Midlife Crisis: Support for Left Behind Spouses
Archives => Archived Topics => Topic started by: Acorn on November 27, 2019, 11:41:00 AM
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Here you go, folks!
Back to the topic of the MLC lens. I hope. :D
Please kindly share your thoughts.
https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=11236.0
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But what if the bet placed is your family home, your retirement savings, the kid's college fund?
I know too many LBSers who faired poorly because they felt certain that "their MLCer" was different, that "their MLCer would do no harm".
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If you are a newbie and think that because your MLCer has not filed for divorce you are "safe" for the time being - I would like to suggest you reconsider this.
Many LBSers on this site didn't have their MLCer file for years after BD - but eventually many of them did.
And by that point the MLCer had run up debt (Which in the USA is considered joint debt), spent thousands of dollars on the OW/OM, etc.
I absolutely agree with all of this, advice I got from early on (and I agree and do same) is no matter WHAT you want to do later (and you don't have to decide right now) immediately SECURE AND SEPARATE your finances, get a legal separation, agreement, separate assets and debts etc. It is not "love" to allow an out of control person to destroy your safety in any way (physical or financial).
And I believe most don't file for divorce immediately because they are running away and can't be bothered to finalize, not because they are conflicted. Or they are too stressed to face the work and its easier just to pretend you are divorced already. I know in my wife's mind (she said this to me) she had already "left me a long time ago" (which wasn't factually correct, but a rewriting). So from that you can see why bother to file for anything until you have to.
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I would like to bring Lawprofessor's comments forward to this thread because I think many of the points being replied to address her post.
Re: Seeing your situation through the MLC lens. Does it keep you stuck?
« Reply #116 on: Today at 08:13:17 AM »
Acorn I was putting together those same numbers.
However my count suggests there are only 11 deep purple posters as Sobeit has 2 threads. So fractionally lower results.
Also note that includes threads with a last posted date as far back as March 2017.
Then if we include the light purple I think there are 16 additional threads as well as Songanddances threads that she has since changed from light purple to the standard white if I remember correctly.
I'm well aware someone ::) will come along to note that not all those reconnecting or reconciled post for a variety of reasons that they will make guesses about.
Can you imagine the number of those there would have to be, to be statistically relevant?
Then there will be those who say well I know x who reconciled or I know of xs cousins father's neighbor who reconciled after x years.
Again that doesn't change the numbers with any statistical relevance.
Then there will be those who object arguing all this is taking away my hope as though anyone else is responsible for whether or not they chose to lose hope. Funnily enough some of these same will be the ones who recently posted in the last round asserting they don't want or need to be protected.
I would argue it's a win to divorce with grace. The site preaches that a return entails it's a whole new relationship. That seems infinitely more possible if one has divorced with grace rather than divorced with anger.
I still can't see how the reality of the situation is being considered a negative that somehow endangers the site and the message of the site.
If truth and reality can actually do that, the message and purpose of the site need to be reexamined in my opinion as I'm not interested in participating in selling snake oil to vulnerable and desperate souls.
As well, there is a gross overstepping going on when a site purposefully censors, refuses to allow discussion, or says well yes, but those people will figure that out sometime in the future, the information available to users because the site or its members fear it could impact their decisions and usage of the site. A message should have more to stand on then that. People are making decisions about their future and their lives based on purposefully incomplete information. That's not fair to them, it's simply wrong, and it's ethically and morally wrong. Yes, in my opinion.
Finally, you may note that this brings us back full circle to NYM questions/thoughts...
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My response to the original post topic:
The MLC lens: In time I think all of our answers to this question change or should redefine as we grow and heal. Those who's answers fail to adjust with time are those who are stuck and hindered by the MLC lens.
At first the MLC lens gave me an "explanation" of what was happening. Comparing the explanation to the reality kept me busy for a short time as I tested and tried it out to see if it fit.
However, I was not having a MLC so the MLC lens became of no use to me in helping me to heal, helping me to survive, to grow, and to thrive. The MLC lens is a made up construct that may be useful in the beginning but if one continues to look through it, one often times stays a codependent conflict avoidant train-wreck focusing on the MLCer rather than healing oneself. I chose to look through the windshield of the car I was driving rather than the windshield of a car careening down another path.
How would I define stuck all these years later?
Stuck is a level of emotional immaturity. It can be akin to a toddler having a tantrum on one end of the spectrum and on the other choosing to sit and wallow for a few days before one picks themselves up and moves forward.
Stuck is unhealthy. It's unhealthy for one's self and for those around the stuck person. When I started here, there were a group of really funny guys. One of them told me the story of why a crab fisherman doesn't have to cover his bucket of crabs. He sent me a cartoon of a courageous crab that wanted desperately to live. The crab fought herself out from under a pile of other crabs and was about to escape from the bucket when one of the first crabs that was caught, an older, slow moving crab that had been in the bucket for a long time, grabbed the younger crab and held on tightly to her so she was unable to escape the bucket, repeatedly trying to pull her down into the bucket with all the other crabs that were wallowing in the bottom of the bucket until she was exhausted. He said I had a choice, I could fight my way out or I could join the rest of the crabs in the bottom of the bucket and wallow in a self imposed hell.
Stuck is like a rotten vegetable or fruit in a drawer of the refrigerator. It infects the pieces surrounding it.
Stuck shrieks and yells about the unfairness of it all.
Stuck is an emotional vampire, a black hole sucking the life out of all those around her as she finds pleasure and company in the despair of others so that she is not alone.
Stuck feels great compassion and makes excuses for the MLCer but viciously attacks a fellow LBS who differs in opinion.
Stuck takes everything or anything personally.
Stuck lies and uses anything to keep her fellow crabs in the bucket.
Stuck is focused on control and keeping things status quo.
Stuck feeds depression great doses of pity.
Stuck is scared to be alone, scared to face her demons, and is angry with anyone who has faced their demons fearing she is judged by them.
Stuck takes no responsibility for her behavior. Someone is always provoking her, hurting her, attacking her, some reason to excuse her behavior.
Stuck arms herself with the cloak of a martyr and hopes all others will notice her sacrifices and praise her because she has not matured into developing her own identity.
Stuck is a teenager that talks behind others backs, afraid to have an intelligent and mature discussion because she is not confident enough in herself and her identity to be comfortable with others having a different opinion.
The propensity to be stuck is in anyone, LBS and MLCer. It is a also a choice we make. One can aspire to be Queen Crab of a very small pond or one can grow up and embrace life with the peace that comes with maturity but sadly not with always with age.
What is stuck truly?
Stuck is fear and depression and anger and guilt all wrapped in an emotionally immature person. It is ugly. It is everything our MLCer's struggle with and do battle with as they progress through this journey. But too many LBS'S refuse to do just what they hope and pray their MLCer will do.
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That’s too funny, Airmid!
I coped LP’s definition of ‘stuck’ and was just about to post it on the new thread, and behold, you have done it already.
Great minds, etc. :P
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If I may add to the list of ‘stuck’:
- stuck is refusing to see reality, stuck fast in fantasy mode
- stuck is inability to see the difference between fantasy and hope
I’m sure others have more to add.
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Acorn - I wish there was a "like" button - I would add it to your last post.
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If I may add to the list of ‘stuck’:
- stuck is refusing to see reality, stuck fast in fantasy mode
- stuck is inability to see the difference between fantasy and hope
I’m sure others have more to add.
- stuck is feeling like a victim of someone else's crisis
- stuck is focusing so much on what you've lost that you can't see what you might have
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I didn't come to this site looking for advice. I came to this site because I was trying to figure out what happened to my wife. The changes I saw in her simply didn't make sense. But I wasn't looking for advice. I simply needed to know what happened to her. Once I understood that I knew I was capable of deciding what to do without anyone else telling me.
Wonderful. As it should be. YOU get to make your own choice.
The support I received from people on this site was extremely helpful as I tried to deal with a situation that made no sense. The advice, though I'm sure well-intentioned, was often annoying. Being told to take my eyes off my wife and focus on myself when I was trying to figure out why my wife was doing what she was doing was not helpful.
Don't know what to say...
The reconciliation statistics are meaningless IMO. This may sound cold but if only 1 out of 1000 reconcile and that 1 is me then the other 999 don't matter. If I give up because I'm told chances of reconciliation are extremely low, then I become 1 of the 999 and that skews the statistics.
Again wonderful. But the way you stated this shows your bias. I could easily turn it around and say if you DID reconcile, then you skew the statistics. Not that there is anything wrong with your opinion. Its yours to have.
MLC lasts a very long time and is very hard on LBSes. The only real conclusion I feel I can draw, based on what I've learned from reading thousands of posts over the past 5 years, is that most LBSes give up long before their MLCer comes out of the tunnel. Posting statistics that state that only about .0025% of the members on this site have posted reconciliations threads will only increase the number of LBSes who give up, IMO.
I mentioned this earlier in the last thread. You might very well be right.
If you want some meaningful statistics, perhaps you should contact all LBSes who have been HS members for at least 10 years, get contact info from them for their MLCers, and then contact the MLCers and ask how many of them would have reconciled if they would have had that option. But the site hasn't been around long enough for that to work. So we're trying to assign meaning to statistics for a long term disorder from a site that has only been around for a short time and doesn't reflect the MLCers POV. Good luck with that!
Exactly. Thats NEVER going to happen. So we have to make do with the information we DO have available.
The next best thing might be to listen to what ex-MLCers have to say but they don't seem to last long on this site before the negative nellies drive them away. Most of them that I can recall seemed to have wanted to reconcile although several of them couldn't because the LBS had moved on.
Don't really have a comment for this one other than one could say we might learn quite a bit from the OW/OM that have joined the site in the past but have been run off as well.
We have an acronym in the data processing field, GIGO. Stands for Garbage In Garbage Out. RedStar is correct. The "data" you are processing to determine the odds of reconciliation occurring is useless, primarily because you aren't correcting for all of the LBSes who decide not to stand or who decide to quit standing.
Your opinion, not fact. It might be useless to YOU. Its not totally a scientific fact for sure, but as I said above its the best data that we can compile based upon the information we have available. Yes, the reasons could very well be MOST LBSes refuse to have the MLCer back. Still doesn't change the fact most don't come back.
Now that I feel that I have a pretty good idea what caused my wife's MLC, I figure the odds of her wanting to return are pretty good. Better than even. But I can't say that this applies to anybody else's situation. Everyone has to decide that for themselves and it's going to depend on the cause of the spouses "MLC".
EXACTLY, and that is a good thing. And I wish nothing but the best for you.
I figure my odds of reconciliation are still dependent on whether I'm willing to be there for my wife if she becomes ready to return. If I were more easily swayed by other people's opinions discussions like this one wouldn't help me to eventually reconcile as this discussion seems to be doing a great job of spreading doubt and killing hope.
Again, wonderful. Some people ARE easily swayed by other opinions and discussions. ESPECIALLY when they arrive so raw. Again I think it is IMPERATIVE that they be armed with the truth rather than hopeful thinking. Their very life or future could depend on it.
And nobody is killing hope. If that is how you choose to interpret this discussion, that is on you.
Quote from: Watcher on Today at 11:08:14 AM
In the United States only 0.5 percent of the population has run a marathon. ::) Those reconnection odds are slightly better. Just sayin. ;)
I've completed 6 marathons and I'm not done yet. Based on this comment I guess my odds of reconnecting are pretty good. Primarily because MLC truly is a marathon, not a sprint. LBSes who don't have the stamina to handle a marathon are going to continue to skew the reconciliation statistics, not because reconciliation couldn't have happened for them but because they chose to drop out of the race before it was over.
Quote from: Airmid on Today at 12:31:53 PM
Oooh watch out Morte.
Language like that will get you moderated or possibly banned!
This is creating an "unsafe environment" for the standers!!!
Inflammatory comments like this aren't helpful either.
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This seems like a "Mr. Gorbachev, Tear Down This Wall" moment.
Well I wore my MLC lens for 4 years. IDK. Being stuck meanwhile still being a responsible family man who was repeatedly thrown out of the house and still had 2 young son's to provide for while in exile. IDK. That's pretty hard to pull off however those were the cards I was dealt.
I wasn't listening to anyone during those 4 years because I knew what I needed to do for my 2 sons and her to an extent as I knew something was/is wrong with her. I didn't even listen to Thunder and she tried her best with me for years. :)
It's not an easy experience and it probably falls along the lines of accepting that the marriage ended. The MLC lens makes excuses and keeps hope alive. Yea and I put up with way more than I ever should have from her.
IDK, Ready2Transform made a comment to me last June and it finally stuck. What can I say ? I was a slow learner/listener. IDK, I think my heart finally accepted the end.
Now I'm just getting divorced. IDK what that means. Then I'm going to continue to live my life. That take one day at a time philosophy never ends I believe.
As for her, she is not my problem. I believe if she comes out of it one day she will seek me out to talk. In the meantime it's not going to prevent me from enjoying life.
I wasted too many years focused on her crisis. I think my MLC lens will remain off. ;D IDK, I pretty much just march to my own beat anyway. I generally like the forum and probably 96.5 percent of the people here at times.
Those are just my raw numbers btw as I have no empirical data to back them up. ::)
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I feel there is lack of perspectives on mlc that isn't filtered through the lens of the relationship with the lbs,this discussion included.
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This topic has really bothered me. If you're dealing with somebody who is going through an MLC, how can it be relevant to view it through any lens other than the MLC lens? If the MLC is ongoing, how could continuing to view the situation through the MLC lens mean that you're stuck? It's still an MLC.
Then I realized what my problem is. It's as if I left home and when I returned I found that a new family with different values had moved in. This is no longer a support site for people who are standing for their marriage. Even the tagline mentioning standing has been removed from the Banner. This site has become much like all of the other divorce sites. There is no longer anything special about it. The thing that made it unique, support for standers, has been discarded. I should have realized that when I read Airmid's derisive comment about standers on the first thread.
If you really want to be honest with newbies you should tell them to forget about reconciliation. That isn't what this forum is here for. The purpose of this forum is to help people transition to a new life without the MLCer.
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I feel there is lack of perspectives on mlc that isn't filtered through the lens of the relationship with the lbs,this discussion included.
It’s interesting, when my h showed signs of MLC and treated me horribly, I started off wanting to know everything about MLC and use it to explain away my h’s actions.
When my brother shows signs of MLC and treats me horribly, I immediately said let him go pound sand, if he wants his family back he’ll shape up, do the work and straighten himself out.
MLC was only a factor for me insofar as I needed a reason to believe my h would “wake up” and realize he didn’t actually want to throw me away like garbage.
My ego was not so invested with my brother, therefore his MLC didn’t help explain away his terrible behavior.
I only wish I could have been immediately detached with my h as I was with my brother. I can now watch my brother almost from a standpoint of research and really see how he’s moving through his MLC.
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That's a very interesting perspective NAS. You have a front row seat to this I would be interested to see how your brother ends up. I think the difference for me now is that I am letting the hurt and pain flow. I am not letting the fear control so much of my thoughts and maybe that is why I am changing my views. I guess I just wonder after reading this thread if I was told about the statistics or knot. Weather it would have made difference in me and my thought process.
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Father5, fwiw, I think you are going through the same grieving process we all did, where at first we all wanted to believe our spouse was different, MLC was temporary and our spouse would come through it and the whole nightmare would end.
Truth is, we don't know what will happen for any of us. But I think it's great that you are grieving (not bottling up your feelings) and that you can see the situation more clearly from your place of healing. You and your kids come first now.
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This topic has really bothered me. If you're dealing with somebody who is going through an MLC, how can it be relevant to view it through any lens other than the MLC lens? If the MLC is ongoing, how could continuing to view the situation through the MLC lens mean that you're stuck? It's still an MLC
Because they are going through an MLC but you aren't. Because treating them like an mlcer is much more stressful and unatural than just being the spouse that you have always been. I recently decided to treat my h as if he isn't in mlc, like he is normal. Let it be his problem if having a kind loving wife who treats him nicely and expects the same in return makes him uncomfortable. I am not doing anything wrong, am I? It is so much more relaxing.
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I tend to agree about that transitioning comment. I mentioned that to someone quite awhile ago myself. I don't see anything wrong with standing. Hence that's why I joined this forum however the tone has changed over the years.
Is everyone here financially protected ? IDK. I know I'm not. I have no advice for newbies. They have to believe what is right for their situation. I would never tell anyone not to stand.
When I say viewing things through the MLC lens I mean I've been making excuses for being physically assaulted. For being emotionally abused. Taken advantage of financially. Being dragged into court. Dealing with the police.
I have a real Monster of a crisis. The woman wants to destroy me and that's not just hyperbole.
So after the last discard and her taking me to court going on year #5 what recourse was I left with. Something had to change on my end. I had to stop treating her as MLC. The MLC labeling protects what this person has become. She is constantly in Monster. Some of us inherited really nasty violent MLCers. She is not the woman I married.
Now I'm divorcing her because 2 separate lawyers told me to protect myself. Logically I can still view her as being in a crisis for that is the truth.
She has to face consequences for her behavior now and I was enabling her myself by not holding her accountable and always chalking it up to MLC.
I'm getting a divorce. I don't feel that I need a label for myself. Standing/ not standing. I know I will be living. That's my goal. I know what I have to do. Again if she is ever to come out of her crisis then I am confident that she will seek me out to let me know.
If I had continued viewing it through the MLC lens then there never would have been any chance for a life for myself. She is an abuser and unfortunately I have to view her as such until the day comes when her actions say different.
Its nothing personal. I pray she will get help and recover one day. I'm still rooting for the woman as she is not my enemy.
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Watcher -
The theme of this thread (as I understand it) is not about standing or not standing.
It is about whether or not looking through the MLC lens keeps you stuck.
You can be divorced and still be "standing". There are people on here that are in exactly that position.
I think the point of discussion is - is your view of MLC hindering you in your personal growth?
And the other sideline discussion is - what defines stuck?
It is the view of a few posters that the odds or reconciliation are fractional.
Even if that is true - if you are a stander - it should have no impact on you - you know what you are standing for and the "odds" of outcome has nothing to do with it.
I want to make this point because I know there are some posters who would like to define this as an "anti-stander" thread - which it is not.
I agree with Lawprofessor when she states:
I still can't see how the reality of the situation [sic - considering the reconciliation rate is low] is being considered a negative that somehow endangers the site and the message of the site.
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Watcher you have no idea how relieved I am to see you post that.
Takes some of us quite a bit to see it's simply not worth our peace, our safety, our sanity, our lives and a whole lot of other things to finally say enough.
No one should be told to "hang in there" and go through what you did. Anyone who may have encouraged you to keep going or considered your thread anything positive, really wasn't reading what you were posting.
What you went through wasn't worth having an intact family. It's kind of one of the misleading things..these abusers seem to click all the boxes so it looks like an MLC. These types are lost to themselves. Looking for who they think it is safe to take their anger out on.
And an MLC or whatever this is is NO excuse for abuse.
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What has the reconciliation rate got to do with being stuck? Is the question now "Does the advice given here cause people to be stuck?" Or maybe "Does not knowing the reconciliation rate keep you stuck?" Maybe the question is "Does believing that your marriage might reconcile keep you stuck?"
Imo, looking through the MLC lens can help, hinder or both. It depends on what you do with that MLC lens. And for some it is a help, for some it was a help for whatever amount of time, for some it was a hindrance and for some it's still a hindrance. You can miss someone and not dwell on it. You can want someone back and not stop your life until they come back.
IMO, if you can't think of anything except your MLCer, you are stuck, even if you are standing, even if you still love them. Obsession isn't healthy for anyone.
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MB,
I understand what you are saying, and I know some others feel the same way.
Maybe this is a good time to reread what RCR said about standing.
https://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/stand_how-do-you-stand.html
https://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/stand_reasons-to-stand.html
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What has the reconciliation rate got to do with being stuck?
Imho bc we can create a logic chain from how we individually interpret our own MLC lens. Say MLC = temporary crisis = not real h/w = standing = return of MLCer to LBS. And what we believe about MLC and our spouse becomes a coping strategy so people can react with strong emotion if one bit is challenged? So, I might intend to have an unemotional exploration of reconciliation numbers on HS but how someone else hears it might seem like a threat to their own deep beliefs and coping strategy? Jmo.
I remember a time a while back when someone posted on my thread that they believed that RCR had said that vanishers are even less likely to return. And I felt very upset and responded a bit snippily as I recall. (Sorry to whoever the poster was) Now? I don't know if RCR said that. If she did, that's her opinion. She may be right, idk. But it no longer feels as if it is relevant to me in the way that it did then bc with time and events I have formed my own beliefs and assumptions....so I don't have an emotional reaction to it if that makes sense. The opinion doesn't feel like a threat. Nor does say a possibly less than 1% reconciliation recorded rate on HS although my senosation from obsessive archive reading at one stage (ha ha, you know some of you did that too lol) is that it might be a little higher in RL if you measure that as MLCers trying to return and LBS giving it a cautious go. Quite a few threads end with 'well, my h wants to come back so we are going to try'. But by quite a few, idk, that might bump 1% to 2% maybe? The simple truth is it is an unknowable figure....we can probably all agree that it is very low though and for a variety of reasons. Reading the debate, like Air, I was also reminded of my experience of cancer statistics. And that people react differently to them too.
Perhaps we don't all see the details of the MLC lens in the same way? Or we interpret it differently in our own situation? So some believe perhaps that stories of reconnection can narrow down the things an LBS can do to increase the odds of it; others think that nothing an LBS does makes much difference to that at all.
But I susoect that what you believe tends to shape your actions and therefore what you believe is part of getting stuck or not for most of us. And to be fair, probably shapes the advice or support you want to give on HS too.
I think the key to me getting myself unstuck....and how very stuck I was, like Queen of Stuck :)....was looking hard at what I believed, why and how it served me in the present moment. And changing some of what I believed and in other cases saying that I just didn't know so would act based on a best assessment from what I did know.
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If you really want to be honest with newbies you should tell them to forget about reconciliation. That isn't what this forum is here for. The purpose of this forum is to help people transition to a new life without the MLCer.
Brain, nobody is saying this. Nobody wants to tell anybody that they dont have a Chance of Reconciliation or that they shouldnt stand. Its just that the Facts should fairly be laid out on the table because unfortunately alot of LBS still believe that most, if not all will eventually come back if you just hang in there Long enough and sit it out. That simply isnt true and lets be honest with ourselves, most MLCers make it quite inpossible for us to sit it out as the Damage they cause is just too much to repair.
Why is the first Thread already been moved to the Archives? It took me quite some time to find it and catch up on the last 3-4 pages. This isnt the normal process so why is this Topic being treated differently? Its just a healthy discussion imho.
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Sorry, Whyus, I should have done it myself rather than relying on the mods.
Here is the link for anyone interested in the previous thread:
https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=11236.0
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Then if we include the light purple I think there are 16 additional threads as well as Songanddances threads that she has since changed from light purple to the standard white if I remember correctly.
No I haven't changed back to white at all. Still light purple and still reconnecting just not updated for some time.
In fact the figures are distorted as there are only 2010 people who have actually posted on this forum at all.
This means that there are at least 2500 members of whom we have no idea if they are active or not, white, light purple, dark purple or divorced. So as you can see it is not a case of 0.6% across the whole board of 4296 members.
As a further point, if we remove those posters who have only posted between 1 and 3 times since registering (and this does include going back to 2010) that takes us to 1650 active posters. 1500 of those 1650 have posted more than 5 times since registering and 1334 out of the 1650 have posted more than 10 times; 1248 15 posts or more and 1130 who have posted more than 20 times.
So the statistics about reconciliation odds on here changes upon the paremeters you give it. 28 (+Shantilly's lot) out of 1130 is different from 28+ out of 4296.
It's a bit like saying that out of the millions of car owners in the UK a certain percentage have accidents. Not all of those owners can drive and some owners may have more than one car. Equally there are many people out there who drive who do not own cars - they lease them or they are company cars.
Bear in mind too that MLC takes anything between 3 - 5 years for replay alone let alone the added time for liminality, limbo and reconnecting let alone reconciliation and rebuilding (so the whole process could take upto 8 or more years) and therefore, by those figures, this forum which started on 2010 and is 9 yrs on, statistically may have more reconnections and reconciliations pending.
It's all hypothetical of course but we cannot state that there is only a 0.6% of reconciliation based on this forum alone. Too many variables.
The threads list is of those who hold a current thread but there are quite a few including Stayed, STP etc who have reconciled who do not have an active thread or even an inactive thread. Not to mention Hyperglad and a few others who reconciled and who no longer post or visit here.
Shantilly's thread has at least 10 people who have reconnected but no longer post but most of those if memory serves me well have reconciled.
There are currently 11 active dark purple threads and 17 light purple threads including my own.
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Whyus,
After a thread is locked it is put in Archived, nothing has changed.
You can find the thread by the "new thread" link on the first page of the new thread.
It's put on every new thread so you can still go back and read it.
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I think we are getting a little TOO caught up in the numbers. I have to go back and agree with Redstar a bit...you just can't get accurate results. Too many factors going into it.
HOWEVER, no matter how you twist the numbers, I think its a fairly accurate statement to say that less MLCers reconcile than those that don't.
Sondanddance, not to nitpick, but STP has most DEFINITELY NOT reconciled. And he DOES maintain an active thread. But some may find its content a bit...unpleasant.
-T
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Terrified - thanks for that.
I deliberately got bound up in numbers because it is not productive to claim statistics when as you say there are too many factors and I wanted to show what those factors were and how they change. It was an interesting ,if not ,mind numbing exercise..... ;D ;D
Thanks for info on STP - perhaps he's the one that changed his icon and not me as Airmid thought. Even so it still makes no difference to my point.
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Even if those stats were 10% and backed up by scientific research, I would suppose that the same people would have the same reaction to those stats. Some people are threatened by those who don't get the same results they want or who need the validation of those who got the same results they want, and there are others who can look at them in a detached manner. No matter what the stats are as long as the prognosis looks bad overall, it will be the same.
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The MLC lens makes excuses and keeps hope alive.
In the meantime it's not going to prevent me from enjoying life.
I wasted too many years focused on her crisis.
…. and later...
The MLC labelling protects what this person has become.
I am enabling her myself by not holding her accountable and always chalking it up to MLC.
She is an abuser and unfortunately I have to vieew her as such until the day comes when her actions say different.
I think what Watcher said here is really important. The MLC lens can keep people stuck. Surrounded in rainbows and hope and dare I say a small amount of delusion at times. All your empathy and love and perseverance and determination are focused...on withstanding the MLC storm. If you are patient enough, if you are strong enough, if you are kind enough, if you smile and put up with enough... you will be rewarded. But really all those things should be focused back on yourself. Because in the end...reconciliation or moving on...the only person you will be left with is yourself. No matter what happens with your MLCer.
So yes if you let it...viewing it through an MLC lens can keep many people stuck.
As for
This topic has really bothered me. If you're dealing with somebody who is going through an MLC, how can it be relevant to view it through any lens other than the MLC lens? If the MLC is ongoing, how could continuing to view the situation through the MLC lens mean that you're stuck? It's still an MLC.
Then I realized what my problem is. It's as if I left home and when I returned I found that a new family with different values had moved in. This is no longer a support site for people who are standing for their marriage. Even the tagline mentioning standing has been removed from the Banner. This site has become much like all of the other divorce sites. There is no longer anything special about it. The thing that made it unique, support for standers, has been discarded. I should have realised that when I read Airmid's derisive comment about standers on the first thread.
If you really want to be honest with newbies you should tell them to forget about reconciliation. That isn't what this forum is here for. The purpose of this forum is to help people transition to a new life without the MLCer.
The part in italics feels almost like a virtual temper tantrum if I am honest. People are allowed to have different stances. They are allowed to feel differently, and even to change their mind when they get new information. Personally I think it is better to have more information available so that people can make an informed choice about their life.
Newbies should be allowed support, and hope...they should be allowed to feel that there is a chance their spouse can come through this, no matter how big or small...but they should also be given realistic information. On what their chances are so they can make logically informed decisions about their life.
As for the bold part none of us REALLY know what our spouse is going through. Sure they fit the lines of MLC, but some fit the lines of other things. We can't possibly know until ''it'' ends...assuming that ''it'' does end. So it can be HIGHLY relevant to look at our spouse through many different lenses. Only looking through it from one vantage point is not only silly but dangerous. If you have someone with bipolar and refuse to see the signs because it ''has to be MLC'' then you are doing a disservice to yourself. If your spouse has always been a cheater, and you decide to look at it through the MLC lens, well again..you are just setting yourself up to produce hope that it will end, when the reality is it is a pattern of behaviour you have seen before and maybe chose to overlook for love.
Imo, looking through the MLC lens can help, hinder or both. It depends on what you do with that MLC lens. And for some it is a help, for some it was a help for whatever amount of time, for some it was a hindrance and for some it's still a hindrance. You can miss someone and not dwell on it. You can want someone back and not stop your life until they come back.
IMO, if you can't think of anything except your MLCer, you are stuck, even if you are standing, even if you still love them. Obsession isn't healthy for anyone.
I agree with everything you said here Offroad.
Any information is only as valuable or powerful as we let it be. But without information you are ignorant and your choices are limited or removed.
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Beautiful post MB!
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I don’t mean to derail the topic, but as I read through all the various viewpoints one thing is very apparent: no matter who we are, no matter where in the process, and no matter how it all impacted us we ALL have a lens through which we view this entire experience. How can we not? So is the better question perhaps “is seeing your situation through your CURRENT lens keep you stuck?”
As to the MLC lens itself it can be deconstructed to whether we view our MLCers as good/bad, with empathy or anger, with boundaries or by completely acting like a parent/child relationship (allowing transgressions), as victim or in charge. I am sure there are other axis. Wouldn’t it better to consider whether each one of these dynamics is useful or keeps up stuck?
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So with that number I think it's .02 using the 1130 and 28? My math seems a bit rusty this morning.
Still a dismal figure no matter how you figure it. And so many of those are years and years ago, so much so that I'd say there are few around that remember them which is sad since I remember many of them. ::)
Setting numbers aside,
Most assuredly, there is nothing wrong with standing and I've seen no one state anything to the contrary. A woman I greatly admire, Mitzpah, is a stander who is nothing if not the epitome of class, grace, intelligence, and a stander in the truest sense of the term.
So it's wholly inaccurate to suggest this topic has anything to do with standing being wrong, and it's more than likely a strawman thrown out there to divert the topic into the old us vs them fight as opposed to having an intelligent mature discussion. Anyone notice this thread was started by a stander who is reuniting with her husband?
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I've completed 6 marathons and I'm not done yet. Based on this comment I guess my odds of reconnecting are pretty good. Primarily because MLC truly is a marathon, not a sprint. LBSes who don't have the stamina to handle a marathon are going to continue to skew the reconciliation statistics, not because reconciliation couldn't have happened for them but because they chose to drop out of the race before it was over.
Brain, I realize you have blocked me but I'm going to respond anyhow as your suggestion that LBS'S that make the decision to stop standing don't have stamina is ridiculous especially coming from you who has a nice little kitty cat MLC ex-wife who was never a huge monster bent on destroying you.
Watcher went through Hell and has decided to proceed with the divorce. In it, Loyal, Angie, Ms T, and countless others went through Hell because they weren't lucky enough to have a kitty cat MLCer. I had my face put back together with screws. Nas's husband left her with cancer fighting for her life, virtually homeless. Yes, we all gave up the idea of standing.
But does that mean we don't have stamina? Not by a long shot.
Its not a case that we didn't have the stamina as you stated. It's that we had the strength to fight to survive and go on and thrive rather than the luxury of say waiting to complete the marathon, or even wallowing and bemoaning our fate.
To suggest that stamina is a factor is dead wrong and insulting. That suggests just exactly what people are discussing on this thread as what's wrong. That if one has stamina to wait, the MLCer will, with certainty, return to the LBS. Even RCR does not believe that.
Again, I couldn't care less that you have me blocked. But I won't let that assertion stand that stamina is a factor and some of us are just lacking stamina. Instead of looking at that as skewing numbers, perhaps people could see that as a variable to be considered since I see no recon among those with the worst of the worst long term monsters.
Lp
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The purpose of this forum is to help people transition to a new life without the MLCer.
No Brain - the purpose of this forum is to help people transition from the life at BD that they are confronted with to a life that is whole, healthy and secure for them leading to their choice of what they do in the future whether that includes the MLCer or not and that has to be their choice.
Standing is a personal decision as is choosing to divorce. That remains the preogative of the LBS and at no point have I ever seen any poster insisting that the LBS divorce someone neither have I ever seen anyone insisting that if you're on here you have to stand.
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Regarding trying to determine the percentage of marriages that reconcile...my first question would be what definition is being used to identify that a person is actually having a MLC?
Without a clear and standardized tool to measure the "diagnosis" of MLC, how could you determine what the percentages are?
Referring to someone's MLCer as being a "kitty cat MLCer" is wrong in my eyes and mean spirited.
Domestic violence occurs throughout all socioeconomic groups. It is a terrible and sometimes deadly fate for victims.
Suggesting that your own situation is worse or better than another's is insensitive to other's pain and I hate seeing it here.
I hate seeing all this fighting and arguing with one another on Heros Spouse.
Differences of opinion are one thing but the tone of this thread is deeply disturbing.
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A good point xyz about the standard 'diagnosis' issue.
I do disagree though that the tone of this thread - or the previous one - constitutes 'fighting and arguing'. I am sorry if you find it so, but I don't know how one can discuss different points of view about some of our basic beliefs about MLC without disagreement.
The original thread question - imho a good and useful one - was about the effects of seeing ones own situation through the MLC lens and if it keeps you stuck. This naturally evolved into a discussion about both the MLC lens and what constitutes stuck or not. Which then expanded into a discussion about the effect of the MLC lens on different beliefs about standing and the likeliehood of reconciliation.
People - as individuals, with different beliefs about MLC from their own experience, with different situations - have reached different personal conclusions about their own choice to stand or their own assessment of likely reconciliation as a reason for standing. As others have explicitly said, I have great respect for those who choose to find a healthy way to stand and respect the importance of hope for all of us. But I find it a little disheartening if we are unable to discuss how our individual beliefs about MLC inform our own choices in the particulars of our own situations without being accused of devaluing standing as a choice or failing to accept that others may see reconciliation as an aspiration. Not all MLC behaviour is created equal. Not all of us could find a sustainable way to stand and live well much as we wished we could. Not all of us see reconciliation as even remotely possible even when most of us came here desiring nothing less.
I would like HS to be a kind place that honours the pain of this experience while also honouring the reality that different LBS are forced over time to reevaluate their perspective and hopes.
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Regarding trying to determine the percentage of marriages that reconcile...my first question would be what definition is being used to identify that a person is actually having a MLC?
Without a clear and standardized tool to measure the "diagnosis" of MLC, how could you determine what the percentages are?
XY, come on now....that is a stretch. Now as I have said REPEATEDLY, we cannot accurate count statistics, but I think is safe to say, based upon the evidence we DO have available, chances are less than half. But if you really want to go down this rabbit hole, then lets be honest: Not ONE single person on this ENTIRE PLANET has EVER been "diagnosed" with MLC. Now you are wanting to quantify something that isn't even quantifiable in the first place.
Referring to someone's MLCer as being a "kitty cat MLCer" is wrong in my eyes and mean spirited.
I disagree. Now I have had discussions with other members, and the people I have talked to have all agreed you CAN'T compare pain. One person may have a much lower threshold for emotional pain, and not quite as mean spirited of a MLCer and still be crushed. You might have another LBSer whose MLCer is as nasty as they come but are better able to cope. So I agree with you there. But I saw nothing derogatory or mean spirited about LP's post. I have no other idea how she could have posted in another way to get her point across.
Domestic violence occurs throughout all socioeconomic groups. It is a terrible and sometimes deadly fate for victims.
Absolutely agree!
Suggesting that your own situation is worse or better than another's is insensitive to other's pain and I hate seeing it here.
Agree as well, but again I didn't read into the post the same thing that you did.
I hate seeing all this fighting and arguing with one another on Heros Spouse.
Differences of opinion are one thing but the tone of this thread is deeply disturbing.
Disturbing to the contributors involved, just select individuals, or just you?
I'm watching the thread, but I am in and out of it because I have been cleaning and now starting Turkey Dinner since I have my D10 here. ;)
-T
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I think it is human nature to compare ourselves to others. And if I were to say xyzcf had a milder mlcer than me it would not be unfair. Because perhaps if I had her mlcer rather than my own it would have personally easier for me to handle than what I got.
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Hi terrified
Differences of opinion are one thing but the tone of this thread is deeply disturbing.
Disturbing to the contributors involved, just select individuals, or just you?
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I shall change it ....Differences of opinion are one thing but I find the tone of this thread deeply disturbing.
NYM:
Because perhaps if I had her mlcer rather than my own it would have personally easier for me to handle than what I got.
Do you know anything about me or my MLCer? I think I last had a thread about my own story in 2013. I don't add to my story, not because there are not things that have happened since 2013 but because I do not want to.....just like many other LBSers who no longer write here.
"I" am against trying to predict the percentage of MLCers that return home. I don't think that was the purpose of this thread originally and each time the topic has come up over the years it causes a ruckus.
"I" have not seen any standers, the few that there are, trying to convince anyone to stand. The perception is that standers are pushing their agenda, again this is my own perception.
Since many have commented on the difficulty to obtain reliable data then "I" dislike when stats are used that are not accurate. My bias being that it may convince some people that there is no reason to believe that the crisis can end. Perhaps I am wrong, it may not have any effect and I certainly do not base my position on how many returns there are or not.
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"I" am against trying to predict the percentage of MLCers that return home. I don't think that was the purpose of this thread originally and each time the topic has come up over the years it causes a ruckus.
And THAT RIGHT THERE is the crux of the problem. The way *I* see it, you are AGAINST being upfront and forthcoming that the chances of a reconciliation has a low probably of success.
"I" have not seen any standers, the few that there are, trying to convince anyone to stand. The perception is that standers are pushing their agenda, again this is my own perception.
And I have not seen ONE non-stander try and convince anyone NOT to stand. It is a personal choice, up to the individual LBSer to decide for themselves what is best for them.
Since many have commented on the difficulty to obtain reliable data then "I" dislike when stats are used that are not accurate. My bias being that it may convince some people that there is no reason to believe that the crisis can end. Perhaps I am wrong, it may not have any effect and I certainly do not base my position on how many returns there are or not.
I guess I have to agree with you there. Inaccurate statistics should not be presented as fact. But AGAIN, based upon the information that we DO HAVE available, I still believe that information should be readily disclosed to the newcomers so they know what they are potentially dealing with so that can make an informed decision based upon the available information. *I* believe that concealing the information under the guise of "it may convince some people that there is no reason to believe that the crisis can end" can potentially be extremely dangerous.
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Terrified, I am not trying to conceal "information".
I don't like when doctors tell patients the amount of time they have left to live. My experience has been that they are seldom right about it. Other people surely wish to know how much time they have left.
I don't like when the news starts to predict a huge storm several days before the fact when often it passes us by or we just get a bit of snow. People get all bent out of shape cancelling their plans and filling up their shelves with groceries "just in case".
Honestly and I truly am not trying to be difficult, but I don't see HS hiding information. I don't see anyone trying to convince another that their spouse will return.
What I have tried to do on several occasions is tell LBSers that they must protect themselves financially.
I'm just not seeing it terrified. People come to HS wanting reassurance ...especially they often want a rule book that will somehow influence the outcome.
I have told people..this is not about you or your marriage. This is his/her journey and there is nothing you can do to change what he/she will do. Focus on yourself, you will survive this.
If people read RCR's articles and form their own idea about the possibility of a return, that is their interpretation. RCR makes it very clear in her articles. Anyway, enough taking over this thread.
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XY, not trying to be argumentative, just trying to have a discussion.
Your right, bad choice of words on my part. I do NOT believe you or anyone else is purposely concealing anything. I don't think there is any big conspiracy going on. It just *seems to me* there are a handful of posters, you included, that don't want the information revealed. You even said it yourself: You don't like doctors telling patients how long they have to live. Its fine for you to tell your doctor "i don't want to know", but I don't think its fine to have the doctor not tell other patients.
Also just like your storm analogy. I respect YOUR opinion on that, but OTHER people might want to know so they can "hope for the best, but prepare for the worst".
You are right, every time the subject of the odds come up, the threads turn into a firestorm. I *FEEL* as if its the ones who discount/don't want to read it/say that stating the chances is pointless are really the ones who get the storm brewing. If the chances are meaningless to you, why both participating in the discussion at all unless the information being presented is blatantly false...
Off subject, Just wanted to wish all a Happy Thanksgiving. Stander or not, I wish nothing but the best for everyone here on HS.
-T
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TNT. We cannot state "the chances." That is one of the reasons that "odds" stir up discussion. I've already said that not only do we not know the true historical data, it could not offer a useful way to predict MLC outcomes at all! Our minds want it to, but it just cannot.
To give a newbie (or anyone) a numerical estimate of their "chances" can be seen as actually misinforming them. We are not obligated to substitute weak data for impossible-to-obtain good data. Sometimes what seems the "best" information is still unacceptably poor. But again...even if we had historicals, it wouldn't mean anything for that poster's real situation.
It is not an either/or proposition either. Not telling them they have bad chances is NOT in any way the same as telling them they are home free and are guaranteed success!
Nobody is keeping anything from anyone. It should be really clear to anyone who reads or posts here that the whole thing is uncertain! That is ALL we can say about "chances," and that has been borne out over and over by hundreds of thousands of posts.
Even if a bunch of posters here -- say, 1000 of them -- all voted to keep the so-called "odds" a secret from all newbies? It wouldn't change a thing in reality. This isn't their site, there's real information plainly already in the available content, and advice from those who are clear on how UNCERTAIN it all is would also post to the newbies.
And, just for fun (:P), almost everyone knows that the historical stats on marriage in the US (maybe elsewhere too) are that it ends in divorce upward of 40% of the time. Should we then use that to discourage people from getting married? Some have believed so. But for most of us, that stat is really quite useless in practice. It is historical data only. Further, it has gone up and down over time. As they say in the stock market, past performance is no guarantee of future results. And that is a field that is overmeasured, if anything is!
BTW, TNT...it has been proven that patients who are informed like that don't last long. It's a practice that is starting to get phased out. XY is right -- these doctors DON'T KNOW for sure, but they can cause harm by acting as if they do. (Yes, of course some cases are going to be clearly not survivable for long...fine print, fine print...)
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RedStar, again I think we are just going to have to agree to disagree.
Your right, we CAN'T state the chances because accurate figures are impossible to obtain.
I still stand by my statement that based upon what we see on HS alone, the odds are less in favor than more in favor of recon. Divorce statistics, and remarriage statistics seem to concur. Yes I know, re-marriage is not the benchmark from which successful recon is gauged. Still, overwhelmingly again, based on what information we DO have available, all indicators seem to point to less recons than not. I am confident that is an accurate statement. I won't give statistics, because there are none to give (I agree there).
Also, it may be proven that patients who have been informed of their estimated time of life left to live or their odds of survival beating a specific terminal illness don't live long, what a shame to not be forthcoming with them if they want to know what they are potentially up against. If a patient says "Doc, I don't care, I don't want to know" that's one thing, but to remove their right to know seems morally wrong to me. I can't believe they would actually phase that practice out. There are ALWAYS statistical outliers, so of course the Docs could be wrong. But again, based upon the available data at the time it would seem cruel to me for a Doctor to conceal that information.
-T
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Regarding trying to determine the percentage of marriages that reconcile...my first question would be what definition is being used to identify that a person is actually having a MLC?
Without a clear and standardized tool to measure the "diagnosis" of MLC, how could you determine what the percentages are?
Referring to someone's MLCer as being a "kitty cat MLCer" is wrong in my eyes and mean spirited.
You can see it anyway you like. It's hardly surprising that you react rather than respond after after all these years of you doing that over and over to something I write. The only thing I can't understand is why you continue. Perhaps it would be more beneficial to seek help in understanding why you have painted me as your nemesis than to continue to be stuck repeating this pattern over and over?
Domestic violence occurs throughout all socioeconomic groups. It is a terrible and sometimes deadly fate for victims.
True however not relevant to the context. With your nursing experience it's odd that you defend a man who suggests that those who suffer domestic violence and decide not to stand lack stamina. Surely you're not suggesting you agree with that patently ridiculous statement?
Suggesting that your own situation is worse or better than another's is insensitive to other's pain and I hate seeing it here.
Interesting twist of words and context. I don't need to suggest my situation is worse than anyone else's because I'm not looking for sympathy, recognition as a martyr, or to be a victim. Perhaps you should reconsider the lens you are using in evaluating posts?
I hate seeing all this fighting and arguing with one another on Heros Spouse.
What you see is not fighting but normal discussion between mature adults who have varying opinions on a discussion thread. Perhaps it could be constructive to ask yourself why you are only comfortable when everyone thinks in a similar fashion as you do?
Differences of opinion are one thing but the tone of this thread is deeply disturbing.
XYZCF have you noticed that seemingly anything that doesn't agree with your thoughts is deeply disturbing to you? It must be difficult to live in a diverse world where you find so much to be deeply disturbing. I hope you find a way to learn to accept that others are allowed to have opinions that differ from yours without being deeply disturbed some day.
Lp
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I still stand by my statement that based upon what we see on HS alone, the odds are less in favor than more in favor of recon.
I have said many times that the history of what has happened, even if we had accurate numbers, in no way can predict what any one situation's outcome is. One can make the argument that there is literally no such thing as odds here.
And then, the action we take based on what our "odds" appear to be is a whole other issue, as hinted at with my point about marriage stats.
to remove their right to know seems morally wrong to me. <snip> conceal that information.
It's interesting that that's where you went with that regarding the patients. Nobody said anything about removing their right to know or concealing information. It's another non-either-or thing where a more common practice is being recognized as potentially harmful and so needs adjustment of some sort to mitigate that harm. I'm pretty sure we aren't at the bottom of the slippery slope yet.
It ties in though with the question of what is "information," and what is useful/productive/useless/harmful information. It's not just about what is true or false (or even discoverable), right? It's so complicated that it's hard to even discuss.
Anyway, good chatting with you about complicated matters. :)
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Xyz I was using you and me as hypothetical examples.
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I still stand by my statement that based upon what we see on HS alone, the odds are less in favor than more in favor of recon.
I have said many times that the history of what has happened, even if we had accurate numbers, in no way can predict what any one situation's outcome is. One can make the argument that there is literally no such thing as odds here.
I guess the logic just fails me here. I just can't comprehend your point of view. While your statement is certainly true, the same could apply to other things besides MLC. I guess what I am saying is, why bother keeping statistics on ANY subject???
And then, the action we take based on what our "odds" appear to be is a whole other issue, as hinted at with my point about marriage stats.
to remove their right to know seems morally wrong to me. <snip> conceal that information.
It's interesting that that's where you went with that regarding the patients. Nobody said anything about removing their right to know or concealing information. It's another non-either-or thing where a more common practice is being recognized as potentially harmful and so needs adjustment of some sort to mitigate that harm. I'm pretty sure we aren't at the bottom of the slippery slope yet.
I am relieved to hear that. I take it you must be in the medical field? Off topic, but I am curious...if so, just curious...since that practice is being phased out, what do they do now? I *assume* just don't bring up odds/estimated time of life left unless specifically asked by the patient?
It ties in though with the question of what is "information," and what is useful/productive/useless/harmful information. It's not just about what is true or false (or even discoverable), right? It's so complicated that it's hard to even discuss.
Anyway, good chatting with you about complicated matters. :)
Same to you. :)
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My mother, who was also a nurse, told me once that in her experience, seriously ill people fell into two camps broadly - those that wanted detailed information bc they wanted to control their choices and those that did not bc they preferred to trust the experts. Perhaps the same is true for LBS.....
Any chance we could sidle back a bit closer to the original question and interesting discussion now? If talking about outcomes is not so productive, I must admit that I find it interesting to learn how others use their MLC lens and the underpinning beliefs about MLC to be 'stuck' or 'unstuck'
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For what it's worth, I was very blessed to have a mild MLCer.
When I read stories about abusers, neglected children or Monsters, I do think a lot of LBS's have had it MUCH worse than I did.
Yes mine was very painful, they all are, but some were definitely much more painful than mine, IN MY OPINION ONLY.
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Any chance we could sidle back a bit closer to the original question and interesting discussion now? If talking about outcomes is not so productive, I must admit that I find it interesting to learn how others use their MLC lens and the underpinning beliefs about MLC to be 'stuck' or 'unstuck'
Yes, PLEASE!
Before I sign off, I would like to make a comment about ‘statistics.’ Adult knowledge 101 but it seems to have been ignored a bit on this thread.
Generally speaking, statistics is about the overall picture of a large group of subjects/population. It is not possible to forecast individual cases. Well, unless one is a fortune teller.... It’s about probabilities, not possibilities for you, me or anyone.
For example, the probability of me winning Lotto Max Jackpot in Canada is 0.00000003%.
Is is possible for me to win? Yes.
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People come to HS wanting reassurance ...especially they often want a rule book that will somehow influence the outcome.
I'm a people. I did not come seeking reassurance or a rule book. I came trying to figure out what happened, and how to survive having a live in MLCer, without destroying any possibility of reconciliation.
IMO, I had all the information I needed here. Some people reconciled under X situation. That might happen for me, it might not, and I got to choose if I wanted to wait for a person who would do what XH did to me. I made my choice.
I'm almost hearing that some posters don't believe other posters are capable of making their own decisions based on everything that is here. Because it's not in big red letters as factual numbers? Because an LBS cannot get back their critical thinking skills once they have gotten on an even keel? Or do people think that if someone is stuck, they have lost their critical thinking skills until they are unstuck? Or can't people just be stuck for a while and figure things out at their own pace?
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OR, I completely agree with you but I think xyzcf may be right and you and I may not be normal.
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In response, I'd say that I came here looking for answers as well to what in the world happened to my spouse and how to glue myself back together so I wasn't looking for reassurances that my spouse would return.
In that perhaps we are in the minority although I don't know that with any degree of statistical certainty.
However, as to critical thinking skills, several thoughts to toss out there for consideration:
1. Critical thinking skills are best utilized when as much information as possible is clearly presented.
2. Critical thinking skills do not seem to be at the optimum level when one has just been traumatized.
3. Critical thinking skills do not seem to be normally and or optimally accessible for many if not most who are suffering with things such as PTSD and like diagnosis as well as depression and anxiety.
4. Some circumstances do not allow for time so that the poster regains the ability to make fully and solidly rational decisions to the best of their ability because the poster has a high energy MLCer, is a violent MLCer, is spending through all financial resources, is accumulating joint debt, is involved in risky activities, is attacking ones career and or reputation, is involved in drug use and or sales, is risking drinking and driving, etc.
5. Many of those who post have gone through or are going through a time of their spouse gas lighting them. In gas lighting a part that is directly attacked is ones ability to use critical thinking skills and have confidence in those decisions.
6. People come here for different reasons. Some for information. Others want the secret key to getting their spouse back. Others want commisseration. Some don't want to feel alone. Others have a variety of other personal reasons.
The reasons and the varying levels of trauma, PTSD, depression, anxiety, previous physical and mental health, the type of MLCer, financial situation, age, age of children, etc seem to have an impact on how a person views whether or not they found the information they wanted/needed.
7. Sometimes decisions made early in the process have long lasting repercussions.
Is anyone saying posters are not capable of making their own decisions? I don't think that is what is being said.
I think what's being said is there is no reason not to present all information. No reason to hide or even to gloss over information. No need to enable the poster in clinging to a belief such as all MLC'ers return when even RCR stated on the forum that she doesn't believe that. No reason to shift the blame to a poster when they miss a few lines in a random thread such as the response of RCR where she said she doesn't believe all MLC'ers will return. How many of the posters could find that without the link posted by Airmid? How many would even know to search for that? No reason to then state, well they will get it if they just x, or worse to state well we all know that and in time they will realize it. No reason to duck responsibility to communicate when selling a product.
An lbs can't get back their critical thinking skills when they get on an even keel?
Nope I don't think anyone is say that either. That's just what happens when some LBS's come back and say they feel duped or deceived by the information and reassurances they were given when they arrived here.
The question is really how long does it take for them to get back on an even keel? In that time what decisions are they making based on incomplete information? As an example, Years ago when I began posting here, a common piece of advice was to let the MLCer own the divorce. In time we saw the number of posters that were devastated financially by this advice grow. Many of the people that followed this advice, trusted this advice, were financially devastated by it and still have not recovered all these years later.
Is that a case in which those people were unable to use their critical thinking skills? Or unable permanently to access their critical thinking skills? I don't think so. I think they trusted the advice they received on the forum.
If someone is stuck, have they lost their critical thinking skills until they are unstuck? I don't think anyone suggests quite that. Being stuck doesn't make a person incapable. It makes them unwilling perhaps to apply critical thinking skills to maximum levels perhaps. But that is a poster's responsibility. Not a question of ability or glossing over or stifling information or something else.
Can people be stuck for a while and just figure things out in their own time?
Absolutely. That's a personal choice that all are free to elect to follow.
However, the site doesn't have to encourage that or enable that as it's not in line with the goals of the site.
As well, the people who elect consciously or subconsciously to remain stuck should not bleed over on to others, have tantrums, make policy demands so they feel more comfortable in their stuck-ness or stifle a conversation because it makes them uncomfortable etc. Making a choice to remain stuck is a decision one should own and can live with without impacting others.
None of this is anymore than my generalized opinion off the cuff, typed on my phone, in an effort to think over points you raised. I would hope others could add or subtract their thoughts if they have an opinion.
Lp
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I completely understand what you wrote, LP, and agree with most of it. The rest I have questions about only because I'm still trying to figure out how people get "duped" by what is here. Were/are there posters who post as if their opinions are definitive "proof" that something is, when it is nothing more than their opinion? Oh, yeah. Ticks me off to no small degree.
Perhaps I am so clueless as to believe people can figure out who is screwed up from who isn't on their own, if only eventually.. IMO, sorting through that here has been a great help with my spotting screwed up people in R/L. Pollyanna Offroad believed everyone has the same or better intellect and capabilities as she does until it's proven otherwise. I've learned better, but still learnining.
I got all this information for FREE. I had the ability to choose to take it as gospel, or find corroboration or contestation.I suppose I'm not understanding how a person can be duped, when no one guaranteed them anything. What works for person A does not always work for person B in any part of life. People told me a live in MLCER was "better". Not for me it wasn't, but I don't hold anyone responsible for my not kicking him to the curb and just waiting for him to move out. My choice, I learned something, I will not tolerate that situation ever again. All of that is 100% ON ME, No matter what anyone here posted.
What I got here was a lot of different viewpoints. When I kept looking at everything from the viewpoint of HIS mlc, I couldn't heal myself, hence changing the focus to "How do I want to live MY life? He'll sort himself or not." I started moving forward. But I did need to stop and do some recon first. I might have been "stuck" there for longer than someone else thought I should be, but it was just as long as I needed.
If anything about my experience can help another, awesome. But I'm not here to fix someone else. Let them figure it out like an intelligent human being without spoon feeding them all of the way. Let them stop blaming the rest of the world for their own choices given their situation. Let them be sad if their choices lead them to sadness. Commiserate if you want to and don't if you don't.
I don't believe people get stuck because of advice they get here. I think they get stuck because that is who they are at that time. Once someone is ready to move forward or change their stars, words that have been posted have new meaning. JMO. I am most certain everyone's mileage will vary.
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OR, I completely agree with you but I think xyzcf may be right and you and I may not be normal.
MBIB, I revel in being not neuro-typical. :) But truly, do you think people are looking for reassurance that their spouse is going to come back? Because that isn't here and hasn't been since I arrived over 4 years ago. I'm still trying to figure out why the site I've been reading seems to be different than what others are reading. This site always said "This was what worked for me" (RCR). What worked for her would never work for me, So cool, one person's opinion. I am grateful I learned enough to never destroy any chance of reconnection on my part because I get to know I am not at fault if that never happens. Had I had an abusive mlcer, I wouldn't care. It matters how the mlcer behaved
Is the neuro typical thing to blindly believe anything you read? (Maybe so because...Social Media?) Again, I'm on board with I'm not normal. I would just like someone to explain why anyone would think reading/doing something guarantees them anything.
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Quote from: xyzcf on November 28, 2019, 12:54:51 PM
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People come to HS wanting reassurance ...especially they often want a rule book that will somehow influence the outcome.
I'm a people. I did not come seeking reassurance or a rule book. I came trying to figure out what happened, and how to survive having a live in MLCer, without destroying any possibility of reconciliation.
Sorry Offroad, I should have said "some" people come here.
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I will be the first to admit that I had zero critical thinking skills when I first joined this forum. I wanted the magical keys to get my marriage back and I did not want to let anything else in that would deter me from my one and only goal.
The old timers repeated again and again, “stop monkey-braining, take your focus off of him and onto yourself, GAL, He’s in la-la land, practice self-care, etc., etc.,...
Remember that advice? I still feel whether or not reconciliation is a possibility (statistics don’t matter, IMO) focusing on yourself is the way to go.
Does anyone else notice a shift lately?
I give this same advice and lately the response is, “If you don’t like this thread, keep scrolling”, “What’s the big deal if I want to get in their heads?” “We don’t need your protection”
Well, IMO (and usually the opinion of any old timer who has walked through Hell to the other side), the big deal of focusing on the MLCer is, yes, it keeps you stuck in the bargaining stage of grief (if I do/say the right things, if I’m patient, if I Love them more than the rest of you, I will win the MLC lottery). Now, if you were stuck in anger, the same exact people who wallow in the bargaining stage year after year after year would be yelling at the top of their lungs for you to forgive immediately or you will remain bitter for life.
I agree with Whyus, that focusing on any MLCer, currently or a self-proclaimed ex-MLCer is “dangerous”, maybe not bc their advice is necessarily dangerous but bc it keeps the LBS wallowing in the bargaining stage.
One of my favorite words of advice came from BBHelp, a poster who has reconciled with his wife, he often writes, “whatever you focus on gets bigger”, those words were so powerful to me.
I love that he reconciled with his wife, even though reconciliation isn’t in the cards for me, that doesn’t mean I don’t have hope for others, it’s not a contest. I just feel, like BBHelp, we need to put our focus where it belongs, in the firetrucking mirror!
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And I agree Nah. Denial, Bargaining we've all been there.
And I really think it would help newbies more if they were educated in the 5 stages of grief. And when you are processing or dealing with grief in my humble opinion you need to be left alone by these MLCers to do it. You need peace and quiet and not all the chaos/ mixed messages/lies some of them create that keep the attention on them. That means NC will be helpful.
Even if it's 30 days of nc, just something for the LBS to establish a boundary so they can deal with the shock of it all. You'll probably suffer a lot less emotional damage if you do with the things they say.
I had no idea I was grieving when I first came here. No one was dead. That's the only way I identified with grief is if someone died.
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"I don't believe people get stuck because of advice they get here. I think they get stuck because that is who they are at that time. Once someone is ready to move forward or change their stars, words that have been posted have new meaning. "
I used to believe that as well in a sense. But in the last year or 2 I have come to think it's more complicated than that. As I said above, we all have the propensity to get stuck. But I'd toss out that the tone of the forum, the focus of the forum, who the newbies come into contact with first, as well as having a consistent message, a balanced approach between compassion and encouragement, and other factors matter as well it seems to me.
It's not so much that people get stuck because of the advice given here alone although some of that is questionable (like blanketly insisting one should let the MLCer own the divorce because God knows these people are not focused on our best interests or concerns overall much less thinking clearly generally).
It's that it feeds the propensity to get stuck. And there is little counter balance to that message. And I think that's at the crux of some of this discussion, that some posters are bothered by the unbalanced message being presented by a select group of vocal posters who seem to dominate the message at least at times and they no longer see the forum as having a focus on getting back on one's feet and managing life with a MLCer, healing, moving forward, being happy, being their own person, all which was thought to increase the possibility of recon if both parties someday chose, to a forum that focuses on the MLCer, thoughts, words, deeds, hidden messages in those, will they regret their actions, and conversely on the everlasting pain of the LBS and looking for psychological explanations for their issue, seemingly so they can skip right to being the most compassionate and forgiving LBS of the week.
Well, thanks for helping me narrow and define my thinking on this topic.
Lp
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Nah. I remember that phrase too...took a while for me to be able to use it but when I could, it madeva big difference.
But I also remember how kindness and feeling reassured that I was normal and not insane made a bigger difference first. Kindness is not enabling imho. It's a kind of gentle playing witness. And it is easy to forget perhaps a few years later as our strength and detachment shapes our MLC lens that probably most of us had an early time when we needed kindness like air.
Again imho grief, shock, fear and pain....along with the almost inevitable lies, gaslighting and blameshifting that seems to be part of an MLCers preferred toolkit...does stop most of us seeing our own wood for our own trees for a while. Seeing some of the inherent nonsense and futility of what we are trying to adapt around. The MLC lens fills a void for a while maybe....and what we come to believe about it may shape our choices. Which sometimes carry significant consequences. Simple ones too like continuing to expose ourselves to further hurt or confusion. I agree with init that an initial period of NC to catch our breath would help many of us....but of course we don't know what we don't know and by the time we do events have unfolded.
Perhaps we should be more specific early on about things like radical self care, what doing detachment might look like or different ways of GALing? Or ask people to consider where they are on the Fight/freeze/fawn/flight response spectrum. Idk. But I think newbies come here often in the equivalent of the ER and seeing the wood for the trees is part of moving to ICU perhaps.
I honestly believe that the beliefs we have about MLC shape how we use the MLC lens.
I have wondered sometimes too if there are things that make Standing more or less sustainable. I have no opinion or right to tell someone else to Stand, to not, or to go back and forwards about it. It is true I think that meeting your own needs, focusing on your recovery and wellbeing regardless, is a win no matter what happens. But I wonder if there is almost a tipping point of practical things that makes Standing less risky or more do-able for some situations than for others? I'm not sure....it may be different for different folks and I'd guess mostbof us come here as default Standers....but I suspect too that sometimes beliefs about MLC (e.g. that it is a long but temporary process, that the MLCer is in pain and confusion too) may encourage our beliefs about the merit of Standing or not filing or how much contact we have.
So, jmo, but it seems to me that being as honest with ourselves as we can about our own beliefs about the MLC lens shapes how we use it....which in turn shapes our actions and choices. And it isn't easy bc by then we have probably set some of those beliefs in quite firm ground as this link explains. https://theoatmeal.com/comics/believe And it is uncomfortable to challenge our own beliefs and uncomfortable to be in disagreement with HS folks who have supported us maybe. Maybe too why a few years down the line we see newbies post things and think 'well, if i had known then/been able to foresee how much worse it would get...i would have done x or y' but the memory of how shellshocked we were has faded a little perhaps? I know I started to make progress when I started to treat the MLC lens as optional and to care more about my own sense of what was around me than how I labelled it. And that did make me question what I did or did not believe about a bunch of things, as well as which beliefs served me or didn't.
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The old timers repeated again and again, “stop monkey-braining, take your focus off of him and onto yourself, GAL, He’s in la-la land, practice self-care, etc., etc.,...
But it's like telling someone not to think of a pink elephant. The only way I think to truly do all those things is to get away from people telling you to do them and just living your life.
How many times do these old timers need to repeat the same stuff over and over without thinking? UM described a comment from Acorn on her thread as being like "Live like they aren't coming back" but Acorn's H never left! So it makes zero sense to describe it that way.
I think a lot of the advice is being doled out without any critical thinking whatsover. It's become robotic. It's become one size fits all and ignores people's individual situations.
But then there are those who are totally offended when you point out your situation isn't like theirs (e.g. vanisher vs. non-vanisher), yet I think these differences do matter when it comes to deciding how to handle the situation.
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True, NYM, often there is standard advise that doesn’t work for everyone. Like LP wrote, having the MLCer “own the divorce” often led to financial devastation.
Your example of “live like they’re not coming back” doesn’t work for live-ins. Is there a discussion thread for live-ins like there is for vanishers? If there isn’t, there should be.
Anyways, your pink elephant example. I agree, 100%, we are going to think about the pink elephant, it’s impossible not to think of them, especially if they’re standing in front of you, or even if they instantly became a ghost.
I still think “focus on you” applies. How is it healthy to come to a support forum after monkey braining all day about your own pink elephant and start asking a self-proclaimed former pink elephant what they were thinking? “Hey, Ex-PE, did you like your tail rubbed?, how about your trunk? If your caretaker talked to other PE’s did you get mad or would you then decide to stop being a PE?
If the PE wants to be a PE, that’s their issue. I can spend the rest of my life being a PE caretaker or shift to being something that is healthy for me. Yes, I’m going to peek at the PE, I can smile and wave when I walk by him but let someone else shovel his huge pile of sh!t while I grab my baton to twirl in my own parade.
The point is, we are naturally going to talk about them, look their way, and wallow in the “what if’s” but IMO, it’s not healthy.
When I first met my current husband, part of my attraction to him was the GALing. I was obsessed with traveling, and he liked to travel too, so it worked (it was just about having fun). Anyways, I was only about 3 years post BD, so I would often have triggers. A place, a song, a memory, you know the drill, and I would fall into a dark place in my mind and would go over what happened again and again and again, repeating the bad memories like a broken record. “E” would listen, then hold my hand and whisper, “come back to me”, and I would. I wallowed for a few minutes and he literally reached out his hand and helped me back into reality or what he used to say, “be where your feet are placed, not in the past, not in the future but in the now.”
IMO, we need to travel through the necessary stages but sometimes we need a gentle reminder to stop the constant wallowing about the pink elephant.
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Good morning,
"I agree with Whyus, that focusing on any MLCer, currently or a self-proclaimed ex-MLCer is “dangerous”, maybe not bc their advice is necessarily dangerous but bc it keeps the LBS wallowing in the bargaining stage."
Well I'd have to say I agree with Nah, Whyus, and In it. I believe I see a shift as well. Instead of being willing to think about what's said and written, (applying critical thinking skills?) some of the newer generations and a vocal group of older timers seem to want to believe they know, that there's a short cut to this, that anyone suggesting anything else is wrong, and that differences are insulting attacks so they can just run around sticking their fingers in their ears shouting I don't have to listen to you. Some due to being young in this, some due to being unable to yet face/grasp all and apply critical thinking skills, some because their ego overrides all else, some because they are wallower lbs, some because it's easier to get answers they want, and a variety of other reasons.
If these people want to stare at the pink elephant, my attitude is go, stare until you get your answers for the most part. If they want to believe one MLCer journey is applicable to all others, and use a former MLCer as a soothsayer, good luck with that. Obviously RCR has allowed it to date but may be questioning that most recently.
My personal opinion:
Really, using critical thinking skills, who seriously believes with any long term experience of MLC, one MLC'ers experience has any bearing or explanatory value on that of another except in the most generalized sense? So what if they use a few common terms/script occasionally? Those commonalities are so general as to be nothing more than of passing interest holding no explanatory value in the long term other than to reassure the lbs that what they are seeing is most likely a MLC. When we look for commonalities we find them. Human nature. When we seek differences, the same. Focusing on one to the exclusion of another? Is that applying critical thinking?
All have different sorts of foo issues where details matter.
All have different life experiences
All have different personalities
Differences in mlc type high energy to wallower
Different opportunities, assets available to play with
Children, no children
Different physical health and mental health histories
Different levels of family support
And most importantly we are all different and had different responses and relationship styles while together.
Thats why it's amusing watching some of these same people argue statistics aren't applicable as to returns but then turn around and argue that watching the pink elephant and seeking answers from a former MLCer is important and or holds some validity or importance, a window in. If these people were all the same then there would/could be predictive value, wouldn't there? Selection bias.
I see over and over the quotes about it being like a movie, but my J thinks that's absolutely ridiculous and just another romanticized excuse rather than the MLCer being honest and 100% owning their behaviour. He thinks it's just a typical pattern of rewriting history and romanticizing the process while also filling the lbs with what they want to hear and increasing the chance perhaps that they have a soft place to return to. Does that mean one is wrong? Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe it's a difference between where people are in healing. Mlc made J brutally honest believing that to tell a truth to someone even if it hurts is better than trying to couch things in a way that won't hurt as much but leaves the message open to interpretation. He's given up wanting to protect or fix another and he's dealt with the guilt he had for what he did.
J thinks its a big pile of bull cookies to tell an lbs that their MLCER thinks of them, let alone thinks often of them. Or that some MLCers aren't having fun. He frankly states he was having a great time in the beginning running free with no responsibilities knowing he could return home at any time. It wasn't until the end of the journey that he had anymore than fleeting thoughts about home other than how things impacted him. Was this due to him being high energy? His personality? His FOO issues? Something else? How does it apply to others? It doesn't. He's one person.
That's what I mean. We used to understand that these people are different. They have different personalities, different life experiences, different foo issues, different mlc types.
And that realization was because there was a balance on the forum. We were encourage to read others stories even if those stories caused us to examine uncomfortable issues. We weren't applauded for having tantrums or encouraged to just block someone if we disagreed with her. We didnt expect everyone to agree. And we debated topics.
Another thought, what good does it do to think you are gaining insight hanging on the words of a reformed MLCer? Does that help move your life forward? Pay your bills? Ensure to any degree yours will come home? Heal your wounds? Make the lbs a more attractive option? A healthier balanced person? I doubt that. There are dozens of people over the years around here that really invested time and energy immersing themselves in views into the MLC world. Exactly 0 of them that I can think of off the top of my head are back with their MLCer unless you count rcr and she didn't learn by using some MLCer as a fortune teller but by doing. But that's just my opinion not a statistical analysis.
Does it help the MLCer if you know a ton about MLC? Not really because that is still the controlling fixer attitude these people disliked, even rebelled against So they had the space to grow. So how would that draw them back? These people managed to have a crisis without our directing it. They can manage to come out without us controlling or having input as well.
Learn enough to get your feet under you, and physician heal yourself. That's where the real returns are. And if the spouse does the work as well, then there is a chance. But you can't do the work for them and expect them to be grateful and have the lesson sink in. That's not healthy human nature.
These pink elephant watchers will be surprised in the end, if their MLCER ever comes out and opens up, how much it enables the MLCER to take another trip around the moon when the lbs is staring at the pink elephant waiting for it to move rather than moving forward focusing on herself. They will be surprised how much their assumptions that begin with "He must..." are just dead wrong. And with the passage of time in hindsight appear juvenile and unhealthy to them. That's my experience. Maybe yours will be different? Go ahead stare at the pink elephant if you choose, and see a fortune teller if it helps.
J didn't get through his crisis because I knew a ton about mlc. He got through his crisis because it was time and he chose to.
But, if you want to stare at the pink elephant, stare away. Be sure to come back in 5 years and let us know where you are and the updates on the progress of your pink elephant.
A last thought, we all stare at the pink elephant in the beginning. Some longer than others. Who wouldn't stare at him? Theres an alien with big antennas in our spouses body in the front room. We old timers haven't forgotten the pain. We have, however, for the most part gotten past the pain and learned there is no joy or reward for staring at the pink elephant the longest, or being the quickest to achieve the mythical grail of most forgiving or understanding. That no PhD in MLC studies is awarded. That agape love is an ideal not a summit to be achieved as none are perfect, that it's natural and OK even necessary to be angry at some points, that there is life outside MLC, that sitting down in hell doesn't have to be a life habit, no matter our level of knowledge or intellect, we can't control or fix another, that we shouldn't want to invest a lifetime in fixing another, that our identity is not defined by MLC or what happens on this forum, that uncomfortable spots are where growing often occurs if we are mature enough and ready to deal with it. That our ego is one of the first things that must get tossed in the disposal before progress is made. We know these things because we've been there.
But we must also remember to allow space for others to grow into realizations that seem obvious to us. To form their own opinions and come to their own conclusions. Yes we can share our thoughts and experiences, warning of pitfalls. We can dislike the focus of the forum as is with the collection of pink elephants and answer people. We can fear the forum has taken a dangerous direction. And we can voice our concerns. Some will hear and others will defend, feel insulted, or complain amongst themselves or to RCR. Some here would be surprised just how many old timers, former mods, Stander's and those long recon believe the direction of the forum is wrong.
Yet none of that matters if they are silent or if decision-makers don't hear.
Which brings to mind the line,
There are none so blind as those who will not see. The most deluded people are those who choose to ignore what they already know.
Now just who am I suggesting by this? I'll leave that to those who wish to react rather than respond, assume rather than apply, who personalize rather than see the big picture.
Now it's back to my life outside MLC for me as the holiday weekend is over and I've shared my thoughts for what they are worth. And I'm tired of fighting with this site to work correctly.
Lp
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Well, LP, you beat me to it on one point. Only because I’m having endless trouble posting. ;D
I might as well post it, though you said it already.
The (ex)MLCer you read about is not your MLCer. You cannot possibly guess what’s going on in anyone’s head by extrapolating one/two/three persons’ descriptions of their mental state to your MLCer. There are sure to be some similarities and even those might be because one forces them to fit. Whatever ex/self proclaimed MLCer says is a sample of one.
Heck, I could quote my H to present the exact opposite views an MLCer. For example, it was my ‘strength and resilience,’ as he put it, that annoyed him to no end. But then, it’s just a sample of one, right?
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Funny how this thread with so many thought provoking posts was forgotten when many of us were distracted with a letter from a self-proclaimed MLCer from another site.
Seems to me the activities of MLCers have a way of stirring up emotions.
I had fly to another state for work yesterday. The safety instructions were pretty clear...
In case of emergency, put on your own oxygen mask first.
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I had fly to another state for work yesterday. The safety instructions were pretty clear...
In case of emergency, put on your own oxygen mask first.
Exactly. Whatever it is that's happened to the person I/you was/were married to, we still have lives to live and need to take care of ourselves.
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I had fly to another state for work yesterday. The safety instructions were pretty clear...
In case of emergency, put on your own oxygen mask first.
Exactly. Whatever it is that's happened to the person I/you was/were married to, we still have lives to live and need to take care of ourselves.
Yes, and our kids too, b/c the vast majority of them abandon their children too.
I think I was a slow learner too though in terms of MLC. Then again, maybe that was the time I needed to fall out of love with a presently unlovable person. Have to say, I have really enjoyed hearing all of the advice of some of the "old-timers" b/c I am exactly in the place where I can actually hear what they are saying now and put it into practice. I truly hope you all continue to post.
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I feel like we can disagree on many issues, such as statistics, what causes MLC, what is MLC, etc
I just don’t understand how anybody can skirt around the fact that focusing on ourselves is the healthier option to healing.
I don’t understand how anybody can suggest that we shouldn’t reiterate that protecting our finances is essential. I was “lucky” that I secured my finances early, so should I ignore the fact that many, many others often lose their life savings?
Why is this advice, the same advice that was given to me when I landed here battered and bruised in 2013, now considered negative?
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Why is this advice, the same advice that was given to me when I landed here battered and bruised in 2013, now considered negative?
I don't think it is Nah. Maybe for some who prefer to wear blinders. But not for the majority, I think. I hope.
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Why is this advice, the same advice that was given to me when I landed here battered and bruised in 2013, now considered negative?
I don't think it is Nah. Maybe for some who prefer to wear blinders. But not for the majority, I think. I hope.
I don’t think it is either. It’s solid advice. Many newbies don’t want to listen to it - I certainly didn’t, because the need for it was happening when I was still quite literally shell shocked from BD and truly not understanding the magnitude of what was happening to me and around me.
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I hope so too.
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I don’t think it is either. It’s solid advice. Many newbies don’t want to listen to it - I certainly didn’t, because the need for it was happening when I was still quite literally shell shocked from BD and truly not understanding the magnitude of what was happening to me and around me.
This was true for me as well. The mentors brought these ideas in gently but didn't take away hope. That is what worked. I "heard" the advice when I was ready. The seeds were planted and eventually took root and came to the surface.
In the beginning you aren't ready to hear the practicalities.......you just want comfort and a community who understands what you are going through. Support. Hugs. Caring words sprinkled with the advice that is needed; Detach, protect finances, get up and find yourself........you just can't start there right at BD.........
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I think most of us know we had a time, sometimes a long time, when we were too broken and confused to hear some of the advice we were given. I know I was. A couple of vets invested a lot of effort and good intent trying to prod me up off my knees with patchy results tbh. Not their responsibility but mine. And it is natural to want to save others heading towards a cliff we think we fell over looking back, but a kind respectful gentle touch is terribly important in the first year or so isn't it? I try to do that but I am sure I often fail. And I am no great success story so tbh I have no magic words of wisdom worth hanging your hat on lol.
But part of the joy of HS is the legacy of diverse voices. The good advice and the encouraging suggestions of what worked for others, or not, stays here and keeps popping up for when people need it and are ready. I have never entirely lost compassion for my xh bc my h was a good human being and I saw that he broke. But I can't do anything to support him or practice that compassion towards him, so I try to use it the best I can for other LBS who might find a few words helpful.
Perhaps the MLC lens is more useful for looking at an MLCer but becomes less so for looking at our own lives after a little while as the mad dust settles?
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And it is natural to want to save others heading towards a cliff we think we fell over looking back, but a kind respectful gentle touch is terribly important in the first year or so isn't it?
Yes, natural - and I think some vets, including myself want to "pay it forward".
Stayed and LP saved me when I didn't want to save myself.
But I think being a vet has its own "issues".
Vets have seen the same play over and over again.
Vets know the likely trajectories.
Vets can see the big picture more easily.
LP often said she really could not work with newbies because she didn't have the capacity to powder behinds and wipe away tears.
I picked LP as my mentor when I was at a point I could take being kicked down the path.
I explicitly gave her free rein to kick me (metaphorically).
And knowing that I gave her that option - I ran like he!! to stay way out in front of her -
chugging through LBSer task after task as fast as I could because I didn't want to feel her boot.
Knowing that if I didn't pull my own weight she would catch up to me and kick me - it was my motivational factor to staying on track for self care.
I used my fear of LP's 2x4s to my own advantage.
My approach to my own healing is not for everybody.
Certainly not for the delicate faint of heart.
LP and I are both known for the tough love approach.
Neither of us seek out newbies, or people to mentor.
Usually LBSers seek us out.
In your case Treasur - you sought out tough love mentors - only to realize that approach didn't work for you.
That realization is vital to understanding what works best for you.
But for many others - like myself - we need 2x4s because we are so stubborn.
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I agree SF, I had Xyzcf and her gentle manner jelled with mine.
She was patient and so good at getting her point across without a 2x4.
We all need something different to get us on track, because we are all different people.
Mind you, I'm not exactly against 2x4's when needed. It's just not my style I guess.
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Early on we certainly look through one lens predominately. And are treated as newbies, with others well aware we are a more fragile, more delicate soul. One at this point has certain needs and this forum has a continual and high focus on helping newbies. As it should be. I mean, Is there a better ambassadour to newbies than Thunder for example? But I don't know maybe she feels less comfortable when a few middle or old timers are debating. (I don't that, as she's never said. It's just a relatable example for cement example.)
But then there comes a time when we are on our feet more, when maybe the lens is slipping, maybe another lens is necessary due to circumstances. And you have some experience and some skills and some knowledge. And you're making decisions all over again and evaluating where you are. It's likely and even natural that your needs have changed in how/what you want from the forum. Some find they have a need to be heard, some practice that skill by writing and mentoring for example. Some find a need to release a bit of anger. Some find a need to dust off critical thinking. Some just appreciate knowing they can come back and share. Some find they have other needs. But many want to exercise those needs in an atmosphere of almost family/friends.
Do those in the second group have less of a right to be here? Less of a hope for support no matter that they aren't a pile of tears? Less of the old support of hand holding and a shift to encouraging their growth into a new phase of life as they become middle or even old timers? Applauding successes and growth?
Each of these phases comes with figurative growing pains as I see it. A long time ago there was discussion about whether hs need/should have a separate forum for older timers. It was decided no. I thought it would have been a good idea though.
It had nothing to do with standing or not, believing in mlc or not. It had a ton to do with realizing different people have different needs especially when looking through different lens. They are dealing with different emotions, different circumstances, different thoughts, different needs perhaps. And that could perhaps be easier to manage without hurting others if the two were separate because after all we've noted there are different lens.
Where one interprets a poster as saying quit standing right now, the poster thinks he said there is life after mlc. One says I've looked at my part in the marriage and during crisis and I'm happy now, another interprets that as it's not my fault so why are you saying it is? Maybe you didn't have a happy marriage but mine was before bd. Different lens. Different needs. But that doesn't give one the right to demand silence from the other. Because someday a newbie may become a middle timer and find their lens has shifted, stander or not, mlc believer or not.
I'm personal friends with many of those I mentored. If I had continued to treat them as mentees I doubt this would be so. Because people grow and relationship mature, and needs change as they should.
Lp
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I am more aware of the MLC lens and its possible ill effects on LBS than ever. I do not mean using it to understand our MLCer’s totally-out-there behaviours which came about almost overnight, and then leaving them alone to their business of figuring themselves out and LBS moving forward and living her life as best as she can.
Here is my latest thought:
I am musing if it is possible that the excessive use of the MLC lens for a prolonged period eventually fuses it to LBS’s eye. That is a scary thought, because, then, your life = MLC.
Do you think your MLC lens is temporary?
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I think so. And limited in application.
So, I might decide the MLC lens is useful for looking at the WTF stuff of BD or my xh's behaviour. But I think there is a natural time limit to that perhaps. When you have looked enough and are not getting any new info. When you have NC with your ex at all even indirectly so you only need it historically as in my case. I guess if something changes you might need to pick it up again, but yes I think it has a shelf life.
And I think for a while we overuse the MLC lens bc the impact of MLC is so huge. But perhaps that means we use it for nonMLC things for a while? Ourselves, our marriages, our lives, other people....
Maybe recovery is that with time we use the MLC lens less often and with a more precise focus if we do?
I remember my h saying once that if you go to an optician and after doing the normal checks, they open a small dusty drawer that squeaks bc it is rarely used, you know you have a problem. ( this was when my h had a soh and talked to me of course lol...he also had a detached retina at the time). Maybe the goal is that the MLC lens eventually migrates to that small dusty drawer :)
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Acorn,
For me, the lens is becoming more like reading glasses. I use them occasionally to read the fine print. In the beginning, when Dr Jekyl morphed into Mr Hyde, I relied on the lens nearly full time. As I have gained strength, it has become less necessary. I feel more confident. I don’t refer back to the articles daily, weekly, or even monthly - if something comes up and I have a question, or if I am feeling weak, I may go back to RCR and HB’s web sites to re-read. If I am blue and faltering, I will read something spiritually uplifting.
I think I may be entering a new LBS stage where I really have finally dropped the rope and surrendered it all. I’m not focusing on H, I have so much healing to do for me, and I have my kids I need to care for. Now that I have really released my H to himself, the MLC lens is getting far less use.
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Occurs to me belatedly that before the MLC lens, the one I used which was much more damaging was the 'my h' lens.....
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For me the biggest challenge is understanding whether my H is REALLY going through an MLC, or whether is it simply my way to soften the blow for me, or better put, whether it helps me avoid a possible reality which is that, yes, my H no longer loves me and wants to be with me...
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Occurs to me belatedly that before the MLC lens, the one I used which was much more damaging was the 'my h' lens.....
My XW was just perfect through "my W" lens… in every aspect. Now when I see her, sure, she is still georgeous but I am no longer attracted to her as I was. She has had her eye Lids lifted since BD but still Looks older than she did. She even seems to be 5cm smaller than she was, really, its shocking.
I on the otherhand am more confident and physically more atractive than I was before BD. She knows this, she gave me the look at S20s Birthday when I was having a photo taken with our Boys :o.
The lens makes everything look better than it is…. it filters all the $h!te out of whatever you see.
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For me the biggest challenge is understanding whether my H is REALLY going through an MLC, or whether is it simply my way to soften the blow for me, or better put, whether it helps me avoid a possible reality which is that, yes, my H no longer loves me and wants to be with me...
If he is or is not having an MLC, in what way would your responses to his behavior be different?
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For me the biggest challenge is understanding whether my H is REALLY going through an MLC, or whether is it simply my way to soften the blow for me, or better put, whether it helps me avoid a possible reality which is that, yes, my H no longer loves me and wants to be with me...
If he is or is not having an MLC, in what way would your responses to his behavior be different?
And tbh, it can be both can't it? The crisis version of my former h was experiencing some kind of weird WIW and didn't love me or want to be with me. Chicken or egg, both were true and his behaviour was unacceptable.
So, Nah's question is a good one imho.
I went through a few lens looking back...my h lens, my severely depressed h lens, depression lens, MLC lens. I used most of them to give me hope, deny reality and make excuses for him. Then I went to a scary crazy nasty person lens which I used to protect myself,.then back to a partial MLC/WIW lens where I maybe am now that I use to explain what I can't explain without it. Rightly or wrongly.
But without any lens at all, two things were self-evidently true. Something big and weird happened to my h which made him unrecognisable to all of us who knew him as a sane, decent, normal adult. And at some point he decided that my thoughts, feelings and basic wellbeing were completely irrelevant to him so that was how he behaved for a very long time. Can't make sense of either after 20 years but that did not stop them being how it was. Pretty confident that my xh did not use a 'bereaved wife with cancer' lens or even a 'decent human being who deserves basic respect' lens lol....I think I was a chair or a hated barrier to his new happy life to be destroyed ha ha
So, my survival and healing needed to be based on looking that reality right in the eye and making decisions accordingly. I say that now as if it was/is easy and we all know it really isn't. I do think you have to detach a bit and give up a bit to see what is in front of you. Maybe knowing what lens you are using helps?
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Looking at my H through the MLC lens was the only thing that made sense.
Either that, or he went totally bonkers.
If he went totally bonkers I would have walked away...fast.
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Looking at my H through the MLC lens was the only thing that made sense.
Either that, or he went totally bonkers.
If he went totally bonkers I would have walked away...fast.
Thunder, you have also said if your husband had an affair partner, you would have walked away fast, even if he had a MLC?
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That's true Nah, I would have.
I lived with a cheater for 18 years and promised myself I never would again. Not for even one day.
I was talking about the personality change more when I said that.
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I guess why I was asking, both you and Tinnat, why does it matter if it’s MLC or not? Okay, maybe them having a MLC can explain their behavior but should it change our boundaries?
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My truth - which I didn't want to be true tbh bc I loved my former h very much so I ignored it for a bit - was that the lies of ongoing infidelity was a deal breaker for me. Not saying it should be for others. Wasn't even the sex actually, it was the icky feeling of my h inviting a malevolent ghost into my life and sharing things about me and my life. Our old m was based on such a lot of trust and respect, I knew I could never be myself with him again. And I like being myself lol.
Took me until June 17 to know that in my bones lol....MLC creates a lot of distracting insanity along the way....but I would rather be alone than exposed like that. Nothing to do with love or why or even forgiveness...just my personal truth and what I need to be who I am in an intimate relationship. So I suppose that was my honest boundary and the point when I stopped wanting my h back in my life. Would have been nice to have a sane kind divorce, get some acknowledgement or even a goodbye...but uncomfortable as it was, that was my boundary. That I wasn't prepared to live out of my skin or feel unsafe for anyone else. No big gaslighting or lies, no cruelty, no abuse.
I am profoundly sad that my h became the kind of man who did those things, it was horrific to see bc he was a good human before despite his FOO...but he did and he is changed by doing them tbh, even his own life story is changed. He is not the man he was before self evidently; I have no idea who he will become or how he will learn to respect himself again but that's not my job or gift. I can still love him even, and feel sad about it, but it is the truth of things. My h loved me and chose me as his w bc of who I am actually...I did the same...he changed and took a different route, I didn't.
Forgiveness is not the same as reconciliation imho. And both people decide on their boundaries if they want to reconcile....although returning MLCers do seem to forget that lol.
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I guess why I was asking, both you and Tinnat, why does it matter if it’s MLC or not? Okay, maybe them having a MLC can explain their behavior but should it change our boundaries?
One of the first things I said on this forum was that my line in the sand was when it became physical. That has always been a boundary for me in any relationship. I just can't.
But I loved him so much, I really wanted to be able to look at it...to understand that it was ''mlc'' or some other thing. I wanted to be able to overlook it. But really I think I only coped with that broken boundary by burying it away.
It was hidden somewhere under all the other mounting problems. The fact he had broke the boundary was hidden under monster, and blackmailing, disrespect, crappy fatherhood. There were so many other problems and issues to look at...that it seemed irrelevant to look at that one. The most painful one.
In the end though..that buried box of a broken boundary... It is still there. And all the pain and emotion of it are locked in it. But I don't think I could ever unbury it and look at it to forgive him. I will just leave it under the pile of other stuff that he brought.
At this stage it just feels better to walk away from the whole pile of rubble if I am honest. Find a new patch of Earth and build something completely different.
So I guess ''MLC'' wasn't a big enough excuse for me to forgive that broken boundary.
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No I don't think it should necessarily change your boundaries.
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Ah, Morte, just what I meant but you said it better :)
That the buried box of what we 'just can't' is underneath all the other WTF stuff...and in time, we each find out what that box is for us.
Actually, you have helped me clarify my buried box. It's cruelty....like those stories of people who hurt babies or puppies...I don't get it but it repulses me. My h was a very kind and sensitive soul; my xh was cruel and seemingly ok with it. His new owife was cruel too so perhaps they are indeed a good match!
Sigh. Just had one of those memory flashes of who my h used to be. I really liked him. Sigh.
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An afterthought...bc it is important to me to be as honest as I can and not inadvertently add to others confusion lol.
About the MLC/WIW lens...or MY version of it and how it links to the cruelty issue.
I accept that cruelty - either bc of indifference, rage or extraordinary self absorption - is a hallmark of what we call MLC. Ergo, it makes sense that it was part of my MLC h's behaviour. It was not part of his persona before, in fact the opposite. I accept that too.
The bit of the MLC lens I have never been sure I believe entirely is that the original person is overlaid temporarily by the MLCness. Or not in my situation. I see it more as MLC creating a fracture that lets the shadow out, I suppose. And my h had something in him that was very dark indeed. That it was part of him previously unseen, probably by either of us. But he could live with it somehow without feeling horrified as I was. Took me a long time to accept the reality of that. Not easy given who he had been before.
I am open minded to events in an unknown future proving me wrong but that is how I see it now.
So I suppose I see - lens on and lens off - that it released something in him and having seen it, I have no idea how I could unsee it. It shocked me to my bones and seemed completely surreal. It broke my heart to swallow down. Or how he could unknow it either tbh. There is nothing in my situation that suggests we will ever see each other again let alone talk about these things as part of reconnecting in some way. I have no idea how one would do that in my situation and I am not seeking it. Remarried vanisher lol...besides, I don't think it's easy to buy 'sorry I wanted you to die but didn't really mean it bc I always loved you' cards!
But unlikely as it seems, I am open minded enough to know that others do find a way to accept the real horrors of behaviour unleashed in crisis and the reality of a post-crisis person trying to honestly repair themselves and their lives without denying what they did. I just can't conceive of it with my xh but that says nothing about anyone else's life. Our personal boundaries and red lines are just that - personal. And the boundaries we need with a spouse in crisis or an exspouse may not be the same ones we need if they have genuinely recovered from crisis. I am not convinced that most do actually...I think the experience changes them fundamentally or they just get stuck in the mess they made, jmo...but I think some do with God's grace and that's a good thing for everyone who got hurt. Just wanted to be clear on that.
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For me the biggest challenge is understanding whether my H is REALLY going through an MLC, or whether is it simply my way to soften the blow for me, or better put, whether it helps me avoid a possible reality which is that, yes, my H no longer loves me and wants to be with me...
I suggest that it’s a painful but necessary challenge LBS needs to face. No use burying our heads in the MLC ‘excuse’ so that we don’t have to consider some other possibilities for M breakdown. To do so would be delusional, emotionally immature or both. I was both for a while. Yeah...
I figure we all need to invest in some honest and serious pondering. Without that, who are we really kidding but ourselves?!
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How many times do these old timers need to repeat the same stuff over and over without thinking? UM described a comment from Acorn on her thread as being like "Live like they aren't coming back" but Acorn's H never left! So it makes zero sense to describe it that way.
Your example of “live like they’re not coming back” doesn’t work for live-ins. Is there a discussion thread for live-ins like there is for vanishers? If there isn’t, there should be.
I am only quoting these because I 100% disagree with this. I HAD a live in MLCer. The ONLY thing that saved my sanity was taking care of myself and living like he was going to do what ever he was going to do irrespective of anything I did. And he left anyway, so I eventually got to the same place where what I was already doing served me well when he became a vanisher.
So mine didn't stay forever, but he stayed for 19 long months. I still had to live like he was never coming back, because whomever this guy I was living with was not my husband. I treated him as I would any acquaintance: Courteous and polite. And took care of myself and S15 (at the time) because at the end of the day (and my life), the only person responsible for me is me.
Having a live in isn't "better". It's just a thing.
Just because they currently live in, it doesn't mean they will stay there.
Whether or not they live in has no bearing on where the focus should be (YOU).
One person's anecdotal evidence that might help someone else make it through with their sanity intact.
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I am more aware of the MLC lens and its possible ill effects on LBS than ever. I do not mean using it to understand our MLCer’s totally-out-there behaviours which came about almost overnight, and then leaving them alone to their business of figuring themselves out and LBS moving forward and living her life as best as she can.
Here is my latest thought:
I am musing if it is possible that the excessive use of the MLC lens for a prolonged period eventually fuses it to LBS’s eye. That is a scary thought, because, then, your life = MLC.
Do you think your MLC lens is temporary?
And it funny you should ask this. Right after BD, I reupholstered my couch and had the material cut out to reupholster the loveseat. I never got to the loveseat, other things came up. I recently started reupholstering the love seat. It's the same as the couch, same fabric, same bazillion staples to come out. And I was transported back to a few months after BD. Over four years later, and I was right back there. This caused me to step back and look at how I was feeling and thinking in a different way.
My MLC lens is no longer on XH, but shifts to my own fears of the repercussions his MLC will have on the children. I sometimes feel like a failure as a parent because they (at last say) think that this was a normal way to end a relationship, that people just fall out of love. That they blindly love their father whom, if they were not blood related to him, they would never even consider talking to. That they at one point felt the need to protect me from "what their father does" to the point of lying to me. That these poor kids are now set up for their own MLC because they know no better.
AND THERE IS NOTHING I CAN DO ABOUT IT. So it shifts to my likelihood of living the rest of my life alone, then to my sometimes anger that I have to do everything myself, since there is no one else to help, then it takes a shift for the better to all the things I have accomplished on my own.
The results of the MLC, whether you reconcile or not, leaves a permanent change in most people for good or for ill, sometimes for both in different areas. I, personally, don't think the MLC lens is temporary, I think it forever colors your world slightly differently than if it had never been in your life. And that is not necessarily a bad thing. It's again, just a thing, for each of us to decide what to do with it.
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Have you found OR that you can choose to remove the MLC lens for some bits of your life now if not others?
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OffRoad, I agree with you whole last paragraph, I also don't think the MLC lens is temporary.
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Have you found OR that you can choose to remove the MLC lens for some bits of your life now if not others?
It's an interesting question. If I am aware the MLC lens is affecting me, I can choose to deal with a situation in a different way, sure. But it still affects me and my actions. Are there facets of my life where the MLC lens may not apply? Sure. MLC does not and never has affected how I launder my clothes because that relies on muscle memory for me. I can do my entire laundry and not remember how I did it, it just happens. I don't specifically think of what temperature or anything because there is just a series of buttons I push and a sequence of things I do(Laundry might affect someone else, I don't know). So to get really, really specific, in my case the MLC lens colors some aspects of my life and not others, but the aspects it colors are always there. How else do you keep the lesson if you don't remember what you learned? It doesn't have to be forefront of your mind, but it's no different than being careful of a hot surface. See flame, know hot, don't touch. How much do I actually consciously think that?
I mean, for those who have found someone else, if they started behaving like your MLCer did, you'd recognize it I would think. But you don't sit there every minute of every day expecting it to happen. It's a background awareness, not a constant thought process. At least, that is how I see it. I see the MLC lens as any other thing that happens in your life: something you look through steadily for a time, then flick off and on to as it's now a part of your internal scenery. Not something to dwell on, something to be aware of.
Maybe the lens is like a bifocal you only use when you need it or accidentally glance that way. ;)
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The way I see it, we are all still looking through the MLC lens or we would not still be here talking about it after all these years.
For good or for bad.
It had a huge impact on our lives.
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I truly appreciate how the definition of ‘MLC lens’ and ‘seeing though MLC lens’ differs from person to person.
Some see it as being stuck in LBS victimhood, others, a more mature and wiser life perspective gained from having experienced MLC situation.
If I ever start another discussion thread, I think I will purposefully leave the topic very vague! ;D
I see plainly how each poster dug deep and shared their innermost thoughts. That’s how we learn from each other, I guess. Teach us more!