds are (30-50%) and I think that SHOULD be addressed because people don't have a real idea or representation of what the actual chances are. Some even believe that if they wait long enough THEY ALL COME BACK (100%).
And every time some sort of actual idea or number or estimate is given, in as much as a way as we can, that information gets shot down and pulled apart.
Everyone has a right and stage to choose when to stand. But they shouldn't be standing under the illusion that 30-50% come back, when the number is likely far far far below that.
I also think it should be stressed more that even if they do come back, and try to reconnect...that doesn't mean reconciliation will occur, and also that reconciliation itself isn't a walk in the park. I think a lot of that gets glossed over in the beginning and people only come to see this information by following people who are in it over time.
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Oooh watch out Morte.
Language like that will get you moderated or possibly banned!
This is creating an "unsafe environment" for the standers!!!
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I'll just say this, if one is standing for religious reasons, then stats shouldn't matter. Whether they even come back or not shouldn't matter. Because one is standing based on principles that one plans to uphold forever, regardless of the outcome.
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Not to stir the pot (where is that pot stiring emoji), but I think we mostly could all agree the odds of a successful recon is less than the odds of not reconciling.
I think it was Anjae that used to state this quite frequently, but if you really want to have a debate, then would you say that the reasons for recon being small is because the MLCer doesn't want to come back/is stuck/won't do the work/etc, or the LBS won't have them back...
I can't speak for her, and if I am wrong somebody correct me, but I *believe* her opinion was that MOST will WANT to come back, but FEW of them would (because of the MLCer OR the LBSer wouldn't want them back). Have no way of knowing, but she might have been right.
-T
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Wow what a great thread with so much great insight, posts, viewpoints and wisdom.
Only thing I wanted to add is this: if you were given 1% chance to win a lottery you may decide not to try, if you were given 1% chance to beat terminal disease almost every person would try anyway.
The difference? Whether you think your survival depends on what you are trying for. And there is the crux perhaps. LBSes need to heal and stand on their own and get to a place where reconciliation in NO WAY is related to their survival and well being. Then they can decide what the odds mean to them.
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I think the important point is what was said about one of the new members believing their chances are 70/30 in which he has based a great deal of belief in. To then find out it is closer to 0.6% is a huge discrepancy.
And this is why I came out of my general lurkdom on this subject. (Not to argue with Morte. ;D But to try to head off the direction people can run with things like this, since I know you all have more sense than an MLCer! LOL)
People are *taking* what the site can count for something it can't.
The "chances" are not calculable from this site's numbers, I maintain. And even if the proportion of recons really has been that percentage in practice, by happenstance? It still has absolutely NO bearing on this new member's situation. His chance might be 70/30. We do not have the ability to advise him of odds.
You'll all hate me for this...but Acorn's chances, for example, are now a lot closer to 100%. (I'll add that this was not apparent for a number of years, was it? So what were her chances a few years ago...?)
Maybe I should really just say, after all, that we need to stop trying to measure this, because it actually does not matter and can be harmful no matter which way people want to believe the perceived numbers to lead.
Another way to put it is, let's be qualitative rather than quantitative. This site is really good at that!
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I think the important point is what was said about one of the new members believing their chances are 70/30 in which he has based a great deal of belief in. To then find out it is closer to 0.6% is a huge discrepancy.
.... It still has absolutely NO bearing on this new member's situation. His chance might be 70/30. ...
You are right. We have no way of knowing HIS particular chances. We don't know their entire situation. We don't know their spouse. There is much we don't know so I agree there is no way to provide particular odds for a particular member.
But does that mean you think they shouldn't be made aware of the fact that chances of a successful reconciliation is low? Again, we don't have absolute concrete facts, but we have a very very good idea of the liklihood based on the numbers computed by Acorn. Don't like those numbers, how how the re-marriage statistics LP used earlier? Or is re-marriage not required for successful recon?
There is just too many unique factors surrounding all of this, I will give you that.
But if you are dedicated to standing, the odds shouldn't matter. But I maintain INACTION based upon a false notion of a highly probable chance of a successful reconciliation *CAN* have dire, life altering consequences. Again, this is peoples lives were talking about. Arm them with the best information we have available at the time, and let them decide what is best.
-T
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And what hell did Acorn have to go through to get there?
If you want to talk about quality vs. quantity, I think everyone who does reconcile goes through a very difficult time. As do those that don't reconcile.
Except for a select few who may just be lying to themselves to try to feel better, the quality of the MLC experience is $h!te for all of us who stand. And we all have to go through it regardless of the outcome.
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I didn't come to this site looking for advice. I came to this site because I was trying to figure out what happened to my wife. The changes I saw in her simply didn't make sense. But I wasn't looking for advice. I simply needed to know what happened to her. Once I understood that I knew I was capable of deciding what to do without anyone else telling me.
The support I received from people on this site was extremely helpful as I tried to deal with a situation that made no sense. The advice, though I'm sure well-intentioned, was often annoying. Being told to take my eyes off my wife and focus on myself when I was trying to figure out why my wife was doing what she was doing was not helpful.
The reconciliation statistics are meaningless IMO. This may sound cold but if only 1 out of 1000 reconcile and that 1 is me then the other 999 don't matter. If I give up because I'm told chances of reconciliation are extremely low, then I become 1 of the 999 and that skews the statistics.
MLC lasts a very long time and is very hard on LBSes. The only real conclusion I feel I can draw, based on what I've learned from reading thousands of posts over the past 5 years, is that most LBSes give up long before their MLCer comes out of the tunnel. Posting statistics that state that only about .0025% of the members on this site have posted reconciliations threads will only increase the number of LBSes who give up, IMO.
If you want some meaningful statistics, perhaps you should contact all LBSes who have been HS members for at least 10 years, get contact info from them for their MLCers, and then contact the MLCers and ask how many of them would have reconciled if they would have had that option. But the site hasn't been around long enough for that to work. So we're trying to assign meaning to statistics for a long term disorder from a site that has only been around for a short time and doesn't reflect the MLCers POV. Good luck with that!
The next best thing might be to listen to what ex-MLCers have to say but they don't seem to last long on this site before the negative nellies drive them away. Most of them that I can recall seemed to have wanted to reconcile although several of them couldn't because the LBS had moved on.
We have an acronym in the data processing field, GIGO. Stands for Garbage In Garbage Out. RedStar is correct. The "data" you are processing to determine the odds of reconciliation occurring is useless, primarily because you aren't correcting for all of the LBSes who decide not to stand or who decide to quit standing.
Now that I feel that I have a pretty good idea what caused my wife's MLC, I figure the odds of her wanting to return are pretty good. Better than even. But I can't say that this applies to anybody else's situation. Everyone has to decide that for themselves and it's going to depend on the cause of the spouses "MLC".
I figure my odds of reconciliation are still dependent on whether I'm willing to be there for my wife if she becomes ready to return. If I were more easily swayed by other people's opinions discussions like this one wouldn't help me to eventually reconcile as this discussion seems to be doing a great job of spreading doubt and killing hope.
In the United States only 0.5 percent of the population has run a marathon. ::) Those reconnection odds are slightly better. Just sayin. ;)
I've completed 6 marathons and I'm not done yet. Based on this comment I guess my odds of reconnecting are pretty good. Primarily because MLC truly is a marathon, not a sprint. LBSes who don't have the stamina to handle a marathon are going to continue to skew the reconciliation statistics, not because reconciliation couldn't have happened for them but because they chose to drop out of the race before it was over.
Oooh watch out Morte.
Language like that will get you moderated or possibly banned!
This is creating an "unsafe environment" for the standers!!!
Inflammatory comments like this aren't helpful either.
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This IMHO so please take it FWIW and so on and so forth..
When I joined this site, I was encouraged to focus on me and my S. I would worry about where my xw was "in the process" and the attention was shifted back on me frequently. What was I doing for me? For my mental health? For S's health?
RCR warns about "stage obsession" and I see worrying about stats and what being an MLCer is like as much of the same thing. It's fine I think to come to an understanding of what happened, to draw our own conclusions and to make peace with it, which should be the goal. The point of the website is standing and that's highly personal. But the subtext is standing isn't standing still either. the forum is here for support, friendship and fellowship.
I'll challenge everyone here to think deeply about what they are doing for themselves; to be happy, to thrive and to live life as best they can. That doesn't mean dating or not standing. What are you doing for you and your children, if you have them that live with you? I believe, that if you're watching your MLCer, you're not watching yourself and you are putting you on hold. if you are putting you first, what they're doing doesn't matter. Standing is up to you for as long as you want to do it and you should be supported in that. But you come first. It's not standing, while standing still.
I also think it's fine for people to stay here and support one another as many people have made friends over the years and that shouldn't be wrong, to want to hang out with them and support them too. RCR controls the site and its message and while the forum follows, is much more nuanced.
So that said, there's room for all opinions, but regardless, the focus should be on you ultimately.
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Marvin - I have often used the analogy of a terminal illness when it comes to MLC.
Pancreatic cancer has terrible odds for survival - yet it doesn't mean that no one survives.
For the few that do survive - the cure rate is 100% - yes - but the over all rate is 4%.
Taking a look at a lottery example - someone wins every drawing (usually) - yet the chances are slim for the average lottery ticket buyer.
The issue here is - what are you risking in order to possibly win?
In the case of a lottery ticket - it is a dollar - no harm done if you lose.
But what if the bet placed is your family home, your retirement savings, the kid's college fund?
I know too many LBSers who faired poorly because they felt certain that "their MLCer" was different, that "their MLCer would do no harm".
Personally I don't care if a person stands or doesn't stand.
As NYM states - in the case of religious conviction - it really doesn't matter.
But I do care - like Morte - and others - that LBSers don't drink the Kool-aid and think that all MLCers will eventually want to come home - or even 70%.
At some point a person has to look at the available statistics - and what is available shows very low returns.
If you are a newbie and think that because your MLCer has not filed for divorce you are "safe" for the time being - I would like to suggest you reconsider this.
Many LBSers on this site didn't have their MLCer file for years after BD - but eventually many of them did.
And by that point the MLCer had run up debt (Which in the USA is considered joint debt), spent thousands of dollars on the OW/OM, etc.
The wisdom on this site used to be "let the MLCer own the divorce".
Law professor has stated time and time again how dangerous this approach is to your financial security.
Some LBSers have the luxury of not being too concerned about their finances - and so they may not be adversely impacted - but the majority of LBSers do need to be concerned about their finances and the financial stability for their children.
The above discussion only addresses financial concerns - but there are other concerns as well.
Living your life in limbo - with your focus on the MLCer is detrimental.
Letting your kids see that your spouse is out shagging some other person brings a certain amount of shame to these kids.
We like to say on here - live as if they were not coming back - ok well what does that actually mean?
It sure doesn't mean sitting on a forum focusing on where in the tunnel this MLCer is.
It doesn't mean speculating on what the MLCer is doing, thinking, etc.
Yet there is a lot of that going on on some threads.
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The next best thing might be to listen to what ex-MLCers have to say but they don't seem to last long on this site before the negative nellies drive them away. Most of them that I can recall seemed to have wanted to reconcile although several of them couldn't because the LBS had moved on.
I don't think any ex-MLCer would ever end up on a site like this unless they were hoping to reconcile. There are many sites dedicated to MLC. If someone were looking for a forum to post about having had an MLC and didn't have an LBS they had lost and wanted back, I doubt they would choose a site for standers/LBS to post their story about their MLC on. They would choose one of the other MLC sites like MLC Club or somewhere else where they can discuss their MLC in terms of how it affected them.
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But does that mean you think they shouldn't be made aware of the fact that chances of a successful reconciliation is low?
Good, you asked instead of actually jumping to a false dilemma conclusion. ;) And I will answer that question.
No, it does not mean that I think that at ALL.
If anything I hope comes through here, it's that I am interested in *accuracy.* And my view of HS is that there is no way in hell that anyone coming here and actually reading things is going to believe that the "chances" are high. Just reading the site is enough to give that awareness.
Again, we don't have absolute concrete facts, but we have a very very good idea of the liklihood based on the numbers computed by Acorn. Don't like those numbers, how how the re-marriage statistics LP used earlier? Or is re-marriage not required for successful recon?
As I said, the computations don't necessarily map the way people may assume they do. More specifically, they don't show the true historical picture of whatever we want to call recon, which as you note is *also* not monolithic in definition. And, we cannot, in any given real situation, use historical measures as a "likelihood" of it having a certain outcome, even if we *had* true past figures.
I...really would like to give some mathematical examples, too, of how sometimes, we apply a perfectly logical measurement tool to something that is not measurable with it. But I'll have to think about that. Or other members might know what I'm getting at there and chime in.
But if you are dedicated to standing, the odds shouldn't matter.
While this is true as stated...I say that not only can we not know the odds, but such a concept actually does not even *apply* if you get down to it.
Sorry folks...this is getting into the philosophical realm and that is one reason I have a hard time posting anything! Aaaaaa! ;D ;D :-X
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The reconciliation statistics are meaningless IMO. This may sound cold but if only 1 out of 1000 reconcile and that 1 is me then the other 999 don't matter. If I give up because I'm told chances of reconciliation are extremely low, then I become 1 of the 999 and that skews the statistics.
I got my PhD in a field where there are very few jobs at the end. My professors warned me of this. But of course, when you are young, you don't care so much. I said to myself, well someonehas to get those few professor jobs. Well, by time I finished the PhD, I no longer had any desire to be a professor, so it didn't really matter anymore what the stats were, but I think if I had wanted a professorship, I probably would have been kicking myself for being so stubborn and naive.
The thing is some people will come out of this not caring about the stats because they will move on to someone/something else with their lives, but those who ignore the stats and aren't so young anymore to remake their lives, may wind up with nothing to show for it.
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New thread please - locking this one. I will link any new/replacement thread.
Thanks