Midlife Crisis: Support for Left Behind Spouses
Archives => Archived Topics => Topic started by: With Gods Help! on January 09, 2012, 05:11:09 PM
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http://diariesofanadulterer.blogspot.com/search?updated-min=2005-01-01T00:00:00%2B03:00&updated-max=2006-01-01T00:00:00%2B03:00&max-results=11
5yrs worth of blog...........it will be interesting to see how these 2 work out in the end??????????? xxxxxxxxxxx
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How do you know he's MLC? I think she was obviously on the prowl, but he was just sex-starved. Having sex twice in a year is kinda sad... So he fell for the first girl who would put on a red dress and give him a bj... But, he's a good writer and it's an interesting story...
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First of all, it is really sick. He tries to say it is not about sex, but it is. I have not read the rest, but if he was that unhappy, leave your wife and kids. Don't play that game with people.
MLC or not, I don't think it is fair to blame your marital problems for your affair. I mean, I could have financial problems, but robbing a bank is not a good solution. The judge may even feel sorry for me, but in the end, he is going to send me to jail.
Just my two cents.
Lisa- twice in a year? Ha. How about none in over two years? Big baby!
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Aw, I don't know if it's only about the sex. His OW does a good job of paying attention to what he says, and doing everything fantastically right.
Blonde hair, red shoes, dropping by the hotel room?
Not sure I believe the story. It sounds like a made-up fantasy.
I know part of the MLC script is to throw the LBS under the bus. For LBS's who are wives, we "never" had sex with the H. Of course, they were doting and exciting men that an ordinary woman wouldn't be able to keep her hands off of, looking good, smelling good, always peeing directly into the toilet they just scrubbed, always getting all sorts of stuff done around the house before all the nagging would start, never laying around playing video games--why the wife never had to lift a finger but refused to have sex with him.
*cough!*bull$h!te!*cough!*
Anywho, I'm not buying this guy's story. I think it's made up.
If it's true, and his wife really only had sex with him twice a year? That's not cool, and I don't think a man should have to put up with that, either.
Isn't he sort of stuck, though? He's just supposed to leave her and his kids? Some men are just desperately unhappy trying to do the right thing and I do believe there are wives who are cruel or otherwise really miserable to be married to. What's a good guy supposed to do?
I'm not excusing the behavior. But I can see it happening. I have friends who admit to me they never have sex with their husbands. Ever! That's not right.
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Sorry to chime in on the sex...or lack thereof. My first marriage...before we were married we were like rabbits. After we were married I can count on 1 hand (not fully on 2 hands) the number of times we had sex in 3 years. So I can't say "never" but you might as well say it. And my XW dumped/divorced me. Haven't read the blog all the way through, but my current marriage/wife/MLCer...not the same...sex is the complete opposite as it always has been.
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Hi lisa i didn't say it was MLC i said ?? i was looking at the ages of both these people......o/w 35 and the man was 40 both married...........both getting a divorced.....i also read where the wife just gave him the Divorce no arguments :o :o :o i wondered if she was a LBS already on one of these sites......i don’t care who you are when a man drops the bomb its a shock and you want answers.....the wife just went ahead with it wanting assets etc sorting out................. and i do believe for some men they think sex is love .........shes meeting one of his needs and it may be the teenager in him that thinks sex for him equates to love mmmmmmmmmmm i don’t know but i will see how it all unfolds xxxxxxxx
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I hope I didn't sound argumentative, I just always wonder if other people can tell MLC--since I still question every day. I agree with SOIC, though, that it reads like a fantasy--a screenwriter or novelist experimenting on a memoir-like blog... OW is perfect, and the wife is so "NOT" anything, not even really portrayed as a person...
And it's sad really, he had to have an affair after 23 years of marriage before he could have sex three times in one night--that's sad. I have sympathy for a man that spent that long in a marriage with no oral or non-missionary sex. And it may have taken him a long time to realize what he got himself into. AND he tried to get her to open up, but she wouldn't. She had to know she was lucky to have kept him for 23 years. Love, sex, marriage, it's all tough stuff. And clearly, he was cheated.
Not to say that he handled it the right way--but I think he was wrestling with his loyalty. He didn't want to be the kind of man who would ditch his family for sex, but when it dropped in his lap... That's why openness and honesty are so important. And I do wonder how any couple wedded to the idea of waiting until marriage deals with it when they realize that sexually they are not on the same page. I do think sex is important--and this is a very compelling read.
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The blog referred to is mine. (I found my way here after I looked into the spike in people reading my blog)
I don't know where to start really. Six and a bit years into our relationship, and having just celebrated our first wedding anniversary, and I still don't know what to tell you all!
I suppose I'd like to tell you that I'm sorry for all the pain we caused people. Some of you (maybe the majority?) will choose not to believe that. That doesn't mean it isn't true.
So working my way down from the top:
LisaLives: I don't know how to react to the description of my wife and mother of our wonderful daughter as "on the prowl". Perhaps I'll just ignore it. I didn't fall for the first girl who "would put on a red dress and give me a BJ". I fell for a fabulous intelligent woman and eventually I concluded I couldn't live without her. I still feel like that about her.
readytofixmyselffirst: I would say I'm sorry you find my story "sick" but I'm not sorry. As you say you haven't even read my blog so how on earth can you say it is only about sex? It wasn't. It isn't. It never was.
StartingOverInCali: It isn't made up (although there are a few personal details removed). And I wasn't always doting, exciting, looking good (although I hope I was always smelling good!), cleaning the toilet immediately after peeing, and I was always crap at housework. I also worked far too hard.
With Gods Help!: I was 40 and Anna was 32 (not 35 as you wrote). Perhaps it wasn't a shock to my ex-wife because we'd already lived more-or-less separate lives for several years. I don't understand the reference to assets but let me assure you my ex-wife left with her fair share of all our assets. And sex isn't love. I know the difference.
LisaLives: Totally confused by this idea that it's a fantasy. I won't say what I do for a living but I am not (and have no interest in being) a screenwriter or novelist.
I'm not proud of what we both did. But that is very different to saying that I wouldn't do the same things again. I would. I love her.
If you have questions I might answer them so feel free to ask. I'd also like to thank you all for not leaving abusive comments on my blog. I try to leave all the comments there but the really unpleasant ones I have to remove.
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Hi wkramer sorry i must have read 35 somewhere and assumed that was her age (32 still fits the criteria for a MLC).......... and as for the assets i didn’t mean anything by that what i meant was your wife just went ahead sorting things out.......if you read anyone’s story on here you will see how other spouses reacted to there bomb-drop..........many do not do that unless they’ve seen the signs and found a site.......where they are advised to let the spouse go........this site does not advocate this but many others do...........reading your blog you seem to fit the bill for MLC.......age, younger woman. sex. etc so can you see how this can be seen also.............it will be interesting to see what happens later.........can i ask what does marriage mean to you...............do you believe in GOD,,,,,im not asking to have a go im just curious ........do you ever feel guilty for cheating on your ex-wife..........do you feel GOD accepts adultery .........do you believe in KARMA .......xxxxxxx
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WKramer...
I have a question for you out of curiosity... well.. maybe even a couple of questions, and like I say to my husband, you don't have to answer out loud.. I just want to ask them as they may be things you haven't thought of, and for the record, I'm not trying to "teach a lesson" or whatever... just asking...
It could be that you never experience feelings of drudgery and sameness with your newer wife, but if you do, or if there is unimagined tragedy in your life that causes extreme stress, do you think you will bail on the marriage with her, or are there any lessons learned from regret from the cheating on your first wife? The reason I ask is... I cheated on my first husband with my second husband.... yep.... and I justified it with "it's fate, it's not sexual yet... just emotional cheating.... the first marriage was an unfortunate mistake, yada, yada..." but I now feel very differently... BECAUSE IT HAPPENED TO ME and my kids. And while I feel it was going to end up this way NO MATTER WHAT, I also believe that my current husband and I are together SPECIFICALLY to learn how devastating cheating is to ALL involved.. including the cheater. In fact, I feel VERY strongly about my own lack of character and the reasons for it.. much like an alcoholic drinks to avoid FOO issues or whatever.... I was not a serial cheater. I had my standards, LOL!! BUT, I "followed my heart" thinking that what someone doesn't know won't hurt them.
My second question is..... have you ever thought how you would feel or react if your current wife "fell in love" with someone else? What if you aren't always meeting her needs? What if she hits midlife and "issues" come up for her and her coping skills are to RUN into the arms of another "more perfect" man? What if she woke up one morning and told you she wasn't happy and it was all your fault and she had met someone else.... what if she told you it's NOT your fault... that she "didn't MEAN for it to happen... but it did and she can't help her feelings..."? Many people feel that relationships are not MEANT to last a lifetime.. that it is best to enjoy each other until it's not good anymore and then move on to greener pastures. Perhaps you legitimately feel this way? Would you give her a free pass to check out of your marriage in order to "find happiness" or would you QUESTION her sanity at that point? WOuld you wonder "WTH is going on? You never gave me a clue anything was wrong? WHy not tell me and give me a chance? Why throw away a marriage for some FLING???". Again, I'm honestly just curious... and for the record, I haven't read your blog. Your life is yours to live, not mine.
But you did come here and tell us we could ask anything... we who have been devastated by our spouses sudden choices.... KNOWING something just isn't right about the scenario they paint... and seeing WITH OUR OWN EYES after a period of time, that they admit they were LOST in chaos for a( that they sometimes go to great lengths to change to be more like US.....) HOPING it will SOLVE THEIR ISSUES and baggage they're not even aware of.... but discovering they have hooked up with DAMAGED women or men with a lot of "issues" of their own....
So.... I'm just asking you.... a man who doesn't believe Mid-Life had anything to do with his choices, and probably is telling the truth. But, I just wonder if what you are telling us is, you love your wife so much, that the end justifies the means, and you wouldn't change a thing? I know we can't change our past... BUT, we can learn from them.. and in my OWN personal situation, I DO regret my choices... even if it led me to my husband and our children..... many things could have been handled in a more honorable way, so FOR ME, I cannot honestly say the end has justified the means, and I DO love him very much.... the only reason I wouldn't change a thing is because I CAN'T.
Thanks for stopping by... LG
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LG - really good questions and great feedback.
I haven't read the blog....so I cannot yet comment on what is said.
I do think it is pretty brave to post here...especially if you are from the "other side." If the MLCer, or maybe I should say Walk Away Spouse - is open to answering questions - that could be helpful for all. We just need to be non-judgemental - even though, in our situations, it is very difficult NOT to judge.....as we have seen the devastation to ourselves and our children - due to a marital break-up.
I am very curious to see where this goes.
limitless
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MLC or not, I don't think it is fair to blame your marital problems for your affair. I mean, I could have financial problems, but robbing a bank is not a good solution. The judge may even feel sorry for me, but in the end, he is going to send me to jail.
GREAT ANALOGY!
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In all fairness, many people have affairs in order to stay in their marriages... perhaps they are with a spouse who is deeply depressed, or who is stagnant and bringing nothing to the marital table.... maybe both or one party, for whatever reason, is not interested in sex (as opposed to UNABLE to have sex, due to major illness or whatever).
I have known people who had the choice to leave, or to stay in a marriage of convenience..... where there is a commitment to the life and family they've built... not willing to destroy it close to retirement time when it would be financially devastating to both partners... but also unwilling to sacrifice their LIVES. I get that. I still think it is sad.
AND, the truth is, people divorce EVERY DAY and "move on" to new spouses and lives... their kids are grown and "happy" for them..... the don't look back with regret. I certainly don't want to be married to my first husband, though he was a good guy and we got along great!! We truly DID want different things in life..... the problem is.... I "fell in love" with my current husband (infatuation) and was deceitful..... my first husband never knew... but I DID!!! For many years, I justified it with "Well, I could have handled it better, but I didn't do so bad....divorce is messy and at least we didn't have children... we weren't right for each other!" but now I see the bigger picture. I can feel his pain of being DUMPED, without knowing why....
I don't know if WKramer's answers to any of our questions would enlighten us as to our MLCers at all!! And it is not for him to have to defend himself or his LIFE to us..... people do the best they can with the information they've got..... it's HIS life, and if it works for him, then so be it.
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Sorry all if this is a hijack; I have not had a chance to read the blog and so don’t have any questions there…but this thread coincides with a past experience that came to mind recently, so it seems like it might be an appropriate place to share….
When I was in my early twenties I worked in a situation with two other women – one my age (a friend) and one about ten years older (I did not know her well). During my entire employment, the older woman was having an affair and later divorced her husband. Having not yet experienced a partner’s infidelity, I didn’t react with any visceral disgust or emotion to this situation, but even then, I always found it very strange that this woman believed that my friend and I wanted to hear details about this particular aspect of her life. She was a friendly lady, but she seemed to lack social boundaries – or that his how I explained her weird disclosures. Now I see it differently. I think that the need to disclose is part of the affair…it increases the excitement (and perhaps allows the adulterer to rehearse and internalize their justifications)…but ultimately, I think its mainly just a technique for ratcheting up the excitement…She needed us, her unwitting co-workers, as an audience for some strange reason.
I bumped into her a few years ago and she was recently remarried (not to the affair partner, but to another man). I anticipated (actually kind of dreaded) a long conversation to ‘catch up’ on her life but she ironically had almost nothing to say about her new husband. Funny how the marriage doesn’t require an audience, but the affair usually does. Whether one finds their audience in an unwitting and captive co-worker or by publishing an anonymous blog doesn't seem to matter.
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That jogged a memory of mine.
That same thing happens with some people who do extreme outdoor stuff - like the guy who had to cut his arm off - part of the thrill for them is to tell others about it. They don't do it for the experience itself as much as for bragging rights. In that guy's book he had a friend refuse to listen to his stories because that friend was concerned that listening would feed the guy's over the top need for adventure. (Then he cuts his arm off and he tells the world in a book and a movie. Hmm.)
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Interesting... but because WKramer isn't here to defend himself, I'm going to do it. First of all... he shouldn't have to defend himself.... now, I know we are all CURIOUS to the nth degree as to how someone REALLY feels when they are cheating... so come ask me. I'm currently wearing my hair shirt, LOL!!! And I guarantee you, my personal experience doesn't compare to a MLCers.. it would be more in line with a OW.... oblivious to anyone but themselves.... just sayin' and admitting..... :-\
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Hi everyone i have been reading on the Infidelity Forum..............i first looked on this site when Stayed mentioned it awhile back..........after thinking about my sitch and more so with how D21 recently acted.........I decided to dig deep and look at what or how i contributed to how D21 is and also my H........... .thanks LG you gave me much thought ;) ;) ;)......so i decided to do some research and came across this thread from SI http://survivinginfidelity.com/forums.asp?tid=408443 and boy did it open my eyes......a lot of this is and was me :o :o :o :o :o......you need to read the whole thread 3 and a bit pages.....so to understand it better I ordered the book.........just waiting for it to come...........i want to say a big thank-you to stayed for mentioning this site and to Lg for the kick up the Ass lol ...........i will work on this........and if h and I dont R at least I will have a healthier R with someone else xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
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Hi wkramer sorry i must have read 35 somewhere and assumed that was her age (32 still fits the criteria for a MLC).......... and as for the assets i didn’t mean anything by that what i meant was your wife just went ahead sorting things out.......if you read anyone’s story on here you will see how other spouses reacted to there bomb-drop..........many do not do that unless they’ve seen the signs and found a site.......where they are advised to let the spouse go........this site does not advocate this but many others do...........reading your blog you seem to fit the bill for MLC.......age, younger woman. sex. etc so can you see how this can be seen also.............it will be interesting to see what happens later.........can i ask what does marriage mean to you...............do you believe in GOD,,,,,im not asking to have a go im just curious ........do you ever feel guilty for cheating on your ex-wife..........do you feel GOD accepts adultery .........do you believe in KARMA .......xxxxxxx
I'm reasonably sure it wasn't a MLC although perhaps I only understand the joke version of that - buying a sports car, dressing twenty years younger, colouring your hair, etc. I thought very hard and for a very long time before making my decision. I don't think that sounds like a MLC?
By the time I asked my ex-wife for a divorce we were already living on different continents. It wasn't something that we discussed - it just happened. We slowly, over a period of years, drifted apart. I know that in the end it wasn't a shock to her.
Marriage means sharing my life with the woman that I love. It means I made a commitment to her to spend the rest of my life with her.
I don't believe in God or karma.
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WKramer...
I have a question for you out of curiosity... well.. maybe even a couple of questions, and like I say to my husband, you don't have to answer out loud.. I just want to ask them as they may be things you haven't thought of, and for the record, I'm not trying to "teach a lesson" or whatever... just asking...
It could be that you never experience feelings of drudgery and sameness with your newer wife, but if you do, or if there is unimagined tragedy in your life that causes extreme stress, do you think you will bail on the marriage with her, or are there any lessons learned from regret from the cheating on your first wife? The reason I ask is... I cheated on my first husband with my second husband.... yep.... and I justified it with "it's fate, it's not sexual yet... just emotional cheating.... the first marriage was an unfortunate mistake, yada, yada..." but I now feel very differently... BECAUSE IT HAPPENED TO ME and my kids. And while I feel it was going to end up this way NO MATTER WHAT, I also believe that my current husband and I are together SPECIFICALLY to learn how devastating cheating is to ALL involved.. including the cheater. In fact, I feel VERY strongly about my own lack of character and the reasons for it.. much like an alcoholic drinks to avoid FOO issues or whatever.... I was not a serial cheater. I had my standards, LOL!! BUT, I "followed my heart" thinking that what someone doesn't know won't hurt them.
My second question is..... have you ever thought how you would feel or react if your current wife "fell in love" with someone else? What if you aren't always meeting her needs? What if she hits midlife and "issues" come up for her and her coping skills are to RUN into the arms of another "more perfect" man? What if she woke up one morning and told you she wasn't happy and it was all your fault and she had met someone else.... what if she told you it's NOT your fault... that she "didn't MEAN for it to happen... but it did and she can't help her feelings..."? Many people feel that relationships are not MEANT to last a lifetime.. that it is best to enjoy each other until it's not good anymore and then move on to greener pastures. Perhaps you legitimately feel this way? Would you give her a free pass to check out of your marriage in order to "find happiness" or would you QUESTION her sanity at that point? WOuld you wonder "WTH is going on? You never gave me a clue anything was wrong? WHy not tell me and give me a chance? Why throw away a marriage for some FLING???". Again, I'm honestly just curious... and for the record, I haven't read your blog. Your life is yours to live, not mine.
But you did come here and tell us we could ask anything... we who have been devastated by our spouses sudden choices.... KNOWING something just isn't right about the scenario they paint... and seeing WITH OUR OWN EYES after a period of time, that they admit they were LOST in chaos for a( that they sometimes go to great lengths to change to be more like US.....) HOPING it will SOLVE THEIR ISSUES and baggage they're not even aware of.... but discovering they have hooked up with DAMAGED women or men with a lot of "issues" of their own....
So.... I'm just asking you.... a man who doesn't believe Mid-Life had anything to do with his choices, and probably is telling the truth. But, I just wonder if what you are telling us is, you love your wife so much, that the end justifies the means, and you wouldn't change a thing? I know we can't change our past... BUT, we can learn from them.. and in my OWN personal situation, I DO regret my choices... even if it led me to my husband and our children..... many things could have been handled in a more honorable way, so FOR ME, I cannot honestly say the end has justified the means, and I DO love him very much.... the only reason I wouldn't change a thing is because I CAN'T.
Thanks for stopping by... LG
What is the point of asking questions that your husband doesn't have to answer out loud? Isn't the point of asking questions to get an answer?
What lessons did I learn? Do stuff together. Be actively involved in each others lives. Walk places together, eat together, discuss the news together, argue about politics together, laugh together, cry together. Be a team. I think doing these things is a good safeguard against drudgery.
An unimagined tragedy is obviously a more difficult question to answer. Fortunately it isn't one we've had to confront. I suppose the closest we've ever come to having to confront it was when genetic tests were carried out on our unborn daughter. We cried together and told each other how scared we were. We were honest with each other and that made us stronger together.
I can't imagine the circumstances in your second question so I don't know how to answer it. Our entire relationship is based on honesty (I don't need the irony of this explaining to me!). Problems are not allowed to fester and issues get raised, discussed, and dealt with. Because of this I don't think it would be possible for our relationship to deteriorate to the state you describe.
Did the end justify the means? Yes. Emphatically yes.
Would I change anything? Yes but partly for selfish reasons. Having to leave the country you lived in for years because of fear of arrest for adultery wasn't the easiest experience in the world! More seriously I regret that people that got hurt by our actions but I don't know what we could have changed to prevent that.
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LG - really good questions and great feedback.
I haven't read the blog....so I cannot yet comment on what is said.
I do think it is pretty brave to post here...especially if you are from the "other side." If the MLCer, or maybe I should say Walk Away Spouse - is open to answering questions - that could be helpful for all. We just need to be non-judgemental - even though, in our situations, it is very difficult NOT to judge.....as we have seen the devastation to ourselves and our children - due to a marital break-up.
I am very curious to see where this goes.
limitless
It's not really brave is it? If abuse starts to flow I just won't come back!
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Sorry all if this is a hijack; I have not had a chance to read the blog and so don’t have any questions there…but this thread coincides with a past experience that came to mind recently, so it seems like it might be an appropriate place to share….
When I was in my early twenties I worked in a situation with two other women – one my age (a friend) and one about ten years older (I did not know her well). During my entire employment, the older woman was having an affair and later divorced her husband. Having not yet experienced a partner’s infidelity, I didn’t react with any visceral disgust or emotion to this situation, but even then, I always found it very strange that this woman believed that my friend and I wanted to hear details about this particular aspect of her life. She was a friendly lady, but she seemed to lack social boundaries – or that his how I explained her weird disclosures. Now I see it differently. I think that the need to disclose is part of the affair…it increases the excitement (and perhaps allows the adulterer to rehearse and internalize their justifications)…but ultimately, I think its mainly just a technique for ratcheting up the excitement…She needed us, her unwitting co-workers, as an audience for some strange reason.
I bumped into her a few years ago and she was recently remarried (not to the affair partner, but to another man). I anticipated (actually kind of dreaded) a long conversation to ‘catch up’ on her life but she ironically had almost nothing to say about her new husband. Funny how the marriage doesn’t require an audience, but the affair usually does. Whether one finds their audience in an unwitting and captive co-worker or by publishing an anonymous blog doesn't seem to matter.
So this woman was having an affair and wanted to tell people about it? Weird.
I had an affair over a several year period. When our co-workers and friends finally found out the best description of their reaction would be stunned.
We worked hard at disguising from everbody what was going on between us. (In our case it was partly to keep our employer out of our business).
I honestly don't know anybody who has ever tried to tell me the details of their extramarital affair. I don't think I'd know what to say!
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Thank you, wkramer, for stopping by again. I have to say, none of your replies are surprising to me. In fact, it's exactly what I suspected that you might say. I hope that no one tries to convince you that you are wrong. I don't believe that such an excercise would be fruitful. Anyway, I wish upon you all that you have earned.
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Ok so you wouldn't discuss having an affair with anyone but you blogged about it.
Erm ok.
Do you see the irony in that?
Anyway I haven't read read your blog aside a couple of posts but to be honest I don't think I can stomach it.
I can not be prepared to read how it all happened. And by the way doing what you are doing with your wife won't affair proof it. I used to do all those things with Dearheart. I was BD'd when our fifth girl was 6 months old. We were going places together, snuggling and the like. We discussed things and made plans. And it didn't stop it.
Bet her husband never saw it coming and was blindsided. Maybe your ex wife saw it coming and just withdrew. I don't know and neither do you as they may say one thing to your face but feel something totally different.
Maybe one day I can read. But just looking at those posts I did made me angry at how thoughtless everyone was. You may not have chosen to be attracted to her but everything else was choice, was you not caring enough. Different continents or not. You didn't care enough to try.
I am not going to change you. All I say is good luck because as far as I can tell from your last post. You have cheated more than once which makes you not just an adulterer but a serial philanderer who like excitement.
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Oh, yes. I love a parade. Does anyone have any peanut butter? I love lamp posts this time of year. Lunarscapes!
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Here´s my question: Why lie about it if your end goal is to ditch your primary partner? What purpose do the lies serve?
Thanks for taking the time to answer.
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Here´s my question: Why lie about it if your end goal is to ditch your primary partner? What purpose do the lies serve?
Thanks for taking the time to answer.
My apologies but I'm concerned I don't really understand the question. If what I've written below doesn't answer your question then I'd be happy to try again if you rephrase it.
My original end goal wasn't to ditch my primary partner. I didn't think of it in terms anywhere near as deep as that.
Later, after I'd fallen in love (and admitted it to myself which took quite some time), I lied to prevent the implosion of my daughters home life. I wanted to stay in their lives until they left for university.
(In truth I never really had to lie. My ex-wife never asked any questions that required lies)
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Hi sorry i just have to comment on the line below.im not having ago im trying to understand the mind of a person having an affair.........
(In truth I never really had to lie. My ex-wife never asked any questions that required lies)
You never really had to lie to your ex-wife.....so did your ex-wife know when you were going to work you were meeting o/w ..........just because she didn’t ask.... do you see yourself as not lying to your ex-wife about your whereabouts when supposedly at work........you did not really lie is that not lies enough when you were meeting your now wife behind her back or do you not see that as lies.........OR are they only lies when confronted........do you believe what the heart don’t see the heart wont grieve............Thanks for your answers.......
P.S. as your ex-wife seen your blog........would she come to a place like this to tell her side and maybe get some answers or as she now healed .......or don’t you ask.................
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Forgive me if I missed this wkramer but my question is: If your W only wants to have sex twice a year and you are not happy with this situation why didn't you just separate from her, tell her why, and get a divorce first? Why all the deception? It just baffles me why go through all the lying and sneaking around....
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I wanted to chime in here as well..
WK....I only read a small portion of your blog as I dont see any reason to go further into your personal life.
I wont judge you for your choices that you have made...I have been there too. I am no saint.
I think what your doing here is somewhat helpful to me...as I have always wondered what a man thinks when he has cheated because my H has had several PAs in our 25 years together and I often wondered what makes someone do that to their spouse one that they say they love....Did you tell your wife that you loved her while you were having this affair?
Im not going to judge anything....in fact no one should. The only one anyone answers to in the end is God.
SO I wont even try.
I would like to pick your brain though....:D If you dont mind?
Syn
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Hi sorry i just have to comment on the line below.im not having ago im trying to understand the mind of a person having an affair.........
(In truth I never really had to lie. My ex-wife never asked any questions that required lies)
You never really had to lie to your ex-wife.....so did your ex-wife know when you were going to work you were meeting o/w ..........just because she didn’t ask.... do you see yourself as not lying to your ex-wife about your whereabouts when supposedly at work........you did not really lie is that not lies enough when you were meeting your now wife behind her back or do you not see that as lies.........OR are they only lies when confronted........do you believe what the heart don’t see the heart wont grieve............Thanks for your answers.......
P.S. as your ex-wife seen your blog........would she come to a place like this to tell her side and maybe get some answers or as she now healed .......or don’t you ask.................
I'm not really qualified to argue philosophy or semantics.
I never really had to lie. But what I did do was deceive her.
Perhaps this is splitting hairs too thinly?
My ex-wife hasn't read my blog. She wouldn't come here because she has no need to. I don't think the wounds were ever sufficiently painful to require healing.
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Forgive me if I missed this wkramer but my question is: If your W only wants to have sex twice a year and you are not happy with this situation why didn't you just separate from her, tell her why, and get a divorce first? Why all the deception? It just baffles me why go through all the lying and sneaking around....
Well first of all because I didn't begin my affair with the intention of falling in love and needing a divorce. (I'm sorry of you think that's bad but I might as well be honest).
But mainly because of our circumstances. We lived in the United Arab Emirates where I had a work permit and, because I was employed there, my wife and daughters had residence permits.
If we'd gotten divorced whilst our daughters were still in school my wife and daughters would have had to leave the country. I didn't want that to happen. I wanted my daughters to grow up with two parents around.
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I wanted to chime in here as well..
WK....I only read a small portion of your blog as I dont see any reason to go further into your personal life.
I wont judge you for your choices that you have made...I have been there too. I am no saint.
I think what your doing here is somewhat helpful to me...as I have always wondered what a man thinks when he has cheated because my H has had several PAs in our 25 years together and I often wondered what makes someone do that to their spouse one that they say they love....Did you tell your wife that you loved her while you were having this affair?
Im not going to judge anything....in fact no one should. The only one anyone answers to in the end is God.
SO I wont even try.
I would like to pick your brain though....:D If you dont mind?
Syn
Simple: I didn't love her.
We hadn't told each other we loved one another for probably a couple of years before I started having an affair.
I won't be answering to God for the simple reason that I don't believe there is any such thing.
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So I understand that you stayed for your kids....alot of people do that... MY parents did that as well...my father also married his OW...after having many PA's on my mom...again...no judgement from me...and your entitled to have faith or no faith
that is your right as well...
Did you ever consider talking to your wife about staying for the kids and nothing more? or did you?
I am just wondering if there was just no concern for either of you? did you guys ever sit down and discuss
your issues with eachother...or did you feel like there was no point? no reason as you didnt care?
Hope this makes sense?
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wkramer, unlike the others I did read your blog. I find it very similar to the correspondence by husband exchanged with his OW1. Infatuation, fantasy, trips together, the tension of having to lie to the wife, the not knowing very well what you are doing even if you think a lot about the situation.
The blog is not just about sex but there seems to be, at least in the earlier times, an emphasis on sex. For example, you wrote “It's a year today since Anna and I first slept together. Wow.” Not “It’s a year today since Anna and I first meet.”.
If you really loved Anna, and considering you have been breaking the law for years in Dubai, did you ever stop to think what would happen if you got caught? No, you were not doing it in the beach but, among other things, you have spend the night in her bed in the house she shared with her husband.
Did you ever think that you were spending time, giving attention and affection to Anna rather than putting it into your marriage? By reading you blog I do not get the impression you and your wife lead separated lives. You travelled a lot for work reasons. Still, the blog only starts when you become involved with Anna. Since it happened, obviously, everything changed and you having to lead a double life made an impact, even if imperceptible, on your marriage.
Was it worthy not to had dinner with your father because you were with Anna? Granted, you could had not guessed he was going to have an heart attack and die, still, you could had went and have dinner with your dad without Anna, couldn’t you? Why didn’t you did it? Afraid that Anna may not be happy with the situation? I’m certain she would have not been but I think it was one of those things that come with the territory.
I’m truly sorry if it upsets you but everything in your blog, even the “This isn’t the story of a mid-life crisis. This is the story of a crisis that has lasted all of my adult life. Well, all my adult life apart from the last 6 hours or so.” screams mid life crisis in bold flashy letters.
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I've read some as well; of course we only have your perspective on it, wkramer, not anyone else's. We have to take your word for it that your wife wouldn't need a place like this, and all that.
Not all affairs are MLC; neither can we discount that, however. It is interesting to hear the perspective from the other side, as it were.
What strikes me is the fact that not loving your wife is used for justification for everything else. And the absolute insistence on putting yourself first. Yes, you wanted your daughters to grow up with two parents around, but what about after they left school? Do they not still need parents? You have made the conscious decision that for your daughters, the concept "parents" will always be split, so that every occasion forever in the future will be affected. And they will always be seeing you putting the time and energy into your new family, which is a constant reminder of what you wouldn't do for them.
Please don't think that I'm saying that they don't/won't have a good relationship with you; however, it always will be the formative experience for them. You were putting energy into an adulterous affair while you were living at home with them; even if they didn't know it consciously they will have felt the effects of not having that attention from you.
It is a myth that parents being happy is all that matters; long-term studies that have been recently published show that the effects of split families follow children throughout their lives.
A piece in your blog that I wanted to comment on was where you say that your ex-MIL should see you now, so involved with the baby. You could always have made the choice to be more involved with your daughters, however its seems that not loving your wife was also justification for not giving more to your family.
And AnneJ is right, by giving time, attention and affection to someone other than your wife and daughters your marriage did suffer. It cannot be otherwise. But turning it around and saying that it's OK because you didn't love her (or the marriage wasn't good or she wasn't right in some way) puts the blame and responsibility elsewhere, and keeps you from examining and changing your own behaviour.
Love is an active verb, a choice. A choice of the heart and mind, of the mind because the heart doesn't always feel like loving.
It is interesting to read that for you, the fact that others got hurt is a regrettable thing, however fully justifiable because for you everything's wonderful. That your personal happiness is more important than anyone else's.
I think that may be the driving force behind many adulterers, whether MLC or not, that ultimate selfishness. Again, it is interesting to hear it from that side.
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Did you ever consider talking to your wife about staying for the kids and nothing more? or did you?
I am just wondering if there was just no concern for either of you? did you guys ever sit down and discuss
your issues with eachother...or did you feel like there was no point? no reason as you didnt care?
I knew there were problems in my marriage for a long time. I wanted to "fix" those problems.
I asked my ex-wife repeatedly if she would come to counselling with me but she didn't want to. I realise now, although I didn't then, that going by myself could have been a viable option.
Eventually I concluded that there wasn't any point in discussing these things and towards the end of our marriage I simply didn't care.
I suppose in hindsight it is obvious that we were never very good at communicating with each other.
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The blog is not just about sex but there seems to be, at least in the earlier times, an emphasis on sex. For example, you wrote “It's a year today since Anna and I first slept together. Wow.” Not “It’s a year today since Anna and I first meet.”.
Perhaps the earlier times do concentrate on sex but, and I apologise for being so blunt, when you can count on two hands the number of times you've had sex in the last several years it is a novelty to suddenly be having a lot more of it.
I didn't write "...a year today since we first met" because I'd met her before.
If you really loved Anna, and considering you have been breaking the law for years in Dubai, did you ever stop to think what would happen if you got caught?
No not really. It was a very minor concern and not something that ever really troubled me. The authorities in the UAE turn a blind eye to the behavior of western expatriates so I simply didn't believe we'd ever get caught.
Did you ever think that you were spending time, giving attention and affection to Anna rather than putting it into your marriage?
No I didn't ever think that. I'd tried to invest time in my marriage earlier in my life and got nothing in return for that investment.
By reading you blog I do not get the impression you and your wife lead separated lives.
We had two school age children together so we didn't leave entirely separate lives. Our daughters were the only real overlap in our lives though.
Was it worthy not to had dinner with your father because you were with Anna? Granted, you could had not guessed he was going to have an heart attack and die, still, you could had went and have dinner with your dad without Anna, couldn’t you? Why didn’t you did it? Afraid that Anna may not be happy with the situation? I’m certain she would have not been but I think it was one of those things that come with the territory.
Anna wouldn't have had a problem with me going for dinner with my dad by myself.
I wish I'd gone out for dinner with my dad one last time - of course I do. But I didn't and nothing I ever do will change that.
I don't blame Anna or myself for the fact that I didn't. Some times when I was in London I had to work late so I didn't see him. If he'd died on one of those occasions would it be appropriate to blame my employer? Other times he wouldn't be available because he had other arrangements with his friends. If he'd died on one of those occasions would it be appropriate to blame his friends?
I’m truly sorry if it upsets you but everything in your blog, even the “This isn’t the story of a mid-life crisis. This is the story of a crisis that has lasted all of my adult life. Well, all my adult life apart from the last 6 hours or so.” screams mid life crisis in bold flashy letters.
Well I think you're wrong but reasonable people can agree to disagree.
Let me ask you this though. Even if it was a MLC does that make the feelings any less real? Does it mean that the love I feel for my wife is somehow different to other people's love?
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wkramer, thanks for asking my questions.
I figured you have met Anna before. But it really was a very emphatic cheer up for anniversary of the first time you sleep together. Ok, I can get that if sex is a scarce thing in a marriage it can be something one finds a novelty and an exciting one.
If you were getting nothing in return in your marriage earlier in life why did you not break it? Daughters or no daughters, no one stays in a marriage for over 20 years if they are getting nothing. I know several people, with children, that ended their marriages, sometimes when the kids were very small, because things were not working for them. Clean break, not moving out when, finally, there is someone else on the side.
Reading your blog the idea that passes is that your daughters were not the only reason yours and your first wife lives overlapped but that may be just may impression from the reading.
No, it would had not be appropriated to blame your employer. No it would be appropriated to blame Anna. If there was anyone to blame it would had been yourself. The difference between not having dinner with your dad because you were working late and because you did not want to turn up with Anna is that the first was a genuine reason. You were working. The second was an excuse for an action, being with Anna, that you knew was not very correct.
Yes, reasonable people can agree to disagree.
If it is MLC the feelings you feel during it are real in the sense that, to you, they feel real, they feel like the real thing. But if it is MLC, when the crisis is over, you will find yourself asking what happened to you. If it is MLC it not love, I’m talking of real love, that you feel for your wife. It is infatuation, excitement and trepidation, all induced by the chemical “war” that is going on inside your brain.
Do you know that feeling we all have had when we were teens and everything looked so real and we were so certain, just to discover, in our early twenties, that, after all, it was not the real thing? MLC “love” is like that.
Even if it is not MLC, a relationship started with adultery and deceit does not start on a very solid or good ground. All the anxieties and anguish that you wrote about in the blog, for the duration of the affair, are likely to come back again after the initial time together. You and Anna are still together, on the open, for a very short time. All the excitement of those times is still present, even if you do not realise it.
Of course that, like in everything, there are always exceptions.
May I ask what have you done if Anna, or someone else, had not turned up? Had you stayed in your first marriage?
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I think what your doing here is somewhat helpful to me...as I have always wondered what a man thinks when he has cheated because my H has had several PAs in our 25 years together and I often wondered what makes someone do that to their spouse one that they say they love...
Ladies, there is a difference between being a man and being a male. Just because some guy presumably has testicles and is over 18 years old, that doesn't make him a man. Learning this difference will help YOU understand your situation a whole lot better.
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Let's just say that this guy is in MLC. Why are you guys voluntarily engaging an MLCr? Don't you have enough of that in your lives already?
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Doc,
I guess, being on the other side, LBS' want to try to understand what and how the MLCer is thinking. Truth is...I doubt that they even know.
I guess it is just morbid interest.
L
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Doc,
I guess, being on the other side, LBS' want to try to understand what and how the MLCer is thinking. Truth is...I doubt that they even know.
I guess it is just morbid interest.
L
Let me save you the trouble. They are thinking about themselves.
You don't need more of that misery in your life. Let it go.
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Presumably when you first met your wife, and you felt that she was "the one", there was romance and sex and communication. That can break down over time, ESPECIALLY after having children.
My H asked me to go to marriage counselling a couple of times and I refused. But he ONLY asked once he was already involved with OW and once he had denied my accusation that he was having an affair, AND he told me I needed marriage counselling because I had problems. Turned out I did. They were him. He was lying, he was spending our income on another woman, he was treating me like a skivvy and wining and dining her. We had 2 children too. He has left them with me, almost entirely, so that he can enjoy sexiversaries too. He was lying to me, he was twisting arguments to justify his betrayal to himself (and probably to her - it is always great to turn to your affair partner and say "we had ANOTHER blow out argument last night, she won't go to counselling and she doesn't understand me like you do, now get your kit off and SHOW me how you love me".
I am sorry, but there is no honest justification for having relations, emotional or physical, with another person when you have made promises to a committed relationship. You ALWAYS have the option of leaving the relationship. Having a break, shocking your wife into working on it for the sake of the children, giving her some choices. Unless you are a coward with no-self esteem, who can only make choices about your own life with someone providing some ego-stroking and validation so that you don't feel so bad - poor you. The truth is an affair is the most destructive way to leave a long-term relationship and marriage. It damages the children ( you have effectively told them that their mother (half of their DNA, remember) is not only not "good enough", but she is also deserves a high level of anguish and pain. You have given your children the message that half of their identity was worthless to you, their father. And these messages go deep into the psyche of children, just in case you think they don't.
I get sick of people saying divorce happens all the time. Yes. And death happens even more frequently. That does not mean that we expect people to get used to it and for it to hurt less when it happens in THEIR own family.
I feel sorry for you, honestly. I would be very interested to know if you think you had any imperfections (real ones, not ones designed to sound like good traits in disguise) in your marriage?
Anyway, sooner or later the sex will slow down with Anna. It may not be for another year, or five, but it will. She will become more demanding, she will start to find things you do annoying. Your relationship will hit a point of age, where it does not involve constant gratification. You will start to wonder if she is not a bit annoying in some ways. But never mind, there are always more willing women who will take on the opportunity to win you away from her... unless she gets bored first and leaves...
In the meantime, what of history, what of friendship, what of loving the same wonderful children in a way an affair partner never can, what of finishing each other's sentences, what of acceptance of one's self and others, what of acts of service that are NOT about getting anything in return (sex, gifts...)
We all loved the new part of the relationship, the constant sex, the constant compliments, the excitement of discovering another person's interesting life. But all things end, including the initial highs of a relationship. The middles are hard (children, jobs, lack of free time) for EVERYONE in a relationship. But if you can weather those things, what about what may be found on the other side? I guess, you may never know...
I would be very interested to hear if you and Anna are still as happily sexing away in 10 years. Good luck with that...
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Marriage means sharing my life with the woman that I love. It means I made a commitment to her to spend the rest of my life with her.
But you've revealed what "commitment" means to you. It means you're committed, long as you're getting what you feel you deserve from the other party involved. It means "As long as you both shall 'love'", rather than as long as you both shall live. Pointless, really.
I'm not entirely certain why you bothered with marriage, being atheistic, other than for a tax break or some other pragmatic reason. Was the phrase "forsaking all others" in the vows of the 1st wedding? Was the phrase "I really mean it this time" in the second one?
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Doc,
I guess, being on the other side, LBS' want to try to understand what and how the MLCer is thinking. Truth is...I doubt that they even know.
I guess it is just morbid interest.
L
Let me save you the trouble. They are thinking about themselves.
You don't need more of that misery in your life. Let it go.
Doc,
You are so very correct in this.
L
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Ladies, there is a difference between being a man and being a male. Just because some guy presumably has testicles and is over 18 years old, that doesn't make him a man. Learning this difference will help YOU understand your situation a whole lot better.
doc - You've given us all something to ponder here ......
The truth is an affair is the most destructive way to leave a long-term relationship and marriage. It damages the children ( you have effectively told them that their mother (half of their DNA, remember) is not only not "good enough", but she is also deserves a high level of anguish and pain. You have given your children the message that half of their identity was worthless to you, their father. And these messages go deep into the psyche of children, just in case you think they don't.
I get sick of people saying divorce happens all the time. Yes. And death happens even more frequently. That does not mean that we expect people to get used to it and for it to hurt less when it happens in THEIR own family.
That's it in a nutshell S and D
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The truth is an affair is the most destructive way to leave a long-term relationship and marriage. It damages the children ( you have effectively told them that their mother (half of their DNA, remember) is not only not "good enough", but she is also deserves a high level of anguish and pain. You have given your children the message that half of their identity was worthless to you, their father. And these messages go deep into the psyche of children, just in case you think they don't.
I get sick of people saying divorce happens all the time. Yes. And death happens even more frequently. That does not mean that we expect people to get used to it and for it to hurt less when it happens in THEIR own family.
That's it in a nutshell S and D
I second that. Well said S&D.
honour
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Well said, S&D!!
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........ He was lying to me, he was twisting arguments to justify his betrayal to himself (and probably to her - it is always great to turn to your affair partner and say "we had ANOTHER blow out argument last night, she won't go to counselling and she doesn't understand me like you do, now get your kit off and SHOW me how you love me".
I am sorry, but there is no honest justification for having relations, emotional or physical, with another person when you have made promises to a committed relationship. You ALWAYS have the option of leaving the relationship. Having a break, shocking your wife into working on it for the sake of the children, giving her some choices. Unless you are a coward with no-self esteem, who can only make choices about your own life with someone providing some ego-stroking and validation so that you don't feel so bad - poor you. The truth is an affair is the most destructive way to leave a long-term relationship and marriage. It damages the children ( you have effectively told them that their mother (half of their DNA, remember) is not only not "good enough", but she is also deserves a high level of anguish and pain. You have given your children the message that half of their identity was worthless to you, their father. And these messages go deep into the psyche of children, just in case you think they don't.
I get sick of people saying divorce happens all the time. Yes. And death happens even more frequently. That does not mean that we expect people to get used to it and for it to hurt less when it happens in THEIR own family.
In the meantime, what of history, what of friendship, what of loving the same wonderful children in a way an affair partner never can, what of finishing each other's sentences, what of acceptance of one's self and others, what of acts of service that are NOT about getting anything in return (sex, gifts...)
We all loved the new part of the relationship, the constant sex, the constant compliments, the excitement of discovering another person's interesting life. But all things end, including the initial highs of a relationship. The middles are hard (children, jobs, lack of free time) for EVERYONE in a relationship. But if you can weather those things, what about what may be found on the other side? I guess, you may never know...
I would be very interested to hear if you and Anna are still as happily sexing away in 10 years. Good luck with that...
HEAR HEAR!!!!!!!!! WELL SAID!!!!!!
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I agree that there are honorable options: discussing problems, if that doesnt work counseling, if that doesnt work separation for a trial period, and then if that doesnt work divorce. I dont feel there is any justification to engage in an affair without having run through a normal rational process of trying to work things out.
At one point 9 years ago me and my H were having troubles. We tried discussing them, that didnt work. I suggested counseling he refused. So we separated and then he agreed to counseling, and eventually after less than a year we mutually decided to move back in together. I never considered an affair. During the whole period we only spoke highly of each other to the children. No insults nothing of that nature.
It boggles the mind why anyone would want to handle things any other way.
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And they will always be seeing you putting the time and energy into your new family, which is a constant reminder of what you wouldn't do for them.
I DID do it for them.
A piece in your blog that I wanted to comment on was where you say that your ex-MIL should see you now, so involved with the baby. You could always have made the choice to be more involved with your daughters, however its seems that not loving your wife was also justification for not giving more to your family.
I don't think this is fair.
Firstly the reference to my ex-MIL relates to the fact that I really did not like that woman and she was forever poking her nose into things she should have left alone. Our parenting skills (or in her opinion our lack of them) was one.
Secondly parenting styles changed in the 20 or so years between my children.
And finally working patterns changed in those 20 years and even if they hadn't there is a big difference to how you can manage your time to be with your children as a junior employee compared to later in life when you are more senior.
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If you were getting nothing in return in your marriage earlier in life why did you not break it?
I didn't want to live on a different continent to my daughters.
If it is MLC the feelings you feel during it are real in the sense that, to you, they feel real, they feel like the real thing. But if it is MLC, when the crisis is over, you will find yourself asking what happened to you. If it is MLC it not love, I’m talking of real love, that you feel for your wife. It is infatuation, excitement and trepidation, all induced by the chemical “war” that is going on inside your brain.
Do you know that feeling we all have had when we were teens and everything looked so real and we were so certain, just to discover, in our early twenties, that, after all, it was not the real thing? MLC “love” is like that.
I'm as close to certain as it's possible to be that I'm not having (or had in the past) a MLC.
Even if it is not MLC, a relationship started with adultery and deceit does not start on a very solid or good ground. All the anxieties and anguish that you wrote about in the blog, for the duration of the affair, are likely to come back again after the initial time together. You and Anna are still together, on the open, for a very short time. All the excitement of those times is still present, even if you do not realise it.
I didn't enjoy the "excitement" of it. I fact I actively disliked it.
I'm not sure that we have lived openly together for a "very short time". It's getting on for three years. Would you describe people who met in more conventional circumstances as being together for a "very short time" after three years?
May I ask what have you done if Anna, or someone else, had not turned up? Had you stayed in your first marriage?
I don't think my ex-wife had any intention of retuning to Dubai after our youngest daughter left to go to university (what I mean is that she would probably have come back with our daughters for university holidays and similar but I don't think she intended to live there full time). So even if there had never been such a person as Anna we would have lived apart.
In those circumstances then sooner or later one of us might have asked for a divorce. Or perhaps we wouldn't.
I don't know is the obvious answer. But even if we'd stayed married it wouldn't have met most people's definition of marriage.
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Let's just say that this guy is in MLC.
Wanting something to be true doesn't make it true.
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Let's just say that this guy is in MLC.
Wanting something to be true doesn't make it true.
Is it true you are an adulterer?
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Well first of all because I didn't begin my affair with the intention of falling in love and needing a divorce.
So it was about sex first and then love. It still makes me sick and that you sought pleasure outside of the marriage, found that pleasure and then justified your actions. Nowhere does it state that you spoke to your wife and she shared your feelings about the marriage.
You state that you don't believe in GOD yet you and your friend kept your sexual affair a secret. Adam and Eve hid themselves out of shame and so did you because you knew what you were doing was wrong. You stated you did this to protect your daughters. You did it to protect yourself from their judgement because it was about you and not them at all.
It is amazing when someone wants to justify what they did and try to put themselves in the role of the victim. When you were out having a good time with Anna, where were your school aged children? I read throughout your blog, me, me, me, me, me....blah blah blah.
Keep posting, keep trying to justify lies and dishonesty....I am not a saint either, but I have the GUTS to admit my mistakes and I never blame anyone for my actions but me.
Doc Hudson- I agree with what you write and as a man. I live a life as a man.
GOSH-I so wish and pray that HB reads this and responds.
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Presumably when you first met your wife, and you felt that she was "the one", there was romance and sex and communication. That can break down over time, ESPECIALLY after having children.
My H asked me to go to marriage counselling a couple of times and I refused. But he ONLY asked once he was already involved with OW and once he had denied my accusation that he was having an affair, AND he told me I needed marriage counselling because I had problems. Turned out I did. They were him. He was lying, he was spending our income on another woman, he was treating me like a skivvy and wining and dining her. We had 2 children too. He has left them with me, almost entirely, so that he can enjoy sexiversaries too. He was lying to me, he was twisting arguments to justify his betrayal to himself (and probably to her - it is always great to turn to your affair partner and say "we had ANOTHER blow out argument last night, she won't go to counselling and she doesn't understand me like you do, now get your kit off and SHOW me how you love me".
I am sorry, but there is no honest justification for having relations, emotional or physical, with another person when you have made promises to a committed relationship. You ALWAYS have the option of leaving the relationship. Having a break, shocking your wife into working on it for the sake of the children, giving her some choices. Unless you are a coward with no-self esteem, who can only make choices about your own life with someone providing some ego-stroking and validation so that you don't feel so bad - poor you. The truth is an affair is the most destructive way to leave a long-term relationship and marriage. It damages the children ( you have effectively told them that their mother (half of their DNA, remember) is not only not "good enough", but she is also deserves a high level of anguish and pain. You have given your children the message that half of their identity was worthless to you, their father. And these messages go deep into the psyche of children, just in case you think they don't.
I get sick of people saying divorce happens all the time. Yes. And death happens even more frequently. That does not mean that we expect people to get used to it and for it to hurt less when it happens in THEIR own family.
I feel sorry for you, honestly. I would be very interested to know if you think you had any imperfections (real ones, not ones designed to sound like good traits in disguise) in your marriage?
Anyway, sooner or later the sex will slow down with Anna. It may not be for another year, or five, but it will. She will become more demanding, she will start to find things you do annoying. Your relationship will hit a point of age, where it does not involve constant gratification. You will start to wonder if she is not a bit annoying in some ways. But never mind, there are always more willing women who will take on the opportunity to win you away from her... unless she gets bored first and leaves...
In the meantime, what of history, what of friendship, what of loving the same wonderful children in a way an affair partner never can, what of finishing each other's sentences, what of acceptance of one's self and others, what of acts of service that are NOT about getting anything in return (sex, gifts...)
We all loved the new part of the relationship, the constant sex, the constant compliments, the excitement of discovering another person's interesting life. But all things end, including the initial highs of a relationship. The middles are hard (children, jobs, lack of free time) for EVERYONE in a relationship. But if you can weather those things, what about what may be found on the other side? I guess, you may never know...
I would be very interested to hear if you and Anna are still as happily sexing away in 10 years. Good luck with that...
I was going to try and answer this until I realised there was no point.
As far as I can see you don't actually have any questions to ask. You simply want to project all your own bad experiences and prejudices onto my relationship because it didn't begin in a way that you agree with.
Whilst this might win you plaudits from other posters it doesn't give you any insight into my life. Not everyones lives are the same.
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Let's just say that this guy is in MLC.
Wanting something to be true doesn't make it true.
Is it true you are an adulterer?
Yes
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I'm not entirely certain why you bothered with marriage, being atheistic...
So the only reasons to get married are religious reasons? Should atheists not be allowed to get married?
Was the phrase "forsaking all others" in the vows of the 1st wedding? Was the phrase "I really mean it this time" in the second one?
This would be quite witty if it wasn't for the hostility being radiated out of the screen.
I can't remember if "forsaking all others" was in the 1st wedding. Obviously if it was that was a promise I was unable to keep.
We both wrote our own vows for the second one. Doing so meant we could remove any reference to God and make clear to everyone that we were pledging ourselves to each other and that God had nothing to do with it.
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So it was about sex first and then love.
Yes
You state that you don't believe in GOD yet you and your friend kept your sexual affair a secret. Adam and Eve hid themselves out of shame...
What is the point in quoting Adam and Eve to somebody who has made it clear that they don't believe in God?
...and so did you because you knew what you were doing was wrong.
Correct
You stated you did this to protect your daughters. You did it to protect yourself from their judgement because it was about you and not them at all.
It's not entirely accurate but there is probably some truth in this.
I read throughout your blog, me, me, me, me, me....blah blah blah.
By convention diaries are written from a personal point-of-view.
Keep posting, keep trying to justify lies and dishonesty....I am not a saint either, but I have the GUTS to admit my mistakes and I never blame anyone for my actions but me.
Whatever has happened in my life, good or bad, has been a result of my own actions and choices. I have nobody to blame but myself. If I have not made that sufficiently clear in my earlier posts then I'm taking the opportunity to do so now.
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Whilst this might win you plaudits from other posters it doesn't give you any insight into my life. Not everyones lives are the same.
You really would like to believe that would you. As I posted before, a narcissist only thinks from the vantage point of how things affect the narcissist. In your second marriage you wrote that you wrote your own vows to show commitment to each other. So, you did not have that same commitment when you entered into your first marriage?
I would really admire you a lot more if you simply wrote what you did was wrong, how you handled yourself was wrong, and that in this new relationship you can learn to live an honest and open life with this person.
I know you don't read the bible or believe in GOD, but if your read the story of David, you might understand my words and limited wisdom. David committed adultery and even had the husband killed in battle. When confronted with his in, David asked for forgiveness and was forgiven. However, there were consequences for his actions and he paid dearly for his actions.
I write this because you have inflicted pain on your daughters and your wife.
I didn't want to live on a different continent to my daughters.
All your words you have written speak of protecting your interests and never do you write or speak of laying down your life for others. Once again the narcissist only sees through their eyes and feelings and therefore cannot understand or even empathize with another viewpoint.
Something to ponder.
And also to add, what Stand and Deliver posted does win plaudits from me.
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You state that you don't believe in GOD yet you and your friend kept your sexual affair a secret. Adam and Eve hid themselves out of shame...
What is the point in quoting Adam and Eve to somebody who has made it clear that they don't believe in God?
Because it is about realization of sin, not belief in GOD and I would still expect someone to understand that the words were not written to convert your beliefs but to see the connection.
We crossed paths in our posts:
Whatever has happened in my life, good or bad, has been a result of my own actions and choices. I have nobody to blame but myself. If I have not made that sufficiently clear in my earlier posts then I'm taking the opportunity to do so now.
I appreciate and respect those words and have the faith that you are writing the truth.
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WK,
Thank you for posting here - it takes some courage to do so - everyone here is learning to live with the actions of their husband or wife who has left (often with another person to go to) and often in the face of devastating dishonesty and denial about the reasons for leaving etc. Most of the wives or husbands who have left their spouses on this site are not taking responsibilty for their actions.
I am a 'work in progress' - learning to live my new life to the fullest and protect my children from the fallout along with living my life today for a positive future tomorrow.
I would be interested in knowing how your circle of family and friends have behaved towards you (both) during these recent events in your life - have you had negative reactions or lost relationships as a result? How have your daughters dealt with this situation? Do you have any kind of relationship with your ex wife??
I am sorry if you have answered these questions elsewhere but I am constantly vigilent to the impact my exH's departure and subsequent marriage to his OW has on my 2 children! I believe wholeheartedly that MLC is rooted in abandonement (emotional or physical) and I worry for their emotional health in their mid life. I can only do so much but it is a constant marble which runs around my head....
Thank you
P
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I have a question for wkramer.
If Anna some day becomes unhappy or dissatisfied with you, would you prefer that she confront you with her unhappiness, or that she get a secret lover?
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Based on what he has stated, I would think he'd want Anna to keep her new relationship a secret, for the children's sake. That way they could live in an intact home with both their mother and their father.
It's all about the children.
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Not everyones lives are the same.
You really would like to believe that would you.
The fact that everyone's lives are not the same is simply a statement of fact.
In your second marriage you wrote that you wrote your own vows to show commitment to each other. So, you did not have that same commitment when you entered into your first marriage?
At the time I thought I did. Obviously with hindsight I did not.
Again, viewed with hindsight, my first marriage was a mistake. I think I got married too young and I think that I gave into the not-so-subtle pressure being exerted by my ex-wifes Catholic parents. (Before you decide this is me blaming my ex parents in law let me agree that it was my own choice).
People evolve. Life is a learning experience. I'm not sure comparing the person I was in my early twenties when I got married the first time with the person I am now in their mid forties reveals very much.
I would really admire you a lot more if you simply wrote what you did was wrong, how you handled yourself was wrong, and that in this new relationship you can learn to live an honest and open life with this person.
What I did was wrong. Deceiving my wife, Anna's husband, my children, our friends, and our employer, was wrong.
We caused all those people pain and I regret that as I've made clear before.
What I don't regret is the outcome of my actions.
I know you don't read the bible or believe in GOD, but if your read the story of David, you might understand my words and limited wisdom. David committed adultery and even had the husband killed in battle. When confronted with his in, David asked for forgiveness and was forgiven. However, there were consequences for his actions and he paid dearly for his actions.
Please don't confuse an absence of belief in God with unfamiliarity with the bible.
I write this because you have inflicted pain on your daughters and your wife.
I'm aware of that.
I didn't want to live on a different continent to my daughters.
All your words you have written speak of protecting your interests and never do you write or speak of laying down your life for others. Once again the narcissist only sees through their eyes and feelings and therefore cannot understand or even empathize with another viewpoint.
Whilst your opinion that I am a narcissist is unlikely to be changed by anything I write I don't think it is unreasonable to expect that written words on a bulletin board are understood to be brief.
I thought that my daughters best interests were served, at that point in their education, by remaining in the country where they were currently being schooled.
I also thought that my daughters best interests were served by remaining in a home with two parents.
And of course I enjoyed their company and I wanted them to live on the same continent.
Is that better?
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As far as I can see you don't actually have any questions to ask. You simply want to project all your own bad experiences and prejudices onto my relationship because it didn't begin in a way that you agree with.
Whilst this might win you plaudits from other posters it doesn't give you any insight into my life. Not everyones lives are the same.
Right. I don't have any major questions to ask. I am not projecting my bad experiences onto anyone, I am saying that affairs hurt people. Full stop. You say you are sorry about that, so on some level you must realise that is the case but you then contradict yourself by stating your wife didn't really care, if that is true what ARE you sorry about?
You clearly feel that your own personal "happiness" justifies hurting how many others? Just one person, or maybe some kids too, or maybe some extended family or old friends? Here is a question for you. Is hurting people truly ok if it is for "love"? Presumably you once loved your first wife too? So when love fades you can start hurting people in search of gratification and love? Hurting how many others? You said that you were truly sorry. Why be sorry if you did not hurt anyone? Nothing to be sorry for.
And what do you think of the opinion that some people hold that we are all internally responsible for our own happiness? So
placing the expectation of being "made happy" by someone else is dooming most relationships to failure.
I once read somewhere that marriages fail when one or both partners see the PRIMARY role of marriage to make each other happy. Because life is such that the minute we experience a feeling of unhappiness, we then project the failure of our personal happiness onto the person who was supposed to be maintaining it for us, rather than looking at ourselves and how we treat others and engage with them and addressing other aspects of our lives.
Marriages succeed (ie last a lifetime) where both partners see the PRIMARY role of marriage as a partnership towards creating a stable family unit, based on principles such as trust, honesty, kindness, compassion. Traits that can be passed onto children as a legacy for their own lives.
Of course, sex, love, intimacy, friendship and benefit of the doubt in hard times should be a part of that - maybe a big part, but these things can all be built upon and worked on if goals remain the same and are not self focused (what am I getting out of this, rather than what am I giving to this relationship)
Anyway, I am not interested in plaudits from other posters, many of them may dislike most of the things I post on this forum for all I care. But you are right, I don't have a lot of questions. Just an opinion about the role of adultery in human relationships.
Thank God not all lives are the same, and honour and loyalty and promises still mean something to some people.
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Because it is about realization of sin, not belief in GOD...
According to Wikipedia (hardly the most authoritative of sources but nonetheless) "A sin is an act that violates a known moral rule in a religion"
I don't agree that our relationship was ever sinful (because if you don't have a religion then how can you sin?). It was wrong but that's not exactly the same thing.
There's probably not much point in pursuing this much further. It might be more suited to a philosophy discussion board!
I appreciate and respect those words and have the faith that you are writing the truth.
I have no reason to do otherwise. If anything I've written helps a single person, or prevents them from turning their personal life into the chaos that mine once was, or makes them decide to do something to "fix" their marriage, then the time I've spent here will have been worth it.
In my opinion a problem with many sites like this is "groupthink". People might not like the answers I give but they will be an honest evaluation of what led me to where I am now.
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I don't agree that our relationship was ever sinful (because if you don't have a religion then how can you sin?).
Then I posted the definition of truth:
According to Wikipedia (hardly the most authoritative of sources but nonetheless)
Old Norse trú, "faith, word of honour; religious faith, belief"
So in the same vain, you do not believe in the truth either.
Something to ponder.
In my opinion a problem with many sites like this is "groupthink". People might not like the answers I give but they will be an honest evaluation of what led me to where I am now.
You are on a forum that is dedicated to people standing for their marriages, what would you expect? That is like going on a forum of people that cook and post "do you all live in a kitchen?"
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I would be interested in knowing how your circle of family and friends have behaved towards you (both) during these recent events in your life - have you had negative reactions or lost relationships as a result? How have your daughters dealt with this situation? Do you have any kind of relationship with your ex wife??
I have no surviving family so I can't answer the first question. My father liked my ex-wife and doted on our daughters so it's possible there might have been some reaction although knowing him as I did I doubt it.
Anna's parents have been very supportive. She told that she hadn't been happy in her marriage for some time and that there was somebody else involved. There was never any judgement about this and I have been welcomed into her family. They like me and I like them.
My ex-wife and I didn't really share friends so it wasn't like friends had to "pick a side". I kept my friends and she kept hers. None of mine have ever had a negative reaction and as far as i know the same is true for my ex-wife's friends.
My daughters from my first marriage are adults (22 and 21). Obviously when the news was broken to them there was an initial shock and the youngest had a negative reaction. That didn't last long and since then they've become friends.
I see my ex-wife semi-regularly (say 3 or 4 times a year) and we are reasonably friendly. In fact after we separated I discovered that I actually quite liked her and I've heard her tell jokes saying the same thing about me. She has met my current wife and they get along. I don't think they're ever going to be friends (that might be a bit too nice?) but they can interact together.
I suppose the only ongoing negative reaction is between Anna and her her ex-husband who despise each other.
I haven't seen my ex parents-in-law since we separated but to be perfectly honest we never liked each other anyway!
Perhaps this all sounds a bit too nice and as a consequence is probably not very helpful? Sorry about that!
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I have a question for wkramer.
If Anna some day becomes unhappy or dissatisfied with you, would you prefer that she confront you with her unhappiness, or that she get a secret lover?
We were both very aware of the fact that we had two failed marriages behind us and spent quite a lot of time discussing the things that went wrong in them.
One of the things that we had both experienced was that allowing small problems to stick around unresolved eventually turned them into big problems. So as a consequence we agreed upfront that honesty was going to be the foundation of our relationship.
So the answer to your question is that I would expect long before she became unhappy or dissatisfied she had discussed her feelings with me and we had agreed how to resolve the problem together.
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I think that the bottom line is that timing matters. We here of course identify with your wife as we know first hand the devastation of being the LBS. I can honestly say it was the most painful experience of my life- it emotionally and physically flattened me. Do the ends justify the means? I could only agree if somehow you could undo the pain and loss of time that being a LBS leads to.
I have come out of the valley of sad, have maintained my LBS weight loss- one of the crazy silver linings, and have found an inner strength was heretofore untapped. I suppose that it is also a silver lining to know that that inner strength is there. I would have happily toodled along without discovering that in the LBS way.
I think that your postings only confirm the wayward spouses´focus on self to the detriment of their families. It is unfortunate that your wife did not choose the path of counseling. Though you are not religious, I do hope you believe in the Golden Rule. I also think that your postings here confirm the human tendency to rationalize behaviors and please understand that I think all humans do this, whether MLC, LBS or just existing in the "real" world.
Good luck to you. May you have learned some life lessons so that you may cherish Anna to the end. Maybe in some weird karmic way, the love you give to her will make its way back to your ex and in some way complete the circle.
FTT
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...I am saying that affairs hurt people. Full stop. You say you are sorry about that, so on some level you must realise that is the case but you then contradict yourself by stating your wife didn't really care, if that is true what ARE you sorry about?
In my own circumstances (and I repeat - everyone's circumstances are different) my ex-wife was ambivalent about the end of our marriage. That doesn't mean that other people weren't caused pain by my actions and I regret that.
You clearly feel that your own personal "happiness" justifies hurting how many others? Just one person, or maybe some kids too, or maybe some extended family or old friends? Here is a question for you. Is hurting people truly ok if it is for "love"? Presumably you once loved your first wife too? So when love fades you can start hurting people in search of gratification and love? Hurting how many others? You said that you were truly sorry. Why be sorry if you did not hurt anyone? Nothing to be sorry for.
I don't "clearly" feel that my happiness justifies hurting other people. But I can't help thinking that you are trying to frame the question in black-and-white terms when the reality of most people's lives is shades of grey.
And what do you think of the opinion that some people hold that we are all internally responsible for our own happiness? So
placing the expectation of being "made happy" by someone else is dooming most relationships to failure.
I once read somewhere that marriages fail when one or both partners see the PRIMARY role of marriage to make each other happy. Because life is such that the minute we experience a feeling of unhappiness, we then project the failure of our personal happiness onto the person who was supposed to be maintaining it for us, rather than looking at ourselves and how we treat others and engage with them and addressing other aspects of our lives.
I think if you are relying on someone else to make you happy, i.e. that is the only source of your happiness, then you are probably making a big mistake.
Thank God not all lives are the same, and honour and loyalty and promises still mean something to some people.
I suppose when you visit a site like this as the "enemy" you should expect a few cheap shots. In your case your reasoning is good and well argued. I don't really think it needs the jibes.
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According to Wikipedia (hardly the most authoritative of sources but nonetheless)
Old Norse trú, "faith, word of honour; religious faith, belief"
So in the same vain, you do not believe in the truth either.
Who's truth?
The Lutheran "truth" of my wife's family (not really since Finland is probably one of the most atheist countries on earth but you get the point)
The Catholic "truth" of my ex-wife's family?
The Islamic "truth" of many of my former colleagues in the Middle East?
The Mormon "truth" of one of my former colleagues?
Etc, etc...
In my opinion a problem with many sites like this is "groupthink". People might not like the answers I give but they will be an honest evaluation of what led me to where I am now.
You are on a forum that is dedicated to people standing for their marriages, what would you expect? That is like going on a forum of people that cook and post "do you all live in a kitchen?"
I was simply pointing out that I have been as honest as possible with any replies I've posted and recognising that many posters here wouldn't like the answers.
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I'm actually curious, since you've been so honest.
Any indication yet from Anna that she's got the emotional problems I would expect to see in a woman who has no respect for marriage or family?
Your children with your first wife had a father, the man she set her sights on. She poached you from your first family. Yes, you are responsible for your own actions. But one might suppose that she has no moral compunction about inserting herself between you and your children and between you and your wife; she no doubt encouraged you to lie and cheat. This is not a woman I admire, and not only for her lack of morals. You see, I have good reason to understand that her actions are indicative of deep flaws in her character, and they belie her emotional maturity or stability--or lack thereof.
Any signs yet?
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I can honestly say it was the most painful experience of my life- it emotionally and physically flattened me.
I know that what we did caused feelings like that for Anna's husband. As I have said before I regret that our behavior caused him pain like that.
Good luck to you. May you have learned some life lessons so that you may cherish Anna to the end.
Thank you. After your experiences it is very kind of you to say that.
I'm sure I learnt some important life lessons along the way. Whilst I'm sure you'll believe that the ends didn't justify the means I can assure you that I do intend to cherish her to the end.
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I'm actually curious, since you've been so honest.
Any indication yet from Anna that she's got the emotional problems I would expect to see in a woman who has no respect for marriage or family?
Your children with your first wife had a father, the man she set her sights on. She poached you from your first family. Yes, you are responsible for your own actions. But one might suppose that she has no moral compunction about inserting herself between you and your children and between you and your wife; she no doubt encouraged you to lie and cheat. This is not a woman I admire, and not only for her lack of morals. You see, I have good reason to understand that her actions are indicative of deep flaws in her character, and they belie her emotional maturity or stability--or lack thereof.
Any signs yet?
Whilst it is obvious the question wasn't meant sincerely let me answer just for the sake of clarity.
No.
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Oh, the question was asked in all sincerity.
Perhaps it is a little painful to consider seriously, however. That's up to you.
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Oh, the question was asked in all sincerity.
Perhaps it is a little painful to consider seriously, however. That's up to you.
There is no pain in considering it seriously.
I love her. She loves me.
It might not be a popular opinion here but sometimes (occasionally maybe - I'm prepared to admit that) wonderful things flower from less than ideal circumstances.
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wk ;D i know you traced the forum from your blog, but can i ask what makes you post on here as we are lbs. most of us are standing for marriage and relationships. what are you getting from this forum :o :o :o
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wk ;D i know you traced the forum from your blog, but can i ask what makes you post on here as we are lbs. most of us are standing for marriage and relationships. what are you getting from this forum :o :o :o
I figured some of you were interested in the other side of the story? That certainly was why the first few posts were written. People seemed to have questions and I felt obligated to answer them.
Have I overstayed my welcome?
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Absolutely not, power comes from perspectives even if I do not agree with them. I do not see you as the "enemy". You are another person who made some bad choices.
It is not your marriage to Anna or your happiness now that I do not respect. Instead, it is the sneaky way that both of you went about your affair that I do not like.
Had you been honest and divorced your wife in the beginning rather than creating an unloving and uncaring environment where both of you suffered, I might have understood. Yet both you and your "new" wife chose to lie and cheat. To fabric a dishonesty rather than do the right thing. You hurt a lot of people in your quest for "happiness" when a lot could have been avoided in the first place.
I do wish you the best as having suffered great pain over these past two years, I could never wish that upon anyone else.
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Could I please ask of your relationship with your daughters now? How often do you see them and how do you get on?
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hi wk ;D i was interested by this thread. thats why i asked you what i felt. im not judging you at all.how do you feel about answering our questions.and no i dont think you have over stayed your welcome at all
EDIT: AGREED You are welcomed here and I congragulate you for your patience and understanding of the people that are here.
I think that you have contributed to the knowledge here on our board. - OLDPILOT - Moderator.
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I see all this as proof.
WK is obviously smart, very smart, very very smart!
Yet he still thinks with the wrong head.
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Could I please ask of your relationship with your daughters now? How often do you see them and how do you get on?
I get on great with my daughters and am delighted by what well rounded responsible adults they grew up to be.
I think (again in hindsight which is a wonderful thing) that I worked too hard when they were growing up and as a consequence didn't spend as much time with them as I now wish I had. What I did always do though was try to maximise the quality of the time we spent together. I knew people who would say they couldn't have done the amount of travelling I used to do "because of the kids" but as far as I could gather never actually did anything with them when they were at home.
I relocated back to the UK near the end of last year so I now see both daughters regularly, say at least 2 or 3 times a month, although that will change next year if my eldest daughter gets accepted in graduate school in the United States. That will be strange although I suppose it means I'll just be collecting even more frequent flier miles.
They also have a good relationship with my wife. In the summer they went to meet their "step grandparents" in Finland. (Is there such a thing as step-grandparents? Obviously since my eldest daughters are adults that isn't how they think of them. Perhaps "my wife's parents would have been a better description?)
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Yet he still thinks with the wrong head.
I'm obviously not that smart since I didn't understand this when I first read it.
Now I think I've got it!
Oh, and you're wrong. Although to be fair perhaps "he once thought with the wrong head" might not be entirely inaccurate!
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I'm so pleased to hear of your good relationship with your daughters. It also makes me believe you probably are not a MLCer.
My H has again not seen our D in months and does not attempt to contact her. She approached him first after the last episode, but when he would not do anything at all with her without OW present, D just had enough of it.
It's great that you are a proper father.
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Let's just say that this guy is in MLC.
Wanting something to be true doesn't make it true.
I never said that. In fact, I've noticed that there is a consistent disconnection between your replies and those of the people that you are conversing with. Is English your primary language? If English is not your primary language, then I will dismiss your mistake as a translation error. Thank you.
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Let's just say that this guy is in MLC.
Wanting something to be true doesn't make it true.
I never said that. In fact, I've noticed that there is a consistent disconnection between your replies and those of the people that you are conversing with. Is English your primary language? If English is not your primary language, then I will dismiss your mistake as a translation error. Thank you.
I'm really not sure how to take this! I don't know what to make of your statement that there is a disconnection between my replies and the other people who post here.
Yes English is my primary language. It appears from your comments that I have not mastered its use despite 40-odd years of practice. All I have to say in my defence is that it's better than my Finnish and a lot better than my Arabic.
I acknowledge that you didn't actually say what I claimed. I personally think that "lets just say..." and "this guy is..." when written on a bulletin board are very close to meaning the same thing. However, that is my own interpretation and since that wasn't what you meant then my apologies for misquoting you.
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I am sorry wkramer and all the others on this site, but I don't understand why wkramer continues to come here?
I have read through the threads, I know that perhaps some people are finding it interesting to engage in his story....
I guess it is just me...no need to read this thread if I don't want to. Although wkramer seems rather confrontational about his views.
I also wish to express...God does exist. I hope you discover that one day.
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wkramer,
I haven't read this entire thread....just bits and pieces - so I may have missed some things and may be off base.....
That said.
I think there is a reason that you are coming to this board and posting here. It doesn't appear that you wish to incite or cause trouble. Although an admitted adulterer coming to a site where the majority of the members have been cheated on is a pretty brazen act......
It is difficult - somewhat impossible - to detect someone's tone through the written word. So, if I am sounding annoyed or angry or emotional in any way - it is not so. Just curious. Not of what you write, your story, your reasons, or any of that. When your blog was posted.....I didn't read it...just the comments about it.
I find it interesting that you are posting here and sharing your story - to those who would judge you - most of them very harshly. Why would you do that? That question isn't for me....it is for you. And I don't need to know the answer. But, maybe you do.
It is unlikely that you will be able to convince anyone on this site that you are happy. Even if you are. In this place, your ends would never justify (or excuse) your means. And, I think that you know that.
So, ask yourself why you are here. This is not saying that you have overstayed your welcome or that I am saying that I wish you would leave. You can stay or go.....really doesn't matter. As with any thread, I can choose to read it or not read it.
But ask yourself why am I posting here? If you are truly okay with what you have done and you are happy - why come here and try to convince those who would be your harshest critics?
Just some food for thought.
limitless
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It is unlikely that you will be able to convince anyone on this site that you are happy. Even if you are.
I find that strange. I thought from what I'd read on this thread that most posters thought their partners had left selfishly in the pursuit of happiness. Is the claim that they leave for these reasons but don't find happiness?
Anyway I am happy but whether people believe that or not is not going to make any difference to my life is it?
In this place, your ends would never justify (or excuse) your means. And, I think that you know that.
Sure - I know that.
So, ask yourself why you are here...
But ask yourself why am I posting here? If you are truly okay with what you have done and you are happy - why come here and try to convince those who would be your harshest critics?
Well I came here after the details of my blog were posted here and I figured that rather than have a load of people speak on my behalf I'd rather speak for myself.
It wasn't ever my intention to try and convince people. I knew from my very first post that people here were likely to be amongst my harshest critics. As I said previously some of them seemed to have questions and having introduced myself here I felt like I ought to answer them.
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I find that strange. I thought from what I'd read on this thread that most posters thought their partners had left selfishly in the pursuit of happiness. Is the claim that they leave for these reasons but don't find happiness?
Anyway I am happy but whether people believe that or not is not going to make any difference to my life is it?
I would think that most people here think (or want to think) that their spouses who leave for the selfish pursuit of happiness do not find the happiness they are searching for.
If the spouse does find the happiness they are searching for and can forgive themselves for pursuing it in such a selfish way....then good for that person - I guess. I don't know. There is something about having a conscience and how that will really hit you - when you least expect it....
My Aunt's 2nd husband was married and a father of 6 kids, when she got involved with him. His youngest was less than 1. He left his wife...married my Aunt. They had 2 kids together. They stayed together for a long time...even though they had much strife with their "blended family" - he had 6, she had 2 and then they had 2 together. After many years - they divorced.....Were they happy? I don't know...I guess so. They loved each other. The fall out for all the children was really sad.....most of them are struggling in their relationships. I don't know if his 1st wife ever remarried. She ended up raising 6 kids - on her own.......
I guess as long as my Aunt and her 2nd husband were happy......that is all that mattered to them?
Who knows?
Thanks for the response.
limitless
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Selfish or misguided, the leaving spouse is seeking happiness and seeks it externally instead of looking inside. Since the leaving spouse takes him/herself wherever he/she goes, the unhappiness follows like a shadow UNTIL he/she allows the bright light of reflection to enter and see that happiness is not the responsibility of another human being- rather it is and always has been within grasp of the MLCer, he/she just chose not to realize or take ownership over it.
I think that all the folks on this site would agree that no spouse is beholden to remain in a loveless marriage. Our pain comes from being blind sided, betrayed, left without a care on the leavers´part and being lied to repeatedly. There seems to be no respect for the time and love invested in the marriage and the leaver seems to dehumanize the left spouse in order to justify the cruel actions that inevitably unfold. As most of us sooner or later acknowledge, we´d rather be us than deal with the reckoning that the leaver sooner or later must face. I see us as finding a way to heal and reconcile or start a new life. I really cannot see how the leaver ever finds a deep peace with his/her actions that were so unnecessary and cruel. Maybe you are here to see that the LBS in the end is okay and that assuages your guilt, I don´t know. I do not think that the onus is on the LBS to grant peace to the leaver. Actions have consequences. Peace of mind is priceless.
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Hi wkramer
Thanks for your patience and for your answers.
Am interested in why you set your blog up, and why you have continued it for so long?
What does Anna make of it? Do your ex wife and daughters know about your blog? Just curious - thanks.
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(In truth I never really had to lie. My ex-wife never asked any questions that required lies)
I'm not really qualified to argue philosophy or semantics.
I never really had to lie. But what I did do was deceive her.
Perhaps this is splitting hairs too thinly?
Ya think?
You lied. Not telling your wife you were cheating on her was a life of omission.
Even if it was a MLC does that make the feelings any less real? Does it mean that the love I feel for my wife is somehow different to other people's love?
Let me first say that I have not read your blog and am not interested in reading it, not because it would sicken me (which it might), but because I am busy and have other things to occupy my time. So I don’t know if you are or were MLC and I don’t care.
But if it was MLC, then yes, it makes the feelings less real. Considering how we understand/define MLC here, the feelings for the alienator are in-fatuation. They are feelings and emotions created by hormones and lack depth and the odds of sustainability within the context of the turmoil of MLC combined with infidelity are low. Nothing wrong with in-fatuation; it is one of the ways of getting to in-love, but it has a better chance of getting their when the context is not infidelity (with MLC or without).
We understand MLC not as disease, but dis-ease which is close. MLCers are responsible for their actions—it is not legal insanity. And yet there is a lot of confusion and transformation during the crisis; change in the transition is at a higher rate than during non transition periods of life, when the transition is at crisis levels there is a lot of instability.
You state that you don't believe in GOD yet you and your friend kept your sexual affair a secret. Adam and Eve hid themselves out of shame and so did you because you knew what you were doing was wrong. [RCR Note: sorry, I included ther Adam and Eve portion of the reference only because the final portion needed the fuill quote for understanding]Correct
According to Wikipedia (hardly the most authoritative of sources but nonetheless) "A sin is an act that violates a known moral rule in a religion"
I don't agree that our relationship was ever sinful (because if you don't have a religion then how can you sin?). It was wrong but that's not exactly the same thing.
There's probably not much point in pursuing this much further. It might be more suited to a philosophy discussion board!
Well, it was this that I found interesting and what prompted me to post. Don’t worry, I’m not looking for a discussion, but your response got me thinking. Yes, it is a philosophy discussion—which is not out of place on the board. But what I see is more semantics; you are splitting hairs again.
Sin has a variety of definitions, usages or connotations. One of the main definitions is turning away from God. Now clearly that doesn’t apply to you! But you said you know or believe what you did was wrong and yet you do not believe it was sinning. To me that is a contradiction. But then I can take the religious context out of the word sin. You can do that too and just replace it with the word wrong. Basically what I’m saying is, you (I think) know what someone means when they say you were or are sinning and it doesn’t need to be dismissed because the word sin has religious connotations.
Me, I actually try to avoid using the words right and wrong. It’s hard and so I think I must fail a lot, but I make the effort. Why? Because they are subjective and they are judgments. So is sin. So here is a more generalized definition or idea of sin.
An act that violates your own values, principles, moral or ethical code.
Sorry, it’s a bit convoluted with all those words, but I wanted to include them all. Example: I am Christian—Lutheran. I do not believe homosexuality is a sin. I’m ELCA and we recently voted to accept gay clergy in committed relationships. But other Lutheran Synods are against that and believe homosexuality is a sin. I am not choosing to believe it’s not a sin because my church gave me that permission. If the organization said it was a sin; I’d disagree—and still be Lutheran. According to some Christians I don’t even have the right to call myself a Christian! And yet I do and I will continue to do so; I don’t have to fit their definition.
There are a few comments from people that are pretty common betrayed spouse comments, so I don’t think I need to repost them or your answers, but maybe just explain a bit.
The comments about happiness…do you feel it justifies hurting people, and the comments about you seeming to be selfish and interested in your happiness at the expense of others…
Those are typical comments from betrayed spouses because those are the excuses we hear. We hear them from our spouses, we hear them from friends who are trying to convince up to accept that it’s over and our spouse is in-love with someone new, we hear them when we go around the Internet and read what people say about reasons for divorce and/or cheating. Hey, Jefferson wrote that the pursuit of happiness is right. Of course I will point out that he did not say the attainment is a right and just like you do not have the right to yell fire in a crowded theatre (unless there’s a fire or some other emergency, DUH) we will restrict someone’s right to their happiness if it removes the happiness of others…I’m think of extreme situations like Jeffrey Dahmer. Sorry, I don’t care if what he was doing made him happy. DUH
But at Bomb Drop or around that time we are often told by our cheating and leaving spouses that we are selfish for not wanting them to leave and for even wanting them to end their affair because if we love them we should want them to do what makes them happy.
Personally I am not fond of the word happy. I prefer to use the word joy and I feel it is a choice—whereas happy comes from hap which is like luck—happenstance.
People aren’t meaning to be sarcastic, or smart alecky or give cheap shots (okay, some might be), but some are asking those questions with a genuine desire for an answer from someone who they feel might be able to provide some insight into the other side—not necessarily MLC, but the perspective of the person choosing to have an affair. Sometimes the nature of the questions they want answered will simply feel like cheap shots.
Regarding your answers about why you stayed married instead of divorcing. I get it. I actually think those were some of the best answers I’ve read given your international situation. I commend you for doing that—though I wish there had been no infidelity and (of course) I wish you could have healed your marriage.
I’m also not one who will disbelieve your present happiness or think it’s false. I don’t think I have an opinion either way to be perfectly honest. Maybe things will continue to blossom in your new marriage and maybe they won’t, but I do hope they continue to blossom and a big part of me hates admitting that—as a marriage advocate who hates divorce and all.
My Dad and step-mother celebrated their 25th wedding anniversary this past Valentine’s Day. They aren’t soul mates and back when they were dating it did not seem like some sort of infatuation and hormonal pull. I think they love each other and they are comfortable and they are friends, but as I said I don’t sense a soul-mate sort of connection—or whatever sort of word that get my meaning across.
My Dad was the other man and my step-mother had been married for 20 years. Her first husband is a great guy and they are all friends. He was great at the time—wanted to meet my Dad, my brother and me and…well, did I say he’s a great guy? My Dad thinks he may have had some side-action as well and he did not seem to feel like a betrayed spouse, but then maybe he just put up a good front.
But I love my Dad, so I’m not going to go around hating alienators. I love my step-mother, I am not going to hate adulterers who leave for the alienator either.
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I guess as long as my Aunt and her 2nd husband were happy......that is all that mattered to them?
I doubt if most people are quite as narcissistic as that. Although, to be honest, even as I was writing the words I was anticipating the disagreement of everybody on this board.
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Hi wkramer
Thanks for your patience and for your answers.
Am interested in why you set your blog up, and why you have continued it for so long?
What does Anna make of it? Do your ex wife and daughters know about your blog? Just curious - thanks.
My blog is a small extract of my diaries that stretch back twenty-five or more years. I don't know where I got the habit of keeping a diary from.
Anna read the diaries when she was pregnant. It made her laugh and cry - sometimes both at the same time.
Neither my ex-wife or my daughters have read my blog.
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I'm not entirely certain why you bothered with marriage, being atheistic...
So the only reasons to get married are religious reasons? Should atheists not be allowed to get married?
Of course atheists should be allowed to marry; I simply wondered why you wouldn't reject it as a necessary step to making a brand new pledge.
Oh and I apologize for the hostility. My dad was a cheat. It affects us; really really does.
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Ya think?
You lied. Not telling your wife you were cheating on her was a life of omission.
Okay I suppose that's true. A lie of omission is still a lie.
But if it was MLC, then yes, it makes the feelings less real.
Well I will agree to bow to the superior knowledge of you and other people on this site. Since I don't believe I ever had a MLC it isn't relevant to my own circumstances.
But then I can take the religious context out of the word sin. You can do that too and just replace it with the word wrong. Basically what I’m saying is, you (I think) know what someone means when they say you were or are sinning and it doesn’t need to be dismissed because the word sin has religious connotations.
I can't agree with this because the word DOES have religious connotations. Wrong, deceitful, lying, etc are all similar words but dispense with the religion.
So here is a more generalized definition or idea of sin.
An act that violates your own values, principles, moral or ethical code.
I think this is a great definition. I really do. But unfortunately I don't write the dictionary (and I assume neither do you?)
The comments about happiness…do you feel it justifies hurting people, and the comments about you seeming to be selfish and interested in your happiness at the expense of others…
I hope I've made clear that I have conflicted views about this. In general the answer to your question is that no I don't believe it justifies hurting other people. In reality mine and Anna's current happiness was attained by doing exactly that.
But at Bomb Drop or around that time we are often told by our cheating and leaving spouses that we are selfish for not wanting them to leave and for even wanting them to end their affair because if we love them we should want them to do what makes them happy.
So the spouse leaving thinks that the left behind spouse is being selfish? I've never even heard of circumstances like this. I can see how this is considered crazy.
People aren’t meaning to be sarcastic, or smart alecky or give cheap shots (okay, some might be),
Yeah some are.
...but some are asking those questions with a genuine desire for an answer from someone who they feel might be able to provide some insight into the other side—not necessarily MLC, but the perspective of the person choosing to have an affair. Sometimes the nature of the questions they want answered will simply feel like cheap shots.
I'll keep that in mind before answering any other posts. Thanks.
...and (of course) I wish you could have healed your marriage.
I really don't think I understand this wish. It was over in all but name. Both of us knew that.
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Hi wkramer
Thanks for your patience and for your answers.
Am interested in why you set your blog up, and why you have continued it for so long?
What does Anna make of it? Do your ex wife and daughters know about your blog? Just curious - thanks.
My blog is a small extract of my diaries that stretch back twenty-five or more years. I don't know where I got the habit of keeping a diary from.
Anna read the diaries when she was pregnant. It made her laugh and cry - sometimes both at the same time.
Neither my ex-wife or my daughters have read my blog.
wkramer - you enjoy writing your thoughts down, that is clear. Thanks for answering my questions - still intrigued why the blog though?
I'm not trying to be difficult :), as I would ask this question of any blogger. Blogging is not something that I 'get'.
You must get something out of it, or else you wouldn't do it.
I'm just intrigued as to what the 'something' is? Thanks
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Neither my ex-wife or my daughters have read my blog.
How do you know they haven't read your blog?
honour
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Quote
(from RCR) ...and (of course) I wish you could have healed your marriage.
I really don't think I understand this wish. It was over in all but name. Both of us knew that.
I think this really is it. We all here believe in healing our marriages, in doing what it takes. Not in doing "anything", but what it takes. We have no way of knowing if your wife as well believed it was over, and our perspective is that many of our spouses try to tell us that we also know that, when we neither know nor believe any such thing.
We resent being told that we know it's over, when in our cases it certainly is our spouses saying that to justify their choices.
So it is hard for many to understand why you don't understand this wish, if that makes sense.
In the end you made a choice. We always have choices, even if it is easier to think that we don't, and even if those choices are between two crap alternatives.
But it does give insight into the mindset, and I am not trying to take a cheap shot.
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We have no way of knowing if your wife as well believed it was over, and our perspective is that many of our spouses try to tell us that we also know that, when we neither know nor believe any such thing.
T&L, I totally agree. After BD, which was a bolt from the blue for me, W attempted to justify what she had done (adultery) by telling people we had grown apart. Well, if we had grown apart I would have appreciated being let in on the secret. If I had known I might have saved my breath and not told her how wonderful she was; how gorgeous she was; how proud we all were of her achievements while she was working abroad; I may have stopped giving her a kiss and waving good-bye with a smile each time she left for the airport; each Friday night when she returned from a trip abroad I may have stopped eagerly waiting on the station platform to give her a hug and kiss and carry her bag to the house; I may have stopped the meals at restaurants and making the most of our time together before she set off again each Monday; I may not have bothered with our twenty-seventh wedding anniversary; I may have stopped making love with her if I had known she was having sex with someone else. Still, there we are, that's married life when you have grown apart and "over in all but name".
honour
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Hi wkramer
Thanks for your patience and for your answers.
Am interested in why you set your blog up, and why you have continued it for so long?
What does Anna make of it? Do your ex wife and daughters know about your blog? Just curious - thanks.
My blog is a small extract of my diaries that stretch back twenty-five or more years. I don't know where I got the habit of keeping a diary from.
Anna read the diaries when she was pregnant. It made her laugh and cry - sometimes both at the same time.
Neither my ex-wife or my daughters have read my blog.
wkramer - you enjoy writing your thoughts down, that is clear. Thanks for answering my questions - still intrigued why the blog though?
I'm not trying to be difficult :), as I would ask this question of any blogger. Blogging is not something that I 'get'.
You must get something out of it, or else you wouldn't do it.
I'm just intrigued as to what the 'something' is? Thanks
I suppose keeping a diary was the old-fashioned way of blogging although they were usually private. So if you understand why people keep a diary you're part of the way to understanding why people blog.
Truthfully? I don't know.
Validation? Forgiveness? Remorse? Understanding?
As I say I can't really tell you.
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Neither my ex-wife or my daughters have read my blog.
How do you know they haven't read your blog?
honour
Please allow me to rephrase this statement. I am as close to being sure as I can possibly be that neither my ex-wife or my daughters have read my blog.
(I think if any of them had they would have asked me about it. I'm positive my daughters would have done and I'm reasonably sure my ex-wife would have done)
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We have no way of knowing if your wife as well believed it was over, and our perspective is that many of our spouses try to tell us that we also know that, when we neither know nor believe any such thing.
I understand that. In my circumstances it was. However, as you say when so many of you have been told that when you "neither know nor believe any such thing", I understand that many of you will doubt what I say.
We resent being told that we know it's over, when in our cases it certainly is our spouses saying that to justify their choices.
So it is hard for many to understand why you don't understand this wish, if that makes sense.
It does make sense. All I can say is that our circumstances were very different to the circumstances that you describe.
In the end you made a choice. We always have choices, even if it is easier to think that we don't, and even if those choices are between two crap alternatives.
I couldn't agree more. Nobody held a gun to my head and forced me to do what I did. I chose to do it. And whilst I'm sure it's an unpopular point-of-view here I've never regretted it (although as I've said before I regret some of the repercussions of that choice).
...and I am not trying to take a cheap shot.
Thankyou for that (and to everybody else who has resisted the temptation to take a cheap shot).
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Still, there we are, that's married life when you have grown apart and "over in all but name".
What you describe is truly horrible and whilst it might be entirely meaningless, and undoubtedly hypocritical, you have my sympathy.
In my case the circumstances were nothing like what you have described. That doesn't excuse what either of us did but is supposed to go some way towards explaining the "over in all but name" remark.
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Hello wk,
have you had a look around the stories on here at all?
I wonder that's all and appreciate the fact that you return to answer the questions posted here. Not all affairs are a result of a Mid Life Crisis.
Thanks from a fellow diary writer!
P
I write as a divorced ex wife of a husband who had an affair and married his OW within 2 months of the divorce being final - so I am grateful to be able to have an insight of the 'other side' so to speak.....but my exH is DEFINITELY in MLC!!!
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have you had a look around the stories on here at all?
Yes I have although perhaps not as many as I should have read. I read maybe 8 to 10 different threads when I first came here. I can't say there was any method to my selection; I just read the ones that appeared on the front page.
Most of them just make me sad that people in MLC don't seek help, or therapy, or SOMETHING! I particularly don't like the abandonment of the children involved. I don't think I ever realised quite how far-reaching the consequences of a MLC actually are. I'm slightly ashamed to admit that until I came here I only associated it with the joke version of buying a sports car.
(Incidentally I still want a particular model of sports car. However, since I've wanted one since I was about 12 years old I'm reasonably confident this is not a result of a mid life crisis).
Of course some of the other posts here make me feel like pondlife which is perhaps why I haven't read more widely. I have no doubt that getting screwed over is horrible but being the person on the other side of this equation, at least if you think about it, is not a nice place to be either. (And no I don't expect or deserve any sympathy!)
I also didn't read much more than I did because I found myself being slightly irritated by the repeated references to God (perhaps this is just a result of the American-centric nature of the website?). Having come to atheism quite late in life I now find references to God to generate a similar reaction to that given by an ex-smoker to those who still smoke. (That isn't me by the way - apart from a brief relapse I haven't smoked in twenty something years but some days I feel like I could quite happily mow down a pedestrian just to steal the cigarette from their hands!)
These are just my impressions based on a very small sample size. I sincerely apologise if I have misunderstood you all.
...and appreciate the fact that you return to answer the questions posted here.
Thanks. It is very nice of you to say so. I don't expect any of you to like me, or even understand me, but having come here I feel obligated to answer your questions.
Not all affairs are a result of a Mid Life Crisis.
Yes I know!
Thanks from a fellow diary writer!
There are so few of us left nowadays that it is a real pleasure to find somebody else! Do you know why you keep a diary? I think I know why I do. It is a useful way to order my thoughts and clarify my thinking.
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WK,
I have kept a diary since I was aorund 13 or so - all that teenage angst and pain had to have somewhere to go! 'The Secret Diary of Adrian Mole Aged 13 and 3/4' (Sue Townend I think) lit the flame for me (great book it has to be said!!)
I burned all of my diaries when I was around 25/26 or so - can't really remember why but I have occasional minutes when I wish that had kept them.
My last 15 years have been documented fairly well - I supplement my writings with a Journal for when there is just too much going round and round in my head! Both my diary and Journal have seen some real action in the last 2.5 years ...yet I am grateful for them now as I can compare how I was feeling then to how I am feeling now. All moves in the right direction (which is good news!!).
A roll of lining paper and coloured pens got my exH's descent into MLC into perspective for me in the months after BD - I still can't read my Journal from that time as the words are still so hard to read - but I am confident there will be a time when I can read my Journal and they will just be words about someone I used to know.
I thought very seriously about leaving my Diaries and Journals to my exH in my will....then eventually decided against it. Not in a nasty vitriloic way...my diary writing and diligence to keeping a record of our life together always impressed my exH and they help chart a good marriage which was filled with love - not the rewritten horror he punts around to friends and family.
Oooh said quite a lot there really - I didn't set out to ramble on!
Take good care of you wk - I feel your story isn't over yet
P
PS I write my diary and journal in green ink with a pen my exH gave me!
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Most of them just make me sad that people in MLC don't seek help, or therapy, or SOMETHING! I particularly don't like the abandonment of the children involved. I don't think I ever realised quite how far-reaching the consequences of a MLC actually are. I'm slightly ashamed to admit that until I came here I only associated it with the joke version of buying a sports car.
Of course some of the other posts here make me feel like pondlife which is perhaps why I haven't read more widely. I have no doubt that getting screwed over is horrible but being the person on the other side of this equation, at least if you think about it, is not a nice place to be either. (And no I don't expect or deserve any sympathy!)
I also didn't read much more than I did because I found myself being slightly irritated by the repeated references to God (perhaps this is just a result of the American-centric nature of the website?). Having come to atheism quite late in life I now find references to God to generate a similar reaction to that given by an ex-smoker to those who still smoke.
Many off us here, didn't realise what MLC was all about either until it hit our spouses and we searched for more info. You're not alone on that one. And yes, it is awful for the children. I have 4 young kids and it's so hard to explain what is happening with dad.
We wouldn't want to trade places with our MLCers even though our sitch is nothing to be desired. The guilt and confussion etc are not something I'd want.
I'm Australian and Christian. I don't see any 'Americanism' about the God reference. I think people are truely hanging on to all they have. That's all my grandmother had when she and my mum and uncle were in a concentration camp for 3.5 years. There are those on this site who aren't christian but we are all respectful of each other's beliefs. I like that. It's one place I dont' get 'shot' down for my beliefs. Satan turned away from Goid and hates his name too, so I'm definitely not surprisedn you can't stand hearing about HIM. It's your choice at the end. God doesn't force anyone. But like anything, every choice has it's consequenses. What dou you believe in, out of interest?
I also commend you for sticking with us here. We can learn a lot from your posts and ansers to our questions. We have so many and we certainly don't get much response from those who leave us.
SP
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'The Secret Diary of Adrian Mole Aged 13 and 3/4' (Sue Townend I think) lit the flame for me (great book it has to be said!!)
Yes it was Sue Townsend (and they were great books). I think I still have them somewhere.
I burned all of my diaries when I was around 25/26 or so - can't really remember why but I have occasional minutes when I wish that had kept them.
I wouldn't worry too much about this. I find that I can't really understand my diaries from many years ago. They refer to things I can't remember or don't understand!
A roll of lining paper and coloured pens got my exH's descent into MLC into perspective for me in the months after BD - I still can't read my Journal from that time as the words are still so hard to read - but I am confident there will be a time when I can read my Journal and they will just be words about someone I used to know.
When I looked back through mine (obviously from the 'other side' they were a part of my life that I recognised but couldn't really associate with. "The past is a foreign country"
...they help chart a good marriage which was filled with love - not the rewritten horror he punts around to friends and family.
I think my blog (part of my diaries) probably presents history in an unfair way. Yes there was angst, and unpleasantness, and arguments, and resentment, etc. But there was also lots of good things that for some reason didn't get written down.
Take good care of you wk - I feel your story isn't over yet
Of course it's not! I have a half Finnish daughter to raise into adulthood.
PS I write my diary and journal in green ink with a pen my exH gave me!
Sadly I have gone all modern now and use Microsoft Word!
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Many off us here, didn't realise what MLC was all about either until it hit our spouses and we searched for more info. You're not alone on that one. And yes, it is awful for the children. I have 4 young kids and it's so hard to explain what is happening with dad.
Having read about MLC I just want somebody to do something about it. I don't know what. SOMETHING!
I'm Australian and Christian.
I lived in Australia (in Melbourne) for a couple of years. It really is a wonderful place.
I don't see any 'Americanism' about the God reference.
I'm British which despite the state religion is very atheistic. I'm married to a Finnish woman which despite the state religion is one of the most atheistic places on earth.
I don't really want to debate the truly horrifying experiences that your grandmother, mother, and uncle must have had in a concentration camp. I don't think it's relevant and I don't think that anybody who hasn't had that experience has anything meaningful to contribute.
. Satan turned away from Goid and hates his name too, so I'm definitely not surprisedn you can't stand hearing about HIM.
Your beliefs are your own and they are not for me to question. I don't believe in God or Satan.
What dou you believe in, out of interest?
Well, once upon-a-time, I sort of inherited my ex-wifes parents beliefs about young earth creationism, the literal interpretation of the bible, the correctness and truthfulness of the Catholic Church, etc.
Nowadays, I believe in evolution, the big bang theory, science, gender equality, gay rights (I walked in the "Pride" march in Melbourne in 2010), etc.
(Walking in the "Pride" march was great! They absolutely loved us - the white, wealthy, educated, middle aged (me at least!), heterosexual couple with a child who turned out to demand gay rights! We got more invitations to dinner from that afternoon than we've had in years!)
I also commend you for sticking with us here. We can learn a lot from your posts and ansers to our questions. We have so many and we certainly don't get much response from those who leave us.
I'll post here as long as people have questions.
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Having read about MLC I just want somebody to do something about it. I don't know what. SOMETHING!
Join the cause!!!!
Yes, I do like my home, Melbourne. But it's getting darn expensive to live here now.
I don't like religion either. Neither did Jesus. Thats' why he went against the Pharisees. I'm certainly not interested in following any set of man made rituals. I can follow the football and have religion. I want faith.
SP
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Having read about MLC I just want somebody to do something about it. I don't know what. SOMETHING!
Join the cause!!!!
I think because so much of MLC is tied up with adultery it would be very hypocritical for me to do so. Perhaps I'll support you all from the sidelines.
Yes, I do like my home, Melbourne. But it's getting darn expensive to live here now.
Yes - I know!
I can follow the football and have religion. I want faith.
If you like football and faith can I suggest you start to support Arsenal. It needs faith to believe they're going to do anything good in the near future!
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Oh, I mean 'Aussie rules' rather than soccer. Sorry, but I am a Melbourne girl. Then again, being that, I can support both codes and more......
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Thanks once again for answering my questions.
Most of them just make me sad that people in MLC don't seek help, or therapy, or SOMETHING! I particularly don't like the abandonment of the children involved. I don't think I ever realised quite how far-reaching the consequences of a MLC actually are. I'm slightly ashamed to admit that until I came here I only associated it with the joke version of buying a sports car.
Don't be ashamed about this. I am sure that most of us thought the same, until our formerly loving spouses morphed into people that none of their immediate family recognise.
And the MLC sports car is fast being replaced by 4 wheel drives and motorbikes these days. (My husband has both).
And yes - the devastation because of their actions towards their own children, would have to be one of the more destructive parts of the crisis.
Most of us are very keen for this to become far more widely known. The fact that it is so brushed under the carpet is a little mind boggling.
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It could be that you never experience feelings of drudgery and sameness with your newer wife, but if you do, or if there is unimagined tragedy in your life that causes extreme stress, do you think you will bail on the marriage with her, or are there any lessons learned
I don't know why I feel obligated to report back. To be honest I'd forgotten all about this website.
Does a sixteen week miscarriage count as an "unimagined tragedy"? Perhaps at our age it doesn't?
It has brought us closer together. We've spent the summer together in Helsinki (much to my employers displeasure - as if I could care less!) and have grown closer. The "unimagined tragedy" was terrible, undoubtedly worse for Anna than it was for me, but it is one of the many challenges that life with throw at us. We're ready to confront them all.
Am I going to bail? Not in a million years!
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wkramer--I forget--do you have children already?
How do you feel about moving away from them to Helsinki?
That makes me sad.