Midlife Crisis: Support for Left Behind Spouses
Archives => Archived Topics => Topic started by: evas on May 24, 2013, 11:25:57 PM
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RCR Note:
I have split this topic from Thundarr's thread because I think it is a great discussion that needs highlighting. I would like to post as well and hope to do that, but today is a holiday and we have plans all day. So I have skimmed the thread to determine which posts to split. I don't know if I should post here or maybe write so, me blog posts or perhaps both--I need to read without skimming first.
Thundarr already started another topic from this post of his, but since this also stems from that, I am including it here and Evas original starting post for this thread follows.
One topic of discussion I want to broach is that on this site we seem to be so MLC-centric that we tend to deal with every situation by the "LBS playbook" and oftentimes almost discourage some newbies it seems by telling them in a roundabout way that it's either hopeless or that they can count on having years of separation and infidelity to look forward to. But, the truth is that no one here including myself is qualified to diagnose MLC and especially not vicariously through another person's account. I'm qualified and licensed to diagnose anything in the DSM-IV but would never diagnose someone's spouse based solely on what the person was telling me about them. It would not only be malpractice but foolishness of the highest order. And why, you ask? Because the person closest to someone is NOT a reliable source of information about them in almost all cases. And the reason for this is that they are the most BIASED. When we diagnose a child with ADHD for example, we give the parent a rating instrument to gauge their perception of the child's behaviors but we put more weight on the one we give the teacher because of less risk of unaccounted for variables. Perhaps the child acts up more at home because they are reacting to the parenting style. I'd like to have a dollar for every parent who has brought their child in for an ADHD diagnosis based on their behavior at home only to hear them report the child is "an angel at school." Moral of the story is that I have no idea whose spouses here are really in MLC or if any are at all, and I also cannot diagnose my own XW as I'm too biased.
So, what point am I trying to make? We should follow the lead of those who have gone before and been successful (just like in anything), but we should also look for real signs and not discount our spouses' behaviors as "cycling" or "Nice Monster" without at least considering following techniques that might work with estranged spouses in "normal situations." As OP says, "No Expectations" but that should never mean to give up hope or stop trying which is the message I'm afraid some of the newbies might be getting.
I agree with you Thundarr. It's rather amazing how rigid we are in our MLC "guidelines" while knowing just how vague MLC really is. I think all possibilities should be explored. So something didn't work in the first nine cases, but it worked in the tenth? Does that mean it should be deemed "not successful"?
When H came back home last year, I spent a long, long time watching for god only knows what signs, expecting him to pack up and leave any day. I actually prepared myself for that, as I'd been told this was just a touch and go, it was much too soon, it was, basically, "hopeless". So I watched and watched. But there was no contact with OW, there was no depression, H actually seemed relieved and happy (9 months later that is still the case). Of course I didn't buy any of it. I remember one day when I was sitting by the computer and H was sitting in the sofa behind me and we were chatting about something and I just blurted out: "Are you sure you're actually going to stay here?"
Looking back, I do question the rigidity of some advice given here at times, and the sometimes harsh way with which it is being delivered. "Sorry honey but this is going to take a decade to solve". It's not that black and white. Nobody knows for sure how long a midlife crisis takes. Actually, my friend's therapist who believes in MLC and is treating both my friend and her MLC H, rolled her eyes when she heard how long we believe MLC takes here. I wish there were more reconciliation stories coming out of this forum, I'd like to know what worked in those stories, but I think I know why there are so few. People are terrified of calling themselves "reconciled", former LBSers are terrified that if they do, the other shoe will drop, they will be jinxed somehow. Perhaps many who are in "reconnection stage" are actually anxiously awaiting the other shoe to drop. How can a person live like that? How many years do you have to be together again in order to be deemed "reconciled" anyway? Who wants to live life like that? I sure don't.
The truth is there is always hope. If we live as if this is a forever-lasting doom and gloom and misery then that's of course what it will be. But miracles happen all the time. It's a miracle I made it through last year. I'm sure some people here feel it's a miracle they get out of bed some days. Let's focus on that. Let's focus on laughing, on finding joy even during this painful experience. I laughed so much last year, it's amazing really. I thought I should write a book about it: "How I Laughed My Self through My Husband's MLC".
I do believe in detaching. I think detaching is healthy. We sometimes lose sight of who we are as individuals, we get so wrapped up in couplehood and family that we lose sight of ourselves. I am still detached in a good way, I hope. Yes, I am sure there's a part of me that my H will never again have full access to, that's part and parcel of the MLC experience, a battle scar I guess, but perhaps that's not such a bad thing. I am more than a mom, I am more than a wife. Like Sylvia Plath wrote: "I have a self to recover."
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"Sorry honey but this is going to take a decade to solve". It's not that black and white. Nobody knows for sure how long a midlife crisis takes. Actually, my friend's therapist who believes in MLC and is treating both my friend and her MLC H, rolled her eyes when she heard how long we believe MLC takes here.
Don't think anyone says it is going to take a decade to solve. More like, on average, it takes 3-7 years. Average is just that, average. It can be longer, it can be shorter. What we need to remember is that MLC does not start at BD and does not end at Replay. From what I recall it is also said here that a MLC can last until 10 years. Can, not will.
Could you please explain how is your friend who is a therapist treating a man in MLC? Also, how long does your therapist friend thinks MLC lasts? How does she sees the fact that many here have been having spouses in crisis for many years (,3.5, 4,5,6 years and more)? Is she aware many crisis last a long time?
I would love to believe MLC lasts, on average, 6 months to 2 or 2.5 years but that is not what the experience of people in this board, my own, my husband's and the other people in my real life tell me.
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This was posted on DB by a friend of mine that has posted here occasionaly and might be a good explanation, also I would reccomend the Gail Sheehy book Understandings Men's Passages
I think many people have heard about the "7 year itch" and some may understand that people, in their adult lives, go through "transitions" every 7 to 10 years, give or take. Those transitions can often include re-making themselves, including some behaviours.
That said, once a person makes a lucid choice to become "version 2" of themselves, they are going to stick with it, own it, embrace it... for likely the next 7 to 10 years... until their next transition.
If we look at MLC as being a transition, just in crises, the same can hold true. If someone comes out of transition, or what an LBS and others might think as "stuck" (because they are continuing to be someone that we don't recognize), it holds to reason that it can take 7 to 10 years before they decide, in their next "normal" transition, to return back to a person we more recognize. At that next transition, they may come to realize what they have done in the past (their behaviour during MLC and "after") was inappropriate.
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This was posted on DB by a friend of mine that has posted here occasionaly and might be a good explanation, also I would reccomend the Gail Sheehy book Understandings Men's Passages
I think many people have heard about the "7 year itch" and some may understand that people, in their adult lives, go through "transitions" every 7 to 10 years, give or take. Those transitions can often include re-making themselves, including some behaviours.
That said, once a person makes a lucid choice to become "version 2" of themselves, they are going to stick with it, own it, embrace it... for likely the next 7 to 10 years... until their next transition.
If we look at MLC as being a transition, just in crises, the same can hold true. If someone comes out of transition, or what an LBS and others might think as "stuck" (because they are continuing to be someone that we don't recognize), it holds to reason that it can take 7 to 10 years before they decide, in their next "normal" transition, to return back to a person we more recognize. At that next transition, they may come to realize what they have done in the past (their behaviour during MLC and "after") was inappropriate.
RCR also has some info about it in the MLC Overview article
Life transitions are isolated periods of qualitative changes in life structure and ego development experienced at varying phases of life by each person; they are also cyclical, occurring every 7-10 years. Transitions become crises when one attempts to avoid the inevitable internal processes of change, growth and aging. There is an increased likelihood that a transition will become a crisis if a person has a history of turmoil and avoidance at previous life transitions. Unresolved issues surface and rebury, only to resurface with additional issues at each growth phase. Greater transforming-avoidance, coupled with the recycled and unresolved issues, yields crises of increasing severity over time. This is why many consider the Midlife Crisis to be the most tumultuous.
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RCR also has some info about it in the MLC Overview article
Life transitions are isolated periods of qualitative changes in life structure and ego development experienced at varying phases of life by each person; they are also cyclical, occurring every 7-10 years. Transitions become crises when one attempts to avoid the inevitable internal processes of change, growth and aging. There is an increased likelihood that a transition will become a crisis if a person has a history of turmoil and avoidance at previous life transitions. Unresolved issues surface and rebury, only to resurface with additional issues at each growth phase. Greater transforming-avoidance, coupled with the recycled and unresolved issues, yields crises of increasing severity over time. This is why many consider the Midlife Crisis to be the most tumultuous.
Wow. I had read that before but forgot about it. My husband did go through something about seven years before his MLC started where he brought up many of the same issues that I believe are driving his crisis. He actually acted the same way as he has been in MLC, only much, much milder and it only lasted maybe 3-4 months or so and then he returned to the husband I knew. It was a rough couple of months for us as a couple. Interestingly, around the time of BD he referenced that time and said that things he was dealing with had been "swept under the rug" at that time. Wonder if he realizes he is the one who did the sweeping....
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My H too. About 7 years before BD, my H suffered a much milder version of this crisis - the worst of it lasted around 3-4 months, but the depression around it lasted about 18 months.
My H too referenced a resurfacing of the same issues, for his reason for having to leave me, at BD.
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XW went through a milder version back around 2000 and exhibited many of the same behaviors. I suspected infidelity back then but she always denied it. But she did lie to me back then, dress like a teen and suddenly crave the bar scene for the first time. It was around her 30th birthday now that I think of it as she was born in '70. Why have I not put this together before now?!?
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What I meant AnneJ, is that I don't think it's very conducive to greet newcomers this way: "this is going to take a long time, it's not your fault, and therapy doesn't help".
Even though it has been said here that MLC doesn't start at BD, that's where the counting begins (we aren't supposed to count, but of course we all do). And when RCR talks about the average crisis lasting 3-7 years, she means from BD on, I assume. Many of us spent years and years walking on egg shells before BD, which if the crisis lasts say 4-6 years easily can add up to a decade or almost.
I cannot tell you why my friend's therapist believes she can treat my friend's MLC H, I have very limited experience of therapy myself, but both my friend and her H feel that therapy is beneficial for them. Should we not then say that yes, in some cases therapy may work instead of dismissing it altogether?
So it's not our fault that our spouses are in the claws of MLC, but the question is can we prolong it by not moving forwards ourselves? Can we cut down the MLC process by moving on, learning something from this, changing, getting over our anger and fear? If the answer to this question is "yes" then that must also mean that we actually CAN do something, no?
If we just let down our guard a little, open up to other possibilities and ideas then others might feel free to step forward with their reconciliation/reconnection stories and we'd all have a better overview of MLC. It's like cancer patients: Some are helped with chemo, some with radiation, some with a combination of drugs, and some use alternative methods. Why slam one method over another? You believe this, I believe that. Can't we all just agree that we may try different approaches and report back? Wouldn't you be interested in hearing what worked for someone? I know I sure would.
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Off-topic, but that's the second Kierkegaard quote I've heard today after never having heard of him. "When you label me you negate me" is the other. Now that I think of it, it's not really that off-topic at all....
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For my exH, He had a transition in his fist marriage I think around the 7 year mark where he gave up drugs and became a Christian. However, he ended up leaving his wife after 10 years of marriage.
The depression' in our marriage started at 7 years. He quit a lot of activities and wanted to move churches and homes. That was 6 and a half years ago. BD was 3 and half years ago. He left us 2 years ago and he is still with OW2.
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What I meant AnneJ, is that I don't think it's very conducive to greet newcomers this way: "this is going to take a long time, it's not your fault, and therapy doesn't help".
I think many who find this site are looking for information, which includes the time frame. The time frame is hard to wrap a finger around anyway, which may be why RCR writes that most LBS will learn it through experience.
I believe letting the LBS know MLC is not their fault is very important early on. I've seen LBS who are devastated by the Projection from their MLCer. RCR addresses this well in the article Midlife Crisis Takes Time.
You are to blame. You were controlling and manipulative, weak, too fat, too skinny, withheld affection, too much public displays of affection, worked too much, didn't work enough, used sex as a negotiating tool, forgot to floss on the second Tuesday after your wedding...
Though no one is perfect, in the beginning you will search your own behaviour for what went wrong. Since the MLCer often offers a long list of your transgressions, it is not a difficult search. In the beginning, many LBS's accept this blame, using it as the excuse for the bad marriage. For many experiencing this crisis in their marriage, there was no bad marriage. Though nothing is perfect, many problems were not significant enough to warrant danger. The problem is the Midlife Crisis.
There are two different things to consider with therapy. Many LBS seek therapy and are encouraged to do so. It's marriage counseling that is rarely beneficial......and there are specific reasons for this. MLCers avoid and deny. MLC is not a time when the MLCer is going to put forth the effort to work on the marriage.....they are doing just the opposite.....the MLCer is abandoning.
I cannot tell you why my friend's therapist believes she can treat my friend's MLC H, I have very limited experience of therapy myself, but both my friend and her H feel that therapy is beneficial for them. Should we not then say that yes, in some cases therapy may work instead of dismissing it altogether?
They should be in therapy. Both are willing. If he's in MLC, that may not last. See comments above about MLCers and marriage counseling.
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What I meant AnneJ, is that I don't think it's very conducive to greet newcomers this way: "this is going to take a long time, it's not your fault, and therapy doesn't help".
Well, we can't say, it is fine, it will go away in 3 weeks of 6 months. We use the averages. And I think it is better to say to be prepared for a long time, and then it be a short time, than the other way round. What would happen if we would say "It is a short term situation" and years went by and the person remained in MLC?
It is not the LBS fault. Why should we say it is?
As for therapy not working, when people here that go to therapy, tell on the board it is only making it worst, yes, we say that, normally, it does not work for MLC. That is the experience most have. And several have tried to go into therapy with their MLCer.
If therapy is helping your friend and her husband, that is good. it may be working because he is on a latter stage, has a less acute MLC, or any other thing we are not aware of. But the experience most here have in therapy with MLCers was not good.
Yes, we can prolong it by not moving forward. But it is hard to say with which MLCers that would work or not. I've moved froward, my husband remains in MLC. In fact, with him, I think it is the opposite. Since I made myself unavailable and he is, by nature, a clinger, that prolonged his crisis. But it was impossible to remain closer. If I had, I had not moved forward and would be enabling him to cake eat and live between me and OW.
Getting over our anger and fear is important for us but does not seem to be enough to cut down anyone MLC. Do what? If we try to reach out to the MLCer we will be meet with anger, monster and rejected. If we allow the MLCer to swing between us and OW, the crisis will go on. Not sure what we should that we're nopt doing since everyone here has tried different things and none seems to have worked.
Unless an MLCer accepts to go see a doctor or therapist and his willing to work on his/her issues, there seems to be little we can do for them. Some MLCers seem to get very scared if the LBS remarried or has a new partner (that is the reason why my husband drgas the divorce, he knows I will remarry). In a way, he is also prolonging his crisis by not let me be free to remarry but he does not know it.
Evas, reconciliation/reconnection stories are one thing, the deep of Replay another. In reconciliation/reconnection's therapy and other things that don't work in Replay can work. But in Replay, with someone that is living with OW/OM (or married to them), does not have contact with us, how are we going to work on something that, currently, does not exist? His your friend's husband a high replay MLCer on the depths of Replay? His he on the beginning of his crisis? His he past replay? Where he is on his crisis may explain why therapy is working. As for curing his MLC... well, that require that MLC is seen as a disorder. Something I think it is but RCR, for exemple, does not.
If you have ever read my threads you will know that I think MLC can be mitigated with treamtement but that it would only work if we had managed to have the MLCer go to a doctor in the begining of the crisis and remained in the course that course of action. I think MLC has neurohormonal causes, with a little of past issues on the mix. Many here believe it is mainly a development issue.
Stiil, if you have any idea how do I make my husband to come out of replay, please let me know. So far I've found none except let replay end and then see what happens. And I think the same goes for the husband's and wives's of most of us. What should we do to bring them out of Replay? How can you help someone that does not want help? Do you go over to where they live with other person and drag them to a doctor/therapist?... Many of us didn't even to manage to do that before they left, let alone with them in Replay...
But I'm interested in hearing what worked for others (don't remember ever said I was not and if there is one thing we do here is read/listen to others). However we don't seem to have those many different stories or results with different ways. Not with severe MLC at least.
My cousin had MLC and it was different, and milder, than most of our MLCer but it still come down to him had reached a point when he hit rock bottom and, from then on, allowed for help. Until that point he either would go to therapy and bail out on second appointment, or would monster at us and his partner. He never listened to us or therapists.
Sorry, I don't understand what many had spend years and years walking on eggshells before BD has to do with MLC. Does that mean the spouse of those people was already in MLC for many years before BD or that the marriage had issues that have nothing to do with MLC?...
Could it be that what the therapist who is helping your friend and her husband labels MLC is, in fact, midlife transition? There are many sites and articles that talk about MLC and say the person suffering from it had an affair, went to therapy and is working on the marriage but those articles and sites don't seem to be talking about the same things we deal with here.
As for the length of MLC, for me, the full length is full length, from before BD to the end of rebirth. RCR says on average a MLC starts 12-36 month before BD. Again, we are talking on average. It could be shorter, it could be longer.
I'm sorry but I really don't understand why, all of a sudden, there is a concern we tell newbies that it will take time, that infidelity will most likely happen (if it already hasn't) and that, normally, therapy does not work. That is all on the articles, blog posts, info, coaching offered here. It is not like we have decided to start have new rules of our own.
I don't remember if anything happened to Mr J 7 years before BD. He have had 2 depression due to exhaustion before MLC (no longer remember exactly when) but they were normal depressions, no signs of Replay. He would be "dead", with no energy, depressed, only wanting to stay home.
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Oh dear... I did not say it's the LBSer's fault that his or her spouse goes into MLC. But from my own experience (which I hope will count for something?) I can say that for years I kept reacting the same way towards H and his depression and nothing changed. Absolutely NOTHING. It wasn't until I changed that also his pattern changed. Is it fair that I, as the LBSer, should have to change? No. Is life fair? No.
Earlier on, I wrote about the harsh way with which some comments are delivered. A prime example would be this:
They should be in therapy. Both are willing. If he's in MLC, that may not last. See comments above about MLCers and marriage counseling.
Do you see yourself how you (almost) dismiss therapy, since her H is in MLC it may not last? I'm all for reading RCR's valuable comments, but as I said before there are OTHER views, ideas, and thoughts out there that we ought to be open for to explore and pass on as information. I'd say don't let us become so negative and "sure". We, this forum as a collective, and RCR do not have patent on MLC nor do we know everything that is to know.
I'll say it again, although I have a feeling it won't be heard: MAYBE, just MAYBE there are solutions that work in SOME cases. And MAYBE just MAYBE we should pass on this information to others before dismissing it altogether? As Marcus Aurelius said: "Because a thing seems difficult for you, do not think it impossible for anyone to accomplish."
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I think as a forum we have already acknowledged that there are different patterns by starting the vanisher, clinger, boomerang designations. We already accept that not all of us will travel the same path. Some of us turn to faith and some of us to meditation. Some of us have opted for anti-depressants, some of us not. I don´t think that the vast majority of posters is trying to slam a newbie. I do think it is a kindness to forewarn a newbie even if he or she is not ready to hear it. When I arrived here, I was shocked to read of a two year time span and shocked to read of infidelity- even though I had already caught h signing up for match.com and his friend was helping him with a dating profile. It´s just so very hard to digest that your special someone has altered so drastically. I think the first year is just taking all that in as it seems surreal. This site IS supportive. I think that Thundarr, despite your/his therapy background, is so close to his own situation- obviously, that he wants daily reassurance that his xw will pull out of this. Accepting the unknown takes a long time. T, when you really start working on YOURSELF and stop focussing on your xw, you will realize that with or without, her the future is unknown and that every day is a gift. Fear is keeping you from being all that you can be. From reading your posts, I DO think your w will pull out of it and try to reconcile, just one observer´s opinion. So, in the meantime, what will you do with the time?
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I'm not talking about what we as LBSers do for ourselves, like turn to meditation, practice our faith etc, I'm talking about POSSIBLE solutions to shorten or help our MLCer move out out of MLC sooner rather than later. I'm talking about something that we often consider "impossible", because I don't think it is.
I am going to go out on a limb here by challenging "validation". Let's look at what RCR writes about it:
Though you cannot fix your MLCer, you are not incapable of providing help--by accepting and validating his choices. I'm sorry you feel...
life is hopeless
you do not love me
I was an awful wife
you deserve better
you are not worthy
this new person is your soul mate
you are never coming home
you hate me...
By not validating, your MLCer feels you are not listening or taking him seriously; to dismiss his feelings is to also be dismissive of him--and that is insulting.
This is how I (before I even came to this site, and before I had even heard of MLC the way we talk about it here) responded to my H for a very long time, many years actually. It wasn't until I STOPPED validating/accepting his feelings that I noticed a change in him. Saying "I'm sorry you feel I was an awful wife" (for instance, which I am sure I did or some echo of it) is actually a LIE coming from me, either a lie or a form of sarcasm, as I don't at all feel sorry that my H believes I was an awful wife. I feel it's a bunch of crap. It wasn't until I stopped this, stopped what my H perceived as sarcasm, stopped validating, stopped "accepting" how he feels, stopped babying him, stopped also "paving the way", that I noticed a change. Actually I stopped communicating with my H altogether other than the very basics. It was then that he realized that he could NOT HURT me, which was part of the "fun" for him. To bait me, to see how I'd respond: Would I bark, would I roll over, what would I do? Or would I, his highest hope, go under knowing that he had met a younger woman?
And saying things like "I don't want a divorce", well, in my case I just KNOW it would have given my H a longer MLC leash. In his eyes it would have made his MLC behavior perfectly legit. Though it wasn't my intention, I did hand H a "deadline", an ultimatum of sorts, because I needed to leave the country. Without him, I couldn't afford to stay with my son in the US. I didn't say: "If you don't come back, I will have to relocate." I said: "I need to move, we can figure out a way for you and S to keep in touch and visit." That's when H realized he couldn't behave like a teenager anymore. I know, I know, in MANY of the situations here it doesn't work that way. But in mine it did, and so I say there might be other cases in which it MAY work as well.
My H was (is?) a Boomerang with slightly "clinging" tendencies. I often felt that if it weren't for our son, he'd be a vanisher.
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Evas,
You can´t help a vanisher in any sort of way. Pretty much any contact initiated by the LBS is rebuffed. My h vanished from the lives of every person we knew in common. I know nothing of his life or state of mind. In my sitch, it´s effed up if you abandon and won´t sign the d papers, ignore a prenup and sue LBS but won´t request a court date. Sure, I hope he finds his way. I just know that our paths will not cross down the road, though that IS what I was desperately hoping to happen for 1.5+ years. Love does need to be nurtured. We LBS are strong, but we also need to be cared about.
One out of five adolescents has mental illness. I doubt that they all grow out of it. Perhaps many of us married the twenty percent.
Love does not cure mental illness. The longer the MLCer goes without intervention- CBT for example, the more distortion that occurs to his or her brain. Without seeking help, I don´t see how they arrest the brain changes due to depression.
Is there hope? Yes, there is always hope that an abandoner will realize how much he/she was loved and after self-reflection will realize that the majority of the issues were internal and influenced by FOO. It takes a strong character to look that deeply and these folks are emotionally weakened.
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I'm beginning to think I cannot make myself clear at all.
1. I am not saying that every MLCer can be helped. I am saying some MAY be helped.
2. I am not saying love can cure mental illness.
What I AM saying is this: There ARE ways to help SOME MLCers come out quicker from their tunnels. And I feel that that's something pretty much deemed impossible here.
My H has enormous FOO issues. He was sexually abused on a regular basis as a child, and when his family found out they just shrugged their shoulders.
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Evas, I agree with you. I believe some may be helped to exit the tunnel sooner.
The reason I believe that, is because of my H's earlier, much milder version of crisis (although I wouldn't have called it that at the time). Same behaviours, same detach, long distance emotional affair - he swears to this day that it wasn't a PA, but given what I know now - I have to wonder. And because he refused to go to therapy, and I didn't insist (my mistake) - I believe this landed us all in his second, far more severe bout of crisis now.
I had quite a lot of influence last time. I felt as though I could punt him around the pool table, and steer his course to some extent. Not all things worked, but I kept trying until something did.
This time - no hope of that. He is way too far gone and 'out of it'.
I have witnessed and believe these things to be on a spectrum. Some will be near the mild end, and some near the more severe end.
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Saying "I'm sorry you feel I was an awful wife" (for instance, which I am sure I did or some echo of it) is actually a LIE coming from me, either a lie or a form of sarcasm, as I don't at all feel sorry that my H believes I was an awful wife. I feel it's a bunch of crap. It wasn't until I stopped this, stopped what my H perceived as sarcasm, stopped validating, stopped "accepting" how he feels, stopped babying him, stopped also "paving the way", that I noticed a change. Actually I stopped communicating with my H altogether other than the very basics. It was then that he realized that he could NOT HURT me, which was part of the "fun" for him. To bait me, to see how I'd respond: Would I bark, would I roll over, what would I do? Or would I, his highest hope, go under knowing that he had met a younger woman?
Just chiming in here too to say that this has been on my mind an awful lot. I find it very difficult to validate lies. I almost physically cannot do it, I have managed to say "I'm sorry ..." and tried to continue but lost my words. I don't want my H to feel $hit because he isn't being heard but I also don't want to feel $hit by saying what he is saying is okay. It's so hard. My H doesn't feel heard by anyone who loves him only people who agree with him. If I agree with him I am listening, if I don't agree and offer a different opinion, I am not listening. I guess this is where validating comes in .... it is very difficult but I guess when we are dealing with feelings then they are true for that person.
Evas, I agree with you. I believe some may be helped to exit the tunnel sooner.
The reason I believe that, is because of my H's earlier, much milder version of crisis (although I wouldn't have called it that at the time). Same behaviours, same detach, long distance emotional affair - he swears to this day that it wasn't a PA, but given what I know now - I have to wonder. And because he refused to go to therapy, and I didn't insist (my mistake) - I believe this landed us all in his second, far more severe bout of crisis now.
I had quite a lot of influence last time. I felt as though I could punt him around the pool table, and steer his course to some extent. Not all things worked, but I kept trying until something did.
This time - no hope of that. He is way too far gone and 'out of it'.
I have witnessed and believe these things to be on a spectrum. Some will be near the mild end, and some near the more severe end.
I think I was in a similar boat Kikki, November 2010 and H said he couldn't be with me anymore etc. It was very intense speech. We said we would try, would work on things. He was open to any ideas. I had a 6 month old baby and felt gutted. I didn't know what to do and I felt hurt and sank into a depression. When he left 18 months later he said he had warned me this would happen. If only I had know about midlife transition and midlife crisis. I think I would have been SOOOOOOO much more understanding about his changes and his needs and desires. That book "This is not the story you think it is ..... " forgotten the author's name, really shows how through her understanding of her Hs transition and though her own self development she averted a full blown abandonment and crisis.
I had therapy and the therapist basically told me that I was in an emotionally abusive R. If she had some understanding of MLC and could suggest this was a possibility it would have helped. She didn't know it I guess. She suggested I get a lawyer!
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Exactly Kikki! You hit the nail. Thank you.
And in my case, I think that if I had STOPPED my validation of my H's early signs of MLC (again I did not think MLC at the time) I firmly believe I would have been able to PREVENT his full-blown MLC with OW, Monster, and moving out and all the other things that happened last year. And this is where this site comes in: A newbie arrives and gives us his or her story and right away we give the SAME advice to EVERYONE. Right away we PRESUME that there's NO WAY the LBSer can do ANYTHING to shorten her partner's MLC. It's the rigidity of that advice that makes me wonder.
In my case there's no way I can use therapy. We have no insurance and it's far too costly to pay out of pocket. Thus I have to do the major work myself. Also H. And he is really trying. We have a good life together now.
Thundarr, I'm sorry for hijacking your thread. Let me know, and I'll take this over to my own thread.
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No hijacks on my threads ever, Evas, and this is EXACTLY what I wanted to happen. A sharing of perspectives and ideas from extremely intelligent individuals that hopefully helps to move us as a community one step closer to the goal of finding the answers to salvaging marriages and relationships with as little suffering as possible. RCR herself has said it before (and most recently on the Discussion thread I started) that none of us know all the answers and all situations are different. We should not try to shoe-horn every poster that shows up here into the same boat and risk discouraging newbies who may still have a chance to do the things that will save their marriages. THAT is what I meant by the LBS Playbook needing to be updated/ revised!! I think we veterans tend to get very cynical over time, and who would argue that we don't have valid reasons to? We see hundreds of stories similar to our own with spouses behaving badly, committing infidelity, abandoning their children and destroying their finances all in the search for "happiness." But, as someone said earlier just because something is true 99 times it DOES NOT mean it will be true the 100th time. We have to be flexible and accommodating, not rigid and divisive. And that's coming from a conservative Republican!! (right, Mamma Bear? lol).
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I'm not talking about what we as LBSers do for ourselves, like turn to meditation, practice our faith etc, I'm talking about POSSIBLE solutions to shorten or help our MLCer move out out of MLC sooner rather than later. I'm talking about something that we often consider "impossible", because I don't think it is.
I am going to go out on a limb here by challenging "validation". Let's look at what RCR writes about it:
Though you cannot fix your MLCer, you are not incapable of providing help--by accepting and validating his choices. I'm sorry you feel...
life is hopeless
you do not love me
I was an awful wife
you deserve better
you are not worthy
this new person is your soul mate
you are never coming home
you hate me...
By not validating, your MLCer feels you are not listening or taking him seriously; to dismiss his feelings is to also be dismissive of him--and that is insulting.
This is how I (before I even came to this site, and before I had even heard of MLC the way we talk about it here) responded to my H for a very long time, many years actually. It wasn't until I STOPPED validating/accepting his feelings that I noticed a change in him. Saying "I'm sorry you feel I was an awful wife" (for instance, which I am sure I did or some echo of it) is actually a LIE coming from me, either a lie or a form of sarcasm, as I don't at all feel sorry that my H believes I was an awful wife. I feel it's a bunch of crap. It wasn't until I stopped this, stopped what my H perceived as sarcasm, stopped validating, stopped "accepting" how he feels, stopped babying him, stopped also "paving the way", that I noticed a change. Actually I stopped communicating with my H altogether other than the very basics. It was then that he realized that he could NOT HURT me, which was part of the "fun" for him. To bait me, to see how I'd respond: Would I bark, would I roll over, what would I do? Or would I, his highest hope, go under knowing that he had met a younger woman?
And saying things like "I don't want a divorce", well, in my case I just KNOW it would have given my H a longer MLC leash. In his eyes it would have made his MLC behavior perfectly legit. Though it wasn't my intention, I did hand H a "deadline", an ultimatum of sorts, because I needed to leave the country. Without him, I couldn't afford to stay with my son in the US. I didn't say: "If you don't come back, I will have to relocate." I said: "I need to move, we can figure out a way for you and S to keep in touch and visit." That's when H realized he couldn't behave like a teenager anymore. I know, I know, in MANY of the situations here it doesn't work that way. But in mine it did, and so I say there might be other cases in which it MAY work as well.
My H was (is?) a Boomerang with slightly "clinging" tendencies. I often felt that if it weren't for our son, he'd be a vanisher.
Eva's - I also agree and very much see this in my situation. While we are not on the road to reconciliation, I've noticed a big change in husband's actions and behaviour towards me since I've changed the manner in which I engage him...which has been to completely disengage him on all matters that don't have to do directly with our son. Past attempts to "pave the way" and validate his feelings seemed to give him the gas he needed to ramp up the replay behaviours. He was as his angriest when I engaged him and the urge to "stick it to me" at its greatest.
At this point, I have no urge at all to share anything in my life with him and I really don't care to know what he's up to. At times, he will try to provoke me with actions and veiled threats, which I ignore (actions) and "agree with" (threats I.e. sep agreement "ok, let me know how you'd like to proceed with this" or selling our home "ok, I've been working on a list of things we need to have done to the house to prepare for the sale"), but this has lessened (he has signed off on something this past week that tells me that he sees son and me in this house for another year) and acts of service and gifts (his love languages) are again on the increase. While I validated, these actions and threats happened more frequently but since I've stopped, I find he's calmer, clearer, less intense and "dead" although he'll still find something to pick at (lately Pinterest and FB posts that he takes personally...he really can twist anything and make it all about him) and I respond in my disengaged way and he quickly runs out of gas. I've completely closed off my FB since and changed Pinterest accounts to one he won't be able to find, so I can't imagine what he'll come up with next.
Sorry for the hijack - I've gone on and on just to say that validation and paving the way were not tools that served me very well - polite detachment while putting mine and son's interests first always has been key. Thank you, Eva's, for your insight.
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Since there are those who read not as familiar with RCR's articles, I thought it might be helpful to post a couple of things from the articles for information in the discussion.
From Midlife Crisis Takes Time
Prevention
"What can I do to prevent...?"
"...all else has failed."
This is a common question from a Beginner. It is often asked by an LBS who has not yet read MLC books and resources or had other feedback, or by an LBS who has not accepted or believed the books, resources, stories and feedback. Just as with MLC, Acceptance of the processes of MLC takes TIME.
There is no failure; there is also no prevention. There is impatience and the inability to accept the process of MLC. Regardless of what is healthiest, of what is best, of what you or anyone wants--MLCer included--a Midlife Crisis cannot be prevented. It can be prolonged by an unaccepting LBS. Acceptance can ease it. But once it has begun, the crisis must continue to completion; it is a journey to go through, not get over.
From A Midlife Metaphor
The danger is from those who do not understand and are thus unaccepting of this natural state and seek to fix the problem, through pharmaceuticals or simply denial and unacceptance of observers who yank the midlifer all the way out of the labyrinth. The midlifer thus returns to society with no skin. A vital part of himself remains in the labyrinth and the only way to retrieve it is to enter from the beginning and follow it through to the end.
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DGU,
You fail to see my point. You quote from RCR, and the views accepted and believed here - but I say let's look at OTHER ideas and thoughts.
Can a mid-life crisis be prevented? A quick google led me to a study by Joel R. Sneed of the Dept of Psychiatry at Columbia Uni. According to him it is possible. I also found "10 Things You Can Do to Prevent a Mid-Life Crisis". I have not read it in-depth, I just googled it now, to show you and everyone else that there are other ideas and thoughts out there. And what if it can help someone here? Wouldn't that be great?
Instead of repeating the advice here, which we all can access and which has been helpful to a lot of people (including me), I say let's do more by branching out and looking at alternatives AS WELL. Again, let's not be so rigid.
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Evas, I hear you too and agree a lot. What you are saying does not negate RCR's perspective, it is just the wise suggestion that we take it as the inspiration it is, and just as RCR did, we all find our own way. Being open to discuss what has created change in each of our lives should not throw newbies off track, but give them more power to heal their own lives.
The consistencies I've noticed across the board for reconnections, no matter what the contact type or energy level of the MLCer are:
The LBS becomes confident in themselves
The LBS sheds any condependent tendencies
The LBS finds strength in their intuition
The LBS finds the strength to speak freely in their own power to the MLCer, unaffected by any potential outcome
There is no technique, tactic, or formula more potent than strength and honesty. It's unrealistic to say we do not affect them at all - we are the most important relationship of their adult life, no matter what the outcome. But underlying everything, I have seen from all of your examples that if I know who I am, if I know what I believe, and if I let that be my voice - not my husband, an expert, or even family and friends, as well meaning as they are - what others refer to as miracles will happen in my life. I believe that is the magic of our community, and if anything is to be stressed to newbies, that is it.
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Where is that blasted "LIKE" button when you need it? An excellent discussion today!!!
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The consistencies I've noticed across the board for reconnections, no matter what the contact type or energy level of the MLCer are:
The LBS becomes confident in themselves
The LBS sheds any condependent tendencies
The LBS finds strength in their intuition
The LBS finds the strength to speak freely in their own power to the MLCer, unaffected by any potential outcome
There is no technique, tactic, or formula more potent than strength and honesty. It's unrealistic to say we do not affect them at all - we are the most important relationship of their adult life, no matter what the outcome. But underlying everything, I have seen from all of your examples that if I know who I am, if I know what I believe, and if I let that be my voice - not my husband, an expert, or even family and friends, as well meaning as they are - what others refer to as miracles will happen in my life. I believe that is the magic of our community, and if anything is to be stressed to newbies, that is it.
Copied and pasted this and put it in my notebook! So true.
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http://www.goodtherapy.org/blog/healthy-identity-intimacy-prevents-mid-life-crisis-0106112/
Is it possible to avoid a mid-life crisis? According to a recent study led by Joel R. Sneed of the Department of Psychiatry at Columbia University, it is possible. Identity formation is an essential part of adolescence. Many studies have examined the impact of healthy identity formation on adulthood. But few studies have examined how identity formation throughout adulthood affected well-being in mid-life. “Identity develops as individuals transition into adult roles, such as gainful employment, committed partnerships, and parenting,” said Sneed. “Identity can be developed either through thoughtful consideration of alternative options, or through internalizing ideals espoused by others. In either case, a strong sense of identity appears to facilitate well-being and satisfying committed relationships in adulthood.”
www.sethschwartz.info/pdfs/Racial_Ethnic_Identity_Paper.pdf
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While I was writing away, people said it better and more efficiently so I will just leave in a few things from the new person perspective. I have never taken the RCR articles to be absolutes but more observations of what has worked and an ongoing study of this crisis in order to help people have the tools to survive. Many times the articles even pose questions for thought rather than proclaim any answers. But sometimes, like Evas says, the advice given by others may use the information as if it is an absolute.
The main problem I would see is that there are many different types of situations and many degrees of crisis and there are complications of concurrent medical problems, mental illness or personality disorders with some. So in some cases there really may not be anything even the most perfect person could have done to change things. On the other hand, I think that in a mild crisis there may be ways to act that don't drive the person farther away than they might have gone if a person hadn't gone berserk all over them--yet we do tread lightly discussing that for fear of hurting people's feelings who got dealt a different set of cards. I have met too many people lately who regretted their decision to leave (even proclaiming it on their deathbed) yet felt forced to stay on the road they took as it seemed to be accepted that once something like this happened there was no way back. So I think that Paving the Way is an important concept.
I think it is also clear that RCR did different things at different stages. She did pave the way but she also let loose with the truth darts and put the fear of loss into him later. Some things may not be effective at different stages which is why we might think some things don't work. Few of us have the ability to know exactly what is best to do when. It is a lot of trial and error. I think that is allowed for on this site as some of the advice has been if something isn't working try the opposite. I don't think Evas did things radically different from the advice on here so much as she tweaked it to fit her situation.
But I do hear what Evas is saying. I find myself not responding favorably to what could be attempts at re-connection because all advice tells me that it can't be that as it is too soon. I do get that you can respond but with no expectations and I do acknowledge kindness with appreciation or kindness back. But sometimes he brings up things that seem to be openers to discuss what has happened and I ignore them thinking it would be pressure to discuss the relationship. Of course part of that is my own avoidance due to not feeling ready myself. But I do see him pulling away right now after a period of being very nice, either because I'm not responding as he likes or because he was going to cycle away again anyway. It is enough for me to wonder if it is just the crisis or my behavior. On the other hand nothing I have done has stopped the crisis. It has just mometarily modified the speed and distance of the run a bit.
What Ready to Transform observed is what I saw early on while lurking. While there is no guarantee of success, the people who did succeed did the things she mentioned. And if it didn't result in re-connection they still came out ahead in rebuilding their life. That is what helped me to respond to this situation in the opposite way to how I have reacted to every other break up in my life. I saw the truth in it. I did it at first to get him back and later it evolved into doing it for me but it got me through. Detaching and getting a life are the most valuable survival tools for the person who is left behind--whether by MLC or just plain break up/adultry. So in some ways it doesn't matter if there is a wrong "diagnosis" on the part of an advice giver--the treatment is still sound.
This is too long as usual. It also sounds way too calm so excuse me while I go get momentarily distraught over his latest statement that he doesn't need any friends because he has himself. Never mind, I'm better.
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I think maybe in the case of a midlife transition rather than a full blown crisis, it would be possible to steer them away from total disaster. They would probably be much more open to getting help or working with the spouse through their issues. It seems though that once a full blown crisis gets ahold of them then it just kind of has to run its course. Just an observation.
But I do hear what Evas is saying. I find myself not responding favorably to what could be attempts at re-connection because all advice tells me that it can't be that as it is too soon. I do get that you can respond but with no expectations and I do acknowledge kindness with appreciation or kindness back. But sometimes he brings up things that seem to be openers to discuss what has happened and I ignore them thinking it would be pressure to discuss the relationship. Of course part of that is my own avoidance due to not feeling ready myself. But I do see him pulling away right now after a period of being very nice, either because I'm not responding as he likes or because he was going to cycle away again anyway. It is enough for me to wonder if it is just the crisis or my behavior. On the other hand nothing I have done has stopped the crisis. It has just mometarily modified the speed and distance of the run a bit.
Stillkicking, to me it sounds like these may be touch and goes rather than true reconnection attempts. Hindsight is 20/20 and this seems to be true with MLC as well. I think we often don't realize that they are truly reconnecting until we see consistent, positive movement forward for an extended period of time (i.e. months) and we look back and realize that any changes seem to have "stuck". Just my 0.02.
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How do we recognise a touch and go? I haven't seen any from my H, he has gone and gone! He is here for the children and is quite nice sometimes and others he ignores me or seems grumpy with me and lovely to the kids.
Not sure if I have noticed a touch and go or not. My H is well and truly in love with ow and making a life with her and their business. But then for many months I didn't recognise monster as monster, I hadn't realised that the monster spew I was having slung at me was actually monster spew! I am a slow learner ::)
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Evas, in the articles and blogs posts the LBS it is advised to do a 180, that is to change our approach to the MLCer. The LBS is also encouraged to work on itself.
As for things like “10 Things You Can Do to Prevent a Mid-Life Crisis”, they are normally addressed to a person in midlife who could, possible, have a MLC. If you know any one to be MLCer who would know they are going to be an MLCer, please let me know. All the things I’ve found that claim to be able to prevent, or “cure” MLC are the type of simplistic articles that really don’t have a clue about what a real MLC is.
In that type of articles it is also often common to mistake a Midlife Transition, especially a serious, one, with a MLC.
Joel R. Sneed study say “may” not will. May was what DGU used for MC not working in MLC. He used “may not last” Not “will not last”. And you become upset with it.
And a sample of “182 adults ranging in age between 20 and 54” is a fairly short one. We have more people here than he used on his study. His study also says this “To the extent to which individuals in their 40s continue to maintain a positive and coherent sense of who they are and where their lives are going, they are likely to continue to enjoy warm and intimate relationships in their 50s.” Again, likely, not for sure. Also, we have MLCers whose crisis start way before they were on their 40’s, many whose 40’s were fine and, yet, MLC happened.
More from his article: “Because the so-called ‘midlife crisis’ is essentially a revisiting of identity issues in the 40s and 50s, resolving these identity issues in a coherent and positive way appears to facilitate satisfaction with work, family, and life in general.” There is also this. “the so-called MLC” (one more person that really does not believe in it) and is using 40’s and 50’s. We have people on their 30’s and past their 50’s having MLC.
But Sneed is not talking about ways of dealing with an already existing MLC, he is talking about things that may prevent one from happening in the future. He offers no advice, cures or solutions for an ongoing one. No one that I know, except for this board, does. And not even here there are cures or solutions, only advice (probably because the first two don't exist. Yet) And in these board we do not all have the same views of what mainly causes a MLC.
As far as I’m concerned, MLC is far more than identity issues. It has a neurochemical and hormonal component. Since it has a big neurochemical and hormonal component it should be possivle to mitigate it. Sneed follows RCR, Conway and others that think it is more an identity and development crisis. He does not even move away from that path, nothing new in what he says. He sticks to the normal “identity/development” issues thing, and talks about how if those were well addresses during teenage years and adulthood a MLC may be avoided. MAY, not WILL. Not a word of how MLC has other factors associated to it. A view I consider narrow minded.
Regarding the neurochemical and hormonal side of the crisis, I think if our MLCers were tested, both for blood and brain chemicals, and doctors had any knowledge of what a real MLC is and that it is also associated with imbalances in those things, it would be possible to mitigate it. Of course that would require that, on a very early stage of MLC, someone would have been able to identify it. Since they are on the loose and if they do not accept to be treated I really don’t see much that can be done.
Mr J knew he was depressed before he left. The doctor from the company he worked for and the GM both diagnosed him with depression. Unlike the two previous times he had been depressed, this time he refused help. He also called me (I was already back home) in May 2007, crying, saying he was depressed and needed help. I offer to go the capital, take him to a doctor, or bring him back home to MIL or SIL. Or to ask SIL to do it. He refused. SIL, me and the doctor from the company Mr J worked for, have also insested, since 2005, for Mr J to do thyroid tests. SIL and MIL suffered from hyperthyroidism and they were worried Mr J would suffer as well. Hyperthyroidism provokes many things, among them, depression, lack of sleep, excessive energy, anger.
Since Mr J refused to be tested, to be medicated to depression, to accept any sort of medical help, what do you think it could have been done differently? Two doctos, me, SIL, Mr J best friend, we all tried, none of had any luck.
As for divorce, yes, I think if we had divorced sooner his crisis would be shorter but he is the one who has been dragging the divorce, not me. So, again, what do you suggest? In the beginning, when I did not want a divorce, the crisis carried on, when I want a divorce (since April 2008) the crisis carried on.
Could you please list what ways could help and MLCer coming out of their tunnel fast? Ways that work for most, not for your husband. You said that would have that thing of thinking you had been a bad wife and so on and if you had not, it may had helped your husband. I never had any of it. It did not helped Mr J.
You’re wrong, ways of helping an MLCer coming out of the tunnel faster are not deemed impossible here. We often talk about how divorce the MLCer or remove ourselves from their way may help them to cross their tunnel fast. Still, those things don’t work with all MLCers. And even when they do, the crisis lasts, on average, several years.
But Kikki, a LBS (or even an MLCer) is not aware that an early depression, or a peculiar episode, will, years latter, turn into MLC. It may or it may not. Also, you could have went to therapy with Mr Bursty. It may, or may have not prevented his crisis. But, again, like Sneed article, those are things that may had worked many years before the actual crisis come on. With them in crisis, what do we do speed them on the tunnel, apart from the things we have always talked about here in the baord?
As you guys know I’ve been stuying neuroscience, genetic and going back to Jungian archetypes and other archetypes. So far I have not come across anything that would reduce tunnel time, except if the MCLer would go see a doctor (to be tested for blood and brain chemical levels) and followed the plan the doctor established. But how do we take the MLCer that is the middle of Replay to the doctor?
Well, we could do like with schizophrenics. When they have severe episodes, nurses can be called and they are given a shot, normally of risperidone.
Paving the way sometimes does seem to backfire. I’m more in favour of us to be kind to the MLCer but not to care much about paving the way. At least not in the beginning. It can confuse the LBS and we may be too worried if we are messing up and doing things that will make us loose the MLCer.
“The LBS becomes confident in themselves
The LBS sheds any condependent tendencies
The LBS finds strength in their intuition
The LBS finds the strength to speak freely in their own power to the MLCer, unaffected by any potential outcome”
Yes, very much so, Ready2. But I’ve been doing/having that for years. Where is my husband? ::) ::) ::) And if there is one thing I’ve always done was speak freely with my MLCer, not caring about the outcome. I'm known to throw truth arrows and not care about it. Truth arrows, not insult or be unkind.
Since I’ve done all the change I could, I must, therefore, conclude that Mr J is a lost case. Or is he not?...
Evas, and you do fail to see that things like “ways of preventing MLC” are for inform people, who are not suffering of MLC, of things they could do to prevent a future one. They are not for people in the depths of a MLC, nor for the LBS of such people. Again, the words used on those articles tend to be may not will. You could do all those things and still have a MLC. What then? How would one deal with the crisis in itself? And you are assuming we're not familiar with the articles you have been coming across on google. But several of us are.
Thundarr, you’re a therapist, is there anything you could do to make your wife come out of the tunnel faster? Is there are advice, other than the one we give, that you would give us if we were to see you as patients? What would you tell us to do? How would you approach the person deep in the tunnel? What line of action would you give them? Would they be likely to follow it or not?
TT, most os us, if not all, would not recognise our spouse has having a MLC. It is only in hindsight we manage to get it. And, of course, from then on we’re able to recognise it in others.
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"Reconnection" was a poor choice of words as I didn't mean it as it relates to the stages. I just meant he could be reaching out in a way and I was ignoring him.
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“The LBS becomes confident in themselves
The LBS sheds any condependent tendencies
The LBS finds strength in their intuition
The LBS finds the strength to speak freely in their own power to the MLCer, unaffected by any potential outcome”
Yes, very much so, Ready2. But I’ve been doing/having that for years. Where is my husband? ::) ::) ::) And if there is one thing I’ve always done was speak freely with my MLCer, not caring about the outcome. I'm known to throw truth arrows and not care about it. Truth arrows, not insult or be unkind.
Those are observable consistencies, not tactics or techniques. I believe getting to this point will (and has) created miracles in my life - none of them to date include my husband.
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But Kikki, a LBS (or even an MLCer) is not aware that an early depression, or a peculiar episode, will, years latter, turn into MLC. It may or it may not. Also, you could have went to therapy with Mr Bursty. It may, or may have not prevented his crisis. But, again, like Sneed article, those are things that may had worked many years before the actual crisis come on. With them in crisis, what do we do speed them on the tunnel, apart from the things we have always talked about here in the baord?
Very true Anne. I guess I just look back on that time and wish that I had insisted on therapy. Whether or not it would have mitigated things now, I will never know.
Well, we could do like with schizophrenics. When they have severe episodes, nurses can be called and they are given a shot, normally of risperidone.
When my H was having his psychotic episodes, I was told that no formal help could be obtained without either his approval (not going to happen with someone running away) or unless he was a danger to either himself or others. How do you prove that you think there is a good chance he could take his life, or that the emotional abuse hurled at me was going to stop there, and not continue into physical abuse. (which it didn't thankfully).
So, we're back to the awful situation of the LBS and the children seeing all of those behaviours that osb so eloquently wrote about yesterday, and the MLCer then being firmly masked up in front of others. Or explaining their anxieties away as the trauma involved in leaving their families.
No easy answers here. And I am with you completely - when they are this far gone - stand well back. They are going to take as long as they are going to take, because I also believe that there are many factors at play here, and until they get some clarity and their brains are functioning at least at a level where they can see the damage and they are strong enough to start cleaning it up - they will continue blindly on.
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Those are observable consistencies, not tactics or techniques. I believe getting to this point will (and has) created miracles in my life - none of them to date include my husband.
Agree. I second the part where reaching this point creates miracles in our lives. But Evas was taking about things we could do to speed up the MLCer tunnel, have them back faster, save the marriage and help the MLCer. None of those do. At least not from what we observe. They work, and very well, for the LBS.
We're still left with that could speed up the tunnel/fasten the MLCer crisis.
Speaking from my own personal experience of MLC (or transition or whatever you want to call it) there could have been a point when a lifestyle change or appropriated medical help could do. From a certain point on I had to go out & about and found things for myself.
Must say me and Mr J were talking about to changing our lifestyle, thinking of "white picket fence, 2.5 kids, etc". I keep wanting it, he started with the "I only have now to do this (DJ/clubbing), you'll have the rest of your life for the things you like (reading, study, photography)."
Of course he forgot I cannot have children for the rest of my life.
A little more about my "crisis". I was not surrounded by people who just nod their heads, pat me on the shoulder and say yes, but I was allowed to have a lot of space and freedom. Since, by then, I still wanted a husband, marriage, family, I knew the situation was temporary and it was best to give myself time and space.
But I did not broke a marriage, had OM, hurt Mr J or did the nasty things our MLCers do. So I had no guilt/shame to deal with.
When my H was having his psychotic episodes, I was told that no formal help could be obtained without either his approval (not going to happen with someone running away) or unless he was a danger to either himself or others. How do you prove that you think there is a good chance he could take his life, or that the emotional abuse hurled at me was going to stop there, and not continue into physical abuse. (which it didn't thankfully).
It is the same here, Kikki. With someone that has already been diagnosed with schizophrenia you can call the medics and they will give the shot. If it is a first episode, one has to go to the hospital and it is up to the psychiatrist. Normally, as first measure, some thing to calm the person down will be give and then the doctors will decide. Of course if the person runs way we cannot take them to the hospital.
So, we're back to the awful situation of the LBS and the children seeing all of those behaviours that osb so eloquently wrote about yesterday, and the MLCer then being firmly masked up in front of others. Or explaining their anxieties away as the trauma involved in leaving their families.
We are. OSB wrote brilliantly about it. I think the mask the MLCer manages to use in front of others can be confusing for LBS. How do they manage? They look so normal with others but so crazy with us. However, the simple fact they are doing things they wouldn’t normally do should tell us something is wrong with them. MLCers do have some level of control. The same if true for several psychiatric disorders. And think of the alcoholic that beats the wife every night but is a model employee and a nice guy and none one believes the wife because they have never seen him at home, alone with her.
No easy answers here. And I am with you completely - when they are this far gone - stand well back. They are going to take as long as they are going to take, because I also believe that there are many factors at play here, and until they get some clarity and their brains are functioning at least at a level where they can see the damage and they are strong enough to start cleaning it up - they will continue blindly on.
Too many factor for a simple answer. When they are this far gone, either they come to a point they are capable of clean up and be strong enough to face what they have done, or they don’t. Most reach that point. The irony, as we all know, is that the more they run, the more mess they cause, the more they need to run from, the more guilt and shame they have. If only they would stop, change their lifestyle, and calm down a bit…
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AnneJ,
First of all, it takes a lot more than the quote from DUG to upset me! I smiled when I read it because it was in a way so predictable, of course since the H is in MLC it "may" not work...
What I am saying, and I wish instead of nitpicking you'd see my overall point here, is that LET US TRY TO BE A BIT OPEN! Is that so difficult? Or is it dangerous because it upsets some order or something? I don't know how to put it for you to understand - but maybe you do, but you just insist that I am dead wrong? And if so, it doesn't matter either. What matters to me, is that we pass on alternative ideas to people who come here and are, often, desperate. A story where something generally thought of as impossible here has become possible - would that be so harmful to present? There's a lack of reconnection/reconciliation stories here. Don't you wonder why? I am not going to be afraid to post what worked for ME. I am also not going to be afraid to post what did NOT work for ME. In the hopes that others will too, and that it will in the long run be helpful.
I am not suggesting you should do/not do anything at all in your situation. In fact I am not suggesting ANYONE here should do or not do anything. That's YOUR decision, and their too. I am just suggesting we are OPEN for other ideas, that we don't SLAM anyone who tries or is interested in trying alternative ideas. And that we make this a place where they can feel utterly free to post their reconnection stories. This is a bumpy road for all of us, AnneJ. I can't suggest ways that work for most. I can only tell people what worked for ME. But perhaps what worked for me MAY work for others too? I am not a doctor, AnneJ, I cannot perform miracles.
Did you read what I wrote earlier: I said a quick google led me to these two articles, among many. I am not saying to take either one of them as gospel (again let us not be overly rigid here now, OK?), but I said to be open for the possibility that curbing or preventing a MLC may be possible. In every case? No.
Perhaps you're right, perhaps there is a discussion that it is possible to help the MLCer exit the tunnel faster and I have missed it. I know only that this is part of what greeted me, and most people, when I got here: "You can not do anything to control this trip." And versions of it. Personally, I don't believe in that anymore. Does this mean I dismiss everything on this site? Absolutely not. And OP has been and is extremely helpful to me. It's fine, because in his greeting there's also one of the best pieces of advice I have ever been given: "He has given you a gift. It is time!!Use the time wisely to make yourself a better person." Again AnneJ I wish you'd want to hear what I am saying: "Let's open up some. Let us not be so rigid. Let us make this a place where ideas can flow."
I'm happy for you that you're studying neuroscience. That's great! I have no studies backing me up, I am just a writer, I have only my own story as an example, that's all I can put out there. But for some perhaps that's inspiration enough!
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Speaking from my own personal experience of MLC (or transition or whatever you want to call it) there could have been a point when a lifestyle change or appropriated medical help could do. From a certain point on I had to go out & about and found things for myself.
Ditto. I can honestly say that were it not for the extreme regimen of supplements I take daily, and started in on when Hoss left, I may have continued to spiral out of control. I know this because I just skipped them for two days. I am up to about 29-30 various pills per day (I don't do a multi-vitamin, which accounts for probably the bulk of the individual things I take so I can control the dosage). When I started, it was probably under 20 - the rest include hormone stabilizing, neurotransmitter regulating amino acids and roots. The first day I didn't take them - I felt a little off, but not in a way I couldn't function or anything. By today, I was very angry for no reason, I felt a burning in my arms, and a permeating sadness that felt just like pre-BD.
This is just who I am - probably a personality disorder that ramped up in the stress between our financial/business problems, the bcps I was on, and Hoss' problems. I really don't know. When I was a tiny child I would be a perfect angel at school, I was very shy and reserved. When I would get angry at home I would have epic tantrums where I would usually hurt myself. I had versions of this throughout my life that in looking back, I can see form a pattern of covert rage when I didn't live up to my own expectations.
I have not felt like that in the two years I've been on my regimen (except when I go off of them for a few days). That is a very short amount of time to have a relapse back into it - but it mitigates just as quickly. This is why, AnneJ, I very much agree with you on the fact that if natural chemicals are behind it, natural chemicals can mitigate it. Not cure - but care for.
Now, what got me to start taking them? That's the big question, and where I look to a God/Universe/however you view it that looked kindly on me and dropped the inspiration in my spirit. Or, from a scientific angle, the nutrients I was lacking that my subconscious mind knew finally had the clear channel to put that in my consciousness with Hoss gone. So there's that unknown factor, too. ;)
What I am saying, and I wish instead of nitpicking you'd see my overall point here, is that LET US TRY TO BE A BIT OPEN! Is that so difficult? Or is it dangerous because it upsets some order or something? I don't know how to put it for you to understand - but maybe you do, but you just insist that I am dead wrong? And if so, it doesn't matter either. What matters to me, is that we pass on alternative ideas to people who come here and are, often, desperate. A story where something generally thought of as impossible here has become possible - would that be so harmful to present? There's a lack of reconnection/reconciliation stories here. Don't you wonder why? I am not going to be afraid to post what worked for ME. I am also not going to be afraid to post what did NOT work for ME. In the hopes that others will too, and that it will in the long run be helpful.
I for one am very grateful you are standing up on this issue, evas. And I am probably not the only one who is reading both Anne and Evas wanting the same thing out of this forum, just a different way of stating it. I think with all of our input, there is a balance of information.
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What I see is that if someone does say something worked for them then it can cause pain in someone else as if it is an accusation that they didn't do something they could have done. It brings on a defensive stance. And most on here are so aware of the pain that they don't want to add to it.
I agree that many MCLers are are in a place that no one but a higher being can reach. But it shouldn't keep us from discussing the less extreme cases where actions might have an effect--even if those actions can't affect the tunnel progress but just lead to better communication. If someone had a reconciliation than they deserve a bit of credibility even if what they did might not work for most. It deserves examination even if it happened in spite of what they think they did. Even if it only helps one person to discover a key to their particular situation then the sharing would have been worth it. We all just have to be careful not to take it as a personal failure if we don't get the same results. It would be interesting if Evas's husband was willing to share what he thought of her actions.
Ready2 I would laugh at your 32 supplements but immediately after BD a friend gave me a sample bottle of a supplement she was selling that had a lot of Tumeric in it and I didn't go into my usual 10 year pine away abandonment death spiral. I couldn't afford to buy any more of it and I didn't plummet but one has to wonder.....
Hope you haven't given up on us Thundarr.
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For me emotional pain has been a big factor in how I have responded to the break up of my marriage. I am aware that I should keep communication open etc but I find it so painful to hear about ow and his desire to involve her in my family. Non contact, except about the children, is the only way I can get through. He doesn't contact me for any reason at all.
So I wonder if I was stronger emotionally and able to communicate better whether it would help my chances for reconciliation? But then he came for Xmas and Easter and I was lovely and kind and made meals and we went for a walk as a family and he was just so unhappy and tired and didn't want to be around me. So I guess I have tried everything and nothing works!
What we are dealing with are individuals, MLCers are all different, LBSs are all different and their dynamic in their R are all different. So it can't be a one size fits all approach. But we can take generalisations and give advice based upon that.
I think ready2 is right, those of us who are able to gain confidence in ourselves and our intuition of our situation fare well regardless of what happens. It's the advice given to us when we first arrive, focus on you.
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Ready2 I would laugh at your 32 supplements but immediately after BD a friend gave me a sample bottle of a supplement she was selling that had a lot of Tumeric in it and I didn't go into my usual 10 year pine away abandonment death spiral. I couldn't afford to buy any more of it and I didn't plummet but one has to wonder....
Hehehe...seriously, I saw this earlier and it really hits home:
(https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/934755_194686444019526_1383946182_n.jpg)
And Turmeric - 500mg, $6 at Walmart (noticed last time I was there): http://www.walmart.com/ip/Spring-Valley-90-Capsules-500-mg-Ea.-Turmeric-Herbal-Supplement-90-ct/11047686
My entire huge ensemble of pills costs less per month than probably one pharmaceutical equivalent of any of them.
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So I wonder if I was stronger emotionally and able to communicate better whether it would help my chances for reconciliation? But then he came for Xmas and Easter and I was lovely and kind and made meals and we went for a walk as a family and he was just so unhappy and tired and didn't want to be around me. So I guess I have tried everything and nothing works!
I would look at that more as a reflection on the state of your MLCer rather than a lack of anything on your part. I don't think you should have to communicate if it hurts you, other than for children or finances or what is necessary. I'm thinking more in terms of say, I didn't truck all his stuff over to the OWs and throw it on her lawn like I had wanted to. One may not be able to communicate if they won't let us but we don't have to blow up any chances of ever wanting to communicate again--unless that is what we want. But I agree with what you say. One size may not fit all.
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What I see is that if someone does say something worked for them then it can cause pain in someone else as if it is an accusation that they didn't do something they could have done. It brings on a defensive stance. And most on here are so aware of the pain that they don't want to add to it.
SK, this is very true. This whole thing is a constant dance - but I would agree - for any of you wonderful people who have reconciled out there - while we are really really keen to hear about it, and what you felt made a difference for you in your situations - if there is even so much of a hint of school marmish 'this is how it should be done - it worked for me, so if only you would do this, it would work for you too', then it stings like an electric shock, because we may have already have tried it earlier on numerous occasions, and for us, it may not have worked - or worse - backfired completely - and enraging monster and we are still trying to pay off the legal costs because of it.
I agree that many MCLers are are in a place that no one but a higher being can reach. But it shouldn't keep us from discussing the less extreme cases where actions might have an effect--even if those actions can't affect the tunnel progress but just lead to better communication. If someone had a reconciliation than they deserve a bit of credibility even if what they did might not work for most. It deserves examination even if it happened in spite of what they think they did. Even if it only helps one person to discover a key to their particular situation then the sharing would have been worth it. We all just have to be careful not to take it as a personal failure if we don't get the same results.
Yes, yes and yes again.
I do believe that there does need to be an acknowledgement that there are MLCers on the board who range from mild to extreme in their crisis (having witnessed one of each in my H - the second one being more akin to a character in a horror movie), their behaviours and the damage that they are doing to their families. To gloss over this can lead to hurt on both sides of the LBS spectrum.
;D Love that Medicine synopsis Ready2 :)
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But I have nothing against things that work even if they are different from what is normally said here. I’m even one who has different view from what is (or was) standard in the board. I do not think MLC is just a FOO/development/identity thing, I think there are other things at stake. That goes “against” RCR basic ideas, yet, she was open enough to allow me to express my views and I often talk about in on threads, even newbies ones.
You know one person whose husband is in MLC and therapy is working. Excellent. Most here who tried were not so lucky. What should be said to newbies? That in most cases MC does not work with and MLCer, or that in most cases MC works with and MLCer? We say that in most cases it does not work, we don’t say it never works.
When newbies say they want to give it a try at MC, we say go for it, but if it does not work, don’t beat yourself up because in most cases it does not.
Don’t think that makes us close to new ideas…
Debating possible ways of mitigating a MLC is different from controlling the trip.
You have agreed to divorce your husband, detached, gave him time. So have many others here have. Why did it work for you and not for others?
Maybe because not all MLCers are alike and some crisis take longer than others.
Why don’t we have more reconciliations? The board is not that old, most MLCs take a long time. Many LBS give up or move forward. Also, there are people who reconcile but do not return to post about it.
Why do you think it is? Because the advice is bad? Is it better in other boards devoted to real MLC (again, many blogs, articles, boards, call MLC to midlife transition)? Is the success rate of a board as new as this higher? What do you suggest that is changed and how is that going to affect the outcome?
RCR thinks that the MLCer has to live the crisis to the end and nothing can be done. She got her husband, and marriage, back. How do you explain that? We have you (and me and a few others) who thing something can be done. Not all of us who think that way have our spouses back. We have RCR and others who think it is a developmental issue and it must run its course. Some of those have their spouses back. So, what is the way to go?...
There is certainly a wide range of ways of thinking and views in the board. Maybe you have not noticed, but there is.
Your story is inspiration as are the ones of many here.
I’m sorry if you are perceiving me as closed. That is an irony since I’ve always thought MLC can be mitigated and have had many heated discussions with other board members because of it. I have a scientific mind. If you tell me you have one case where it is working I’m going to be interested but I will tend to see what seems to work better for most cases. I will also want to know why a particular case is working with things that are different if the situation is the same. But that requires info. We have no info on your friend’s husband. That is, we do not know why therapy is working for him, only that it is working. Could you please provide more info? What makes his case different from most here?
32 supplements, Ready2? :o :o :o That is huge lot of supplements… ;D ;D
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My friend is NotGivingUpOnU, and her therapist helped me in a BIG way. I am in the US, NotGivingUpOnU is in Europe but she passed along info after each of her therapy sessions. I will let her speak for herself about her H and her and their therapy, should she want to. The amazing this when she and I hooked up, was that I felt there was a lightness about her (NotGivingUP), she didn't take this whole MLC business so seriously, which was unbelievable to me as I at times was feeling near suicidal. She believed there was a way out, she believed, and she had access to a therapist who believed too.
Me too, I hope my H one day will share his thoughts. We are not that far along yet.
Kikki, that's the one thing that must be avoided at all costs: "This is how it should be done." One size certainly does not fit all. That's why I say: The more ideas, thoughts, and "solutions" the better off we all are.
I didn't agree to divorce my husband, I never brought up the issue, I gave him a certain period of time, during which I detached. And then I did what is generally perceived as BIG TIME pressure, not because I wanted to but because I HAD to for financial reasons: I told him I would have to relocate back to Europe where I am from. It is my belief that my H took that as a chance, or excuse if you will, to come back.
Of course not MLCers are the same! Again that's why I say: Let's present and explore other ideas! Let's not be so stuffy as to say: "That's not for the kind of MLC we deal with here." How do you or I or anyone know what kind of MLCer we are dealing with when a newbie first arrives?
Why no more reconciliation stories? I hear this all the time: Because the board is too young. Well, that may be the case, but also I think there's a fear in the LBSer to report back, a fear because he or she may feel that they have to be reconnected for years and years first, and as Stayed stated on my thread: Once they are over that, they are also over the board.
I will not add anymore to this discussion. I wish all of you the best and you are all in my prayers.
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I’m glad for NotGivingUpOnU that therapy is working for her and her husband. Is she would be willing to, it would be interesting to heard her.
More than having access to a therapist that believed there was a way out (and that, from what we know/hear is rare), NotGivingUpOnU had a husband who accept to go, and stay, in therapy. A thing not many here have.
Will be looking forward to your husband thoughts when he will share them.
Stayed husband did something similar to your husband. When he realised he could really loose her, he returned. But sadly it does not work with every MLCer. I’ve been pressuring for divorce for years, want to remarry and have a family. Mr J still drags the divorce. He does not divorce and he does not get out of crisis. Maybe he is stuck but I don’t really believe that.
I don’t think one has to be reconnecting for years and years first. In fact I was thinking of posting about RCR blog post where she talks about one year apart if the MLCer have lived with OW. For me that is up to each LBS. To what we are comfortable with.
For me, stop posting if reconciliation happens, I think it would be more along the line I’ve reconciled, I may not be up to keep around since I have a husband to enjoy. This may leave us in the dark about the latter stages and the reconciliation stories but I find it normal that a LBS may want to leave the MLC nightmare aside and stop posting.
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The amazing this when she and I hooked up, was that I felt there was a lightness about her (NotGivingUP), she didn't take this whole MLC business so seriously, which was unbelievable to me as I at times was feeling near suicidal. She believed there was a way out, she believed, and she had access to a therapist who believed too.
This is where I find this synchronicity to be amazing.
You both connected and were such incredible support for each other, and your H's both came home with a couple of weeks of each other.
I do not believe that is a fluke. Your H's were possibly on similar places on the MLC spectrum.
We each tend to gravitate towards other LBS that we feel sympatico with, for a variety of reasons.
I believe this is what helps us through our individual journeys without going completely insane ourselves.
It is so lovely to hear to things are going well for you Evas. Wishing you and your family all the very best and looking forward to hearing more one day in the future.
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evas, to me it sounds like you did what you had to do not as a 'tactic', but because it was what you had to do. I remember you posting about it at the time.
I think that was the difference -- if we, any of us, try someone else's methods as a 'tactic', it has a very good chance of backfiring. If it is honest and true to ourselves, and we really do let go of the outcome, it's a very different scenario.
That is what your sitch sounds like.
And I agree with kikki about the synchronicity with NGU...
I, too, wish you all the best, and am truly glad that things are working the way you both want them to.
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Hi everyone,
Anne J, I’m reading and re reading evas posts on this thread and she never said me and my H are in MC, she said we are in Therapy. It’s an individual therapy. With the same therapist. And my H didn’t accept to go, he started therapy on his own initiative 5 weeks post BD as he didn’t feel better after leaving me , the cause of all what was wrong with his life. Deep down he felt he has a problem. 3 months later, actually after I found out about the OW he quit therapy. He resumed it again after we got back together in November last year. And is doing great, he’s dealing with his issues, he’s aware what has caused his feelings of inadequacy and he’s dealing with his rejection issues.
According to my therapist, who’s a clinical psychologist, and does believe in CRISIS, (She refuses to call it MLC.) there has to be underlying emotional issue, unresolved childhood trauma or a disorder present for the crisis to develop. My H has NPD.
At midlife we all go through some sort of transition and in emotionally balanced people it doesn’t end in crisis. And her experience is that person in crisis can benefit from psychotherapy. The person has to be willing and ready to deal with the issues of course. MLCers are in pain and they do what kids do, point fingers and blame others.
But hey, that’s nothing you don’t know already.
What worked for me was that I took all the advice from my therapist very seriously and I played the game at first, I was behaving exactly how she told me to behave. She was warning me that I need to accept and detach and it has to be genuine as he’ll know I’m bluffing. And nothing worked until I did genuinely detach and stopped paying attention to a little dance he was doing. I was cordial but only wanted to discuss our S. I become bulletproof to his spewing and it all nicely ricochet in his direction. Soon he started changing and I can pinpoint the day he looked my direction. He got scared he will lose me. Same as Evas H and same as Stayed’s H.
I will start my own thread with the advice I got from the therapist. One of them was to do the relationship autopsy. Also “be careful to fly under the radar. Never validate anything you don’t agree with. Stop holding his ankles, let him have his freedom, give him plenty of what he wants and more on the top.”
I’m gone off the topic here, what my friend wanted to say is that the first posts delivered to newbies could be a little harsh as they are scared and confused and then they learn there’s no way out. While no one knows for sure that there isn’t a way out.
One thing that freaked me out and that’s why I don’t post much, is that I was left under impression that ppl here don’t believe my reconnection and reconciliation counts as it’s out of the usual time frame. It turned me into MLC police officer who’s observing my H and waiting for him to take a hike any day. Although it’s 10 months since he expressed his wish to come home and nearly 7 months since we reconciled. He opened up and told me exactly how he felt while at the rock bottom. And I know for sure his MLC didn’t started at BD, so I don’t think it’s fair to say that 2-7 years counts from the BD, which I’m almost 100% sure that I’ve read here on forum. My h was in MLC since at least 2009, if not 2007.Us LBSs feel it was the sudden change at BD, just cause of the shock we get, but if you start looking back you too will realize that’s not the case for the great majority of us. I did realize, even looking through the photos from 2010 (when I thought we were blissfully happy yet I was walking on eggshells) that he looked miserable.
That’s just my view, everyone is different, every crisis is different too.
I wish you all to get your miracles xx
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Hi NotGivingUpOnU
Thanks so much for posting. Really looking forward to reading more about your situation and the advice you received from your therapist.
The guidelines in terms of timeframes, from what I understand are 2-7 years on average, for the whole crisis. With replay being up to 2+years post BD within that.
As you say, every crisis is different and every person in crisis is different.
That is just a general guideline of averages.
BD for me was Feb 2010, with a few years of very strange and detached behaviour prior to this, that my H couldn't/wouldn't explain.
Thanks, I hope we all get our miracles too, and really looking forward to hearing more from your therapist. It seems rare to find a therapist with such insight into (no offence to the therapists on the board) or interest in crises.
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Not sure if you have read this NGUOU, but this is HeartsBlessing's 6 stages of MLC, with a general guideline of timeframes. From post #7 if you scroll down on this thread.
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=4.0
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I just realized this has been split off into two threads. It seems I started a chain reaction here...
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As a newbie BD March 2013 I can look back and pinpoint exactly when MLC started. It was when he decided to buy the first sailing boat and became dissatisfied and bought a larger boat which is still in the USA about 5/6 years ago. He attempted three times to sail back across the Atlantic over four years and each time had to turn back. I knew then but didn't take it that seriously thinking that the last time was the "stopping point" and he would return to normality. But last year on my 50th big bash - he was very difficult and remote not just to me but guests refusing photos etc... but gave in when my daughters nagged. He also wanted gave up the other thing that he was exceptionally good at (music) stating that he should retire from performing as much as 5 years ago too! But the biggest point leading to the bomb drop is that he is the same age his dad was when he died right in front of him. He has already said that when that date is over (later this year) and he is still alive perhaps he can start living again. He has been incredibly fatalistic over the last 5/6 years ever he since he hit 50. It's such a pity and so frustrating that I failed to really understand his thinking. MLC is a dis-ease and should be shouted about as much as possible prevent other marriages crumbling.... As a newbie - I do find some of the info re length of MLC especially replay worrying and wonder if I can STAND for that long but then I think that if I can put up with what he has thrown at me for the last five years without tactics then perhaps I can endure a little longer with tactics.
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Hi NotGivingUpOnU thank you for dropping by and telling your story. No, Evas never said MC, it was me, and I think DGU who explained that what we tend to tell newbies that MC does not work in MLC.
I'm glad your experience with therapy is positive. What you say about he had went on his own post BD has happened with other spouses here (and some MLCers even went before BD). Leaving therapy for a while also seems to happen a lot. Resume it after they return is also common. Sassy husband that has returned is also in therapy and things are working for the two of them as well.
However, what does not seem to happen, is that an MLCer will remain in therapy for the all of the crisis. From what you say your own husband stop going to therapy, after BD, for a certain amount of time and during the most part of the time he spend with OW.
That is the same we already knew. The way Evas was speaking it was sounding like you and your husband had been in therapy for the whole of his crisis and that therapy was working for him while in replay and away from you. After an MLCer returns therapy works (I wrote it several times on my posts in this discussion). So, what we tend to say, still stands, therapy does not work while and MLCer is in replay and MLCers often abandon therapy during the depth of the crisis.
Glad to know your therapist believes in crisis but it saddens me she refuses to call it a MLC. Yes, we already know there have to be issues even if I think the issues are for more of neurochemical and hormonal order than of emotional one. Or better, the latter alone would not cause a MLC. But I'm more inclined towards neuroscience and genetic than psychology.
I'm not so certain there has to be an underlying disorder. Personality disorders arrive in mid teens to early adulthood, they don't come up all of a sudden on a latter age (schizophrenia and epilepsy are different, they can come to be with a head bang or other situations) and most of us did not have MLCer with any previous disorder.
But we never say there is no way out. What you have just wrote confirms what we say, MLCers tend to abandon therapy when the crisis get worst and many resume it once they return. So far no one has reported of have an MLCer that remained in therapy during the whole of Replay or that therapy has reduced the crisis. Your husband went back to therapy after he returned, he was willing, it is working. Our advice was/is correct.
I agree a person in crisis can benefit from therapy, but like you said, and we always say, the person has to be willing. Most of our MLCers aren't. Or not yet. What I was asking Evas how do you make someone who is not willing to get help only has one answer: you don't.
She was warning me that I need to accept and detach and it has to be genuine as he’ll know I'm bluffing. And nothing worked until I did genuinely detach and stopped paying attention to a little dance he was doing.
Many of us here have done it, and it was genuine, but our spouses haven't yet returned. So that alone does not bring every MLCer back/out of the tunnel. I think it depends of the MLCer and the severity of their crisis.
One thing that freaked me out and that's why I don't post much, is that I was left under impression that ppl here don’t believe my reconnection and reconciliation counts as it’s out of the usual time frame. It turned me into MLC police officer who’s observing my H and waiting for him to take a hike any day. Although it’s 10 months since he expressed his wish to come home and nearly 7 months since we reconciled. He opened up and told me exactly how he felt while at the rock bottom.
You have to understand that your husband's crisis was, since BD, very short and mild compared with the ones of most our MLCers. It is natural that people who are used to see their MLCers come and go for years, or who have spouses in Replay for 3,4,5, 6 years find it a little peculiar your husband had returned so soon. Some MLCers may take a hike, some may not. Most MLCers take longer than your husband and many come and go. If you read through the threads you will see it on the stories.
And I know for sure his MLC didn’t started at BD, so I don’t think it’s fair to say that 2-7 years counts from the BD, which I’m almost 100% sure that I’ve read here on forum. My h was in MLC since at least 2009, if not 2007.Us LBSs feel it was the sudden change at BD, just cause of the shock we get, but if you start looking back you too will realize that’s not the case for the great majority of us. I did realize, even looking through the photos from 2010 (when I thought we were blissfully happy yet I was walking on eggshells) that he looked miserable.
MLC does not start at BD. That is very clear in RCR articles and blog posts. On average it starts 12-36 months before BD. On average an whole midlife crisis last 3-7 years. On average. So, if 3 is on the average, it is logical an MLCer crisis can start 12 months before BD, Replay last one year, and the last part of the crisis another.
But yes, here there is a tendency to count from BD. Mainly because of what you said, many times only in hidsight it is possible to realise when things have started for the MLCer. I always knew things started before BD for Mr J but I do not know the exact date. I tend to put the beginning of his crisis at the Summer of 2005.
Since we're nearly on the Summer of 2013 that was almost 8 years ago and he remains deep in Replay. Some crisis take longer than others.
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But yes, here there is a tendency to count from BD.
We are counting the replay portion only though, when we do this.
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I wish I had known about mlc when my h first started with it.
My h first left with a bd september/november 2005, he was away from our home living in a flat for 9weeks I think he was a pure clinger but no known ow and I literally seduced him and wooed him home.
I thought the following years were fine but looking back I think he stayed in a kind of mild replay, we went on a lot of holidays and went to concerts, went out a lot doing things we both thought we hadnt done in a long time from when the children were young, generally having fun to re vamp our relationship, thinking it was stale and that was his problem.
He did once or twice say did I really say that after some of what happened the first time, but he would thank me profusely for letting him come home, a close friend of his died april 2009 and 2nd bd was January 2011 three days after his 50th birthday.
He said that he felt like he was in a tunnel and although he didnt regret coming home the last time he didnt think he should have.
Now that I know about mlc its almost like he subconsciously knows he has to go right through and nothing seems to be stopping him this time.
The thing is had we been able to be aware of mlc and looked at why it happened the first time, I wonder if he could have looked at his issues and sorted himself out without the full works of where he is now.
Evas and Notgivinguponu I wish you all the best in this I hope you can sort it and not end up back in it, I didnt even know about mlc until a while after 2nd bd, I can only think that the awareness is giving you that chance and the fact that you know your husbands need to face up to their inner demons, whereas I just continued merrilly thinking everything was fine.
It will be good for everyone if you can keep us updated, i really think everyone wants more happy endings but the fact that some people have thought things were turning around only for it to go bad again, makes people post warnings, nobody wants anyone hurt like mlc does to the lbs.
x
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Anne my H is having therapy. He told me during mediation he is seeing a therapist to sort out how he feels about his parents divorce. He also had hypnotherapy to get him to fly in an aeroplane. This was a few months after he left, he was quite full on. Blamed me and his deep unhappiness in the r for never tackling his phobia.
So although he's in high energy replay, he's calmed down a lot lately, he has been having therapy. He said he would get therapy just before he left . It was part of us sorting out our problems in our marriage. He told me he was scared he would find out he was an a$$hole. I didn't know he was having an affair then. He left a few weeks later.
I think the therapy he is having is validating his decision to leave me. I have a feeling he sees his R with me as him getting together with someone who reminded him of his mother, kind of Freudian. He said before he left, his friend, and the latest guy he is trying to emulate, told him he should see a jungian therapist. I would imagine a jungian therapist would encourage the whole individuation process and promote individual happiness. It's sad that when a person talks about difficulties in a marriage the other partner is not able to have an input.
Nguoy thank you so much for sharing your experience. I would be really interested to hear more of what your therapist advised.
TT x
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I have been reading all the various sides and decided to add what I have observed from my situation.
Brief summary BD 8/10, clinging boomerang, currently home rebuilding our marriage. As you can see my H was on the short end of the spectrum of timelines. I can understand that one can feel hesitant to express that their relationship is progressing and that their spouse is farther along than is expected by others. I too , did feel that from some on this board. I'm sure some still believe my H will go to back to replay, leave again, etc. But I think the point is, for me, that I'm the one living it. I'm not out to prove to anyone that we are healing together. I journal it like many others to show what is happening to me. I'm sure there are friends around us that might still have a strong opinion about us together after my H's affair. That's OK. I accept that...everyone has a right to their view.
I never felt there were MLC rules, there were guidelines. I never felt the advise given was too harsh, just opinions from many wonderful people going through the same thing with various degrees of crisis, personality types, etc. As in any other situation in life, you take what advise suits you and discard the rest. I was told this many times on this forum. At times, some advise, I did not like, yet much of the warnings I received, actually came true. Others didn't. There really isn't any Rigidity...just spectrum of times and stages. Not all LBS's will even see all the stages mentioned that the MLCer might go through.
What this site did was give me strength, a place to learn great coping and communication techniques to use with my MLCer and everyone else in my life, and vent my experiences. This in turn, gave me a chance to keep the door open to the possibility of restoring my marriage. The rest was out of my hands. It took my H wanting to return. I believe that you could take the same exact BD date, type of MLCer, do the same exact thing I did and you will get a different outcome each and everytime. It's human nature...we are all uniquely different.
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I agree that each situation is unique.
Evas, NGUOU, wondering, and all the others -- I am thrilled that your spouses have returned. Really, truly. And I don't have any words about it not being for real or anything like that. I know other situations where it hasn't taken many many years as well.
Mine is taking years. And he's not a clinger, although he has cycled back towards me between OWs. Now it's very possible that he left very near the beginning of the situation; I wasn't walking on eggshells for years beforehand. I can pinpoint the day when something snapped and he was very different. And it wasn't even a year before BD.
And mine has cycled and run and run again. But that's him. I can't control that. RCR told me that what I was doing might well have worked wonders in another situation, but my H is who he is. All I can do is live my own life and make it the best I can.
I've done huge things since BD, including re-training, starting a new career, taking a couple of years to deal with my own fears, anxieties and low-level depression, and more. The list goes on. All good.
None of it MAKES my spouse want to return, but should he choose to do so, I'm a better person. And a better mother to my children, who really are my priority right now.
I have an MLCer who is now again monstering at me, I'm much, much better equipped to deal with it than I was at the beginning when he was first doing it. Actually, he's worse than at the beginning. We had a long quiet period in the middle when i thought I could do something; perhaps by trying to do so I prolonged the process, I don't know. We'll only ever know in hindsight.
I could blame myself (or indeed, congratulate myself) until the cows come home, but it is true that we have to go through it, there really isn't any way round. And everyone's ''through'' is that bit different.
Every single reconciled couple I've ever talked to or known of say the same thing as wondering does: it took the spouse wanting to come home.
My H saw a therapist a couple of times, but he wasn't receptive. Once he said that they just asked questions (he wasn't ready or willing to answer), the other time I think he went to try to convince the therapist of his POV. In the future? who knows.
I do remember, though, back at the beginning (way before this forum, before I even found RCR's site, which may not even have existed then) that I had absolutely no idea that it could take a long time, and it would have been good if the therapist at the beginning had said that I should settle in for a long haul (I even had that idea myself) rather than telling me it would be over in 6 months. It took me a long time, and talking to many LBS (in RL or online) for me to get the reality. Would I have detached sooner if I had got it? Again, who knows. We each have to do this at our own pace.
What I do appreciate most, however, is the idea that moving forward does not have to mean getting a new partner right away, that it really means figuring out what is best for your life, and that of your children.... and truly getting me to understand the meaning of Standing.
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My comment reflects what most have written. I feel that this site helps us realize that there is no same size fits all!
I am the ultimate optimist! I also believe that God gets the last say regardless :)
When all this started for me, I was lost, shattered and groping to find which way was up - the articles helped me make some sense of what was happening, they also gave me hope, which had somehow been displaced in the whirlwind bearing down on me.
Slowly, I learnt that I had to detach, respond rather than react, stop obsessing, stop leaning towards my h., extricate myself from my children's relationship with their father, and all the while without giving up hope... it is still a work in progress - I now know that my hope is in the Lord and that all things work towards the good of those who love Him.
I still wonder why it is taking so long ::) ::) ::)but this site helps me see that timelines can be very different even if we take similar paths because really, it is not what we do or don't do that determines how long our spouses take in that tunnel of theirs. On the other hand, we need to find our own way regardless of the path our spouses are taking currently and this is where I have found this site to be so helpful.
Really, each case is unique and we do well to respect it. I feel that this site does exactly that!
I just wanted to say that one of the best pieces of advice from here is No Expectations!
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ARGH, this barely fits in a single post—so long post ahead!
When H came back home last year, I spent a long, long time watching for god only knows what signs, expecting him to pack up and leave any day. I actually prepared myself for that, as I'd been told this was just a touch and go, it was much too soon, it was, basically, "hopeless". So I watched and watched.
This is a common danger. You had expectations and though in general the people here are great at warning against expectations there is at the same time a covert/unintentional undertone that incites expectation. This is part of the tightrope balancing act we do. I have seen so many LBSs crushed by what they feel is a 2nd Bomb Drop after their spouse came home only to leave again and I have seen others who were not crushed by the same experience because they learned that premature returns are common to infidelity and so even if they did not expect it, they were emotionally prepared for it; they were grateful for the warning/knowledge.
So that brings me to a dilemma that used to send me into analysis paralysis. If Chuck comes home and I know that there is a possibility it’s not really over and he may run again am I by that knowledge having an expectation? Am I then approaching the situation Acting As If? Basically am I manifesting the negative by believing it can happen—not that it will, but simply that it can? Is it better to have no warnings at all? Most people around here don’t seem to think so and if that truly is the case I would rather err on the side of upsetting the few who would rather not have the warnings than those who are appreciative—since I don’t know who those people are ahead of time.
Looking back, I do question the rigidity of some advice given here at times, and the sometimes harsh way with which it is being delivered. "Sorry honey but this is going to take a decade to solve". It's not that black and white. Nobody knows for sure how long a midlife crisis takes.Actually, my friend's therapist who believes in MLC and is treating both my friend and her MLC H, rolled her eyes when she heard how long we believe MLC takes here.
Well you quoted some timeline that we certainly don’t use here as an example and we offer a range rather than a set time. MLC averages 2-7 years. Chuck's was ~3.5 years from Bomb Drop to the end of the affair. Therapists are just like the rest of us—many are skeptical about MLC and so I don’t consider eye-rolling as anything credible. Maybe the therapist knows a lot about MLC, but without any other information about that therapist's opinion I am only left with assumptions and frankly I wonder how her idea/definition differs from mine.
I wish there were more reconciliation stories coming out of this forum, I'd like to know what worked in those stories, but I think I know why there are so few. People are terrified of calling themselves "reconciled", former LBSers are terrified that if they do, the other shoe will drop, they will be jinxed somehow. Perhaps many who are in "reconnection stage" are actually anxiously awaiting the other shoe to drop. How can a person live like that? How many years do you have to be together again in order to be deemed "reconciled" anyway? Who wants to live life like that? I sure don't.
Yup. I was like that. Though I did not then and do not now call it fear. I did not want to manifest the negative with expectations that it was not over and I did not want to have expectations that it was and set myself up for a fall either. It was one day at a time without a label. Chuck cam e home so many times and I approached each return as something that could and might work. It was soon clear with all other than the 2007 return that things were not over and yet I still had hopes that he would not leave and we could work through the rest of his MLC with him at home. But I was not going to march out claiming we'd fixed or solved or healed it or whatever until I felt more solid about it. He came and left too many times for me to rush into the Reconciling/Reconciled label. The Reconnecting label is meant to be used sooner. I personally felt there was too much arrogance in claiming Reconciled without giving the time for us to recover together and that may be because he left again so many times and because I had that instilled to me over at DB not to claim it too quickly—and I agree with that by the way.
What I meant AnneJ, is that I don't think it's very conducive to greet newcomers this way: "this is going to take a long time, it's not your fault, and therapy doesn't help".
That was three parts:
Time may be one of those really hard ones to determine through data collection because we need to be doing the collection from cases that are either through or that have gone on so long that they are probably stuck—or we would revise our timeline if everyone were still in it after say 10 or 15 years. And my MLC Survey at least is not set up that way.
As for fault, huh? Do you think we should start telling LBSs it is their fault? Basically, why is that not conducive—and why do so many feel that it is? It is not saying that the LBS has no responsibility in the marital problems and that they were a perfect spouse. Mirror-Work goes both ways.
Therapy does help. We recommend it here for the LBSs and I for one have not said that therapy will not help an MLCer, I have said that marriage counseling does not help when a person is in MLC—at least in the Escape & Avoid period or when there is an active affair in place. And that did not originate here; it's common for counselors to say that. And as with most things, there are exceptions.
I do have concerns with MLCers and therapy though. But I've said before that those are based on my own fears. I know that many therapists may be divorce counselors masquerading as marriage counselors or individual counselors and that in our culture there is this idea that we deserve happiness even when it is at the expense of others and that maybe a therapist will take that stance. In addition there is that loss of control that we have when the therapist hears the MLCer's side without hearing our side as well.
When I hear that a Stander is in counseling with their MLCer believe me my heart soars and there are a few here who have been in regular counseling for long periods. I feel the same excitement about MLCers in therapy, but I've hear the horror stories of counselors encouraging the MLCer to leave the marriage and so I admit to not so much outright skepticism, but wariness.
Many of us spent years and years walking on egg shells before BD, which if the crisis lasts say 4-6 years easily can add up to a decade or almost.
And many did not; for many it was a complete shock; we knew nothing before the moment of Bomb Drop.
So it's not our fault that our spouses are in the claws of MLC, but the question is can we prolong it by not moving forwards ourselves? Can we cut down the MLC process by moving on, learning something from this, changing, getting over our anger and fear? If the answer to this question is "yes" then that must also mean that we actually CAN do something, no?
I've written on this quite a bit—it began with a coaching session I had with Jim Conway a few months after Bomb Drop. Jim said that accepting the process can shorten it and denying it can elongate it. I have a slightly different idea about that.
Resistance by the left behind spouse elongate the process; acceptance doesn't really shorten it, but it distills it to what it should be by eliminating resistance.
Why slam one method over another?You believe this, I believe that. Can't we all just agree that we may try different approaches and report back? Wouldn't you be interested in hearing what worked for someone? I know I sure would.
Yes, why? You have said that the guidelines here are too rigid and complained about how people are told or warned about the MLC time range, success of benefits of therapy for an MLCer. But why slam that method over another? Especially when one of my main tenets is to do what works and what works today may be the opposite of what may work tomorrow and what works may one may fail for another. That's why I have not written a specific series of steps we all need to follow to get to reconciliation. I'm thinking of getting something general out there, but people like specifics and so I the generalities may be too general for the minds of those looking for a magic cure.
I'll say it again, earlier on, I wrote about the harsh way with which some comments are delivered. A prime example would be this:
They should be in therapy. Both are willing. If he's in MLC, that may not last. See comments above about MLCers and marriage counseling.
Is that really a prime example? I'm not saying that it is not an example, but it is it prime? You seem to be saying that it is obvious that his comment is harsh, but obvious to whom? I did not read it that way. I'm not saying it is or isn’t harsh; I'm in a different place and so I read things differently and knowing that some may take it harshly I can try and look at how that may be, but not seeing it as harsh it would not have crossed my mind that it is harsh. Which part was harsh, the first, second or all? I thought of the last part where he said to see comments above simply as one of those things we do when we don’t want to repeat what we or someone else said, but wondered if that was what was thought of as harsh—and if that is the part, why? Is it harsh because you are inferring that he is saying it is obvious. Sometimes I do feel this DUH coming on when someone who has been around a while asks something (in a challenging manner) that has been said over and over. Sorry. So is that what was thought to be harsh? Sorry, I don’t know. I think sometimes the problem is that text has no tone and so we misinterpret things much easier since we do not have body language or tone to cue us. But being specific about why that comment is thought to be harsh can help us understand how to be less harsh. But pointing it out as obvious often means the specifics are removed.
If it's the first part that is harsh, how so? Is it they should in the first sentence? Or maybe the warning that it may not last and why is that warning harsh? It could easily be made harsh by revising be made harsh by revising may to will. But he left it open.
I'll say it again, although I have a feeling it won't be heard: MAYBE, just MAYBE there are solutions that work in SOME cases. And MAYBE just MAYBE we should pass on this information to others before dismissing it altogether?
This is extremely condescending. Sorry for being dense, but why do you think people here are so close-minded? Or are you simply thinking that because they do not seem as open as you would like to what you are saying—though they may be open to many other alternatives which are not part of what you are saying.
If you feel that people are being dismissive of you I can tell you that many here are feeling the same of you and so maybe it is both.
I find people here to be rather open-minded and interested in hearing about what is working for different LBSs. That does not mean they won’t approach a situation with some degree of skepticism and always agree. Doubt can be healthy. What we learn as the spouses of MLCers is that sometimes the person who is doing the accusing is projecting.
I'm not talking about what we as LBSers do for ourselves, like turn to meditation, practice our faith etc. I'm talking about POSSIBLE solutions to shorten or help our MLCer move out out of MLC sooner rather than later. I'm talking about something that we often consider "impossible", because I don't think it is.
Huh? Meditation and faith practice were what I did as a solution. Yeah, sure, they also had the function of being my own Mirror-Work, that's why many of us say that the things you need to do for yourselves are what you need to do as a Stander for your marriage. But for me I was really doing all that because I was a Stander and I was going to have a reconciled marriage. The solutions are in what you need to do for your Self as well as what you need to do regarding the Standing Actions part.
I wrote the mainsite/manuscript in three parts because I feel those three were solutions—at least in my situation.
- MLC and Infidelity knowledge.
- Mirror-Work
- Interacting with my MLCer
The knowledge helped me with understanding and thereby helped my compassion and empathy. Working in my Self helped me to detach so that I was not stuck in a hormonal stress response and interacting with my MLCer may be the more obvious one because I got to be with him, communicate, argue, diffuse, observe, and show him my changes as well as adjust to his. We got to work together too. But for that solution I needed the other solutions; they work together.
I am going to go out on a limb here by challenging "validation". Let's look at what RCR writes about it:
Though you cannot fix your MLCer, you are not incapable of providing help--by accepting and validating his choices. I'm sorry you feel...life is hopelessyou do not love meI was an awful wifeyou deserve betteryou are not worthythis new person is your soul mateyou are never coming homeyou hate me...By not validating, your MLCer feels you are not listening or taking him seriously; to dismiss his feelings is to also be dismissive of him--and that is insulting.
This is how I (before I even came to this site, and before I had even heard of MLC the way we talk about it here) responded to my H for a very long time, many years actually. It wasn't until I STOPPED validating/accepting his feelings that I noticed a change in him. Saying "I'm sorry you feel I was an awful wife" (for instance, which I am sure I did or some echo of it) is actually a LIE coming from me, either a lie or a form of sarcasm, as I don't at all feel sorry that my H believes I was an awful wife. I feel it's a bunch of crap. It wasn't until I stopped this, stopped what my H perceived as sarcasm, stopped validating, stopped "accepting" how he feels, stopped babying him, stopped also "paving the way", that I noticed a change.
Sorry, but this is sorta funny because I haven’t found the challenge to what I say or do in it. What I see is an assumption based on a piece of advice that works at times and that I have said is more important in the beginning than later. That means I don’t think it is a tool that is static! I did not validate like that in the later years of the crisis and I have stated directly that there are times for not validating and being more direct about disagreeing. I'm sorry you feel that way is for beginners—not just newbies, but for those who have not been using it. Do something different and if it's not different for someone, then maybe it's part of the problem.
And as far as you stopping Paving the Way, Um no just because you used a different tool or building materials does not mean you stopped Paving it, it means you don’t get the metaphor. You spouse is home and you are through the crisis which means you are Paving the Way still because that's part of being married and present and attentive in your marriage as well as it is part of getting there.
If you take my words as though I apply them to every situation at every moment you will certainly find a lot to challenge because they are not meant that way.
Though it wasn't my intention, I did hand H a "deadline", an ultimatum of sorts, because I needed to leave the country. Without him, I couldn't afford to stay with my son in the US. I didn't say: "If you don't come back, I will have to relocate." I said: "I need to move, we can figure out a way for you and S to keep in touch and visit." That's when H realized he couldn't behave like a teenager anymore. I know, I know, in MANY of the situations here it doesn't work that way. But in mine it did, and so I say there might be other cases in which it MAY work as well.
Of course it might work—to me that is one of those DUH sort of things. Given your living situation it sounds like a completely sound move to have taken. That does not mean I would not have watched with wonder and worry, though probably not skepticism. And that is what you are going to see from the concerned people here offering advice. They know that something like that led to different results with someone else and because of that they feel obligated to let you know—especially if they have witnessed those actions leading to the alternative results more than those you realized. It's not about being doom bringers or strict guidelines where; it's about helping and offering a person a broader view because many start with a narrow view. Most seem to appreciate it and so I personally don’t think it would be right to go around withholding because of the few that will not appreciate it.
I'm beginning to think I cannot make myself clear at all.
- I am not saying that every MLCer can be helped. I am saying some MAY be helped.
- I am not saying love can cure mental illness.
What I AM saying is this: There ARE ways to help SOME MLCers come out quicker from their tunnels. And I feel that that's something pretty much deemed impossible here.
Why do you think you have not made yourself clear—because the people have not posted with words you think they should in response to your words?
I was talking to my mom about some stuff regarding the adoption process—specifically the emotional challenge of being placed with foster children and having them removed rather than getting to adopt them. She was being my gripe-sounding board. I have not yet had the experience of having children placed in my care and then removed and so I don’t know what that is like from an experiential standpoint; I have not yet been in the choir. But I do know—from an intellectual perspective—that such a thing will be emotionally wrenching to put it lightly. DUH The way I put it was that just because I'm not in the choir I can recognize a choir robe when I see it. But the social workers and those foster parents who have been through it understandably feel that they have to emphasize that this can be hard and emotionally wrenching; they want to prepare me with their warnings. I get it and many don’t know that we've been hearing this for 2+ years from a lot of people. Frankly, I'm tired of hearing it because I know and I will not progress my knowledge to the experiential sort until and unless it happens to me. But a lot of those people think I'm not getting it—I heard that recently from a man who thought he was being light and jokey about it at a foster parent dinner. But to me it was condescending: I know what a choir robe looks like—DUH.
People think I'm not getting their point. How do they know what I'm getting? How do they know what I already knew before they made their point? What do they know about what I have learned?
Evas, now apply that question to you. On a few posts in this thread you have complained that people are not getting your point. I am assuming that you are coming to this conclusion based on their responses to the point you are attempting to make. Just for a moment consider that they get your point perfectly. If that is the case what does that say about your assumption and how you are handling their counter points? Condescending? Disrespectfully? Maybe the person not getting it is you? Or maybe everyone is getting the point and you all are just not in agreement. If you don’t like or get their answer, why does that mean they don’t get your point?
I read the responses and I think you made good points and they made good points in responses that to me seemed to have a full understanding of your point. So what does that mean, maybe that you all understand and yet still have different perspectives?
Does my saying this make a person think that I'm not getting it? Basically people are feeling dismissed and condescended to because it feels to them like there is a built in excuse: if their comments do not seem in-line with your point as you see it, then they can be dismissed because they don’t understand. If you think you are not being heard consider that people are hearing and even understanding you without a problem, but they may not share your perspective or agree with you, sometimes maybe there understanding is deeper and clearer than yours.
To me it seems that at least part of your point is that other things are possible. And to that I get this big HUH and DUH and why is she preaching to the choir feeling. Which then leads me to assume that you don’t understand that we already know that—deeply. I have worked to set things up with that at its core—not some aside, but core and so if it were some aside, maybe I'd get why you feel the need to make the point.
Now, having said that I do understand that there are a lot of people on here and some are more rigid than others. Another DUH I guess. I do not like to use absolute modifiers, but here goes, there is a good chance that we will always have to be adjusting our balancing back-and-forth with our assumptions when we get a newbie and our warnings. I think this was part of the other thread started by Thundarr. Since this is a site geared toward MLC situation there's bound to be an assumption of MLC when a person arrives and that assumption means certain warnings will be offered. But the situation may not be MLC and so those warnings will not pan out for some. Those assumptions may even hinder such a non-MLC situation where the betraying spouse ends the affair and does the work to heal. What if the betrayed spouse Acts As If it is MLC and pushes a betraying spouse away and possibly back to an alienator and maybe even into an MLC—maybe the affair was a teetering near the edge of a possible MLC situation.
If this site were for general infidelity and MLC just fit a few, then that might not be a regular issue, but it is geared toward MLC and so it's likely to always be something we need to keep in our self-awareness.
I find it very difficult to validate lies.
Validation is one of the most misunderstood things around here. To validate is to acknowledge that something is a truth; given that it's not only difficult but impossible to validate a lie which is the opposite of a truth.
Validate feelings. I validated Chuck's feelings while directly disagreeing with his actions.
A few years into his crisis I was not using validation so much, but there was a situation for which I wrote a script and read it when we spoke on the phone. It was about stuff I had figured out he felt and that I felt his feelings were unfair—though still real. And so I apologized for not having been the bread winner he had thought I would be and for not having gone to med school and then I followed it with a comma-but about how that wasn't really fair to me that he had those expectations and held me to them years later.
He was in tears on the other end. What I was doing was letting him know that I was finally understanding some of what had him upset and why or how he felt let down. That it was unfair was also important to communicate, but he still needed to feel that I acknowledged and understood his feelings behind it. The I'm sorry you feel that way comments in that conversation were part of a tool I was using to make a point about the unfairness and to simultaneously show him that I hear him or got his side as well.
Chuck felt I put work first and him second. And when it came to my writing he was correct. But when it came to the official 9-5 job he was incorrect and I think he did know that. On a few occasions he went camping without me because I couldn’t get the time off. In those first months after Bomb Drop he tearfully brought up how he went camping alone as though that was evidence of my neglect. He felt neglected and he was right, but he was transferring the reason to my paid job, something he would have blamed me for losing if I had lost it because I skipped out and went camping with him. In those days he would have really gone off the deep-end about that and he'd have considered that alone a divorceable offense. Double Bind.
I firmly believe I would have been able to PREVENT his full-blown MLC with OW, Monster, and moving out and all the other things that happened last year. And this is where this site comes in: A newbie arrives and gives us his or her story and right away we give the SAME advice to EVERYONE. Right away we PRESUME that there's NO WAY the LBSer can do ANYTHING to shorten her partner's MLC. It's the rigidity of that advice that makes me wonder.
That sounds pretty presumptive. Sorry, joke! It's not what I do and though I admit that I do not read the day-to-day threads I don’t see this everything receiving the same advice thing that you see. Some things are going to be the same—the generalities. So if you read one of my articles, it's a static thing and so other than occasional revisions it stays the same. A person reading it a week after Bomb Drop will read the same thing that as when they re-read it 3 years later. It's meant to be general information. When I coach an individual it is a lot different—with me sometimes contradicting something I might have said as a generality. OldPilot has his general welcome post. It's a generality and I think people know that. It is not tailored. Same goes for my welcome PM. And in the beginning advice may be less tailored because we are not familiar enough with a situation. I just started the ask me a question series with the contact form and I'm getting a lot of questions that want specific answers to their situations. I can't give those in that format. Some give me back history and I maybe I could glean something from that, but the purpose of the form is to address the generalities—which means I need to answer the general question and point out to the questioner that it is a generality and not an answer that may be specific for their situation. That sort of thing is for individual advice or coaching.
I absolutely believe that you could have prevented it as well. I don't have a prediction on (were we to go back in time without our future knowledge) as to whether you would prevent it or not, but I have no doubt in the possibility and the greater your understanding and acceptance, the greater the odds.
DontGiveUp pasted a quote I have said about preventing. That has been revised in my manuscript. Here is what it says now—with some emphasis on the revisions:
There’s no preventing once it has started; there’s impatience and the inability to accept the process. Regardless of what’s healthiest, best, or of what you want, an in-process midlife crisis can’t be prevented, thought it can be prolonged by an unaccepting spouse. Acceptance can ease it, but once it’s begun, the crisis must continue to completion; it’s a journey to go through, not get over.
The but once it's begun was in the original, but the additional changes made that so it didn’t seem to contradict. I just went back and re-checked that passage. Should I then point out that there is a possibility of prevention before entering MLC? A good idea maybe, but I've been told to reduce the word count, not increase it! And that would not be a single additional sentence, but a whole other aside that may take a few paragraphs or pages.
Saying that once started it cannot be stopped does sounds pretty absolute. There are probably exceptions and of course in those I will wonder if it was a case of a midlife transition that was not quite a full crisis. But I've also and seen/heard of so many situations where it was the case that there was a mild sort of start-up years before or maybe not really mild and an MLCer was yanked out and then years later there was full blown MLC—and maybe the yanking (stopping rather than preventing) made this later MLC worse. This is why I think that preventing is different than stopping. I can prevent Cancer with certain lifestyle habits, but once I've got it I cannot unring that bell. I might be able to have it cured, but in most cases there are things I have to go through—the miracle shrinking and disappearing tumor has been observed, but it's an outlier in the data—and yeah, we should not ignore those outliers because maybe our cure is in them, but we also need to be attentive to those not outlying.
Can a mid-life DGU,You fail to see my point. You quote from RCR, and the views accepted and believed here - but I say let's look at OTHER ideas and thoughts.crisis be prevented? A quick google led me to a study by Joel R. Sneed of the Dept of Psychiatry at Columbia Uni. According to him it is possible. I also found "10 Things You Can Do to Prevent a Mid-Life Crisis". I have not read it in-depth, I just googled it now, to show you and everyone else that there are other ideas and thoughts out there. And what if it can help someone here? Wouldn't that be great?Instead of repeating the advice here, which we all can access and which has been helpful to a lot of people (including me), I say let's do more by branching out and looking at alternatives AS WELL. Again, let's not be so rigid.
People are going to highlight the things they feel are most helpful. Poor DontGiveUp takes a lot of flack for highlighting the things I have said. But that is what he finds helpful—and to use his word,credible and if he finds it credible, he thinks it might help others as well and so he passes it on—and I thank him for that. Criticizing him for doing it seems inappropriate. I've said before that I do not want to be anyone's guru.MLC & Experts (http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=1777.0;all) There are forums where posting links to outside sources will get you banned; we encourage them here.
As for that google search and article. Sorry, but it kinda made me laugh. It's another one of those DUH and preaching to the choir sort of things. I see those articles all the time.
And then when others referred to you using the Google search or documents in their counterstatements you said this:
Did you read what I wrote earlier: I said a quick google led me to these two articles, among many. I am not saying to take either one of them as gospel (again let us not be overly rigid here now, OK?), but I said to be open for the possibility that curbing or preventing a MLC may be possible. In every case? No.
Really? So you are allowed to bring up something, but others are not allowed to then use it in their counter-responses? Yes, you said you did a quick search and I took it to mean you did not study the info in detail—and I think the others are smart enough to have picked up on that as well—you were clear. But why gripe when someone else goes in and takes the time to read what you referenced and use that in their response? I have not seen the others being rigid at all, but I do think there may be a greater likelihood for rigidity when people feel dismissed and I get the feeling that both sides may feel that way here.
The consistencies I've noticed across the board for reconnections, no matter what the contact type or energy level of the MLCer are:
- The LBS becomes confident in themselves
- The LBS sheds any codependent tendencies
- The LBS finds strength in their intuition
- The LBS finds the strength to speak freely in their own power to the MLCer, unaffected by any potential outcome
There is no technique, tactic, or formula more potent than strength and honesty.
I don’t really have a comment, I just found this such a great list that I want to save it. Awesome! Although since you included intuition in the list—loved that by the way—I think I will add to your final statement: There is no technique, tactic, or formula more potent than strength, self-trust and honesty.
Many times the articles even pose questions for thought rather than proclaim any answers. But sometimes, like Evas says, the advice given by others may use the information as if it is an absolute.
Thank you so much for noticing both these things. I have tried very hard to leave things open and as I said above we are probably always going to need to be self-aware of our general assumptions since this site is geared toward MLC situations even though not everyone here has an MLC situation. I think we are all going to be guilty of absolute at times. Evas, for instance you are making some excellent points and yet I find myself wondering—in my twisted analysis paralysis, so just laugh at me—if you are being absolute regarding people be absolute! Told you I was twisted. I'm not saying you are or anything but at least to me since it feels like choir preaching and so maybe you don’t know that we are actually of the same mindset—we not being just you and me but all of us.
And basically I get that sometimes there is going feel like there is rigidity. But it's the nature of a forum like this and some acceptance is necessary because it's such a back-and-forth balancing act between Unconditionalers and Tough Lovers or those who think people are too encouraging of divorce—we hear that one every few months. But the thing is this is a site where a lot of people are going to wind up divorced in the end and we need to be here for them in their needs. That means that someone who is a Strict Stander may not like what we have to say and so suddenly we are accused of being pro-divorce and a few are feeling uncomfortable. It's the challenge of this balance thing.
I think it is also clear that RCR did different things at different stages. She did pave the way but she also let loose with the truth darts and put the fear of loss into him later. Some things may not be effective at different stages which is why we might think some things don't work. Few of us have the ability to know exactly what is best to do when. It is a lot of trial and error. I think that is allowed for on this site as some of the advice has been if something isn't working try the opposite. I don't think Evas did things radically different from the advice on here so much as she tweaked it to fit her situation.
Paving the Way is a metaphorical term and so sometimes it's hard to explain. But Truth Darts and putting the fear of loss were also part of Paving the Way. If what I was doing was in benefit of my Stand—the literal Stand for my marriage and not just my Stand for Self and my journey—then it was Paving the Way. Now I guess if something had harmed my Stand—and we made it through in spite of that, that thing would not qualify as Paving the Way.
It was a constant trial and error. I even wrote a post once about it being like a laboratory experiment.
But I do hear what Evas is saying. I find myself not responding favorably to what could be attempts at re-connection because all advice tells me that it can't be that as it is too soon.
Stillkicking, to me it sounds like these may be touch and goes rather than true reconnection attempts. Hindsight is 20/20 and this seems to be true with MLC as well. I think we often don't realize that they are truly reconnecting until we see consistent, positive movement forward for an extended period of time (i.e. months) and we look back and realize that any changes seem to have "stuck".
You know, I wonder if there is a big misunderstanding of Reconnection—which is understandable given that it's just part of a spectrum. To me the way you guys are talking about it, I sense that you are having the idea that it is far along the spectrum toward reconciliation—perhaps using the terms almost interchangeably. That is not how I see it. Those new purple icons have a light and dark designation. The light is meant for Reconnecting and the Dark for Reconciliation/Rebuilding and it's a touch thing to figure sometimes because of the subjectivity. But to me the idea with the light purple is to show that there can be back-and-forths, that Reconnection is an advanced Touch-n-Go and so an MLCer may leave again. I've even said that if an MLCer is a Clinging Boomerang it may all feel like Reconnection—versus Touch-n-Go. Chuck was so attached and connected and not wanting out that I do think his moved home were Reconnections and what I wanted shown in them—when I was posting at DB during the crisis—was that things were still rocky and that he might still go away. I wanted to show the ups and downs and that even with that soap opera a couple could make it through together. So that means the light purples is not meant for a situation where an MLCer smiled nicely and asked how you are doing with concern after months of Monster—a brief moment doesn’t mean light purple! But I certainly see it for those Clinging Boomerang moves home. It's actually confusing and so I've probably confused the matter further.
Is it ever too soon for a Reconnection? No. What it may be too soon for (as a generalization) is for that Reconnection to stick and progress directly to Reconciliation.
"Reconnection" was a poor choice of words as I didn't mean it as it relates to the stages. I just meant he could be reaching out in a way and I was ignoring him.
Perhaps it was a poor choice in the context of misunderstanding the term, and yet perfect given an understanding of it. I don’t know. But sometimes a Touch-n-Go and a Reconnection are identical other than in time—so an action may be a Touch-n-Go early in the crisis (or in a particular phase of context) and it may be a Reconnection later. See? Confusing stuff huh?
First of all, it takes a lot more than the quote from DGU to upset me! I smiled when I read it because it was in a way so predictable, of course since the H is in MLC it "may" not work...What I am saying, and I wish instead of nitpicking you'd see my overall point here, is that LET US TRY TO BE A BIT OPEN! Is that so difficult? Or is it dangerous because it upsets some order or something?
This is one of those comments where at least to me you are complaining about us not getting it, putting in a dig at DGU and preaching to the choir again and yet you think you are the only person in the choir.
I see this sort of dig at DGU regularly and it hurts me and not because he is the one referencing me, but the reason I don't speak out about it is because I think people will think that—oh, I'm just coming to DGU's defense because he's some sort of RCR disciple. I think he's a bright guy who gets that there are maybes and he has no problem thinking for himself. Some have said that he seems to pull out quotes that don’t fit as a response to the discussion and yet when I've read what he's referenced I felt it was a great fit—so what that could mean is that we aren’t always going to understand the thread of each other's thoughts, but that does not mean the thoughts lack a thread. Me for instance, I go on and on and ramble and I write out of order and some of the things I was saying might even get cut out and I don’t realize it and so maybe I was making sense in my head and yet I fail to include everything and so people read what I say and kind of go HUH? I don’t know if that happens, but I do worry about it is a jump around while writing a single post the length of a novel.
I don't know how to put it for you to understand - but maybe you do, but you just insist that I am dead wrong?
See, to me that is condescending because there is a base assumption of misunderstanding and if the responses don’t match up or prove understanding to you then it seems you conclude they disagree or don’t understand. I think I am getting –to use Mamma Bear's word—thinky.
I don't know What matters to me, is that we pass on alternative ideas to people who come here and are, often, desperate. A story where something generally thought of as impossible here has become possible - would that be so harmful to present? There's a lack of reconnection/reconciliation stories here. Don't you wonder why? I am not going to be afraid to post what worked for ME. I am also not going to be afraid to post what did NOT work for ME. In the hopes that others will too, and that it will in the long run be helpful.
I guess what seems confusing to me is why you seem to think this is somehow a novel idea. I spent ages on DB getting in arguments because I did things differently, they worked and I passed them on. And when I say argument, I mean they became more than nice debate—some people got downright nasty with me—in part because a lot of people liked what I had to say and some felt, I don’t know challenged or upset that someone who wasn't and OldTimer could have a clear view for advice. [Sigh] but I think what that might mean—going back to what I've said above—is that it is in part the nature of this sort of forum. We are always going to need that self-awareness to correct ourselves as we lean one way and then the other in our attempts to balance on the tightrope.
Perhaps you're right, perhaps there is a discussion that it is possible to help the MLCer exit the tunnel faster and I have missed it. I know only that this is part of what greeted me, and most people, when I got here: "You can not do anything to control this trip." And versions of it.
Oh I am totally with you on your frustration. I heard it so much and I was sick of it from the beginning. It is why I wrote Influence: Making a Difference. (http://loveanyway.theherosspouse.com/?p=360)
RCR thinks that the MLCer has to live the crisis to the end and nothing can be done.
If I thought that this site wouldn’t exist.
I’m even one who has different view from what is (or was) standard in the board. I do not think MLC is just a FOO/development/identity thing, I think there are other things at stake. That goes “against” RCR basic ideas, yet, she was open enough to allow me to express my views and I often talk about in on threads, even newbies ones....I’m sorry if you are perceiving me as closed. That is an irony since I’ve always thought MLC can be mitigated and have had many heated discussions with other board members because of it. I have a scientific mind.
Me too. My undergrad was not the social sciences, I majored in Biology and am about 6 credits away from a full Chemistry major. MY background is the hard sciences and I am not against MLC being chemical, hormonal, physiological... I just think that all of those factor in and I think we are too quick to pathologize disorders to the level of disease. I'm ADD or ADHD or whatever it is now. Is that some sort of disease that needs controlling or fixing or is it me? Is it one of those things that evolution tucked in to me as an advantage to a society—if we were all caffeine on speed (without really being on either) that would not be an evolutionary advantage, but it could be that there are some of us who are that way because we all play different roles. Is a shaman a madman who should be medicated for schizophrenia or is the way some cultures handle it better? I'm not saying schizophrenia should not be considered a disease, I'm saying that different cultures see it differently and because of that it may even manifest differently.
The amazing this when she and I hooked up, was that I felt there was a lightness about her (NotGivingUP), she didn't take this whole MLC business so seriously, which was unbelievable to me as I at times was feeling near suicidal. She believed there was a way out, she believed, and she had access to a therapist who believed too.
Well, I think I took MLC very seriously, but not because Chuck was in it and I was going to analyze it. I have found it interesting, fascinating in fact. It just turned out to be a subject that caught me and I have wanted to learn more and pass it on. But people thought I was spending too much on it—not my personal circle, my Mom understood the way I work, but those at the board thought I was just spending too much focus in it and not enough on my Self-focus. I felt guilty because I would advise people to do as I say and not as I do. If it interests you, then great, but just because I immersed myself does not and did not mean I thought the others needed to be doing that as well. If that were the case then I wouldn’t need to write all this stuff, I'd think you guys should figure it out without me writing about it.
And yet for some this over-focus I part of the process. They need to figure out that it's not healthy and not going to serve them, but they need to figure it out experientially—just like I won't ever know what it is like to have a foster child who I hope to adopt taken away unless it happens. Until an adoption is final I will see that choir robe hanging in the closet and it will be a reminder, but I hope I won’t have to wear it.
I was also told that there was a lightness to me—the term used was serenity. Ironically the same people told me I was focusing too much on MLC!
I don’t think one has to be reconnecting for years and years first. In fact I was thinking of posting about RCR blog post where she talks about one year apart if the MLCer have lived with OW. For me that is up to each LBS. To what we are comfortable with.
Of course it is. My point and warning is that I had left it up to me on all those other returns and had resisted the longer period away and each time he had kept up the affair which helped keep him in MLC. And that recommendation has a big IF. IF you are someone who was absolutely insistent on Standing and getting your marriage back then this is an important thing to do and not doing it may—just may—keep you in the come-and-go cycle. If your spouse lived with the alienator for a week or a month and then came home after only having left once, there may not be a cycle and a coming home may be a return that works. But after 7 previous returns I knew doing the same thing over again was not going to magically yield a different result. It’s also the most valid with a Clinging Boomerang.
And I know for sure his MLC didn’t started at BD, so I don’t think it’s fair to say that 2-7 years counts from the BD, which I’m almost 100% sure that I’ve read here on forum.
Time is one of those funny and subjective things. I recommend that a person start counting at Bomb Drop and yet, yes, the crisis does start on average 12-36 months before Bomb Drop. HUH? Confusing! Yeah, I know. And I don’t have an explanation for it. In some cases a person may not recognize Bomb Drop or there may not be a clear Bomb Drop, but where it is clear there often comes a distinct change in the energy of the situation. The MLCer's changes become overt and this tends to initiate the urge to abandon—Escape & Avoid. From that point it is 2-3 years before most MLCers will start to turn around. That does not mean most will start in that time or that most will not; I simply mean that those who turn around and come home and stay before that are outliers.
And maybe—oh fingers crossed—that time is really less but most people start out denying the process which elongates it to what now seems to be the average. Maybe—how cool would this be—the first point of typical return is supposed to be 6 to 18 months for a pure crisis-pure being they are left alone and there is no resistance. Or maybe they are left alone with a perfect balance of connection and interactions and no resistance.
The time seems to be more of a Replay/Escape & Avoid thing and once through that it could be seconds or years and anywhere in between. It may have to do with the amount of time between trigger and Bomb Drop or it may not—I just don’t know.
Evas,
[By the way, I wrote most of this comment before most of the other stuff that is above it.]
On the front page of my main site there is place I say this: I have not discovered a magic pill or a lost system from ancient times that will cure your problems. Have you discovered some magic cure to MLC? Or could the other people on this site have done the same things as you and had different results? You've answered this already and I don’t think you think that at all. But some newbies might take it that way—just as they take me that way. They think we are the solution and if they start applying the tools right now their spouse will be home next week or change their mind (and keep it changed) about leaving home. And sure, anything is possible, but if their situation is MLC—IF—is that probable? Not according to the anecdotal evidence here at the forum.
I have said many times that life is about balance. Right now there are two topic threads running based on the same initial post by Thundarr. Some are saying that we show too much hope around here, so much that we are giving false hope. Others are saying the opposite. So basically no matter what we do—even if we are in the middle—we are going to be criticized by some and praised by others. To me that means we need to do what we feel is best and right rather than trying to do the impossible and please everyone or even just one group. We need to listen to all voices and then each make our own determination about what is best.
Me, I think it is important that we respect the people here—that they can figure things out—like the fact that there are no guarantees. I also believe that we have a responsibility to offer warnings of possibilities regarding MLC. That means we inform them of the standard timeline. It means we tell that that most MLCers have an affair—so far according to The Hero's Spouse MLC Survey. As of now the survey results show that sexual infidelity is known or suspected in 82.7% of cases when the MLCer is male and 58.3% when the MLCer is female. Clearly that shows that 17.3% of male MLCers may not have a sexual affair; so there is no guarantee that there will be sexual infidelity and we should not march around saying that such a thing is certain. But to me 82.7% is a kind of significant majority and many people feel that the warning or information helps to prepare them as well as helps them with Acceptance of the Process.
I feel it would be far more useful to tell people the truth, what their spouse is going through is most likely permanent, the person they knew is gone and they need to consider their marriage over. They need to be told any chance of reconciliation is exceedingly slim if it is a case of MLC and their best hope is to carry on as if this is their new reality.
That quote is from the other thread with the same initiating post. He makes a good point. Is it most likely to be permanent? What is it referring to in that? The new MLC alien or Monster—that they will be in crisis for the rest of their life or is he referring to the new situation of separation and eventual divorce or something else?
Since MLC is not a pathological disease—at least not recognized as such—we don't have official statistics on entering without exiting. So what about the other possibility, that he's talking about the relationship being ended as permanent—no reconciliation. Truth: I agree right now. Sorry guys and I hate hate hate to say it, but given the laws and culture of divorce you are in an uphill march against city hall and society in general. The thing about that is that it's changeable and that is my goal. That's right! I want to change the world. I want world peace, I want to fight city hall and I want to change spots on leopards. I like tall orders. The divorce rate was once low and then it got high and though still high (my opinion) it has gone down. It is a construct of culture, whereas if it were my goal to increase the percentage of green-eyed humans from 2% to 50% I would be up against biology in addition to cultural mating patterns. Frankly, I think I've got a better chance of changing the divorce rate and this site is my contribution to that goal.
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RCR,
Yes, that was a long I am not even going to try to answer it all. It is far too long, and it doesn't serve a purpose. But what it DOES show, is how misunderstood we can be through the written word. You've misunderstood much of what I had written, and I have misunderstood much of what I have read here. Or we interpret things differently. I will just take a few examples where I feel that you read me wrong.
Well you quoted some timeline that we certainly don’t use here as an example and we offer a range rather than a set time.
On my thread I offer my timeline. I had a first BD in March or April 2009, after at least two years of egg-shell walking. No OW at the time, but H did move in and out, lived with colleagues, relatives, park benches. It was after the second BD last year in February that he left and moved in with OW. You tell me from where I should start counting.
But I was not going to march out claiming we'd fixed or solved or healed it or whatever until I felt more solid about it.
I have not marched out to claim anything other than my H is back and our life together is good. He may of course pack his bags and leave tomorrow, who knows? But when I write good, I write that comparing to what our life has been like more or less since 2009. I didn't just suddenly "march" out, I've written fairly regular follow-ups. In those I have also mentioned that the one with the main problems now, seems to be me: I feel very run down, and tired.
The Reconnecting label is meant to be used sooner. I personally felt there was too much arrogance in claiming Reconciled without giving the time for us to recover together and that may be because he left again so many times and because I had that instilled to me over at DB not to claim it too quickly—and I agree with that by the way.
But for me part of recovering means also that I have to have faith in my H. It's part of the forgiveness. I don't claim anything, because anything can happen. Like I said before, all I can claim is that H came by (sooner than later) and things are great. I cannot foresee the future, neither can anyone else.
As for fault, huh? Do you think we should start telling LBSs it is their fault?
But of course not! But I can say that following BD1 for me, long before I knew what MLC was, I felt a STRONG sensation that this is NOT my fault and THEREFORE I am NOT the one who should change. I think I also write in this thread, that life isn't fair, and it is also not fair that the LBSer must do some changes if the M with his or her MLCer will ever work in the future. These changes, as you and I both agree on, are also vital for the LBSer who choses not to Stand. I met another LBSer who feels very resistant to change since "my husband's MLC is not my fault"
In addition there is that loss of control that we have when the therapist hears the MLCer's side without hearing our side as well.
My H actually went to a therapist, he began a few months after BD1, and the therapist once called me and for some bizarre reason told me that H was extremely depressed (no news), that he felt I was a good woman and person, and that he felt "something was wrong with his head". This therapist passed him on to another, who diagnosed him with ADD and gave him drugs. That therapist also requested to see me, which was fine with H, and we went together for a few times, I can't say it did much, but it kept things under control and H stayed at home. Then he discontinued therapy because we could no longer afford our insurance.
Is that really a prime example?
Yes, I felt it was. Again, to me it was harsh. But then again, some of what I wrote seemed harsh to you.
Sometimes I do feel this DUH coming on when someone who has been around a while asks something (in a challenging manner) that has been said over and over.
Yes, certain things are repeated over and over, that may not make them any more true.
I'll say it again, although I have a feeling it won't be heard: MAYBE, just MAYBE there are solutions that work in SOME cases. And MAYBE just MAYBE we should pass on this information to others before dismissing it altogether?
This is extremely condescending. Sorry for being dense, but why do you think people here are so close-minded?
I don't mean to be condescending at all!! If I am not allowed to post here challenging what I read, then what can be gained? What if there are nuggets of information elsewhere that we haven't found (you, me or anyone)? Don't we want to bring that back? If people get aggressive or defensive at that thought, then yes, I would call that close-minded. If they on the other hand had said, like Thundarr: "Where is the Like button? This is what I wanted to happen!" I deem that open-minded. I am sorry but I cannot participate on all threads, I doubt anyone can, but the ones I have followed I do have to say sound more of the same. And just to be PERFECTLY clear, much of the advice has been extremely helpful to me.
I am sorry if this angers or upsets you, RCR. I am from a small country in Europe where we are brought up to always question authority, and perhaps I am being disrespectful. I didn't and don't mean that. Perhaps I am also lost in translation. English is not my first language, and these are emotional things we write about.
"Though it wasn't my intention, I did hand H a "deadline"."Of course it might work—to me that is one of those DUH sort of things. Given your living situation it sounds like a completely sound move to have taken. That does not mean I would not have watched with wonder and worry, though probably not skepticism.
I don't think we can go with DUH things here. What's DUH to you may not be so obviously DUH to me. Again, I can watch with wonder and worry for a long time, and what good is that going to do me? Seriously?
Why do you think you have not made yourself clear—because the people have not posted with words you think they should in response to your words? But some did! I wrote that because what I got back was that the things I mentioned hadn't worked in someone's situation.
You know, I wonder if there is a big misunderstanding of Reconnection—which is understandable given that it's just part of a spectrum. Well, at least I am not the only one misunderstanding things here.
Validation is one of the most misunderstood things around here. To validate is to acknowledge that something is a truth; given that it's not only difficult but impossible to validate a lie which is the opposite of a truth. Yes, I see now that I have misunderstood a great many things here.
What I am saying, and I wish instead of nitpicking you'd see my overall point here, is that LET US TRY TO BE A BIT OPEN! This and much of what I wrote was not aimed at DGU at all, he exited the discussion, but at AnneJ.
I absolutely believe that you could have prevented it as well. I am so sorry RCR, but this was something that I felt I learnt only via NGUOU's therapist and to me it was an eye-opener. I wish I could say that I had read it here.
See, to me that is condescending because there is a base assumption of misunderstanding and if the responses don’t match up or prove understanding to you then it seems you conclude they disagree or don’t understand. I think I am getting –to use Mamma Bear's word—thinky. You never thought that people might be afraid of challenging the things written on this website?
Have you discovered some magic cure to MLC? In this thread I actually write: "I am not a doctor, I cannot perform miracles." After AnneJ asked me for something that could help ALL MLCers. It's not that I have ANY answers, RCR, but I am saying let's be open enough for us to be able to share what did/didn't work or information we have found elsewhere without being punished. Like I wrote before, this is a bumpy road for all of us, whether we are at the beginning of the crisis, in the middle or the end. I am sorry if I came across as condescending. But the advice I received from my friend's therapist made such a HUGE difference in my life in so many ways, and I wanted to share that.
I guess what seems confusing to me is why you seem to think this is somehow a novel idea. I spent ages on DB getting in arguments because I did things differently, they worked and I passed them on. And when I say argument, I mean they became more than nice debate—some people got downright nasty with me. Oh dear, it's not novel. But that therapy works in MLC is not something you read very often on this site, RCR.
I want to change the world. I want world peace, I want to fight city hall and I want to change spots on leopards. So do I, RCR. And I'd say most of us here do!
Never did I mean to sound condescending in any of my posts. I could easily read a condescending tone in your several "DUHs" here, but I am choosing not to. I am choosing to believe that the reason you responded is because of what you stated in the beginning here: That you think it's a great discussion that needs highlighting.
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I don't have too much time and so let's see if I can be brief...HA! :o
I did not think you had any intention of condescension at all. MY DUHs are one of my common phrases--I also like to use variations on the phase about not giving rat's a$$ sometimes and I'm not meaning rudeness, it's just a phrase I like and I find fun--I'm kind of weird that way. As for my DUHs they were in particular about feeling like you didn't know you were preaching to the choir and let's face it, we all get tired of being told what we know as though we don't know it.
Yeah, I know it is uncommon to hear that therapy is might sometimes work in MLC. Part of my point is that sometimes stuff gets spread and yet it's not really from what I say or believe. I do say that the marriage counseling probably (notice that probably is not an absolute) won't work when there is an ongoing affair. Bill Doherty is doing some new work with Leaning in and Leaning Out spouses in therapy--though he is careful to no label it marriage counseling, but still it doesn't seem like individual therapy either.
Frankly this is sort of discussion is the type of thing I love--though sigh, I dread it too because it can take time and energy. So I'm having fun! I do worry that people are afraid to challenge things I say. I don't want that sort of world--no fun. I grow by being challenged. That being said, it's also nice to have validation as well. But angers and upsets me...hee hee, certainly not.
Oh, the prime example of harshness. I have no say regarding whether it was harsh or not because that is an opinion. I ask if it was prime because in saying that I inferred that you meant it was obvious which it was not to me and if it's not to me, maybe it's not to others. Now if the comment had been in caps and said something like HEY LADY (I'm going to go off caps cause it's annoying now) are you some sort of idiot? Can't you read--go look above; it's already been stated. And then to add insult there were a bunch of emoticons with angry and yet weirdly cute faces, well I'd think that was something that would be prime because it would to me be obvious that the person was meaning to be harsh and insulting!
I also don't think you were marching out to claim busted--I was making a general statement and not trying to imply you were doing that.
As for commenting about openness to AnneJ, she is probably one of the most open people here--and that is why it seemed that at times you may not be getting it rather than the other way around. I think she agrees with you more than you may be realizing if your comment was to her.
I organized this forum with this sort of discussion in mind when I created the topic icons.
But I do need to say this and I feel sad about it. This discussion is alive in the PM world as well and it is bothering people. Yes many agree with you, but I've also had messages saying they are concerned that what you are posting--sorry, but the references have been to you and not this thread in general--may scare or mislead newcomers. From what I have learned over the years, people appreciate the warnings we give--we just need to highlight that we are offering possibilities and not absolutes. People appreciate that we tell them this may take a long time--though hopefully not 10 years. They appreciate the preparation for infidelity. We need to be sensitive to their needs and responsible for how we interpret things.
Whew. Chuck is calling me so that means I should force myself to stop--bout time! Oh, but I will say that I think authority is made to be questioned. ;D
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This discussion is alive in the PM world as well and it is bothering people. Yes many agree with you, but I've also had messages saying they are concerned that what you are posting--sorry, but the references have been to you and not this thread in general--may scare or mislead newcomers.
Please, RCR, remove my comments. And please feel free to remove my entire profile from the forum as well. If I could do it, I'd do it myself. I do not want anyone to be bothered by my comments. That was not my intention.
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Wow, what a great thread! - and I haven't read the first 6 pages of it yet. I will make sure I go back and do so because this is REALLY interesting. Thanks to all involved. Evas, I don't think I have read any of your threads yet but I am interested in what you have to say. I hope you will still be around so that if I have any questions or comments, I can post them on your thread.
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Hi Evas
I really hope you do not delete your profile or your comments. This has been a really interesting thread, with lots of different angles.
Sometimes things can become lost in translation, and we know that you did not mean any offence, and nor did anyone else.
I too am looking forward to hearing more from you and DGUOU on your threads.
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I second Kikki, Evas.
It is ADHD now, RCR. It keeps confusing me because I'm used to ADD.
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I second Kikki, Evas.
It is ADHD now, RCR. It keeps confusing me because I'm used to ADD.
They are more or less the same. thing.
Alrhough strictly speaking there is some minor difference, Hyperactivity I believe.,
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I think that is it, OP. Somehow now I keep coming across study material that only seems to have ADHD. it is like ADD has disappeared...
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I think that is it, OP. Somehow now I keep coming across study material that only seems to have ADHD. it is like ADD has disappeared...
No it has not disappeared,, my son is just ADD and he is 25.
But their is a movement here to classify more people as ADHD.
Unfortunately the person I used to know that had the most knowledge about this I no longer get to speak to.
You can guess who that is. :)
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No it has not disappeared,, my son is just ADD and he is 25.
But their is a movement here to classify more people as ADHD.
I know there are people just with ADD but there really seems to be some pressure for ADHD to be the label. In my recent courses think the phrase "people with ADD or ADHD" only turned up once. The rest was all ADHD.
Unfortunately the person I used to know that had the most knowledge about this I no longer get to speak to.
You can guess who that is. :)
Yes I can. :)
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I, personally, find this type of discussion really interesting and thought provoking.
I find myself nodding my head in agreement at some of the comments, and maybe shaking my head in a few. But, what do I know?
I only know my situation. My H did not go to MC. He absolutely refused to go to MC at BD. He sulked, like a child, and just would say "I don't want to!" Although, he was "happy" to go to Individual counseling to see a therapist that whose name he claimed to have had in his pocket for about 1 year prior.
I now know that his refusal to go to MC was due to the fact he had already decided to divorce me. He just wasn't able to tell me, yet.
The only thing that I know about his counseling sessions are what HE told me...so I must take them with a grain of salt. His counselor asked him why he had married me. Told him that he "took the path of least resistance" and agreed to the decisions of others (me??) when he married, bought his first home....etc., etc., etc. Based on what he told me about their sessions, she counseled him out the door. But, again, that is MY opinion. He continued to see her for about 6 months or so after he ran away. I would say "moved out" - but he never moved anything...so "ran away" seems a better description.
Do I think, due to my experience, that counseling doesn't help? No. I think that there are some that counseling could "help." But, in my opinion, counseling can only help those who want the help and are willing and able to do the work necessary. I don't think that most MLCers fit that bill. And, I may surprise you (or not) when I say that there are some LBS' who also fit that same bill.
LBS who say that "it wasn't my fault" (I'm one of those, by the way) and make no attempt to make changes within themselves (I am not one of those, by the way) in many ways (in MY opinion) are avoiding, like their MLC spouses.
Everyone has things within themselves that need improving. I don't think that I am shocking anyone with that statement. OP tells many of us that we have been given the "gift" of time. (Thanks for that, by the way, OP ;) ;) ;). It's that gift that keeps on giving. But, for many of us, that is the truth.
What we do with that time....is up to us. Hopefully, we will spend it becoming better parents, friends, people. I, personally, don't think that there is a darn thing that I could do (can do) to "help" my MLC spouse. I believe that I was (in his mind) a know-it-all (never wrong) and that he would resent ANY attempt from me to "help" him. Again, that is just my opinion. I do know that he has stayed away from me for much of the 3 years since BD. (Tomorrow is my 3 year BD anniversary, by the way). I have only seen him twice this year. His mother's funeral and his father's birthday. I don't expect to see him any time soon. We will soon be divorced.
I did some validating, at first. I was following the advice here and willing to try "anything" at the time. I felt so lost and all I wanted was my husband back. Looking back, I wouldn't validate again. It's not that I thought it did any "damage" or that it helped in any way, either. I see things differently now and I would not want to validate what I consider to be an untruth. Regardless of what my H has said to me, or others - I was a good wife. Very far from perfect, but a good wife. I supported him. I loved him. I was true to him. I certainly was a better wife than he was a husband. (This is something he himself has said, several times, during his MLC). I would choose, now, not to validate - as I do not wish to damage myself anymore than that has already been done. And, to validate an untruth, is damaging to me.
Do I think that there are things that could have been done? Sure. Of course. But, I do agree that, once IN MLC, there is little to nothing that can be done.
The MLCer is going to do what the MLCer wants to. Period. Find an OW, or two, or three. Get divorced...or not. Come back and forth (if a Clinger) - contact the LBS occasionally (or not) with silly messages or attempts to be kind (or not). On another site, it is said that the MLCer will never completely go away, until he or she is pushing up daisies. (I think those with Vanishers would disagree with this, by the way). With my MLCer, I believe this will be true. We have kids together. There will be life events. We will hear of each other. We may even be in each other's presense. For me...if this is it - I would prefer never to hear of him or see him again. For me, I don't think this is possible.
I probably need more mirror work to find out why I am still angry (hurt??), whatever. So, the comments that I make may appear to be tainted or disheartening to newbies. (Sorry about that). I will say that I still believe that most of these MLCers will get through their crisis. I believe that most will regret what they have done. (Even if they never acknowledge it to anyone). I just think that it takes so much time.....and WE change. We feel differently. I think for many of us, this is "normal."
Don't know where I was going with all of that. This debate has me thinking. Quite honestly, I think we should all do whatever "works." For many of us, the thing that "works" is for us to just let go...leave them to their crisis, and go on with our lives. I don't think that curing anyone else's crisis is within my control. Well, maybe my own - but that is still a challenge.
I hope that none of you leave the forum, delete your comments, or stop posting what you think. We may not all agree - and there certainly are posts that I do not agree with - but I find value in much of it.
I can't speak for every newbie....but I remember very much being a newbie on this site. At the time, all I wanted to read about was reconciled marriages or MLCers who were returning or divorces that were cancelled. If a thread or comment wasn't consistent with what I wanted to read - I dismissed it. I was determined to be one of the LBS who had a reconciled marriage!
In my situation, I have had to realize that a reconciled marriage takes TWO people who want it reconciled. An MLCer in the throes of his/her crisis - has WAY TOO MUCH to deal with with his/her own issues. He/she cannot work on their marriage, too. In escape and avoid, he/she is not even dealing with their internal issues. You can't do more for someone than he/she can do for him or herself.
I guess I just have a lot of random thoughts. No conclusion. At least not at this point.
L
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I will say that I still believe that most of these MLCers will get through their crisis. I believe that most will regret what they have done. (Even if they never acknowledge it to anyone). I just think that it takes so much time.....and WE change. We feel differently. I think for many of us, this is "normal."
I will agree with this. I think that it is inevitable that we change. Too much damage has been done for there not to be change.
I also hold onto hope. As someone who is always looking for a pony in their barn full of sh*t, I also do not think that divorce is necessarily the end. I've read of a lot of R's after divorce. It happens. But in the end I think it will be OUR choice how long we stand. That gives me strength and power. I'm not waiting, I'm choosing. There is a difference.