Midlife Crisis: Support for Left Behind Spouses
Archives => Archived Topics => Topic started by: Mermaid on July 06, 2010, 02:05:10 AM
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Midlife transitions and crises.
Here are ten brief summaries of some different perspectives on midlife transitions, and what may lead to a crisis. Note that midlife crisis is not a formal diagnostic category, as the age at which it strikes, its causes, symptoms and duration all vary. So before we think about midlife stages or our response, we need to consider what type of crisis our MLCer is having. It’s quite possible to have a mixture of causes or explanations, but the point is the MLC is not one thing only. Here are some perspectives:
1. Jungian perspective: ML is a normal part of the maturation process in which the person takes stock of where they are going in life, making some adjustments in order to live their life more fully and more as themselves rather than as the person they expected themselves to be. It is a crisis if they are experiencing stress or they have childhood issues that were never dealt with. See: Hollis, J. (1993) “The Middle Passage: From Misery to Meaning in Midlife” Inner City Books
2. Eriksonian perspective: the significant task of ML is generativity, that is, to perpetuate culture and transmit values of the culture through the family and a concern for the next generation and all future generations. However, crises can arise as (a) children leave home;(b) if individuals are either under extended (leading to stagnation) or (c) over extended (so generative that they no longer allow time for themselves, for rest and relaxation), leaving individuals self absorbed and struggling to find meaning. See Erikson, E.(1994) “Identity and the Lifecycle” W. W. Norton & Co
3. Evolutionary psychology perspective: Many middle-aged men do go through midlife crises, but it's not because they are middle-aged. It's because their wives are. From the evolutionary psychological perspective, a man's midlife crisis is precipitated by his wife's imminent menopause and end of her reproductive career, and thus his renewed need to attract younger women. See Miller, a. and Kanazawa, S, (2007) “Why Beautiful People Have More Daughters: From Dating, Shopping, and Praying to Going to War and Becoming a Billionaire-- Two Evolutionary Psychologists Explain Why We Do What We Do” Perigee Trade
4. Evolutionary ecological perspective: There are different hypothesis on the function/ evolution of the male female pair bond; they evolved for (a) male provisioning. (b) as a response to male mating competition when benefits of staying with a current mate outweigh costs of seeking new mates. (c) to protect against infanticide by aggressive males. However, parental investment and male mating competition accounted for significant cross-cultural variance in conjugal stability. The stability of the pair bond between males and females is threatened when either sex contributed the majority to subsistence. Steven N. Austad, (1994): "Menopause: An Evolutionary Perspective," Experimental Gerontology 255-63.
5. Biological perspective: Hormonal changes affect relationships and behaviour in midlife, leading to menopause in women and the irritable male syndrome in men. Symptoms include: anger and social withdrawal, irritability, hypersensitivity, anxiety, mood swings, depression, lack of libido. See Diamond, Jed (2004) The Irritable Male Syndrome: Managing the 4 Key Causes of Depression & Aggression, Rodale Press. (However, only 2% of males have significant hormonal changes in midlife.)
6. The effects of midlife stressors; midlife adults experience more "overload" stressors--basically juggling too many activities at one time. There are gender differences, however. Midlife women shoulder more "crossover" stressors--simultaneous demands from multiple domains like work and family--than their male counterparts and report higher levels of distress as a result. Socioeconomic status also makes a difference; midlife people with lower educational status report the same number of stressors as those with higher educational status, they are more likely to rate stressors as more severe. See Brim, G., & Kagan, J. (Eds.). (1980). Constancy and Change in Human Development, Cambridge, Harvard University Press. and Brim, G., & Baltes, P. B. (Eds.). (1979-1984). Life-Span Development and Behavior (Vols. II-VI). New York: Academic Press.
7. Depression: Whether a midlife transition will develop into serious depression or into an opportunity for growth depends on a number of factors, including support from partners and other loved ones. Symptoms of depression include; Change in eating habits; Change in sleeping habits, fatigue; Feelings of pessimism or hopelessness; Restlessness, anxiety or irritability; Feeling of guilt, helplessness or worthlessness; Loss of interest in activities once enjoyed, including sex and hobbies; Thoughts of suicide or attempts at suicide; Physical aches or pains such as headaches or gastrointestinal upset that don't respond to treatment. See Manber, R. Journal of Consulting and Clinical Psychology, June 2008: vol. 76; pp.459-67.
8. It’s not midlife, but stress burnout syndrome. The phases include working too hard; neglecting one’s own needs; displacing conflicts (projecting); revision of values; denial of emerging problems; withdrawal; inner emptiness and depression. The symptoms include: emotional exhaustion and reduced sense of personal accomplishment, see Maslach, C., Jackson, S.E, & Leiter, M.P. (1996 ) MBI: The Maslach Burnout Inventory: Manual. Palo Alto: Consulting Psychologists Press, Cardinell, C.E, (1981) “Burnout? Mid-Life Crisis? Let's Understand Ourselves.” Contemporary education.
9. It’s not a midlife crisis but a marriage crisis. Our roles have changed, as have our attitudes and expectations of marriage. See http://www.middleage.org/marriagecrisis3.shtml
10. Midlife is not a single thing: "Midlife crisis" is an umbrella term for what are really several different problems. One academic paper reported that "middle-aged Baby Boomers ... quite freely used the term “mid-life crisis” to describe nearly any setback, either in their career or family life, which they experienced. what people call "midlife crisis" can be one of four things. They are differentiated by: Whether the problem is tied to or triggered by middle age or one's own aging and mortality; and severity. A final type of midlife crisis isn't shown on our table because it isn't really a crisis -- it's an excuse. The popular belief that practically everyone goes through a psychological trauma at midlife, and that the crisis causes behavior ranging from silly purchases to thrill seeking and infidelity, provides cover for people who want to do those things anyway. One only has to read online or offline advice columns to see how frequently this rationale is used -- often by the wife of a man who's learned that it's easy to blame his "midlife crisis" for his transgressions. Digging deeper may reveal what's really going on. See http://lifetwo.com/production/node/20060824-types-of-midlife-crisis.
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Thats pretty interesting.
Good Job Mermaid.
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From this perhaps we can see where or how our MLC fits in.
In the case of my H, I think that the main factor was chronic stress, leading to physical illness and burnout . But there are personality factors in how we deal with stress (he is INFJ on the Myers Briggs scale), as well as experiences (carrying the responsibility for his family since the early death of his father), interactions (my stress meant I reacted negatively to his lack of support/ withdrawal/ projections), and stage of life (children growing up, having own interests).
So our marriage became a stress factor, rather than a supporting factor, the OW represented escape, and the confusion was pyschosomatic (which doesn't mean it is in his head, but that his mind affects physica and neurological responses). I still think he needs time, support, space, understanding, and that the Kubler Ross stages of dealing with extreme difficulties apply (Denial, Anger, Bargaining, Depression, Acceptance ), but not in a formulaic way.
He doesn't necessarily have a child within who needs to grow up or a shadow self to embrace, though it is an opportunity for growth.
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Ditto your "case of your H" up above. My H has the same issues, however he did have an alcoholic/absent father, and three marraiges between both parents. He has a low self esteem and seems to be trying to relive his high school years where the "pretty girl" liked him.
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I don't know exactly how it might fit under the perspectives, but as I read through the depression paragraph (#7), here are the words that stuck out to me. My ex-wife VERBALIZED to me several times over the past 6 months that she felt hopeless, anxious, fearful, and doubtful.
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Sounds like depression to me. Is she getting help with this?
I've put 10 ways of analysing what's going on, but sometimes several sections may make sense.
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Well, for me a number of things come up. First is the Jungian; that he really is re-evaluating who he is, what choices he made, what he wants. I know a university friend of his (who is also, perhaps even more so, my friend now) said that she was surprised that he ever had children, as she didn't think he'd ever want them.
(However, I remember him telling when they were around 4 me how great he thought it was that we did have the children, that he thought we'd have serious psychological problems if we hadn't had them....)
The depression; this was all brought on by the suicide of a very close friend.
Definitely the feeling that time is running out, that he wants to do things that he says I kept him from doing.
Total fear of aging -- where does that fit in? My H has always had that, I remember what he was like on his 30th birthday; let alone later. Even now he still panics at each birthday, this year as well he said so as much, that time was marching on, he couldn't say he was "early 40's" any more.....
The big about it being a marriage crisis to do with gender roles, etc., is also interesting; it may be due to that that he feels trapped in his role of provider, seeing me as just coasting along....
Excellent post, Mermaid!
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From Wikipedia "Carl Jung’s model contains five stages of midlife – Accommodation, Separation, Liminality, Reintegration, and Individuation. Accommodation refers to the different masks or personas people use for different situation in their lives. Basically, accommodation is the different ways people present themselves to others. Those who present personas that are not in line with their inner selves tend to have more difficult times in midlife as opposed to those who present personas close to their inner selves.
Separation deals with the evaluation of the different personas and masks and discovering why certain masks are used and if they refelct the inner self accurately. In the Liminality stage, the person may feel unsure of his/her identity and looks towards others for feedback. Reintegration occurs when the person when the person begins to feel comfortable with himself or herself although a bit of uncertainty is still normal. Finally, in the individuation stage, the person recognizes inner comflict, accepts it, and attempts to discover a balance between these conflicts.
When going through midlife, the above five stages are meant to be a guide, not a strict rule of order. The stages can take varying amounts of time for different people and can also be left and reentered. This process of midlife stages is there to help those going through midlife realize that they are not abnormal. These thoughts and feelings are being experienced by others going through the same process. "
A bit different to Conway's stages?
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Sherman writes ""there is as yet no evidence for developmental periods or 'stages' in the mid-life period"
Edmund A. Sherman - 1987 "male mid-life crisis" - Psychology
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Personality makes a difference to midlife experience:
"Individual differences in extraversion and neuroticism in early adult life influence levels of well-being reported in midlife"
From Abbot et al 2008 "The relationship between early personality and midlife psychological well-being: evidence from a UK birth cohort study" Social Psychiatry and Psychiatric Epidemiology
(This study was about British women. Other studies have indicated that culture makes a difference too. MLC is rare in certain cultures, such as Japan.)
My MLCer is introverted, and uses his introversion as a defence mechanism to avoid the world and communication with it, so pathological attitudes could develop without my awareness.
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The reference to accomodation and the ways of presenting themselves to others and those who present personas that are not in line with their inner selves tend to have more difficult times in midlife.
I can certainly see my H in this.
For years he has been extremely ambitious. He is not a confident person by nature, very much like myself in being quite reserved and shy. Yet for a long time now he has constantly pushed himself career wise, forcing himself into high profile situations that have made him physically ill at times. He has spoken at political conferences in front of hundreds of people and on TV, and I know how he has struggled to cope with his nerves and yet he still pushes himself to do this even now and I know this has never got any easier for him.
Yet now through his MLC he is has become that confident somewhat arrogant person that is single minded in getting what he wants no matter the cost.
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I've been looking at burnout syndrome (the consequence of chronic stress) as one of the causes of apparent midlife crisis. Not all MLCers have burnout, but I'm fairly sure mine has. He's a doctor, and has the lifestyle and personality most likely to lead to burnout. He still needs to address the cause of his controlling, perfectionist personality, and learn to relax and accept his life and people around him. He feels trapped, hopeless and a loss of emotions, among other things. My stance as a LBS must still be to detach, not to demand, but perhaps in my case, I need to be very understanding and loving.
"Chronic emotional exhaustion, depersonalisation and stress-related disinterest – symptoms of burnout – may be more common in doctors than many other professional groups, given the nature of the work, the working environment, and in many cases, lack of support. Many studies report high levels of burnout in doctors, with psychological morbidity ranging from 19% to 47%, compared with a rate around 18% for the general employed population
Some people are more prone to develop burnout syndromes than others. It is the nature of our personalities that defines how we appraise and interpret the different work characteristics. There is a general agreement in the medical literature that obsessive, compulsive, conscientious, and committed personality characteristics are common in doctors. These personality qualities are a source of vulnerability in doctors because they may result in dysfunctional perfectionism, inflexibility, over-commitment to work, isolation of affect, dogged persistence and an inability to relax. When demands are excessive and loss of control threatens these kinds of personalities, the scene is set for a negative outcome – such as burnout."
Symptoms of burnout:
1- Hopelessness
2- Sadness
3- Cynicism
4- Irritability
5- Short temper
6- Exhaustion
7- Frustration and lack of power
8- Lack of enthusiasm.
9- Pessimistic thinking
10- Isolation
11 -Blunted emotions
12 -Life doesn't seem worth living
13 -Emotional detachment
14 -Depression
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My MLCer is introverted, and uses his introversion as a defence mechanism to avoid the world and communication with it, so pathological attitudes could develop without my awareness.
That is my wife to a T. She was taught to stuff it down and carry on, and she even knows this about herself.
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Midlife is an opportunity to rebalance. My H has started communicating a lot more, with my encouragement. He even thinks he says too much, but speaking helps him process.
Can you enourage your W to speak?
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I have been trying to this entire time. When she tries to say something and stops, I encourage her to keep talking.
But apparently she still internalizes a lot because I didn't expect her to actually move out.
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This is a very interesting topic. I have often told friends that MLC is more like a diagnosis of cancer. There are many forms and types. Some are easier to treat and react to as compared to others. There are some common symptoms in all situations. I also feel that the crisis strikes men and women differently and creates different reactions out of both.
Like many other ailments, the MLC has largely been ignored. I think as more and more sites like this develop. Then there will be a drive to create research into MLC. Remember, twenty years ago, autism was an unknown ailments that was originally diagnosed as mothers who failed to create a loving bond with the infant! A lot changes over time and I feel that MLC is one of them.
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Absolutely! The worst part is that they can't be cured, but have to cure themselves.
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Symptoms of burnout:
1- Hopelessness
2- Sadness
3- Cynicism
4- Irritability
5- Short temper
6- Exhaustion
7- Frustration and lack of power
8- Lack of enthusiasm.
9- Pessimistic thinking
10- Isolation
11 -Blunted emotions
12 -Life doesn't seem worth living
13 -Emotional detachment
14 -Depression
When I look at all 14 symptoms I see 14 different Bomb Drops. 14 which could be used as an excuse why they are in love with someone else. Don't get me wrong these symptoms are accurate but if our partners or ex-partners were well grounded all of what they feel should be discussed to us. If they don't feel comfortable with us then they could go to a Psychologist, a Doctor, a pastor, or priest. Now, we as LBSers in our lifetime may have felt one or two in this list why didn't we go out and have an affair? As children didn't we experience things while growing up. example: Feeling that your parents have a favorite child and it's not you, or something like being moved from state to state, or not being able to get the expensive toys that your classmates get. Anyway, just my thoughts. The information is valuable but don't use it as a crutch to throw you off from detaching. IMHO our focus should still be on ourselves, getting to a point where we become a whole person.
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I very much enjoy reading different theories about this. And I find there are more commonalities with our MLC spouses than not...or it seems that way at first glance at least.
With that said, first and most importantly, I would also like to see this get alot more mainstream attention and be less the focus of jokes and more the focus of something that is at least akin to an emotional illness.
I must confess that I bristle at the theory regarding men having an MLC due to their wife's age. I may be knee jerk reacting here and maybe I really do have my back up but it seems to me that it's a sneaky way to blame women for their biology. What, we can't even get our biology right?
If on the other hand that this theory is true, then that would make me even more ticked off. I would say if it is true, then I have even less sympathy for the male MLCer than I do now...which is not much frankly. And if that theory is true, how would they theorize women in MLC? Men don't have a biological timeclock..or not much at least. So this one just doesn't cut it with me. And if I'm wrong and it's someday proven to be true, well, I give up.
I would think it more likely that nature, nurture, culture (worship of youth, lax morality in the culture) and present situation (in part perhaps such as debt, failed dreams, etc) are the root cause.
But who knows.
I always enjoy reading these theories so thanks for posting.
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I don't know anything about the author or her credentials, but this article, and some that are associated with it, sums things up for laymen pretty neatly.
http://divorcesupport.about.com/od/isdivorcethesolution/f/midlifecrisis.htm
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Symptoms of burnout:
1- Hopelessness
2- Sadness
3- Cynicism
4- Irritability
5- Short temper
6- Exhaustion
7- Frustration and lack of power
8- Lack of enthusiasm.
9- Pessimistic thinking
10- Isolation
11 -Blunted emotions
12 -Life doesn't seem worth living
13 -Emotional detachment
14 -Depression
When I look at all 14 symptoms I see 14 different Bomb Drops. 14 which could be used as an excuse why they are in love with someone else. Don't get me wrong these symptoms are accurate but if our partners or ex-partners were well grounded all of what they feel should be discussed to us.
Our partners can use any number of excuses when breaking up with us. That's not the point at all. The idea was to discuss whether there is ONE set of behaviours that we can classify as MLC, and alternative explanations for the same behaviours. Chronic burnout is not an excuse, it's the scientifically studied reaction to long term stress that has not been dealt with, leading to a set of symptoms which can make the individual partially or totally disfunctional in work and home settings. The person concerned probably won't use these as an excuse. The total loss of emotions (anhedonia) leaves the person concerned means that rational decisions cannot be made, as norepinephrine, dopamine and acetylcholine all carry emotions from the brain and create somatic reactions. The person is "lost", like someone who has had memory loss. It's a pathology, but it may not be fully recognised or understood by the patient.
Now, we as LBSers in our lifetime may have felt one or two in this list why didn't we go out and have an affair? As children didn't we experience things while growing up. example: Feeling that your parents have a favorite child and it's not you, or something like being moved from state to state, or not being able to get the expensive toys that your classmates get.
First, this is trivialising the pain and the abuse that some MLCers suffered as a child.
Second, it misunderstands the interreaction of person, relationships and context. Events are not so linear, so cause and effect to be able to explain or predict human behaviour. When we try to understand what our MLCers have gone through, we can only build up a sketchy map of reactions, emotions, and a sense of non adjustment. It's not a thorough analysis, but it helps in coming to terms with what has happened, and realising that it's not our fault.
The information is valuable but don't use it as a crutch to throw you off from detaching. IMHO our focus should still be on ourselves, getting to a point where we become a whole person.
This is absolutely the point, and the only healthy way to survive this; detach, not get drawn into their drama, focus on ourselves. The rest are tools in our understanding and our acceptance.
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Here's another very interesting perspective of midlife, crisis, transitions, anhedonia and alexithymia.
flora.insead.edu/fichiersti_wp/inseadwp1998/98-86.pdf (http://flora.insead.edu/fichiersti_wp/inseadwp1998/98-86.pdf)
Abstract: In this paper, attention is paid to a dysfunctional emotional behavior pattern whereby individuals experience very little (or a total absence of) pleasure. Instead, there is a feeling of emotional numbness. Although this phenomenon touches all parts of life, this paper focuses on the organizational context. For some executives, the stresses and strains of midlife (including stresses involving career issues) become the catalyst for this dysfunctional emotional behavior. Their reactions are of a quasi-alexithymic and anhedonic nature. Some of the characteristics of this dysfunctional emotional pattern are delineated in these pages. In addition, the related experience of depersonalization is highlighted. Some of the factors that contribute to these kinds of phenomena are explored. At the end of the paper, a number of recommendations for dealing with these difficulties are given.
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This is a great topic and I feel like the existence of this forum is proof that MLC is real. The stories are too similar, the scripts, the behaviors, all of it are too similar to deny it. There are two interesting books that I have read that make me believe that the triggers are external.
In Crossing Paths by Steinberg, they write about how adolescence of children is a trigger for parents. It's a great book with so much validity. I discovered this just before his MLC and I told him to read it, to which he responded almost violently about how I always think he has a problem--I didn't, I just thought it was interesting. I found it in the giveawy book pile in the hall of his workplace--he's a professor, so there's always good stuff in there...
And right now I am reading Giving the Love that Heals by Hendrix. In that book, he and his wife allege that people have a hard time getting through stages where they were hurt as children--that we only instinctively parent the way we were parented and if we were ever challenged or stunted, we will face challenges as parents. The interesting thing for me is that I never felt I would make a good parent because I knew I wasn't parented well. My parents are good people and they love me as best as they can, but emotionally they were just immature--that's what happens with teen parents, in many cases... So I always strived to train and educate myself. I have never felt like an instinctive parent. Most people are not when they call "conscious parents" and so they relive their family of origin struggles with their kids.
And therein lies the MLC, I think it's some of the best reasoning I've seen on the matter, anyway, but I learn more stuff every day!
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This is a great topic and I feel like the existence of this forum is proof that MLC is real.
I think that might be circular reasoning.
Although I agree with the existance of MLC, I have been on a bunch of marriage forums that do not beleive in MLC.
They bash it and trash it and find every reason why it is not real.
SO they have a forum that says it doesn't exist, that contradicts your reason above.
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This is a great topic and I feel like the existence of this forum is proof that MLC is real.
I think that might be circular reasoning.
Although I agree with the existance of MLC, I have been on a bunch of marriage forums that do not beleive in MLC.
They bash it and trash it and find every reason why it is not real.
SO they have a forum that says it doesn't exist, that contradicts your reason above.
But are they living with it? What is their basis for saying it's not real? I would love to hear it because a part of me didn't believe it either, until BD.
I guess I think it's a matter of how you define it. If you try to tell me that my husband is sane right now, I would know you're nuts, and in most all these cases, these are not sane people who one day up and walk away from reasonable marriages and families. You can call it a transition if you want, but I would still say it's an abrupt transition.
The most amazing thing to me in all these cases is that there is a BD. I know people who got divorced because it wasn't "right." Whether it was never right, or grew poorly, things got bad, they went to counseling, fought a lot, whatever, until one day they knew it was over, but they can't pinpoint a DATE. The thing in all of these cases is the existence of a DAY, a moment when everything changed. The fact that things may have gotten stale or less good over time, like all marriages, but in almost all cases, the LBS is truly surprised.
That's the one thing for me that shows MLC, not just a case of a marriage gone wrong, but a true crisis, with a breaking point. I wouldn't argue that it might be better named, but the cases are all so similar that there has to be a name for a phenomenon for people who break, at some life turning point, usually following a personal crisis or challenge and make changes that would not have been a match for their previous character. When a majority of friends and acquaintances cock their head to the side and say "s/he did what?" that's an MLC, just my HO, and I have been wrong SO many times, I lost count, so it's worth nothing, but just my current thinking on the topic ;-)!
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I agree MLC usually have the close relatives and friends going Where the hell did that come from.
Whereas a "normal" break down of a marriage (relationship) can be seen over a period of time. The people don't lose their core values whereas in MLC they do.
Dearheart alienated all his friends. Nearly every weekend he would go round the corner to assist his quadraplegic friend in the morning. He would spend a couple of hours chatting and carrying on if there was nothing pressing. He would go back in the evening to help again briefly and then once again on the sunday morning briefly.
He did this nearly every weekend for 8 years. Now nothing. He has seen them 2 maybe 3 times. they wait just as patiently for the real Dearheart to appear.
Our next door neighbour and he used to also do a lot together. In fact he and N used to stand for hours chatting over the back fence planning things together and Dearheart talked N out of cheating on his wife when a woman was throwing herself at N. We went away on holidays together and everything. N was devastated when Dearheart left as Dearheart didn't talk to him. And Dearheart acts as if N is an enemy.
We have another neighbour with whom Dearheart did things with as well but now although this neighbour tries to talk to him Dearheart is very stilted. their is no friendship on his behalf. N2 keeps lines open he sees Dearheart deep in depression andeven read up about it.
He was also involved with his family. We would see them at least once a month BBQ here, BBQ there. Hardly at all now. Christmas was the last time he saw them, almost 4 months.
So sad.
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After BD my W's transformation was so sudden and drastic that I began my
internet research by typing in "Jungian cult." I didn't know anything about MLC then.
My W was a member of the Jungian society
and reading many Jungian books. I suspected maybe she joined some
kind of a cult since only a cult member would do such outrageous
things as running away from their marriages and families impetuously. Another word crossed my mind was
"enchanted." It felt like someone had casted a spell on my W. My W was there
physically but her mind was occupied by a stranger I couldn't recognize.
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It's real.
The question I have is, does the amount of estrogen from birth control pills and animal hormone boosters that is flushed into our water system and bred into our food have anything to do with it? Just as some of us have concerns that these hormones are causing early puberty in children, I wonder if the estrogen is affecting men....j
I don't think a discussion about MLC can be had in our society without it becoming either a JOKE, or a judgement that it is just bad behavior and you married a jerk who cheats and lies and it's time to move on. BUT.... a discussion about TOO MUCH ESTROGEN robbing men of their MANHOOD and giving them sever PMS symptoms would get a lot of attention! And since our doctors are now essential prescription writers, they might actually PAY ATTENTION when a man comes to them complaining of inability to focus, lack of sex drive, urge to abandon, etc. instead of writing a prescription for Cialis and Valium like my husband's doctor did! :o :o
Perhaps instead of COUNSELING, which many men will NOT attempt, we should start with some testosterone cream prescriptions - you know, a "fix it" approach to get the ball rolling. Suzanne Sommers has taken up BIO IDENTICAL HORMONE REPLACEMENT THERAPY as he personal cause and has written several EXCELLENT books outlining her experience with it.... they are CHOCK FULL of info on practitioners, nutrition, etc. and how to get what you want from the medical community. Yes, her husband is on them, as well.... tailor made for MEN! Her approach is about health and longevity, but also about remaining vibrant and sexual throughout our later years when hormone levels are dropping or non existent.
I urge everyone here to consider getting her latest book from the library and skimming through to see if this approach might be more helpful IN THE BEGINNING to possibly stave off the most severe behaviors of MLC.
Probably too late for our husbands as they are in the full on throes of their CRISIS, but I'd still like to rub some T cream on my husband while he sleeps just to see if it helps him feel better! ;)
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Nope don't think that hormones in the water will be the answer.
We have people on this board from all over the world. I sthe water bad everywhere?
I also think it is more complicated than just hormones.
Hormones are one factor only.
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How I wish there was a remedy! I am an MLC believer. Even though I would acknowledge our marriage was not perfect, I never doubted his love for me and the man I lay down with everynight would never have left his children.
For me MLC is very real. I don't believe a name change would shift public opinion, so scathing of the hurt and devastation caused but maybe identifying what causes the natural transition (age old) to become a crisis in some men, be it hormonal or unresolved childhood issues,would help future generations. I worry for my two daughters.
HA
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I too believe it's real. I just wish that there would be a way to definitively say that in the end they will come back. Sort of like other illnesses, for example Cancer. At least with Cancer there is a cure depending on what stage cancer you have, and if the Doctor tells you Stage 4 then there will be closure and start preparing my Will, Funeral, and Life Insurance to take care of my love ones when I pass away. I hate the feeling of just being comforted, and I hate the feeling that your close friends are just saying what you want to hear and not what the real deal is.
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These forums are just a small sample of how many of these MLC's there truly are. I can't tell you how many people I have met in the last three years who have directly or indirectly affected by MLC. It is amazing.
How it still remains a joke is beyond me?
The biggest reason I believe it exists is the core value shift. My h has changed his thoughts on so many things. He was crystalized in his views which he simply tossed aside. He has strong values in marriage, family, and commitment. He never ever spoke of any thing other than a solid future with me. He had the highest integrity of any person I have ever known.
All of that is just nonexistent right now. His friends and his family are baffled by his behaviors. His only allies are his co-workers which he can keep informed only at his discretion. He has told me many times about their divorce advice given so freely. Things like, "So-and-so says you are going to rake me over the coals!" I can only imagine how he portrays me. I have never said one word about financials, other than when he asked if I wanted our marital home, I told him "yes".
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OP, I didn't mean to imply that hormones in the water are the sole cause of midlife depression .... however, given that MLC is a JOKE in our society, I wonder if approaching the topic of MLC through the hormonal changes would be a way to open discussion of the seriousness of midlife issues for some men (and women). I also wonder if balanced hormones wouldn't stave off some of the more destructive behaviors.... possibly avoiding a CRISIS, but navigating a transition.
Personally, I know my husband would be MORE open to the idea of balancing his hormones as a means to feeling better, healthier, stronger.. more like himself.... if his DOCTOR suggested it. Instead, his doctor just wrote him a prescription for VALIUM because he said he was feeling stressed over his job... :o :o she's a frikkin' pill pusher! He's had his hormones checked and been told they are in the "normal" range.... for whom? A 47 year old? Cuz where you want to be is on the HIGH side of about 22 years old for optimum health! But who do you think he listens to? His doctor, or ME? Not me... and his doctor told him he had to cut out the Monster drinks.... they aren't good for him - too much caffeine.... but do you think she knows about his excessive drinking? Or his diet? NO! That's what his cholesterol meds are for.... and do you think she wonders if his ED is due to depression? I mean, he's been on Cialis for YEARS!! He's fairly young for ED..... NO, NO, NO....she doesn't even QUESTION it... just writes him a prescription.
DEPRESSION is going untreated in these men and women... and I don't recommend pills for that either, by the way, because my BF husband has been on them for YEARS as his business has been tanking since 9/11 and he's pretty much a dialed out zombie.... I was just there and experienced him as he is on pills..... I've known him for 30 years..... he is like the living dead...
I just wonder if the discussion couldn't be OPENED UP with a focus on the hormonal changes and how they affect mood and the feelings about aging, etc. No one takes the AFFAIR as a symptom of depression.... it's all a big joke, or a reflection on how the wife must not be "meeting his needs". Just my opinion.
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I agree with LisaWeaves. If it was an ordinary break-up you would both know about it as some discussion at least would have taken place. I knew we were in a bit of a rut but all relationships go through that - I had no idea when he told me in the middle of an open area at work that he was going off to see the OW that this was what he was going to say. There had been no forewarning at all.
He's also been on anti-depressants on and off for the last five years so they obviously don't help.
As everyone has said, I just wish this could be treated seriously and some proper research into MLC could be done. As can be seen by this forum, it affects so many people but I'm afraid before this, I had never had any experience of it. I went to a school reunion on Saturday and met people I hadn't seen for 34 years (scary!). One of them was on the team who discovered a drug for rheumatoid arthritis. I was telling her about it and we both though it merited serious research (hope she might be able to influence someone in that direction!) She did also tell me she had a friend whose husband had left her and thought it was MLC so I sent her the link to this forum in the hope that it would help as it has me.
The other interesting thing today was that we mentioned something at work and said that it would have changed in a hundred years and we'd all be dead and gone by then. He didn't like that and said that he would like to be young forever. I pointed out that you wouldn't have the benefit of all life's experiences, but he said that there were plenty of experiences he would prefer to do without...
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I don't believe in midlife crisis in the sense that you turn forty and suddenly you lose your mind. It is not really age specific. Instead, the crisis is a reaction to an event we all go through. While most of us transition, there seems to be a group that regress back or fight the natural progression towards death.
For some reason, their actions become very self-centered, focused on having fun, and seeking a life that they feel they missed. In many forms, it is depression, bipolar symptoms, and narcissism all wrapped into one crisis. They become forgetful, angry, and seem to be dissatisfied with their current life. There seems to be a trigger that brings up past trauma that needs to be resolved in order to move forward.
I don't believe in the term midlife because it specifies and age versus an event that triggers an identity change that deals with unresolved childhood and teenage issues. I think it is more of a syndrome but that the seeds are planted in childhood and adolescence then triggered during adult life by an event that brings these issues to the forefront.
Just my two cents worth.
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I'm still not sure if MLC is real or not. All of my reading and searching for answers to how my W has changed/behaved indicate that it is, but I agree and strongly identify with what readytofixmyselffirst wrote - this is exactly how I see things.
My W's MLC(?) :-\ was triggered by multiple bereavements and basically the disintegration of her family in 4 years, her job not going right, approaching 50 and being perimenopausal, the kids becoming independent plus her friends getting cancer and dying or being treated. She has hooked up with an old BF from 30 years ago, is saying that she wants to 'have 'fun', 'live', that 'life is not a rehearsal', 'it's my time', etc, etc. All pretty standard stuff from what I can gather. But I think there is a link to her parents and how she saw their marriage.
She was a late child - conceived by accident in her parents late 30s/early 40s. Her mother always thought that her father had let her down and ignored her because he was very regimented and worked long hour, then when he retired and it was 'her time' he didn't notice her and carried on in his regimented way invading her space. W saw all this whereas her younger sisters (by 9 and 12 years) didn't (or not so much) because they'd left the family home long before. So I think W is seeing herself as her Mum and is terrified she'll end up bitter, resentful and basically feeling that she's been cheated of her happiness.
Just my 2p worth! ;)
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The Midlife Crisis Is a Total Myth
http://www.livescience.com/12930-midlife-crisis-total-myth.html (http://www.livescience.com/12930-midlife-crisis-total-myth.html)
The idea that midlife crises are common is a myth, experts say
"There is no specific time in life that predisposes you to crisis," said Alexandra Freund, a life-span researcher at the University of Zurich in Switzerland.
"There can be times when things crystallize as very problematic, a very deep disturbance in your life," Freund told LiveScience. "People experience these types of crises, but they are not at all related to age."
Instead, Lachman said, crises are usually spurred by some event that can happen at most any age, such as a career setback, the death of a friend or relative, or an illness.
Epidemiologists have found no spike in negative events – such as career disillusionment – in middle age, Freund explained.
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And of course the people they talked to would admit to MLC.
Hard enough getting women to admit to post partum depression let alone a MLC when they DON'T think anything is wrong.
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Arp1
The things you are describing are symptomatic of MLC. Here is info from RCR on that.
Symptoms
•Preoccupation or fear of aging or death
•Vanity: Obsession with appearance
•Dissatisfaction with previous goals
•Life of Accommodation has left him feeling trapped
•Impulsive or Compulsive Behaviour
•Irritability
•Restlessness
•Substance abuse
The above list is comprised of symptoms, not causes. Aging does not cause midlife crisis--it is inevitable; midlife crisis is not. Since midlife crisis seems to be isolated to technologically advanced Western cultures lacking in ritual rites of passage, ageism is often blamed, but it is also not a cause of midlife crisis; rather it is an incubator, providing ideal cultural conditions. Symptoms are outward manifestations, not the cause of the crisis. It is in the extremes of these behaviours and their opposing difference from a person's stasis that we find crises.
In your wife's case, as with all MLCers, we see the symptoms......as the article says.....they are the outward manifestations or the things that are noticed or verbalized. It's hard to say for certain, but as you wrote in your post, you are aware of some probably unresolved emotional issues from when she was growing up.
As far as the term Midlife Crisis.....it's just a descriptor. MLC is an emotional development crisis.....and if it happens during midlife, then it simply describes it.
If your wife's behavior is real.....and it obviously is.....and it has suddenly changed radically, then it's probably an emotional crisis. It's real......no matter what anybody calls it.
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I think MLC is a misnomer. It's a deep existential personal predicament. A Depp. Sounds so much more appealing, doesn't it, even to a Narcissist?
"I'm just having a DEPP. Don't worry, I'll get over it"
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Listen up, people.... Mid LIfe Crisis is REAL and it happens in MID LIFE!! Mid Life is anywhere between mid thirties and 60 as I understand it... it can be triggered by loss, is triggered by an overwhelming wondering "is that all there is" and absolutely is related to age.... who here hasn't looked in the mirror and wondered "WTH!! I look just like my mother.... but I feel 30...."?
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Mermaid.
My h went to a psychiatrist who said, "Oh, it´s an existential depression." in a flippant manner and we did not make much progress after that.
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Label it what you will; but the fact is; the CRISIS itself is real enough; one that is deep enough to tear families down; wreck people's lives; and it takes time to navigate; IF it's ever navigated.
It doesn't matter why or how it happens; the fact is it HAPPENS; and there's nothing that could be done by anyone EXCEPT the person who experiences it; to either resolve it before it hits, or come through it without running away, when it does.
There are very few people who are cognizant enough to recognize what they are going through; the fog and confusion is that deep; and the crazy person doesn't recognize they are crazy; they just know what their perception tells them; and it's usually WRONG; because they are looking in the WRONG direction for their fix; outward, instead of inward. :)
There are NO quick fixes, no fixing another person...this is an emotional and spiritual battle that must be fought and overcome by the person going through.
It is a FACT that childhood damage can be successfully hidden UNTIL the MIDDLE of life; before it forces its way out to be seen; and the worst issues are the ones that are seen FIRST early within the crisis itself; most of the time these worst instances of damage are what's run from; because they are the MOST painful to deal with.
True, it takes a trigger to throw them into the crisis/transition; but sometimes; the pressures of a well meaning LBS who doesn't understand what's wrong can be trigger enough to bring out the monster within.
I know it's real, because I LIVED through it with my husband; and EXPERIENCED it, myself and nobody can tell me any different.
And yes, LG; I've looked in the mirror; and said "Oh My God; it's my MOTHER!" LOL!!
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Myth smyth..... And whatever is my response. This thing is real... call it what you want. Maybe we should call it what it really is....
The "I have decided to become a selfish SOB and leaves those I have loved behind in my dust to suffer immense pain. All by my actions disease. "
Just my .02.
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I read a book about a neuroscientist who had a stroke on the LHS of her brain, leaving her with only the emotional, spiritual RHS, and no language or internal narratives ("My Stroke of Insight").
It's not like our MLCers have had a stroke, but in some ways, there LHS and RHS may have become disassociated, one side (left) being more dominant, leaving them with a sense of an unfulfilled self. This has parallels with Jungian psychology and the shadow self. When I told H the story, he recognised the relevance of this. The RHS is almost like an inner child, free, playful, emotional, with the potential for great happiness.
I followed up my hunch that MLC / stress may be connected to LHS brain regions, and I found signs that there are neurological changes in midlife, which mirror those described by Jung, and that severe stress (burnout) leads to left hemisphere disfunction;
The effects of toxic stress on emotional health
· Anxiety with panic attacks, irritability, even angry outbursts
· Reinforcing the anxiety and avoidance brain circuit in the amygdalar region of the right hemisphere
· Inhibiting the optimistic, future-planning circuit in the prefrontal cortex of the left hemisphere.
http://betterthancured.blogspot.com/2010_03_01_archive.html (http://betterthancured.blogspot.com/2010_03_01_archive.html)
Post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) is characterised by disturbances in concentration and memory, symptoms which are a source of further distress for patients. Related to this, abnormalities in underlying working memory (WM) systems have been identified [Clark, C.R., McFarlane, A.C., Morris, P., Weber, D.L., Sonkkilla, C., Shaw, M.E., Marcina, J., Tochon-Danguy, H.J., Egan, G.F., 2003. Cerebral function in posttraumatic stress disorder during verbal working memory updating: a positron emission tomography study. Biological Psychiatry 53, 474-481.], indicating dysfunction in left hemisphere brain regions. In this study, we performed functional magnetic resonance imaging (fMRI) in 13 patients with severe PTSD and matched non-traumatized Controls, during performance of visuo-verbal tasks that involved either maintenance or continual updating of word stimuli in WM. The PTSD group failed to show differential activation during WM updating, and instead appeared to show abnormal recruitment of WM updating network regions during WM maintenance. These regions included the bilateral dorsolateral prefrontal cortex (DLPFC) and the inferior parietal lobe (IPL). Several other regions were significantly more activated in Controls than in PTSD during WM updating, including the hippocampus, the anterior cingulate (AC), and the brainstem pons, key regions that are consistently implicated in the neurobiology of PTSD. These findings suggest compensatory recruitment of networks in PTSD normally only deployed during updating of WM and may reflect PTSD patients' difficulty engaging with their day-to-day environment.
http://www.growing.com/mind/PTSD/Docs/PTSD_0901.htm (http://www.growing.com/mind/PTSD/Docs/PTSD_0901.htm)
In most people, the left hemisphere specializes in speech, language and logical reasoning, while the right hemisphere handles more intuitive tasks, such as face recognition and the reading of emotional cues. But as scientists have recently discovered through studies with PET scans and magnetic resonance imaging, this pattern changes as we age. Unlike young adults, who handle most tasks on one side of the brain or the other, older ones tend to use both hemispheres. Duke University neuroscientist Robert Cabeza has dubbed this phenomenon Hemispheric Asymmetry Reduction in Older Adults—HAROLD for short—and his research suggests it is no accident.
http://www.coachinglogic.com/Myth_of_the_Midlife_Crisis.htm
Just some thoughts.
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I completely agree that this is real no matter what label is attached to it. My W who I've been with for 21 years was always loving toward me and especially the kids. We were very physical and hugged each other and the kids several times a day as one of the love languages we shared. We also set aside time for the kids each day and weekend and usually did things as a family. We were very close, physically and emotionally. We put our kids through Catholic school and brought them up believing in the church's teachings. We had them go through all the sacraments.
Now, she really is the direct opposite of what she was. She has turned not only against the church but against God himself and mocks those who follow, she doesn't even want to be touched by me and desires no relationship other than mutual parents, and worst of all she has left the kids and seems to have no real desire to see them and only comes by because she has to.
All this, and she brags to friends about leaving us and expects everyone to praise her. The brief times she spends with the kids she takes their picture and posts it on FB so that others will think she's some kind of super devoted mom. She moved into a ghetto and presents it to us and others as if she somehow bought her own mansion. She's renting it from her dad who had been wanting to sell it, but she doesn't admit she's renting from her dad.
She also has days where she won't even look in my direction when she talks. She also is very brief and distant from the kids.
Is this real? No doubt whatsoever. I cannot imagine gracious, loving, caring, compassionate women becoming rabid demon-ows from Hell and still be in their right mind. Were there triggers present? Definitely. Unresolved childhood issues? Definitely.
My worry is that if there are different problems that cause all these same symptoms, then the successes that we hear of may be limited to one or two certain types. There may be instances that are unresolvable and that the person will never go back to their old life and we have no way of knowing that until time plays out. We need a way early on to tell what type of MLC a person has. If for no other reason, it would give us a great deal of information that we could take into account in our decisions to stand or not to stand.
If I knew that my W was gone for good, and that I would be raising the kids from here on out on my own I would definitely not stand and would move on in the hopes that I would be in a loving relationship and that I might find someone to be a mother to my kids.
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Hi Thundarr,
I'm sorry you have to go through this. I know how painful this all is, for you and the children.
My provocative title of whether MLC is real is not to doubt for one second that our spouses are going through something deeply shocking and life changing. The question is what it is precisely they are going through.
After all my reading, I don't think MLC is one single disease with a similar set of symptoms, but several things (see the list at the beginning). Among the people I have met on the forum over the past year are people, like my H, who have had severe and prolonged stress. There are some MLCers who seem somewhat psychotic. There are some with deep (childhood) traumas that they have suppressed and are now dealing with the consequences. And there are others, not easily categorised in this way, who are generally confused, or immature, and so on.
The question is, do you know what is going on with your W? What is the nature of her confusion, the cause of her behaviour? This helps us in our decisions, and gives us courage to stand.
Hugs, Mermaid
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Hey Mermaid,
I know that she's been making statements of feeling like she's getting old and running out of time for almost two years.
I know that her mother no longer recognizes her due to Alzheimers and that she hasn't dealt with it. She's also has to grocery shop for them and check on them almost daily.
I know that she lost alot of weight, grew her hair out and lightened it, got back into '80s music, started hanging out with a completely new group of friends and doing things she never had (yard sales, flea markets etc).
I know she impulsively traded off our family mini-van for a compact that she did no research on and paid way too much for, while getting robbed on the van trade-in. She picked that car, she says, because several other women she works with drive Toyotas.
I know she contacted her X from high school last August but blocked him later and has now added him on FB once again.
I know she was calling a married lawyer friend excessively earlier in the year, and now hangs out with him and his W almost every weekend.
I know she has abandoned me and the kids and only sees them occasionally, and prioritizes her time with her new friends over time with her.
I know our S6 has spent only 1 night with her in 7 weeks and our D10 only 3.
I know that I'm not the only one who notices that she's radically changed, as both of our families and even casual friends think she's very different now. And not in a positive way. She says people at work tell her she's changed but she refuses to elaborate.
I know she's expressed no concern for my pain whatsoever and has even mocked me for hurting or fearing for losing the house.
I know she says the kids will be fine and better off, even though they've never been in a dysfunctional environment. She reasons that kids go through divorces all the time just fine and that this will make her a better person and a better mother.
I don't know what's going on with her. I don't know her or if I will ever see her again. I know I may never trust her or anyone else again as I fear I will have this constant fear that they will turn against me suddenly for no discernible reason.
Thanks for reading this, and let me know if you have any idea what is going on with her.
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Hi Thundarr,
I'm no expert, just another LBS trying to make sense of this confusion. My H is one of the few people who has managed to express what he is going through, and this gives me some advantage in understanding all this. Not everyone gets the chance to listen to their MLCer, but if you can, do. Listen, don't judge, just validate, and don't take it personally.
In your W's case, from what you say, it doesn't sound like it was triggered by stress, she doesn't seem psychotic, but perhaps her mother's Alzheimers has made her fear for what she hasn't achieved. Instead of facing her loss, she's turning backwards and regressing. It sounds like she's trying to escape her reality and live/ re-live her youth (like so many MLCers).
In Jungian psychology, ML is a time of transition, of embracing the shadow self (the repressed/ unacknowledged side of one's psyche). But this isn't conscious, and in crisis there's just a feeling of a life that they haven't lived, and being trapped in the life they've made. I feel that my H has built up a strong disassociation with his right hemisphere, and has forgotten how to be happy. His left hemisphere, critical, controlling and analytical, may have been damaged through stress burnout.
In the case of your wife, I don't know what could have led her to the point of crisis rather than transition. Did she grow up too quickly? Did she miss out on part of her adolescent development? Or were her home and family routines overwhelming?
It doesn't hurt to send some truth spears about the effect of her behaviour on your children (but keep them light and sharp).
I don't know her or if I will ever see her again. I know I may never trust her or anyone else again as I fear I will have this constant fear that they will turn against me suddenly for no discernible reason.
I know how painful this is. You have a long journey ahead. I have the feeling that we were as trusting as children with our spouses, and never expected this behaviour. Slowly, we have to regain a sense of ourselves as whole, wonderful people in our own right. We're not half of a couple. We have to take responsibility for our lives, for our pain, for our future. WE have to lovingly detach ourselves from what our spouse is doing. It helps to understand, but we're not responsible for them, only for ourselves, and our own feelings.
Eventually, if and when your wife sees this new you, it will change how she sees you. Then, you will be strong enough to decide what and who you want in your future.
Take care, Mermaid.
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Interesting questions, and I'll do my best to answer.
She grew up in a home where she was very close to her mom but no relationship with dad. Her parents slept in separate rooms her whole life, and her dad was very controlling and didn't let her mom pick out anything for the house or even the cars she drove. He would literally go buy her a new car and bring it home to her sight unseen. He was physically abusive, but the only time she told me about was once he whipped her with a belt while drunk.
She moved out to go to college at 19, but never ended up enrolling. Instead, she lived with one of her friends and a male roommate, Three's Company style. One night she had been drinking and one of her male roommate's friends took advantage of her. When her religious roommate and her other religious friends found out, they put her down and disowned her as a friend because in their eyes she had sinned unforgivably. She moved back home and then we met 9 months later.
Incidentally, the college she was living at is the one I recently graduated from 3 days before BD. When we went there for my comp exams two months before BD, she took a walk down memory lane and showed me the house she lived in and talked about what happened for the first time in years. She said she was over it, but had alot of regrets about never enrolling in school and not making anything of herself. The fact that there were old yearbooks laying around the school while she was waiting for me wasn't good as she looked up the senior pictures of several of her friends from 20 years ago and seemed really down on herself. I tried to build her up but she wasn't hearing it.
So her MLC must be about her feelings of failure, especially after seeing me finally succeed. I don't know what it will take for her to resolve this, and pray it won't take the 10+ years to get her masters as well. I don't know how long or if I really want to hold on at this point. Thanks for your observations on this and for this thread in general.
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Hi Thundarr, it sounds like you are gaining insight into her sitch. Yes, there seems to be a lot of things she hasn't faced, can't accept, and hasn't dealt with. You might well be right about her feelings of failure (and rejection) being triggered by your success. There are probably issues about control of her life, too. Does this help you deal with it all?
The main point is about you. You seem so hurt, and you need to look after yourself, get strong, know who you are on your own. You have your own journey to travel, like all of us, although at first it doesn't seem like that.
As you say, so rightly, one day at a time.
Take care, Mermaid
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I'm not sure at this point how it helps me deal with this. I know this happened at the worst possible time in my life as I was more worn down and weaker than I've been in years after putting forth so much time, energy and money toward school.
I know that I've asked myself many times if I had decided not to finish grad school and continued on as I was whether this would be happening or not. I've heard several (including HB) say that it would have happened anyway, but if it was triggered by my graduating somehow then that makes me wish I had never finished.
Also, other than seeing her tired/ down sometimes I don't really see the depression. I'm trained to look for those things, and if she's able to hide it that well not only from a trained therapist but her husband at that it must be incredibly deep down. I'm just not picking up the signs most of the time.
Where does all this leave me with MLC. I don't know. I know it must take an incredibly powerful force to get a woman to leave her home, her husband and her family behind and move 3 towns away. If there is an OM he must be out of town alot or something as I sometimes see her every night. And I don't think any OM would be enough for a woman who's been a great mother for 18 years to up and leave her kids. And, even though I'm not perfect I know I'm not bad enough for her to have done what she did. It just blows my mind what has happened.
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Thundarr, it's not to do with you, it's to do with her.
My H's MLC also came at the most difficult point in my life, while I was finishing my PhD, and working full time too. H The events in my life helped trigger his reactions (he's a perfectionist who thought I could have done more, better, more quickly), but it wasn't my fault either. Now H recognises that.
There seems to be no logical explanation for what they do, and logic doesn't bring them back. Personally, it helps me to understand, but we still need to accept and adapt to the changes.
I hope that your W also recognises later that it was her problem, not yours, that led to her actions. But first you need to realise that it was not your fault, and it probably would have happened sooner or later no matter what you did.
Yes, it's mind blowing that this can happen. But it has. It takes time to come to terms with it. Apart from children and work, are you doing other things to feel that you are alive and whole?
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I'm spending alot of time with the kids for one, and seeing them happy makes me realize that I'm much better off than my W is because as much of an act as she puts on she's ultimately missing out on them. I'm also trying to get in a little time with my hobbies, but that's been really hard for me to do as my W and I shared almost all of them in some ways. And there's not really anything I never got to do that I would have wanted to since she wasn't very restrictive about my comings and goings.
Btw, what is your Ph.D in?
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Hi Thundarr:
Like you I went back to school and finished my undergrad degree and then enrolled in grad school. All the while I was in school H supported and encouraged, took over household duties, etc. I was working full time and going to school full time to make a better life for our family. Graduated last January and then shortly thereafter bomb drop. H had 2 semesters left to graduate college, but never did. I believe that my graduating college and a few other factors initiated full blown MLC.
For a long time I thought it was my fault and did the shoulda coulda talk. If I didn't go back to school and paid more attention to him, etc. then this would not have happened. Eight months of therapy later I know now that it has nothing to do with me going back to school, however, it did bring up childhood issues that his parents did not guide him from the age of 16 years on and that he never finished school. These are his issues and he will have to resolve them.
I have a live-in low energy MLC'er and he does sometimes talk to me about his feelings. It is painful to witness and live with him on a daily basis, but I truly believe that he is slowly but surely getting to the point of seeing that his depression (that's what he calls it) is not just about our relationship and has other causes. He still focuses on us (by the way we had a great relationship similar to yours prior).
One day at a time, care for your children (you are doing great) and know that you will have good days and bad days, they happen to us all.
Just know that our spouse's MLC is all about their issues and their failures (or perceived failures).
GAL and build up yourself, it helps (but it hard to do). Do one thing for yourself no matter how small every day. I try to journal three great things that happened to me each and every day no matter if it is seeing a beautiful butterfly or something bigger.
Keep posting, this forum is a great support.
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I have a live-in low energy MLC'er and he does sometimes talk to me about his feelings. It is painful to witness and live with him on a daily basis, but I truly believe that he is slowly but surely getting to the point of seeing that his depression (that's what he calls it) is not just about our relationship and has other causes. He still focuses on us (by the way we had a great relationship similar to yours prior).
Sounds like me, Sassyone. Except now it's been 32 months since BD. He talks a lot about what he's going through, but he's not generally a talker. It's hard having them gone (mine moved out several times because he needed space), but it's wearing having them home too. After nearly 3 years, there are some changes, but still a lot of uncertainties. However, my way of reacting to it all has changed.
I'm spending alot of time with the kids for one, and seeing them happy makes me realize that I'm much better off than my W is because as much of an act as she puts on she's ultimately missing out on them. I'm also trying to get in a little time with my hobbies, but that's been really hard for me to do as my W and I shared almost all of them in some ways. And there's not really anything I never got to do that I would have wanted to since she wasn't very restrictive about my comings and goings.
I know it's hard doing the same things on your own that you previously did together. I had the same situation. If you can, suggest that your W stays with the kids every other weekend, which will be good for them, and give you the chance to go off on your own. (She may also realise what life is like with responsibilities and without someone to share them). Just a thought.
Btw, what is your Ph.D in?
Education (perspectives on the value of university education).
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Mermaid-
How are you? Old Pilot suggested I read this thread, as I was wondering whether my wife actually has MLC or not. I've also corresponded with Thundarr from another forum.
The reason I ask this question is because my wife is not like the other MLC'ers who go out and party, try to relive their youth, move out or abandon their kids.
I'll give you a brief summary, and hopefully you will recognize some of the symptoms...
We met in college, we were both 20 years old. Her mother was very overbearing, and prohibited us to go out... I'm not sure why, but the excuse was that she needed to finish school and concentrate on her school work first. We didnt listen to them - but we sneaked around behind their backs. We would schedule our classes so that there would be big breaks in between so that we can hang out with each other. We were so in love, and it was so exciting... the 'forbidden love' makes it even more exciting.
Needless to say, her parents were very strict, and she never got the opportunity to go out like most college kids did. She was not very social, but I loved her.
We dated for 8 years, and got married. Her parents accepted me, but at the last minute they decided not to come to our wedding. It was a big blow for her. Nevertheless, she was happy... she was out of her parents house and we rented an apartment together... we were living our own life....
3 years later we had our first child, and 2 years after that our second. We were back to speaking with her parents, and we asked he mother to come and stay with us to help my wife out while I went to work. Her mother said yes, but then refused to come saying she wouldnt know what to do... Again - disappointed at her mother.
She decided to stay home while I went to work... she had wanted to be a stay at home mother... and I supported her.
For the next 6 to 7 years, I thought I had the best marriage and the best family life any man can ask for.
This past fall, I began noticing that she became distant with me... I chalked it up to me not spending enough time with her. During the financial crisis, I was very stressed, and spent a lot of time at work, and when I got home, I veged out, and did not help out as much as I should have... I also had a pretty sure temper from the stress.
Right after Christmas, she started to withhold physically from me, and I asked her what the problem was... She wouldnt tell me, but I insisted, and she told me that she was interested in another man, and she had no feelings for me....
I was shocked as you can imagine. We tried to make it work, because she had said she was not sure why she felt the way she did... She said she didnt have sex with this man, and told me she would no longer see him. I called him to be sure.
We went on a couple of dates, but she was still very distant and wouldnt let me touch her. It was 3 months, and I became impatient. I said I really dont want to be with a wife that doesnt want to be with me. I asked if she decided what she wanted to do... she said yes, I no longer want to be with you...
I moved out of the house for a week, but came back to the house. I told her that we had 2 kids very young who depend on us, we should really try to make this work.
She did not say she was going to try, she just told me to leave her alone. Which I did. After a month, I was tired and impatient, I asked what she wanted. I said we havent spoken in a month - what do you want to do?
She said she doesnt love me, and that you can force love, and that she wanted a divorce.
I told her to hold off, that I will give her space by moving out for a couple of months. After two weeks she told me to get a lawyer because she got hers.
I just got served the divorce papers about 3 weeks ago. I told her I would move back in the house because I left the house to give her space, not so that she can divorce me... Lots of drama in between that I will spare the details, but we are living in the same house, but different rooms.... She is nasty and angry towards me.... She cares for the kids, although she is more angry now towards them, and no where near as attentive.
Nevertheless, she seems depressed, but not always, she is always locked up in her room... she doesnt speak to me, and she doesnt really go out... She's blaming me for everthing under the sun, and always hateful and angry.
Some symptoms sound like MLC, others not so much.
Like thundarr, I'd like to stand and wait for her to come out of the fog if it is MLC. If its not, perhaps it's just that she fell out of love.... due to the laundry list of items that are my flaws, temper, controlling, chauvinistic, unappreciative, didnt help out enough, too fat....
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Sorry to hijack... but Thundarr.... your wife has FOO issues that she hasn't told you about.... that's what I'm "getting" and I'm not psychic, LOL!! I suspect the parents sleeping in separate bedrooms is just the tip of the iceberg for her..... my two cents worth.
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TB - You really don't seem like the type that has any of these flaws to an extreme enough level for her to be doing what she's doing, so stop sweating it. It's her, not you.
Letting,
I agree with you 100%. Her family is divided into 2 groups of 3 kids each due to the age differences. The 3 older ones all had alcohol and drug problems, and the two oldest have recovered and one is in AA for life. The other brother died at 40 (wait!! Hadn't thought about that significance...) from lung cancer after years of drug and alcohol use.
Her next oldest sister also died but from natural causes. She was 36 and we were with her when she died. I know my W grieved over that as I grieved with her. Her sister had been married to an abusive husband, and had divorced and remarried him within months before she died. He took her life insurance money, house and new van and left her kids (his step-kids) destitute. A total piece of crap person.
I know my W was fondled by her grandfather when she was younger, but suspect there may have been something else she never told me about with so much alcoholism in the house. She was date raped when she was 19, and that was alot of what she faced when we went to the campus I graduated from and even went to the house with me and took pictures. She seemed to have really accepted what happened and not blame herself finally. She was drunk when it happened and had felt like it was partially her fault even though I always told her it wasn't.
That may shed a little more light, and also makes me wish a million times over that I could take away whatever pain she has. I've seen the tender person inside and she doesn't deserve to have any of this happening to her, if it really is MLC/ depression.
Thanks again for all your input and TB and I look forward to your responses.
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I read a book about a neuroscientist who had a stroke on the LHS of her brain, leaving her with only the emotional, spiritual RHS, and no language or internal narratives ("My Stroke of Insight").
It's not like our MLCers have had a stroke, but in some ways, there LHS and RHS may have become disassociated, one side (left) being more dominant, leaving them with a sense of an unfulfilled self. This has parallels with Jungian psychology and the shadow self. When I told H the story, he recognised the relevance of this. The RHS is almost like an inner child, free, playful, emotional, with the potential for great happiness.
I followed up my hunch that MLC / stress may be connected to LHS brain regions, and I found signs that there are neurological changes in midlife, which mirror those described by Jung, and that severe stress (burnout) leads to left hemisphere disfunction;
Thanks for the very interesting info Mermaid, have just found this thread.
Is that Jill Bolte Taylor? There's a great video of her TED talk about her stroke that I just love.
http://www.ted.com/talks/jill_bolte_taylor_s_powerful_stroke_of_insight.html
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Hey Mermaid,
Didn't know if you still checked this thread or not but it seems too interesting to get buried.
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Hi Thundarr,
I could see some similarities in our cases. Your wife contacted her high school boyfriend too. And your wife and mine were both, sadly, abused as children.
Before I came to this site I was on another where there were several men whose wives had suddenly left. In nearly all of those cases, there was a history of ( sexual ) abuse in their wive's childhoods, late teens, or early twenties.
There were also some women that were suffering from MLC that had experienced abuse and who tried hard to explain that the abuse they experienced had definitely contributed to their behaviours in midlife.
When I read your case, it affirmed to me that it can't be coincidental that we see such similar patterns of breakdown of our marriages at this stage.
I've read articles and books about the effects of sexual abuse on children, in the hope of better understanding. It isn't possible for us to really feel how damaged they must feel, to understand what was taken from them. And while the books do explain it, I understand that those wounds go deeper than we can imagine - I think especially if a parent or sibling is involved. It is a weight they carry for a long time.
I've read that sexual abuse in childhood can be like a 'timebomb' and that intimacy with a spouse is a common place for it to blow. I've read that it is not uncommon for wives to see their husband as a 'surrogate abuser'. The anger needs to come out somewhere.
It very definitely plays a part in this story of MLC.
bnw
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Sorry, Thundarr, I've been away from the forum. There was a time that I spent hours on here, but now I need to spend hours living my life, without forgetting all the dear friends here too. I do check up from time to time, but I always reply to my PMs.
Hobo, I read your message a couple of days ago, and I've been letting it percolate in my brain. It's hard to tell, but she seems far too angry with you, blaming you for everything, for this just to be a case of WAS. I would guess that she has got some issues from her past to deal with, and has built up a view of you as the cause of all her bad feelings (see FTT's thread, on the latest book she's read). This is why she needs space; if she can continue to blame you, then she doesn't look inward. I don't know how you will manage this without losing your rights to your house and living with your kids.
In my point of view, as I've said here before, MLC is a complex thing, with many causes, symptoms and outcomes. Some of the symtoms that we see here are fairly common; projection of the problem on another person, a sense of disassociation with their own feelings, alienation from their life and from those closest to them, the need to escape, have space.
None of us know what the outcome will be. We all need to deal with our pain, loneliness, and changing life before we start to look inward at ourselves, to know ourselves and see ourselves as whole (not needing another for completeness). We all need to let go, because we don't control the other person, only ourselves. We need to let the old marriage die. Then, if we get the chance to re-start, we decide if that is what we want.
So in a way, it doesn't matter if it's MLC or not, the action is the same. If not, why not? Standing is not about hanging on, hoping against hope. It's about facing our situation, accepting what we can't change and changing what we can, and forgiving, which leads to healing.
Yes, kikki, Jill Bolte Taylor, Thanks for the link!
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Thanks Mermaid, yes, she is still very angry with me, and hates me.
It was only a few months ago where she said she just had no feelings for me, but did not hate me....
Now she hates me and wants a divorce, and has actually filed.
She doesnt look at me in the eyes, and she doesnt want me to look at her face. When I look at her face for more than a second, she runs and literally tries to hide from me. Runs into another room or up the stairs to her (our master bedroom) and locks the door.
I dont know what to do, I do want to save this marriage if I can.
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Hobo,
Please read the following article:
http://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/mlc_understanding-infidelity_love-and-hate.html
Believe none of what she says.
In Replay and Monster mode.....believe nothing. Don't engage with her...take the bait, etc.
She is really angry at herself, but ready to face her Shadow - so she projects her anger toward you.
You cannot "save" the marriage. You can only focus on and save yourself. Your wife needs to deal with her issues by herself. You cannot help her. By detaching and helping yourself......that is the only assistance you can do.
Hugs,
Limitless
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thanks Limitless....
I've been at this for 9 months, and still find it so hard to detach. She's pushing on with the divorce, and destroying the family...
My kids are so young... 7 and 9 - I feel so bad for them. I cant even talk about what the plans are for when we are divorced.
She says we should just talk to the attorneys.. She really is so naive. Attorneys don t tell you how you are going to live, and what bills not to pay.
In a way, I cant wait til reality hits her... She is just waiting, and accepting that things will be different but not planning on who to deal with the issues.... i guess that's all part of the process.
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I've said before, and I continue to think that midlife crisis does not exist, in that it is not a single identifiable disorder, with predictable causes and outcomes. There is no consistent and reliable scientific evidence that it does.
There is evidence that psychological stages don't exist as much as we would like to believe; there are tendencies rather than definitive patterns of behaviour, psychological reorganisations rather than steps. It doesn't always help to say "what stage is my H at? Where is he in his tunnel?" because there is no tunnel, and stages can occur simultaneously or be skipped. The expressions we use here to describe it "replay", "in the tunnel" etc are metaphors that help us deal with our own crisis that arises from the disruption in our lives.
But what we see in our partners is a psychological crisis:
A psychological crisis is a non-illness response to severe stress.
These responses can be maladaptive, and can lead to a number of psychological defence mechanisms (such as denial, rationalization, splitting, narcissism, acting out, devaluation, displacement, dissociation, fantasy, and repression) in order to cope with reality and maintain self image. (see: http://samvak.tripod.com/personalitydisorders21.html (http://samvak.tripod.com/personalitydisorders21.html), and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defence_mechanism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defence_mechanism) )
The wheels of change are set in motion, with our spouse trying to solve the discomfort they feel, and reach a new equilibrium. There are some who feel they have reached this with a new partner, until issues arise that caused their original crisis, or other factors cause the spouse to feel uncomfortable with their new situation. If they return to their original spouse without adaptive responses on both sides, the crisis won't be solved.
In other words, their crisis causes our crisis; we can only work on our own adaptive responses.
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Hey Mermaid,
I find your post from today very interesting (like all of them), but would like you to flesh it out a bit more. Knowing that there is no DSM diagnosis for MLC, and the fact that there can be wide-ranging differences in those who we believe are having them, I too have questioned the existence. Two questions I do have, though are:
1. How would you explain the correlation between age and onset? Women tend to all go into it at around 35-45, men around 45-55. Would you attribute this to hormonal changes?
2. How would you explain the consistency of bizarre behaviors exhibited such as the eyes, illogical thinking, overwhelming compulsion to run away, magical thinking etc.?
3. You mention that there are not truly stages, and that stages can be skipped altogether. Can you enlighten me on some examples of this?
4. Given your statements, do you believe that time frames are dependable in that this can take a certain minimum amount of time or do you believe that this can resolve in a shorter amount of time than what is generally believed here?
5. What is the minimum amount of time that a person has gone through this that you know of, and do you believe that they truly "come of of a fog"?
Thanks!
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Crossing Paths, Laurence and Wendy Steinberg
Giving the Love that Heals, Harville Hendrix
T, Check out these books. I have a lot of thoughts on your questions, but your first question is the basis of the first book that correlates adolescence with adult crisis. Of course not all MLC kids are adolescents, but if you expand their theory that parents have a hard time adjusting when their kids reach an age of their own maladjustment, it makes sense. It is also talked about by Hendrix--that as parents we pass on our baggage. Both relevant to your current search. Lisa
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Well as long as we are suggesting books - I would throw in this book
Understanding Men's Passages by Gail Sheehy
which show that each decade there is a chance for a crisis.starting at 20 until 70
which corresponds to the hormonal decline in men.
To answer that part of the question, is that there is normally a hormonal portion to this crisis.
It is not necessarily the same hormones or time for each person.
Women can have babies, PPD, periomenopause, and menopause all contributing to largely fluctuating hormonal patterns.
I have thoughts on the other questions too but I will leave them for Mermaid or get the books and read them.
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Hey OP,
Please share your thoughts on this if you don't mind. I posed these questions here since it was a discussion thread and it's great to get other viewpoints on this.
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1. How would you explain the correlation between age and onset? Women tend to all go into it at around 35-45, men around 45-55. Would you attribute this to hormonal changes?
There are some people who attribute some of these changes hormonal changes, such as Jed Diamond, in "The Irritable Male Syndrome" http://www.menalive.com/ims-splash.htm (http://www.menalive.com/ims-splash.htm). We know that hormones affect mood and behaviour, but also that very few men actually have a sudden drop in testosterone. For most of them, it's a gradual process, and this doesn't correlate to the sudden changes in behaviour that we denote as MLC or psychological crises.
The ages you cite as being typically MLC are not widely agreed upon. Not everyone goes through a crisis at midlife. Some go through crises at other ages (my H had an earlier one at 21); in fact Erikson says there are specific types of psychological crises at different ages. Other researchers say there is no evidence for MLC at all: see http://www.apa.org/monitor/apr03/researchers.aspx (http://www.apa.org/monitor/apr03/researchers.aspx)
2. How would you explain the consistency of bizarre behaviors exhibited such as the eyes, illogical thinking, overwhelming compulsion to run away, magical thinking etc.?
Why do you think there is a consistency in these behaviours? This forum, which is not a systematic, scientific basis for study, shows partners with a wide range of behaviours. For example, my H has never shown signs of magical thinking. All of the behaviours you mention are examples of defence mechanisms; they protect the ego at times of crisis. And all of us, including LBS, are susceptible.
3. You mention that there are not truly stages, and that stages can be skipped altogether. Can you enlighten me on some examples of this?
From this website, the myth of stages of dying, death and grief http://grief.net/Myth%20of%20Stages.pdf (http://grief.net/Myth%20of%20Stages.pdf)
In other areas of psychology, stages are not inevitable, step-like and connected to maturation, but the result of psychological reorganisations as individuals mature in social contexts together with their care giver. See Schaffer's chapter in "An introduction to Vygotsky " by Harry Daniels, 2001.
As for MLC itself, Sherman ""there is as yet no evidence for developmental periods or 'stages' in the mid-life period" Edmund A. Sherman - 1987 "male mid-life crisis" - Psychology
4. Given your statements, do you believe that time frames are dependable in that this can take a certain minimum amount of time or do you believe that this can resolve in a shorter amount of time than what is generally believed here?
I don't think there is a minimum amount of time. I suppose that some people resolve their crisis quickly, so that it is not noticed much. I know one or two cases, personally. All it seemed to take was a couple of weeks retreat, and the individuals concerned realised what they wanted and what their response should be.
We are all here on the forum because of the deep crises we have in our lives, so these are longer term problems. The types of individual problems people have will also affect the outcome, as will their ability to find adaptive responses. Some people, as we know, manage to go through their whole lives without finding mature responses to the problems of life that they face.
5. What is the minimum amount of time that a person has gone through this that you know of, and do you believe that they truly "come of of a fog"?
As I said, a couple of weeks. But their crisis wasn't so deep.
Do any of us truly come out of our fogs? We are all human, all fallible, subject to our own perceptions, and there is no ultimate truth or pure perception of reality. We all have defence mechanisms to some degree. We can feel more certain of our decisions, less confused, and behave more consistently with our inner beliefs at some times than others. Is this "being out of the fog? " What if one person thought they were being rational and clear, and another thought they were delluding themselves? This happens all the time.
Lisa, I've just seen your reply, and I'll check out your book references. Thanks!
I don't think all MLC crisis corresponds to teenage behaviour (although sometimes they do seem to regress). The theory that parents have a hard time adjusting when their kids reach an age of their own maladjustment, is (as far as I can see) just a theory; there is no consistent, valid supporting evidence for this. (But please correct me if I'm wrong). Anecdotal experience doesn't count as evidence that it happens in the population in general.
Thanks OP. which show that each decade there is a chance for a crisis.starting at 20 until 70
This also shows that hormones are not enough on their own. There are other factors too! But of course hormones affect us, and not just the main sex hormones, such as oestrogen, progesterone and testosterone. We are regular chemical banks of hormones, fuelled by the environment and food, which affect every aspect of our behaviour and thinking.
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Very concise and detailed answers, Mermaid. So, given those, might I assume that you discount the Conways' research and theories on this? And, if so, what do you think their motives and intentions were with focusing on MLC so much in their literature and practice?
As a therapist, it has been incredibly difficult for me to label my W's behviors and actions when no extensive scientific research has been done that would corroborate the findings of the few who have written about MLC. I know my W is going through something, and everyone around me sees it especially the kids. Her personality change is drastic to say the least, and it is ironic that she fits so well with the W's of the other guys I talk to regulary on Lifetwo. In fact, we often get it confused whose W we're talking about as they seem to show the exact same symptoms.
This theory of it being specific psychological crises gives me some ray of hope of eventually being able to isolate the catalyst and minimizing its effect on the situation. I would like to be able to help her in some way indirectly, but realize that any attempt to engage or intervene direclty would be seen as controlling and push her deeper into whatever psychological cave she has retreated into. Any suggestions in that area?
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1. How would you explain the correlation between age and onset? Women tend to all go into it at around 35-45, men around 45-55. Would you attribute this to hormonal changes?
2. How would you explain the consistency of bizarre behaviors exhibited such as the eyes, illogical thinking, overwhelming compulsion to run away, magical thinking etc.?
3. You mention that there are not truly stages, and that stages can be skipped altogether. Can you enlighten me on some examples of this?
4. Given your statements, do you believe that time frames are dependable in that this can take a certain minimum amount of time or do you believe that this can resolve in a shorter amount of time than what is generally believed here?
5. What is the minimum amount of time that a person has gone through this that you know of, and do you believe that they truly "come of of a fog"?
1) See my previous post for this answer
2) Since so many of these crisis revolve around depression, hormones, and mental illness like condtions,
well I ask you have you ever seen a mentally ill person NOT act this way, while in the depths of crisis?
Now my knowledge is somewhat limited, because I am not involved day to day with mentally ill people as part of my job.
But I do have 45 years of dealing with a bi-polar mother to fall back on. And I can tell you that #2 describes that perfectly.
3) I disagree here with Mermaid, but only from my own experience having witnessed all the stages with my wife through withdrawal. So again maybe I do not have yet enough experience to see other sichs.
Also as far as the stages, are we talking about Heart Blessing/Conwat stages or RCR/Erichson as these are different and yet close to being the same?
I think that stages that appear to be skipped, or returned to, might be just erroneous information that is being given to the LBS. I mean if my wife has an other person that I am unaware of, then every thing I have seen so far could be thrown away. It would mean she is still in replay, and I agree she is still in Escape and Avoid. But whether she skipped stages or regressed to a previous stage I am not yet convinced of that.
I will only truly know when the entire process finishs and then I can go back and relook at what has happened.
4)Time is not a factor in this. - Only a gift - and it takes as long as it takes.
5) From the people that I have spoken to or read it appears that they do emerge from the fog.
How long - see #4.
However I can tell you that my wife went through PPD for about 4-5 months and then emerged completely normal.
Or she just went into remission until menopause came around.
Will I really ever know.
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So, given OP's last answer I think we can draw a theoretical baseline here.
OP, can you compare and contrast your observation of your W's behaviors, attitudes and actions during PPD with what you have seen while she was in MLC?
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Thats a good question Thundarr.....since I went through PPD....I see alot of the same behaviours in my honey that I went through...
but...I would love to hear what OP has to say on that?? :D
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OP Thanks for that. You got me thinking about that Tootsie Roll commercial. The one where the owl says "How many licks til you get to the center of a Tootsie Roll Pop? The World may never know!" ::)
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I will try however it was 23 years ago and it was a much shorter time frame.
I remember we were getting divorced, I was NO GOOD, life was horrible.
I remember just detaching for a while and NO action was ever taken on the divorce.
But I am sure that I made changes that may have eventually led to what is happening now.
Started closing my business earlier, tried to spend more time with my kids.
Appeasing my wife for what she wanted and her needs.
When it was over, everything more or less went back to normal.
My wife started taking B-6 to help with her hormones.
She had an awareness of what happened.
But it was not something we spent that much time talking about.
Life was then VERY good.
That is all I can remember right now.
Maybe something else will trigger more memories.
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Mermaid, I was not saying that it is always related to adolescence, only that there are theories that it is not self-age related, but related to external factors. I just wanted to throw those books out as alternative theories--just to broaden his perspective in this searching phase. Having read everything I could in my searching phase, I came out believing in a phenomenon that we can call MLC, but I don't think the cause is the same for everyone, or that everyone experiences it the same way.
I believe people have psychological breakdowns related to all different kinds of causes--just like we can have physical ones, and they can be as severe as a complete mental breakdown--like a fatal cardiac episode, severe like MLC, or a ruptured disc--or mild like a MLT or a torn ACL. Some people will have severe issues, and are probably destined, some people have a predisposition but overcome it, and some people have no obvious reasons.
BUT, I do think that there are so many common psychological indicators in MLCers that you can see predictive factors, certain FOO issues, narcissistic tendencies, intimacy avoidance... But I don't believe there is any real evidence of a "process" or that everyone gets through the tunnel or fog. But that's just me. I know too many men who have been stuck in MLC lala land for a LONG time to believe they are processing anything in any timeframe--they will die of an STD or a DUI accident before they defog... But anyway, I just wanted to throw some alternate perspectives out there... Lisa
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This is a very interesting thread. Mermaid, what you say about your H rings so true to me in many ways. My H's MLC appears to be a perfect storm of major FOO issues, a lifelong struggle with depression, intimacy issues and workaholic/burnout syndrome. A couple years ago, we were both researching health issues like adrenal fatigue and vitamin B and D deficiencies (physiological changes that can be caused by burnout) as possible contributing factors as well.
My H does seem very self aware in many ways. He is a low energy MLCer. He went straight from anger into an 18 month overt depression stage, and acknowledged that he was depressed, and that he had a long history of dealing with it. He has a high level high stress job, but has also been dealing with the current economic market and lack of job security/enjoyment for the last several years.
He has not been wise with money, and although he made a lot in his past, he blew through it all, and now is very aware of being 50 years old, with no savings and no retirement funds.
When I look at Maslow's hierarchy of needs, it is apparent that until he meets this level of needed safety and security, he will in no way be able to address those levels higher up on the pyramid. For those of you who don't know what I'm referring to, here is a link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Maslow%27s_Hierarchy_of_Needs.svg
The theory of MLC being triggered by the wife's aging does not fit in my situation, as I am 13 years younger than H. If anything, it helps validate that "it's not me."
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Jeez, talk about perfectionistic tendencies... I always seem to find a typo right after I post and then have to go back and edit lol.
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My thought on OP's observations are in line with the possibility that perimenopause may have quite a bit to do with what is happening with my W. In talking to my D18 earlier today, it is clear that my W has an almost psychotic detest of me and everything that reminds her of me. This is far more than a traditional breakup as she wants nothing that even remotely reminds her of me in her environment, including the kids. D18 said she told her that video games were banned in her home as they were something that I'm into. She even gave me back the HDTV that she had bought and I didn't know why at the time, but figure it was because it was also a reminder. She did purchase a new one that's my favorite brand, coincidentally.
This complete fixation on deleting everything about me from her life makes me convinced that there HAS to be a biological component to this. D18 told me that I have done absolutely nothing to warrant this kind of reaction from W, and even if there had been domestic violence or infidelity on my part then what she's doing would be above and beyond reasonable. She seems to show no remorse or guilt or sign that she's second-guessing her decisions. She just wants to eliminate me and everything about me. Delete my very existence, including changing her name back to her maiden name.
OP, is this more extreme than what your wife was or is in your memory? I've dealt with psychotic clients and this really is like extreme OCD but focused on a particular person. It really is to the point of being clinically diagnosable. How can she delete all of our good memories? As recently as April we were like lovebirds.
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Well I do not believe you can compare my wife to yours, they are not exactly the same.
My wife does want me out of her life, she believes her life will be better when I am gone.
But she has not told me that.
Our wives are also at different ages and different parts of the crisis. IMHO.
There is no question that there is a biological component to MLC or LC=Life Crisis.
But I would say it is one part.
The childhood issues, the depression, the triggers are all other parts.
I was told by my IC/MC that those women that go through PPD have an excellent chance of having another
depression later in life.
For my wife this makes the third time.
She also was going to commit suicide in her teenage years.
IMHO this also corresponds to her entering the hormonal phase of her life.
SO for my wife severe depression has accompanied some of her major transitions in life.
I will add in that during my marriage their would be times in the last 10 years that I was getting divorced for periods of 10 days at a time.
I always atrributed this to PMS as it would then go away and everything would be fine.
It also seemed to revolve sometimes around her parents visiting our home.
When they left again everything would be fine.
So now was this just the earlier stages of MLC? Maybe.
I failed to act upon any of this and TBH I do not think I could have done anything to prevent this or change it.
OP, is this more extreme than what your wife was or is in your memory? I've dealt with psychotic clients and this really is like extreme OCD but focused on a particular person. It really is to the point of being clinically diagnosable. How can she delete all of our good memories?
She is associating you with PAIN.
So how does she get rid of the PAIN? simple eliminate YOU.
That is why you need to detach and leave her alone.
She needs to realize that she will be in PAIN whether you are there or not.
My wife has lost 4 jobs. Was I the cause of her losing these jobs?
I was not there, we were not even talking.
I guess this last one you could blame on getting divorced.
Of course is that my fault?
She filed and is attacking me.
Thundarr do you see a trend yet?
I do you tell me.
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That is why you need to detach and leave her alone.
She needs to realize that she will be in PAIN whether you are there or not.
OP, I totally agree! Easier said than done I know.
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Just one thought, and I do get that I may get bashed for this....
If you don't believe that MLC is a process, linear or otherwise, can that hinder the acceptance that is necessary to get through this?
I myself went through what I"d call an "early-life" crisis, triggered by very stressful family events; in many ways it followed the path that an MLCer takes -- I ran away, all sorts of things. Major difference was that I didn't abandon a husband and children, but I did forcefully throw away my parents and community, etc., I'll write about it more sometime. And it was a process, and I remember when I woke up. I had made a huge mess, which I then proceeded to clean up. And I had to go all the way through.
But I was young then, and youth is forgiven so much more.
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Just one thought, and I do get that I may get bashed for this....
If you don't believe that MLC is a process, linear or otherwise, can that hinder the acceptance that is necessary to get through this?
I myself went through what I"d call an "early-life" crisis, triggered by very stressful family events; in many ways it followed the path that an MLCer takes -- I ran away, all sorts of things. Major difference was that I didn't abandon a husband and children, but I did forcefully throw away my parents and community, etc., I'll write about it more sometime. And it was a process, and I remember when I woke up. I had made a huge mess, which I then proceeded to clean up. And I had to go all the way through.
But I was young then, and youth is forgiven so much more.
No bashing from me.
I have to say that is possible, that it could hinder you if you don't do what you are suppose to do.
Detach and play the role of the LBS.
I also will say that I DO believe in MLC, and if you want to call it a Life Crisis, I am fine with that too.
But to say that none of this exists... NOPE, I won't accept that.
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Just one thought, and I do get that I may get bashed for this....
If you don't believe that MLC is a process, linear or otherwise, can that hinder the acceptance that is necessary to get through this?
I absolutely think that my non-acceptance of the process theory is what keeps me from standing, not from gettng through, but getting through with my marriage intact, spiritual or otherwise. If I could bring myself to believe that it is a "thing" and he will get through it, I could stand, but for me there is too much uncetainty to put any part of my life on hold waiting for him to get through. Also, because it is not a set "thing" there is no way for me to know if he has "it" or if he is just a jerk...
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I absolutely think that my non-acceptance of the process theory is what keeps me from standing, not from gettng through, but getting through with my marriage intact, spiritual or otherwise. If I could bring myself to believe that it is a "thing" and he will get through it, I could stand, but for me there is too much uncetainty to put any part of my life on hold waiting for him to get through. Also, because it is not a set "thing" there is no way for me to know if he has "it" or if he is just a jerk...
So what research makes you believe this. Or is it just easier to give up?
Have you read any of what RCR say?
You must then disagree with her?
LL understand that I am not trying to start an argument, more just trying to say that I DO believe in this.
I do believe in what RCR has written.
I HAVE done my own research to confirm it, and it may not be the easiest way out.
But it is what I choose to do.
And putting your life on HOLD? - NOPE that is not what standing is all about.
It is about moving forward and living your life to the fullest!
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Here! Here !OP Well said :) :) :)
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I did not want to turn this into another debate about my lack of a stand, I just wanted to say that I think that if you don't accept the process, I think it makes it impossible to stand--because without a belief in an "end" there is no way to wait.
I have a great deal of respect for RCR and everything she has written. I agree with her portrayal of a process that "some" people go through. And I think that there are people on here who can see, with clarity that their S fits that mold. I don't feel that certain. In retrospect, my H had too many narc tendencies, and comes from a narc family, so it is not unrealistic to be to believe that what I sometimes think is MLC is his new normal--that he went through an MLT over the last several years when things were tough and he has already arrived at his new self.
And RCRs definition of standing does not include dating or a search for a new partner--so standing does require putting that part of your life on hold. I want a partner in my life, I don't think I'll ever get married again, but I like the company of an intimate partner, and I am not willing to put that part of my life on hold to wait for him. Standing means keeping your vows even if your spouse doesn't. Standing means you move on in every way BUT one, and for some people, that ONE is significant--RCR even raised it in her last blog post, so I know she sees it also.
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Other researchers say there is no evidence for MLC at all: see http://www.apa.org/monitor/apr03/researchers.aspx (http://www.apa.org/monitor/apr03/researchers.aspx)
Thanks for the interesting information. I am always puzzled by this.
If you look at the research, evidence for a midlife crisis is just not there," says Margaret H. Huyck, PhD, a professor at the Illinois Institute of Technology's Institute of Psychology in Chicago. "Some men are vulnerable, but not all of them. You have to understand the specific conditions that make particular men vulnerable." (This is from the link above).
Isn't this a bit of an oxymoron?
Isn't this like saying the evidence for dyslexia is just not there. Some people are vulnerable, but not all of them?
I would LOVE for there to be an enormous amount of scientific documentation about MLC out there, but as there isn't at this time, I don't think it makes what our H/W's, us and our families, are experiencing, any less real.
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Lisa, I believe in the end and the process. However I do not believe that the timing for LBS and MCLer are always the same. So, standing can be a very good thing to help and heal the LBS but that does not mean the MLCer will be ready at the same time.
RCR idea of standing does not include dating or a search for a new partner but several of us here have dated, myself included. And do want another partner and to remarry. But it is also true that, until very recently, I was not ready for a new full long term relashionship. Now I am. And, of course, my husband is nowhere near at the end of his MLC. After 5 years since he left he is still in replay. Our timings do not match.
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I'm glad this has stirred up so much interest.
Having read everything I could in my searching phase, I came out believing in a phenomenon that we can call MLC, but I don't think the cause is the same for everyone, or that everyone experiences it the same way.
So it's not a phenomenon, but phenomena?
I do think that there are so many common psychological indicators in MLCers that you can see predictive factors, certain FOO issues, narcissistic tendencies, intimacy avoidance...
I have no doubt that maladative behaviours can lead to crises, when these no longer work. But these seem to be different problems, with different types of crisis, even though we can see similarities with some.
But I don't believe there is any real evidence of a "process" or that everyone gets through the tunnel or fog. But that's just me. I know too many men who have been stuck in MLC lala land for a LONG time to believe they are processing anything in any timeframe--they will die of an STD or a DUI accident before they defog... But anyway, I just wanted to throw some alternate perspectives out there... Lisa
Love alternative perspectives... I agree, the processes are tendencies.
Quote from: Trustandlove on September 23, 2011, 19:42:56
If you don't believe that MLC is a process, linear or otherwise, can that hinder the acceptance that is necessary to get through this?
Our actions have consequences, of course. We can make things worse by our behaviour and attitudes. It helps if we have insight. But I don't think MLC is a process, I think that it's an existential crisis that can evolve, and even be resolved. We can only deal with ourselves, and this is where the positive attitudes of this forum are so helpful.
Other researchers say there is no evidence for MLC at all: see http://www.apa.org/monitor/apr03/researchers.aspx (http://www.apa.org/monitor/apr03/researchers.aspx)
.If you look at the research, evidence for a midlife crisis is just not there," says Margaret H. Huyck, PhD, a professor at the Illinois Institute of Technology's Institute of Psychology in Chicago. "Some men are vulnerable, but not all of them. You have to understand the specific conditions that make particular men vulnerable." (This is from the link above).
Isn't this a bit of an oxymoron?
You're right, the way she's put it is contradictory.
The thing is, is it about age? Is it to do with midlife? Or something else?
My argument is that there is no doubt whatsoever that our spouses are in crisis. Many of them have childhood issues, (but not all); some of them have problems with aging, or their sexuality; some of them have more serious issues, and may have developed a real psychosis (not the temporary blindness to reality that many have while in defence.mode).
In the case of psychosis, or violence, I personally would not stand.
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The thing is, is it about age? Is it to do with midlife? Or something else?
My argument is that there is no doubt whatsoever that our spouses are in crisis. Many of them have childhood issues, (but not all); some of them have problems with aging, or their sexuality; some of them have more serious issues, and may have developed a real psychosis (not the temporary blindness to reality that many have while in defence.mode).
I see what you're saying now Mermaid - Yes definitely, they're all in crisis - but is it only because they're at midlife??
Maybe this gets back to the idea that many other cultures believe there are many types of crisis - spiritual, existential, healing crisis etc.
Personally I believe in MLC and I think it occurs because of all of the unique stressors that have come together at this age, and their coping mechanisms are no longer working for them. I also believe that there is a great deal that we do not understand about it all, and is unexplainable to us in the Western world in particular, and I think the healing that needs to take place would have to happen at an extremely deep level.
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Maybe this gets back to the idea that many other cultures believe there are many types of crisis - spiritual, existential, healing crisis etc.
Personally I believe in MLC and I think it occurs because of all of the unique stressors that have come together at this age, and their coping mechanisms are no longer working for them.
Yes, there are particular stressors at midlife. In the West there are different types of stressors; more than ever now, we all have to perform, to succeed, and to achieve the happiness that is promised in our consumeristic world.
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Agree - we live in an especially full on world, where nothing ever seems to be quite good enough.
A dear friend has taken me to see an acupuncturist who trained at the Shanghei University. He is Chinese. When I asked him if there is much MLC in China his words were - 'no, we have a spiritually connected view of ourselves and each other. But, it is slowly creeping in as we become more and more materialistic.'
'It is so very sad for families, so destructive'.
When I asked what he thought caused it - he said 'too much pressure'
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Great thread, and I thought I would chime in on a couple observations.
It is growing clearer and clearer to me that a great deal of the crisis my W is in has to do with her inability or unwillingness to grieve the loss of her mother to Alzheimers. She has been dependent on her mother and I think still felt like a child inside. Now that her mother is really not her mother so to speak, she has cast off everything around her in an attempt to regain the time when her mother was her mother. Her first move was to her paternal grand-parents house, where she had memories from when she was little, and she is now living in the apartment complex where we lived when we got married and when our first child was born almost 19 years ago. Coincidentally, it was around the time we had our oldest that her and her mother seemed the closest they have been in our whole relationship. Her mother was over-bearing and would come over every day to check on our daughter and she would try to take over. My W did not let her and did several things that she objected to, such as breast-feeding. She was very dependent on her mother, though, and I have to say she was a great help with our daughter and also helped us financially when things were tough.
I hypothesize that her moving to that apartment complex is no coincidence, and that she may even be acting on subliminal impulses. She admitted soon before BD that she had never cried over the fact that her mother no longer recognized her and stated that she was bottling it up. When I asked her about it two months ago, she said she was doing fine with it and was just ok with her mother's condition. I find this very hard to believe, and now she has stated that she's never going to her parents' house again as she is angry at her father and sees no reason to visit her mother since she doesn't recognize her anyway. They are both in their mid-80's.
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Thundarr,
That all makes sense. My H's crisis was triggered by the suicide of a close friend; a year after that happened H even told me that he hadn't dealt with it.... later he admitted that he just drank in order to not feel anything. And in my attempt to help him I encouraged him to go to an alternative therapist who I had also been seeing..... and she turned out to be the original alienator.......
And H's mother now has Alzheimer's as well.....
I still don't know if H has properly grieved for his friend; he said that he has stopped beating himself up about it, but perhaps that's in the same vein as him saying he's just not going to feel guilty.
I think you are right when you say that you don't think your wife is "OK" with it all.
But back to the original subject -- I do believe MLC is a process and do see that the only way out is through.
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T & L,
You sent your H to a therapist, and the therapist ended up becoming an alienator? That's just incredibly wrong on so many counts. She could have her license revoked.
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Agree - we live in an especially full on world, where nothing ever seems to be quite good enough.
A dear friend has taken me to see an acupuncturist who trained at the Shanghei University. He is Chinese. When I asked him if there is much MLC in China his words were - 'no, we have a spiritually connected view of ourselves and each other. But, it is slowly creeping in as we become more and more materialistic.'
There is indeed a spiritual deficiencey in western societies. so much emphasis on acquiring things and possesions in order to be "happy" and fulfilled. We compare each other and afford people respect in relation to how much money they have. I don't believe it is a coincidence that my W has left every thing to keep the job she was going to lose.
There was once a dude who was so cool he could walk on water and pretty much do anything he wanted, even commanded the weather and it obeyed. What was his mode of transport? Well for a cool dude like this you would think the latest, hotest pimped up chariot would be his ride. Er, no...your humble donkey. I reckon this guy's self-esteem was so healthy he didn't need "things" to feel good about himself. Certainly didn't need to rev up while waiting at the lights.
A question: how do you define mental health? How do you know when someone is emotionally healthy? And how do you acquire emotional and spiritual health? The MLCer certainly needs it, and given the shock and trauma and the need to cope, the LBS needs it.
honour
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Thundarr,
She wasn't a counsellor, not that type of therapist, but one who worked in a quasi-medical field. It's a branch of a more mainstream type of treatment.... the kind that seems fine on the surface and then you wonder as you get deeper into it. I researched it later and found that it fit the description of "therapy cult". I did actually talk to their professional association (and I didn't know she was the alienator at the time, he only admitted taht 2.5 years later) and found that I would have had a case for other reasons, but that it would be long, drawn-out and expensive, and I decided that I had other, better things to do.
I'd be happy to explain more in a PM if you want.
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A question: how do you define mental health? How do you know when someone is emotionally healthy? And how do you acquire emotional and spiritual health? The MLCer certainly needs it, and given the shock and trauma and the need to cope, the LBS needs it.
honour
Mental Health:
Mental health describes either a level of cognitive or emotional well-being or an absence of a mental disorder. From perspectives of the discipline of positive psychology or holism mental health may include an individual's ability to enjoy life and procure a balance between life activities and efforts to achieve psychological resilience. Mental health is an expression of emotions and signifies a successful adaptation to a range of demands.
Emotional Health:
Emotional health is defined by the degree to which you feel emotionally secure and relaxed in everyday life. An emotionally healthy person has a relaxed body, an open mind and an open heart.
The more emotional health you possess, the more self esteem you have. This means you do not frequently react with knee jerk responses, anxiety or panic to the events that occur in your life.
Instead, you are usually calm and patient with yourself and others. This means you are an emotionally safe person.
Emotionally safe people do not judge or criticize others. This is because they have learned not to judge and criticize themselves.
Emotionally healthy people feel safe and secure with their own emotions and feelings. They feel their feelings and emotions instead of avoiding them or trying to control them.
To be emotionally healthy you must express your emotions in healthy, assertive ways.
How do you acquire emotional and spiritual health?:
Unlike physical health whereby there are certain, scientific facts which can’t be disputed (i.e. water is vital for life and most of us don’t drink enough of it), emotional and spiritual wellbeing is a different beast and extremely personal. Here are my two cents as to how you can begin…
Get to know yourself - self awareness is truly, truly powerful; the more deeply you know yourself, the greater the impact you can have on your world. This is not to be under-estimated. If you do nothing else, spend your life figuring out who you really and truly are – in all your glory.
Figure out your triggers - understanding and identifying what presses your buttons, gets you stressed and sends you off kilter is useful in the process of learning how to regain your centre.
Find a practice which works for you – be it a moment of quiet contemplation first thing in the morning, last thing at night or in the shower; or a more formal approach to meditation and visualisation.
Set up a support system – you can do this all alone if that works for you but you may find that an emotional and spiritual support system can function as a net should you ever need to be caught.
To become a pioneer of your own life, you have to know whose life you’re living. At the very heart of this is YOU. Who are you? And how do you accept, respect, nurture, honour and protect this?
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Excellent post, Kikki, and opens my eyes that I am NOT emotionally healthy right now, or at least I'm not when gauged by the baseline of when things are ok. I can't envision being emotionally healthy while being alone and unloved by your soulmate but I guess I'll get there and will understand it when I do, as so many on here have.
Funny thing is on the board in the common area staff always write a saying for the kids to read and learn from. Today's message is "Happiness is up to ourselves." I'm not there yet and too mired in negative thoughts as Syn pointed out to me on my thread. I hope Honour and the rest of us can find our places of peace.
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Hi,
I'm curious about what you feel the main cause of your spouses' MLC is. I'm sure that many of them have multiple causes, like mine (childhood issues, narcissism, extreme stress), but you may have discovered that one is stronger than others.
For example, my H isn't worried about dealing with his childhood issues, was extremely stressed and depressed but actually if he hadn't developed somewhat a narcissistic personality (which, as we know, is a defense against things that have happened), he would have reacted in a different way to me and to stress. So I'd put underlying personality disorder as the key issue.
The reason I'm putting up this poll is because our perceptions may affect our decision to stand, or not, and certainly how to deal with our MLCer.
Until recently, I'd always believed that H's main problem was stress, and if only he had less, or could deal with it differently, he wouldn't have burnt out, and he'd be happier. That, actually, is H's story to himself and me.
Now I believe he's a covert narcissist, and I'm questioning my stand, while also questioning my own behaviour and trying to change it.
It's not that we can change our spouse, but we can reflect and change ourselves. We should always focus on getting a life, detaching, etc. in any circumstances.
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OK Mermaid, you went ahead and started one more discussion thread, similar to already existing ones. In a few days, as usual with discussion threads, I will be merging it, or putting it into the archives. We have too many discussion threads in the board.
PS - I have merged it with the other thread on MLC that you have started. That way, the whole discussion will be on one place. Please stick to a single thread about the matter. Thank you.
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Thank you Anjae. I hope it will be useful. I'd added a link to our archived thread on MLC, rather than putting it all back up. I couldn't actually find a similar thread at the moment. I understand the need to not overcrowd the site with new discussions.
The reason I started a new thread was to have a poll... the only way to do this is to start a new thread. Unfortunately, my explanation for the poll is separated from the poll itself. It's set to run for just two weeks. I hope it doesn't get archived too quickly!!!
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Interesting...
I voted for external factors, work, OW - I believe this was the evident 'trigger', however, I believe childhood factors play a role - one year and a half before BD (we had just come back from celebrating or silver wedding anniversary), my h. had a tearful exchange with our children who had held a party at the house in our absence - telling them that they did not know what it was to grow up without a father - his father left the house one day :o before his sixteenth birthday and died when h. was 20 (almost 21) - still in the throes of MLC.
Our eldest son was 18 and our youngest (d) was coming up to 16 at BD.
This is what I observe...
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Hi Mitzpah, old friend.
So do you think that all factors needed to be together for MLC to take place? Not one factor which is more important?
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I think the main cause of my H's MLC is underlying childhood/FOO issues. His family is far more dysfunctional under the surface than I thought when I first started dating him. However, I do think there has to be something else contributing. His childhood certainly wasn't as "bad" as others' who manage to avoid an MLC and deal with them in an emotionally healthy way.
His dad was bipolar (diagnosed later in life) and mom suffers from pretty significant depression, so there is definitely a genetic component of chemical imbalances there. However, even very recently in a conversation we had, he brought up three separate childhood woundings that obviously still plague him and he obviously has not dealt with in an appropriate manner. I have known about these for many years. Sad that he still can't cope and is still trying to find ways to compensate for the insecurities.
His brother has not had an MLC (that I am aware of - I have not spoken to him in years) but has never been a very nice person in the years since I have known him. He behaved quite badly for years and has been married multiple times. I used to be in awe that my H was so normal when his brother turned out the way he did. Ha. Now, his brother actually seems to be settling down and normalizing and my H has flipped. Sigh.
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I voted for depression, but I'm probably one of the ones who does go for the "perfect storm" model; I see that stress and burnout had a role to play, I know that the original alienator/OW was a factor, there were other things as well.
He has a huge fear of rejection, and once admitted to rejecting me before I rejected him. He frequently admits to huge guilt.
My reasoning is of course my own experience; and watching at a distance as my H implodes his life, still blaming me somehow.
Mine says that he always felt not good enough. But rather than look at himself he decided to blame me, which is consistent with many things that RCR writes.
Is it a neurological issue? Perhaps, but I don't think to the degree that others see; I'm not on the private side so don't see kikki's story, but know something of it. My situation isn't like Mermaid's.
Mine shows extreme selfishness, but again, not the way that Mermaid describes. The early years had activity that led some to ask if he was bipolar; that seems to have calmed down somewhat.
There may be some childhood issues, but nothing like the kinds of trauma that others describe, indeed, he grew up in a loving family, if materially poor.
As far as I can tell, mine continues to look for external solutions to internal problems, and just can't or perhaps more accurately won't see himself.
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Mermaid, if the poll is set for two weeks, I'll make a note and will not archive the thread before
it, unless it reaches 150 posts. If it reaches 150 posts, start a new one, use the same title but
put a 2 or a II ahead of it, and repeat/do a new poll. That way you will not lose the poll, and
the thread will not pass 150 posts. If a second thread with poll is started, let me know for how
long have you set the poll. Thank you.
I voted for stress/burnout. It was present before the depression. The stress and anxiety were
aggravated with the death of Mr J's paternal grandmother early Summer 2005, growing responsibilities at work, the expansion of our joint project and our plan to readjust our life in
order to have children. I think together it all become too much, his stress levels keep rising,
then, at some point, the depression hit.
By March, or April, 2006 Mr J said he was depressed. He said the same a couple of months later, when he left, a couple of months after he left and in May 2007, after I had returned home. He never mentioned it again.
The original OW was not something that I consider a relevant factor. Without the tress/burnout
and the depression she would had never existed. Of course she made things much worst, but she is just a symptom.
With my cousin, it was also stress first, then depression followed. My cousin was a wallower, he never had OW. Just fantasized about it at times.
I consider it a neurological issue because both stress and depression are neurological issues,
they impact the brain (and body, since the brain controls many functions in the body). Stress and depression are of the real of neuroscience/neurological. Depression, of course, is also of the realm of psychiatry. But, for me, psychiatry aims for the symptoms, not the causes/roots,
internal mechanisms. Nothing wrong in aiming for the symptoms, it is better that not to aim at anything, but my view is that psychiatry is often a little out of step with the times. In essence, they need to integrated neuroscience/neurobiology/biology more. Some psychiatrists or psychiatric hospitals already work that way, but still isn't the norm. I think,, in time, it will become more common.
There were some childhood issues with Mr J, but nothing that bad/serious. There were not childhood issues in my cousin's case. Adolescence, yes, from around 15 or 16. Like myself, by cousin grew up in a loving family.
Mr J is like Trustandlove's husband, he continues to look for external solutions to internal problems. For all I know, Mr J also won't see himself. Mr J knows that if stops the crazy MLC life
he will be thinking about it all. He himself had said so on occasions, therefore, at times, he has
some awareness that the issues are internal and that he has to face them. He just keeps running and running.
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NPD magnified by MLC.
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I replied none, only because in my H case he is in the "chicken or egg" category.
Looking back to BD #1 - announcing he was going to move out and start going out every Friday night nearly 2 years ago he had lost a dear friend 6 months before to a heart attack. The friend was 50. This was the first stressor, followed by being unhappy with his work. His father lived with us for 6 months out of the year and this brought out FOO issues that never were resolved.
So in the chronological version of my H's MLC it looks something like this:
Friend dies - stress/depression
Father living with us - FOO
Father was sick - illness back - terminal - more FOO
Our kids are at age when FIL left and divorced when H was a kid. -FOO & social fears
Stress and burnout from work and finances take a dive. Loses clients
Hates his career
Nearing his 50th birthday - social fears
Notice severe hormonal changes - hair falling out, pain in his joints and can't sleep.
Depression (he denies this)
Genetics - changes in body
FIL starts to live vicariously through H and encourages bad behaviors - spending, going out, etc. (External factors & FOO)
OW enters picture.
BD #2 - EA/PA
Brief reconciliation - depression still present, but seems better.
Second financial hit (expected and thought things were going to be okay)
FIL's health is failing, BIL (eldest) has heart attack and BIL #5 has pickled himself after years of drinking. H realizes BIL #5 with his addiction to alcohol has no moral fiber and his addiction drives his brother to do unthinkable things. (Took his mother for all of her money years ago, has done the same to FIL)
Detaches from our kids and moves out.
Has new friends and OW is just his "friend" - doesn't see she is manipulating him.
H is burned out, yet has become impulsive in his depressed state.
I don't know if it is just one thing in my H case - I suspect the initial catalyst was having to deal with his own mortality. Ironically, if he had looked at his friend's life closely, he would have realized his friend was living the life my H is trying to live now. Most of us saw his friend was not happy underneath it all and if he could speak from the grave he would be slapping my H silly - saying "Mate, you have all you need right in front of you - don't blow it like I did".
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I absolutely without a doubt 'believe' in MLC. I voted childhood issues or could be any type of FOO issues yet my H keeps everything so hidden, I don't KNOW the truth. Only he does, and it would be impossible for me to get that out of him, especially now.
In my observation of him and what others say in this forum I highly doubt any type of neurological, permanent mental illness or any type of physical issues are involved.
Too many people describing almost identical strange behavior/events, including almost identical words they say for it not to be true to me.
Yet that is only my opinion.
My H did say that after his father passed he fell into a deep depression. Hence that is when the MLC started or was triggered.
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I will add fear of mortality to my vote, at least on this post. I know my H was horrified at turning 30, let alone 40 or 50. The earlier years of this crisis were pretty classic -- doing all sorts of things that he was literally afraid he'd miss doing and suddenly he'd be 80 and it would be too late -- but mostly things that would be considered illegal or immoral. He still wants to be seen as "getting down with the kids"; his worst insult to someone is that they are "boring", much like a teenager.
But somehow he blames me for it all; he feels entitled to everything he wants, and somehow I have denied it to him, whether it was with family obligations before he left, or by not playing into his idea of what post-leaving life would be now.
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I believe stress also. H never knew how to handle stress in a healthy way. The stress of his job, his golf game (major hobby), his coaching football, and his marriage growing apart all at once led him to handle it by finding OW.
OW sympathized with his stresses. Then having the affair with OW led to the depression, since now he had turned his life completely upside down. This created more stress and thus the cycle continues.
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Not sure if this has been posted anywhere on the threads, yet, but it's a good one that covers all of the bases:
The Spellbinding Bond to Narcissists and Psychopaths – What’s Happening in the Brain?
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/the-spellbinding-bond-to-narcissists-and-psychopaths_us_57a4dbabe4b034b25894cc80
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I wish we had like buttons!!!
This is even more interesting than I thought it would be. Thanks everyone. I know it's hard to choose one issue, because in most cases there is more than one thing. Like PD, which might be marginal, then something happens.
Thanks Anjae. Let's see how this goes. If it's still going strong close to 20 Aug, is it possible to extend the end date?
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You're welcome, Mermaid.
If it's still going strong close to 20 Aug, is it possible to extend the end date?
It is. Doing it on the 19th or 19th may be best. Please remind me to do so.
Interesting articles, Ready2.
I think some of it could be applied to MLCers. They have dopamine, oxytocin and endogenous opiates levels out of balance. They have cortisol (stress), serotonin and adrenaline levels out of balance. They have I don't know how many other levels out of balance.
It is impossible to think straight, even because as in the case of victims of abuse, the brain will not allow for it, to think straight under the crazy cocktail MLCers are under.
Osb had been explaining a few things about it, and talking how she could see some behaviours in her husband, who was always needing to run to his fix.
"This combination of neurochemistry (along with endogenous opioids) can create an addictive attachment that is difficult to break." Or a powerful addiction in the case of MLCers to they Replay activities and/or OW/OM.
"Having reactions of craving, dependence and withdrawal can occur even if the victim is aware that logically the partner is a poor or dangerous mate.
Therefore, the decision to ‘stay’ is not really a decision at all. Rather it is an addictive response that brains can have to a relationship of this type."
Replacing victim by MLCer and add activity to partner and it becomes easy to understand the MLCer problem. Or part of it, since I think it is more complex (just like with an abuse victim). The MLCer may even be aware that replay activities and OW/OM are bad for them, but they are not capable or breaking free. They are addicted to them.
Withdrawal is a terrible, difficult place to be. The MLCer does not want to go there. Some taste a little of it, and quickly run to a new fix, in order to keep supplying the addiction.
How much of the MLCers behaviour is a choice and how much is providing for the all controlling addiction? I don't know, but addiction of whatever type is hard to break. And its withdrawal a dark, cold, unfriendly place.
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I think some of it could be applied to MLCers. They have dopamine, oxytocin and endogenous opiates levels out of balance. They have cortisol (stress), serotonin and adrenaline levels out of balance. They have I don't know how many other levels out of balance.
It is impossible to think straight, even because as in the case of victims of abuse, the brain will not allow for it, to think straight under the crazy cocktail MLCers are under.
Osb had been explaining a few things about it, and talking how she could see some behaviours in her husband, who was always needing to run to his fix.
"This combination of neurochemistry (along with endogenous opioids) can create an addictive attachment that is difficult to break." Or a powerful addiction in the case of MLCers to they Replay activities and/or OW/OM.
How much of the MLCers behaviour is a choice and how much is providing for the all controlling addiction? I don't know, but addiction of whatever type is hard to break. And its withdrawal a dark, cold, unfriendly place.
It's interesting to look at the effect of brain chemistry on behaviour, and also to consider choice. Addictions (of any type) are always more than the substance. Choices and perceptions affect them too (when psychologists want to help break addictions, they have to remove stimuli, including social ones, but the person has to want to change, and realise it's necessary).
On the other hand, behaviour is always more than conscious choices. We all think we are making conscious choices, but we are not, up to 95% of the time. Most choices are deeply unconscious. Likewise with our MLCer.
I also doubt that there is a neurological addiction without having a learned response first. For example, my H was "hooked" on his EA with OW, but she was also his narcissistic pair, mirroring his likes and dislikes. There may have been a physical attraction too. But without his initial learned response to life, through somewhat narcissistic self-protection, this probably wouldn't have happened.
The euphoria of love is limited, neurologically, and burns out. Some people really do get hooked on the feelings of love, and when it burns out, look to renew the experience. But what type of person does that? Not everyone, for sure. But certainly some of those MLCers do, and they have serial affairs looking for this feeling, which then fades. A cold, dark unfriendly place indeed.
But they can take responsibility for their feelings, which requires facing up to them. The most successful people at overcoming addictions of any sort are those with broader emotional resources.
Talking of addictions. When I started spying on my Hs emails, I got totally addicted to that. Before I looked at them, my heart rate would rise and my breathing got shallower. I could feel my addiction. I eventually stopped, but it was hard.
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On the other hand, behaviour is always more than conscious choices. We all think we are making conscious choices, but we are not, up to 95% of the time. Most choices are deeply unconscious. Likewise with our MLCer. ~
Indeed. But brain and body can be more powerful than the person's will. We all know people who have been in rehab a number of times and relapsed. Sometimes it takes several times into rehab for the person to be able to not use whatever they are addicted to. The addiction in itself is often (if not always) curable. And alcoholic will always be an alcoholic. They have to stay away from alcohol because they are not able to only drink one glass.
It is. To a point, I have a slightly different view on the conscious decisions. For example, Robert Sapolsky does not believe in free will. I do. I make a distinction between what I call mechanical actions, and the decision to write on the board.
The first could be all the mechanisms necessary to make me type on the keyboard. They are there, commanded by the brain, but I am not aware of them. They are mechanical and automatic. Writing on the board is something I decide to do or not to do. And that, for me, is free will. Sapolsky and other "hard line" biologists/neurobiologist think we have no free will at all. Which, for some, could be a very convenient excuse for a number of things and letting people walk from any responsibility. I am not saying that it is the reason why those scientist think the way they do, it isn't. Just that some people could use to "get away with murder".
I also doubt that there is a neurological addiction without having a learned response first.
You may be right. I have to learn more about that. I have read some things with mice. It is possible that they are valid for humans, but it is an area I need to understand better. Mr J (the real one) is not a narcissist, so I can't use narcissism with him. I think with Mr J it was the depression. It made him feel lonely, frustrated and starting to see everything dark, except for OW1, who was providing a high, a light, along with the djing. He got addicted to the high she provided, as well as to the one that come from djing.
Some MLCers get hooked to OW/OM, and some to their MLC activity/activities. While Trustandlove's husband jumps from OW to OW, some, like Mr J, use their MLC activity. Mr J changes djing partners and tries new djing places, types of music, etc. He has been with OW2 for 8 years, she is not the one providing the high. Or maybe she is, if there is drama going on. I have no idea about that.
It is hard to stop any addiction. I had a little bit of that with Mr J's Facebook years ago. Then I gave it up. It took precious time and served no point. I also had it with my going out and about in the early times after BD. But I knew it was temporary. I had even said it to people, this is going to end soon. It did. And it was horrible. The withdrawal was terrible.
And, yet, my going out and about cannot compare to what MLCers do and for how long they do it. I cannot imagine how awful their withdrawal is. I know what in brain and body will be affected, but that is different from truly feeling the effects.
No wonder MLCers try to keep with their MLC behaviour for as long as possible. The cold, dark place is not attractive. And, when one is there, is seems hopeless. The pain never seems to end. It is very difficult to understand/think/feel that there will be light again and the pain will be, if not fully gone, much, much lower.
In a way, Replay is easy compared with hitting bottom. Bottom and all the work afterwards is the real hard part. And that, as you know from first hand experience, is the same for the LBS. Reconnection is extremely hard.
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Indeed. But brain and body can be more powerful than the person's will. Robert Sapolsky does not believe in free will. I do. I make a distinction between what I call mechanical actions, and the decision to write on the board.
Sapolsky and other "hard line" biologists/neurobiologist think we have no free will at all. Which, for some, could be a very convenient excuse for a number of things and letting people walk from any responsibility. I am not saying that it is the reason why those scientist think the way they do, it isn't. Just that some people could use to "get away with murder".
The problem with neurobiologists is that they tend to take a neurobiological perspective... and social constructivists take a purely social constructivist perspective. Never the twain shall meet. Damasio does a brilliant job of discussing the brain body connection, issues of biological sources of the self and the importance of emotions in learning and decision making, but seems to lack some perspective when it comes to understanding how people act in the social world.
Except there are some who can straddle that divide. Famously, Bruner and Popper, for example. One of the most interesting books I've read on the issue of free will and choice, which considers neurology and psychology, is "Strangers to Ourselves: Discovering the Adaptive Unconscious" by Timothy Wilson.
We do have a degree of choice. But it's not the free will that Satre envisaged, nor determinism of Skinner or Bandura. There are so many things we don't and cannot choose, and which become a deep part of our learned behaviour. They disappear from our consciousness because we'd be paralyzed by too many choices if we had to think about every aspect of our lives, every minute of the day. (This is a process that Damasio describes well). But then these become part of the pattern of living... including the defense mechanisms that create personality disorders.
I think with Mr J it was the depression. It made him feel lonely, frustrated and starting to see everything dark, except for OW1, who was providing a high, a light, along with the djing. He got addicted to the high she provided, as well as to the one that come from djing.
Depression can come from reactions to external events, although this reaction varies with emotional resources, and it can also be from biological processes. Once we become depressed, it can set up a process of brain chemistry which is hard to change.
It is hard to stop any addiction. I had a little bit of that with Mr J's Facebook years ago. Then I gave it up. It took precious time and served no point. I also had it with my going out and about in the early times after BD. But I knew it was temporary. I had even said it to people, this is going to end soon. It did. And it was horrible. The withdrawal was terrible.
I understand that. But you did, and I did... so we had some awareness. What stops them? Fear? Addiction? Something else? Fear, certainly, in anyone with strong defense mechanisms such as those in PDs...
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From this forum my feeling that there is perhaps an equation:
{stress} + {depression} + {addiction} = MLC behavior
Each of these factors could have numerous and even multiple causes. For one person stress is a promotion while for another it is a death. For one depression could stem from new medication, another from chronicle health issue. For some, the addiction is to affair partner, to another it is work.
I think there are enough commonalities to the manifestation of the behavior, and it is peculiar and specific enough, that it must be at least in part neurological. I also believe this because it often is self destructive and cannot be accounted for by MLCer later.
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I also believe this because it often is self destructive and cannot be accounted for by MLCer later.
Could you clarify this for me? I'm not getting what you mean.
Honestly, even though the affairs or work may be addiction-like, if the root of MLC was at least in part due to addiction, we might be seeing more alcoholics and drug addicts here (they may even be more the norm than the exception). There certainly are some, I know, but with my xH, he didn't start the heavy drinking until after MLC started, and his depression was why he sought psychiatric help prior to that (though I know the side effects and/or withdrawal from his meds ramped up his 180 behaviors). It's interesting, and I'm not saying the formula is off, but it still seems too general to call commonalities off of (to me).
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I think the addiction like behaviours, for many, come with MLC. They were not like that before. And the affair only exists because there is MLC, they may become addicted to it, but it is a MLC addiction. Mr J didn't drunk before MLC, other than the occasional glass of red wine, sangria or beer on a special occasion. Since he left the drinking got worst and worst. In his first birthday away from home, he drunk so much that, the next day, he could not remembered anything that had happened. Same with his 40th birthday. He literally drunk till he fall. And some "good friends" were "kind enough" to post those photos on Facebook. Don't ask me which type of friends does that because I do not know.
I think it means MLC behaviour is self destructive, therefore it is not a rational choice, it may indicate imbalance of some sort (neurological or other), that leads to said self destructive behaviour. And that the fact the crazy behaviours are forgotten after the crisis points to something brain connected. Which would not be a lie. The brain has mechanisms to protect itself (and us) from certain things may be considered to detrimental to a person's functioning.
Mermaid, I want to reply to you, but today I am too tired to write long, serious things.
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Should we perhaps distinguish between addiction and compulsion?
The behavioral tic of an MLCer who has to do something (no matter how personally destructive) seems not quite the same as an addict who has to consume something for its secondary effects, no matter how destructive (addiction's a subset of compulsions, not limited to drugs/alcohol; some studies say gambling supplies a physiological high that's similar to a drug-induced high). Agree addictions may show up later, as self-medicating behaviors. Compulsive activity is an umbrella terms that could include all of the I-can't-believe-I'm-doing-this-but-I-simply-have-to-do-it MLC trainwreck behavior presenting right up to BD and afterwards.
I can't be physically addicted to Facebook; but I could feel compelled to look at FB every 15 minutes, like a person with OCD might wash their hands every 15 minutes. It's an almost involuntary form of exerting control when one is spinning out of control, serves to temporarily soothe the savage beast - unsurprisingly, OCD tics show up a lot in depressed individuals. Which gets us back to the MLC chicken and egg story...
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This is interesting. So maybe it is more like:
{stress} + {depression} = MLC behaviors
And one MLC behavior is compulsions?
One question I do have in all this is, for MLC to occur, does there need to also be:
{stress} + {depression} + {marital dissatisfaction} = MLC behaviors
I mean could a person in a truly happy marriage have a MLC? This is something I struggle with a lot. Often it is easier for me to analyze from another's perspective, for example my sister in law had MLC and in my mind she was only seeing an overall happy marriage in a negative light due to depression/imbalance. It is likely a lot of her own depression that led to some of what she experienced as marriage-related unhappiness.
In her case it was obvious for years leading up to "bomb drop" that she was unhappy with her husband. In my husband's case though the change was extremely dramatic. Would this have more to do with the MLCer temperament (maybe he just kept cards close to chest) or is this indicative of some biological stressor?
I'm just wondering, how abrupt does this have to be for this to deviate from typical affair behavior or typical "just wants out" behavior?
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My two cents -- I do think depression is a huge part of it, precisely because depression causes one to look at everything so very differently. Marital dissatisfaction isn't really it per se, I don't think, because pretty much every marriage goes through some unsatisfactory times, but when you are depressed you truly think that the marriage or whatever it is is the root cause, rather than recognising depression for what it is.
It is interesting to consider what causes the depression in the first place, and how much neurological things apply, how much substances affect it, and all that.
I say this only because I have struggled with depressions myself, to various degrees, and I know when the fog descends it really does alter your view of pretty much everything. It becomes hard to keep anything in perspective. And when it lifts you think -- goodness, why on earth did I think that _______ was the problem?
So yes, stress + depression = MLC behaviours. It doesn't help that so many think that depression is a weakness, that "it can't possibly be the problem", that it must be something outside, all that.
That doesn't mean that there aren't things in the marriage or job or everything that don't need improvement, but an MLCer takes that all to the extreme and just wants to dump it all.
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I struggle with the idea that MLC has a formula, because there are so many variants.
{stress} + {depression} = MLC behaviors
One question I do have in all this is, for MLC to occur, does there need to also be:
{stress} + {depression} + {marital dissatisfaction} = MLC behaviors
Depression can be caused by biological events, there's little doubt about that, such as genetic tendencies or illness. There's also little doubt that depression (like all mental events) has a corresponding set of neurochemical changes (low serotonin, etc.)
But some causes start from a behaviour, which is linked to deep issues of self in the social world and relationships, such as substances (medications, drugs, alcohol, food) and the way we react to major events, death, loss, conflict, stress etc. Even genetic tendencies can be turned on or off by events in the social world (and this genetic tendency can continue in later generations without the need for repeated stimulus). Here's a slide share linking to biological causes of depression
http://www.slideshare.net/staroversky/biological-causes-of-depression (http://www.slideshare.net/staroversky/biological-causes-of-depression)
and another one including external and internal events:
http://www.comh.ca/antidepressant-skills/adult/workbook/pages/section1-02-00.cfm (http://www.comh.ca/antidepressant-skills/adult/workbook/pages/section1-02-00.cfm)
I know my H and many others were depressed. But I'm sure that in the case of my H, his depression arose from the way that he interacted with the world, including me, and how he had built his psychological defences. He also got to the point of burnout, which is a severe physiological reaction to stress, and also led to some need for escape activities, which relieved that sense of stress. Compulsive behaviours become rewarding because of how they make you feel.
In other words, it would be a mistake to think of depression, in most cases, as a purely neurological event unrelated with the outside world.
It would also be a mistake to say that you need to have depression to be in crisis (some MLCers don't seem to), which is when someone faces an obstacle, trauma, or threat, from which they can grow or decline. Reactions vary, as we have seen, including the escapist behaviours that we report so often.
I like this old definition from Caplam; “People are in a state of crisis when they face an obstacle to important life goals—and obstacle that is, for a time, insurmountable by the use of customary methods of problem-solving.”
So, what we can say is that they are in crisis, sometimes including depression, and their attempts to solve it result in often destructive and escapist behaviours.
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I know my H and many others were depressed. But I'm sure that in the case of my H, his depression arose from the way that he interacted with the world, including me, and how he had built his psychological defences. He also got to the point of burnout, which is a severe physiological reaction to stress, and also led to some need for escape activities, which relieved that sense of stress. Compulsive behaviours become rewarding because of how they make you feel.
Mermaid, how often I have found similarities between your husband and mine! Especially this:
Compulsive behaviours become rewarding because of how they make you feel.
I recently spent some time with my husband and that always gives me a window into this crisis.....and as usual, I am struck by his inability to have any emotional connection, or more correctly, to show any emotional connection to anything except his addiction which is to his job. For I do not know what is happening inside of him, but outwardly he is locked inside a block of ice...that is the only way I can explain it, frozen in time and place without any real connection to anything or anyone other than work and the people that he works with.
What will happen to these men, when work runs out? Maybe they will successfully transfer their dedication and devotion to something else......but are they able to emotionally connect to anyone again?
This to me is a tragedy for no matter how I have felt pain from the lack of connection, I still feel a rainbow of emotions that allow my life to feel complete and indeed satisfying.
This may explain why he continues to remain in contact with me.....I am still the one who brings family together, he may see me, with my ability to emotionally connect, as a link to that world that he has no access to....for indeed, his comment to me many years ago as to why he can not live with me as my being too intense also has some truth in it...but I think it is also what draws him towards me at times.
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I voted for hormonal changes, but social fears (aging) would have been second.
I feel because of hormonal changes and the fear of aging caused his depression.
So for me it's:
Hormonal changes + fear of aging = depression/MLC
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This may explain why he continues to remain in contact with me.....I am still the one who brings family together, he may see me, with my ability to emotionally connect, as a link to that world that he has no access to....for indeed, his comment to me many years ago as to why he can not live with me as my being too intense also has some truth in it...but I think it is also what draws him towards me at times.
I think he sees you as his mother.
Who would ever have a marital relationship with their mother?
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OP stated:
I think he sees you as his mother.
Who would ever have a marital relationship with their mother?
Indeed, they may see us as a parent....as so often the crisis occurs after a parent dies.
As long as he is in crisis, he's incapable of having a healthy emotional relationship with anyone.
At this point in time, I celebrate opportunities that we can share together as a family. As we have always said, our marriages were over at BD and if reconciliation ever did occur, it certainly would be a "new" relationship and one that could only happen when the MLCer has managed to resolve their crisis/depression or what ever sent them running away in the first place.
Hopefully, he would not see me as his mother then ;D
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OP, that was something I thought, too, about mine.
My H always said I was very nurturing "like his mother." (it was said when talking about me and my kids)
So I go out of my way not to nurture HIM in any way. Don't want to be his mother in any way, shape or form. :-\
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So I go out of my way not to nurture HIM in any way.
Don't want to be his mother in any way, shape or form. :-\
I think that is a good idea!
I do not think you can love them out of their crisis.
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Nope, you sure can't. ::)
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This may explain why he continues to remain in contact with me.....I am still the one who brings family together, he may see me, with my ability to emotionally connect, as a link to that world that he has no access to....for indeed, his comment to me many years ago as to why he can not live with me as my being too intense also has some truth in it...but I think it is also what draws him towards me at times.
I think he sees you as his mother.
Who would ever have a marital relationship with their mother?
Mine too... in the depth of his crisis, he seemed to conflate what his controlling mother did/ said and what I did/ said. He avoided his mother for some time (she was very hurt). Now he's home, but he doesn't ML any more. Is it because I'm old or he still sees me as a mother-figure? Or because he's still depressed?
Mermaid, how often I have found similarities between your husband and mine! Especially this:
Compulsive behaviours become rewarding because of how they make you feel.
I recently spent some time with my husband and that always gives me a window into this crisis.....and as usual, I am struck by his inability to have any emotional connection, or more correctly, to show any emotional connection to anything except his addiction which is to his job.
xyzcf, we've often pondered this similarity. I've come to the conclusion that mine is on the narcissistic spectrum, without having full blown NPD. Here are the warning signs;
1. Emotional phobia; they shore up their self-confidence by imagining themselves as self-sufficient and impervious to other people's behaviour and feelings
2. Projection. They project the feelings that they are trying to ignore onto someone else, and even provoke you into having them.
3. Controlling. They need to be in charge, and feel uneasy asking for help.
4. Putting people on pedestals. If they place their lover on a pedestal, it's another way of saying how special they are
5. Fantasizing that they have a twin or soul mate . With a mirror twin at their side, their ideas make sense, and the other reflects who they feel they are. It's the narcissism of early love or adolescence, and also of illicit lovers.
Is that your H's case too?
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OP Thanks for the laugh ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Nope you can't love them out of it. I think they view you as nuts going back to them or if they come back after all the devastation and pain they have caused.
And if they don't look at you that way. They certainly will do their level best to make you feel that way. They can only drive you crazy if you hand them the keys. Especially if you live with them. (Or in my case let the past back into your life whatsoever with any contact with the ex).
I was everybody's "mother" at one point in time. The kids change how you operate.
It doesn't matter what we did. IF we had been exactly what they thought they wanted at one point we weren't what they wanted after the years passed. Hard to keep up with all the hoop jumping and how we try to be and/or what they expect us to be IMHO.
I'm finding this has worked out much better for me. I'm not as stressed, anxious, panicked, and miserable all the time. I'm still pretty sad. I don't think it's depression. I know how that feels.
I'm not sad because he's out of my life. I'm grateful.
It's the kids.
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The mothering thing is interesting. We were childfree, but at one point pre-BD I remember yelling at him that I was tired of feeling like I was his mother. The intimacy was gone from our relationship and it really was just down to me as a caretaker, breadwinner, therapist, cheerleader, you name it. Sexual monogamy (or wannabe at that time, I really don't know when the PA started) to the OW, who was his new "best friend". Mommy issues for sure though as his was 19 when she had him (oldest of 4) and had a home daycare his whole life that he resented. She did essentially babysit them to adulthood instead of providing any form of warmth or safety, and now they all 4 have "adulting" issues. Narc father didn't help. They all continue to move back home periodically, but now usually bring their families with them. He was the "black sheep" in that regard, but I can see in looking back where a lot of his success came from me carrying the emotional and organizational load, and him being free to live like a teen.
Ironically saw on FB this past mother's day that he made a big gushing post about OW being a wonderful mother to his three (grown) stepchildren, yet nothing to his own mother who is one of his FB friends. Maybe on her page? Still odd he celebrated someone else right in front of her. I knew that "renewed relationship" with her after BD would eventually crumble a bit. It always does with those people after they get what they want. Just go back to the blame game. Glad to be out of the loop!
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Hi Mermaid! You wrote:
xyzcf, we've often pondered this similarity. I've come to the conclusion that mine is on the narcissistic spectrum, without having full blown NPD. Here are the warning signs;
1. Emotional phobia; they shore up their self-confidence by imagining themselves as self-sufficient and impervious to other people's behaviour and feelings
2. Projection. They project the feelings that they are trying to ignore onto someone else, and even provoke you into having them.
3. Controlling. They need to be in charge, and feel uneasy asking for help.
4. Putting people on pedestals. If they place their lover on a pedestal, it's another way of saying how special they are
5. Fantasizing that they have a twin or soul mate . With a mirror twin at their side, their ideas make sense, and the other reflects who they feel they are. It's the narcissism of early love or adolescence, and also of illicit lovers.
Is that your H's case too?
I don't see him as a narcissist although he displays some traits, I think because he is an only child. I am more inclined to view him as possibly being on the Asperger's/Autistic spectrum due to his phenomenal success in his business career but difficulty with emotional connections.
He certainly likes to be in control in his career but he never was like that with me in our marriage nor is he like that now with me. He and I have always easily come to similar conclusions about situations, possibly because we are on the same wave length in so many ways, even to this day.
Other than his venture out into having an affair early on in the crisis, he has never made her or any other woman known...if he is or has been involved with others, he has kept it very quiet so I would not say that he places anyone on a pedestal.
My intuition tells me that he does not love himself as evidenced by his physical condition and thus doesn't feel worthy of other's love. Even though he comes across as arrogant and boastful, in reality I think he has very low self esteemed self worth.
Even within MLC, they are all "snowflakes" which is what makes it difficult to pinpoint specifics about the similarities although we care very certain that the similarities and patterns exist.
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I said FOO issues because the stages of MLC started right after his father passed about 4 or 5 years ago now that I look back. When it first started he would talk about his family a whole lot and I really didn't know why, yet also knew nothing about MLC back then.
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I don't have a problem with a formula for MLC. Regardless of the source/cause of those, depression + stress seems pretty accurate.
Plus, humans are not designed or equipped to deal with such constant levels of stress. We are able to deal with acute short physicall stress (if we have to run or respond to an emergency situation), but not with prolonged emotional or physical stress. That will cause us a lot of problems, often even leading to a series of illnesses.
Evidently, unless it is illness related, stress comes from external causes. But as soon as it is felt inside body and brain, it becomes an inner issue that will reflect in behaviour, mood, etc. If the person does not change what is causing the stress, the stress is not going to go away, and will remain a brain and body issue.
Stress can easily lead to depression. Depression clouds judgement and way of thinking. Even if the depression came from external factors, it is only depression because it affected the brain, therefore becoming a neurological problem.
I have trouble understanding depression as " deep issues of self in the social world and relationships", probably because I don't really understand the self thing, other than in Jung. And in Jung I see it as a poetry thing.
I read what you wrote Mermaid, but even if the depression comes from any of those things "medications, drugs, alcohol, food" it is the brain and body that process the mechanisms. Regardless where the depression come from, the brain mechanisms are the same, the effect will be the same. what may be different is the treatment/cure. May, because once the brain is firing or not firing, all sorts of things, the game changes.
So, social, genetic, biological, it does not matter, depression is present in MLCers. So is stress.
Burnout is indeed a physiological reaction to stress. And psychological. And it also leads to depression. I know, I suffered from it three times and it always lead to depression. So did Mr J twice before BD. His MLC response to stress and depression is different. Before BD he would crash and have the behaviour that one normally associates with depression, lack of motivations, incapable of getting out of bed, etc.
I have never come across a MLC who is not depressed. The two common denominators seem to be stress and depression. MLC is not a normal crisis. It is not something that leads to a brief crisis mode. It lasts, and lasts and lasts, and while it lasts it adds more things and makes it all much more complicated.
Anyway, in Mr J case he himself said he was depressed pre and after BD. And the doctor from his company confirmed. So, in his case, depression was a fact. And so was stress. The same is true for my cousin, friend and acquaintances who have MLC.
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Anyway, in Mr J case he himself said he was depressed pre and after BD. And the doctor from his company confirmed. So, in his case, depression was a fact. And so was stress. The same is true for my cousin, friend and acquaintances who have MLC.
So, is your H still depressed then, Anjae, as his crisis continues?
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I am wondering how sexuality plays into MLC. A new sex partner seems to be the catalyst for bomb drop for almost everyone on the forum. Sometimes MLCer has been secretly involved in an emotional affair with this person for years.
Does euphoria of affair/hormones create the catalyst for the "mania" we see at bomb drop. Is this the straw that breaks the camel's back?
Another question is there anyone at all out there who had really good sex life with MLCer right up until bomb drop?
I know that not everyone who has an affair will continue the affair once it is out in the open, but that this is the trend with MLC. What makes a MLC different than a "typical" affair?
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I am wondering how sexuality plays into MLC. A new sex partner seems to be the catalyst for bomb drop for almost everyone on the forum. Sometimes MLCer has been secretly involved in an emotional affair with this person for years.
Does euphoria of affair/hormones create the catalyst for the "mania" we see at bomb drop. Is this the straw that breaks the camel's back?
Another question is there anyone at all out there who had really good sex life with MLCer right up until bomb drop?
I know that not everyone who has an affair will continue the affair once it is out in the open, but that this is the trend with MLC. What makes a MLC different than a "typical" affair?
Velika, Quite honestly, I really see this as being about "the grass is greener on the other side" type of delusion. They get bored with their current situations and think there's something better out there, but usually find just the opposite, but by then it's too late.
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I believe the affair is just a band-aid, a desperate attempt to "feel better." It is someone new and different. And I believe many (most? all?) suffer from poor self-esteem from their childhood wounding and so badly need that validation. Never mind that their spouses provide that...
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In my case too the affair was just one symptom. They get a lot of motivation from the affair partner for change, or do they? There are people here whose spouses ran off within weeks of meeting the alienator. There are some that knew them for years, and may have been in a relationship with them that entire time. I think that most of them have affairs is consistent, but many of the details about the affairs and how they relate to behaviors vary enough that I'm uncomfortable saying that's the scale-tipper for all or most of us. Doesn't mean it's not for some.
I think the difference is with "normal" affairs, the cheater is found out and feels shame. They will try to save the marriage or at least end it with dignity. With MLC affairs, they are more what Dr. Joe Beam (and I'm not a convert of his, but using this here as an example) refers to as "limerence" which is an obsessive state, and having the affair discovered may be a kind of relief. They can now get it out in the open and leave the marriage (or CHANGE the marriage, since many are motivated to continue compartmentalizing). With normal or exit affairs, the mental illness type behavior or strangeness ends with the ending of the affair. With MLC, it does not.
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Could be.
The ex described the ex ow as a clean slate. Someone he had no history with.
Therefore he could feed her any bull$h!te he liked. She wouldn't know the truth and would think he was just wonderful. He could rewrite his entire life with her. She was someone he could feel superior to. She would worship and adore him. She fed his ego.
Both of them caught onto each other in fairly short order. She described him later as someone who only focused on her issues and never his own.
But if you asked him? He had the perfect childhood.
And she (he found out later) was far from who he thought she was.
And he had done the same thing will me in the relationship to make me feel like I wasn't "normal" or something was wrong with me. ( Actually there was. It was my FOO and my desire to want a family is why I took the abuse I did).
Mostly I think because I had feelings. And somehow he looked at that as me being defective.
I didn't ever have an original thought in my head that he didn't think someone else put there. When I would say something he'd say " Who told you to think like that?" :o ::) >:(
Boy and that's the truth Ready2. The affair ended but the bizarre behavior didn't. I wish I hadn't been around to witness it..or endure the abuse that was there with it.
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The ex described the ex ow as a clean slate. Someone he had no history with.
Therefore he could feed her any bull$h!te he liked. She wouldn't know the truth and would think he was just wonderful. He could rewrite his entire life with her. She was someone he could feel superior to. She would worship and adore him. She fed his ego.
That's it exactly. And also why so many MLCers (like mine) got a whole set of "friends" - they can tell them anything they like because they don't know their history. They can't paint their spouses as evil as they like because they don't know them.
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Yes, tocslave he is still depressed and his crisis continues. He still drinks a lot, he still is going strong with the replay behaviour.
The affair is about validation and trying to rise their low self-esteem. For the self-esteem has more to do with the depression than childhood issues, but it does not make a difference, the esteem is low.
The LBS does not provide enough validation because we do not nod our heads at all the crazy behaviour. The alienator is fine with whatever insanity the MLCer is up to. To the MLCer that translates into "love". Go figure.
Indeed. And that is one of the big differences between normal affairs and MLC affairs. The other was also pointed by Ready2, in a normal affair the person feels shame when found and tries to save the marriage, in MLC they don't care and carry on with the affair.
Exactly, with the alienator and a new set of friends, the MLCer can tell them anything they like because these people do not know them. Even if some MLCers get involved with people that have known for decades and who know their LBS. Some even get involved with a relative or close friend of the LBS. It is not always someone they did not knew before.
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I knew the e xow.Not well but anytime he and I ran into her she totally ignored me and focused entirely on him. I'd stand there and think to myself..he sees this right.Just how she hung on his every word and how over the top she was.
She couldn't have been more obvious.
He had met her before me.There wasn't ever a relationship between them. Its just too funny when you can see someone who is so blatantly all over somone and they seem totally oblivious.
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I just want to echo what Anjae and trusting have said about the clean slate; my H said that exactly -- that another person was just that. I remember pointing out to him that it was only a clean slate until it was written on, but that of course didn't go in at all. I said lots of things in the early years that I now realise was just noise to him.
And yes, my experience is certainly that they use the OW, or many in my case, to feel better, as justification for why they can't stay with us -- because we don't reflect that vision of themselves that they want to see.
Mine has actually said "I don't like to see myself like that" when I have pointed out certain not-good behaviours. And told me that he didn't feel good enough, for which he blames me.
So they use that as justification for not being with us, and go for an OW who "makes no demands on them or their time". At least in my case.
I can see from what insight I do have to these OWs that they all just say the nice things (which are of course often true -- nice smile, good whatever), but don't hold up a mirror to anything less than lovely.
But I have had flashes of insight when my own depression fog descends. I don't think it is anything like what the MLCer experiences, but I know that if someone tries to "help" in that situation it often just makes me feel incompetent and less than. So if they see depression as a weakness and something shameful in the first place, something that others get, if I try to help, no matter how well I phrase it, it will be pushed away.
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So, if this is just about them starting over with a clean slate, it really is something just ego-driven, and self centered thinking, on their part?
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Hi everyone,
I suggest that we end this post, then start another one with a poll on stress and depression. This poll gives an interesting spread or answers, but as we can only choose one answer, we don't know how many MLCers represented here had stress or depression.
I don't have a problem with a formula for MLC. Regardless of the source/cause of those, depression + stress seems pretty accurate.
I think we should survey this to see if it's 100%
Plus, humans are not designed or equipped to deal with such constant levels of stress. We are able to deal with acute short physicall stress (if we have to run or respond to an emergency situation), but not with prolonged emotional or physical stress. That will cause us a lot of problems, often even leading to a series of illnesses.
This is absolutely true, although what is stressful for one person is not for another. There are ways that people can learn how to deal with stress, such as doing sports, meditation, relaxation. My H did all of these, but was not able to combat his stress, and got to burnout, which includes some aspects that seem like MLC; depersonalisation, loss of emotions and connection with friends and family. There's a good list here: http://job-burnout.eu/burnout-phases-consequences/ (http://job-burnout.eu/burnout-phases-consequences/)
Yes, stress is felt physically, has neurological and physical consequences, but it's not always possible to escape it. Coping with stress is attitudinal (being less ambitious/ perfectionist, for example), and behavioural (activities outside work, sleep, etc.). In certain professions, there are greater degrees of stress (medical professionals for example), but not everyone gets stressed, and some people, like my H, can't seem to unwind. In my H's case, it's because he's perfectionist, and cannot let go of this... why? Underlying issues which have left him with narcissistic defences.
Stress eventually leads to depression, as Anjae says. Depression, like everything associated with brain and behaviour, can be seen as a neurological issue. Every thought and every feeling we have is only possible because we have a brain to think and feel them in. It is a mistake to think that because there is a body and brain, that somehow the chemistry is in charge. The tail doesn't wag the dog!
Sometimes we need chemical help in the form of antidepressants to stop the neurological cycles of depression. I took antidepressants when my H was misbehaving. But these are not enough; we still need to take an attitude to change our lives, our behaviours and our perceptions.
I have trouble understanding depression as " deep issues of self in the social world and relationships", probably because I don't really understand the self thing, other than in Jung. And in Jung I see it as a poetry thing.
Jung was very intuitive, and is still a reference in psychology. Having said that, in the 55 years since he died, psychology has come a long way, and there are many different branches. It has merged with neurology in a neurocognitive and behavioural psychology, which might be an approach which might appeal more to those with a hard science background.
Social constructivism is the approach which studies how development of our mind and behaviour is socially situated and knowledge is constructed through interaction with others. So to have a self, we need a social world. It's based on many years of research, not poetry. ;D
Even in neurology, there are constructs of the self, as I've posted elsewhere. The primal self is fairly constant, but we don't have much consciousness of that. The second level of self, emotions, is important in driving interactions, recording emotions according to what works or doesn't work in the social world (Damasio called these somatic marker mechanisms). The autobiographical self is based on stories we tell ourselves about who we are and our choices, and is constantly being rewritten. Far fewer choices than we think are actually conscious. This is because so many aspects of our learning have to become automated so we can focus on other things. This doesn't mean that we can't make choices, we can, but first we have to become aware of them.
In sociology, this approach is similar to Bourdieu's concept of system of embodied dispositions, tendencies that organize the ways in which individuals perceive the social world around them and react to it, and is fairly hard to change. Again, there have been several years of real world research to back this up.
These approaches help us understand why people cannot just look at themselves and decide to behave in a different way. Deep change is possible, but hard. Cognitive behavioural therapy can help, as can forms of meditation.
The one thing all these approaches have in common is that they don't see the brain and behaviour as separate from the social world. In fact, without a social world, the brain does not develop.
I read what you wrote Mermaid, but even if the depression comes from any of those things "medications, drugs, alcohol, food" it is the brain and body that process the mechanisms.
This is true. The brain and body process all stimulae that come in from the outside world.
[/quote]Regardless where the depression come from, the brain mechanisms are the same, the effect will be the same. what may be different is the treatment/cure. May, because once the brain is firing or not firing, all sorts of things, the game changes. [/quote]
This is true up to a certain extent. Some drugs can permanently change the brain, neurons, dopamine receptors. Some diseases, such as bipolar, will result in a permanent cycle of neurochemical changes. (In both cases, attitudes and actions will affect the outcome of treatment).
In other cases, the changes are more temporary.
So, social, genetic, biological, it does not matter, depression is present in MLCers. So is stress.
This is a very interesting question. I'm not sure whether this is always true. I think we should put this to a poll. And even if it is, why do some people have a crisis and others don't? I've had both, so have you, but I haven't had a MLC.
The question is... what tips them over the edge?
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The ex described the ex ow as a clean slate. Someone he had no history with
That's it exactly. And also why so many MLCers (like mine) got a whole set of "friends" - they can tell them anything they like because they don't know their history. They can't paint their spouses as evil as they like because they don't know them.
Ahhh Haaa! Now i understand why the man I was for years never really had any friends?? ODD!!
But, Now he is social butterfly?? 1st chance he got he took OW1 around these soo called friends- Blames me for not having friends for all the years we were together.. Most of the WOMEN he called friends he had been in intimate relationships with them and wondered why I had the problem?? LOL!! I get it now. New Friends Mew Lies and stories to create
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Mermaid, the thread is over 150 posts. Please be so kind to start a new one, using the same title but adding a 2 or II ahead of it. That way the subject does not get lost. Thank you.
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new thread: http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=8116.0