Midlife Crisis: Support for Left Behind Spouses
Archives => Archived Topics => Topic started by: OldPilot on February 23, 2016, 06:39:24 AM
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What I suggest is that that there are a few topics that perhaps should be openly discussed.
- Whether standers should be the only ones who are on the HS forum?
- Whether NC (which as far as I can see - I really was never in) is a doomsday to a R?
- Is there a role for the "Bitter" divorced moderators on the forum?
But I suggest that you take these discussions to an independent thread so they can be discussed objectively - and not in context of how I have lived my life.
Airmid requested a separate thread be used to discuss these issues I will start it here.
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I thought I would add a comment - as I am (most likely) one of the divorced, bitter moderators.
Sigh.
I was married for 30 years before all this crap happened. My Ex filed for divorce a year after running away from home...and never made any effort to finalize it. Three years after he left, I finalized it myself. At the time, I felt it was what I needed to do to protect myself financially (my ex is a spender). I still feel the same.
That being said....now almost 3 years divorced....almost 6 years since BD - I have been NC with my Ex since the divorce was final. I say that I am NC...but, actually, I just allow my Ex to "control" our contact....he never contacts....and I don't reach out. We are divorced...it is done. We are NC.
There are some things to be said about finalizing the divorce that you never wanted.....different words and feelings come to mind. Sadness, anger, defeat, emptiness, apathy, empowerment, hope, utter and complete devastation.....
I would say that there is no joy in divorce. There is no happiness in divorce. I did feel a sense of relief. Relief that I no longer chose to allow myself to live in the fear that someday - the other shoe would drop. He would divorce me. I'd be forced to leave my home.
I no longer fear the future. The future is here....and it is what it is.
Now, almost 6 years later - I would appear to be Standing. There is no new person in my life, nor has there been one this entire time.
Yet....I am pretty much done. (Which is not quite totally done...but done, nonetheless).
Air has decided to get divorced. That is HER choice. If she is NC...that is HER choice. I can't understand the desire or need to judge her.
I sometimes feel that the Standing LBS here (some of them?) have so much internal hurt/anger/sadness/frustration that they end of picking on...or attacking other LBS. This is something that I cannot understand. Whatever differences we have...we ALL got hit by a Bomb Drop of some sort. We have ALL experienced the devastation of abandonment (even those with an MCLer still at home). We have ALL suffered from this crap.
I can't understand the inability to have empathy for another LBS. Heck, I sometimes see the LBS here having more empathy for MLCers than for other LBS. I just don't get this.
As far as I am concerned - if the LBS is able to come out the other end of this....and live some semblance of a life....then he/she is STRONG. If you can accept, let go, and move forward and create a life for yourself (without your MLCer), you are STRONG. If you are able to navigate through reconciliation - you are STRONG.
Is there some type of competition on which is more difficult? Or which makes you STRONGER?
I believe in MLC....I have seen it. It truly exists. But, I also agree with "So what?" My Ex had some issues that made him unable to cope with life, as it was....so he went into crisis, ran away, and spends his time chasing the elusive butterfly. "So what?" His choice. Not mine. Nothing can be done...nothing to be done. Maybe someday he'll catch the butterfly? Maybe he won't. If he learns nothing...that is on him.
Divorced - yes. Bitter - sometimes. Empathetic toward other LBS - most of the time, if not always.
JMHO,
L
I agree with all you wrote EXCEPT that you are a bitter divorce moderator - TOTALLY DISAGREE with that statement.
You are divorced and you are a moderator but NOT bitter. NOPE!
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Lets us all be reminded......
“You have your way. I have my way. As for the right way, the correct way, and the only way, it does not exist.”
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As Old Pilot has moved this discussion - so that we don't hijack another LBS' thread....I have added my comments to this thread.
BUT what I will say, (as someone who has been through hundreds of stories and archived information on here)..., is when you go back a few years between 2010 - 2012 there was a lot more reconciliations on here than there are now and it appears to me that no contact was hardly mentioned then.
It seems the advice was more about coming to terms with what has happened, mirroring the MLC'ers communication, getting stronger and then once you were ready GAL....
There were more reconciliations on here between 2010 - 2012 than now? Really? I have been on this site since October of 2010. In the early days, I read every thread. I knew just about every member's "story" and kept up on the status of all. In those days, there were fewer of us on this site.
In those days, we didn't have specials colored thread titles to identify those who were "reconnecting" or "reconciled." I have personally met many of the most active posters on this forum. Most are not reconciled. Most are not reconnecting.
After reading so many of these stories - I am a firm believer that an LBS could do "everything right" and not ever have a reconciliation. On the other hand, an LBS could do "everything wrong" and reconcile. I think with all the advice doled out in on how an LBS "should" respond (not react) to the MLCer - some of us come to believe that we can have an impact on their MLCers crisis. I think we sometimes we forget that very little of this is about us.
Recovery from MLC is, in my humble opinion, up to the MLCer. We can do the best we can NOT to be the scorned woman, NOT to feed into the drama, and NOT to firmly slam the door. A lighthouse merely shines a light. That's it. It's up to the captain of the ship to navigate his way.
The live as if he isn't coming back was never mentioned (as far as I can see) until 2012 onwards....
I assure you that "live as if he isn't coming back" was more than mentioned in the old days. I know, as this is something I didn't want to do. I couldn't imagine living without my spouse and I didn't want to read that I was to live as if......
From your post, I am inferring that you may believe that the site was "better" when LBS wrote only about Standing.....not being "done." By "better" I mean - more reconnections, more reconciliations.
In the old days, I read the articles like I was reading a "how to" book on getting my husband back.
I totally skipped all the articles about "mirror work" and "finding joy" for myself. Everything, at that time, was about getting back what I'd lost.
I didn't want to hear that my marriage was over (it was) or to live like he was never coming back (he certainly hasn't - almost 6 years later).
I would say that TIME changes pretty much everything. As TIME has gone by - I found that I needed to find joy in my life. I needed to make the tough decisions for ME. I needed to live as if he wasn't coming back. To do anything else (for me) was to NOT live. I found that not moving forward...kept me STUCK.
I don't want to rain on anyone's parade. Some of you will reconnect...some may even reconcile. I hope that you do. But, for many of us....that just isn't going to happen. I truly have just this life. I cannot allow another person's crisis to keep me from living it.
Is the door slightly ajar? I would be less than truthful if I said that it wasn't. That being said...I still need to live my life.
L
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What an excellent posting limitless! I seem to be a bit of a lightening rod to many of the STANDERS at all cost, but like limitless when I read 1troubles "comments" about there being MORE reconnection/reconcilations in the early days of this forum, I do went "what??"! Sorry, but that is absolutely not true. In fact, one of the people whom I thought was reconciled because she gave out advice as a RECONCILED person, turned out she wasn't.
Many talk about the old days when HeartsBlessing was a moderator, the only moderator actually, other then RCR, was here. For the record, LIVE LIKE THEY ARE NEVER GOING TO RETURN, was HER main mantra! That was daily advice that she dispensed. HB encouraged us to work on OURSELVES, to do mirror work, to restore ourselves in every way, mentally, emotionally and physically. Much of the advice we dispense today comes directly from her "teachings".
HB was a tough love advocate. She believed that the MLCer had to redeem him/herself, without true remorse and redemption, there could be no true reconciliation. That we did not need to be CRUEL/UNKIND but we had to be firm and stand strong in what we needed to see and have from our returner, in order to rebuild a new marriage. She repeated daily, that the OLD marriage was dead, whatever you had from this day forward was BRAND NEW
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Personally I don't see ANY bitter Moderators on this site.
Where is that coming from?
I see them jump on newbies threads and give them good advice and support and keep supporting the older LBS's. They give a lot of their time and I find them all helpful.
I hope I am. :-\
I'm not an advocate of NC, but in rare situations that may be my advice. When I think back I don't think anyone ever recommended I go NC.
I never went NC with my X. I had no reason to. My situation didn't call for it.
In an abusive relationships it's the only way to go...and even then if you do want to reconcile down the road there has to be SOME communication.
Just my 2 cents. :)
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Ok
I am not getting into another discussion on this and I am not having a go at anyone.......I went through all the threads I found a larger number of reconciled people, I will come back at some point and list them..
I am not having a go at moderators or anyone for that matter I was just stating what I had found and what I had seen and read.
I am not reconciled I am heading for divorce so I am not even standing on my soap box and saying I know best but here we go again.....
So apart from coming back here and putting up the names which I WILL DO
I am not taking part in this sort of stuff
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I thought I would add a comment - as I am (most likely) one of the divorced, bitter moderators.
Sigh.
I was married for 30 years before all this crap happened. My Ex filed for divorce a year after running away from home...and never made any effort to finalize it. Three years after he left, I finalized it myself. At the time, I felt it was what I needed to do to protect myself financially (my ex is a spender). I still feel the same.
That being said....now almost 3 years divorced....almost 6 years since BD - I have been NC with my Ex since the divorce was final. I say that I am NC...but, actually, I just allow my Ex to "control" our contact....he never contacts....and I don't reach out. We are divorced...it is done. We are NC.
There are some things to be said about finalizing the divorce that you never wanted.....different words and feelings come to mind. Sadness, anger, defeat, emptiness, apathy, empowerment, hope, utter and complete devastation.....
I would say that there is no joy in divorce. There is no happiness in divorce. I did feel a sense of relief. Relief that I no longer chose to allow myself to live in the fear that someday - the other shoe would drop. He would divorce me. I'd be forced to leave my home.
I no longer fear the future. The future is here....and it is what it is.
Now, almost 6 years later - I would appear to be Standing. There is no new person in my life, nor has there been one this entire time.
Yet....I am pretty much done. (Which is not quite totally done...but done, nonetheless).
Air has decided to get divorced. That is HER choice. If she is NC...that is HER choice. I can't understand the desire or need to judge her.
I sometimes feel that the Standing LBS here (some of them?) have so much internal hurt/anger/sadness/frustration that they end of picking on...or attacking other LBS. This is something that I cannot understand. Whatever differences we have...we ALL got hit by a Bomb Drop of some sort. We have ALL experienced the devastation of abandonment (even those with an MCLer still at home). We have ALL suffered from this crap.
I can't understand the inability to have empathy for another LBS. Heck, I sometimes see the LBS here having more empathy for MLCers than for other LBS. I just don't get this.
As far as I am concerned - if the LBS is able to come out the other end of this....and live some semblance of a life....then he/she is STRONG. If you can accept, let go, and move forward and create a life for yourself (without your MLCer), you are STRONG. If you are able to navigate through reconciliation - you are STRONG.
Is there some type of competition on which is more difficult? Or which makes you STRONGER?
I believe in MLC....I have seen it. It truly exists. But, I also agree with "So what?" My Ex had some issues that made him unable to cope with life, as it was....so he went into crisis, ran away, and spends his time chasing the elusive butterfly. "So what?" His choice. Not mine. Nothing can be done...nothing to be done. Maybe someday he'll catch the butterfly? Maybe he won't. If he learns nothing...that is on him.
Divorced - yes. Bitter - sometimes. Empathetic toward other LBS - most of the time, if not always.
JMHO,
L
I agree with all you wrote EXCEPT that you are a bitter divorce moderator - TOTALLY DISAGREE with that statement.
You are divorced and you are a moderator but NOT bitter. NOPE!
The phrase about bitter divorced people has always kind of confused me , I see plenty of people who are bitter but not all or them are divorced !! . In fact some of my married friends are more bitter than my divorced friends will ever be.
I have always felt that bitterness has nothing to do with marital status , age or sex it has to do with the way you handle things in your life . My Father constantly blames others for the problems in his life and refuses to look at himself that has led to his bitterness not him being divorced or married .
Callan
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Can we just STOP? Please!
Before I say anything further, I would like to say this to Airmid: I had no idea posting what I did on your thread would end up being the equivalent of throwing gas on a fire. I feel bad that it took the turns that it did, especially if you don't feel well.
To everyone here, I would like to say PLEASE read what I am saying before you get your panties in a bunch and fly off a post to make this worse!
I read through Airmid's thread again today, because quite frankly, I am still a little stunned as to what exactly I said that caused such a heated reaction and one question I found that I had not seen is "where did this come from?" So that is what I would like to tell you in this post, with the hope that everyone here can actually read it and THINK ABOUT IT before you reply. We say to reply and not react to our mlcers. Please give this the same consideration, with a reply and not a reaction.
Here goes nothin':
Where did this come from? First, I had been reading along on Airmid's thread. She posted and Onward made a reply showing concern and Airmid posted a laundry list of negative reasons and ideas all completely expanded from what Onward had said. Her thread, she can say what she wants, for sure.
My frustration with this is that there has been this barrage of negativity here. This board was not like this when I got here or I'd have left. I DID that in December and for two months I never looked at a single thread.
I read Airmid's post of all these negative things about all of that and thought to myself that this is exactly what this board has come to, all summed up in that post and one other post. All negative. Not saying Airmid doesn't have the right to feel negative. That is SO not it at all. Please read that again. This is not about Airmid being negative, it is about the BOARD being negative.
The general vibe on this board is negative. It's been discussed before so I know I am not saying something from out in left field here. Take two months off the board and come back and you will see it, if you don't see it now.
Airmid posts a lot to newbies, which is something I find hard to do and so she has a following that I do not. When I saw such a negative list of points made by someone with such a following, that made me want to show them that you CAN put a positive spin on this. I won't say "if you want to" because I am aware that would imply that Airmid does not want to be positive. What I "heard" was someone who has given up hope. I made points to show there CAN be hope, there CAN be positive found in this.
There is a group, and yes I am saying that. There is a group here that encourages this negative way of thinking and to me, it appears that Airmid has been influence by this group.
Now switching to my questions about strength. Completely taken the wrong way, by the way. Yes, if you skim and don't read and think about it, I will say they sound harsh. I did not mean them to sound harsh, but like others here, I don't sugar coat if I want to get my point across. When I asked those questions. It was more my concern that Airmid had been backed into a corner and thought this was her only answer, her ticket to freedom, peace and tranquility. I DID want her to think about whether or not she was strong enough to be making this decision. I was not being mean or filled with hatred, as some of you think. I honestly wanted her to think about whether or not she is as strong as she appears to be to others. Why? Because what if a year from now she is much stronger and she then has doubts about whether or not she has done the right thing?
Sure, it's one of those "what if" questions, but having "been there, done that" myself, I wanted to use my experience to help her think about whether or not this is really what she wants. Her threads say so much about how she thought they had a good life. Negative feeds on negative and now she sees it wasn't a good life?
Yes, obviously we all have to evaluate for ourselves whether or not we had the life we thought, but that is also why I asked those questions. I had a fresh set of eyes on reading her thread. The rest of her supporters have been encouraging, but are they willing to question her or are they just wanting to see her keep moving? Certainly, she is STRONGER, and I maybe should have pointed that out before my questions, but I really just wanted to say "hey, are you sure you're up to this?" That was the intent behind the questions, a concern that the negative aspect of this board had taken over her thoughts and was she really strong enough to decide anything right now?
Maybe she feels that she is and that's great. Let her decide that for herself though, before the rest of you fly off the handle thinking that I have attacked her. Maybe you are too close to the situation to feel right in asking pointed questions. I don't know. I just know that I read her posts and wanted to give her a different point of view before it was too late. Perhaps I am to late to the party, but I do know that at the times when I have been ready to give up, someone has come along and said something to me that made me think about it and I am still standing. That is what this board was for, at least I thought so...to encourage standing. Not to water it down with the idea that you are standing for yourself, but to actually stand for your marriage or your relationship. Has ANYONE given her that thought at all recently? Or are there so many here now that encourage doing just what you need to do for yourself and NOT for your marriage?
READ. Educate yourself on all of it. Learn about everything you can possibly know so that you can make an informed decision on your own, with support as needed. See if there is a way to find compassion for your spouse. I see people blasted left and right about why the spouse should get any compassion when they did what they did. Geeeze people...look at yourselves! This site used to be about that! The people that pm me all want that back, but they fear saying it. Seriously. There are wonderful people with compassion for everyone, including spouses and they are afraid to say that here! On a message board linked to a site called LOVE ANYWAY.
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It is sad if there are people who feel afraid to show compassion to their MLCer in their posts. I know there may be people who will question people who feel afraid to post something and will say they have never felt afraid to post anything but we are all different and we are all allowed to have different feelings . I have said it before and I will say it again we may not understand other peoples feelings but they are their feelings .
I am not afraid to show compassion to my H in my posts but that is just me , I am well aware that there are others who would not feel the same . One thing that I have learned from this whole journey is that me not understanding someones feelings should not invalidate them . I am not saying I always manage this but I do try really hard .
After a long spell on indifference from my H our last few encounters have be argumentative but the good things is that we have both been trying to validate how the other feels , it does not always work but I can see that in the past I may not have validated how he felt and he did the same to me . This is a tiny step for us to be trying to hear each other after so much hurt and pain .
I can only describe the last couple of years as being too noisy to make sense of some of the things he says but now it seems clearer and I see different meanings in what he says . I don't mean that I see " yayyy H is coming home " I mean I see some effort from him to make amends and where as in the past I was not ready to hear those words now I am . I hope that makes some sense .
Callan
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I thought I would add a comment - as I am (most likely) one of the divorced, bitter moderators.
Sigh.
I agree with all you wrote EXCEPT that you are a bitter divorce moderator - TOTALLY DISAGREE with that statement.
You are divorced and you are a moderator but NOT bitter. NOPE!
Thanks, OP.
I wrote that a bit tongue in cheek. :o
As I am divorced - I put myself in the "bitter" box.....I certainly couldn't put myself in the divorced and "happy" box. There is no joy in divorce. I wouldn't wish it on anyone.
I do feel bitter, at times. But those times are rare and brief. ;)
As for the comments about negativity. I have sometimes been described as "negative". I struggle with the words negative and pessimistic vs. realistic or "hopeful."
Is the glass 1/2 full or 1/2 empty? Well, for me, that depends upon what the glass represents. If the glass is my husband - then the glass no longer exists. It is very difficult (read impossible) to be 1/2 full - when it isn't there anymore. Maybe it is 1/2 full in the kitchen where it resides? I would have no idea. If the scant info I am given from my kids is any indication - the glass is empty.
I really wish that I could have some compassion towards my Ex. If I am being completely honest - I don't. I used to think that would come with TIME. But, it hasn't. I had more compassion for him in the early days after BD, as he had been completely successful in convincing me that ALL of it was my fault.
I look back at what he did, what he chose, the pain he caused....etc. and I feel no compassion. I feel that he let his family down.
I have now lowered my expectations to zero and he no longer disappoints.
If that is negative...that's ok. It is honestly how I feel about it today - after 69 weeks post BD.
L
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What I suggest is that that there are a few topics that perhaps should be openly discussed.
- Whether standers should be the only ones who are on the HS forum?
- Whether NC (which as far as I can see - I really was never in) is a doomsday to a R?
- Is there a role for the "Bitter" divorced moderators on the forum?
But I suggest that you take these discussions to an independent thread so they can be discussed objectively - and not in context of how I have lived my life.
Airmid requested a separate thread be used to discuss these issues I will start it here.
I believe that every LBS is welcome and that we need to be respectful of each other because it is clear that our journeys have different aspects. There is no one size fits all! Our commonalities bring us together, our shock at BD, our struggles to get back on our feet, the anguish and pain, the realization that what we had once dreamed is dead - this community helps us feel less alone and sets us on the path to recovery, of course, what this recovery looks like is bound to be different from person to person, the time it takes, varies a lot, too. I think the mix is good, what is not good is lack of respect for individual positions.
NC is not my favorite subject - when I was a very little girl, growing up with five younger brothers and sisters, my father used to be very firm with us regarding the usual bickering and squabbling among siblings. He would not allow us to 'refuse' to talk to the offending party. He always said that we did not resolve things in that way :)
I do not initiate contact with my h. who is mostly unwilling to talk to me, so we go long, long stretches without any contact, however, I initiate for Christmas, Easter, Father's day, and his birthday with no expectations of being corresponded. I allow him to control any other communication and when that happens, I correspond in kind. I do not like NC being proposed and I don't think I have ever recommended it. I can understand that it may be necessary to protect the LBS from "monster" - I never had a very bad monster and I am very good at avoiding painful situations, I am not a sucker for suffering ;D
I am divorced, I have examined myself and I don't think I am bitter, perhaps a little 'jaded' but not bitter. I have too much to do and think about to be bitter! I can't think of any moderator who is divorced and bitter, actually.
Hey Limitless, you aren't bitter!!! ;)
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I have no idea what happened on Air's page and I read it so I must have lost the final something but I did want to chime in because our paths are kind of the same.
2014 my Now EX started actually strange. He was a professor and was given a girl age 32 to help with her research project the summer of 2013. I have no idea but something in me said this wasn't a good idea and I voiced that. He just started this new teaching job and I must have felt something brewing in my soul because i told him I thought they should give this girl to a woman. He had never cheated, looked at anyone that I knew of and I had no reason to think he would ever cheat but I must have felt something was going on before I registered it mentally.
By Feb 2014 he did the whole change look thing, fitness thing and by March of 2014 he started to not come home saying he was hanging out with students. By May of 2014 I actually said to him you are leaving me which in turn started the whole BD thing. He never even to this day as he has now moved to the same state as the OW said or talked about their relationship. He will still say he didn't have an affair. 2 weeks after BD he went and saw an attorney and about a month later some charges showed up in the mail which scared the crap out of because he was actually moving forward with this divorce. I called a attorney who informed me that I better do something because he's probably going after the IRA. So off to the attorney I go and as thought he did go after the IRA. I'm guessing he found out how much it was going to cost to get a divorce and used that as his open door to getting some of the money out. I served him papers before he had a chance to serve me and it was good for me to have done that as it marked him as being in an affair.
The point here is YES I did file but did so to protect myself as my EX for some of you who has been reading my threads was extremely Manic and angry so I had no idea what he would or wouldn't do and he wasn't consistent. He never took money out of our joint account because I think he also lived off the IRA so he could have money to use I wouldn't see but then he would hound me on other thing over and over. I was still living in the same house with him and then he started recording me and I had to get him out.
Filing for the divorce kind of gave me some control. I was able to string in a long a bit hoping for change. It actually worked in my favor because in Feb 2015 we had to go into mediation and mediation worked in my favor because MLC'er H could figure out anything so they all had to relay on what I said and I was being fair. So, I got what I needed and MLCer didn't fight anything.
Filing for the divorce also protected me so I had someone to turn to when he did all the crazy things he did.
Filing for divorce and this is my one regret labeled me as the one who wanted the divorce. NOW, MLCer gets to tell his parents I left him. All our friends know that isn't the case and why I did what I did but MLC wanted me to file so he pushed and pushed me to do so through his action knowing I would at some point have to do something and it work. I still hate that I was the one to file but I was scared.
Am I a stander?
YES but I do believe he will never come back. I do believe he is one to leave and never look back. He acted fast by going to an attorney. He isn't one to do things reasonably and all he could think about was OW. If he ever questioned anything about staying I never saw that. I think the divorce will keep him from coming back and that is a risk we take for protecting ourselves.
As of OCT 5th our divorce was final and as of NOV something, something changed in La la land because for the most part he response to my emails, does what I need him to do with business and if I do the work he will sign everything I need him to sign. He treats me better now thing in the last 2 years. I don't know if he is still seeing OW or not because he never says anything but I'm pretty sure he still wants the divorce as is. He doesn't really contact me unless he needs something or I needed something and contacted him. There is never any chitchat.
I still believe I am a stander. MY EX H is in my soul. I can't get rid of that. I will always love who he was, pray for healing. I'm moving forward as though he's never coming back but that doesn't lessing my stand.
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As I am divorced - I put myself in the "bitter" box.....I certainly couldn't put myself in the divorced and "happy" box. There is no joy in divorce. I wouldn't wish it on anyone.
This is so TRUE Limitless. Divorce is a path I would not wish on anyone and definitely not one I would have chosen for myself. I have bounced back and am doing well, but I still see the pain that it has caused my children on a daily basis. They are forced to live out of duffel bags as they are bounced back and forth from house to house. They are not sure which place is their home and never really know where they are going to be. I try my hardest to be the consistency that they need, but it is so difficult when you have someone constantly working against you.
The cold hard reality is that none of us imagined our lives ending this way, and the best we can do is pick up the pieces and move forward the best we can.
Hugs to you.
Faithfully
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Whether standers should be the only ones who are on the HS forum?
Whether NC (which as far as I can see - I really was never in) is a doomsday to a R?
Is there a role for the "Bitter" divorced moderators on the forum?
OK here is the verdict from the Swedish jury! ;)
A, It's an almost open forum isn't it? Am I standing or not. Honestly I have no freaking idea. I was abused so "standing" would make me a kamikaze pilot, doesn't it? Am I not standing? Don't know this either. I'm not rushing around trying to find someone new. Take one day at time. IF I happen to run into someone nice and interesting and it's mutual, I would not turn him down. Is that not standing? Conclusion, me myself and I cycle about this question so much and I think I'm not the only one, so why should not, NOT standers be allowed on the HS forum?
B, NC doomsday to a R. I have no idea! I do know, for me (only talking about me here) I put more value in my own healing, not ever want to have contact with a person who has no respect for me. This, for me, goes for all interactions I have with people. I cut them out of my life. NOT MY KIDS!!! Speaking from my experience with my mlc dad (never came out of the tunnel) he ran away for 4-5 years or so (back in the early 80th) he then contacted me and behaved like he never left, still confuses me a lot that someone can do this. He died 2006 or something and all these years he tried to contact me several times. As for my mlc mother (she was the one who had the affair, lasted 3-4 years weekend and holidays only) she is now in her 80th, she never apologized (what I know about) to my dad, still in her tunnel, tried to apologize to us children when I was in my 30th. She got worse and worse, more and more narc behavior when she got older, pity parties a lot. I cut contact approx. 2008. She tries to contact me, trough my coworkers/friends etc. and some direct contact. Got one HUGE birthday card 2 years ago, really strange card with lots of photos of me when I was young/younger. My Conclusion, I think NC or no NC, they still reach out, may take a little bit longer but they reach out.
C, Bitter? What is "bitter"? Is bitter someone who is harsh? direct? have different views of stuff? Who is envious? Angry? Negative? I can be all of the above and so can everyone else. Somedays S*CKS (try living in my part of the world when it's 0 degrees and raining + darkness 6 months every year) ;D, that's just the way life is. These are the days I want a baseball bat and my mlc in close range! 8) Other days are not so bad and positive, these are the days when your pupils return from winter holliday with a chocolate box specially for me. Conclusion everyone that is on this forum and contributing with the healing, with their knowledge in medicine/psychology/law or what ever has a role in this forum, mentor or not.
I try to do my best on this forum, I do have a vanisher so I don't have so much info (yet) but I can give my thoughts and maybe some will find them useful some might not. Conclusion on this, this is my way of trying to pay back to others, the help I got from all of you on this forum, when I was at the bottom of this mess.
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Personally l've always thought the forum needs lots of other open sections.There are so many things to this new life we've all been thrown into , not only the marriage or what's left of it stuff itself .
lt'd be good to just be able to talk about all sorts of things too with others going through all this but just on your own thread doesn't cover it.
But then just reading what some have said about the earlier days and the more R's and whatnot , maybe it is better or the intention of the forum to just stick to solely the marriage and mlc stuff , l'm not sure.
l can see bug advantages in the focusing on all that too and so l've never taken it further.
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Hi all:
This is easy commentary for me - BD was 8 years ago last Friday.
X still drifting in fog, pokes head out occasionally to see if I'm still around.
LBS Epiphany moment was realization that X did less than nothing in relationship when you take out intimate moments.
Angry, absolutely however tempered with pity.
Bitter - Not, Logical yes. Help in solving my issue with attracting damaged women.
It was helpful early on after initial BD to express the overwhelming rage I felt for this destruction heaped on by the MLC'r. I raged on another site and started to temper commentary when I hooked up with HS, although I can truly say I have been chastised for various opinions.
Kindest words spoken on my behalf came from my last surviving uncle - "Thank God for you"
Peace to you all
Mac
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I raged on another site and started to temper commentary when I hooked up with HS, although I can truly say I have been chastised for various opinions.
Yea I seem to remember that you were Mac47 at that time............
Now you are 54.... LOL
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OP
I like to show that the LBS survives whether or not the MLC'r is in the picture.
Mac
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I'll express myself even though I wasn't ever dealing at any time with a loving kind thoughtful considerate spouse who simply ( from the postings I've read) just appeared to simply stop caring..
My thoughts on NC are this:
At the very least you end up suffering a lot less damage from their abusive attacks and language or filling you in on the OW/OM . Trying to drag you down with them and inflict their misery on you.Your well-being is what you need to concern yourself with -not theirs. Self compassion it crucial.
It gives YOU time to breathe and refocus. If you are human.. you need time to heal.
And I can cause more damage ( and so can they) that is why I have left it up to my adult children to contact me if they want too. They have had very little control since this started.
I have made a small token move in my youngest D's direction through a relative. No response yet which is good. I haven't been blocked on social network And I have to be content with that.
In my own defense I had no idea what I was dealing with.Until I was completely away from it. I was unaware lied to and mislead for pretty much the entire time of the relationship. All he and I did was fight..unless I agreed with him.
I have forgiven myself for being soooooo stupid. I stayed as long as I did due to foo issues, finances, and because the family being intact once meant everything to me.
It took my head hitting the pavement to wake me up to just what kind of whack job I had been dealing with.
I once read someone post that what the OW/OM didn't get was their youth, the way we did.
Well nothing depresses me more than the fact that the x got mine. I have to move forward from that and accept the truth that I spent half my life with someone who never cared about me. To him it was all a big lie and a game.
I love myself more than to go back. Or even go back in time and try and paint some romantic mutual fulfilling picture of a relationship that didn't exist. Or even something that could be "fixed" as I don't ever planning putting the effort out in that direction again.
Bitter?.. maybe at times..jaded...I guess....mostly disillusioned.
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InIt,
I can somewhat relate.
My 1st X was a very sick man. He was not a faithful H and was a very selfish father. I learned years later he was a true narcissist.
He never abused any of us physically, but emotional abuse can be just as harmful.
He left scars on everyone of my kids and myself. I was so young (17) when we got married and at that time he was shy and sweet.
But he grew into a monster as the years went by. He terrorized us for a long time.
I have never missed being with him after the D and I forgave him. His childhood was one of the worse I knew of (drunken, physically abusive to the whole family). How can a person grow up like that and be anywhere near normal?
I've said before when I compare the kind of father he was, compared to his father, he really was a good father "in his mind."
Anyway, HE is the type of man who I should have gone NC with.
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I never went NC. Even when we weren't talking, we had a weird routine of getting up at 5:30 am and going to the gym together. Barely any exchange of pleasantries, but then my wife's MLC wasn't as deep as some here and while we lived separately in different parts of the house, we still co-habitated.
My observation of our community, however, is that there is an unspoken apprehension about NC:
Will going NC cause me to emotionally distance and re-examine the relationship?
IMO this fear is often rooted in codependency and a tenacious reluctance to examine our own growth opportunity out of codependency. Sometimes, through this lens, NC advise sounds like a threatening and BITTER medicine. That can progress to a projection on someone offering such advise.
JMO...take what you want from that.
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T-
This jackass didn't have some horrible drunken childhood. The ex liked to paint the "white picket fence" scenario so "normal" and healthy. It wasn't.
What he did not acknowledge that was unhealthy ( his father's control, temper, entitlement issues and his mothers enabling) he would not plug it into effecting him or his own childhood.
And I think anybody would think I had a pretty big screw loose of I was still talking to or having anything to do with him after his behavior ( threatening, stalking, menacing, harrassing, verbally abusive like he pretty much has been anyway so it wasn't easy for me to see I was being disrespected) starting with just 5 years ago and after the DV incident.
I'm out of the drama business. NC was a matter of self preservation. It isn't for everybody. But if you have tried everything - it's the only thing left.
As hokey as this sounds look up on line what to do after a break up divorce etc and any article I have ever read suggests you go NC for a certain amount of time.
As far as my kids? I did not see that coming. It is their wishes I'm respecting by not communicating and they have given me no clear direct way to make contact with them. Or at least one I would consider using.
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I guess my opinion on NC is that it is different for each situation. Each crisis is different.
My W has never Monstered or been nasty to me therefore we are able to communicate. I obviously let her initiate the contact but I am not short with her. I will answer in a polite manner and it seems to work for us right now. If she did start to monster then I would not respond in the same manner.
We just have to remember that each crisis is different, some have serious monsters on their hands and are verbally abusive and I think in that case NC is a good option for the LBS to save themselves from that kind of behavior.
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There is no joy in divorce.
But there is joy in being free and single. :)
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Whether standers should be the only ones who are on the HS forum?
Whether NC (which as far as I can see - I really was never in) is a doomsday to a R?
Is there a role for the "Bitter" divorced moderators on the forum?
OK here is the verdict from the Swedish jury! ;)
A, It's an almost open forum isn't it? Am I standing or not. Honestly I have no freaking idea. I was abused so "standing" would make me a kamikaze pilot, doesn't it? Am I not standing? Don't know this either. I'm not rushing around trying to find someone new. Take one day at time. IF I happen to run into someone nice and interesting and it's mutual, I would not turn him down. Is that not standing? Conclusion, me myself and I cycle about this question so much and I think I'm not the only one, so why should not, NOT standers be allowed on the HS forum?
B, NC doomsday to a R. I have no idea! I do know, for me (only talking about me here) I put more value in my own healing, not ever want to have contact with a person who has no respect for me. This, for me, goes for all interactions I have with people. I cut them out of my life. NOT MY KIDS!!! Speaking from my experience with my mlc dad (never came out of the tunnel) he ran away for 4-5 years or so (back in the early 80th) he then contacted me and behaved like he never left, still confuses me a lot that someone can do this. He died 2006 or something and all these years he tried to contact me several times. As for my mlc mother (she was the one who had the affair, lasted 3-4 years weekend and holidays only) she is now in her 80th, she never apologized (what I know about) to my dad, still in her tunnel, tried to apologize to us children when I was in my 30th. She got worse and worse, more and more narc behavior when she got older, pity parties a lot. I cut contact approx. 2008. She tries to contact me, trough my coworkers/friends etc. and some direct contact. Got one HUGE birthday card 2 years ago, really strange card with lots of photos of me when I was young/younger. My Conclusion, I think NC or no NC, they still reach out, may take a little bit longer but they reach out.
C, Bitter? What is "bitter"? Is bitter someone who is harsh? direct? have different views of stuff? Who is envious? Angry? Negative? I can be all of the above and so can everyone else. Somedays S*CKS (try living in my part of the world when it's 0 degrees and raining + darkness 6 months every year) ;D, that's just the way life is. These are the days I want a baseball bat and my mlc in close range! 8) Other days are not so bad and positive, these are the days when your pupils return from winter holliday with a chocolate box specially for me. Conclusion everyone that is on this forum and contributing with the healing, with their knowledge in medicine/psychology/law or what ever has a role in this forum, mentor or not.
I try to do my best on this forum, I do have a vanisher so I don't have so much info (yet) but I can give my thoughts and maybe some will find them useful some might not. Conclusion on this, this is my way of trying to pay back to others, the help I got from all of you on this forum, when I was at the bottom of this mess.
This was powerful, and I agree totally. I try my best to post positive things just for this reason. I don't always succeed, but that is my intention. I have moved on, and I'm healing.
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1 - Whether standers should be the only ones who are on the HS forum?
2 -Whether NC (which as far as I can see - I really was never in) is a doomsday to a R?
3 - Is there a role for the "Bitter" divorced moderators on the forum?
My replies.
1- No. But we should all have in mind that this is a site, and board, aimed at trying to reduce divorce and increase reconciliations. This is HS mission statement:
To provide information, advice and support on how to Stand for marriage to men and women experiencing midlife crisis and infidelity in their marriages.
To prevent divorces.
To reduce the overall rate of divorce.
To encourage an alternative to divorce.
To encourage personal growth and loving of one’s Self.
This does not meant that, if necessary, divorce must not be an option.
2 - It seems that those who reconciled usually not have cut contact with their MLCer. Or if they have done it, it was for a short period, and usually not early on. It also seems that those with boomerangs have better chances of reconciliation. Clingers are included in boomerangs. At a point I went NC. But I have a MLCer who was physically abusive. Also, it was becoming too much to me to handle Mr J and his anger. I don't think it has helped the changes of reconciliation one bit. It has, however, done wonders for my mental sanity and peace of mind.
3 - Sometimes people here are bitter. We all have good and bad days. We all have stages in our journey. But divorced does not equal bitter.
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There is no joy in divorce.
But there is joy in being free and single. :)
This made me smile today.
Thanks for the smile, Honour.
L
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1 - Whether standers should be the only ones who are on the HS forum?
2 -Whether NC (which as far as I can see - I really was never in) is a doomsday to a R?
3 - Is there a role for the "Bitter" divorced moderators on the forum?
1. I don't think there should be limitations on who can use HS. I think people who are standers, people getting a divorce unwillingly, people who initiated the divorce, couples reconnecting or reconciling all have things we can learn from each other. I also think it would be very artificial to exclude people who eventually decided not to stand. Like Anjae said I think all should be welcome as long as we keep the mission on the site in mind.
2. I have no idea whether NC is a doomsday to a R but I do feel personally that where possible maintaining connection is desirable. Early after BD I went through the Marital Fitness program by Mort Fertel which is not specific to MLC. However, he is a big proponent of connection and believes in systematically initiating non logistical contact. His program made sense for me and his philosophy about consistency of behavior was one that I found very helpful. Based on his program I have chosen to initiate non-logistical contact consistently. This is usually means a text or email about something random, a news article, a joke, whatever works at the time. Since we also co-parent well and see each other daily this does mean that I see my h quite a bit. It can be very difficult to detach when you communicate regularly with MLC. I have had to learn how to be friendly without reading too much into his behaviors (good or bad). That is obviously easier said than done. I also realize that I have the luxury of a MLCer who is not abusive, who no longer does the monster spew, or does not taunt me with OW. I have no problem with people choosing whatever contact level works for them as long as they choose it because it is right for them and not as a punishment to MLC for his/her bad behavior.
3. I think the moderators are largely positive. I have interacted with a few people here who I have felt were bitter but those are not necessarily the people who are divorced. I think the term "bitter" is an interesting one. For me I keep saying that I refuse to be bitter because then MLC has definitely won. MLC can take my marriage and it can take my H and it can even take my identity of being married to my high school sweetheart but I will not allow it to take the essence of who I am!
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1 - Whether standers should be the only ones who are on the HS forum?
2 -Whether NC (which as far as I can see - I really was never in) is a doomsday to a R?
3 - Is there a role for the "Bitter" divorced moderators on the forum?
I don't think most people realize that I lived with an MLCer for a good 6 years before I went to Europe. I had a stay home, live in MLCer. Admittedly, I was also going through menopause, so believe me, neither of us were a picnic to be with.
1. Definitely not! STANDERS/NON STANDERS/TOTALLY DONE/DIVORCED AGAINST THEIR WILL/ DIVORCED by PERSONAL CHOICE... all belong here! We need each other. Bitter or compassionate, angry or accepting! We all bring something special to the table, something that we ALL can benefit from.
2. NC... Elray have I told you lately that I love you! You say the most interesting things, in the most intriguing way. I tend to agree, NC for codependent's is horrible. I know, because I was codependent. Strange eh, considering as my h was gone a good 1/3 of the year, yet somehow I managed to become codependent. Lol. I became addicted to PRAISE. Oh Stayed, you are so strong. You cope so well. Is there anything you can't do. Need I go on? I couldn't do enough "things" to prove how capable and competent I was. I brought so much of this on myself. I see it all so clearly now.
No contact, as InIt says... prevents further damage. That I believe. I never went NC with my h, not completely. AS Anjae said, I am one of the reconciled, who never completely broke contact. My h went missing for the odd week or two, up to a month when he reneged on his last promise to return, then of course, ran off with OW for a month or so, before he again reconsidered. I'm not sure which try it was, 4th. or maybe the 5th. was the charm... can't remember. Still, we were in separate homes, hell separate countries... distance truly helped. Being in separate countries for the last 18 months or so, really prevented any further damage. Bottom line, I wish I had gone NC sooner.
3. If sad is bitter, then I guess we need "bitter moderators"! There is no such thing on this forum. The moderators do this for free. It is their free time, that THEY give to this forum because they know what BD was like. Because they truly want to lessen the pain, or at the very least, reduce the length of time that the LBS suffers.
They know that every person is unique and different. They know the pain. All they try to do, is help you CARRY it, as they know, nobody can lessen or take it away. They all know, there is comfort in knowing others are there with you.
I agree Hawk, we need more open discussion threads. Is there a way that we can all be notified of one being started OP, so it is easily found?
Hugs Stayed
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An interesting discussion. Just adding a little twist to it, since I'm not really a fan of close-ended questions :-)
1) As an inclusive forum, HS welcomes standers and those who are not/no longer standing. An interesting open-ended reflective question might be:
To what degree, and in what specific ways, does one's identification as a stander, or not, frame one's individual participation in discussion? (For clarity, suggest standing as defined here:
http://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/stand.html)
2) I think the more open ended question here is what influence does NC have on connection between a couple? And extrapolating from that, what influence does connection play in reconciliation?
3) Since "bitter" is in the eye of the beholder, maybe the more open-ended reflective question here is, in what ways do the experiences of divorce, and the experiences of long-term standing influence the advice provided on HS?
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There is no joy in divorce.
But there is joy in being free and single. :)
Yeah well this is the weirdest thing Honour, l had 10 x more fun and offers when l was married than l'm getting single. lt drives me nuts now because hey, l'm single , l've been dumped, l can do what l want now yet , although yeah there's beena few women but nothing even close to what was around when l was married, same with partying on offer,
Must be that wedding ring thing.
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Just on the outside thread thing, l also reckon on one hand we should be able to start discussions if that's what you wanna call it about anything we want , your own thread doesn't work with that.
Though in saying that , l can also get, and respect the club wanting to keep the focus on mlc'g, standing and whatnot, bc it is a very serious thing, hugely so and what it's about.
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Just on the outside thread thing, l also reckon on one hand we should be able to start discussions if that's what you wanna call it about anything we want , your own thread doesn't work with that.
I'm with Hawk on this one!
I would like to read about things and ideas what you LBS's did for your "healing process ". Not so much GALing stuff more like this; someone wrote B12 is good for anxiety. I did not know this!
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Hi All.
:)
Disclaimer here is that I haven't gone through the thread. ;D I am read the ending kinda reader then I backtrack. Reverse engineering maybe. :)
Onward's questions I think are interesting cos I was reading on another forum thread " what brought you HERE" as opposed to anywhere else I suppose.
An interesting discussion. Just adding a little twist to it, since I'm not really a fan of close-ended questions :-)
1) As an inclusive forum, HS welcomes standers and those who are not/no longer standing. An interesting open-ended reflective question might be:
To what degree, and in what specific ways, does one's identification as a stander, or not, frame one's individual participation in discussion? (For clarity, suggest standing as defined here:http://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/stand.html)
I came here from survivinginfidelity because of a lot of "kick him to the curb" messages and wanted to find somewhere that didn't think I was crazy for wanting my marriage despite infidelity and H's totally out of character behaviour. Also I wanted the "long marriages" perspective not the boyfriend/girlfriend or short term relationship perspective.
In that I mean, if the BF/GF or H cheated during the wedding or before, it just seemed like they were dealing with a whole different animal from a decades long "ordinary/sometimes squabbling up down" marriage that not only went South but followed the Penguins to an inhospitable land.
I have from the start believed in the site banner "Dealing with Midlife crisis and infidelity when you don't want a Divorce". I learned what a stand was and that it was what I wanted to do. I have also been over to Heartsblessings site where she has a wonderful array of quotes and one that sticks to me most is that there are no guarantees but where there is love there is always hope.
And I agree with HB when she says over and over the MLCer is not "sick" but the MLCer is not "Monster" either, their behaviour stems from being in pain and lost and is often hurtful and cruel and that it is best to detach from such behaviour but to also have compassion and be able to switch to and from " detached" when the situation warrants it. I found it really hard to do and am still working on it honestly. :)
Whatever contribution to a discussion I make is purely from a personal perspective and I refrain (not always successfully) ;) from commenting when it is outside my " this is what happened to me, this is how I dealt with it and this is the result" kind of thing usually. I love the support from those who have been there but like I hear a lot, "take what you need and leave the rest" because you are the only one in your situation when it comes down to it and you know best.
2) I think the more open ended question here is what influence does NC have on connection between a couple? And extrapolating from that, what influence does connection play in reconciliation?
I really think it is again a question of timing and the situation you find yourself in. Physically abusive situations on one hand and seductive charming cake eating on the other. Both are damaging.
At BD, I was a mess. After a few weeks, I told IC/MC I needed to separate from H. Looking back we were already in separate countries, so it was an emotional and I think spiritual separation I knew had to happen. But as H was a clinging cake eater boomerang ::) >:( ;D, I had not only to dig deep and find my emotional and spiritual centre but also to have it tested again and again. But with each interaction, I not only discovered what I wanted but what I wouldn't accept anymore. So for me, interaction sparked mirror work.
For H, he says that it did as well. When he saw me able to speak my "truth" he knew came from in me, he questioned why he could not do the same. This by the way was only from the last MC session on Monday so it has been a recent "dawning realisation" as he calls it.
It is a journey that is so different yet the same for the MLCer and LBS, a journey towards wholeness and healing as HB says, whether the outcome is with or without a restored marriage. But I believe that reconnection is not Reconcilliation because of this journey neither is the same. However, reconnecting requires two so interaction between two parties must be taking place for that to happen.
Again, timing is delicate because the two parties are not at the same stages of dealing with personal issues, one has done mirror work while the other has been the champion avoider of mirror work. And this goes both ways. I know I have my own demons to face, awakened by the crisis, of being fixer and trust issues galore. ::) 8) Patience and compassion has to come and go both ways in reconnecting. My $0.02
3) Since "bitter" is in the eye of the beholder, maybe the more open-ended reflective question here is, in what ways do the experiences of divorce, and the experiences of long-term standing influence the advice provided on HS?
I find some really long term Standers who have come back to share and update, the most inspirational people and I thank them. :)
Peace and strengh
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I hear you Stayed. I wish I had gone NC sooner. It may have dawned on me just what I was trying to deal with.I'll hit the 3 year mark in a couple of months. And also wish I had left the marriage sooner.
If LBS's maybe viewed NC from the perspective of leaving the MLcer alone ( maybe even try to look at it as any contact will hinder or hold up the process) and also not allowing the mlcer to "run the show" ( boundaries) in the Lbs's life.
Let go of control and for peace of mind resign as being general manager of the universe.
An LBS may slow down the process by engaging in conversations that go no where and keep both people stuck. Or any toxic cycle or game. Any contact may do damage that you might not even be aware of. It can manifest physically after an encounter.
What I've done to help heal:
Post here, get feedback, read (although that has kind of moved into reading about NPD). Not because I'm interested so much, more like how to deal with people who exhibit the behavior of it and then reading about how you heal from it...recognize it and either learn how to deal with it in a person in your life or just admit to yourself it just isn't worth the energy or effort.
It's a personality disorder that everyone else ends up in therapy for while the person who has it goes untreated. Then they sit back and say "See I told you she was crazy or something is wrong with her. ::)
It has helped for me to try to learn to not take negative things people say or do personally.
For me it has been mostly cry and allow myself to feel again. I am working on not crying as easily. I just find crying helps with the stress.
I SLEEP.( again helps me escape stress) ..drink WATER (lots of it) vitamins B12, Vita D, Magnesium.
And laugh whenever I can- again a great stress reliever.
And to try to help me get passed the grief over my children I have started going to a hypnotist.
Working helps so I don't have the time to dwell on things.
I need to add exercise to the list. ::) And cut back on or quit smoking.
The flashbacks have been gone for a while now. The triggers somedays are worse if I'm tired.
Surround myself with supportive friends and relatives I do have.
NC might give each the time to work through some of the more painful issues that need to be addressed in themselves. Whether a reconciliation presents itself or not. (reconciliation not happening in my case)
As far as opposite sex relationships:
I have quite a bit more outer and inner peace..no RL drama. I do not date or have any "situationships". I'm not interested in complicating my life currently. I have been hurt enough and I do not wish to hurt anybody else.
I try to breathe more deeply not panic as some days I stress out and can get overwhelmed easily.
I do not believe everything or anything people post has to be positive. Counting blessings is a positive thing and being grateful for what we have and all the good there is really does need to take the front seat. Not easy sometimes.
We all need a place to vent to remove some of the negative. That also helps as it can help others and maybe not feel so alone with the challenges dealing with this creates. Anger isn't necessarily negative. It might even reveal what myself or someone else might need some help with. Like for me it's patience... ::) >:(
And that's not because I was some spoiled brat and things went my way or happened in some timely fashion. It's because I have always been pretty patient and it's gotten out of balance with me not putting me first.
In that relationship:
Because my needs were either unmet and feelings dismissed. I stopped expressing them BECAUSE that was the surest way for me not to get the need met or feel heard or listened too.
I would just keep my mouth shut wait and see if anybody really gave a $h!te. Guess what? They didn't.
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For me I keep saying that I refuse to be bitter because then MLC has definitely won. MLC can take my marriage and it can take my H and it can even take my identity of being married to my high school sweetheart but I will not allow it to take the essence of who I am!
Really Trying: I love this statement and it is really true for me as well. MLC has been hard in so many ways, but the worst part has been not being able to be with the only man I have ever known. Looking at him and knowing the real him is being held prisoner in those cold dead eyes, is heartbreaking. I am like many on this Forum. I don't know where I fall. Am I standing? Not really, but I am not necessarily dating either. I just take it day by day. I pray that I can help the newbies and maybe help those who are struggling and I think that is what we all need at certain points in this process.
Hugs to you and thank you for sharing your words.
FY
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Just thought I'd comment, not sure how coherent I'm feeling but I'll give it a go.
Just to declare my perspective, I have been on this forum since its inception, I'm also still standing. I'm not legally divorced, my MLCer is a boomerang who has had multiple OWs and many changes in his life during this mess. Currently we're not really in touch, but we went through a long period of reconnection (not reconciliation) last year. I'm still learning a lot.
1 -- of course this should be an inclusive forum, I do also feel (it may not be true, it's just a feeling) that the forum appeared to be more geared towards supporting standing in the early days, but I also agree with what RCR wrote on her blog about the community growing and changing. People often comment that we don't see many reconciliations, my own view is that the first place I wouldn't be if we were reconciling would be here, and I think that forms part of it. I think many (possibly me as well) thought that this would be "the answer", and then get disillusioned when things don't happen the way we wanted, so think that "standing doesn't work". I take RCR's point that standing is risky, both emotionally and possibly financially. But this remains, as far as I can see, the only place that does support standing, so many other places are harsher.
I do think that our own views absolutely influence how we write to others; what I might say to someone would be I'm sure quite different than the advice given by someone who was "done".
As to general negativity; we do of course come here to vent, but I also remember RCR saying that venting needs to release anger, not fuel it by calling our MLCer names, etc.
2. -- regarding NC, I do think that communication overall is needed in order for a reconciliation to take place, but NC does have significant benefits -- IF APPROPRIATE. Perhaps that can be used as a boundary to the clingiest clingers, but otherwise it is for the protection of the LBS -- to gain some space, to gain perspective, and, crucially, to avoid what another wise LBS friend of mine called "shrapnel" -- the flinging about of nasty things in either direction. Too much shrapnel can be damaging; a period, even a very short one, of NC can keep both us and them from saying or doing things that we really would regret.
In my case right now I am not contacting my H; the last time we spoke he flung huge amounts of shrapnel in my direction, right now I'd rather not give him the opportunity do do more. It also means I'm not contacting him about small things as I might have done when we were connecting more, but of course if a child were to end up in hospital I'd be on the phone right away. I will take a view on this as time progresses.
I remember from the articles RCR saying that if something is bad for us (the LBS) personally, it is likely harmful to our stand, so if being bombarded by shrapnel harms us, it harms our stand.
NC is not meant as punishment, as I understand it.
3 -- I can't comment on the "divorced, bitter moderators", I don't know those.
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I agree NC isn't a punishment.
For me I look at it as a protective measure to allows me to self reflect and get a handle on my emotions and get some perspective. Read and educate myself. Regain confidence, self worth, and some control over my own life..
Again everybodies different and not everyone might deal with monster the way others do.
Or even the back and forth thing (clinging boomerang) if you get on that ride or you may wait for them to make some kind of decision. If it's confusing and hurting you? You get to decide when you have had enough. You may not be giving up. You just simply will know when enough is enough.
You get to make decisions too! Whatever works for you.
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I would like to address something hawk said.
YES, I do think it is the ring....AND the "T" sign (taken) on your forehead that attracts a lot of women.
You're safe. You are committed, which is attractive. You're not a player.
My H thought the same thing. Why all these opportunities when I was married? Where are they now?
I told him...you took your ring off. You think by taking it off it opens avenues for you but it's just the opposite. You should have left it on. ;D
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Actually, I don't think it's the ring or the "T" on your forehead, I think it's attitude! I think when our head is simply not in the game, then we actually send out a "keep away" aura! A happily married person is fun, cheerful, inviting.... heck, a HAPPY person is fun, cheerful, inviting. The truth is, Hawk, you are sending out, " I am a very UNHAPPY, MISERABLE MAN, at the moment, don't know when I will be my normal, happy, easy, go lucky self again. I will keep you posted, in fact, you will probably be able to see it a mile away".
Honestly, we control our own destiny far more then we realize. When we are happy, content within ourselves, it shows. People gravitate towards people like that. So if people used to gravitate to you before when you were married, the it was probably because they just thought you would be a HOOT to hang out with. They probably were right too. You were.
Hawk, LET YOUR WIFE GO... take back your life. I would say there is a far greater chance of your wife finding you again, if you were to work hard on yourself and become the self assured, happy man she married,if you were to somehow find your way back to the person you once were, I expect she would be far more receptive to you. In fact, she might have to wait in line for you to notice her standing there.
You can never be that MAN again, the one you were while married but you can become that man plus a much better, much improved man. A man that has learned some hard lessons and knows that life is all about making the most of it, enjoying every day. Appreciating what you have and showing it. Working hard to provide a good living for yourself and your family... just plain CONTROLLING your life, rather then letting circumstances just take you to wherever it seems to lead.
Come on Hawk. Where is the old Hawk? Where is the new Hawk? How about combining them and becoming the best person you can be. Instead of moping around in victim mode.
I know people hate that Victim Triangle thing. I hear the groans now... "oh $hit, here she goes again!" but seriously, most of us are just nothing but a poor, poor us. Our spouses have run off with somebody else. It's NOT our fault, so we'll just sit here and wait and whenever our MLCer see's us, they will see how strong and wonderful we have become or always were for that matter. In time they will run back to us, because it IS SO OBVIOUS that we are the best person for them.
I really wish I could say that was true, but I do believe one thing for sure. If we truly do the mirror work. If we truly work on ourselves and find the person we always wanted to be. The person we are proudest of. The best parent, friend, relative, child whatever we can be, then GOOD THINGS are going to happen. Whether your MLCer returns or not.
You are the controller of your own fate! Start believing it, start believing in YOURSELF.
Hugs Stayed
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To build on what Stayed said, we attract where we are in our lives. When we are broken, we attract broken. Our MLCers are the poster children of this.
I agree with Stayed that once we do the mirror work and look deeply and ourselves, understand why we are the way we are, and change those things we don't like, heal from past hurts, etc., then we will attract what we want.
Yes, we just take the time to heal from the devastation of our marriages imploding. But I think the more we GAL and do the mirror work (I believe they must be done in conjunction) the more confidence we will gain, the happier we will feel about and within ourselves and, thus, we will attract that which we want.
It truly is about attitude. Positivity breeds positivity.
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I also agree it's about attitude!!!!!
I can't tell you how many times people have come up to me and mentioned how well I'm doing. Yes, I have my days and whoa is me but for the most part me coming to The Hero's Spouse paved the way for me to not become that bitter person and take my faith and us it. Allow God to be God and move forward standing but growing. I am now divorced, I prayed and prayed that wouldn't happen and I'm the one who pushed that button to protect myself and that is the only reason and maybe slow it down hoping he would change in the process but I'm still divorced. What I can do with that will hold me back, keep me bitter or move me to a new life of joy despite what I am going through. I from day one of being here wanted to do this right. Of course I didn't do it all right but I learned early on that there was really nothing I could do so I didn't argue, I responded to EX H like a child and set my boundaries and kept out of the daily crazy emails he would send me. I paved my path to look at this as his journey that touched my life but I have no way of making better for him or me unless I just move forward and respect the man that he was throughout the last 30 years. I refused to throw back what he threw to me and work at coming out of this healthy. I'm still working on it but for the most part I can't say my life is bad. I loved him, I'd like him to get help or to get through this I miss who he was but my life although different is less chaotic and happy. Everyday God reminds me of the goodness from yesterday so I can see him in my life and continue my walk to joy. I totally believe it's about the attitude. You hang on to the past and not heal you will stay just where you are.
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Medusa-To build on what Stayed said, we attract where we are in our lives. When we are broken, we attract broken. Our MLCers are the poster children of this.
But most married men are not broken. I'm talking about women being attracted to happily married men.
From everything I've read some women are attracted to married men for various reasons and none of them have to do with their attitude.
They see these men as safe, their not on the prowl. Probably haven't been with tons of women. They feel safe flirting with a married man, single men would take it much more serious.
Their taken. If some other woman found him worth it, he must be worth it. He's already a family man, he's proven that.
Forbidden fruit. We want what someone else has. It's a challenge.
These men are not afraid of commitment. Scores big with a lot of women.
There was more but these were the main reason I read.
Funny, it was just the opposite for men. They were less likely to be attracted to married women.
I think it goes back to men being more loyal to other men. Sadly, women aren't as loyal to each other when it comes to relationships.
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And how is it that this discussion thread has now become an opportunity to lambaste an LBS?
What defines an unhappy person? Mentioning that they miss their spouse? Seriously?? On a forum that's ostensibly about people who want to restore their relationships?
Hawk has a great sardonic sense of humour. He's droll. He's living his life. He pops in and lightens all kinds of threads. And doesn't warrant attack for it.
Sorry, Stayed, but for someone who was so hot and bothered about LBSs not critiquing LBSs, you're the one who's dived in to criticize someone.
So yes, there you go again.
We all have mirror work to do.
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I'm sorry. I was just replying to what hawk said.
I found it amusing because my H, in the beginning, said the same thing. It was kind of meant as funny, though true.
::)
Hope no women were offended. :) I truly did not expect a serious conversation to develop.
Ok, enough about married men and rings. :o
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guys and dolls, nice to see the veterans discussing veteran things. :)
Hope you don't mind me as a newbie following. It's inspiring to read stories from people who have come so far, and have taken all these different directions. You all sound very wise and you set an example to me to become the woman that I know I still am and also want to be.
Thanks people
Anchor
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There is clearly a schism on the forum. I only follow a few threads and check in when an occasional veteran posts, but even I can see it. I was going to refrain from commenting, but it does seem to be time to address the changes in a coherent way. In 2010, it was all about standing, being an obstacle to divorce and remaining "married" and true to your spouse, at all costs--even costs to yourself and your children. People left when they stopped standing. And there is no way I would agree there were more R’s in the early days. I have seen very few healthy R’s here, on my other forum, or IRL. (And didn’t someone tell me HB ultimately left her H?)
As the site matured, more and more standers stepped down, and businesses need to grow or die. RCR allowed it to accommodate non-standers. Now may be a time to consider a small compartmentalization, as a growth strategy. As one of the original pot stirrers, I always thought there should be a place (or some color indicator) for true standers who want to hear nothing about anything else, and other codes to let people know they are open to discussing divorce, or other ideas.
Fact--true standers and non-standers have very different views of the world and MLC. There are very few people who truly are standing in a perfectly healthy manner. For everyone else, standing calls for a whole heap of denial, or cognitive dissonance at the least. True standing means you have to blameshift all the horrible things your spouse has done onto the dis-ease of MLC, watch them treat the OP like gold, throw their kids under the bus, and all the other BS and keep shining that light. Taking back a half-baked MLCer who is not ready to accept blame for all the hurt and devastation they have caused is pretty much a requirement for R—that takes a certain kind of person, and SOME of those people ARE weak. They stand because they are too lazy, afraid, negative, insecure, or a whole host of other things, to look for anything else. I am NOT saying ALL, but they exist and some are here.
Once you stand down, you see everything in a new way. When the anger takes over and you face the true pain of betrayal and begin to heal--you can never go back. It's like losing your virginity. Once you have sex and realize you did not give up your entire being and self respect, get pregnant or die of an STD, you can’t go back to preach about the big evil that is lust. When you no longer have to look at your spouse as the golden ring, you can see that your MLCer was weak and did heinous things to you and your kids, friends, etc. And you can see that maybe you were not all that healthy and let it happen, and as you start to get healthy and see the same signs in the deniers all around you, you feel like it might be helpful to point it out. And let me just say that there are also weak, lazy, angry people with low self-esteem and other issues here, too, and for a time, I was probably all of those (except lazy, I have never been lazy), neither side wins in that regard.
But standers fear moving on more than non-standers fear standing. And non-standers forget that they are talking to people who do not want to face that they or their spouse might be coD, narcs, subclinical PD, depressed, etc. What others perceive as “bitter” is really just war-weary wisdom. Seeing another shattered woman refusing to stand up for herself is hard. Teaching is a gift and most people do not have it, and too many people with 2X4s instead of kid gloves are truly trying to be helpful, but this is hard for the newbies to take and threatening to the insecure standers who are afraid they will lose a new member of their team.
The bottom line is NO ONE knows what makes an R and there are a LOT of marriages on here where R is truly NOT the best option. I am one of them. I despise divorce and would never have chosen this path. I would have been a martyr for my H. The fact that he was weak and chose to have an affair as a way out of what was truly a crappy M was, ultimately, a favor to me. NC, lowC, paving the way, no one KNOWS what is best for anyone, but veterans do know that sandpaper on raw burns is generally not the best path.
To stand, or not to stand is an individual choice and each of us have to choose our own crooked, horrible path through the mess. None of us know what that path looks like for anyone else or what equipment they are taking on that journey. To repeatedly criticize or encourage a woman to stand for a man in a situation we REALLY DO NOT KNOW may be just as irresponsible as telling her to run as fast as she can. Mean people suck and should be silenced, but people who offer alternative views are all offering the same thing—care in a public forum. People have to know that any responder could be a PhD psychologist or a crack who thinks God talks to them (sorry but I never bought that stuff from HB.). I could be a card-carrying delusional BPD who believes she channels Elvira, and all my posts could be lies—there is really no way to know, but some people have told me I have helped them. So be it, broken clocks are right twice a day. And every M that is presented on here should be suspect. Perfect Ms do NOT succumb to MLCs, true statement--something had to be amiss, and not everyone tells you their whole truth--because NONE of us KNOW our WHOLE TRUTH.
Bottom line, it’s RCR’s forum, take it, or leave it, literally. If you want your own forum where they rules are different, start one, but dwelling on something you cannot control, whether it is this forum's rules or someone else's stand is indicative of "issues!" So everyone should stop cat-fighting and be nice. Love and light, ll
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Lisa,
I respectfully disagree with just about everything you have said.
No need to even attempt to point out how condescending you are towards standers...suffice it to say, I have no idea why you continue to be on this site if the philosophy is not one that you subscribe to.
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See this is the good typical example of internet bs where something you say gets misinterpreted into oblivion and blown to smithereens. It's one reason l don't bother with the internet too much.
People comment all the time in RL on what an incredible job ex and l are doing and ate often amazed but eh , l don't need them to comment or tell me that , or to hear it, l already know that.
Stuff l was saying there is nothing to do with me or what l put out, l come here to talk bs that's what this place is for but out in the RW , there's no need , not for me anyway , zero.
What l was talking about doesn't come from me , it's just one of those ironic twists in life that l end up in this position yet in an area like this , it's as simple as that.
Doesn't matter what you put out round here there's just nothing going on now it's as simple as that.
Where as before , we had friends staying from interstate , we had friends in that area all around, we had life going on all over there was sh@t on offer everywhere and ,lots of partying , lots of getting into trouble haha but they've all moved , we've all moved and ironically , no one's around anf obviously with our split , everything's different.
Very very simple maths, Murphy's law stuff. Nuff said .
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I just want to say just in case I'm being blamed for something in all this shooting but... I am a stander even divorced I am standing. I'm just saying that I'm moving on with my life as I'm standing as I believe is told to do. I'm giving my now EX H his room to hopefully grow. I am in no way moving on as in moving to dating, being in a relationship, thinking about being in a relationship, etc. My whole being is still attached to EX H even if I am divorced. Plus, I am still connected because we have a business together that is now just his but I still work in it so for EX H his true passage through MLC isn't probably going to finish till after I am done doing my job for him after the first of this year. But, whether someone is standing or not isn't really my concern or for me to place judgement on. I just wanted you all to know I wasn't posting for or against just sharing my story of joy and agreeing that it is an attitude. The mind plays an important part in all this in for LBS's as I am.
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Lisa-Now may be a time to consider a small compartmentalization, as a growth strategy. As one of the original pot stirrers, I always thought there should be a place (or some color indicator) for true standers who want to hear nothing about anything else, and other codes to let people know they are open to discussing divorce, or other ideas.
But then where does that leave people like me? I am neither a stander or a non-stander.
I am basically still here to help who ever needs help or advice. Plus I made some pretty good friends.
My H and I are divorced. I'm not standing because I don't want to remarry him. But I still have love for him so we are pretty much creating what I see as a new relationship. Hoping anyway.
Where do I fall, in what category, what color would I fit in?
It breaks my heart to see newbies come on this site in total confusion. I was one of them and the kindness of everyone here helped me through it. It feels good to give back.
I will talk to anyone about standing (I was), or divorce (went through it), finances, (also been through it) or anything else they need to talk about. I am never negative and try to show respect for everyone. If I really disagree with them, I bow out and let others help them.
I think it would be a disservice not to point out the fact that they may need to get financial support, even if their standing. This whole thing is complicated. It not just black and white.
I may be wiser from all this but I really don't think like a stander or a non-stander. I guess I'm a little of both.
I hope I'm reading you right.
I do agree with your last sentence. :)
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I think I should probably come in and answer the rephrased questions I’d posed in this discussion as well, since part of the reason for rephrasing them as I did was so they weren’t so binary. There is a lot of room on the continuum between standing/not standing. And I confess to really hating the kinds of ‘yes’ / ‘no’ close-ended questions that promote polarity on the board.
But to write a decent answer is going to take some time.
In the meantime, my earlier comment was directed at this:
The truth is, Hawk, you are sending out, " I am a very UNHAPPY, MISERABLE MAN, at the moment, don't know when I will be my normal, happy, easy, go lucky self again. I will keep you posted, in fact, you will probably be able to see it a mile away".
Honestly, we control our own destiny far more then we realize. When we are happy, content within ourselves, it shows. People gravitate towards people like that. So if people used to gravitate to you before when you were married, the it was probably because they just thought you would be a HOOT to hang out with. They probably were right too. You were.
Hawk, LET YOUR WIFE GO... take back your life. I would say there is a far greater chance of your wife finding you again, if you were to work hard on yourself and become the self assured, happy man she married,if you were to somehow find your way back to the person you once were, I expect she would be far more receptive to you. In fact, she might have to wait in line for you to notice her standing there.
You can never be that MAN again, the one you were while married but you can become that man plus a much better, much improved man. A man that has learned some hard lessons and knows that life is all about making the most of it, enjoying every day. Appreciating what you have and showing it. Working hard to provide a good living for yourself and your family... just plain CONTROLLING your life, rather then letting circumstances just take you to wherever it seems to lead.
Come on Hawk. Where is the old Hawk? Where is the new Hawk? How about combining them and becoming the best person you can be. Instead of moping around in victim mode.
I don't see Hawk as a victim. Or unhappy. Or any of the other labels that get attached to LBSs who sometimes express that they miss their spouses or life with their spouses.
UL, Thunder, Medusa, Stayed, I agree completely about the attractive force of a positive attitude.
And UL, please don't feel any kind of blame.
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We spend a lot of time analyzing what this internet forum is or is not. It's, as I see it, the collective sum of all of us at any given time. Of course it changes as more people come in and others leave. I hope we all don't have to color code ourselves, as I think the diversity and freedom to grow is part of what makes it unique.
I don't define myself either way any more either as I am divorced, but leave the future open to what may come with or without my spouse. I do still feel a connection to caring about him more than I do any other Average Joe.
I found the conversation on Thundarr's thread about denial interesting, and there were some points of agreement with you for me, Lisa. But I'm not really resonating with this message here. Not invalidating this as how you feel, but I just think for those of us who are or were committed to standing in a more awakened and serious way, there is more behind it than the perception that it's denial based.
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I don't think we need more colour codes. Or to be labelling people with colours and/or icons.
People, and situations, are fluid. It is also much more interesting to allow people to just be, without the need to label/colour everything.
And from a visual point of view, at least for me, it would become too confusing. And it would up the tech side, because one would have to be verifying if the labels/colour codes matched the person and its situation.
Things are fine the way they are. As far as I'm concerned, the simpler, the better.
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I agree Anj,
If it's not broken, don't fix it. :)
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Not posting to argue or debate......Hearts Blessing did NOT leave her husband! They are happily restored and thriving after ten years of crisis.
She openly shares their journey in her site.
She also returned to Divorce Busters to update they are fully restored. This information can be found in the reconciliation thread.
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If you're reading this, you might want to get a coffee first. Didn't do so well on "short"...
In regards to the discussion, I think HS is an inclusive forum, and is the richer for it. At least, I find the diversity of views and experience enriching.
And I do think that where one self-identifies on the continuum of standing and not-standing or uncertain or shifting or anywhere in between does frame participation in the board.
This says it well:
Fact--true standers and non-standers have very different views of the world and MLC.
So what are some of the ways that the views are different? Well, all standers are not all alike, those who have dropped their stand are not all alike, and those inbetween are not alike. So how to frame some of the differences as differing but valuable world views – that we can all appreciate, learn from, and respect -- rather than labels?
In my experience as a stander, (and this is me, not all standers, but I suspect there is some shared experience) I have worked hard to get to the point where I plan my life as if H is never coming back, but I live my life like he is.
Before anyone tells me to let him go, and how I need to live like he isn’t coming back, let me explain what I mean.
Some facts, for those who do not know. BD was almost 2 years ago; H left soon after. We do not have a legal separation agreement, still have some joint back accounts, have sold our house, own another property together, and shared assets like vehicles. We went through mediation, but never finalized an agreement. There is no legal action at this time. There is some contact every few weeks, none of it emotionally connecting, and for the most part I now leave contact to him except for what is necessary on administrative things. None of this is what I wanted, so I am in the position of responding as best I can to take care of me as a result of a unilateral choice he has made. I believe there are multiple EAs,; no PA that I know of.
Planning my life like he isn’t coming back means I have zero expectation my life will involve H. I have shifted things like insurance so there is less life insurance, and more disability or critical illness (we don’t have children, so the insurance I have needs to take care of me). I have had to reconfigure my retirement expectations. I plan vacations, hobbies, family gatherings, time with friends work, retirement, everything from the standpoint of what do I need to do. So, basically, from the question of ‘what does my life going forward look like now?’.
I leave the shared stuff alone, including the joint account with the proceeds from the house sale because I choose not to trigger legal action. It’s not because I’m in denial. It’s because he’s been good with the money, I’ve been good with the money and leaving it alone as it signals a huge amount of trust on both our parts. Risky? Sure. Trusting? Sure. And right now the markets are doing poorly, so at least we’re not losing anything. ::)
From the ‘living like he is coming back’ standpoint, it’s simple.
I don’t date.
I don’t look for other men. A, because I’m not ready, B, because I’m married.
I won’t initiate a legal process. A. because right now, I don’t want to B. I don’t have to.
And that’s it. For me, it’s that simple
Am I afraid?
Heck no, I’m not afraid and quite frankly, I resent the implication.
And I really disagree with this world view:
But standers fear moving on more than non-standers fear standing. And non-standers forget that they are talking to people who do not want to face that they or their spouse might be coD, narcs, subclinical PD, depressed, etc.
How can anyone even know who fears what more?
Have I been angry? Darn right. I got over that pretty quickly.
Does my H have issues? Sure
Do I have mirror work to do? Sure
You can talk divorce to me all you want to. I’m not afraid of it. I know the legal aspects in my jurisdiction very, very well. Frankly, divorce would make my life a lot easier.
But, as I’ve said before, that’s not why I come here. I come here because I don't want a divorce.
I came here because it’s a place where people “get it”, where despite all of the painful things an MLC spouse does, there is some understanding that an LBS can still love and forgive them. I come here because it’s ostensibly a place where I won’t be shamed or labeled as these things:
For everyone else, standing calls for a whole heap of denial, or cognitive dissonance at the least. True standing means you have to blameshift all the horrible things your spouse has done onto the dis-ease of MLC, watch them treat the OP like gold, throw their kids under the bus, and all the other BS and keep shining that light. Taking back a half-baked MLCer who is not ready to accept blame for all the hurt and devastation they have caused is pretty much a requirement for R—that takes a certain kind of person, and SOME of those people ARE weak. They stand because they are too lazy, afraid, negative, insecure, or a whole host of other things, to look for anything else. I am NOT saying ALL, but they exist and some are here.
I think I’m pretty healthy. I've dug down and done the work. For two years, I’ve been quietly going about doing what I need to be doing without demonizing my H, and without harming myself. Right now, I’m working hard at recalling happy memories. Because as hard as it’s been so far, I have reason to believe it’s going to get harder. And that’s OK. Because I am not afraid.
Now, as for my perceptions of non-standers. (And this is only my perception, and it’s a perception because its not my experience.).
I think non-standers go through a door that those standing haven't, won't, or don't. And that changes one's thinking. How could it not? It shifts the shared field of experience to a different place. Not better, not worse, not bitter, just different.
It's visible when people say things like "if I had it to do over again, I would do this". Except the "this" is based on what is known now. It's impossible, really, to know. Memory is one thing, a crystal ball is another. So non-standers look at MLC from what 'has' happened, standers are still looking at what 'could' happen.
Yes, I do think when people drop their stand, they
Once you stand down, you see everything in a new way. When the anger takes over and you face the true pain of betrayal and begin to heal--you can never go back.
But I vehemently disagree that only the non-standers feel anger and begin to heal. That’s a shared experience.
So my perception is that non-standers close a door, and confirm that the choice to close it is correct.
Just as standers leave a door open, and choose to confirm that it is correct.
And it is in that need to confirm the “side” of the outcome that I sometimes think the collective “we” run into trouble.
Finally, there are those elsewhere and everywhere in between on the continuum who don’t feel the need to be labeled one way or the other and for them I am truly grateful because they help me believe that no matter what happens, it is going to be OK.
And I sure don’t think colour-coding or more labels is the answer to anything.
If the board is in need of anything, it is in what we share, not how we differ.
No matter what the experience, or where we are in our journeys, there is pain in every keyboard.
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Imo,
I also think we spend too much time analyzing the site, analyzing each other , analyzing our spouses and analyzing our indivdual journeys.
I believe there is guidance in the articles and experience from those that have lived it .
But I think we need to get busy living . Just "BE" and heal. Healing is the very most important part of this journey . There is no handbook for grieving and healing.
Unless we are hurting someone or causing pain or destruction I do not think we should be called out on our behavior.
From experience , I can tell you kindness and gentleness are very important . Harsh words and judgement will cause a person to shut down and turn away.
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l wouldn't say l'm a stander anymore either and l believe any standing for my ex from here would be a total waste of life for me bcl'll bet you anything you like she ain't gonna come knocking , even with the weird things she does do , they don't mean much to me.
l could say yeah , anything can happen and the door might be slightly open but l've been looking out for me a long long time now and should the right person come along , l'm good to go, l know that but l'm not too worried either way either before anyone goes jumping all over that one.
BUT eh, that doesn't mean all is 100% clear on ex, of course it's not. 20 yrs, we had a huge huge life not many here could imagine and we have our daughter to look after .
l'm proud of everything l've done in this , of where l'm at, of how l've handled ex and most of all my d .
But yeah , there's still stuff , so what , of course there is. ANYONE , saying there isn't still stuff only 3yrs out of a 20yr thing , is either bs'ing you or they never even ;loved them in the first place after all.
ps , thunder can l ask why you wouldn't remarry him ?
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ps , and thanks to Onward btw, that was nice to hear but eh , not a drama , really. Just another typical jump in on a one post thing without the rest of the picture .
Stayed you really gotta do some reading if your gonna go on a run about somebody , get the whole story first you know.
Sadly l see more and more lately, why people talk so much about not actually being able to talk where they should be able to, without being raced off into God knows what.
Well, that's enough bs for me :D
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hawk, you are so right.
I don't see you are being down or depressing to be around. I find you quite delightful. :)
My main reasons for not wanting to remarry my X is personal. It has nothing to do with him, It's more me.
I've been married before, had my children. I just don't see the point in it anymore. I didn't when I married my H, but is was important to him.
I feel at this time in my life I don't need marriage to make me happy. I can be happy in a relationship without the rings.
I'm not saying I don't want a "committed" relationship. I do...but the vows are just not necessary.
I want someone to be with me because they want to, not because they promised to.
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Lisa - I honestly don't think standing vs non-standing is what determines weak, lazy, insecure, or whatever. I have met those people in all categories just as I have met those who are strong, healthy whatever. I think painting with a broad brush is never productive.
I do find your post is quite condescending towards those of us who choose to stand. I can't imagine why my interest in saving my marriage would mean I am in denial. I am perfectly clear about the situation I find myself in. I'm also perfectly clear on who my h was and is now. I don't sugar coat any of what I've endured. I've also grown in leaps & bounds over the past few years. None of that changes my desire to reconcile my marriage.
Hawk - I have never experienced you as negative! I too am proud of how both you and your w have patented your d. Keep laughing and the right lady (you know I'm still hoping its w) will show up.
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I feel at this time in my life I don't need marriage to make me happy. I can be happy in a relationship without the rings.
I'm not saying I don't want a "committed" relationship. I do...but the vows are just not necessary.
I want someone to be with me because they want to, not because they promised to.
Really love this, Thunder. I don't see marriage ever again in my future either, even with Hoss if he were to heal. Divorce is expensive! :o ;D Hoss was more amped to marry than I was, too. Neither of us wanted kids (though he's probably changed his tune on that now that he's going to be a 'step grandpa') but after ten years together, I think he wanted a change and this was the quickest way to accomplish it. Lots of outside pressure to finally take the plunge, and I guess it made sense because I thought we'd be together forever (didn't we all?). But I don't feel pulled to find a permanent partner at all. If it happens, that's nice, but I'd rather just have relationships on my own terms.
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Haha thanks Thunder and RT but l don't know negative or depressing or whatever it was , didn't see it tbh sorry. But eh , l'm dyslexic and l can't just read and read and read, it has to involve sex or money or something good before l can get through something too long, that way l can focus, yaknow ;D
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I would like to agree with Onward -- standing doesn't mean that we don't feel angry or betrayed, it doesn't mean blame-shifting, it doesn't mean we're afraid. It means we've felt all that and worked through it all.
I'm sad that implication that non or even anti-standers have is that standers are weak, I don't think that's the case at all.
I don't choose to divorce (given the choice), I don't choose to have another man, that doesn't make me weak or afraid. (in my case divorce doesn't help me at all, I recognise it may be different for others) I do look at my H and his actions with open eyes, I don't actively put myself in the way of what I called "shrapnel", I work hard to protect myself and my children.
I deal with what is. I can't change my H's responses, but I can change what he responds to, and that does work.
I disagree with the thought or implication that standers don't stand up for themselves. Standing doesn't mean being a doormat, that is one of the first lessons taught here. As a matter of fact, we find ourselves standing up for our own beliefs perhaps more so than those who choose another way.
I want to respect everyone's well-considered choices, this has always been a safe place for everyone to get their own head in order.
And I also agree with RCRs statement that they may well be fewer divorces if more people took a stand.
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Hello
I'm a long term stander, I don't read all the threads so I don't understand what is going on, but I would like to comment.
Standing is a personal choice and implies that I'm not entitled to blame anyone for choosing to stand. Even when it turns out that standing was not the right option. So it is my responsability.
And there is no one who can make me feel different.
I come to this site to find support, because standing is hard, but I think it is also hard not to stand.
We all suffer from pain, grieve, anger, guilt, love ... you name it, we've all encountered all these feelings in some point.
I still experience all these feelings every day because I'm still in love with this man, I want to nurrish my memories, I want to be angry, ... it makes me who I am.
So my belief is that if anyone here on this board is bitter, angry, depressive... it is who this person is and how he feels at that particular moment and we have to respect everyone's choices and feelings.
If we had the chance to feel otherwise, would you stay in this $h!te of MLC?
I hope I made myself clear, because English is not my mother tongue.
Love.
Poussin
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Hello
I'm a long term stander, I don't read all the threads so I don't understand what is going on, but I would like to comment.
Standing is a personal choice and implies that I'm not entitled to blame anyone for choosing to stand. Even when it turns out that standing was not the right option. So it is my responsability.
And there is no one who can make me feel different.
I come to this site to find support, because standing is hard, but I think it is also hard not to stand.
We all suffer from pain, grieve, anger, guilt, love ... you name it, we've all encountered all these feelings in some point.
I still experience all these feelings every day because I'm still in love with this man, I want to nurrish my memories, I want to be angry, ... it makes me who I am.
So my belief is that if anyone here on this board is bitter, angry, depressive... it is who this person is and how he feels at that particular moment and we have to respect everyone's choices and feelings.
If we had the chance to feel otherwise, would you stay in this $h!te of MLC?
I hope I made myself clear, because English is not my mother tongue.
Love.
Poussin
Poussin,
You made yourself very clear. :)
Great post. I agree.
Standing is a choice. Not Standing is a choice. Being in the middle somewhere is also a choice.
I just want to be aware that the choices I make are my responsibility. With that comes empowerment....
If you are strong in your choices and convictions - it doesn't matter what anyone else posts....or chooses to do with his/her own life situation.
Great post, Poussin!
L
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This thought came to me in a moment of reflection -- it's interesting that those who choose to stand can feel the need to defend their choice on a forum that's meant for standers....
I agree with poussin -- standing isn't easy, this is where we come for support. And not standing isn't easy either.
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I'm a stander who's now reconciling; my H was a clinger whose MLC largely took the form of episodic rages and disappearances to climb mountains (and have EA's, and try to accidentally off himself), then returns to lurk moodily in the spare room. So I don't have the experience that so many do here, of a vanisher or of divorce sought or unsought.
But I can say unconditionally that the most powerful thing I've done in my life is to stand. I'm a risk taker, I try new things, before and after BD I learned to rock climb and skydive and mountain bike and dance aerial suspended 20 feet in the air... but the moment I most felt like I was flying without a parachute was when I learned to negotiate my peace with my raging H. To work on my agape, without expectation of any return. Once I figured it out (and it wasn't easy! thanks and hugs to the mods on this board who helped me, without ever making me feel stupid for failing), it was like I couldn't ever be hurt again, no matter what crazy H did. Zen master trick - and actually, isn't there a martial art in which you move only in defense? Aikido, I think? You land no blows, but use your opponent's weight and momentum against them, so any move they make will see them lying on the ground seeing stars.
Standing (and NC, to the extent that one can with a clinger) provided a shield for my emotions, and space for my wee fledgling self to grow unbruised and unbittered. Even if I'd in the end decided not to take back my H, think I might still identify as a Stander, because that's what gave me back my power. I wouldn't call it weakness. I wouldn't call it being a doormat. Standing is both a tactic, and a life skill. You may not need/use the tactic forever, but you do grow with the life skill. At least that's my own experience.
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Thank you @poussin en @osb. Great posts
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Zen master trick - and actually, isn't there a martial art in which you move only in defense? Aikido, I think? You land no blows, but use your opponent's weight and momentum against them, so any move they make will see them lying on the ground seeing stars.
This beautifully sums up the art of handling a MLC clinger. Thank you osb.
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My heart sinks when I see that osb has posted because it means I'm going to have to think & that will interfere with my couch potato time... ;D Hmmm Aikido?
PS. I downloaded Blake, Songs of innocence etc. onto my iphone within about 60 seconds of reading that particular post. :)
Thanks osb.
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Calamity ...your dry wit always brings a slight smile to my face!
For me its kind of simple. No one likes being judged.
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Cross roads of sorts for me. lately l've given up on what's left of my marriage, divorced marriage actually.
But reading things, seeing things, l don't know if giving up is doing the right thing.
What makes you think he or she is gonna wanna R one day , when what you see and what your getting is the opposite ?
The clingers and boomerangs , yeah l can see in peoples stories yeah sure , those types are stuck and they're caught between going or staying , thay just aren't quite sure wtf they're doing.
But what if yours isn't , what if they've been off doing their new thing since day one , they've divorced you , and they're still off doing their new thing ?
What in hell would make us think that might change, why would we even think it might change ?
l see and hear of couples in RL getting back or remarrying , one couple got back 5 times. He's with someone else now , dunno what she's doing but the original split was her racing off with his best friend. He said they won't be ever getting back now.
My mum and dad found their way back together after 15yrs , but they never ever lived apart and no one moved out. Just sep' bed rooms.
l see things about especially here and l've asked it too myself. lf there is nc and GAL stuff, or of there is no talk or mention of the us , or the standing, or of the way you still feel , or of them knowing you are still there, then they will give up and go on with their new life even if they did have doubt times.
What's got me thinking about all this is l feel l am at crossroads. Because even though from about 12 mths out , l pretty well have done my thing and mentally lived as is we will never R , and then the divorce came along and l thought well , that is def' that then.
But l still see things in w sometimes.
One for example like just the other day l was telling d something and mentioned what someone else had said , a female. W was there and she looked down and pretended not to hear the female part .
l thought that was really strange .
lt could've just been oops , this is where l opt out , other females, none of my business now , but it seemed like more than that, it seemed wifey like.
l thought it was a really strange reaction from here considering she wanted all this.
Just one of many weird things l get that just don't seem to fit the detached going on with their life divorced you adios ex w .
lf you knew my full story before bd , it was mainly about rejection on w's part you see and thinking l didn't love her anymore.
And things like that , all go back to the earlier stuff l mentioned above or B pit it better in his thread - with all the " maybe's " .
Well that's the exact sort of thing l am scratching at here and wondering where others are at and why they still think there is something and stand. Why should we still stand, what have l got to go on , she divorced me and yours probably divorced you and raced of with someone else .
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I smell wood burning. Someone is doing some heavy thinking. :)
I think I understand what you are saying hawk, but every situation is so different. Every one has their reasons for decisions.
We can only make decisions by what we have. Do we see any changes? I would say that is what gives some people hope enough to stand.
Trouble is changes take a LONG time and people give up before they see any. I can't blame anyone who does that.
It's just an individual thing.
In my case I stood mainly because there was no ow. I figured why not? Did I think he may turn back. Of course I did. But that's my story.
You'll figure it out hawk. You'll know when and if you've really had enough. If you're still doubting it then I'd say you're not done yet.
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Hawk, I've merged the thread you started with the ongoing discussion one. There is a lot of stuff about standing/not standing here.
I guess what makes people think that their MLCer may want back is a trust in the MLC process.
Of course MLC usually takes a very long time, a lot come to pass in our lives, and when our MLCer is finally ready to return we may no longer be interested.
Still, I think one day at a time, is a good think to go by. And what will be, will be.
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Spot on thunder and anjae, l was under pressure and made a bit of a jumble of that one racing a dying pc battery ::) but yeah that was basically what l was getting at.
Say l did wanna R these days which tbh , l'm not sure about anyway but if l did that would mean standing bc hooking up with anyone new would def' finish things in my w's eyes.
So to stand and risk wasting more years , or to not stand and call it a day. But what do other people have to go on if they decide to go on standing , signs or movement or something showing them ?
Well , in my case, that's why l described that one thing thing about w when another girls name came up . lt was only a little thing but as far as w goes that was also a big thing at the same time.
But really , there is only little things in the big picture , l have at all and that's against a lot of huge things , like she divorced me for example , she moved out , she's held her course all this time , they are huge things , things that tell you a person must want out very very badly to do. Om , no idea , there was to start though.
But yet l have these little big things that contradict it all. Like she touches me , she still worries about me , she talks a lot as if she misses our talking , she ran someone she thought l was seeing into the ground and hates her with a passion, or things like she'll act weird if another girls name or mention comes up. She'll usually happily text back and forth for 4 or 5hours straight , mainly just d stuff though , nothing personal or life really .
But , she's done all this and is still doing it yet l have those weird little things going on in the undertone contradicting it all.
Are they enough to stand, waste more years, do they mean anything at all , really , when she still forges ahead on the other hand, even signed a new lease long term, bought all this furniture?
On one hand l've had this way in my head that life and time will show me and lead me , maybe someone new , maybe w , it'll just happen .
But on the other , no not really , bc if she thinks l've moved on and given up she'll never turn back , that's how she ticks.
So these are the sorts f thing l question right now bc it is a turning point for me and one way will 99% surely end things with w and any R . Yet l see people still standing here , with even less to go on but others with more , like thunders for example, he spends time with her, no ow. l mean there , there is something to go on .
Just on the other stuff here that seems to be going on about standers . l have the ultimate respect for standers and it seems bizarre crazy, that anyone in a forum about actually standing and the real heros, would even suggest standers weak or whatever.
Standing is tough stuff , it's sacrifice that could be for years , it's faith , and it must be love .
Racing off with someone new after 6 or 12 mths , a yr or 2, the minute they start to miss out on their attention or sex or lonely or can't stand on their own 2 feet, to me that's weak, that's not real love.
lf there is someone in life later, then l'd want her to be the type of person that could and would stand, not the weak one that races of the minute the going gets a little tough with the what abouts me me me's stuff.
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Pondering. I was watching a documentary on television last night about a storm ravaged island group in the pacific. A few of the local people were interviewed. One said that a particular nation of volunteers, in general, were especially helpful as they came in with the attitude of 'what can we do to help?', 'what do you need me to help with?', rather than 'you need to do this and this and that'.
I consider this philosophy a good fit for a forum of hurting LBS too.
We actually aren't really here talking about MLC on this thread. We are talking about behaviours, light switch changes of personality, and we are talking about the brain and brain science. What made our spouses go cray cray in a certain age range. Psychology has had very little to offer in this department so far. I think we're all looking forward to the day when someone has done a concrete study on this, but as osb said earlier, that is unlikely given the mid life jokes that abound.
The happiness u-curve studies were a media hit when they came out. I contacted one of the researchers involved in the study, to ask if he knew of anyone studying the changes of behaviours and personality that many of us here are dealing with. I received a very polite and concerned reply that no, that was nothing that he had heard that anyone was studying and that my husband should seek psychiatric help immediately.
We all know that that was not happening.
The closest fit that I have found in what is being offered today is that he might be one of the 10% to have their first major bipolar episode at midlife. Any psychologists that I have talked to have suggested that would be the most likely explanation. But it explains only some of the behaviours that the boys and I have seen and had to navigate all of these years.
And I'm open to the fact that in 10, 20, 30 years time, the 'best fit' explanation may be something else all together.
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Agreed on all counts, kikki. As I've said exhaustively during my time here on the forum, my xH was diagnosed bipolar and if the professionals treating him didn't disregard that, neither can I. Add in quitting his meds cold turkey, and it may not have caused his crisis, but certainly, that did not help it.
I do think MLC as an umbrella term is accurate. Like my father and I discussed months ago and I believe I also shared on my thread, it seems to be comparable to COPD in that way, with emphysema and asthma certainly being different disorders, but both fitting into the category. I do think we've got a wide range of folks here with different causation, but what we can give to each other on the common ground is what most counts. And many times, that's just the freedom to say what we need to and have some level of validation that our own process matters, no matter who we are or what experience we have.
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I'm also feeling a need to clarify :)
I've got no doubt that neurology underpins some disorders. Yet we know that, even in cases of clinical depression, schizophrenia and bipolar disorder, it's the interaction between the social world, genetic propensity and physical environment which can trigger, worsen or ameliorate the conditions. We can no longer talk about nature and nurture alone, or even social constructivism in isolation. They are interlinked.
However, after 6 years on this forum, and after extensive reading, I really do doubt that what we call MLC is one thing at all. In fact, there's no evidence for it. 10% of American men do have a something they crisis, but it's likely to be a cultural construction as this is not so prevalent outside the US, and absent in some cultures.
Occam's razor has been proven so wrong in biological terms. Almost every disorder is indeed multifactorial. There's no such thing as "this one molecule went wrong, so my brain crashed". Heart attacks? There are genetic predispositions, lifestyle predispositions, intercurrent illnesses and life events, all inhomogenously intersecting with the simple nature of narrowed cardiac plumbing - even that's not 'one disease' - but we approach heart attack as one disease based on commonalities of presentation, and commonalities as to how to treat it. I research the physiology of a fairly niche disease, and even that one the WHO has classified into 5 major types, each with over a dozen subgroups, each looking rather different from the other, with a somewhat different constellation of causes (...you should see the looks on my students' faces when I ask questions on this topic!). So, a relatively understudied phenomenon like MLC? Yes there are likely many underlying causes - but that doesn't mean we shouldn't group the similarities and study the whole grab-bag as a disease, while trying to sift out the lumps.
When I talked about a biochemical etiology, I do mean brass tacks. Biochemistry tells us very nicely HOW something goes wrong. It's a final common pathway ('because of all these things that each suddenly went out of step, now this key doesn't fit into this lock'). It says nothing about WHY. Childhood trauma, FOO, coping mechanisms, other mood disorders or underlying personality disorder traits, all collide with present events to decide WHY NOW (and possibly, WHY NOT THAT OTHER GUY). None of these theories contradict each other, they enrich each other (and make dumbfounded researchers struggle for their insights :P ).
I don't know that the phenomenon of MLC is truly more common in North America (many on this board from outside of NA). It may be that BD and the mayhem that surrounds it plays out differently in different cultures. Anecdotally, my uncle went through a full-blown MLC, but in his country and community, divorce is pretty much unheard of - following the stereotypical rages-and-withdrawal phase (followed the script to a T!), my uncle went off to live as a monk in a hermitage. My beloved aunt dealt, very much as this forum recommends. Eventually, uncle's MLC burned out, and he returned home. When my H's MLC started, talking with my aunt was an eye-opener. Yup, seems to happen everywhere.
Forgive my long-windedness... punchline: for MLC, biochemistry is only the lever. Psychology supplies the hand that pulls the lever.
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I don't know that the phenomenon of MLC is truly more common in North America (many on this board from outside of NA). It may be that BD and the mayhem that surrounds it plays out differently in different cultures. Anecdotally, my uncle went through a full-blown MLC, but in his country and community, divorce is pretty much unheard of - following the stereotypical rages-and-withdrawal phase (followed the script to a T!), my uncle went off to live as a monk in a hermitage. My beloved aunt dealt, very much as this forum recommends. Eventually, uncle's MLC burned out, and he returned home. When my H's MLC started, talking with my aunt was an eye-opener. Yup, seems to happen everywhere.
I would agree. I am now back working in an area that I worked prior to my marriage. Having worked in a completely different field for 20 plus years, the changes are a little gobsmacking. One of the changes are the many and varied nationalities of the lovely people that I now work alongside. It's fascinating. What I had once assumed, I now find is not necessarily true at all, about many things. Including the fact that many men at midlife suddenly can think destructively and abandon their wife and family for a younger woman. Apparently this is a very common phenomenon globally and through a broad range of cultures.
What we take as gospel is not necessarily so.
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Kikki, OSB so interesting. I grew up abroad and while I was too young for MLC to be on my radar (actually it was not on my radar until age 39), I think you are correct that it exists everywhere but may be regarded differently or the cultural coping mechanisms may be different. Historically men could take concubines and polygamy still exists in some parts of the world. Who knows, perhaps these practices actually began to safeguard the first wife and her children.
I think many parts of the world we regard as chauvinistic do have an aspect missing in the U.S. and that is a male culture that allows for close relationships and continued bonding among men throughout adulthood. This combined with extended families living closer and denser populations in general may prevent some men becoming too isolated.
If you watched Mad Men, remember Pete Campbell started to freak out once he moved to the suburbs. American life can be very alienating and lonely. When you live surrounded by people there are examples everywhere of how to live at all ages.
I wish there were monasteries worldwide for MLCers, though.
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And there are some pretty smart people on this forum so I don't think I'm the only one who can do these things.
Thanks to all for proving I was correct when I wrote this. The people on this forum are amazing, especially those posting on this thread. Way beyond my broken brain but I'm enjoying reading all of the posts.
American life can be very alienating and lonely.
Sadly, this is very true. I don't know what I'd do if my daughter and grandchildren didn't live close by.
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I find it interesting that so many of you realize there are so many different facets to MLC.
No two are exactly the same.
I came on this site and pretty much didn't believe my H was in a crisis. I felt he was so different from the other MLCer's.
It had to be he just fell out of love with me....UNTIL I read an article on Low Energy MLCer's.
It described my H to a TEE!!! Honestly, it was like someone wrote it just for him.
I realized there are different types of MLCer's. But it's still MLC.
Now having said that, not all LE MICer's are the exact same either.
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I wish there were monasteries worldwide for MLCers, though.
But Velika, did I mention how many hermitages my uncle bounced in and out of, during his MLC? ;D In another world I suppose these could have all been OW's - in my uncle's case, he kept signing up, living the heroically godly life for some months, then grumbling home to reboot and relaunch. Complained vociferously the first hermitage was too luxurious, the second too spartan (...this pillow is toooo soft! and this pillow is toooo hard!!). When I got an invite to visit him at his final hermitage attempt, "you'll love it dear, it has wifi and a hermit-cam"... that's when I knew he'd soon be giving up and going home to my endlessly patient aunt. ??? ::)
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OSB oh no! I am trying to imagine a support board for this. "Do I have a praying boomerang?" "Why an ashram down is an advantage to a Stander."
Did you say this also took three years? Did your aunt have any good advice for you?
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I have put some of the last post from the neuroscience thread here. They were getting away from neuroscience and turning into a discussion about MLC.
osb, I think I prefer a MLCer who goes from hermitage to hermitage to one with OW. Ah, yes, the troubles of a too luxurious or a too spartan hermitage. ::) Now, if only there was a perfect hermitage, suited to the MLCer wishes and wants. ::)
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Anjae, good idea because neuroscience is way above my pay grade. I don't understand much about it.
I only know about MLC. :)
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I just found this discussion when the neurology thread comments were moved here. But for me this move demonstrates why these questions are so compelling.
For me, MLC represents a huge question: What is Going On and How Might It Progress? Right now there is not a lot of formal research to go on. Unsuspecting spouses are forced to deal with something that appears like (and could be) a lot of different things all at once.
This forum offers examples of people who have had a very similar experience and in many cases done a lot of research or read enough to be able to offer insights and meaningful advice.
Before all this I had no reason to research midlife crisis, bipolar, NPD, BPD, spousal abandonment, major depression, sociopathy, SSRI reactions, emotional abuse, infidelity, Jung, what part of the brain personality and empathy reside in. I'm not sure where else on the internet I could go and find people who have not only looked into all that but have done so for the exact same reasons.
Sometimes I think there must be a far better term for what this is, something along lines of Acute Onset Depressive Disorder or even Acute Onset Depressive Psychosis. Sometimes I feel the big mystery is not whether to stand or not but whether this is neurological or psychological. Sometimes I think the decision to stand changes and evolves with circumstances both related to the MLC behavior and also just how life unfolds.
Regarding No Contact, I think that should be the advice for anyone who has experienced emotional or narcissistic abuse. If No Contact is impossible, I would advocate low contact and immediately retaining a lawyer to consult on all other communication.
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I agree 100 percent with your post about NC V.
Unfortunately I didn't realize just how abusive the relationship was that I was in. I thought I had to tolerate the nasty things the ex said and the behavior they have due to the crisis..at the time I was living with him (especially pre and post divorce) I didn't realize he was having a crisis. Even after his job loss. I know he's been miserable to live with for years due to his selfish nature. Monstered a lot. Criticized the crap out me. Gaslighting. It was just off the charts in the last few months I lived with him.Sent my stress level through the roof. That's taking abuse.
Everyone has to set boundaries and limits to how much control or pain or abuse they will put up with.
IMHO there are quite a few LBS's that have to go through quite a bit to get it through their heads. (raises hand) And a lot of it is not necessary. Sometimes LBS'a need to be encouraged to get away from them and go NC.
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I've been meaning to do this for a while. I've found a few articles; this one seems like a good summary.
Basically, no one approach is enough to explain MLC, it's a mixture of several factors, including biological, psychiatric, social.
"This paper examines the emergence, reification, and dissemination of the “midlife crisis” from a sociology of knowledge perspective. Two decades of articles on the subject from both professional and mass media sources (n = 233) are content analyzed. Upon elaborating the various biological, psychological, and social psychological theories of this biographical phenomenon, we address such questions as how different disciplines portray the event, what patterns of interdisciplinary citations there are, and how these professional depictions lead into the mass media. The results suggest longitudinal declines in the frequency of reductionist explanations from the biological and psychiatric paradigms and increasing attention given to the interplay between social dynamics and personality structures. From this, a new sociocultural theory is posited, one portraying this subjective experience deriving not simply from age, but from external social temporalities. Specifically, we consider the particular cohort that most midlife research is based upon as well as the particular historical period when it reached middle age."
From http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1475-682X.1984.tb00061.x/abstract (http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1475-682X.1984.tb00061.x/abstract)
I'll add this link only because it's by a neurologist talking about different types of crises in our lives, but distinct because of the social and physical changes in each period. So not one MLC, but crises, plural, along our lives, and we all have them. (This is not to minimize in any way the devastation caused by the radical changes we face when our spouse seems to change radically. )
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2225411015000528 (http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2225411015000528)
The other articles I've found don't belong in this section on biochemistry and brain research; most stuff about MLC is either psychological or multidisciplinary.
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OSB oh no! I am trying to imagine a support board for this. "Do I have a praying boomerang?" "Why an ashram down is an advantage to a Stander."
Did you say this also took three years? Did your aunt have any good advice for you?
;D ;D ;) My uncle was always a bit of a fitness freak, but during MLC, became an extreme austerity nut - prolonged fasts, cold stress, meditating in stress positions, all kinds of nonsense you can only do when you're surrounded by like-minded misanthropes who want to mortify the flesh and subdue every healthy impulse. There's a sort of extreme-sport heroism in it (...um, hermit-cam??!!). Better than indulging the flesh with an OW, I suppose! But not by much. I'm not sure god really wants our blasted remains! By the time he limped home to my aunt, uncle was fragile as hell.
Some three years after my uncle's MLC burned out, my H started. My aunt was a tremendous source of calm for me. Kept telling me, "just deal with what you can control; your H is out of your hands, so simply don't let anything he says or does touch you". That felt insane initially (like any advice from this website, it took me some time to understand). Mind you, when my H finally phoned her - clearly back in his own mind - my aunt was perfectly relaxed chatting over the phone with him, and then promptly called my mom crying her eyes out, saying "he's back, he's back!". So maybe she wasn't as calm inside as she gave me to know.
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Mermaid, neuroscience does not deal with "Temporalities of Identity"- And this thread is not for MLC. And when we say MLC in a psychology/neurobiologic way, we are not talking about the crisis as an indentity issue, we are talking about the inner processes and functions that happen inside a person that result in the behaviours we see in MLCers. We are talking of how stress affects the amygdala, the immune system, the neurotransmitters, the hormones, etc.
Michael C. Kearl is a sociologist that works with sociology of life. The paper is from 1984, 1984 was 32 years ago (in neuroscience that would be the equivalent of 1000 years ago or so). The abstract of the paper reads "This paper examines the emergence, reification, and dissemination of the “midlife crisis” from a sociology of knowledge perspective." Sociology (of Knowledge or other) is not neuroscience.
Nora J. Johnson is a clinical psychologist from the University of Pennsylvania: "Nora J. Johnson, MBA, MS, PsyD Clinical Psychologist" https://www.pennmedicine.org/providers/profile/nora-johnson And the article has nothing of neuroscience. Neuroscience articles and books talk about neurological process and functions (like some of the ones I mentioned above) and use neuroscience terminology. Of course there are several types of crisis. Below Johnson's article there is a list of articles, they include "Quarterlife Crisis: The Unique Challenges of Life in Your Twenties", "Death and the midlife crisis", "Later Life Crisis" or "Are You Having an Identity Crisis? The Search for Fulfillment". The articles are all about different types of crisis, but they are not neuroscience, biochemistry or brain research.
I think both your post and mine should be move either to the discussion thread on the articles thread.
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Anjae, good idea because neuroscience is way above my pay grade. I don't understand much about it.
I only know about MLC. :)
I think neuroscience is simple. ;) Now, MLC, that really is above my pay grade. ;D It is probably the most complicated thing I ever come across. And one of the most bizarre. Or maybe it is simple, but the name it is known makes it difficult because not one truly looks into it in a proper research way. ???
Velika, maybe the word bipolar should be part of the name? High Energy MLCers have two poles, depressed and manic, like bipolar people. Maybe Acute Onset Bipolar Disorder? Bipolar, of course, includes depressive, but depressive tends to be used towards unipolar depression, the one with only the depressive pole.
The neurological will affect the psychological. Think about stress. Or monthly cycle. Or peri-menopause. Or being pregnant. Or thyroid problems. What about the psychological, will it affect the neurological? Yes, that is why it is better to have positive than negative thoughts. The negative thoughts will negatively impact our way of seeing things, leading to a series of processes in the brain, leading to "seeing everything dark" = being depressed. Then, the vicious cycle will be installed.
The problem with No Contact is that, if the LBS is seeking reconnection and reconciliation, it may not be a good approach. But each LBS must do what is best for them.
osb, your uncle went to the opposite end of many MLCers. Rather than epicurean, spartan. His MLC craziness does not sound fun at all.
So maybe she wasn't as calm inside as she gave me to know.
Probably not, but your aunt was great in her external calm.
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Mermaid, neuroscience does not deal with "Temporalities of Identity"-
Yes, it does. Look at work by Dennett, and especially work by Damasio. Nothing to do with MLC, but all about the neurology of identity.
I was trying to find academic articles about MLC in answer to a request earlier in this thread, then restricted it to those mentioning neurology or biochemistry because of your earlier comments. I found none about the neurology of a MLC (it would be strange as its a social construction). Unfortunately I got distracted, posted hastily and didn't finish or review.
And this thread is not for MLC.
Michael C. Kearl is a sociologist that works with sociology of life. The paper is from 1984
Sociology (of Knowledge or other) is not neuroscience.
Nora J. Johnson is a clinical psychologist from the University of Pennsylvania.
Yes, you're right. But Johnson calls herself a clinical neuropsychologist.
Of course there are several types of crisis.
I'm glad we agree.
Midlife is a specific time in life, and any crises (plural) that occur then have their specificities related to age/ biology/ social context, even neurology.
Many people on this forum ask "is it MLC?" When they are dealing with someone older or younger. The answer should be no... It may be a crisis, but MLC belongs to midlife.
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We had a very interesting thread a few years ago about MLC. So much gets repeated on this forum, but here is the link to the archived thread, in case anyone is interested.
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=191.90 (http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=191.90)
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Mermaid, neuroscience does not deal with "Temporalities of Identity"-
Yes, it does. Look at work by Dennett, and especially work by Damasio. Nothing to do with MLC, but all about the neurology of identity.
Here's a summary Damasio's neurological research on temporalities of identity.
Damasio hypothesised three neurological levels of the self, which explains how we can remain the same, yet change with time and context. The first level is the stable, but unconscious, proto-self, present before birth (1999:154); the second level, core-consciousness (1999:16), leads to a sense of self in the present moment, and is the source of emotions (1999:219) and is stable across a life time, under strong gene control. The third level, extended consciousness, associated with autobiographical, narrative self (self-identity), is an awareness of the lived past and anticipated future, language and memories playing a key role. It developed later evolutionarily than core and proto-self, and is dependent on core consciousness for its existence. Thus thought and learning are not limited to language, nor does language give access to the whole of consciousness. Although there is a tendency towards multiple stories about the self, the deeply biological self selects drafts according to a unified sense of self. There are limits to how this unity can be maintained in all contexts at all times, and there are instances when conflicting conscious and unconscious desires may change the direction of this self. Damasio argues that there is a tendency to “return to base”.
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This bit is about the neurology of decision making. None of us makes purely rational decisions; neurologically, emotions always underlie them.
Recent neurological research supports the idea that emotions underlie rationality and decision-making. Wilson (2004) shows how the “adaptive unconscious” filters information, sets goals, and makes judgements and decisions. These processes may lead to both thoughts and actions, so conscious thoughts may be only rationalizations of unconscious processes. Damasio (1994, 1999, 2003) demonstrates that patients whose emotional reactivity is impaired (through damage to the prefrontal cortex or the anterior cingulated cortex) have immense difficulty making decisions. This difficulty exists despite patients having full knowledge of decision outcomes and normal intelligence. Their difficulty arose from their inability to assign values to the options available, leading Damasio to propose the Somatic Marker Hypothesis. This describes how the brain is positively or negatively affected by experiences from socialization, connecting rationality, emotions and the self. Knowledge, says Damasio, is thus deeply dispositional. However, this is not a behaviourist mechanism; somatic markers do not cause decisions, but form the neurological basis of a personal value system. According to Damasio (1994), emotions have precedence neurologically over rationality. As not every aspect of behaviour is conscious, not everything is open to rationality. Paradoxically, this means that rational decisions can be made subconsciously, using a value system formed according to emotional reactions.
This has important consequences, as rational decisions do not only arise from abstract knowledge, but are linked to emotional biases. These lie partly in the unconscious domain; thus tacit knowledge is important. It supports the idea of a pragmatic, bounded rationality in which relationships and trust are important. Thus socially rational behaviour is not necessarily conscious, and conscious knowledge does not necessarily lead to rational behaviour. Neither knowledge nor emotions lead to socially rational decisions on their own, but emotions, as markers of social values, are an essential part of decision-making. Yet explanations of decision-making may only be an illusion, a rationalization after decisions have been made unconsciously (Wilson 2004).
I know this is a bit academic and dense in constructs, but I hope it helps.
My point is that ideas such as self and identity are always social constructions; the third level of self, which is autobiographical, is linguistic, and comes from how we develop and change in social context. We all have multiple drafts of this "self" which are always changing. There is no one true "self", but proto-self is closest to it, although it's not accessible to our consciousness except in brief glimpses. The second level, emotional self, together with somatic marker mechanisms (from by social learning) may affect how our MLCers appear to suddenly redraft their social identity, especially if conflicting emotions bubble up from the unconscious.
It's unlikely that neurological disorders cause MLC, which basically a social and emotional crisis. I've posted these summaries to show how neurologically people reorganise their identities, life stories, and make decisions.
It's entirely possible of course that some people have a neurological malfunction, from an ischemic attack or other causes, but it's unlikely to be an explanation for what we call MLC. Most especially, some of the diseases mentioned on this forum have a number of other manifestations.
It is possible that hormonal changes underlie the effects seen in some MLCers.
In other cases, it seems more likely that psychological and social forces are at play.
Hope this helps, to anyone who has read through to the end.
Mermaid X
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It's unlikely that neurological disorders cause MLC, which basically a social and emotional crisis. I've posted these summaries to show how neurologically people reorganise their identities, life stories, and make decisions.
It's entirely possible of course that some people have a neurological malfunction, from an ischemic attack or other causes, but it's unlikely to be an explanation for what we call MLC. Most especially, some of the diseases mentioned on this forum have a number of other manifestations.
It is possible that hormonal changes underlie the effects seen in some MLCers.
In other cases, it seems more likely that psychological and social forces are at play.
I wonder, though, how to account for the sudden onset, often in direct contrast to previous values and beliefs. Many medications include contraindication for personality and behavioral changes. Under this case we don't assume that the patient has had an identity crisis.
From some of the things I have read on the site, this also does not explain why people who come out of MLC describe themselves as being in a fog and not understanding their choices or having a memory of them.
There is also the question of how radical the changes are. People are not coming to this board with spouses who are saying, "I think my feelings for you have changed." Oftentimes it is going from apparently loving and stable to cruel, vindictive, erratic.
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I wonder, though, how to account for the sudden onset, often in direct contrast to previous values and beliefs. Many medications include contraindication for personality and behavioral changes. Under this case we don't assume that the patient has had an identity crisis.
From some of the things I have read on the site, this also does not explain why people who come out of MLC describe themselves as being in a fog and not understanding their choices or having a memory of them.
There is also the question of how radical the changes are. People are not coming to this board with spouses who are saying, "I think my feelings for you have changed." Oftentimes it is going from apparently loving and stable to cruel, vindictive, erratic.
Velika, it's possible that some people have taken medications, others haven't. Some people may have neurological problems, others haven't, some people describe a fog, others haven't. Some of them appear to make a quick switch, some of them don't. I'm certain, from my experience and reading the stories here, that some people have hidden or repressed psychological problems, which come to the fore. There's no one-size-fits-all, and no one neurological event that triggers MLC.
I'm not explaining in this post what MLC is, but the neurology of how identity is constructed and choices are made. If you read Wilson "Strangers to Ourselves" for example, you will understand that people are often unaware of how they make choices. They make them for emotional reasons, and tell a story about them afterwards.
Likewise, people are unaware of how their emotions impact on their identity and choices; there are aspects of the self which are not amenable to introspection. And each version of the self that we invent seems like the true one, and there may be no recollection of the previous drafts. I haven't added anything about the neurology of memory, but it's fascinating what we remember and what we forget. Memories are not recorded whole, but in different parts of the brain, and change with time/ circumstances.
None of us are the people we think we are!
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There's no one-size-fits-all, and no one neurological event that triggers MLC.
There are also different types of depression.
Overt(Obvious) and Covert(Hidden), along with different childhood issues, occurring at different ages.
All these things contribute to make different things happen in MLC.
My .02
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There's no one-size-fits-all, and no one neurological event that triggers MLC.
There are also different types of depression.
Overt(Obvious) and Covert(Hidden), along with different childhood issues, occurring at different ages.
All these things contribute to make different things happen in MLC.
My .02
Absolutely, OP. Wholly agree. I think it's so important not to be reductionist with MLC.
BTW Has the thread "Biochemistry, neurotransmitters and brain " been wholly moved to this general (no topic) discussion?
I'm confused as to why the neurology of identity should be moved out of a discussion on the brain?
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BTW Has the thread "Biochemistry, neurotransmitters and brain " been wholly moved to this general (no topic) discussion?
I'm confused as to why the neurology of identity should be moved out of a discussion on the brain?
I think Anjae moved some of the discussion here that did not pertain to the topic and was more MLC related.(discussion related)
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BTW Has the thread "Biochemistry, neurotransmitters and brain " been wholly moved to this general (no topic) discussion?
I'm confused as to why the neurology of identity should be moved out of a discussion on the brain?
I think Anjae moved some of the discussion here that did not pertain to the topic and was more MLC related.(discussion related)
Some of it should have been moved, because it was more general. That particular post was not even about MLC, though mentions it. It may have been a challenge to some concepts people have???
IMHO, it's more useful to have labelled discussion threads, like we used to, such as "what is MLC" etc. This discussion thread meanders through a variety of subjects, so it's hard to know what it's really about.
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BTW Has the thread "Biochemistry, neurotransmitters and brain " been wholly moved to this general (no topic) discussion?
I'm confused as to why the neurology of identity should be moved out of a discussion on the brain?
I think Anjae moved some of the discussion here that did not pertain to the topic and was more MLC related.(discussion related)
Some of it should have been moved, because it was more general. That particular post was not even about MLC, though mentions it. It may have been a challenge to some concepts people have???
IMHO, it's more useful to have labelled discussion threads, like we used to, such as "what is MLC" etc. This discussion thread meanders through a variety of subjects, so it's hard to know what it's really about.
Yes it appears to be re-purposed as a catch all discussion thread.
Anjae and I like to keep the amount of threads on the community board as manageble as possible and not have tons of little fragmented threads.
What would you like to name it? - I can change the name.
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Yes it appears to be re-purposed as a catch all discussion thread.
Anjae and I like to keep the amount of threads on the community board as manageble as possible and not have tons of little fragmented threads.
I understand that... it can be hard to find anything with so many posters nowadays. Not like the old days... ;D
What would you like to name it? - I can change the name.
:D Thank you for the offer, OP... but I can't think of any name which would cover discussions which range from how we should handle ourselves on this forum, to handling our MLCer, to bits about what MLC is, to neurology. May be someone else will? I'm not so creative... :o
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There are also different types of depression.
Indeed. Here are a few: Major Depression, Persistent Depressive Disorder, Bipolar Disorder [it is a type of depression with two poles, a manic and a depressive one], Seasonal Affective Disorder, Psychotic Depression, Postpartum Depression, Premenstrual Dysphoric Disorder, 'Situational' Depression, Atypical Depression. http://www.webmd.com/depression/guide/depression-types
Bipolar itself has several types: Bipolar I, Bipolar II, Cyclothymic disorder, and the "subcategories", Mixed features and Rapid-cycling.
To our best knowledge no, there isn't, a single neurological even that triggers MLC. But there is a common denominator, Stress. Stress triggers all sorts of neurological/physiologic events. Depression is also present. Depression also triggers several neurological processes.
There is usually hardly a single neurological, or other, even that contributes to any given situation. Many processes happen. A stroke is felt in the brain, but it comes from the heart. And it triggers, affects, a series of different things in the brain, not just one.
I think Anjae moved some of the discussion here that did not pertain to the topic and was more MLC related.(discussion related)
I did. The post was also about MLC, it come in sequence as the previous ones. We already have too many discussion threads, that I keep merging into each other. Each day news one pop-up, then, in the same day, or a few days latter, I will have to merge them all. They make it very hard to do tech work, and take up too many resources.
You may like it better the way it were, but for practical tech reasons, like OP said, we try to have as few small fragmented threads as possible. The board has become too big, and there is only a couple of us to manage the tech side. And we keep the board as comfortable as possible for us to manage it.
So, if you don't mind Mermaid, the posts will remain here and this discussion will continue here. I do not want to have to be splitting and merging more than I already do.
The concept that MLC is an emotional and/or social crisis is not new. It is the normal, old/traditional view of MLC. There is nothing challenging in it. It is what has been said about MLC for decades.
You will most likely not find the name MLC in most of the neuroscience books that deal with the hard technical side of stress, depression, etc. But you will also not found the term MLC before 1965, when it was invented by Elliot Jacques. However, MLC existed before 1965. What you will find is a description of the processes of stress, depression, etc in the brain, how they affect the body and behaviour.
I wonder why you seem so determined to dismiss the existence of MLC. Saying that there are several types of life crisis does not deny the existence of a crisis that hits at midlife, has a set of patterns and unfolds a certain way. Is MLC existence a problem to you? If so, why? And if it is, why are you posting in a board and site dedicated to MLC? It truly intrigues me.
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To our best knowledge no, there isn't, a single neurological even that triggers MLC. But there is a common denominator, Stress. Stress triggers all sorts of neurological/physiologic events. Depression is also present. Depression also triggers several neurological processes.
Yes, I agree that stress triggers many neurological and psychological events. But can you be sure that stress is the one key issue? If so, what's the source of this certainty?
When you say "to our best knowledge", who is the plural person?
There is usually hardly a single neurological, or other, even that contributes to any given situation. Many processes happen. A stroke is felt in the brain, but it comes from the heart.
:P From the heart? Is this something new? Where is the science for this?
I think Anjae moved some of the discussion here that did not pertain to the topic and was more MLC related.(discussion related)
They make it very hard to do tech work, and take up too many resources.
The board has become too big, and there is only a couple of us to manage the tech side. And we keep the board as comfortable as possible for us to manage it.
I understand, and respect that.
I wonder why you seem so determined to dismiss the existence of MLC. Saying that there are several types of life crisis does not deny the existence of a crisis that hits at midlife, has a set of patterns and unfolds a certain way. Is MLC existence a problem to you? If so, why? And if it is, why are you posting in a board and site dedicated to MLC? It truly intrigues me.
Anjae, I understand your question. It's not my intention to upset, but to be provocative. It's what I do as an academic.
My intention is not to dismiss (actually I don't, at all), but to question. What I especially question is simple approaches, and the idea that there is one MLC, one cause, one pattern, one process. In any other area of human behaviour, learning, stages (Piaget's childhood development, which broadly correspond to neurological changes; Kubler Ross, on stages of death and dying), rigid stages have been dismissed as too simplistic, and not a good explanation of what happens. Neither neurological development nor social engagement is enough to explain major changes in human behaviour.
And as I've said, several times, there seem to be a number of issues. What they have in common is that the spouse makes a major, shocking change in their behaviour which leaves us LBS reeling, deeply hurt and confused. When we are confused, we seek solace and many of us want explanations. For some, its religion, for others, it's to see a pattern in their behaviour which helps us to accept it.
I'm no exception (except I am not religious). Which is how I came to this site.
What I like about this site is the support, the idea of hope, the self-reflection, and access to many articles. RRR is particularly open and accepting, encouraging questions. She even suggested the topic "Does MLC exist?" She doesn't take a rigid views, although she offers her clear insights. In other words, she isn't dogmatic, despite having her point of view. It's a perspective which I think shows great tolerance, confidence and openness, which I value, and also recognise as important qualities in adaptation.
It's through this site that I began to understand the many and varied perspectives of what we call MLC (as I said, it's like the word "headache"... the apparent similarities belie the differences in the cause).
What's troubling about MLC being a single thing is that it doesn't allow for insight into particular cases, and it actually creates a culture of expectations (paradoxically for this site, which recommends not having them), by "following the process".
The best process, and so well encouraged here, is individual growth, independence, detachment and living our own lives. Many of us have changed and grown as a result. But meanwhile, for those of us who still have a spouse at home to deal with, and tough decisions to make, the expectation that MLC will just run its course and end, is not enough.
I still refer to my H's more unpredictable behaviour as his MLC. And it was, of sorts. But the reason that I'm back here is that all the explanations of stages, tunnels and seeing the light are just not enough to explain his behaviour.
It's absolutely essential that we recognise that MLC is an umbrella term for many different things.
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Mermaid, I hate to be blunt, but you've been flying all over the forum in recent days and it seems that you are now accepting what most of us who have been looking at brain function (as one puzzle piece in the perfect storm that has hit our spouses at midlife), have accepted long ago. That there is likely not a 'magical unicorn tunnel story' for our spouse.
What I personally witnessed, I believe and have believed for a very long time, is unlikely to ever fully resolve. This is a man who, if he accepts that he even has health/personal issues to deal with, will likely have to manage himself for life. It would appear that you are now considering this for your situation too.
You have written that one of your main hurts re your husband is his superiority towards you. Have you considered that you may be unconsciously projecting this onto these threads? You seem to be trying to convince us all of something that we came to terms with long ago.
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Mermaid, I hate to be blunt, but you've been flying all over the forum in recent days and it seems that you are now accepting what most of us who have been looking at brain function (as one puzzle piece in the perfect storm that has hit our spouses at midlife), have accepted long ago. That there is likely not a 'magical unicorn tunnel story' for our spouse.
I don't mind that you are blunt, Kikki, but I've accepted this for a long time. I've been on this forum, on and off, for over 6 years, like you, and came to that conclusion long ago. I admit to incredulity at certain comments recently where people thought Brain function was THE cause of MLC, or that there is one cause underlying it. I am somewhat bemused when you say you think I am now accepting this???
What I personally witnessed, I believe and have believed for a very long time, is unlikely to ever fully resolve. This is a man who, if he accepts that he even has health/personal issues to deal with, will likely have to manage himself for life. It would appear that you are now considering this for your situation too.
That's true, very true, Kikki. No exit of the tunnel for my H. It also means that I have to see how well I can handle him and our R given my new insight into his degree of narcissism. I'm not sure, Kikki, I'm just not sure I can. It's almost like being faced with BD again. I suppose it makes me feel, deep down, somewhat furious at the simple versions of MLC.
You have written that one of your main hurts re your husband is his superiority towards you. Have you considered that you may be unconsciously projecting this onto these threads?
I don't think I'm projecting. I'll admit something, quite honestly. I've got a horrible side, and long have. I argue, discuss, take issue with things and react. I fully admit this as a fault, although it actually gets me ahead in my world, in academia, where it's at expected. I've done this forever. But I never like to hurt or humiliate, and I will always admit a fault. And I will listen to reasoned discussion, and cede issues where they are well founded.
On the narcissism thread, I quote dr Malkin, who says we all have our narcissistic moments. I have. One is where I argue, the other is when I get furious. And I have long admired my H's superior intelligence and knowledge. There's a reason we were attracted. That makes me a mirror of him. I actually think I'm good at some things and terrible at others, like most people, which makes me normal. He is good at everything (except personal relationships), and works hard to maintain that lead, physically (in sports) and intellectually. He can neither admit failure or apologize.
On the other hand, I will also keep the peace, be very nurturing, fixing, taking care of others. That's echoism, the opposite of narcissism (and this is not necessarily healthy).
What it means is that my behaviour, fury, care taking and the way I react to him has to change more deeply.
I've been very open and honest here, Kikki. None of us is perfect, and facing our weaknesses is a way to grow.
You seem to be trying to convince us all of something that we came to terms with long ago.
You did, I did (we both discussed MLC on a post 5 years ago ), but not everyone does. Many people don't. I guess they believe what they need to believe.
But despite my open admissions here, while this forum is about open discussion, do you really think that I should stay silent? I find that very worrying.
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Thanks Mermaid for taking my post in the spirit in which it was intended.
I admit to incredulity at certain comments recently where people thought Brain function was THE cause of MLC, or that there is one cause underlying it
I don't see this at all. What I see/read is that many believe it to be a perfect storm, and that brain changes are likely but one piece of the enormous and confusing puzzle. And likely as a response to other things going on (hormonal changes etc). I can't answer your survey because I don't believe one reason was more of a catalyst than another.
I am somewhat bemused when you say you think I am now accepting this???
I was referring to acceptance that the philosphy of the Jungian writings may not be a fit for our spouses. Or at least not the whole picture. In my view, Jung's writings were good descriptors of behaviours, without necessarily understanding what the drivers of those behaviours may have been.
That's true, very true, Kikki. No exit of the tunnel for my H. It also means that I have to see how well I can handle him and our R given my new insight into his degree of narcissism. I'm not sure, Kikki, I'm just not sure I can. It's almost like being faced with BD again. I suppose it makes me feel, deep down, somewhat furious at the simple versions of MLC.
I completely understand this and can relate to feeling angry at the simplistic view of what I term the 'magical unicorn story'. It's not much of a fit for my situation either.
Agree Mermaid and thank you for your openness and honesty. We are all imperfect people and all come with faults and things we can improve on. One of mine is that I don't take too kindly to people who tell me HOW to think. I find it furiously annoying. Each to his own I believe as long as it's not hurting someone else. I've always asked why, always questioned authority. Have never taken as gospel what people in authority claim to be the right way.
I don't mind debate but who are each of us to demand how others process and conclude any of this experience. I find that attitude truly mind boggling.
But despite my open admissions here, while this forum is about open discussion, do you really think that I should stay silent? I find that very worrying.
Not at all. Speak away. I will just continue to be puzzled by any poster who tells others that their thinking is incorrect and that others should tow the line and think in the same way they do.
That's what I find very worrying.
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These last few posts have been very clarifying for me. I will admit to being a bit hackled and bewildered as I too thought it was territory we'd long been over. I feel a lot more perspective now from each of you. Glad we can have a real discourse about it that is respectful.
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Velika, maybe the word bipolar should be part of the name? High Energy MLCers have two poles, depressed and manic, like bipolar people. Maybe Acute Onset Bipolar Disorder? Bipolar, of course, includes depressive, but depressive tends to be used towards unipolar depression, the one with only the depressive pole.
The neurological will affect the psychological. Think about stress. Or monthly cycle. Or peri-menopause. Or being pregnant. Or thyroid problems. What about the psychological, will it affect the neurological? Yes, that is why it is better to have positive than negative thoughts. The negative thoughts will negatively impact our way of seeing things, leading to a series of processes in the brain, leading to "seeing everything dark" = being depressed. Then, the vicious cycle will be installed.
Anjae, I think this is a very good description and analysis. My belief is that it is a type of bipolar/like bipolar and it is acute; as you write the high energy is like bipolar and the wallower is like unipolar. I agree as well about neurological affecting psychological. Someone with depression and mania will have less control over their behavior and emotions. Both of the latter can be influenced by childhood, past experiences, etc.
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Mermaid, I hate to be blunt, but you've been flying all over the forum in recent days and it seems that you are now accepting what most of us who have been looking at brain function (as one puzzle piece in the perfect storm that has hit our spouses at midlife), have accepted long ago. That there is likely not a 'magical unicorn tunnel story' for our spouse.
What I personally witnessed, I believe and have believed for a very long time, is unlikely to ever fully resolve. This is a man who, if he accepts that he even has health/personal issues to deal with, will likely have to manage himself for life. It would appear that you are now considering this for your situation too.
You have written that one of your main hurts re your husband is his superiority towards you. Have you considered that you may be unconsciously projecting this onto these threads? You seem to be trying to convince us all of something that we came to terms with long ago.
Kiki,
Good to see you quote. I trust that you are well!
My experience mirrors yours...I do not see any resolution in my ex's future.....
"That there is likely not a 'magical unicorn tunnel story' for our spouse. " - I truly wanted to believe in a magical unicorn tunnel story.....sigh....
Hugs to you.
L
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Today on the news- depression = inflammation in the brain and anti-depressants work 50% of the time.
Curiouser and curiouser.
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Today on the news- depression = inflammation in the brain and anti-depressants work 50% of the time.
Curiouser and curiouser.
Wow! Totally makes sense. My husband had severe intestinal issued and started taking an SSRI. That's when the MLC behavior started. Exact same with his sister. Since there is an established gut-brain connection this makes a lot of sense.
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Changing, Trustandlove, Ready2 and anyone else reading along. I put your last post from the Biochemistry, Neurotransmitters, and Brain Research IV thread here because they are not on the thread matter.
Please lets try and leave that thread to its subject matter and debate other issues here or on more suitable threads. Thank you.
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Right on, Anjae. Thank you for all you do to keep the forum on point. :)
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You're welcome, Ready2. In fact, since those replies were to changing, I've moved them from here to her thread: http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=8605.0
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Good to see you quote. I trust that you are well!
My experience mirrors yours...I do not see any resolution in my ex's future.....
"That there is likely not a 'magical unicorn tunnel story' for our spouse. " - I truly wanted to believe in a magical unicorn tunnel story.....sigh....
Hi Limitless
Sorry, I'm not on the forum much any more and have only just seen this now.
Thank you, I am as well as can be. Hope you are too. This thing sure takes some navigation to remain upright.
I'm sorry that so many of us have experienced such destruction from our H's crisis despite our best efforts to have different outcomes.
It wasn't what any of us wanted.
Take care
Kikki