Midlife Crisis: Support for Left Behind Spouses
Archives => Archived Topics => Topic started by: ruggedendurance on November 13, 2016, 10:33:10 PM
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I have been sitting here and.... I've mellowed out.
I'm wondering. I was a good husband. Adored her. Tried my ass off to be everything a woman wanted....
I'm feeling now. She turned me into a more feminine version of myself than I am comfortable with. I was never jealous. I never gave her $hit for spending time away from me. I never wondered if she was up to no good....
I know now. She had a few affairs.
I'm wondering. If women make their men into "nice guys" to make themselves comfortable with the relationship and I'm wondering. If those same women are satisfied with the "nice guy" version of the man they met..........
I was waaay less macho with her than I've become.......... Way less macho than I am normally.
Just a question. I would love to know what the women think of this. I would love to know if they even think about this.
edited for language - OP
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OK I will play into your game - so do you think by using foul language
you are more MAN Like?
You think women will want to hear that and not be offended?
You think that will make you more appealing and able to catch a more desireable woman?
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I didn't see the unedited version of your post, but I think most people want to be married to someone who is genuinely kind and a good person. I don't think those are "feminine" qualities; I think those are the traits of someone who was raised well.
If you were feeling like you couldn't be yourself in your relationship or overly accommating, consider that some of your same behavior with another, more trustworthy and less troubled person, could have led to far different results.
Don't let this bad experience close you off to other people. I would take the time to really consider what feels like an authentically good way to treat others (and to be treated) from a position of confidence and strength and refocus that way.
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No i do not think that at all. I was te same way with my h. I didnt give him $h!te going out. I trusted him too much .what ilearned is that i should have spoke up more. My h did whatever he wanted. Sometimes i think i should have given boundries but i didnt want to ruffle feathers. I wanted to keep the peace. I figured if he had the freedom to do what he wanted he wouldnt leave and could never use me as an excuse for missing out. Seems that didnt work.
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Oh man Kb, I was the same with my 1st H. He had no boundaries at all.
When he went into his crisis and hooked up with his first ow, she had him on a leash.
My thoughts were the same as yours. I should have put up some boundaries.
To answer your question rugged. I wouldn't be with a man who was not a good man. I'm not into being treated by a selfish, self-centered man. So I never changed my H, he was always good.
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I didn't see the unedited version of your post
So - please humor me,
if you saw descriptions of female parts of the body as words how would that make you feel?
I will take responsibility for not allowing those words on our pages.
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guilty... I've always been attracted to the "bad boys".
I was more than satisfied when the "bad boy" turned into a "good guy" to be with me and raise our family.
I never thought less of him b/c he was no longer the "bad boy", just the opposite.
After 28 years of being a good man, he reverted back to his teen-age self. Now he is a middle aged D-bag that only cares about himself.
Could I have done anything differently to keep my man?
Of course not.
It's them, not us.
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OP is the picture of a feminized male..........
Yeah. My words were descriptive. Honestly. I felt less than myself in the marriage.
But the question is valid. I had heard that men marry women hoping they will never change. Women marry men in hopes of changing them.
I feel that I gave up a great deal of myself to make the marriage work for as long as it did. I honestly feel that she had no respect for the feminized version of me........ Or. What I see now as a feminized version.
Then........ I go to a bar......... Women are after a raging male........ The women I meet have no problem with my straight forward speech. They appear to be more macho than the men I see........
To me. There seems to be a distinct double standard
Probably not so different than a man that wants to meet a "nice girl" to marry but expects a w#ore in the bedroom......
anyway. This forum seemed like a place that I could pose the question
Oh. She has been gone 4yrs Oct. 7........ Still no sign that she can be any form of a human being.
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OP I'm calling you out on this one: he's being vulnerable and trying to get honest feedback, and you are attacking him for no other reason other than you can.
He asked women about this one, and I've noticed that this forum is getting more drama filled by the day. The last time I checked you were a man. This is an honest question, and he didn't offend anyone by asking it. It was honest and a good question.
Play his game? You're right about one thing: game playing is what's going on, but not with him. Honestly, the grudge holding on this forum is nauseating.
For once, just once, can someone ask an open and honest question without getting attacked for past offenses? We are the LBSers, but sometimes I wonder if there aren't some on here that aren't slipping into MLC themselves. Let he who is without sin cast the first stone. In other words, I don't believe there is anyone on here that hasn't had several weak moments. Rugged isn't the only one.
Let the guy get the question answered without the snarky remarks. Can we finally have a discussion where we stay on topic? Please? Since you're not a woman the question wasn't directed at you, so stop taking pot shots, it's distracting.
Rugged, I think that a lot of women feminize their men. Not necessarily on purpose, but because many men have tempers. It's hard to deal with someone that doesn't really understand you. That goes for both sides. I believe that men really want to please their women, if they're mature. Let's face it, most women marry "potential" if we're going to be honest. And, some people feel that someone else will "complete" them. All of it stems from insecurity.
Having said that, keep in mind that MLCers usually have shown signs: of insecurity, immaturity, lack of boundaries, jealousy, and/or irresponsibility throughout the marriage that the LBSer either downplayed or assumed that it would someday change. Most LBSers are fixers or just patient and figure that this too shall pass.
You did your best, and you can't do more than that. Don't beat yourself up too much, she made poor choices and bad decisions despite what you tried to be for her. We've all had to go through that. It is what it is. You can only do your best, if that wasn't enough for her... Well, you tried, and no one can fault you for that.
This is all that I'm going to say on this thread, so OP I won't be checking for your response.
Later.
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OP I'm sure I'm not the only one who appreciates everything you do in here.
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RE - Id like to take a stab at this. Honestly, who cares what someone else wants you to be. Work on being the best version of the man YOU want to be and the right people will come into your life, the wrong ones will exit. I agree with a lot of what you are saying. In my experience women want a man, not another girl friend. A little assertiveness and confidence goes a long way in this age of using the internet to avoid rejection when dating. I think when people are offended by how someone else presents themselves it speaks to their own insecurities. Especially online. We are all adults here and have been through some real sh!t, a few choice words should not be so frowned upon.
As for the grudges, I look at it as people still working through their own anger. Personal attacks like "Ill play your game" when RE is asking a sincere question are non sense. I appreciate all the work that the mods do but there should be an understanding and empathy for the fact that many are still healing... I had to leave hs when I was in the anger phase because I wanted to lash out at people who appeared weak to me. I could only see weakness in others because I could still see it in myself and I hated it.
RE, I did the same in my marriage, I let my guard down. Never again my friend, never again. I am focused on my personal development, raising my kids and my other goals. I happen to have met someone that fits nicely into that reality and appreciates what I am doing. The time we do have together is all about each other but we have our own lives and matters to attend to. I no longer look at love as being together all the time and having a dependent connection. For me it is all about supporting each other to be the best version of ourselves, appreciating and respecting our needs for time and space to accomplish goals and maintain friendships. I think when we are so focused on what the other person wants is when we lose ourselves in the relationship and in that regard I think women lose respect for a man that has lost respect for himself.
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Oh GEEEEEEEEEEz, here we go again
FH
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It was just a question. And the language that offended OP was descriptive of how nauseated I was with myself.......
I was just hoping for some honest feedback. To those that took a shot at it.
Thanks
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Hello Rugged,
Nice to hear your "voice" again. I've missed you.
Personally I find nothing attractive about a feminized man. But some people define that differently.
Yes, some women want a doormat as they are easier to control. And those women are just as broken as the man they attract. Broken attracts broken.
A person does not truly love a person they do not respect. Not in a healthy manner as real love begins from the solid basis of respect.
So you see a more feminized version of yourself came to be during the marriage? Yeah that's what I mean when I say so many of us lost ourselves in the marriage. Nows the time to be the man you lost and better. I've talked to you. I know there's a good man there.
That said we swing through this like a pendulum before settling somewhere in the middle. Manly doesn't mean giant a$$hole control freak. Manly doesn't mean pu$$y either.
Rugged some of us show pain by anger. You and I do that. Its hard for others to see that. It makes them uncomfortable, scares them, especially if they are already conflict avoidant types. Its easier for them if we are a crying puddle on the floor that they can pour sympathy and understanding on. So OK, I just figure we are an acquired taste. Not everyone can handle a good strong bourban you know? Some prefer a Shirley Temple.
Yes, women often want to change a man and look for potential. But a healthy woman wants the core man she fell in love with to remain and grow. She wants to add a bit of polish maybe and him to her. Not change the real man. I love introducing a man to new interests like movies, hobbies, food, art, a better cut pair of pants, a new place to vacation, new friends. And I hope he does the same with me. I want him to bring something to the table as well as being able to appreciate what I bring to the table besides my a$$. I'm not looking for a yes man or my long lost twin, a man that is intimidated by me or who tries to control me.
Many years ago I dated a man that taught me how to rebuild a motorcycle from the frame up. Who would have know that I'd turn out to love mechanical work. (Right now I'm doing the engine on an old triumph). Not terribly feminine for some but not my problem. I taught him to paint. He now restores old tanks and has a pretty good side business doing that. And NOBODY thinks he's not manly even though he discovered he has an artistic side.
4 years is a long time in hell. Wear your battle scars proudly as a new man. Well I've rambled enough. Time to get back to work.
Lp
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DJ, these 2 ( OP and Rugged ) have a history. That what I meant by grudges. I just wanted to clarify this.
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As per usual, we'll stated LP.
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DJ, these 2 ( OP and Rugged ) have a history. That what I meant by grudges. I just wanted to clarify this.
Just to clarify, I am an ADMIN of the Hero's Spouse, and
we have a Terms of Service agreement (TOS)
that I help to enforce.
Which is here
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=11.0
and includes the following
You agree, through your use of this website, that you will not post any material which is false, defamatory, inaccurate, abusive, vulgar, hateful, harassing, obscene, profane, sexually oriented, threatening, invasive of a person's privacy, adult material, or otherwise in violation of any International or United States Federal law.
I have no grudge against rugged, I think he has work to do,
just like the rest of us.
I would just ask that he follows the rules.
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OP,
You could slap a few with violations of this site. Maybe time for tough love???????????
FH
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My xH became obsessed with "manliness" (his word) at the beginning of his crisis (and it seems to continue). I have a hard time defining it. I always considered the xH a "renaissance man" because he'd acquired skills in many different areas, and never had any problem discussing his feelings. He seemed to be at many times in our life together confident of his individuality (ie didn't have to fit in with a stereotype or any particular set of expectations) and even took joy in challenging people's expectations of what he should or shouldn't be doing. He never seemed apt to lose his punk ethos. Some of the manlier things he always did include military service, martial arts, outdoorsman stuff, woodworking, etc. Could throw back beers and play dirty rock with the best of 'em. But he also sewed (machine and hand), cooked, practiced meditation and yoga, gardened, read Dorothy Parker and prized his fancy watch collection. His friends were liberal, conservative, every color of the rainbow and every sexual and gender identity.
So when he took on more traditional masks of masculinity (lumberjack clothes, facial hair, action films, bourbon guzzling, shooting, hunting, gathering ;D etc) and claimed I "emasculated" him by working and not being an "at your service" wife instead of the partner he'd always had, it was easy to lump it all into more of his "Mr. Hyde" persona. I certainly didn't get it, and yes, I preferred the other guy - though I don't think that was a man I made him be. He didn't stop his emoting and even became more of a chatty hen with OW and her girlfriends (would come home from some of their reenactment events talking about various gyno issues all the women had and how sad they were - how does THAT translate to "manly"?), so these accoutrements really were just costume, I think. He just didn't want to appear to be weak, but he still desperately wanted attention. I did eventually call him the "p word" - on the night he admitted he and OW were in a PA. Because frankly, no matter how a man appears, his actions define him. And I was raw and disgusted but those cowardly actions when I'd had to be so strong and carry him.
So would I want a man to not be "manly" because of this? I don't have an answer for that. I am attracted to men who are comfortable with themselves and don't give a damn what other people think. That's manly to me. But that doesn't mean I would want someone to clash with all the time. This is why I don't really define myself as a stander anymore. To take back my xH because he's my xH and not because we are a good match could be very bad. Things in common, strong sense of self, someone who won't bring me the drama my xH has. I don't want someone I either have to support financially, or who I would have to depend on. Independence all the way there. I have no clue how that would apply to basic gender roles. For some guys, that really is an issue I guess, and for most women, it's likely not what they want, either.
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Lord knows I'm far from an expert in a relationship.
Well I guess I want honest and direct and zero game playing..seems to be a problem to find a man like that. That's what a man is to me. Confidence. No drama. Good sense of humor. Someone I feel safe with. Someone I can trust. Someone who will LISTEN. Someone I may be able to count on when I need them.
Has his own interests and hobbies or things he does that makes him feel good.
I have been asked out to dinner in the past accepted then..nothing. What gives? I was asked was I supposed to play coy and make it harder for him.... say " Oh no I couldn't possibly do that" Play the shrinking Violet? WHAT?
Someone want to clue me in?? What's this thrill of the chase I read about. Is that what makes a man feel like a man? Am I supposed to play hard to get..here we go again. Make yourself too easy to get ( actually I'm just being honest) and it's "Oh $h!te who wants her." Seems like the bigger the b!tc# and the harder you make it, and the meaner you are the more desirable you are. The more they like it.
Games. No thanks. I don't have the energy for games.
Can someone explain this to me?
And IF (and that's a big IF ) it was getting more serious I would like both of us to have some upfront communication in form of a basic guide as to how to meet each others needs.
IMHO "The 5 love languages" is a wonderful book and explains all the ways people feel loved. I would like the man in the relationship to read it and highlight/ identify what makes him feel loved and secure and I would do the same. This means being vulnerable and I think that's a scary step for men to make.
Some may see it as handing you ammunition to wipe them out with instead of someone having a genuine honest desire to want to meet their needs too.
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Hi Rugged. I'm back for the first time in months- nice to see u here again stirring everybody up! This website would not be the same without you! Good question. Everyone behave yourselves. Everybody play nice. Life is hard enough. We can't be turning on one another!
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Hi RE, glad to see you again and that you felt you could ask such a sensitive question of us.
I had to think of where you might be coming from and realize you might think something is feminine but really isn't.
Men are socialized to think showing any emotion or having a 50/50 relationship or NOT having another woman for example is feminine when it's not at all.
That's just being a good man or good husband. Women or society may want to change their views of how a good man/husband should be.
Am I right in my thinking of how you might be feeling?
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Man.=confident, courteous, loyal, truthful, kind, strong, faithful, giving. Those apply to women, too. What exactly IS feminized? Am I manly because I change the light ballasts, plumb my sink, repair the toilet and mow the lawn? Ifso, I'm pretty much hosed since someone has to do it, and I'm the only one who didn’t run away.
A man should be who he is, whatever he is. If he goes to a bar, he will find the type of women who hang in that particular type of bar. Those may or may not be the type of women who hang out in church, or watch football or go for mannies and pedies. They may not be what a man wants or needs. Look elsewhere.
Figure out who YOU are, RE, and be that man. The rest will follow.
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Figure out who YOU are, RE, and be that man. The rest will follow.
The question was one that developed over simple observation. There is a comedian named Greg Geraldo that had a bit on it. How a woman will meet a man and drive all of his traits out of him. The end result is he becomes a neutered little puppy and why didn't she simply get a dog? It was what she was after in the first place.........
I was wondering if this was a universal thing.
The people on this site have had to be way more honest with themselves than most of society. I figured. If anyone was going to give me an straight answer......... I'ld get it here
And. It stems from the pretzel I turned myself into when I was married. I sat silent when I wanted to take action........ all of you are familiar with my definition of "action"
I feel terrible about a destroyed marriage. I feel terrible that I was married to such a damaged woman. I feel bad for the damage she suffered. I feel terrible that her damage runs so deep.
I feel terrible that I had lost so much of myself in the marriage.
And for what?
I guess that is all I am doing with this now. Just putting myself back together. An effort to find my authentic self.
Thanks for the replys
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I'm wondering. If women make their men into "nice guys" to make themselves comfortable with the relationship and I'm wondering. If those same women are satisfied with the "nice guy" version of the man they met.
This may be a Neanderthals view and controversial, but it is a view widely advocated by some traditional male voices, arguing that Thousands of years of survival modeling is baked into our lizard brains...I'll try to clean this up a bit and of course add the caveat that all stereotypes break down when exceptional outliers are encountered..when I began operating on this premise my relationship improved. So here goes.
Men have traditionally been protectors. To the extent a woman was "making you into a nice guy", she wasn't doing it according to a calculated plan.
It was in her nature to instinctively test you, to see if she could still trust you to be her protector. Being "nice" in response to this tests, is, in the short term, a way to avoid conflict...but in the long term you fail her emotional and instinctive needs. To pass the test remain authentic to who you are. Refuse to be a fake artificial, resentful, appeasing " nice guy ".
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I feel terrible that I had lost so much of myself in the marriage.
And for what?
I guess that is all I am doing with this now. Just putting myself back together. An effort to find my authentic self.
I feel you on this SO much. The closer I get to who I was before at least the marriage part (ten years in), but really what I wanted from life before him altogether, the more I can see how much of the real me was absorbed in this. Happiness vs complacency? Do we not know the difference until we're faced with the contrast?
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I forgot to say, I much prefer nice guys. I don't see them as feminine at all.
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I want to add that, living in a progressive city with a highly integrated LGBT population has shown me how limiting it is to think of qualities as male or female. A healthy person possesses a type of balanced strength that they lend to others. It is a positive energy.
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I just wanted to say, I see women all the time marrying a man in hopes she can change him. It does not happen. If you don't like them exactly how they are accept it or don't marry them.
Sorry, I see very few men who think they can change their gf if they marry them. Most of the time they think their pretty perfect.
I think it's more of a female thing, in my opinion.
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Its possible to be nice and still traditionally masculine. Seems like many times it is inferred that when someone says masculine people immediately associate that with bad boy / a$$hat. The most masculine men I know and aspire to be like are extremely confident and kind because they know they can handle themselves in any situation. They dont have to worry about their kindness being confused as weakness because they will not allow themselves to be taken advantage of. In my experience the jerks that are initially thought of as badasses are just fronting to avoid conflict... Kinda like a small dog that barks a lot.
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Personally, I don't want a "yes man". I want someone who is honest and forthcoming with who he is and how he feels. Nice does not equal douche bag. My H kept all these feelings stuffed down and I wish he had told me how he felt. b/c, well now here we are! Neither of us had any idea that he had identity issues, insecurity issues, or anything else. Seriously, he was the total package. I'm a no non-sense kinda gal and that was one of the things he said that drew him to me. I wouldn't have changed a thing about him!
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I feel terrible that I had lost so much of myself in the marriage.
Rugged,
I do know how you are feeling right now...There was a time when I struggled with those same thoughts. It was then the mirror started getting clearer for me...that it became so obvious all of the things I gave up, all of the sacrifices I had made...and it really helped me see how much I had changed. I saw that I had given up so much of myself that I had become ONLY HALF of a Whole. I was a Husband and a Father...nothing else.
I don't equate that with feminizing my behavior...more of a gradual melding of two lives, two personalities with our kids, in-laws, etc. It was healthy that we could "Mix" so well..but unhealthy that neither of us retained our individuality in the process. I think when both members of the marriage are healthy & strong that they are able to absorb the difficulties of this phase of our lives, while when one or both of the parties are not...you get conflict, stress & MLC. So when she got bumped, she went on tilt because she lacked the skills to deal with it an looked Outward to find her salvation...while when I got bumped and finally found the way to look Inward i found a better path for myself. In my case, my wife eventually found that path as well and now she has found herself and her own salvation as well.
So now...Is It Different? Definitely! I am not more Masculine...but I am damn sure more Independent! I am comfortable in my own skin and making my own decisions...typically we agree on most things now. But the biggest difference is the fact that I will no longer change who I am or what I believe just to make her happy. There are times when I can literally have the "AHA Momont" in my head where I can see where I would have gone before in a situation...but now I just won't do all the Fixing & Giving In that before. It is a truly good feeling to "FEEL" you own learning & growth. In doing that she has gotten stronger on her own as well because I continue to let her stand on her own two feet. Today we are still Husband/Wife & Mom/Dad but we are also still ourselves.
The fact that you are seeing all that you gave and all that you gave up is good, because you are seeing things clearly. But continue to look Inward to figure out WHY you gave up yourself in the whole thing. I know when I saw myself clearly and identified my weaknesses, unhealthy expectations, and the shiny & smudgy parts of my own character and personality...I was able to make some really healthy changes in my life. DJ is a great example to follow on this road as well as he continues his path forward. So keep looking in that mirror...because I think what you will find is not Macho Man but Independence.
Stay Strong.
BB
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OP is the picture of a feminized male..........
Yeah. My words were descriptive. Honestly. I felt less than myself in the marriage.
But the question is valid. I had heard that men marry women hoping they will never change. Women marry men in hopes of changing them.
I feel that I gave up a great deal of myself to make the marriage work for as long as it did. I honestly feel that she had no respect for the feminized version of me........ Or. What I see now as a feminized version.
Then........ I go to a bar......... Women are after a raging male........ The women I meet have no problem with my straight forward speech. They appear to be more macho than the men I see........
To me. There seems to be a distinct double standard
Probably not so different than a man that wants to meet a "nice girl" to marry but expects a w#ore in the bedroom......
Yep ,very true. see it every day.
Even with the kids , believe me l've had dozens of them staying dozens of times and the girls are way worse than the boys so there's really no need to kitty foot around.
And l also believe men do often seem to be the ones cutting back on all sorts of sh@t in a marriage and toning themselves right down,
Even mine , no femining crap, eff that , but even with my w being one of the coolest easiest going chicks around it was still always surprising how it always seemed to be me cutting back or missing out or watching myself with this or that,
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Thanks all.
these are great posts.
I guess. I am piSS poor at expressing myself. Masculine is the wrong word in a sense. Not in the sense that I felt like a neutered animal and........... I know what neutered animals act like. You don't leave a horse a stud very long unless you are willing to deal with a lot of bull$hit. That being said. In the horse world. I like the personality.
I'm not really from a touchy, feely world. So the things I see and the things that have formed my opinion and speech don't fit in with every audience........... I'm working at it.
Confidence does seem to be a much better word. I was not prepared to be a great husband. My dad was the biggest a$$hat on the planet. He suffered from a horrible childhood and suffered, from what I call, the small man syndrome. Just a human with all the madness you can stuff into a small man.........
So. My plan was to do the exact opposite of him in every situation............
I can see now. It was too simple. But to be honest. It was way better than I had been trained to be.
But. I wouldn't have described me as being a confident husband or father. I guess. I realized I didn't know how to be either one.
So yeah. The lack of confidence disgusts me....... Looking back now.......... If I would have been more confident. If I wouldn't have held myself in check. In most of the situations that pi$$ed me off....... The marriage would have never lasted as long as it did.
I realize now. I did the best I could with what I knew........
Honestly. I can probably say the same about her.
I am at an odd place in life. I have a few years left to get this $hit figured out and I really would like to finish in the best way possible.
Funny. I thought I asked a simple question
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Now that is the answer of a real man. Own reality. Then move forward. What you were then does not have to define who you are now or who you can be tomorrow.
Lp
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I wandered off on my own personal journey there. Sorry.
I really did want an answer and I got reply's that I wasn't expecting.
I did feel that I was being feminized by her and her family.
I'm guessing. They saw in me, the exact behavior that I displayed last winter.......... Or a strong potential for that behavior. So. In order to prevent any uncomfortable situations................ It was best if I was never encouraged.
That is fine....... I get it.
Then again. I feel that she was living in fear of something that was never going to happen. I went out of my way to be as calm and consistent as possible.
For those of you that believe it is beyond me to be calm and consistent...... I've spent a ton of time with large animals. A 1,200 lb animal demands that you remain calm and consistent. Even if you have to be rough with that animal at times. Calm and consistent. The animal will respond properly to the discipline you dole out. You actually develop a certain love for an animal you work with.
There is no person on the planet I could have loved more than her.
So. I feel her fear was unfounded and......... her fear drove her to emasculate me in an effort to make her more comfortable.......
I suspect. That could be the case in many marriages. It is underlying emotions that drive a lot of our behavior. Fear is a big emotion.
Even if it is unfounded. It is easily justified.
The problem with that is.......... I had never been judged on my merits. I had been judged on my potential to be a serious problem...
Let's face it. Any man can be a serious problem.
In the last 4yrs. I've also seen the kind of carnage a woman can dole out.......
I had never lived in the fear that she was capable of something like this... Even if I would have known. I see now. There is nothing I could have done to prevent it.
She can use that excuse (potential problem) to treat me like $hit in the marriage. Fine.
How can she use that excuse to f#ck a pig like creature while she was still married to me? If she was terrified of me? Wouldn't she do everything in her power to keep me from being pi$$ed off? What could possibly pi$$ me off more than that?
See what I am saying? That behavior she displayed, appears extremely inconsistent........
All of that being said, to say this.
What I've gathered from the responses.
Women want a masculine, confident man. A quiet confidence. A quiet masculinity. I understand and agree.
All I ask is this......... If a man does f#ck up every once in a while. Give him some space.......... If he has his $hit together? He'll come back around.
Display a little calm, consistency in your own camp........
Then. In the impossible situation that a woman screws up...............
I think we would all get along just fine
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R- I can't stop thinking about this thread.
Most of us on here have lost ourselves in someway while trying to keep our marriage together. I know I did.
I don't know why our spouses choose to throw us under the bus instead of looking at themselves. I thought we were a team.
Like your wife, he used pathetic excuses to justify his behavior.
I guess that's why we keep coming back here...to try to find answers, or at least try to understand.
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It never makes any more sense. I've studied it from every angle over the last five years, and there is NOTHING that can justify what I have been through. Once I started to see it through my own eyes, the anger came and I felt the injustice in a bigger way. The psycho behavior is worse than the infidelity and fallout in so many ways because of the triggers and trauma. We try to rationalize it or at least find a rational way to label it and move on, but there just is none. Accepting that is so very, very hard. Not applying it to every other area of your life with new relationships and establishing normalcy is also a huge challenge. I don't know why we were all 'picked' for this task, but I truly wish we weren't. I could have gotten character other ways.
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Rugged, we're in the same boat. Be how you want to be now, do it and accept nothing less. It was the first thing I did after BD and I love every minute of it. I'm honest, but fair, with myself and W and we're on a new path of honesty and working together.
I did the same thing you did, I sat quiet and learned to work around her rather than be honest and work things out because of her issues. She has the problems, she needs to be the one to get over them. However you can guide her and be an example and being how you want to be.
Re personality traits, I'm 90% female, 10% old male. I have no issue saying that and I bet most of the men on here with MLC wives would find them in a similar mix if they took an honest inventory of themselves. Everything I read about MLC, I keep having to switch H to W in my head to have it make sense to me. lol.
This is something to think about too.. a while ago it was in the news that a bunch of rough and tough veterans were coming out as transgender. Is it a surprise? Get rid of the stereotypical macho stuff and think about what first responders are typically associated with? A deep love of children, animals, family, cooking, a sense of nesting and protecting the "family" whether it be theirs or someone else's... Those are all female personality traits. The "male" drive that it takes to commit acts of violence or response makes up only a small portion of that person.
Yes, there are no neck, chauvinistic Neanderthals out there, but does that really describe who we think of when we visual the ideal paramedic, combat medic, soldier, nurse or firefighter? Not at all, it's everything I just said.. lol.
I'm just saying it goes to show you just are who you are and you tend to attract the opposite of your nature because it brings balance one way or the other.
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Rugged "I was not prepared to be a great husband. So. My plan was to do the exact opposite of him in every situation............I can see now. It was too simple. But to be honest. It was way better than I had been trained to be. But. I wouldn't have described me as being a confident husband. Looking back now.......... If I would have been more confident. If I wouldn't have held myself in check. In most of the situations that pi$$ed me off....... The marriage would have never lasted as long as it did. I realize now. I did the best I could with what I knew........ Honestly. I can probably say the same about her."
Thats great stuff RE! I have come to the exact same conclusions. After my parents divorce I vowed to do everything opposite. Extremes are rarely a good thing. Like you, if I would have been more confident the marriage would have not lasted. Hell, I probably would have never been married in the first place. The great thing going forward is that its all a choice! We can be whoever we choose to be. It is possible to change behaviors and not be controlled by our emotions.
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This thread is better than the man cave.
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Thanks for all the posts.
It gives me hope that I am processing this properly.
When it first happened. I couldn't find my a$$ with both hands and a flashlight. I was completely sideswiped by the whole thing. I never imagined my marriage would produce the bull$hit I've lived for the last 4yrs.
I spent the first year in shock.
Second year in disbelief.
Third year........... that was last year.
Now. I finally feel that I am completely done with any thoughts of her, one way or the other.
I've accepted all of it for what it was.
The question bothered me because of what I had heard and what I had seen from couples. When I heard that bit from the comedian. I assumed. Most women marry a man and expect to turn him into the "perfect" mate.
I believe it is fine and good to bring out the best in your spouse. But. If your effort is to bring out certain qualities for selfish reasons?
I guess I'm saying. I've learned a lot about projection.....
If my spouse believes she needs more money to be happy. She could assume that I would be happier if I had a a better paying job...... So she comes up with this plan that sends me to a couple of years of schooling. Then she is all over the resume' and the job hunt. She is on cloud nine because I am going to get a better paying job........... She is positive I am on cloud nine with her because of all the effort and encouragement I'm getting from her.
Fact is. I liked my job. I made enough money to be comfortable.
I am starting to feel pushed into some new lifestyle that I am not very interested in.
You know what? If she could get control of her spending........... we would have more money! Problem solved! I keep the job I like and everybody is happy.........
That is just a scenario. But. I feel that is the kind of $hit I was being subjected to. She wanted me to be a certain way, so she could feel better about herself.........
I called it feminized, less macho, a bunch of other bull$hit. But the reality was. She didn't feel good about herself so I had to change.........
Fact is. I was being pushed and manipulated in the marriage and I never realized it. I was supposed to become some kind of shining example for her benefit.
$hitty set-up.
So. Confidence is the word.
Knowledge would go a long ways also.
I am thinking now. It wasn't so much a lack of confidence as it was a willingness to go along. Be a team player. Do what is best for the team/marriage/family.
I was being manipulated and didn't recognize it. I was being pushed to be more of myself to make up for some lack in her. When in actuality....... she simply suffered from low self esteem and it was easier for her to work on me than it was for her to work on herself.
I could never do enough to make her happy........ she had no interest in looking inside for answers.
As of this minute. this sounds logical..... It even makes a certain amount of sense.
If I'm on the right track with this? Who knows...........
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I could never do enough to make her happy........ she had no interest in looking inside for answers.
It wasn't your job to make her happy.
It is only your job to make yourself happy.
Hopefully you can find this happiness without the use of mind altering drugs or chemicals.
I think you are on the right track.
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RE?
I was being manipulated and didn't recognize it. I was being pushed to be more of myself to make up for some lack in her. When in actuality....... she simply suffered from low self esteem and it was easier for her to work on me than it was for her to work on herself.
That statement makes a great deal of sense to me. At some point we allowed that for whatever reason or maybe some unconscious need.
I agree with OP in his statement. It wasn't your job to make someone else happy.
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Rugged,
This is something to think about too.. a while ago it was in the news that a bunch of rough and tough veterans were coming out as transgender. Is it a surprise? Get rid of the stereotypical macho stuff and think about what first responders are typically associated with? A deep love of children, animals, family, cooking, a sense of nesting and protecting the "family" whether it be theirs or someone else's... Those are all female personality traits. The "male" drive that it takes to commit acts of violence or response makes up only a small portion of that person.
gman , love where ya comin from. but with respect gotta disagree on one thing,
Yaknow , well for me anyway, anyone else can do what they want.
But l would never call those things like the children animals family and ra ra female traits at all.
There's nothing unmanly about any of that what so ever. l have all those traits and a lot more . My gf calls me a big chiwawa, can't spell that btw, LP l need you ;D , It's bloody funny actually but don't worry she calls me lots of other things too that l better not put in or l might blow up hs but they're nice things , cool things, ummm. mostly :D .
But personally l've always thought it's the bigger man that can be gentle and loving of things such as stuff like you've mentioned. l'd actually think the man that can't feel things like that kinda love has problems.
We're no different from anyone else , we have a heart and soft spots for affection and many of the things in life too.
But there is a difference and l do get where RE and yourself and some others are coming from especially with the manipulation thing.
And especially with a double standard thing in some cases ..
ahhh, dunno if any of this made sense. but just sayin my 2 cents for what it's worth.
Edit - Fix Quote - OP
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Youre not wrong.. Kindness and gentleness are qualaties you cant put a label on, although we often do in our culture.
I just meant it to say you are who you are and I myself have found it interesting that what qualaties we would often consider to be polar opposites, often peacefully co exisit within the same person.
My grandfather in particular is an excellent example of that. He is about the saltiest WW2 i have ever seen, but i also have never met a kinder person in my life either.
.
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gman,
I appreciate the response and agree with most of it.
This is something to think about too.. a while ago it was in the news that a bunch of rough and tough veterans were coming out as transgender. Is it a surprise? Get rid of the stereotypical macho stuff and think about what first responders are typically associated with? A deep love of children, animals, family, cooking, a sense of nesting and protecting the "family" whether it be theirs or someone else's... Those are all female personality traits. The "male" drive that it takes to commit acts of violence or response makes up only a small portion of that person.
One of my boys had served a tour in Iraq. The kid that went over there was as kind and loving as any on the planet. The person that came home was tortured and conflicted.
Which leads me to the point I'm going to make. Or at least my reasoning for it.
I don't know if it takes a man to commit acts of violence. Many of our finest women have served also and down through history. There have been women snipers that have been extremely proficient at their jobs... I cannot think of one occupation that would better qualify as violent..
I feel that a person that completely changes their personality or identity is a tortured/conflicted person. They become so disillusioned by the thoughts of themselves. They turned on everything they used to think. I see these people as very similar to the people that went into MLC and did their level best to be the exact opposite of the person they portrayed to us in the marriage...
I felt the same way about Bruce Jenner. The media promoted him as being so "brave" to have mutilated himself into a woman............ I saw him as a tortured human being. Completely uncomfortable in his own skin.
I may be way off on this. Many of my thoughts are suspect. Even to me. Although. I do feel that it takes a great deal of pain to make a person want to change everything about themselves.
I think it is far more normal to admit our weaknesses and work around them, than it is to $hit can our entire lives, to launch off into the world as a totally new/different human being.
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What if we take the other side of that coin re? I agree, an incredible amount of pain will cause an incredible change in a person. What if we lbs take that pain, recogize our weaknesses and decide to level up our lives? Work hard on ourselves to make positive changes and become the person we want to be! I guess I disagree with the "we are who we are" idea... Or maybe thats just who i am.
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What if we take the other side of that coin re? I agree, an incredible amount of pain will cause an incredible change in a person. What if we lbs take that pain, recogize our weaknesses and decide to level up our lives? Work hard on ourselves to make positive changes and become the person we want to be! I guess I disagree with the "we are who we are" idea... Or maybe thats just who i am.
^^^THIS^^^
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I don't know if it takes a man to commit acts of violence.
I was referring simply to the "essence" rather than the physical gender, to do so. I'm just saying that concern for family and protection (even in those female snipers) makes up the core of their person, whereas the drive to do what's necessary makes up a very small proportion in comparison.
You've made an excellent point and connection though in your post. I am sorry for your son's experiences and homecoming and please know that there is plenty of help available to him, if he isn't seeking it already. I would contact your local VA for resources as a place to start.
I too will ^^THIS^^ to Dji76's post.
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What if we take the other side of that coin re? I agree, an incredible amount of pain will cause an incredible change in a person. What if we lbs take that pain, recogize our weaknesses and decide to level up our lives? Work hard on ourselves to make positive changes and become the person we want to be! I guess I disagree with the "we are who we are" idea... Or maybe thats just who i am.
I get it. I guess where I am right now is a person in transition to who I want to end life as.
I met her when we were in our early 20's I've been a companion, husband and father. Regardless of how well I performed at those tasks..... that was my identity.
When she pulled out........... the way she pulled out...
We had been together so long I can't really remember living without her.
So. Now who the h#ll am I? My identity was taken at that time. Now I'm............ what? Single. available. broken. despondent. confused...........
I guess. I am conscientious enough to try to figure this out. I wasn't perfect. I have been way less than perfect for the last 4 yrs. I'm actually trying to come out the other side of this, a better person than the one that went in.
I know I process this madness like a bull in a china shop but I gotta face it. I'm not the most sophisticated guy on HS.
I adore women but. I never was a man w#ore so running to other women was never my bag. I am actually taking this time to figure things out.
Like I say. Not the best at explaining myself.
Thanks for the suggestions
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Like I say. Not the best at explaining myself.
Actually just the opposite. I'm looking at things a whole new way... I feel like I have gotten more information on this thread, more than the past 2+ years on this forum.
Until now I thought it was only me that lost myself. I was a stay at home mom, built my entire world around husband and the kids. My life became fulfilling their needs, not my own. I guess I took "It's him, not me" and ran with it.
I felt like I "allowed" him everything he asked for...
He wanted to work in another state....Ok (I gave up a great job offer so he could do his)
He wanted a motorcycle... OK
A mustang...Ok (I drove same crappy van for 15 years)
Join a band, hockey, guns, daily training at gym, ....Ok, Ok, Ok
Go somewhere, not go somewhere, etc
I was NOT a naggy type wife, I wanted him to have and do whatever he wanted... I couldn't figure out (and neither could anyone that knew us) why HE would run away from ME.... I adored him, I thought I gave him everything a man could want in a woman....
BUT,.... Like I said earlier in this thread, I liked the "bad boys" and that was what he was when we met (as teenagers).
He was in a band, women were literally throwing themselves at him. He had an offer to go to California and try to live his dream of being a rock star (this was the heyday of Hair bands, he had the looks and the talent).
I said I would wait...
He said no.
He said he was a man and knew men's thoughts when they looked at a women like me. He said he knew what it would take to keep a woman like me. Get a job, get a haircut, be faithful.
Instead of a rock star he became a husband, a father, a coach, middle management at a company.
Without making him, did he "feminize" himself to be with me?
What I'm asking is... Did your wife tell you to behave in ways that was against your nature or did you do these things because you wanted to be with her and you felt you had to make choices? Each time you chose a path that was against your nature, a small piece of you changed into someone else?
Like you said earlier, yes they could have fixed their current lives instead of blowing up everything/ everyone to try to make a new one but still....
I think I at least get it. I don't like it but I get it.
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What I'm asking is... Did your wife tell you to behave in ways that was against your nature or did you do these things because you wanted to be with her and you felt you had to make choices? Each time you chose a path that was against your nature, a small piece of you changed into someone else?
I did these things because I believed that was expected of me. It was pressure from the "norm" or the "norm" at the time.
It wasn't my natural bent.... I felt I compromised and I paid for it
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here is the deal.....
when I don't present my authentic self. I disgust myself.
I never disgusted myself when I was insanely drunk. I never disgusted myself when I rail at, what I perceive as pussies. I disgust myself when I'm not being my genuine self............
I went against who I am in that marriage. I compromised myself.
I made parallels to being feminized.......
I love females. I love feminine females.
It is a polar opposite to who I want to be. It is a comparison to something I never wanted to be and something I never saw me being..........
I explain myself because I'm on this site.\
Never wanted to be a female. Never wanted to compromise..... Never wanted to be pissed on by the people I love.
Always wanted to be the big shouldered, jackass bullrider, John Wayne @$$hole........ I thought everybody understood me.
Straight up cowboy. Honestly don't hate anybody. You all got your reasons
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I'm not society.
I don't understand.......
Help me understand. I don't get it. I don't like it...... I don't expect you to understand me.
Help me understand what drives people............
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I'm going to help you understand what it is to be "cowboy".....
You don't ,
make quick judgements, you don't persecute a person on sight, you observe that persons predicament and weigh it accordingly...........
Your thoughtful and discerning.
That is cowboy.............
Ya'all thimkin.......... rugged was unreasonable....... @$$hole to everybody.........
Ya'all knew where I was coming from.... drunk and angry..... Maybe you didn't get drunk maybe you didn't get angry.
I'm a straight up cowboy. I'm living every emotion out of this life. Love to outrage. I hold nothing back. I hold nothing from myself.......
Yeah. I want to get better. I will not hold a thing against myself....... I want to experience it. all of it
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A cowboy walks into situations that make people duck............. cowboy says they are out of line.
Cowboy looks at a situation that looks amazingly complicated, asks. "Is this a big deal?"
were simple. don't pretend to be otherwise................
Maybe,,,,,,,,,, your complicated lives could be simplified........
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naw,
I'm not what you saw. I'm not what you think I am. I wanna thank you. You helped more than you will ever know.
Love all you all,
rugged
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other thing about a cowboy........
he got his ass kicked by horses. bulls. men and women...............
you cant be tough until you got you ass kicked by everybody.
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Great posts rugged. Vulnerable and raw... Deep. Thats what it takes to get through this. Keeping it real with yourself and owning it. It sounds like you have a very clear understanding of who you are and who you want to be going forward! Keep being that man and refining as needed along the way. Its good to question everything. I know i held on to lots of beliefs formed in my youth that no longer serve me so I simply let them go.
As for "what drives people?" The simplest answer to that I have found is this. Everything we do is to avoid pain or seel pleasure. Like you said, cowboys look at something complicated and simplify it. This answer, at least to me, is very simple and honest.
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believe it or not. I live in a cabin and I was snowed in last night. Just me and a 1.75 of Jim Beam. Jim said............. pop this cork and make an a$$ out of yourself on HS.
I'm good at taking orders.
I fancy myself as a cowboy....... well. If I had some horses. I would have gotten drunk and told them what I told you. They would understand.
But. Thanksgiving is near. And. It appears that I am going to stay drunk for a couple of months.
Love you all.
I'll check in after Easter
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Here's hoping you don't stay drunk for the entire next two months, not sure how that would benefit you, but hell, you a grown man, so fill your boots.
All this soul searching is a good thing. I imagine you figure you are being HONEST with yourself, not sure about that though, as it really is hard to be as honest as we think we are. The ONLY thing I would suggest you might consider doing is to break your contemplations down into 3 pieces.
1) Figuring out yourself. Where you were, how you got here and where you want to go? So that's 3 more places to go on the first part.
2) Figuring out your WIFE/partner! A lot more "surmising" with that, because seriously, we are not able to actually get into each others heads, that being said though, we can evaluate what all we THOUGH we saw of our partner throughout our marriage. Again, break it down into the 3 parts. Where were you in this relationship with you wife, how did you get here with her and where do you want to go?
3) Figuring out your MARRIAGE! A bit more complex, without a doubt because so much of our attitude/behavior/performance is based on what we saw around us. Starting from Leave it to Beaver (if you are that old) right to the more recent programs such as Desperate Housewives. Everything in between, what was our parents/grandparents/siblings/friends marriages like, etc. This is an interesting exercise, well worth looking at very closely. Surprising what you will find.
This seems like a lot, but seeing as you are planning on being drunk for the next couple of months you might as well have some food for thought. The really crazy part though, when you figure you have it all FIGURED... go back and look again. The damn terrain just keeps on changing. Lot's of us was my own ridiculous EXPECTATIONS... some was stuff I had EVERY reason to believe I should be able to expect and others... somewhere in between. The in between one's are the tricky parts.
Good to hear from Ruggedendurance, you always spice things up when you decide to honour us with your presence.
Hugs Stayed
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If I had some horses. I would have gotten drunk and told them what I told you. They would understand.
But. Thanksgiving is near. And. It appears that I am going to stay drunk for a couple of months.
Hey Rugged - I know you still don't think much of me and I am not sure about whether you are
serious about all the drinking but personally I think
that if you are serious it is something you should really think about.
I stopped drinking sometime in my 20's.
Never liked the feel of the next day.
Good luck - Cowboy!
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RE I'm not sure why you feel the need to punish yourself the way you do. Jim Beam isn't a friend of yours. He might numb the pain for a while but when you wake up..the pain is still there and you just feel like $h!te.
I know I'm being simplistic and what you are dealing with is more complicated than that.
This is a really good discussion thread and it would be a shame if you didn't stay involved with it.
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Ruggedendurance,
I love nice guys and always have. I just seemed to pick really screwed up men with FOO issues. This is your W's MLC. It sounds like you are a great husband. Own that. I can honestly say I do not like overly macho men. They tend to lack the ability to be romantic, emotionally intimate, and nurturing. I doubt H and I will ever get back together, so all I can say is the next man MUST have certain qualities that are deal breakers. I will not settle for anything less.
I made a long list of everything I wanted and needed in a partner and here are some of those qualities: ability to embrace and show emotional intimacy, be 100% honest, romantic, friendly and pleasant, respectful, selfless, faithful, intelligent (or at least have the ability to hold an intelligent conversation), take care of his body (doesn't have to be a body builder, but at least try to be in shape and eat right), finds me desirable (my H withheld compliments, love, affection, sex for 2 years pre-BD), embraces and accepts my children, likes animals, spiritual, and willing to work on relationship issues (H did not believe in therapy, discussing marital problems, or utilizing our spiritual program).
H meets maybe 2 of these qualities. He's so far away from my list of an ideal partner I no longer find him appealing. Everyone's partner list is different. Have you thought of qualities you want and need in a partner? Would your W still have the qualities you desire on that list? Make the list without thinking of her.
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I agree with MoreWillBeRevealed
You mentioned you liked feminine females..what is your idea of a feminine female?
And I agree make the list excluding her.
I used to tell the ex he'd make a man out of me yet..
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Morewill: Lots of "nice guys" are only nice to get what they want. They havent learned to be assertive and honest in articulating their needs and getting them met. Not saying this is the case with the nice guys you have met but i think it does happen.
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I can honestly say all of my relationships were with "nice" people. They changed or I changed along the way. That is how nice became not nice. When I met my H, his most important thing was our recovery program. In the past few years and after his dad died, he became complacent in that program and MLC set in. He is no longer the truly spiritual person I fell in love with--H is not himself. I truly believe if he hit the ground running with recovery when his dad died, we wouldn't be in this mess. Instead, he chose to isolate and bury himself in denial, depression, and self-centeredness.
But, yes, many people act nice as a front in the beginning. I didn't have that experience. I'm pretty good at reading people and still would have married my first H, who became and angry jerk years later, and my current H, who was filled with spiritual recovery when we met. Neither were fronts or fakes. Life, chemical/hormonal imbalances, and spiritual isolation set in. I've met many men now who I clearly see as nice phoneys. It's that obvious. So, I don't believe we should live our lives bitter and closed-minded that all nice guys really aren't. Pay attention. Don't be naive. That's what we need to do. Anything can happen to anyone to make them change at any moment, especially when experiencing grief. How people choose to tackle life's tragedies and downfalls is what will define a person. It doesn't mean they aren't "nice" people.
Prior to my previous post, I hadn't read rugged's other posts. I was simply responding to the original question. Rugged, I think your isolation is wearing on you. Please get out of it and by all means do not use alcohol to numb or deal with your W's MLC. THAT is unattractive. I do not drink because I've been clean and sober 18 years. I would never date a man who finds solace in Jim Beam. I don't care if my partner has a drink occasionally, but it sounds like you are self-medicating. Possibly checking out a 12 step program would help.
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But do you really think you can make a list at this age and just go out and find it , just like that.
Date sites are full of middle aged people deciding they have a list and will except nothing less.
So disney lala land to me bc most of them have been single 10 or 15yrs and not getting any younger so it kinda boggles my mind and if you see 2nd marriage stats , ummmm ::) and middle age ain't exactly prime for finding perfect.
My dad always said nothing is ever perfect. Perfect doesn't exist.
And l've learned 100 times he was right , as he usually was about most things.
l looked for perfect in my prime but these days l know it's pretty unlikely l'd be lucky enough to find it again now at this age and stage in life .
So me , there's a few things yeah , but l also been with enough women to know that love can come in just about any combination too that will surprise the hell out of you every time.
Strangely though , even after everything , if l could l'd actually love someone just like my wife.
How fkd is that . She was a good person though , and an absolute one of a kind and sexy one. It just got messed up. life.
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No Hawk not make a list and find it..just make a list. :)
And I do agree about the isolation part Rugged ..you may be being too harsh with yourself....I know maybe the motivation isn't there but you isolating yourself may not help right now.
My father used to use the phrase " You have to get out and blow the stink off once a day".
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Oddly,
I haven't stayed drunk.
I assumed. I was going to handle the holidays the same way I did last year. To be honest. It was far better to be $hitfaced for all of it. Far better than the years before.
That being said.
I wonder why I am so fkn pissed all the time. I wonder why I want so badly to lash out........
I wonder why I am so disgusted with myself in the marriage.
You that know me, know my childhood family was as dysfunctional and violent as people live through. My plan. as a child. Was to get as far away from those monsters as I could. I was going to build a family that loved each other, protected each other, had each others backs......
I put my heart and soul into my wife and boys.... I wanted to build that perfect thing that I missed as a child.... I wanted a normal family.
Her MLC destroyed everything I worked for. I am angry as hell over that. I'm disillusioned. Love and a steady hand won't build what you want more than anything in the world......
I'm pissed at everything. Myself. Her MLC. The disgusting way the world works....
I know why I'm angry. I know why I drink.
I don't know how to fix this life I am living. I don't know how to have, what I always dreamed of.
Yeah. Pissed off. And amazingly sad
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So. Now who the h#ll am I? My identity was taken at that time. Now I'm............ what? Single. available. broken. despondent. confused...........
Yes. And capable of changing all of that and more. Who ARE you? What does RE like to do? (besides drink ;) ) Who were you BEFORE your marriage? Had you had the chance to figure out all of who you are then?
I know I process this madness like a bull in a china shop but I gotta face it. I'm not the most sophisticated guy on HS.
You let your pain out as anger and frustration. Processing this is tough. I think sometimes we have to come around and revisit it several times to actually get a grip on how to deal with it.
I adore women but. I never was a man w#ore so running to other women was never my bag. I am actually taking this time to figure things out.
Like I say. Not the best at explaining myself.
Thanks for the suggestions
If you do not love yourself before you search for a woman, you will only get women who want a man who does not love himself. You deserve better. Take that time to figure it out: Who YOU are, what YOU want, what YOU need to change. RE is a fine individual, although a little rambly when drunk. ;D
Whatever you do, don't chill that alcohol in the snow.
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I read a quote once that anger is sad's bodyguard. My childhood cannot compare to yours but I saw and participated in the crap that went on..from about 6 years old.
I am trying to look at it as all these experiences..not the people created who I am today. The coping skills were modeled by the "adults" in my life. Not that they are to blame so much. In my case I do feel they could have tried a bit harder to act like decent people. They never dealt with their issues either.
I agree with OffRoad If you do not accept and love yourself first you will either attract or find another woman of the same mindset.
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Rugged,
All I can say is it drove me nuts trying to convince my H to get help for his depression and other issues. Open your mind to therapy, AA, meds if needed, anything to better yourself and become happy. Staying stuck will only get worse. Your W will never like this version of you. Trust me. The primary reason I am so unattracted to my H is because how utterly screwed up he is and his unwillingness to do everything and anything to change that. PLEASE get help so you CAN be happy with or without your W.
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rugged,
You have a LOT of hurt to work through. A LOT! You have been dealt a dirty hand.
When people hurt they lash out in anger. It's so normal.
I wish I had the right words for you. Something, anything that would help, but I don't. I just care.
Hopefully one day you find something that can help take all this pain away. You deserve better.
I know Mr. Beam is not going to be that something.
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I think it's marvelous that you are admitting, owning, seeing your anger. That's half the battle. I think you will eventually get to the point where you will SEE that your anger is killing your soul. It sounds to me like you were/are a loving, caring guy, with a very soft heart. Sadly, raised in a family that you describe as dysfunctional and violent. You SHOULD be proud of yourself, because you are not a dysfunctional, violent person, if you were, you wouldn't RECOGNIZE the things you do about yourself now.
I think you have to allow yourself to be angry. Damn good and angry. I know I was. After we reconnected I found myself so bloody pi$$ed off I could hardly stand to be near my h. I was pi$$ed that he had put us through this. I was pi$$ed that I felt like I MIGHT be setting a very bad precedence for my daughters and even my sons. I feared that my son's might think it was ok for a man to behave like my h did... and that of course their wives/partner would take them back. I was afraid my daughters would think THEY SHOULD TOLERATE such abuse. Most of all, I was pi$$ed that I had to DEAL with my ANGER!
You will be ok Rugged... trust me. The fact that you are talking about your anger... you are going to be just fine. Be kind to yourself RuggedEndurance.
Hugs Stayed
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I'm positive that my anger is out of frustration.
I had no idea that a person could/would start laying the groundwork for a MLC for a few years before she actually left.
She told everyone that would listen, about how $hitty her marriage was. How difficult is was to live with me.
I knew she was unhappy. She couldn't hide her depression from me....
I didn't realize she was secretly destroying me.
When she finally pulled out and I found out about her fat boyfriend..... She quickly got a restraining order.
I did send her an e-mail imploring her to pull her head out of her a$$.. That was good for a 3day stay in county.
She made sure I had no options. No way to retaliate in any manner...
So my anger stems from my amazing frustration at this crisis. Stems from the fact that I have no recourse.
How have I fought it? I sat quiet. If they wanted their space...... I left them all alone. I went for a year and a half without talking to the oldest s. For 6months last year, I hadn't talked to my younger son.
It has been 4full years since I talked to any member of her family. A family that I had been extremely close to.. She took all of our friends with her.
Silence...... the only weapon I have.
So. I've had my a$$ kicked from pillar to post. and I have to sit quietly and take it...
It is the hardest thing I've ever had to do.
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I know !! He told our kids he was going to divorce me in a year..he waited two months.
You ought to see what he traded me in for..BD then D. Then I'm stupid enough to go back! :o
The last encounter with the ex sent me to the hospital and I couldn't even have him arrested!! Frustrated?? Pissed off ?? You damn right I was. >:(
Then I spend the last three years trying to heal from trauma and triggers.
Then my two girls I gave birth to I spent 20 plus years loving, emotionally supporting, hugging, home schooled, dedicated my life to ( I did everything for them that wasn't done for me by the mother I had) turned on me after I told them the truth about what happened.. :o
I stood up for and defended myself and now they have not contacted me at all in 3 years.. And I have no way to contact them..frustrated??..uhmmm you might say so. >:(
You gotta burn it off somehow RE. You can't bottle it all up or you are going to have serious health issues.
I screamed and yelled my way through the first year. I had a really good friend who listened and just let me rant..I ranted here on HS..I ranted driving in my car..wherever I could get rid of it and I cried A LOT.
NOW the only thing I can be is a role model for my kids and pray they do not get involved with some kind of abusive man.
His mother lived across the yard from us. I was 28 years in that family and I have not spoken to her in four years. I always said if I could have picked a mother it would have been her I loved her that much.
I live within a 10 minute walk of the house the ex lives in with my youngest. I threatened to have him arrested. That's the only reason he has stayed away from me. I have barely seen hide nor hair of him.
This is the single most hardest thing I've done too ..just sit back and have to take it.I did very little..I was triggered by a few things that happened so at one point I sent a small note to his mother to tell her to put the divorce in HER family history and enter my last name as my maiden name.
It's humbled me I can tell you because of all of it I ended up homeless at one point and it was due to abuse. I was thankful I thought of living in the shed I have..did it look crazy to other people? I'm sure it did. I finally felt safe. Made perfect sense to me.
I've ended up grateful for every single thing. I deserve peace and no drama after what I have either been through as an adult or had to put up with as a child.
I have TOTAL NC with my own children because I have no choice and I haven't had a choice since this started back in 2010. This was born of self preservation. I have had enough abuse. I can only truly hope they are happy without me in their life.
That your wife took all your friends is telling. That's what self centered people do. If they are only listening to her side of the story you need different friends.
Is there anyone in your family that you have any kind of relationship with?..I know it was extremely dysfunctional.
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I dunno about the booze.
Other than the madness last winter. I don't overuse it. Sometimes. I get so destroyed by it, all of the pain leaks out...... It's the only way I can put it.
And actually. The silence is working. My boys and I have a good relationship now. We talk regularly. We do things together. I'm allowed to connect with my grandchildren.
I am not invited to any family gatherings......... My grandson was baptized today. I wasn't invited. I saw a bunch of pictures on FB. The little woman was in some of them. She looks like she lost a bunch of weight, too fast....... Her eyes look like she cries all the time. She looks way older than me........
It is just sometimes...... It washes over me and I get rid of it the same way.
Then. I start to regroup and I see pictures of her looking amazingly miserable. I guess. There is a balance to all of this.
And no. I want nothing to do with anyone I grew up with........
I guess. I'm going to hold my course. If people want to be a part of my life. They can make an effort.
I never drove them away. I'm not going to beg them to come back.
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Rugged,
First, your life is only as empty as you choose to leave it, and alcoholism is a guaranteed formula for an empty life. You are being tested, my friend. In This hell you're walking thru staying numb ironically only makes it worse. This hell will teach you more about yourself than all the good years put together, if you are ready to learn.
Second, Life isn't fire trucking fair. Despite your intentions to right the wrongs in your childhood, and the priorities you made, your life took a different path. No amount of anger or self destruction will change that.
Finally, The stages of grief are well understood and you aren't the first to get stuck in anger and denial. I've seen others get stuck there. It is not a healthy place to stay for long.
I encourage you to Keep processing but remember, you won't rationalize your way to acceptance. You can't get numb and forget it. You get there when your ready to understand that it may not be logical or reasonable. It just IS what it IS.
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I agree with everything Elray said except for the last phrase..It is what YOU make it . I understand "it is what it is" being used as a phrase for acceptance. But for yourself it can be a positive healthier version of you.
That's wonderful you can spend time and do things with and talk with your kids. Focus on what you do have instead of what you don't.
I guess. I'm going to hold my course. If people want to be a part of my life. They can make an effort.
I never drove them away. I'm not going to beg them to come back.
That works..and that will give you what you need to work on you. Then YOU get to decide who's a part of your life.
And you might want to not look at Facebook pages that trigger you or make you feel even sadder.
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I know !! He told our kids he was going to divorce me in a year..he waited two months.
You ought to see what he traded me in for..BD then D. Then I'm stupid enough to go back! :o
The last encounter with the ex sent me to the hospital and I couldn't even have him arrested!! Frustrated?? Pissed off ?? You damn right I was. >:(
Then I spend the last three years trying to heal from trauma and triggers.
Then my two girls I gave birth to I spent 20 plus years loving, emotionally supporting, hugging, home schooled, dedicated my life to ( I did everything for them that wasn't done for me by the mother I had) turned on me after I told them the truth about what happened.. :o
I stood up for and defended myself and now they have not contacted me at all in 3 years.. And I have no way to contact them..frustrated??..uhmmm you might say so. >:(
You gotta burn it off somehow RE. You can't bottle it all up or you are going to have serious health issues.
So sorry for everything you've been through in it., really rough stuff.
Hope the truth comes out for you one day and your girls and you are together again.
And that somehow some good comes out of this or it leads you to somewhere better in life.
Just never do know ,in ways it has for me already ,mind you any of that could blow up in my face too bc now we know that anything is possible buttttt, see what happens and good luck.
And the same to you RE and personally l believe it's really important to lighten up on yourself . You know , as people here have said to me 100 times . l didn't walk away , l wanted to stand and fight for our family even if l wasn't the perfect h in our later years . At the end of the day ,l was the one still standing.
Ya gotta let this stuff work through mate , at least that's what worked for me.
Edit - Fix quote brackets - OP
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Thanks Hawk..I've had to turn my thinking around to I might be happier without them. I simply will not send a message that what happened to me is ok..as women. The exow is insignificant compared to possibly losing your life. If my head had hit harder on the pavement I wouldn't be here typing this.
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Thanks Hawk..I've had to turn my thinking around to I might be happier without them. I simply will not send a message that what happened to me is ok..as women. The exow is insignificant compared to possibly losing your life. If my head had hit harder on the pavement I wouldn't be here typing this.
Ahh no worries but sh2t , rough stuff in it. l'm feeling like your girls are gonna see the light one day though , and you'll be together again.
Kids make a lot of bad calls about parents sometimes , l know l did. Weird , one day though l just woke up and realized all of a sudden just how wrong l got it and mistook things.
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Well if all they want to do is believe the lies they are being told. God bless them. I'm losing the need to explain anything to them.
I put up with his abuse long enough. He sold crazy to them..I'm not crazy. I was being abused.
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How does staying angry serve you? That is the question that helped me move through that stage. Make it about you and what is best for your future.
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I guess it helps in detachment. I was stuck there for a very long time.
I'm working on forgetting about the entire mess but not forgetting what it taught me. I do not want to make the same mistakes again. It hurts too much. Anger is a necessary thing in the grieving process. I underwent hypnosis and it helped with the grief.
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How do you guys handle the manic episodes/rants?
When do these stop? After 1 year, 18 months, 2 years?
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How do you guys handle the manic episodes/rants?
When do these stop? After 1 year, 18 months, 2 years?
From them or our own?
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from the MLCer, my H will be calm but keeps his distance, barely any contact except to see the kids. Usually after a period of more than normal behavior (i.e. Taking the kids out more often than usual) comes angry rants via text messages and pushing for the divorce to be final
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Rugged,
You keep making excuses for your behavior and reactions. You are stuck in victim mode. It's time to get outside help for this. You say, "I did this, but..." You won't start healing as long as you are stuck. Please have an open mind and get help. Stop focusing on her. Live your life.
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In It, I disagree. Anger keeps us very much attached to the situation.
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morewillbe,
You are correct. I am stuck.
I have long periods where things seem to be okay. It appears that I have enough things going for me. I feel good about myself.
Then it gets to this time of year.
Just like the baptism I wasn't invited to. I will be spending all of the holidays on my own again this year. The big difference being. At least I will get a phone call. Or I can call one of my boys.
Not totally stuck. Not living life wide open either
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I think this time of year is very hard on a lot people. You're not alone.
It's supposed to be a festive "family" time. Not the case for many.
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How do you guys handle the manic episodes/rants?
When do these stop? After 1 year, 18 months, 2 years?
I think anywhere from 6 months to two years to never.
We can not control them, best to detach and let them rant and rave.
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R- seems to me that you aren't really stuck as much as cycling. Which is normal especially around the holidays.
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D- I respect your opinion. I don't claim sainthood.
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I've never been a "fake it till you make it" kind of guy. If I'm pissed, I'm pissed. If somebody does me an injustice, I have to rail against it. If someone does something kind, I need to acknowledge that also.
I guess. I react more than I think.
So. I actually put some thought into my actions..... Why do I need to get amazingly drunk to get rid of the pain? What exactly is causing all of the pain? My family? Her crisis? The loss of all family activities during the holidays?
Yup, all of those. But there is one that is worse than the others.
When I feel close to giving up on her........ when I desperately want to turn my back and start a new life with someone else..........
That is the most painful thing that washes over me.
To give up on my dream of a family...... My family.
With the woman that I spent 30yrs with. Natural mom and dad, grandma and grandpa.......
I get into my own head and I see no way for her to be a human being...... I see pictures of a wrinkled bag of venomous skin and I am sickened by her.
I got on this site because it offered hope. Hope that these deranged pieces of $hit can somehow snap out of it. Somehow be as sickened by their behavior as I am. Then. Make as large an effort to fix it as they did to wreck it.
While I'm at it. I'm not so sure that all of the people on this site are being honest with themselves. I hear the rhetoric on here and it sounds phony to me. All of the people on here, that seem to have all the answers. All they do is recycle the same phrases over and over. The same mantra.
If that mantra fixed anything. Wouldn't you all have lives outside of HS?
That is what I am hoping for myself. A family to take up all of my time.
My dream is to check into HS once a year. Around the holidays and tell people that this crisis doesn't go on forever. It just seems like it. Hang in there if you want to. This can turn out amazingly well...........
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This is just my two cents, for those dealing with anger and needing to detach..
It is hard, having known your spouse and quite possibly the issues they faced in their past that is contributing to or causing the MLC, to want to let go of them.
The reality is though, in the course of the MLC, they have one foot in and one foot out of the marriage. If you had just met this person, would you let them treat you the way they do? Of course not. You too need to have one foot in and foot out and you need to put more weight on the latter.
Use that anger and all of that hurt and channel it through faith, faith in yourself, God, your friends, your family, that you will get through this with their help, and live like they aren't coming back. If they don't make amends, do you want them back? No, so start building that life now. If they can fix themselves, they can come with. If not, who needs 'em at that point?
The scariest thing is facing the unknown and having to rebuild. The only thing that helps make the unfamiliar familiar is time and that's something we keep saying here over and over.
Just keep in mind they did things to you that you wouldn't accept in a total stranger. Yes be ready to forgive one day, but also be ready to walk away from them like you would that stranger.
That's the key to GAL.
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I can see how you might think many of the people in here are disingenuous! Repeating the same mantra! Questioning why oldies are still hanging around such a depressing place, if they are healed or reconciled. I don't know why, morbid curiosity maybe? It really does HURT less with time. None of us enjoy seeing the raw pain of the newbies, something about that, that never is totally forgotten. Pity, if there is one thing all of us would love to forget, it would be that.
Personally, I have the time. There are worse things I could be doing... but you certainly are right to question us about it. I am constantly questioning myself, too. I do remember though, how I would sign onto my support group way back when this happened, if nobody was there, omg, I wanted to slit my wrists. If somebody was there and would chat with me... the relief was intense. I didn't care who it was. I didn't care if it was one of the "kick his ass to the curb" types, or just hang in there or heck, let's pray together. I just didn't care. There was another human being somewhere on this planet that was there and they knew what I was feeling. There is no way of expressing my gratitude, for their presence.
I wish for everybody to be healed. To resume living their lives well. To place this behind them, leaving the bitterness and sadness with it.
InIt, your advise has been amazing. You have come a long way my friend. You were so terribly angry and so hurt. It is lovely seeing you calmer and settled.
hugs Stayed
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Thanks Stayed I was very fortunate I had all of you who put up with me. :'( :'(
It's taken a lot of posts and educating myself. I just would like whatever I might say to someone maybe save them from the pain I have been through. I did so much damage to myself in so many ways. And most of it I did thinking I could have my family back. That wasn't to be.
It makes me so sad to see others hurting and in so much pain.
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You were worth it! You MATTERED to us! You are a success story. :)
Proud of you!
There lies one of the reason's we remain. You matter!
Hugs Stayed
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We all do Stayed we all matter. We have to treat ourselves like we do!
And you are the other end of the success story..PROOF that by some twist of fate or divine intervention someone does snap out of it and realize what they have to lose.
We teach people how to treat us and I will defend forever that IF in this madness of whatever this is you do not go NC right off the bat you may do more damage to yourself than is necessary.
You have to put you first. Even before the kids because if you don't and they need you how in hell are you going to be there for them?? A very foreign concept to me.
You have to believe in yourself and a higher power if that comforts you..Being scared to death and doing it anyway. Courage is fear that has said it's prayers. I still have a lot to work through..trust and rejection issues. I know what I've been through..I'll figure those out to.
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l think l'm done too, then it comes back and you realize your not quite there yet.
or some more $h!te happens and this is the only place that will understand, listen , offer some help. You have friends here that have all been on this hell ride with each other for each other,
l come and go lately, less and less, spats, got some great things happening in new life now , but the old life is still in there, it's not quite washed away yet.
For me this place is also my therapy , and l guess personally l'm just not quite ready to go it alone yet
Who else understands where we've been , everyone else thinks we're mad. move the fk on , get a life , forget the b@tch .
We,ll , we're working on it and we're doing pretty good to my mind.
But me l'm proud of the fact though that unlike most of the shallow throw away society these days , l don't take this stuff lightly or just up and jump on the next warm body 6mths after losing my family.
Even though actually , that might've been the smartest thing to do considering the way we were treated actually, dunno.
But l can go weeks without even thinking about w these days, l can be with somebody else now and not think about w these days too, so whatever l'm doing personally and however long it's taking , for myself l know it's working and l am getting there, slowly but surely and in a way that is working for me personally.
At least l think it is.
l often wonder if l shoulda done this, coulda done that, shoulda jumped her bones, who knows. But l do know l'm getting there and to me that's the key for everyone , to do whatever works for you.
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Good for you! You are right Hawk..we are doing pretty damn good!
.And thats right like Stayed said this is where someone understands.
I moved into a relationship pretty quickly after my first divorce in my 20's and got hurt really bad again in another relationship.
Then married again in on a rebound from that..that again ended in divorce. Band aid on a hemorrage thing. There was no children involved so I handled the pain differently.
Go SLOW.
This has got to be something you heal from the inside-out.
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This is a really interesting discussion, a lot of good information though I came to it a bit late I think.
Like Hawk, my time lately on HS has been sporadic but I am glad that I found it today. I agree that the LBS goes through the stages of grief cycling between the different stages. For each person it takes what it takes, there is no right or wrong amount of time for any of the stages and many are visited over again and not necessarily in the given order.
For a long time I fought the anger stage, for a variety of reasons. In the end I guess I was hoping to avoid that stage as much as possible. Anger is a secondary emotion, while it’s a natural part of being human, generally there is an underlying emotion or combination of emotions that feed the anger. Not only does the anger have to be dealt with but whatever is underlying it needs to dealt with as well. I think that is where a lot of people get stuck, dealing with the underlying emotion that is causing the anger, those emotions are uncomfortable and make us feel vulnerable or helpless. It's easier, for some, to shift into the anger mode because it can be a means of creating a sense of control or power.
I am slowly learning that it’s okay to be angry, it’s not the anger that is bad it’s what I choose to do with that anger that is either good or bad. But like stayed and many others have said, I come here because here people understand, they understand when I don’t. They understand like no one else can that hasn’t been through it.
Rugged – It’s not fair, it will never be fair. No matter how much logic we try to apply to it the unfairness will never change. Like you, I tried to build the life and family I didn’t have as a child only to have it all blown up around me and have the person I loved betray me in the worst possible way. But as OP and many others, Stayed, Medusa, UM .. too many to name.. have all said.. it’s not about us. It’s not something we did right or wrong this is something in them that they have to deal with, we can’t help them and we can’t fix them. Your wife has to find her own way just as you have to find yours. Look at yourself, if there are things there you aren’t happy with change them, if you are happy with who you are then hold you head up and move forward into the life you want.
The things we focus on are the things that grow. This certainly isn’t the life I would have chosen but it is the only one I have. When I first began this unwanted journey, I didn’t think I would make it, didn’t know if I could survive it. But two years into it, things look much different than they did in the beginning. Who I am now is not who I was then. Given a choice I would have picked just about any other way to learn the lessons I have but I wasn't given a choice but hopefully I am making the best out of what I was given.
It’s all about Time.. and what we do with the time that is given to us.
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Stayed,
I personally want to thank you and any one who hangs around, for free, to help others out. You're a blessing unto yourself, a true angel, all of you. Do not underestimate the comfort you give others. I've never seen, nor been so thankful before for a place like this.
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I agree with you gman! Stayed and everyone else who sticks around are very special people. I give thanks as well!
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I agree with you gman! Stayed and everyone else who sticks around are very special people. I give thanks as well!
Yes, thank you!
I feel like that is a good part of this life we never wanted. The gift part. To have empathy for the others coming after us, and to be able to share in some way in their healing. I'm new in this, but have had a few people come to me in real life to ask me questions as they are struggling through some of the same things that they see me dealing with.
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Stayed,
I personally want to thank you and any one who hangs around, for free, to help others out. You're a blessing unto yourself, a true angel, all of you. Do not underestimate the comfort you give others. I've never seen, nor been so thankful before for a place like this.
This is called Paying it FORWARD, as their is NO COST to the users of this site,
we ask that all users help to PAY the service forward to others that come after us.
Thank you! :) :) :)
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Me either gman I'm so thankful for the forum.and the people who just let me rant...when I first started posting here for myself 3 years ago ( I posted for the end of the end of the marriage in 2010-2011)
When I returned here..I thought ....This isn't ever going to work. :-\. I'm WAY too firetrucking angry to have this help me. >:( Just typing it out??? Using these little emoticons? Seriously? But it did and it does. I didn't just post on the site exclusively..as I mentioned earlier I had other outlets.
I did finally have to admit I was stuck in anger stage of grief and find some other way to deal with it. It was more the observation of the friend I mentioned before. She witnessed most of the anger. I went to a DV support group..that wasn't it. I called grief counselors they didn't return my call.
I have a cousins who's a psychology professor who helped a lot..then I had trust issues start and I stopped confiding so much in her.
I did get to tell the story to a retired BCI investigator and he finished parts of my story before I could!
He started talking to me and telling me stories of his years on the job so I thought "What the hell lets see what he thinks of this"
His wife was shopping in the store I work at and when he was done asking me questions she returned to the counter and she asked him what was going on and he said " He knocked her down in the driveway" Someone believed me. Knew I was telling the truth. Someone who had a huge amount of experience. I felt validated.
But it wasn't enough..so I underwent hypnosis and I wish I could afford more of it.
RE..people use different things to cope..drugs, alcohol, sex, food, exercise,retail therapy, any extreme of something whatever seems to work to get through the pain. I know I used alcohol for a while with other relationships that ended. I know I was trying to numb myself and it made me feel an attitude like "Who gives a $h!te? I don't need them"
I know I tried to address my pain through a drunken stupor to other friends. I'd wake up in the morning and not remember what I said. I think booze gets in the way of the brains being able to process what is being felt. At the same time it loosened those inhibitions to express myself. But still left me feeling something was unresolved.
We are all doing the best we can..and people do care RE. Some times it doesn't feel like they do. Self destructive behavior isn't going to be the answer.
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I'm sure you are aware that I have my own way of doing things.
The time I've spent on HS was therapeutic. You've all been helpful and I think you are all good people.
In spite of what I have said while drunk.........
I do feel that I've gotten my bearings straight. I'm comfortable with the course I'm taking.
If I come up with anything that may be worth a $hit. I'll fill you in.
Thanks for everything
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;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
ok..see ya
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Your own way is always the best!
Until the next time...
hugs Stayed
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Let's face it. Cyber friends.
HS is cyber friends.
I learned something about me.
It doesn't matter to me. What people think.
I can love you and be distant at the same time. You don't have to share every emotion, thought that I have.
I'm separate.... My situation is different from yours because.
I actually value my take, on my situation, more than I value your take on my situation.
We can lose ourselves in this. Don't lose yourself.
Make those f#ckers pay for what they did to us........
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I made a move. Satan posted up. Looked me in the eye.
Satan backed down...
He is a liar and a coward
Satan is terrified of a drunk. Terrified of the weakest of us all.
firetruck him and the horse he rode in.........
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Yep tough day today..
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none of you are individuals.
You are a product of this sight...
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none of you are individuals.
You are a product of this sight...
You lash out at us, the way your WIFE lashes out at you! Funny how often people do just exactly to others that have done them no harm, what is being done to themselves.
Hope it makes you feel better dear ruggedendurance! All of us have been where you are, most of us have done what we can to keep ourselves from where you choose to stay. So lash away my friend. Call us whatever you feel you must. Happy Thanksgiving and best of the season to you.
Hugs Stayed
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Ill call you out on this RE... Is this really the man you want to be? If so, awesome! If not, make some changes brother. How is staying angry serving you? Cuz your comments and attitude towards people here arent hurting anyone. What are you getting out of lashing out at the very community you turn to for support? You say "none of you are individuals"... People are our mirrors my man, you only recognize in others what you see in yourself. Time to focus on you bro.
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I'd call you out on it too, you know nothing about me and you'd fall of your horse if you did know some things.
Your looking in the wrong place RE, time to take a good look in that mirror .