Midlife Crisis: Support for Left Behind Spouses
Archives => Archived Topics => Topic started by: kikki on October 18, 2011, 05:45:27 PM
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EDIT: Thread continued from: http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=1593.0 -SS
I just remembered something that HB had written about the alienator relationship.
Will hunt it out and post on here .........
Even more answers to questions concerning the MLC affair...
Do you think the reason the OW/OM repeats the affair pattern is because they were broken to begin with, where we were already in a place of strength?
From what I know, researched, and have experienced, the OW/OM are just as broken if not worse broken than the MLC'er....it's a "just like" pattern, based on the "opposite theory". This is my own theory, based on all I've seen, which follows:
Just as the MLC'er has literally become the opposite of what they were before the crisis, their desires and needs take the directly opposite direction within themselves.
In a "normal" type situation, opposites attract, and likes repel; now, take just a moment and think of this within the area of the "opposite" realm of aspects, and what do you have? "Opposites REPEL, and Likes ATTRACT" which is the direct OPPOSITE of what should be in a "normal" situation.
They are attracted to each other, initially because they are JUST LIKE each other....again, not normal in itself, actually ABNORMAL.
Your typical OW/OM has generally suffered damage from childhood, having dealt with various kinds of abuses, and emotionally unavailable people in their lifetimes. MLC'er's have gone through this same thing or somewhere close within their own childhood. So, each person has "issues" that feed the other person's set of "issues".
Yet, in many cases, but not all, the MLC affair is subconsciously "set up" to help settle various issues within the MLC'er as it's not unusual, for the MLC'er to "recreate", "relive" or even "replay" a time in their lives that need "fixing" or "redoing". Furthermore, the affair is not always all about sex, contrary to what people think; it's really all about emotional "needs" met within each person by the other, even if in a very dysfunctional way. And these various dysfunctions came come from childhood, previous marriages, etc...again this is unique to each MLC'er.
Usually if sex is involved, that takes the EA to a PA, this generally happens for one of two reasons:
1. the affair partner, most of the time OW, because of insecurity, or because they perceive they are "losing"; as a last ditch attempt, uses sex to try and "keep" the MLC'er, or
2. true sexual addiction comes to light, as the additional evidence of pornography, sex films and magazines, etc. either shows at the same or another time.
It could be one or both that takes them into an even deeper downward spiral, taking a person into a place they NEVER meant to go, but did.
Their very weakness becomes their downfall...and it takes a great deal of strength to break various addictions that can be utilized during the crisis, not to mention the affair; which is also an addiction all its own.
It's also not uncommon for the affair partner to already be suffering from various personality disorders, such as Manic Depressive, Bi Polar, Multiple Personality Disorders, Emotional Instability, and it's also not uncommon for the affair partner to ALSO be going through a MLC.
Look at it this way, no emotionally healthy and truly self respecting person ever has an affair with married people or even bothers with people who are emotionally unavailable. The very fact the affair partner would even look twice at them to begin with, tells you a great deal about the OW/OM in relation to the MLC'er.
When it comes right down to it, the blame/responsibility for getting tangled up to begin with belongs on your MLC SPOUSE; as they always had a choice, and chose to make the WRONG one.
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Also, is it true that the MLCer will start to look at the affair partner the way the looked at the LBS prior to BD. I've heard that the afffair partner will also be demonized with the projections once they are the focus and not the LBS. Do you know if this is true?
Considering the affair itself is an exact "mirroring" of one person to the other, and "likes attract", which is the opposite of what is "normal" that is bound to happen in most breakdowns that occur within the area of the MLC affair. As the MLC'er is different they choose someone most "like" themselves in these areas.
As the affair breaks down, the MLC'er for the first time, sees themselves clearly "mirrored" within the affair partner, but, they still can't look at themselves directly, nor within. At that point, the affair partner can be viewed as the one who "dragged" the MLC'er into this.
Instead of taking equal shared responsibility, because the MLC'er still wishes to be seen as the "good" person, every bad thing that exists within the MLC'er is "projected" upon the affair partner, if only to make themselves feel better for a short time. It's also done in this way to make the MLC'er look good, the affair partner look "bad"...to try and "minimize" their own part in this.
The MLC'er who does this is still trying to escape responsibility for their part in the affair when they demonize and project the affair partner, with all of their weaknesses, shortcomings and failings.
Some will also go the route of demonizing the affair partner with projections because they really can't stand themselves, and the reality of what they've done hits them hard; this is actually the BEST option that can happen within the MLC'er, although, it still won't change what's done. While it certainly doesn't help to blame the affair partner with ALL of the responsibility for what has happened, or what is happening, this can happen to help the MLC'er gain the necessary strength to end the affair as the OW/OM in question shows their "true colors" and the LBS begins the show as the better option.
On the other hand, the MLC'er may not say anything at all, at least, not to the LBS, but you can be assured emotional detachment very similar to what happened with the LBS becomes in process as the affair is breaking down. The OW/OM doesn't help matters as they do all the wrong things to try and "keep" the MLC'er in question, which CAN speed up the breakdown.
Also bear in mind the MLC'er, again, must be emotionally ready to end the illicit relationship; as the affair is a symptom, not the root cause, and most of the time, there are various issues within the MLC'er that "fuel" the affair, and once these are faced, and settled within the MLC'er, the affair partner is no longer "needed" in that aspect.
When they try to take the 'easy' way out to keep the drama down, it NEVER comes out quite the way the MLC'er would want it to...there are serious consequences for affairs; and part of these consequences is the mess involved in getting rid of the affair partner, and this is NEVER easy, nor should it be.
The total drama that results is one aspect designed teach the MLC'er a very hard lesson so this mistake doesn't repeat itself again, ever. It's not enough to just exit the affair; there must be an incentive given, and lesson learned and driven home; that's not easily forgotten...at least not for some time.
Once the "fault" within is processed, and the issue/issues finished, learned from, settled, etc....this event will be among many forgotten after the crisis is done. My husband remembers nothing about any of this, and he shouldn't be remembering at all. In HIS case, as in most people's who have suffered a MLC, if he remembered beyond a small fact or two(and he doesn't even remember something like that, as his memory has been wiped clean in several aspects), something really would be wrong; as long as memory remains, something "leftover" still needs to be processed, settled, and eventually healed.
I say these things, because, as I recall, he was struggling with this one last issue(his parent's divorce at age 7), that sent him into another bout of crisis which contained ONLY the stage of Replay. and his first affair dealt with an aspect of that issue, as OW was his "recreation" of the relationship with his mother...she was just LIKE my husband in crisis, but ALSO just LIKE his mother. The affair was broken down before the recreated 'break' he needed to break was complete.
The EA in the secondary bout of crisis, involving this SAME issue; involved a woman very similar to his mother again...but there was very little left there for him to settle in that one aspect of his relationship in regards to his mother; finishing the 'break' that was supposed to have been made as a young man, but wasn't until then. During that time, the actual memory of his first affair STILL remained, as it was brought up to me during a fight we had.
He didn't get into high gear with the rest of his processing of this final issue UNTIL he broke his ankle
Rest assured, God doesn't "overlook" ANY of these things, and the consequences can be devastating in many ways for the MLC'er.
I hope this helps, as I've found myself explaining this again in a much better put together aspect than before.
More information on OW/OM Withdrawal.....
This is an interesting discussion, about the addiction to the fighting..... so, part of the OW withdrawal is not really them missing OW, but the drama high?
No, it's not really that, either, LG, and ladies.
While a person is within an affair, they were ADDICTED to the fact
1. they had NO responsibility whatsoever within the area of the affair;(OW/OM is not harping about bills and kids; the affair represents fun and games),
2. the way the affair partner made them feel,(by making them feel "special", "needed" such as the Knight in Tarnished Armor(courtesy RCR), and giving them lots of attention; without any demands, at least at first) and
3. the teenage hormonal highs they felt when with the affair partner.(Not always about sex, but often about being "accepted" or seeming to be accepted without judgement; there is always a "childlike" desire for this kind of acceptance; and somehow the affair partner meets that need)
4. The secrecy of the affair brought its own highs,(thinking they are getting away with something no one else will find out about, especially their spouse) and
5. when they were fighting, that had its own "highs" as well as being very "teenaged" type behaviors that show within both affair partners.(I've never read anything supposedly positive about fighting within an affair; only that if the affair is physical, it's supposed to make the sex better, more intense)
Once into OW/OM Withdrawal, they are
1. GRIEVING the end/loss of the affair and of the affair partner,
2 processing the SHAME and GUILT of the addiction they'd once felt, that also drove them to what they did, and
3. processing the meaning of the connection they'd forged with the affair partner, even though they know they were wrong, did wrong, and what they did was wrong.
4. They also have to process through the addiction itself to rid themselves of it...
That's why IF they reconnect with the affair partner, the affair will start up again, and OW/OM Withdrawal will end until they make the break once again; then OW/OM Withdrawal will start up from the beginning again, after ALL contact is broken.
What drives them back multiple times is the real sense of responsibility that they are at fault for having dragged this "fine" person into the mess they made..that's why they're often defensive and protective of the affair partner. They feel guilt and shame over knowing they must dump them; but for a time weakness keeps them down.....until they become emotionally ready to break it down completely, and the affair must also become very unsatisfactory to them; they will remain in this status quo.
Anytime you make a emotional connection with someone whether legal or illegal, that person lays claim to a place within your head and heart, when the connection/relationship ends, this is grieved through and processed.
Within the OW/OM Withdrawal, this same connection is also processed through, and broken completely; and the affair person is "purged" from their head, and heart.
They also DO miss the affair partner; more what they did for them, than the actual person themselves, but they have associated and attributed their addictions, highs etc., TO this person, and so they grieve out a whole lot of feelings, various emotions, including dealing with what was within them, whether it was a character fault, or other such issue, that drove them to do what they did, and these are all processed to a final end.
This has to occur and end BEFORE the person who's had the affair will start turning to the one they cheated on again.
For what it's worth, affair partners who are dumped; that didn't wish to be dumped, go through the SAME behaviors of clinging, begging, pleading, and grieving that the LBS goes through when the MLC'er drops the bomb on them expectedly. The difference here is the LBS attains the tools of the journey of a lifetime, whereas the OW/OM who gets dumped, doesn't learn these things, and within a given time, gets into another affair with someone else, repeating the same patterns again, and again, and again.
There are very real problems within men and women who have affairs; and these problems aren't much different than the MLC'ers who get involved with them.
Maybe this will help; this was courtesy of not only what I saw my husband go through, but also, a whole lot of research done some years ago on my part; and nothing has really changed in this aspect, believe it, or not.
Along the same lines concerning mostly OW aspects; I pulled this from my Sermon's Thread wrote back in 2002, it contains basically the SAME information that would still apply today; just as it did, then, as OWs haven't changed their motives; nor their behaviors.
This concerns placing blame and anger totally on OW, instead of directing it toward the SOURCE-the WAS
This sermon caused some controversy on the thread it was posted on-but it was necessary-I didn't want to offend anyone, and still don't-it was part of the lessons I learned-and anyone can still learn from this-don't get "stuck" in misdirected anger, learn to face the actual SOURCE that started this whole mess: the WAS
Now, one other thing, and this is based on many posts I have seen:
Why do you ladies place ALL the blame, and direct your anger at OW? I'm just curious about that-or maybe that is something you have to learn about--at first, I was angry at just the OW, but then the Lord made me realize the fault laid with MY HUSBAND-HE was the one who started this, not her.
She carried some of the blame once she found out he was married and wouldn't let him go-I don't believe she KNEW until he was ready to break it off-I believe he set her up to reject him and it backfired on him!
But you see, the total BLAME for the whole situation getting started laid on HIM-and so HE needed to be the target for my anger, NOT HER. Sure, she might have known or not known, he was married, and still tried to hang on, but you have got to see where IT ALL STARTED FROM-THE SOURCE WAS THE WAYWARD SPOUSE! That's who started this whole mess.
And the brunt of your anger needs to be directed toward HIM-see what I'm trying to tell you?
The WHOLE fault for starting this lays with the wayward spouse-and you must face that--just like I had to. Your husbands CHOSE this path, and when you direct ALL the blame on OW, and put NONE on him-you are defeating the purpose and living in denial-reality MUST be seen for what it is-they have committed the MOST selfish act there can be:
breaking their marriage vows and putting the marriage asunder in the losing of their committment. And you have EVERY right to be ANGRY at your MLC spouse!
Work through your feelings, reach forgiveness for your husband and OW-then let it go, as you can't change the past-you must now look to the future, that is one thing you CAN change.
Don't allow this to wield power over you-you've got enough on your plate as it is.
More on understanding OW and MLC'er-and what they think they need from each other
This is a partial quote of mine from another thread-it might help to answer your question:
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But when all was said and done, I DID overcome-and see OW in a different light than I did before-and without hate and resentment in my heart toward her--she is to be pitied rather than hated, because her problems are much bigger than ours will ever be.
We are learning what we need for this life, while OW stumbles along in the dark, never understanding why she cannot be happy with what she is doing with married men-using them for MONEY and MAINTENANCE.
You still think this is all about sex? Think again-sex, most of the time has NOTHING to do with it-it is only used as a "weapon" a last resort to try and keep the man--mostly what the OW is after is the MONEY she can get from a man-and if that is the ONLY thing she gets she can be happy with that-she only uses her sexuality to try and keep them, and most of the time she will get dumped like a rock, always being left behind.
I'm not saying they are ALL not interested in sex, but think about it--it is true that some will be happy with just getting MONEY from the married men-as they are concerned with THEMSELVES, and not the man-and the bad part is that when the OW is finished USING the man-she will dump him and walk away without a second look-as he has served his purpose with her-she has found something she considers "better".
The description above is the OW's idea of "True Luv"-they have NO idea what love really entails-and so they equate it with "using".
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I recall posting one time that "neurotics attract neurotics" and that is VERY true in MLC-OW has problems, the MLC'er has problems and for a time, they meet needs within each other.
OW is not looking for anything EXCEPT what SHE percieves SHE needs-and the MLC'er is doing the same thing with her.
Most of the time NEITHER one is aware they are "using" each other-until the affair begins to dissolve.
I understand, too, that is NOT always this cut and dried and black and white, but it IS an underlying reason OW takes up with men that look less than desirable-they are not so much concerned with that as they are with MONEY and MAINTENANCE.
One of the first things OW tries to find out is how much money they have and have no shame about begging them out of it, because she perceives that as "being kept", and ultimately that is what she is after.
She has NO interest in really pursuing a committed relationship, she is just as selfish as the MLC'er has become while deep within the tunnel.
When the affair dissolves, she is outraged because her "meal ticket" has just gone out the window, and she engages in "pursuing behaviors" mostly for that reason.
And, of course the she refuses to take her half of the blame-ALL the blame goes on the married man who up and left her--high and dry--she is ANGRY because he is no longer there to "keep her" in the lifestyle she is accustomed to.
I am convinced this is NOT all about sex-it is about selfishness, using and obsession. On both parts.
Yes, the affair meets some needs, but disregards others-and the "caring, love and intimacy" that helps a relationship get off the ground and grow is NOT there.
Theirs is mostly built on deception, and "what's in it for me?" routine, and both don't care who they hurt.
This was the answer S&A provided to my question-and I brought it here for additional help in "letting go" of the resentment and ill-will that is sometimes transferred to the OW alone:
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Why do you ladies place ALL the blame, and direct your anger at OW?
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I have done much thinking on this for two years as the Gnat has been so central to my story, though as you say...just a symptom.
The main reason is because it is easier to hate her than our H. We are emotionally attached to H and arent to the OW so it costs us less pain to focus our hate on her (for whom we do not care) than on our H who have done a heinous thing to us. Our H's betrayal is very personal as he was the one who promised to love, honor, cherish us and forsake all others. He knew our heart and did it anyway. AHHHHHH
This is hard to bear.
Secondly, though I realize this is sexist, I think the media at least has portrayed men as being highly controlled by their sex hormones and on some level they cant help it (lame I know...they can help it...) Somehow I think we tend to think the OW should know better and it is an offense to treat a female sister like this.
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Also from HB: OW Withdrawal
Hopefully, this will help; it was a description of OW Withdrawal someone asked for in a PM:
Your husband will not go into OW Withdrawal, until ALL contact has ceased with her, regardless if it is he who breaks it off, or she.
At first, he will feel some relief, especially if it's him who initiates the break up. But what he won't realize is that anytime you end a relationship, you must process it, learn from it, and heal from it.
When you make a connection to someone, that person takes a place in your head and in your heart. When the connection is broken; in essence, you are facing the 'death' of that relationship, and a grieving process is gone through.
He will still have feelings for her, and those will take time to work through; he will evidence deep confusion, depression, sadness; and it won't be unusual for him to talk all over the place, saying weird things at times. He can go as far as blaming you for his having to cut contact with her.
He will reject you again if you approach him; and he also will have a great deal of guilt over having 'abandoned' his OW, as well as guilt over his committing of adultery. His conscience will be tormenting him heavily. You will see him withdraw into himself for a time.
Understand, that IF he resumes contact with her, and breaks it off again, the whole process will begin again from the beginning; and TIME will be added, as it will take LONGER for him to process this through.
The only way to come through this completely, will be to NEVER contact her again...and this is up to him; you cannot help him with this, or the OW Withdrawal...these are things he must do on his own.
Given time, he will work through all of this, and after he finishes, he will turn back toward you.
The process is very similar in each case; although, some OW/OM Withdrawals are worse than others; it depends upon the depth of attachment to the OW/OM...times I don't have, as I don't know how long it takes to come through it.
Does this help?
Hopefully, this will help; it was a description of OW Withdrawal someone asked for in a PM:
Your husband will not go into OW Withdrawal, until ALL contact has ceased with her, regardless if it is he who breaks it off, or she.
At first, he will feel some relief, especially if it's him who initiates the break up. But what he won't realize is that anytime you end a relationship, you must process it, learn from it, and heal from it.
When you make a connection to someone, that person takes a place in your head and in your heart. When the connection is broken; in essence, you are facing the 'death' of that relationship, and a grieving process is gone through.
He will still have feelings for her, and those will take time to work through; he will evidence deep confusion, depression, sadness; and it won't be unusual for him to talk all over the place, saying weird things at times. He can go as far as blaming you for his having to cut contact with her.
He will reject you again if you approach him; and he also will have a great deal of guilt over having 'abandoned' his OW, as well as guilt over his committing of adultery. His conscience will be tormenting him heavily. You will see him withdraw into himself for a time.
Understand, that IF he resumes contact with her, and breaks it off again, the whole process will begin again from the beginning; and TIME will be added, as it will take LONGER for him to process this through.
The only way to come through this completely, will be to NEVER contact her again...and this is up to him; you cannot help him with this, or the OW Withdrawal...these are things he must do on his own.
Given time, he will work through all of this, and after he finishes, he will turn back toward you.
The process is very similar in each case; although, some OW/OM Withdrawals are worse than others; it depends upon the depth of attachment to the OW/OM...times I don't have, as I don't know how long it takes to come through it.
Does this help?
And this:
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If there is no OW or OM then they move from replay into depression proper and withdrawal proper. If there is no affair this part of withdrawal doesn't exist.
JA's right; the MLC affair actually LENGTHENS the journey; and the added stress of the affair and OW Withdrawal; not to mention the added GUILT the MLC'er feels as a result.
They do find it is NOT worth it as they work through the reasoning for the affair.
If a MLC'er has NOT had an affair; they will generally feel guilty for other things they THINK they have missed; but the movement is as JA describes.
I don't see many who hasn't had an affair of some sort; but the ones who don't have a strong, and deep core of belief, plus a healthy measure of SELF RESPECT...and though, they have the feelings they DON'T act on them.
I had that draw as I was going through my transition; but my moral code reminded me that it was NOT a good idea, as it was WRONG to do. It seemed, during that time the Lord had abandoned me; BUT it was one of the temptations for "something different" I had to face on my own; and overcome on my own.
So, I hid most of the time; as the feelings were that strong for a period of time.
It is part of the temptation the MLC'er/transition-er goes through and faces, when traveling through the tunnel.
Unfortunately; many take the "bait" the devil offers; and fall hard; sacrificing their self respect and destroying the trust and respect of the LBS in the process.
And the trust and respect takes TIME to rebuild; assuming it ever does...there are many who have problems getting past the act of adultery; only God can bring the LBS through to a position of regaining their trust and respect for their MLC spouse.
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As the affair breaks down, the MLC'er for the first time, sees themselves clearly "mirrored" within the affair partner, but, they still can't look at themselves directly, nor within. At that point, the affair partner can be viewed as the one who "dragged" the MLC'er into this.
Not always. Husband always said he was the one who dragged OW1 into the affair, that it was his fault for letting it happen. He even wrote it to her.
When they try to take the 'easy' way out to keep the drama down, it NEVER comes out quite the way the MLC'er would want it to...there are serious consequences for affairs; and part of these consequences is the mess involved in getting rid of the affair partner, and this is NEVER easy, nor should it be.
The total drama that results is one aspect designed teach the MLC'er a very hard lesson so this mistake doesn't repeat itself again, ever. It's not enough to just exit the affair; there must be an incentive given, and lesson learned and driven home; that's not easily forgotten...at least not for some time.
Again, not always. Whatever the drama that was between husband and OW1 affair end it did not keep him from keeping being very sweet about her and only saying good things of her. At least to be and in public.
Also, he did not learn a thing with OW1 affair. The mistake did got repeated with OW2, it is still be repeated. He does not seem to had a lost anything with the end of the affair with OW1.
Once the "fault" within is processed, and the issue/issues finished, learned from, settled, etc....this event will be among many forgotten after the crisis is done. My husband remembers nothing about any of this, and he shouldn't be remembering at all. In HIS case, as in most people's who have suffered a MLC, if he remembered beyond a small fact or two(and he doesn't even remember something like that, as his memory has been wiped clean in several aspects), something really would be wrong; as long as memory remains, something "leftover" still needs to be processed, settled, and eventually healed.
My husband does not remember some things about his affair with OW1. No idea how little he remembers because we have never talked much about it but I know that there are things he does not remember.
Problem is, we remember it pretty well. Our memory was not, will never be, wiped clean.
As for men being drived by their sex hormones, my husband told me about OW1 it was not about the sex. if it was so he would had not go for a woman who lived hundreds of mileas away and that he could only see, after he left, once a week and sometimes no even once a week.
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AnneJ - don't you just want to grab your H's head and crash it against the nearest hard object sometimes? I sure do with mine - knock some sense into them! ???
What HeartsBlessings was describing was a MLCer who was moving through the tunnel, and learning the lessons.
I'm so sorry to hear your H seems to be pretty stuck still. You never know though - miracles do occur :)
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I agree Kikki...
what Hb is talking of is clearly someone who is moving forward, and beginning for to process what has been going on. Annej, it seems to me that your h is stuck in replay, not moving forward...
he will move, there is just no telling when...
hugs,
L
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As far as the MLC'er learning their lesson, they must first try every wrong turn and dead end first to make sure they don't miss out on any of all the wrong choices in life.
HB's husband emerged from MLC and although it is my understanding that most people do eventually learn their lessons and emerge I know of people that do not, and that would include my own mother.
So what does all that mean?
That we must get on with our lives and live "as if" they are not coming back.
If you want to shut the door then do it.
You always have that choice.
But we must focus on ourselves not the other person, or even the MLC'er.
Because if we do that then we may prolong their journey within the tunnel.
And we would have no one to blame but ourselves.
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OP I do focus on me and yet I still wonder why is h not here and he's there? Oh and I read stuff about ow real quick and I feel sooooo much better. Then back to focus on me and Ds.............. 8) But you are 100% correct. Like anything painful in life. It doesn't help to dwell on things out of our control. Understanding what they are is another thing. :o
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Annej, it seems to me that your h is stuck in replay, not moving forward...
he will move, there is just no telling when...
Exactly, he is stuck in replay. For over five years and no one knows when he will start to move forward, let alone end MLC. It can another 5 years or more. He will has to do that divorced. Well, we are divorced except legally.
Thanks, kikki. I don't think he will come out of it anytime soon or maybe even not at all.
OP, living has if they are not coming back, to me means married (with someone else, of course) and with a family. Not on the limbo that too much of the gift of time brings.
Don't think you can prolong theirs journey into the tunnel if you have a vanisher... maybe somethings during OW1 may had caused that, but i doubt. He vanished over 3 years ago and I have not seen him since.
Hugs,
Anne
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If OW treats them well during this whole process....I know that eventually they become manipulative and controlling but
is there a chance that the OW can be sweet and manipulative throughout their whole R and that in itself prolongs their MLC?
So if there is no reall problems or pressure in their R then H will stay for as long as he can.
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CFH, the MLCer like control..... OW is a doormat.... she "lets" him do whatever he wants without question because she is desperate... MLCers typically drink like fish, yet OW either say nothing, or the MLCer will threaten to leave.
When he DOES actually try and leave (not just threaten to get her to straighten up), she cries, begs, pleads, throws herself in front of the door, says the police have been called.... she is WEAK.... all she HAS is manipulation... with guilt trips, threats, suicide attempts or threats, neediness, sex..... that's all she has!! It's what she has ALWAYS used with men... she's a DOORMAT!!
The MLCer now finds himself CAUGHT in a trap... he wants out, but NOW where will he go? He's already F'd up his family.. will they take him back? He will have to eat crow for the rest of his life... maybe he can get OW to GROW UP... maybe, if he ALLOWS her to call him a million times a day, she won't be so insecure... maybe if he moves in with her, gets a joint bank account, buys a house, signs a lease....MAYBE she will relax so HE can relax... she's no fun anymore!!
So, if she never questions him or makes demands, is that really being sweet? He still knows he is TRAPPED!! She can't go five minutes without texting him about something!! Who would want to live that way?
You seem overly concerned that your sitch is "special"... that your husband's OW is NOT a broken human being incapable of being in a R..... that somehow she's the better catch.... but look at who she's involved with!! It's just two F'd up people who got together like magnets... it's all he can attract right now!! Sure, YOU would take him back, but that's cuz you have a whole life together.. HISTORY.... and you know he's sick!! What's HER problem??? Bad taste in men???
My husband recently made a monster comment about "I'm not going to be with OW... if you and I aren't together, I can get another woman.." and I said "I'm not so sure about that.. you seem pretty F'd up...." he couldn't even reply, cuz he knows he's in no shape to be with anyone but me right now, and even that is debatable...
Don't worry so much about how wonderful you think she is.... make YOURSELF wonderful!! If she is needy and controlling, then you need to be independent and soft. That's all you need to know.
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OMG thanks LG!! Just smack me upside the head...it's not that I think my sitch is special. I think I am having a hard time picturing OW that way (bc I know her and she just never seemed that way)
But I do need to wrap my head around the TRUTH. It's my doubt that is making me see things this way
DOUBT- what a horrible word.
But maybe if everyone posted a million posts about how bad the OW is it might get throught this thick skull of mine.
Thanks for everyone's patience and understanding.
Thanks again LG!
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CFH, the MLCer like control..... OW is a doormat.... she "lets" him do whatever he wants without question because she is desperate... MLCers typically drink like fish, yet OW either say nothing, or the MLCer will threaten to leave.
When he DOES actually try and leave (not just threaten to get her to straighten up), she cries, begs, pleads, throws herself in front of the door, says the police have been called.... she is WEAK.... all she HAS is manipulation... with guilt trips, threats, suicide attempts or threats, neediness, sex..... that's all she has!! It's what she has ALWAYS used with men... she's a DOORMAT!!
The MLCer now finds himself CAUGHT in a trap... he wants out, but NOW where will he go? He's already F'd up his family.. will they take him back? He will have to eat crow for the rest of his life... maybe he can get OW to GROW UP... maybe, if he ALLOWS her to call him a million times a day, she won't be so insecure... maybe if he moves in with her, gets a joint bank account, buys a house, signs a lease....MAYBE she will relax so HE can relax... she's no fun anymore!!
So, if she never questions him or makes demands, is that really being sweet? He still knows he is TRAPPED!! She can't go five minutes without texting him about something!! Who would want to live that way?
You seem overly concerned that your sitch is "special"... that your husband's OW is NOT a broken human being incapable of being in a R..... that somehow she's the better catch.... but look at who she's involved with!! It's just two F'd up people who got together like magnets... it's all he can attract right now!! Sure, YOU would take him back, but that's cuz you have a whole life together.. HISTORY.... and you know he's sick!! What's HER problem??? Bad taste in men???
My husband recently made a monster comment about "I'm not going to be with OW... if you and I aren't together, I can get another woman.." and I said "I'm not so sure about that.. you seem pretty F'd up...." he couldn't even reply, cuz he knows he's in no shape to be with anyone but me right now, and even that is debatable...
Don't worry so much about how wonderful you think she is.... make YOURSELF wonderful!! If she is needy and controlling, then you need to be independent and soft. That's all you need to know.
crazy, know that I've just come across part two of the love correspondence between husband and OW, I could not agree more with LG. They validate whatever they do, if they are a man of success in what they do, like my husband, the king of club scene, OW will even be very supportive. After all she is having all that fantastic social attention she would not get otherwise.
And, yes, the MCLer is now (mine even doubling) trapped in OW land. She was sweet, sweet, sweet. Was there fro him in the sad times after OW1, helped him getting a lawyer to take to court, looked after him when he got sick, always is by his side (he cannot go anywhere without her and if he does he has to return home staright away). He has not even be back to our hometown for almost an years and a half.
He already Fu** it up with me, so, where is he going to go? Nowhere! he is stuck with OW2! The poor broken hearted sad he jumped from OW1 into OW2 and has been with her since.
LG, my husband, no matter how Fu*** up he is will always get another woman given is social status. I have know realised that there is an army of women willing to be husband's next girlfriend. And, of course, he now knows we will always have a woman on his side.
Until, of course, the day he hits rock botton!
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my husband, no matter how Fu*** up he is will always get another woman given is social status. I have know realised that there is an army of women willing to be husband's next girlfriend. And, of course, he now knows we will always have a woman on his side.
Until, of course, the day he hits rock botton!
Yes, I remember reading this - the higher the perceived social power, the higher the income - the more these guys will have choice over which bimbo they're going to choose next ........ Sad ..........
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Ahh I am glad I read this again....Love how HB writes it all out...:)
LG is right...The OW has so many underlining issues that doesnt mean they are seen outwardly...She may be sweet in "public"
but a controling b*tch behind closed doors...When my D first met OW, She told me that OW was "all over the place" could tell that OW was "trying to hard" laughed all the time..made my D go :o :o :o :o but then when my H and OW would go into their bedroom, my D could hear them in there fighting...and OW's voice changed...My D KNEW that OW was faking the "nice" side.
If anyone wants to know how F'd up a OW really is...just ask me...I think I have had FRONT row seats into my H's R with her
since the beginning...BOY, Have I went through alot of popcorn in the last 14 months...hehehe ;D ;D
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Synnica,
Please enlighten me on the OW- I have read about them and heard about them but i guess
what I am trying to get passed is how messed up they are and who would be with such a woman if she is such a b**tch. Just hard to wrap my head around that H would be with someone like that...hey, I had my moments being a b**tch but really to be that horrible...get on with it already. geesh!!!
I wish my D would fill me in sometimes but she is very tight lipped about OW anyway (no talk at all about her...just her Daddy)
Please fill me in
CFH
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It's really a shame.
There are many discussions on this board about various topics.
GALing, therapy for the LBS, Scripture, etc.
Yet this topic fills a massive amount of pages in just a short time.
Self focus? No. I don't think so.
I am guilty of spending WAY too much time thinking about OW....what does H see in OW.....why is he with OW, etc., etc., etc.
It is really a waste of time! A healthy, normal, adult does not knowingly get entangled with another person who is married, with or without children. Some OW are unknowing participants. Some have taken a line of bull cr*p from the MLCer (and they can lie), and some are true alienators and pursuers.
So what? What does it matter?
OW (and OM) are merely part of Replay and are a way to avoid. A bandaid over a broken leg.
Nothing more.
Don't give the alienator so much space in your head!
THEY DON'T MATTER.
They really don't.
The so called relationships seldom last. Enough said.
Limitless
I will get off my soap box now.
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Limitless...I don't want to speak for everyone when I say- It's like we know that in our heads.
OW means nothing, the R won't last, they really aren't happy.
But really I am so guilty of allowing it to be in my head more than I want it to be...maybe it's bc I am home along (working from home- but I am by myself in the quiet) and have that much more time to think. When the kids get home from school, thinking about it- not so much!
So I KNOW I shouldn't do it- but do anyway sometimes...does that make sense. Now I just have to fix that part LOL
Your advice is spot on though and so now knowing and doing. OW- get out of my freakin head.
It doesn't help that I see her too often...she was sitting in H's van in my driveway this morning as I was taking the kids to school..what a way to start the day YUK!!
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Limitless...
As much of that is ALL so very true....Its one of the hardest things to get past...Trying to understand the dynamics in their R is one of
my dowfalls...BUT, I learned a long time ago that the OW means nothing...so I do NOT compare myself to HER...
The biggest problem in being the LBS is comparing yourself to the Alienator....because most of us at BD have issues with self esteem.
Its natural emotions when you have been left for another woman...I did it. ALOT!
The thing is...we all want to believe that the OW is a crazy batsh*t woman that is needy and pushy and mean and cruel.
My H's OW is all of that and more...but I think being a "preditor" because I think ALOT of OW's are. They KNOW exactly how
to ACT around the public...and they will come across as sweet and kind...but really, like LG says.,.,THEY are the DOORMATS.
They ( in my case) know they are tangled up with a married man with a child/dhildren, yet, because they FEEL entightled
to EVERYTHING they get out of life...stomping on children to get there is fine by them! They SEEK out weak and unstable men
to "USE"
My H's OW..( I just learned this) has/had a "sugar daddy" another MARRIED man paying HER bills and buying HER things. SHE told my H that this man was a "father figure" that HE only HELPED her out because HE CARED about HER well being.
The very fact that this MAN is now going through a D, because HIS WIFE found out...SAYS EVERYTHING!
OW use SEX and manipulation...to get "taken care of"
LEARNING how to BE YOURSELF and not compare her to YOU is important...but HARD as hell when you allready feel like a FOOL
for not "seeing it coming" at BD.
It takes time....but we all need to get to a point where "we just know" that the R is DOOMED to start...It is doomed because you CANNOT start ANY R ( normally) based on lies...The VERY foundation is weak.
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CFH, maybe this will help....
My husband recently said "I can't believe I got mixed up with someone like her... I don't know how it happened..." he has called his "feelings" for her "INFATUATION"..... HE identified it as such, so if that's as far as we've got, at least he knows the feelings aren't REAL.... another thing he identified on his own, was the REASON he goes "up there" is because it is an "Escape from reality... from paying bills and stuff...".
Unfortunately, we are his REALITY, so OW holds the position of being the IDEA of an escape, though when he gets there, he says he wants to run almost as soon as he walks in the door.... I suspect he can go there and stay drunk and smoke pot and use her for sex all weekend without any disapproval.... she's that desperate. When he's home, I no longer disapprove, or try and stop him or control him.... REAL LIFE does that, and so does his conscience. He cannot be his WORST SELF in front of me... because he RESPECTS ME and doesn't care about her... the only care he has for her is that he has used her and feels he "owes" her.... also because she "loves him so much" he feels guilty... but not guilty enough to stop using her.
MLCer and OW use each other... that's all. Once their needs aren't being met, out come the demands. Of course OW is demanding and controlling.... she wants him to divorce you and marry her. The MLCer is so darn stupid, they will often say "No, she doesn't want that... she's independent and doesn't need a man to support her" but eventually, he catches her in a series of lies, including how her salary is a lot less than she told him....
I just accidentally (just picked up the paper lying on the bed... believe me, I wish I didn't know about this!) saw the electric bill from their apartment that my husband paid.... It was for $761 !!! I don't know if the deal was SHE was supposed to be paying it and never did, so HE paid it in order to save his credit when their lease was up.... I have NO idea!! But I can tell you this... if he spent a total of 6 days per month there (in the beginning it was a little more) then he got ROBBED by this woman.... If he was paying half the RENT, he was robbed... I suspect that when she moved to her new apartment, she just didn't bother to tell him she never paid the electric bill SINCE IT WASN'T IN HER NAME! >:( >:( I suspect one of the last BIG FIGHTS they had where he revealed he found out she lied was about the electric bill, now that I think of it...
But, it doesn't really matter, because he won't be finished with HER until he puts to rest some things in HIM..... it is VERY painful for me to see him go back and forth.... I know he doesn't want to be there... but the addiction is a demon that takes over. It doesn't MATTER how awful OW is.... he has to keep DENYING it in order to justify spending any time in her presence....even though my husband doesn't like her, she is WHERE HE GOES TO AVOID HIS LIFE.... if he could do it without her, he would.... but for some reason, they have to have a woman around.
The process of the MLC affair is UGLY because it actually has little to do with the two people involved... they are like black holes of neediness sucking the life out of each other.... their needs NEVER get met.... all of the love declarations are BS and they figure that out eventually, but think of yourself as the leader of the self awareness pack... you're ahead, he's behind you trying to catch up... and OW is bringing up the rear NEVER going to get a clue... that's why all of the begging and pleading.... she can't survive without him... she's a doormat with no coping skills, while he is perhaps learning about coping skills by watching YOU do so well, even with the crap hand he has dealt you...
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Where's the "LIKE" button? LG...;) Very well put.
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Limitless...I don't want to speak for everyone when I say- It's like we know that in our heads.
OW means nothing, the R won't last, they really aren't happy.
But really I am so guilty of allowing it to be in my head more than I want it to be...maybe it's bc I am home along (working from home- but I am by myself in the quiet) and have that much more time to think. When the kids get home from school, thinking about it- not so much!
So I KNOW I shouldn't do it- but do anyway sometimes...does that make sense. Now I just have to fix that part LOL
Your advice is spot on though and so now knowing and doing. OW- get out of my freakin head.
It doesn't help that I see her too often...she was sitting in H's van in my driveway this morning as I was taking the kids to school..what a way to start the day YUK!!
I would have to say... I dont think so much of the OM so much... but I do waste way too much time thinking about the situation. I also know that it is destined to massive failure... which does gives me no comfort. I think how could my w who is not a dumb person fall for that shallow crap. Not just fall for it... be needy and desperate for it.
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So true Limitless. Possibley the hardest part for me. Last night when I was talking to my sister on the phone(her H came back after mlc) I asked what she thought OW and my H were doing over there at that very moment. She said " Two depressed crazy people fighting over where the rent is coming from bc Sabotage Sam can't find a job. " The Ds tell me their apt is messy :o :o :o
Now back to my journey..I guess it's the sudden rejection that confuses us. Then I have days when I get it she's a symptom he was compelled and acting on pure emotion. then other days I picture them dancing off into the sunset.... :o :o with an ugly stranger, no job and a drug habit! Sure. 8)
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The process of the MLC affair is UGLY because it actually has little to do with the two people involved... they are like black holes of neediness sucking the life out of each other.... their needs NEVER get met....
EXACTLY!
Those of us that have no alienator are in exactly the same position, the MLC'ers needs NEVER get met.
It is not that much difference IMHO.
We are competing against a FANTASY that will never be fulfilled.
Until the MLC'er figures this out, they will be chasing their tail round and round.
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Exactly Mama- I guess that is what I was trying to say. I want to picture them fighting and arguing all the time.
But sometimes it's a picture of sitting on the couch and laughing and enjoying each others company....yuk (stop that thinking CFH)
and LG so TRUE now it just needs to sink into my shriveled head.
I have really good days and really bad days- think it is cause the kids are going there this weekend so
all the emotions of H and OW come out, having fun with my kids and all that!
That's why I love this place- just when you think you are down, you get picked right back up again
with support and hope and caring- FEELS GREAT!
It is hard to see your H like this- so weak and vulnerable. Quite sad and pitiful actually!
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CFH, I asked my BIL who returned "What is my H doing over there?" he said "Trying to get away from your mouth so he can think! He's doing the same crap he used to do when you were together locking himself in the bathroom and talking about doing things but never actually doing them." ::) He also said "Thinking about you and the Ds." :)
I guess that's why we put duct tape over our mouths. LOL!!
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Mama- must make you feel better that you have a BIL who has been there.
I would be locking him in a room and interogating him....LOL! Well maybe not that bad...haha
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I truly envy those of you who don't agonize over the affair. It is a betrayal of the worst kind. It causes PTSD. BD is bad enough, but it is the AFFAIR that causes the PTSD.
Trauma takes the brain a long time to process through.... our brains process just a little at a time because we cannot handle any more than that. Asking a betrayed AND abandoned spouse (some of us with previous abandonment issues) to just forget about the affair is unrealistic. It is also unrealistic to berate yourself for "spending too much time thinking about them together" well, DUH!! We're not DUMMIES!! Who WOULD want to think of it for one second!!
I am NOT A MAN. I cannot compartmentalize my life so easily. I am not in MLC. I cannot justify things so easily. I am not in denial. I wish I were, as I would probably get through my day easier, LOL!!
As a BETRAYED LBS, I have had to find new COPING mechanisms to deal with the unknown, which is the affair. It is TOTALLY NEW to me. Abandonment issues also come up, so there's another assignment to accomplish... learn my lessons there!
I have written what I know about the affair (from the horses mouth, so to speak) because with knowledge comes understanding and a form of peace. When Mamma and I got together, all I wanted to hear about was what her BIL was thinking and doing in his AFFAIR!! I didn't give a flying fig about the rest of his MLC craziness.... Hearing even one new word, even if it's the SAME word from Mamma's BIL's mouth HELPS ME to calm down and FOCUS ON MYSELF!!!
I can't tell you how frikkin' triggered I am getting since I am the one providing all documentation to our mortgage lender and for a grant program we are applying for for our new home.... I do NOT look beyond what is is unavoidable.. making copy after copy of bank statements.... not being able to get my husband on the phone for further info because he's in Canada, but possibly at OW's right now, on his way home from Canada..... yep. It's a possibility. It will be a possibility for a long time.
What takes up all MY headspace is not OW or the affair.... it is scrambling around every day to find a COPING MECHANISM that will work for whatever lands at my doorstep THAT day.....
I'm feeling very fragile right now, as I don't have any physical support from my husband.... he is still juggling whatever is going on in his messed up world.... the mess of the affair, whether he is in withdrawal, or slipping...... I can't control it, and it causes massive doubt and FEAR.... THAT is what I am trying to cope with.... REMEMBERING..... I will win the war, if not every battle. I can see the outcome.... but it's not a straight path.
So don't beat yourself up over trying to figure out the dynamics of the affair.... being dumped for another person really does a number on your self esteem, no matter how confident you were before... it makes you feel very vulnerable and unsure... it takes time to get your MOJO back! Follow the advice given, and don't worry if you are too attached to OW temporarily..... I can tell you DETACHING FROM HER is more important to me than detaching from my man.... I am detached, but consciously staying detached from her is a constant vigil.
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Hi Synicca,
I wanted to comment on your post.....
As much of that is ALL so very true....Its one of the hardest things to get past...Trying to understand the dynamics in their R is one of my dowfalls...BUT, I learned a long time ago that the OW means nothing...so I do NOT compare myself to HER...
The biggest problem in being the LBS is comparing yourself to the Alienator....because most of us at BD have issues with self esteem.
Its natural emotions when you have been left for another woman...I did it. ALOT!
I think it is very good that you do not compare yourself to the alienator.
At BD - the LBS' self esteem is crushed! At least, that is how I felt about it. I felt very unloved and unloveable.
It is an extreme blow to our self esteem to be abandoned, which is one of the most important things for us to remember that we MUST work on. Our own self esteem.
Over time, we will realize that we are not unloveable at all. That our spouses truly do not love themselves and are, thus, incapable of loving anyone else. So....we must not fall into the trap of low self esteem. It is part of our self focus and our work on ourselves to repair our self esteem and remind ourselves of our value and worth.
The thing is...we all want to believe that the OW is a crazy batsh*t woman that is needy and pushy and mean and cruel.
My H's OW is all of that and more...but I think being a "preditor" because I think ALOT of OW's are. They KNOW exactly how
to ACT around the public...and they will come across as sweet and kind...but really, like LG says.,.,THEY are the DOORMATS.
What if the OW is not crazy at all? What if she isn't needy, mean, or cruel? I would guess that there are some OW out there who are involved with married MLCers - who have no clue. That may make the OW ignorant....but not necessarily needy, pushy, and cruel. Yes. There are predators out there. I would think that the MLCer who is involved with a predator will, when he wakes up, realize that he must get away from the OW.
I don't believe that all are doormats.
But, I must believe that, eventually (there is that eventual word again :o) - even the uninformed, non-redatory OW will begin to question the relationship - as, I am pretty sure, the MLCer has been considerably less than open and honest.
The fact is - regardless of who, what, or how the alienator is - the "person" with whom she is involved (MLCer) is in a CRISIS - and is, in no way, even close to being the true person he is or eventually will be.
Thus, a relationship built on lies.....built on need......and pretty much doomed.
They ( in my case) know they are tangled up with a married man with a child/dhildren, yet, because they FEEL entightled
to EVERYTHING they get out of life...stomping on children to get there is fine by them! They SEEK out weak and unstable men
to "USE" . My H's OW..( I just learned this) has/had a "sugar daddy" another MARRIED man paying HER bills and buying HER things. SHE told my H that this man was a "father figure" that HE only HELPED her out because HE CARED about HER well being.
These things may be true.....so, in that case, good for you. She will show her true colors sooner than most - or perhaps she already has. What then? As Letting Go informed me (a while back when we had the opportunity to meet) - if the OW relationship ends and the MLCer is still in crisis - he will just look for another. (She was right, by the way). MLCers have a difficult time being alone. Too much time to think.....something that they really do not want to do. What if the next OW is better? By that, I mean, what if she isn't as unstable? Would you feel differently then?
Too much "watching" of the OW and the MLCer keeps the LBS from putting her focus where it belongs. Stop watching......
LEARNING how to BE YOURSELF and not compare her to YOU is important...but HARD as hell when you allready feel like a FOOL
for not "seeing it coming" at BD.
Synicca, I hear you on this one. You are soooo right. We need to be true to ourselves...Find out who WE are. It is difficult...but it is something we MUST do.
And, don't feel like a fool for not "seeing it coming" - that is why they call it "Bomb Drop". We are clueless at the time....maybe because we are in denial....many times because the MLCer has been so secretive and has lied so well - we do not see this coming. We could not have kept it from coming. Once, in the tunnel, it is inevitable. Not our fault. Not our doing. So, you reallly need to work on letting that go. Don't feel like a fool. You are not a fool.
It takes time....but we all need to get to a point where "we just know" that the R is DOOMED to start...It is doomed because you CANNOT start ANY R ( normally) based on lies...The VERY foundation is weak.
That is correct. The foundation is very weak. So....as RCR states - the Titanic didn't need any help in going down. Leave the "relationship" to self - destruct on its own. Stay far clear - in the life boat. And, don't watch. It may take a while to sink...and it may bounce up more than a few times before the inevitable end.
By sitting and watching.....you are giving up YOUR time to work on yourself. Fix those self esteem issues. Become the person that you want to be...for yourself.
Limitless
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Limitless and Synicca,
Wish i was as good with words as you both.
The thing that makes me feel so much better is knowing that I am going through the same emotions as most of you.
With the OW I wish I knew what was going on inside their house...conversations they have had, and it's not to be obsessive or jealous- it is so that I can put that R in the back of my mind knowing 100% for sure it is BAD. In my mind I have no real evidence... but the knowledge to me IS POWER so it does help a tremendous deal.
But if I did know someone who went through MLC you bet your bottom dollar that I would be finding out everything I could about the R and OW just like LG said...it gives me peace and helps me focus more on myself and not them.
WOW it really does give us power!!!
knowledge=power...lets never forget that!
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Limitless and Synicca,
Wish i was as good with words as you both.
The thing that makes me feel so much better is knowing that I am going through the same emotions as most of you.
With the OW I wish I knew what was going on inside their house...conversations they have had, and it's not to be obsessive or jealous- it is so that I can put that R in the back of my mind knowing 100% for sure it is BAD. In my mind I have no real evidence... but the knowledge to me IS POWER so it does help a tremendous deal.
Crazyforhim,
Thanks for the kind words.
Regarding your "wish" to know what is going on inside their house - be very careful what you wish for.
I'm going to make a guess and say that, as all MLCers cycle - what is going on (or not going on) in that house is cycling, too.
Do you really want to ride that rollercoaster? I really don't think that you do.
The MLCer will attempt many avenues to run and avoid. During replay - they just aren't ready to face themselves. There is much indecision (at first), then maybe they are completely sure that what they are doing is RIGHT, then they don't understand why they still aren't "happy". It would truly drive one batty to watch! I truly believe this.
Some of the LBS here who have lots of interaction with their MLCers are seeing this right now. It takes a very strong, confident LBS to deal with this. I do not put myself into that category. While I wonder what is going on in my H's mind right now.....it is most likely better than I am not privvy to it.
Real evidence really wouldn't help - as the MLCers change their minds so much - it really doesn't matter.
Re-read the articles on Infidelity. Re-read the articles on MLC takes Time. Re-read the stages.
Trust the process. That is all we can do.
The rest is out of our hands and control.
You will be okay. These things take lots of time. I'm not there, yet....but I am determined to get there.
Hugs,
Limitless
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Sorry for the hijack but I just spoke to my H for the first time in over a month about our son and OW and court. As usual he started the blame game. As you all know, it was brought up in court about his OW, that she lost custody of her son when he was young. She also spent a day in jail for writing bad checks. Well the court papers came last week and they state no third party will be allowed at my H's house when our S is there with him. Well my H is furious. He said that my Atty, the courts and myself are questioning his integrity by doing this and he will not put up with it. He said no one is going to tell him what to do. He said I would never put my S in danger. I am a good father. I told him if OW didn't have all these issues there wouldn't be a problem. He then said something shocking to me, he said to me, if you(me) were with a guy that was in jail or even if he did drugs, I would allow our S to be around him because I know you are a great mother and if you liked this guy, then I would be fine with it! :o :o
WTF????? That statement doesn't even sound normal to me. He then told me he wants me to be happy and wishes I would find someone else. :'( He said OW is a good person, a great mother. He has nothing but good things to say about her. I keep reading these relationships are bad too but in talking to my H, he's as happy as can be with her. Does nothing but brag about her even with all the known bad things about her. He was literally screaming at me and I was setting him straight on some things he was saying. He then said, this is why we will never be together again because we don't agree on things. What couple does agree on everything? He is a conflict avoider and doesn't like any argueing what so ever. :'( :'( So I have to think that not all these relationships are bad. They have been together for just over a year and living together since March 1st of this year, plus she was staying at our apt. with him since Dec.. I don't know, I am just so confused. I try not to think about them like we are supposed to, I try and believe what I read on here about these relationships, but I just don't see their relationship as being bad. I think they are happy.
NB
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Oh NB- I am so there with you on that one...but the one thing that can reassure me is that our H's aren't themselves right now and really do I want to be with "this person" well the answer is "NO" I want to be with my H.
Really let OW have him in this state of mind- cause when I think about it I don't want him like this.
Limitless- no I really don't want to know what is going on every minute, but a hint of how bad it is would be great in my mind...LOL! It just gives me a sense of "phew" it really isn't as good as I think. Then I would feel more relaxed and less stressed and more empowered.
Thanks so much for the advice
I guess another thing that bothers me is the R she is creating with my kids- that's something else that I can't get my head around. If that R is so bad then why on earth would you want your kids to be a part of that.
Those are my worries and those are also my hurdles which I will get over and be better bc of all this.
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NB,
It is a FANTASY!
After all that appears to be true about this OW - your H tells you that she is okay and he loves her?
You are listening to the words of a crazy person.
It would be okay for you to have a drug addict and felon in the same house as you and your Son - because he knows you to be a good mother and trusts you??? That is crazy stuff!
He's in Replay. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain. He is of no importance. He is delusional. And, he is trying too hard to convince you (and himself) that this relationship his is in is a GOOD one.
Stop talking to him about it (i understand that the court decision just was given and this is why you were discussing it). He will continue to defend her to you. That doesn't mean they are happy or that the relationship will last.
It is a relationship built on fantasy.......
Leave him to his fantasy.
Focus on protecting your Son.
Don't believe what your MLCer is telling you.
Drug addicts will also tell you about how great that cocaine makes them feel. Doesn't mean that it is healthy...doesn't mean that it is good for them...it just means that they are addicted. The crash is coming.
Hugs,
L
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New Beginnings,
My h. lives with OW & her 2 children and has done now for a year. I am not sure how long the affair was going on before BD - not long I believe. Anyway, it is really only at BD that an affair relationship becomes 'real' (or the running away, hiding or whatever else a MLCer does in an attempt to get away from their problems & feelings). Since BD for you was 'only' February this year your husband is likely still in the thralls of infatuation or infatuation has subsided and he is desperately trying to convince himself and everyone else that he has done the right thing.
I know my h. is not happy in the true sense of the word. It is written all over his face and in the isolated life he lives now.
But it is still too early in his crisis for him to do anything about it. So I leave him to it and get on with my own life.
Your husband is not happy and it is much too early for him to do anything about it.
Please read the articles and the blogs as you need to accept that this will take time, a lot of time, and then some more.
And your husband is definitely not in love nor happy - trust me on this.
The Self Focus articles will help you look after the most important person now, which is YOU, so please read them over & over again.
CrazyStuff
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Crazystuff ~ I think you are right when you say he is trying to convince himself and everyone he made the right decision.
So now I wonder, if he is out to prove that, will he ever leave her?
Limitless ~ Thank you for setting me straight. He was crazy on the phone, screaming at me. What is setting him off is
the fact the courts and me are telling him who he can and cannot have at his house when our S is there. He is furious.
I do have to say that I found his comment really funny and off the wall, that if I had a boyfriend and he was a drug addict and had been in jail, that he would be ok with that because I liked the guy. :o :o That right there told me he is not in his right mind. He also called me a b*tch and said everyone said so. I said, really, like who, your mother. He has no one else to talk to about any of this except OW and his mother. Now I am thinking that he and OW had a huge fight last night because my H had to tell her to leave this weekend and every other weekend so our S could go there. I think she told him no way because during our conversation he said he would take our S to Disney and Universal and not to his house, ever.
:o :o :o Now that I think about it, I think she is putting pressure on him and she is the one calling me a B*tch. I said to H, I am not a b*tch. I am a very kind and giving person and your mother and sister and her family know that. I was his sisters kids favorite Aunt. I think he is running scared right now. I am just going to let him be. I just wish he wouldn't say
such mean and hurtful things to me.
crazyforhim ~ I agree, I would just like a little hint of truth as to what their relationship really is. Sorry, I know I shouldn't
care but I do and I wouldn't think it would be normal not to wonder. After all, they are our H's and we were with them
for many years and we love them. We never saw this coming. We can't shut our love off like a light switch.
Hugs to All
NB
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These OW's- boy do they ever know how to swoop in and ruin lives. I know our H's aren't any better but
really I can't say enough about everyone on here who lends an ear and cares so much...I absolutely don't know what I would have done to keep my sanity otherwise... :) :)
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Crazyfm,
I have just thought of something that I know has made a difference in my case . The courts were not involved so I resorted to using information from a counsellor to stop h. pushing for S15 to spend time at his house along with OW & her 2 children. The key is to make it impersonal and not about you.
If you get a chance, you need to find a way of letting your husband know that the decision to protect your son was one taken by the courts after consideration of the facts and that although you believe it is the right decision you do not believe it is personal, i.e., it is not about you, nor your husband. It is only about the welfare of your son. Tell your h. that you know that he is a good dad and that you trust him to do the right thing for your son, which for now includes abiding by this court order.
Do not argue with him about it nor get emotional. Simply make it a factual statement the next time he brings it up and then leave it.
He will be blaming you and protecting OW, yet sometimes such truth darts do find their way through the fog.
I wish there was a law to prevent children being introduced to affair partners everywhere.
CrazyStuff
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NW, It is a fantasy. Agree with Crazy, you need to let your husband know it was a court decision based on facts, nothing to do with him or you, even if you agree with the court decision.
Don't worry with him blamming you. They do that all the time. We get the blame for their poor choices. See, we were not good enough, rich enough, did not work or looked after them enough, they were never happy with us, so, they choose a fantastic person. ::) It is there problem if the fantastic person brings them troubles. Let them have it. ;D
All this stories make me think, some OW/OM had troubles in theirs past, including with court, jail, police but by the end of the crises so will have some of our spouses. Not a very nice thought...
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The affair is the hardest part of this whole situation for me to cope with. i do not spend Toooo much time dwelling on it, but it is great to have a thread to vent my fears. I "know" it is a distraction from H's real issues, a reflection/projection of his shadow, however it is the most difficult part of the process to accept. I can read tons of situations, loads of research, and I can know enough to write a dissertation on BPD/NPD/sociopaths/addictive R's, but STILL do not SEE it in my own situation.
My concerns hit every now and then (cycling) in the form of:
What if he has never loved ME and now has found who he truly loves? He believes this is true. This is the reality I live with. In many ways, hobag doesn't "fit". Every issue that comes up for me is researched and I am ALWAYS led back to "typical affair down". Everyone's posts on the subject helps me immensely. I can then get through another 24 hours without thinking about it...until the next trigger. The more I learn, the more powerful I feel. I also use what i learn for self-reflection...was i ever THAT way? Are others in my life That way? What changes can I make?
HOWEVER! I also know he is being manipulated by a master sociopath. (BPD's didn't quite fit her which left me confused for a long time)
Paraphrased from Margaret Singer on Influence:
We often want to influence others for a variety of reasons. A good choice-respecting educative/therapeutic way involves questioning for reflection or clarification or discussion, Is information giving, offers ideas and solutions, and may involve a rational message argument. We see this every day here on the forum.
A compliance-gaining, manipulative method is more insidious. The manipulation may be a conscious plan for a power/control grab, or the person may not even be aware they are manipulating for power/control having equated power and control with "love". Tactics used run along a spectrum of obvious to extremely slow and subtle and will seem incredibly insidious to those watching it unfold but the victim will be oblivious and defend the manipulator at all costs.
A main goal is to isolate from normal social support and from reality testing.
Tactics:
#1 increase the victims' suggestibility and soften them up through alcohol, drugs, tales of woe, etc.
#2 establish control over social environment, times, and sources social support. This includes defaming 'friends' and others that do not support the manipulator. The control promotes social isolation and creates dependence.
#3 establish rules about who,what , where, when on communications with others as well as permissible topics.
#4 make victim re-evaluate self and see their "old" self in a negative manner to destabilize emotional control, defense mechanisms, and reality awareness.
#5 create powerlessness by undermining confidence in self.
#6 create drama (punishments), social isolation, intense guilt, anxiety, and fear. This can be outright demands or more subtle "it makes me feel bad when you visit your kids without me. sniff, pout"...translate..maybe I won't be here when you get back.
So, even if there is not any obvious drama in the affair, you can see your spouse's responses to the tactics.
While I hesitate to diagnose my H or the hobag with a disorder, disordered behavior runs rampant.
Lovefraud.com has tons of articles which describe my H's affair. Is he a sociopath? Yes...at the moment he acts like one, and there are a few good articles on how sociopaths target "good, honorable people" just to see if they can bring them down, and on how the target can become like the sociopath. I recommend reading some of the hundreds of articles for insight into what your spouse may be dealing with, why they can't break away, why they seem happy (they are told they are!), why this "love" is so different (b/c love is a cycle of fear, anxiety, bonding and relief. NOT! but the brain chemicals feel similar).
H and hobag are not sociopaths They are probably not sociopaths in the criminal aspect as a cash con or a bunny boiler. Their need for power and control seems to be limited to"love" and a bonus of prestige or money gifts. H wasn't before, and from what I know about her, she is. A main piece of evidence is that all of her relationships overlap. She was involved with someone when she pursued her H...gave him the same "he is evil" tale of woe, and so on. Then, with in a year of marrying him, was onto pursuing my h in a classic, textbook fashion. H excuses all of her behavior as coincidental or done for love. (BARF) I have no idea how far H will allow himself to be pushed. I do know she won't give up until he marries her. Once she has "won", she will move on.
No, I don't think I am wasting my time thinking about the A. The information I get gives me insight into not only their A , but in other relationships in my life as well.
And everything boils down to: Live my life, Focus on my personal growth and well-being of my family. You can't save someone from themselves.
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What if he has never loved ME and now has found who he truly loves? He believes this is true.
Of course he have loved you. Yes, he believes he had found the one he truly loves. For the time being. And, in the worst case scenario that he really did found the one he truly loves, well, LGO, so do have you: yourself! With or without husband you have to always love yourself.
They are probably not sociopaths in the criminal aspect as a cash con or a bunny boiler. Their need for power and control seems to be limited to"love" and a bonus of prestige or money gifts.
Seema to be a common thing, spouse and other person power and control is limited to "love", prestige and money gifst/benefits. Poor the. Always so shallow.
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No, I don't think I am wasting my time thinking about the A. The information I get gives me insight into not only their A , but in other relationships in my life as well.
LGO....I feel the same way....for myself, it gave me info on whether or not I would allow my D to be around the OW...I am glad that I found out so much quite early on, otherwise my D would have been horribly subjected to alot of their fighting....so without this type of info how would we know it is safe for them?? I surly do NOT give OW all my head space, but I'll be damned if I stay oblivious to how toxic it is, just so I dont "look" like I give her power....Power has nothing to do with it, when kids are involved. IMHO
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Synicca ~ Exactly!!!! When kids are involved we have to know about these OW. We are only protecting our kids. ;D
NB
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Hi for those that think about o/w i truly think its normal.yes in the beginning we do this because of shock and low self esteem........we tend to compare who wouldn’t.........but later on especially for those with CB i think its vital that we pass on info about the mlc and o/w or how do we help those who are behind us or those who have vanishes who probably sit there and think that their spouse and ow/om are happy.....how do we get articles that state that these ow/om are affair downs etc if we do not tell our stories.........whilst i don’t let o/w take over my life i do know i need to be aware of what’s going on in her R with my h.......we need to see how fecked up it is.......and just how far these o/w will go in order to warn others what to expect in the worse case scenario......... i love to read about o/w and just how low they become because this confirms to me that the R is not healthy.........can you imagine if we all wrote nothing about ow/om many people would crack up or go insane believing that o/w and our spouses were truly happy....what hope would that give.......i do think when we write things about ow/om and people comment like this :o :o :o :o :o it helps us to become better spouses because we begin to do the opposite of these ow/om by that i mean become less demanding, needy, desperate, nagging we be come the opposite to these ow/om........ as for not all o/w being affair downs mine defo was/is she knew me and h were married and even if she didn’t the minute she knew she should have walked away.........xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
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I am so happy that my H never asks to bring the Ds around OW Bowser. In the beginning he'd give it a shot. After enough NO WAYs he gave up ??? That's gotta be good news somehow. :)
Bowser must complain 'where are the kids?' OW withdrawal I dunno maybe someday that'd be nice. He can't have an R with anyone that is for sure. So withdrawal for a nobody...4 weeks sounds right. :o :o :o
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Mamma - my kids have also been really firm and clear about NO WAY they will meet OW.
I too feel very lucky about the solidarity. They feel as betrayed and abandoned as I do :o
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What I wonder about OM is... contrast her statements like "i'm not good enough for you" etc... add that... to he kinda reminds me of learch (sp?). He is not much of a thinker.. does not stand up or even stand for much. So does that mean... because she is not good enough for me she is good enough for a shallow dork? He waffles when when ever her could actually make a statement that makes a difference. I am not saying I am any kind of great catch or anything... but I work hard... I care about the people I love... I am dedicated... I can be amusing... compared to... I can tell jokes that most of us got over in grade 7. Lets all tell pee pee jokes..
Bleah...
Me.
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KiKi, I know , me and the Ds are a package deal!!!! OK? That works. :)
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Mamma - package deals are perfect :)
Ziggee - what your W is saying is true. She knows you are better than this outrageous MLC behaviour and yes, she is with someone who can make her feel TRULY SPECTACULAR right now. (when your self esteem is a low as a MLCer - we all know what that means the OW/OM must be like).
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What I wonder about OM is... contrast her statements like "i'm not good enough for you" etc... add that... to he kinda reminds me of learch (sp?). He is not much of a thinker.. does not stand up or even stand for much. So does that mean... because she is not good enough for me she is good enough for a shallow dork? He waffles when when ever her could actually make a statement that makes a difference. I am not saying I am any kind of great catch or anything... but I work hard... I care about the people I love... I am dedicated... I can be amusing... compared to... I can tell jokes that most of us got over in grade 7. Lets all tell pee pee jokes..
Bleah...
They don't want a thinker, nor someone that truly cares for their loved ones. Yep, they are good enough for shallow, futile, silly, low standards people. So, they are right, they are not good enough for us. Not during the MLC.
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My kids have nothing to do with o/w...and never will.........my h's family and friends have nothing to do with her.........once my BIL asked when they were goner meet her, he said this out of curiosity because h never took her anywhere near them and still doesn’t ................my h said never he wouldn’t do that as it wasn’t fair to me who was still very much part of family :o :o :o :o :o what o/w accepts this only a desperate one......they must be delude themselves and what on earth does o/w's family think when my h gets no family visiting him at o/w's house,,,,,,o/w family don’t know my h was/is having affair........wonder what he tells them when they ask about his FOO .............its mind boggling.......lol xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
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I agree WGH - what sort of a crazy person would think this was normal?
What sort of a person hasn't had any interaction with their 'boyfriends' kids after a year and a half of living with them?
What does the OW's family make of it? Are they as crazy as she is ? Probably.....
I heard through the grapevine that OW's sister said the it's so hard for OW and my H, as I just can't 'let go'.
Poor things! My heart goes out to her ........ I just didn't hand 24 years, a business, property and my kids and H all over to her on a plate?
And what's more - if a man doesn't want to be financially tied to his wife - he can choose not to be himself. I can't control that. She is nuts!
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Speaking of kids, my two boys are with me this weekend and they are small, only 8 and 5. S8 tells me they get scared at night sometimes and crawl in bed with "mom". Of course OM is there to.
My freak'n ex is so retarded and has only known OM for less than 3 months and is comfortable with this.
Yeah, You can imagine what I want to do to the both of them. SELFISH and only think about themselves. Probably a little damage going on there to the little ones!
Protect your little ones the best you can. I was only able to get physical custody of D19 and S16 meaning they live here. AHHHH the shame!
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Speaking of kids, my two boys are with me this weekend and they are small, only 8 and 5. S8 tells me they get scared at night sometimes and crawl in bed with "mom". Of course OM is there to.
My freak'n ex is so retarded and has only known OM for less than 3 months and is comfortable with this.
Everytime I read what some of you, with children, mention the crazy things your spouses do to the kids, or tht affect the kids, I think "Anne, he had done really bad things, but he does not put your kids into stupid situations". Also, I always remind myself that women who are mothers do have MLC and go nuts!
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Rookie - that is so sad. I am kind of grateful my kids are all teenagers - my H hasn't ever pushed anything legally with the younger two thank goodness.
I've often thought this would be an even worse scenario if the boys were still young.
My heart goes out to you all.
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From New Beginnings
"So I have to think that not all these relationships are bad. They have been together for just over a year and living together since March 1st of this year, plus she was staying at our apt. with him since Dec.. I don't know, I am just so confused. I try not to think about them like we are supposed to, I try and believe what I read on here about these relationships, but I just don't see their relationship as being bad. I think they are happy."
From RCR's article Woman Scorned Part II
The relationship needs to come to a place where from a distance it may seem secure and where the alienator herself feels she is winning and can thus let down her guard. If you trust the process of MLC and that infidelity does not yield secure relationships, you will not be fooled, but many are easily fooled. Have faith in the process.
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NB, I second what DGU put here from RCR articles. My husband spend around 1.5 year on the open with OW1 and everyone around them would say "it is a match made in heaven".
He is been with OW2 for over 3 years, living together for at least 2. From the outside, just like with OW1, it looks solid as a rock. But...It is not. OW1 was very jealous and husband was always going for coffee and talking with other women, OW2 is very controling.
It may take him to be divorced but OW2 will end up showing her true colours. She already have, he just did not notice, so wrap up in his ego he his.
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Thanks DGU, My mind says she's an idiot. But after this long I know my job with the little ones and that is to reassure them and praise them for just being good boys. I give them ( I hope) enough normalcy to see them through this.
Having the teenagers is much easier as they understand their mother is not right and will not visit her "shack". My ex recently had tried to push S16 to "hang out with them and he said "NO Thanks" D19 loves her "old Mom but is disgusted by this one.
D19 bday was the 17th and is at school in GA and still has not received a card, gift anything from "mom" yet. Just a Happy bday on FB!
I just cannot sometimes still believe even after over 3 years that the ex still behaves with no conscience. no shame. no feelings. mind boggling although I know she is deeply "gone". I do remind her of her behaviors at times, deaf ears though!
I truly think this is one girl who would be better off NOT waking up from this crisis.
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My D decided after the second and LAST visit she had with her dad....that she was not going to be anywhere near OW again, and she said that if he had brought her back to Cali, he would lose her forever....she would never come to visit him again.
I told him this right after he went to NY...and he was crushed. Oh well, should have thought about that sooner...:) I am glad that OW and her S wont be coming here now...;) Miracles DO happen...
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Rookie
"I just cannot sometimes still believe even after over 3 years that the ex still behaves with no conscience. no shame. no feelings. mind boggling although I know she is deeply "gone"."
I understand your frustration being at 3+ years. I'm only at 2, but my good friend is at 3.5 years with his ex-wife's MLC. Truth is, 3 years is the short side of the time process for making it through MLC.
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Truth is, 3 years is the short side of the time process for making it through MLC.
OK, and what is the long time to make it through MLC? 10 years? Forever?...I'm on year 6 of this thing and see no sigh of the end of replay, let alone MLC... ::)
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I agree 3 years is the short side and like AnneJ, I see no signs of her coming out of it. I have moved on with my feelings for her, pain is gone, kids are forever though spouse's are not.
I've been battling things at S5 school for well over a year now that she just keeps telling them the "rose colored glasses" side ( he's autistic). This stuff is forever. These are the things that are unnecessary. His behavior has gone 180 at school since OM has been around and she blames it on a new teacher this year. Tells the school he is fine at home ( which I know is not true by S8).
I am done battling her MLC and have been for quite sometime, I am just trying to keep the kiddo's head straight. I finally told S5 TEAM at school today ( another meeting because of the ex screwing up his IEP) that some of his misbehaving could be attributed to his home life. Nobody could understand why S5 had such a turn around and these people are professionals. You do the math. He's here tonight and is loving and comfortable, S8 tells me he gives her a hard time almost every night and she has been given him melatonin to put him to bed now for 2years straight!.Which I called her on today and she says she doesn't do it every night yet there it was packed in his over night bag for me! Problem with MLC I cannot approach her about any parenting skills as her defense's and denial kick right in. He had his physical and she talked to the Dr about him having ADHD! enough said. Thanks for letting me vent out the kiddo's!
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AnneJ
"OK, and what is the long time to make it through MLC? 10 years? Forever?..."
Depends on where you look. Below is information about MLC from Wiki.
"Midlife crises last about 3–10 years in men and 2–5 years in women."
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Rookie, I'm so sorry to hear your S5 is having problems at school because of your wife OM and the overall situation.
You only have one advantage from be, you're divorced, legal stuff is already sorted out.
What do you mean by moved on with your feelings for her? The gone pain I get. You no longer love her? Don't want her back? Just asking because I know the more time into this, the more our feelings change.
Right now I'm in the "please court, just put a legal end to this marriage and make it quick". No anger towrds husband, no pain, just, ok, enough of this insane mess. There will be plenty of time to sort out what needs sorting out but I can do that divorced. Think now I'm then one who wants the clean break...
DGU, thanks. Just what I tought, up to 10 years. We have entered year 6, so, case it goes till the limit, this is year 6 and 4 more to 10... Way too much time... Even one more year married and the same situation seems to me way too much time...
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Anne, Yes time, I find it impossible to love this person anymore. I can forgive her someday and have for a lot of the damage that I personally have overcome both emotionally and financially. The kids thing is what I struggle with. I have held back a lot of my personal life to show the kids what a good role model does. D19 and S16 have given me their praise and the "green light" to date etc. I have proven to my children that I will not only not abandoned them but be there for them in all life's happenings.
Getting D19 into school was no easy task, she has flourished with my support and has a job and shares an apartment with friends now. Doing alot on her own yet we discuss a lot of her decisions and SHE calls me for advice.
S16 just got his license yesterday, is looking at schools ( he's a junior) and just got his first job and plays sports. I have been there the whole way with him.
S8 and S5 I do as much as possible and give them as much love as I can and still set controls on them when they are here.
Ex wife does nothing for the teenagers but FB them. She takes S16 out once a month for dinner or the mall.
Yes, I have fallen out of love with her and actually "have crushes on a few people I know. In other words, it would excite me to date these people. Much, much more stable. For now we will see.
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Time does strange things. It s a gift but it does not always brings what we expect. I have not fallen out of love with much husband, if anything I love him more. But it is a gentle love for an old friend that has fallen in disgrace. Not the love of a wife for a husband.
I've forgived him long ago.it was such a relief when I did that.
If I count well you have 5 children, right? Your oldest ones did well giving you their "green light" to date. You're a great stable dad, and we all need companionship.
I've dated a few men. Mainly in the years post-BD. So, nothing serious. Now I've past the crushes and I'm into something serious and stable. OK, I know, I had a stable marriage...But time to bring someone new for the future into my life.
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Lol, stable is a funny word around here! I could go to Harlem and find someone more stable than my ex! Lol
4 kids actually. 19,16,8,5. She should have listened to me when I said ONLY 2! JK, wouldn't trade them for the world!
I actually think the Love that you speak of for your H is what our MLCer felt when the said the old ILYBNILWY!
I can't even find that anymore! We were at S5 horse riding lesson today and I swear I felt nothing for her, just wanted to hang with the kids. It did seem though that she wanted to talk and would stand a little close to me and that actually made me uncomfortable. I look at her and cannot see the person I used to know, it faded away. AND I tried to see it today, not there.
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Yes, stable is a funny word around here. ;D Would be easy to find a more stable person in a psychiatrich hospital than our spouses.
Ah! 4 kids. :) 4 is nice. :)
Don't know, Rookie, my husband did the opposite of ILYBNILWY, it was I'm in love with you but I don't love you anymore. Maybe what I feel for my husband is what RCR has in her articles, Agape. Nothing wrong with it. It is love, real one. Just the romantic and physical sides are not there. Not for now, anyway. They may return or they may not. One never knows...
Don't see my husband in the person he is now. Don't know who that man is. Would not want to go out with him. But, one day, years from now, I may be up to a talk with an old friend, former husband. A talk that can only happen if/when he is out of the crisis and years have passed after its end.
That is pretty much how I see husband and I in a few years, old friends that have a nice, civil talk. Great for friendship, not so great for marriage.
You're 3 years on this, I'm on year 6. It is natural that you don't even feel that kind of love for your wife right now. In my experience it is something that comes latter, around year 4, 4.5.
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6 years, God bless you! I may have kid number 5 by then! LOL!
Yeah, I could see her as a friend someday, I mean we do have 4 kids together. It's just the eyes are open again and that will probably get me in trouble but hey! after this crap what do i have to lose! Lol
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not 6 years, 5 years, year 6 started two weeks ago. I mean, year 6 since husband left. In reality I think it all begin in early 2006 but for a few months nothing looked much different.
Yep, by year 6 you may be having kid nº 5! ;D
Of course one day you will see your wife as a friend. Like you've said, she is the mother of your children. And she may come out of the crisis much sooner than my husband.
Yes, after all this what is there to loose? ;D
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Anne, do we all think it's strange that the MLCer can go years with out divorcing us? My ex waited over 2 years herself and carried on with "dude" #1. Divorced me 11/10 and was done with dude #1 2 months later??? Your H is on his 6th year and 2nd OW but does not divorce you??? What the hell is OW thinking??
Think we need a DGU article about this!
I won't get into your personal life of having no children, and I'm sure the "pain" was there no matter but to me that is a cleaner break than having kids.
I also think if we meet different people and say "fall in love" again. I'm pretty sure we are not gonna be in much contact with our MLCer as we will not care at all anymore. My little ones will eventually be big and other than weddings and funerals. I see very little if any contact. We are not in MLC or clingers. Are new relationship will be real and thats a big difference. I think it would be a riot if my ex snapped out of it after I already "fell in love" and she was pining for me! That would be justice! LOL
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ok, Heres another one...
c'mon everyone, it is one thing to have questions and concerns...but this is out of control!
How about we head back to the basics that are posted ALL over the board and take our attention AWAY from the alienator, and put it back onto ourselves and our children?
2x4 me if you want, but maybe I am the first of many that is speaking up...
hugs,
L
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L, Not sure what you mean? There are legitimate questions here that go through our thought process that we must deal with everyday. Just as much damage from all angles.
The alienator is 50% of the problem and 75% of the hurt?
What do you suggest? We are here to get it ALL out of our system and to try and make sense of all that is happening.
If people feel this thread is worth responding then so it be. There are hundreds of threads that fits everybody's mood at different times.
You want to control this one because it doesn't fit your mood? Hmmmm
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Rookie,
I do not want to control anything. I know there are some valid points and concerns, however many seem to be allowing themselves to be consumed by them...
I am, and will continue to suggest that everyone start at the beginning...READ all of the info, let it sink in, and merely try to accept the process...
I say this because I was where alot of you are, had these same things not been repeated and repeated again to me, I would probably still be there. The sooner the attention is taken away from the alienator/affair, the easier it is to care for yourself and your children.
The affair is going to take place and there is nothing that can be done to stop it...there can be things done to prolong it, and obsessing and trying to "figure it all out" will do just that...Think how all of the MLCers would just love being observed so closely...leave them alone, let the process take its course...
put the energy and effort into better places...we will NEVER be able to make sense of it all...
hugs,
L
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LBOHG...totally understand where you are coming from.
I think we all KNOW what we have to do...actually getting there is the hard part.
So I get the part where we come on here and go over the same things over and over again...but in my sitch I can read EVERYTHING (once, twice and three times) process it but there is something about hearing it from people that makes it more real for me. And the more you come on here and hear it and then hear it again is more about processing than reading articles..
So your advice is soooo true but I'm just putting in my two cents...sorry!
I could hear things 100 times cause it makes me feel better!!! I know that sounds obsessive but if it makes us feel better
than easier to move on.
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Crazy,
I am a bit confused by your post.
Does it make your feel better to learn and read about the alienator? I guess I just don't get that.
When I came to this site.....I believed that there was no alienator. That my H just got tired of being with ME and left. He hid it so very well. It took months to find out that there had been one (even if it had only been in HIS mind). It appears that didn't work out. So, he just searched for another one. Another crash and burn...so I think he is on number 3 right now.
What does that tell you? It isn't about the alienator....it never was. He thought he was so in love back in March of 2010 that he set up a plan to leave his family. Here were are at the end of 2011, that alienator is apparently out of the picture - and he just finds new ones. It's about Replay - running - avoiding. That is why the alienator is of no importance. He/she could be gambling, working, drinking, drugs - etc., etc., etc. It is merely a method to avoid looking within....because he/she isn't ready to face the true issue(s), yet. It is only through running and avoiding and learning that these tactics do not work....that the MLCer can hit rock bottom and come to face his/her true issues.
Yes. The Infidelity is one of the most painful part of MLC for the LBS. There is no denying that.
I just do not see how reading about and commenting on the alienator would make us feel any better. We can all fantasize about how terrible she is......what a terrible mother.....that she has no moral values....that she is needy....pushy.......etc. RCR describes all of this in the Learning about Infidelity article.....and how the alienator is an "affair down."
This is part of the process. It hurts me to think of my H with another person. It really does. Deep down inside I worry that she is "better" than me to him in some way and he will never return.
But, if I truly trust and believe the process that is MLC - I know that my H has deep issues that he must deal with. He is truly incapable of having a true and honest relationship with ANYONE at this point - even ME. So, I have to let that go and work on living my life.
I hope that all of us have gotten this "alienator" stuff out of our systems with this and the previous thread. I think it is time to put the focus back where it belongs....on US and our families.
I agree with Love being on higher grounds on this one. I've been a slum lord and allowed the Other women in my H's life to spend way too much time in my head. I need to let that one go, now.
Trust the process......these "relationships" seldom, if ever, last.
Hugs,
Limitless
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Love being and Limitless, Hey when you're right you're right. Stop making sense. Stop being the voice of reason. LOL!
I think, for me anyway, about 5 months ago when I was only 3 mos post BD I read where an LBS was reading her Hs cellpone texts between ow and H. She was really shedding light for me on WTF??? She went on to say how teenagery the texts were. ie : "Miss You My Love....When you're not here I am lonely...Without you I am nothing...Later we'll meet for dinner...LOL LOL" ::) She went on to describe even more teenagery texts really sounding like little brains talking to each other.
Since I saw my H every day for 16 years before his rapid departure I know what he looks like and acts like everday. Before BD. Since BD I am clueless except at pickups and drop offs of Ds.
When I read back then what this LBS wrote about the texts I was relieved. It helped me wrap my brain around how my sad puppy dog H suddenly snapped at, growled at, bit at and ran from ME. :'( On the worstest of days (and we've all been there) the one thing I can't grasp is H sitting on a couch with another female human and doing ANYTHING, never mind the nasty!! LOL...Reading those texts so many mos ago gave me a certain level of comfort. A snapshot into the mind of a desperate MLCer. (redundant)
These ones on here not so much. I was getting confused. Yeah, if we can be real strong musclemen and women we'd put OW in a box and sell her at a yard sale. ???
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See your point, L and others. Anne and I were basically talking about the children. And moving on. And Time helping us as we have been at this for quite sometime.
Sorry, I do have a problem with the way my ex is raising the kids. I don't have a problem with her choice of OM as I know my ex is not well.
I DO think it is ok to truth dart the ex when her misbehaviors involve the children. I'm not the sitting back type and just accept the damage she is causing them. Any advice from any of you on what to say or do as S8 says she allows OM (who she has known for less than 3 months) to sleep in the same bed with them when they wake up scared at night and go to her for comfort?
This is not about other man as he is a puppet, this is about the kids and their well being in the mind and her allowing this kind of behavior. All comments welcome.
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Good One Rookie, I like it. OW/OM are puppets. We don't want to be lumped in that category. No puppet Lighthouses allowed. 8)
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The alienator is not the problem.
The marriage is not the problem.
Here is a piece from RCR's article Midlife Crisis Takes Time
"For many experiencing this crisis in their marriage, there was no bad marriage. Though nothing is perfect, many problems were not significant enough to warrant danger. The problem is the Midlife Crisis."
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But don't tell them :) they need to figure it out for themselves not from our co-dependent mind frames ;D
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Thanks DGU and Mamma, it is the crisis and that I am sure off. My ex even went as far to say that I am just mad that her BF likes her kids AND her. I did not react to that one iota. laughed it off actually with a family member.
I know her BF will "take" what he wants from her and ditch her. Not many people are willing to raise someone elses little ones.
There is a history though where her mother found exactly that. Divorced her dad for her dads best friend who was a drug attic/alcoholic and drug dealer! Poor girl at 9 saw all walks of life coming in and out of her home!
Looks like she is mirroring her mom.
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Healing on our journey is like the layers of an onion, sometimes we come around and heal another layer - deeper and deeper each time. For many of us, information is vital to help us understand, make sense of and then move forwards - enabling us to detach again. We all cycle too.
I completely agree that the focus should not be on the OW/OM, but I think some of the people who seem to be struggling the most with this at the moment have these people thrown in their faces, or there is cause for alarm regarding their potential interaction with their young children. It is easy for those of us that don't have this concern to dismiss this genuine problem - it is part of our journey to ensure that our children are safe while their other parent is filling their own selfish needs.
I feel extremely fortunate that I'm not in this position. Our three kids are older, and have made it very clear that they have no interest in meeting the OW or having anything to do with her.
We all know not to mention the OW, engage in any dramas, or give them any energy at all. I guess from a Quantum Physics perspective, thinking about it and understanding it all is giving it energy, but most of us seem to be able to detach more when we reach a level of understanding, and are then able to focus on us and our kids again.
We all know that the OW/OM is not important - they're merely a symptom of the crisis - but don't we wish that lemonade ice-blocks were the most public and hurtful symptom of the crisis instead? - then I think we'd all have a much easier time dealing with it ...... the fallout and impact on our kids would be enormously reduced.
Some days it is going to plain hurt - other days - not so much or even not at all. It takes us time too, and we don't all go at the same speed. Maybe we should allow each other the same grace that we do our MLCers
hugs to all
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HI all,
I so get the concern for children that are placed in the middle...I have 2, who when this started( or I should say when H moved out) were only 5 and 8...I know it is very hard, heartbreaking and frustrating!
What I did, and I know it isnt an option for everyone...I kept mine to myself. I did for myself and for them and RARELY got a break. It paid off though because the harder I made it for them to be exposed in ANY way...the more worn out on arguing about it my H became...sooner than later, he gave in, and it was no longer an issue...
What did become an issue in turn then was that OW was extremely jealous of time my h spent with his children...created all sorts of issues between them, but I really didnt give a damn...
Like i said, I know this isnt an option for everyone, but be creative in how you do things, you could tie things up for a while...
hugs,
L
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Hi LoveBOHG
That's fantastic that you managed to do that with your kids being so little - your H can't have dragged you through the courts
Technically, my H probably could have insisted that our younger two see him if he had taken that pathway, but luckily he didn't - despite many threats, and the boys stuck to their guns, and I too insisted that he come here to see them. It's a hard haul isn't it, having the kids 100% of the time, but I am glad that I managed it too.
We too saw the impact of the OW spinning out with my H spending time with his kids away from her - the stress of juggling all of those balls brought on his panic attacks again
hugs
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LBOHG, I hear you. I didnt have the option you did. Imagine if you had those young ones and you were in crisis. My ex has physical custody and is in what I would call a very bad MLC. ( some say their MLCer are milder).
I have asked her for custody but she is in no way ready to give up the "good mom" label.
My two eldest also do not speak of, want to meet him and are very disappointed in their mom. Believe it or not I have let a lot slide with the ex concerning the kids as I can only pick the toughest battles ( Like "do not let other men sleep with my children"!) They took the kids to a circus and a pumpkin fest and I told the ex "great! I am glad they are getting out" and I meant that to her.
I do not think anybody else on this site is having the same problem with children as I am as most of you are woman and have custody of your little ones so although my point is a heart ache it does not "register" with many.
Other than that my ex can have him and he can have her. They outta play fair though, I mean he is not in MLC right???
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Anne, do we all think it's strange that the MLCer can go years with out divorcing us? My ex waited over 2 years herself and carried on with "dude" #1. Divorced me 11/10 and was done with dude #1 2 months later??? Your H is on his 6th year and 2nd OW but does not divorce you??? What the hell is OW thinking??
He tried. With a fault divorce against me. But he could not prove what he said the reason for the end of the marriage was. Of course he did not told the court the truth. My lawyer and I just let him do all the work to prove what he claim. He could not, case closed, he remained married. He is trying, 20 months after the first time, for the second time. Used a hook in the law for this second one, however he also used a false address. He can not prove he lives where he says he does not prove the reason he, again, presents for the end of the marriage. Law around here is a little messy and courts are slow.
I'm enjoying the show.
My guess would be that OW2 is going crazy with all this. Or is very sorry for him. No idea what he told her. If he can lie to the court he can lie to anyone. Maybe she does not want to loose him, maybe he does not want to loose her. Who knows?...Sometimes people believe what they wanna believe.
"We all know not to mention the OW, engage in any dramas, or give them any energy at all. I guess from a Quantum Physics perspective, thinking about it and understanding it all is giving it energy, but most of us seem to be able to detach more when we reach a level of understanding, and are then able to focus on us and our kids again."
Agree with kikki. Engage in the drama is not good. A did it a lot of it durig the first 6 months of OW1 and bit until she was gone. It just wasted my energy. But, weirdly, it did not put husband away. It was when OW2 come along, and a conjugation of his fault divorce filling and my NC, that we stopped talking to each other. Also, weirdly, with OW2 I was never around, never said a word about her, never made husband a question about her, zero, and she is lasting far more that OW1. Looks like when I left him alone and stop naggin/asking he vanished and grab to her like there was no tomorrow.
But, like kikki, I think we need to reach a certain level of understandment. That allow us to bring the focus back to where it belongs, us, and for those who have children, the kids.
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Rookie,
I feel for you, as I cant imagine that battle!
If you seek out Ready to Fix Myself First...he has custody, but he is a wonderful person to speak with, and he is also a man! LOL...
hope you are able to feel a little better being you have found all of us!
Hugs,
L
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Thanks LBOHG, I am just trying to get her to "see" some things that may not be moral or may have some effect on the kids.
Other than that I am doing pretty good. I have followed READY's sitch as well as DGU( no children) Rebell Yell, who has custody, Thundarr who also seems to have custody. Funny thing is on the "other site" I was on first it was mostly men and almost all their MLC woman "abandoned" the kids to the men.
My ex basically for the first year while she still lived here, left the kids with me while she was out on weekends and she didn't lift a finger here. She took the little ones ( although I know she would never admit it, for financial reasons as S5 gets a decent disability check every month). I actually believe to some extent that most woman leave the kids behind as to protect them from seeing their behavior more than abandoning them but the jury is out on that.
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Anne, playing ring around the rosie huh! lol. I tried my best to put off the D but in my state it doesn't take much. I even dodge the sheriff for a few weeks and my company would not allow him on the property! Lol, basically no fault state divorce.
I was just curious as alot of people here are not D and I wonder why the OP doesn't pressure more? Could be that they are just satisfied with the way things are (OP, i mean) or the relationship hasn't hit that status yet. Mine threatened divorce right after BD! lol
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that is great! Im glad you found a few men.
One of my best friends, from the time a was a child, is going through something similar...
His wife seems to have gone off of the deep end...right back into her twenties...
They have 2 children, 4 and 5. At first she made him leave the family home, however after seeking legal counsel, he moved right back, and until it is all legal he will not leave his children. He is going for full custody, and will most likely get it. He went as far as to hire a PI to show exactly what she was doing and to be able to prove it all. It is sad, but I guess it will be for the better.
Keep posting, we will listen and try to help if we can!
hugs,
l
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Rookie, glad you found more men that can help you in this rough period and with the kids.
My country not only has fault divorce but is a southern european country. Now, imagine for how long you can drag things...Thing is, husband really is the one who drags is own processes... ::)
Husband threatned divorce before he left, prior to BD. And for a few months after BD. I ignored him. He never come up with any papers during OW1. Think teh reason he gave OW1 was that I was not ready for it yet. True, I was not and had told him I was not against but needed time toget used to the idea.
What changed for husband to serve me fault divorce papers when OW2 come along? My guess is he wanted her to know he really was into her, that she was the one, that it was not going to be like with OW1.
Don't think OP is happy with way things are. Husband's OW1 may had decided to be the "nice girl", saying she understand how painful it was for him to divorce and that she would understand I need time (her type of behaviour), but thought they were going to last long. OW2 may be really upset but, what can she do? It is up to the court, not her.
Don't worry, Rookie, other person does pressure. What amazes me is how much pressure our spouses put up from other person. They would not put up with a 10th if it came from us. Nuts... ;D
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Interesting insight into a BPD relationship. Add an Affair and MLC and you have a horrible experience.
http://www.borderlinewaif.com/2011/02/experience-borderline-relationship-story/
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LGO, that was an interesting article. I agree about adding MLC to that is a BOMB waiting to happen. My ex absolutely has low self esteem and her choice in men prove it and that's what scares the hell out of me for my little ones.
The upside is i think the OP will see her "bad" side soon enough and will also not want to be tied down to my kids. I am NC and "out of the boxing ring" and that only leaves him for her to take out her frustrations on and she has a lot of that!
The other upside is I have my little ones every other weekend from Friday to Sunday and one day during the week for a few hrs so they don't lose touch with their dad!
Thanks for posting that article. Funny thing though is that the guy who wrote the post completely REALIZES all these "issues" with this woman and STILL thinks she is for him?? So who is more messed up in that post? LOL
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Funny thing though is that the guy who wrote the post completely REALIZES all these "issues" with this woman and STILL thinks she is for him?? So who is more messed up in that post? LOL
I think that is why he is blogging about it, He is trying to understand the pull she has on him.
I am glad you took yourself out of the way. doing such saved me.
Although I do not believe my husband is borderline (his mother is), he has acquired all of the traits. :( hoping they are not permanent!
My kids are screwed if they are! He sees them when it is convenient for him which is for a couple hours every couple of months. :(
You are a good, committed dad rookie. You kids are lucky to have you.
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LGO, that is an interesting article. But we need to remember that not all OW/OM are bordeline. As for the guy still miss the borderline woman, well, we miss our MLCers. And someone as to love and miss borderline people, right? 8)
Rookie, I think that, in some cases, the other person never sees the MLCer bad side. If they don't have us around they find something/someone else to lash the frustration upon.
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Thanks LGO, I believe my littler ones will be back here someday when they can make up their own mind.
My ex may be "away" for good but my kids are forever. I stood for my ex for a "long" time but I now stand for my children and keep my personal life to a minimum as they do not need two parents flying off the handle! lol I get more "appreciation" now from my teenagers then I ever did because they know what I went through and that I put them first. This crisis has also opened their eyes. My time will come again, just not now. I know the little ones ( 8,5) will grow up and be able to make their own decisions like my D19 and S16 who I have custody of. ( Actually S5 is autistic and probably won't be able to make his own decisions but I have been blessed with a sister who has her BCBA and is an autism specialist and she has been a BIG help so far with schools and such!). I just continue to reassure the little ones ( and the older ones) that they are special and LOVED by both and give them my full attention on the weekends I have them.
You are correct on that blogger person, between his ex dying of cancer and having a GF and trying to "blend" families and her with her issues, I'm not sure another person's opinion/advice would help other than a professional. I guess thats a pretty heavy load.
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Good point Anne, But in my case, I know for a fact the ex is overloaded with the little ones and has big money problems, can't keep order in her place as she cannot set controls on the kids and her place at least the last time i visited was very cluttered, messy and stunk like the 2 cats she has not to mention her car is always filled with trash! Lol. her true colors will shine to OM. Lol
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Rookie, but maybe OM does not see any of those things as a problem. Who knows? Everything is so strange in MLC.
See my husband's OW2. She knows the man is a mess, that he is taking me to court for the second time, after first time case closed because he could not prove a thing he claimed. She knows that, this time, he lied to manage to open a second case. He provided an address that he claims is hers, well, even if it was, he is the one that opened the case and there is no legal bond betwenn the two of them. She and him life in another address, that is their official address.
So, she knows the man does not mind lying to the court, she even helps and covers up for him. She also knows OW1 existed (she conforted the poor broken hearted man who had lost the love of his life, that is, OW1). How much more insane can it be?...And, still, those two are together for over 3 years and live in their new plush flat since 2 years ago. And, if you believe what people say of them as a couple, they are the perfect couple.
Well, yes, they are the perfect couple. They are perfect for each other. ;D
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I'm totally hijacking but have a quick question.
today is the anniversary of my h's dad's death. any advice on how much i should be involved or
contacting him.
My mom died 6 months before his dad did- that is when I think all of this began....but anyway- I figured since I understand how he feels...should I be telling him anything or should I stay back.
this is one of the moments where I feel I have no idea on how to act or what to do bc I know the pain he is feeling today!
any advice would be helpful
sorry for the hijack!!
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crazy, what sort of usual contact to you have with you husband?
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well we talk all the time...we run a business together so it is mostly business but
he obviously felt comfortable enough to text me
"it was 3 years ago today I lost my dad".
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ok, since you're in good talking terms and he text you about the subject, just send a short, simple, caring reply.
or, if you don't feel like reply the text and you are gonna see him tomorrow because of business just say something nice and polite tomorrow.
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C, I sent a text or email, can't remember which, saying "Thinking of you today." You could add, It must be hard for you. Validate his feelings. You know what they are.
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CfH,
I seem to remember you and your H do have contact so you could consider sending him a text along the lines of "thinking of you today on this anniversary." Something very short but heartfelt. That would be letting him know you remember but would be least construed as "pursuing."
My H's birthday was last week and, at my therapist's suggestion, I sent him a text saying "Happy B-Day!" That was all. He texted back within a few minutes with, "Thanks so much, LBS!" So I thought it was the appropriate thing to do.
I would have felt bad completely ignoring him. (This is his first birthday post BD.) But then H and I do have minimal but cordial contact once or twice a month.
It is so difficult to know what's too much, not enough, or the wrong thing.
MLC s****!
TMHP
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C, I sent a text or email, can't remember which, saying "Thinking of you today." You could add, It must be hard for you. Validate his feelings. You know what they are.
I would only use the "it must be hard for you" because that is the sequencial answer to his text. But if you're confortable with the "thinking of you today", use it as well.
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The thing is he said I am the only one that can relate cause I have lost a parent and
nobody else understands.
Exactly though- so hard to know what to say, how to act and don't want to be pursuing or too in his face.
Thanks- figured he needs to talk about it with "someone" who "understands" OW doesn't have a clue cause she
never even knew his dad...omg! this MLC is so hard to grasp...
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I hear that Anne, My ex's OM may just be who she is looking for and him being a dumpster dive, I could totally see them spending the rest of their lives together as I don't think he has much to offer her either so they could be a perfect match.
Good thing is I really don't care anymore. The hurt is 100% over for me. People here will learn you can only go through the ringer so many times! Lol.
Actually, I have my mojo back for life! Life looks/feels good again, have 2 of my kids in good order and working on the other 2. I have somewhat of a life on my off weekends. D 19 goes to school in GA and S16 has his license now and usually is away all weekend at friends so every other weekend I have no "responsibilities"! Lol This weekend I am going to a halloween party at a friends house and that should be fun.
But yeah, In my ex's sitch, 2 people who don't have much may "combine" to make ends meet. I am truly OK with that, I like me and to be honest, I am glad i am not her. I feel most off my work is done and she hasn't even started yet. It could get good for them or very ugly. Time will tell! Lol
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in response to the hijacker! LOL, seriously, nothing wrong with talking to him as much as he wants about that type of Anniv.
I cannot see that as pursing, I see it as more of a friend he needs to lean on. He's probably in tough shape right now and lending your ear and sympathy is not pursuing. I'd let him talk, Just my opinion.
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think you're right, crazy, your husband needs to talk with someone that has been trhough the same. and since you talk to each other, go ahead and be that person.
Trusting, after my husband left, and during OW1 I used to tell him happy birthday, merry christmas, happy new year and we did talk a bit too each other. Since it all changed no more greetings. Strange thing, the change. From CB to vanisher.
Rookie, glad to know you have your mojo for life back and that things are good with the kids.
Not sure if a MLCer and an alienatior manage to spend the rest of their lifes together...but...who knows? ;D
Feel the same way, almost all of my work is done and my husband has not even started his. No ideia how good or bad that would be to husband and OW2 but to husband and I it is not good he had not yet done any work on himself.
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Well...he just told me to have a good night so I think that's the end of the conversation.
I'm sure he can't text me all night- OW is there and needs ALL the attention...LOL!
Was going to text him "i'm here if you need to talk" but wasn't sure if that sounded too needy!
gosh i feel like i'm in hs as I have no idea what to say to my MLCer....
thanks for the advice Anne, TMHP, LGO and Rookie
Greatly appreciated
I felt like with his comments tonight (if I am reading between the lines) like he was trying to say that OW doesn't understand him as much as I do....now maybe that's reading too much into things but when H text me to say "People that haven't lost a parent really don't understand" I kind of get the feeling he is talking about OW
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Crazy, txt him "call me when you can if you want, i understand, it is tough". and leave it at that. H was/is a big part of your life as you were of his Dads I assume.
If he does call, try to keep the call centered around the Annv. and just relate is my best guess.
He may be experiencing a whole bunch of different emotions. not just the annv.
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Yes, sounds like the end of the conversation. Just let him be, crazy. He may be talking about OW, or more in general about people who nerver lost a parent won't be able to understand. Fact is he needed you, not OW for that.
Not sure if "I'm here if you need to talk" was too needy, since you're in talking terms, but no harm in have not said it.
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Exactly though- so hard to know what to say, how to act and don't want to be pursuing or too in his face.
Don't overthink this. He reached out to you because YOU ARE REAL... OW is temporary and not "real" for him... he knows this.
Just for the record, if your husband initiates contact and you respond or engage, it is NOT pursuing.... you're only talking about HIS feelings anyway at this point.... you really are there to just nod and go "Umm... it must be tough.... I know how you feel..... tell me more...."
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I've been reading this, and question much of it. That the OW is a doormat, into their money, the relationship won't last, etc.
IDK. Why 'isn't' it real/true? In my case, yes I believe the affair began out of his unhappiness/inner conflict, and I do believe she was very proactive in pulling him away to her. But my husband's relationship began at work and as friends perhaps years and years ago. The OW divorced her husband of 38 years right at the time my husband was leaving. Sadly, I now think it was all planned out despite my husband filing for D then dismissing the case a month later promising me the world and sounding happy.
I think they just grew together and while his choice in her is very a-typical (she's a decade older and looks 20 years older, 'very' unattractive, hated at work, and the relationship has folks 'creeped out'), she does make good money and can talk/spin amazingly well which is very ripe for an easily led man that puts an odd value on speaking ability.
The other thing... this is a rant... I have a right to be interested in if their affair is still going on, what they are doing etc. One might say MLC is MLC and he'd be in this place with or without OW. I disagree. I know if OW wasn't in the picture, we'd be minimally in counseling right now and the divorce process would be either stalled or not re-filed like it has been. Actually I'll be bold to say we'd be together. Period. So yes she exists in my world. It's been blatantly going on for over a year now via factual evidence (tho I believe building/existing before this), and went public in October. 8 months ago. Going public at work (they work together) seemed to cause a ramp up in their 'publicness'.
I've tried to slow the D process on the chance the affair would fizzle but it's not. Seems to be going strong. So I think in my case, it might be just a matter of falling in love with someone close to them at work and going for it.
Meanwhile, my atty filed a Motion to Dismiss/Strike which sent him over the edge to where my highly educated, classy husband decided to break into our house he abandoned 1.3 years ago to cherry pick belongings and snoop.
But I truly believe most of us here, if OW/OM went away, we'd be in a different place. I see OW/OM as the big stumbling block in all this and no matter if MLC or not-MLC led them to the affair... I see it as the elephant in the room and hard to get past that. How can one work on salvaging their relationship if spouse is so happy with their new person?
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I'm sure there are others that will be able to answer you better here, but there are a few things as an observer I can see from this that fit script.
But my husband's relationship began at work and as friends perhaps years and years ago. The OW divorced her husband of 38 years right at the time my husband was leaving.
I see a convenient, "first available, willing partner" scenario. A lot of us have that - women they worked with, mutual friends. In my case, my H's OW was one of the few women that took part in the only thing he did outside of our work together - colonial war reenacting. Availability, dissatisfaction with her own marriage = instant bond.
Sadly, I now think it was all planned out despite my husband filing for D then dismissing the case a month later promising me the world and sounding happy.
They don't fence-sit like that if it was planned. Sounds like the MLC tactic of fence-straddling to feel out what he wants to do.
One might say MLC is MLC and he'd be in this place with or without OW. I disagree. I know if OW wasn't in the picture, we'd be minimally in counseling right now and the divorce process would be either stalled or not re-filed like it has been. Actually I'll be bold to say we'd be together. Period.
I'd like to say this too. I think I read that men tend to leave once there's someone else in the picture, but that doesn't make the relationship that was there before any better, so you may have still been getting Monster, or seeing the MLC in your face, even without the OP.
Meanwhile, my atty filed a Motion to Dismiss/Strike which sent him over the edge to where my highly educated, classy husband decided to break into our house he abandoned 1.3 years ago to cherry pick belongings and snoop.
That's straight up MLC. What's he looking for? If it were just an affair and he was so happy, he would just get with his attorney to decide how to respond.
The OP changes the equation in so many ways, that's true, and we all have to decide whether or not that makes this worth it. Certainly if it's just an affair, it wouldn't explain all of the other behaviors. I truly hope that the pain this is causing subsides for you. :( It's a horrible position to be in, but know that in your world, you may consider it your business to know right now, but you can also consider yourself so far above her that you can't even see her.
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Gutted, OW/OM going away may not change things. Several of us have spouses who went through multiple OW/OM. When OW1 went away mine wanted to date me, turn me into his girlfriend. I now know that, at the time, he was already chatting up soon to be OW2 as well as several other women.
OW/OM may not always been after the money, they may be in need of, like the MLCer, to feel alive. Doormat I think they are. After all they took a married person for their partner. One cannot say they are very demanding. The relationship can last several years. Normally, even if it lasts several years, it fails.
Yes, you have the right to be interested in their affair. Or to not be interested. It is your choice.
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But I truly believe most of us here, if OW/OM went away, we'd be in a different place. I see OW/OM as the big stumbling block in all this and no matter if MLC or not-MLC led them to the affair... I see it as the elephant in the room and hard to get past that
I totally agree with this statement. But I do know that he isn't all that happy and BIL is waiting to see him fall even further before he does anything more. H is adamant he doesn't want a divorce to his BIL and says he has to prove something so whatever that is, oh well. In mean time I know I can't do anything, I am moving forward and love the fact that OW isn't all she thinks she is.
Editted for wrong quote brackets , <= [ >=]
RCR used the other ones in her exa,ple so you could see them in the post
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I was wondering....for those Hs that don't come out of the tunnel, can we simply expect them to continue their life with OW...since this "new" them is the one that stays permanent? Also, if OW1 leaves can we expect OW2 to come along for those who have given up everything without turning back? Also, do MLCers stay with OW longer if they have walked out of wife and young kids? Meaning...the more they have given up and the more damage they have done, the less likely they are to move through the tunnel and the more likely to try and make it work with OW?
I can see that with OW there are no bills to pay, no "responsibilities" at the beginning...but then they recreate what they have given up...so isn't it easier to simply stay with OW than have it not work out and face the guilt, the shame, etc, etc?
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I can see that with OW there are no bills to pay, no "responsibilities" at the beginning...but then they recreate what they have given up...so isn't it easier to simply stay with OW than have it not work out and face the guilt, the shame, etc, etc?
This was what I was afraid of with my EXH that the guilt and shame would eat him up so badly he would never face things and/or work on our relationship.
This only turned around when I agreed with him that we should see other people. He simply could not bear the thought of me being with someone else. I've been living with him for the past year now and the relationship leaves A LOT to be desired.
Maybe in some cases maybe it is just easier not to work on it..but the SAME issues are there with another woman.
And frankly I wish I hadn't taken all the phone calls I did and "been there" for him validating etc. He needed a snootful of what it would REALLY be like TOTALLY without me. I never went NC and wish I had.
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JAG, an OW2, 3, 4 can come along but that does not mean they are going to stay forever in the tunnel. In some cases, if they are short lived several OW it may even be better.
However I think that you’re on something. The more damage they’ve done, the longer they stay with the same alienator , especially if it is alienator nº 2 (3, 4) and the more they have invested with the alienator, the more difficult I may become for them to get out and return.
My husband had no joint bills to pay with OW1, he was living in rented rooms, she lived kilometres away with her parents. With OW2 they put up a big fancy trendy flat, they have all the bills a couple has. So much for not wanting responsibility. Plus, OW2 has lost her job late last year.
But, no, I don’t think my husband minds paying her bills. He is making a lot of money, showing it off to her.
Now, the problem with the MLCers that remain married and live with OW, not paying alimony, not looking after the spouse is, when divorce comes, they will have to compensate us. And, then, life with OW will be a little different.
Can they overcome the shame and guilt? Most of them, yes.
Yes, I would say it is easier to stay with OW than work all the issues. Problem is the relationship with OW will change. At a point the fantasy will give in. Unless, of course, they stay forever trapped in the tunnel. But that is rare. What is common is for many MLCers to end up on their own. The OW is gone, the LBS has mover forward, they are left on their own.
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I was wondering....for those Hs that don't come out of the tunnel, can we simply expect them to continue their life with OW...since this "new" them is the one that stays permanent? Also, if OW1 leaves can we expect OW2 to come along for those who have given up everything without turning back? Also, do MLCers stay with OW longer if they have walked out of wife and young kids? Meaning...the more they have given up and the more damage they have done, the less likely they are to move through the tunnel and the more likely to try and make it work with OW?
I can see that with OW there are no bills to pay, no "responsibilities" at the beginning...but then they recreate what they have given up...so isn't it easier to simply stay with OW than have it not work out and face the guilt, the shame, etc, etc?
Here is one of RCR's articles that may provide some insight
http://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/standing-actions_contact-and-communication_pursuit-and-distance_mlcer-run-when-alienator-gone.html
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IDK... I'm trying to be realistic. Maybe because my situation is so very over and this divorce is fully on track. Really how does one tell if it's an MLC driven affair vs. a real 'fallen in love' affair?
Their treatment of LBS? Well, what if that's how they handle breaking up? What if that's how they handle dumping a wife/marriage? So many of us have been married and/or together a very long time so how would we know 'how' they get out of a relationship? Long-termers surely can't have much to go on in that regard?
My husband was married before, and only now do I see a correlation. He never spoke to his ex-wife again. He claims the reason he didn't was because that was her request. Well, I'd love a film of it because for all I know she blurted it out in anger, etc. I know he's made no efforts. She was also extremely depressed and given the hell/pain he's dished to me.... I'm now thinking he made her that way. :(
IDK. I will never get answers. I never even deserved a convo about our marriage, etc. Or a valid/real explanation of why he's leaving other than he did everything to hide this affair with this creepy, balding, much older woman from work. Including decimating me with ugliness.
What if that was how he was all this time? What if he just mentally checks out/moves on and disposes of people? Are MLCers really hidden/latent socio/psychopaths/narcissists?
Anyway, I digress... back on topic... I have a vanisher. I've not seen him in 8-9 months, nor has the house/dog. The only emails I get are related to his urgent need for divorce with very rarely a sentence or 2 of a pleasantry. But it almost seems like he's just throwing it in the middle of D talk. I question if OW has helped to further poison his mind towards me. But I do know she's a 'pants wearer' type. The type to never allow us to be 'friends' in the future.
So yes in addition to breaking up our marriages when if in just plain MLC with no alienator - brings on or speeds up divorce.. It also cements that path for them. Which is why trying to delay divorce might make sense vs. giving them what they want.
I think in my case, my husband used me to bide time to make up his mind if he could be with ow in a very real and very long-term way. Once he made that decision, I didn't exist anymore to him. Further he claims to have done much soul-searching upon moving out and determined he'd be happier not being married to me. Sorry but I call BS as I think any soul-searching was more of worry what people would think of him with her, and committing to her fully.
I hope they have the life they both deserve.
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I'm not convinced that the OW leaving changes things but I think it may make us feel better. It certainly makes me feel better.
In my case I don't think OW is the issue. She has been in H's life for a LONG time and I believe she is either in MLC herself or using him. Over the last year they seem to spend less and less time together but that has not slowed down h's MLC. He has never mentioned her and nor have I. He keeps saying he just wants to be alone.