Midlife Crisis: Support for Left Behind Spouses
Archives => Archived Topics => Topic started by: WarriorPriestess on February 10, 2012, 06:54:40 PM
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Previous thread:
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=2119.0
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W called and texted several times tonight. When I finally called her back, I was very surprised to find her still at the house. She had ordered pizza and basically hung out here all evening. She said D11 wanted to stay home and S7 wanted to go with her, so she said she was going to stay until I got home. She kept dropping hints about the roads getting slick and I really think she was expecting me to ask her to stay but I didn't bite. I will not pursue. She also kept bringing up a movie she really wants to see and kept mentioning she had no one to go with. Again, I did not bite. She finally said she will invite some of the women she works with to go and I left it at that. She talked about tomorrow and seemed really excited. I sense....something, and inside myself I feel different. I cannot explain, but I will wait for her to pursue if it ever happens.
I've dropped the rope and don't worry about blowing it or hitting a home run tomorrow. I will just be me, and she will either want me or she won't. Pray for me.
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Hey Thundarr,
My wife and I have been doing things together and having some good times for a year now. There are ups and downs and and this is just going so slow, I have hope but I am still standing back and letting her come to me. I do know that you do not flip a switch and all is back to normal. We are both working towards the same goal but the process is slow. Maybe this is because we are still living together? Hfb
This perspective happens regardless of whether you're living together or not, the crisis is a slow process that is worked through one day at a time, one step at a time.
You've been doing very well, HFB over the past year; and honestly, the slower the process, the more likely it will complete fully.
There is danger in coming through the tunnel too fast at warp speed....ALL issues, and the aspects surrounding each issue must be faced, worked through, settled, and healed within before the crisis can be termed as "past".
As long as there are issues, the crisis continues; that's just the way it works It demands completion; plus change, growth and becoming within both people.
No two people who've navigated this trial will ever be the same people they were going in; and if they are, something's been "missed"; and in a matter of time, the crisis will rear it's ugly head again, picking right up where it left off; and the next experience is worse than the last.
This is because certain cycles were "ingrained" during the time it was put on "hold".
I had this experience; but it wasn't because my husband bargained to put it all on hold...it was because he tried to "bury" one issue, deep within himself. He'd hoped that he wouldn't have to face it, but it was not to be. He carried this issue right out of his first crisis, and it resurrected during the time of his Settling Down Process within the first two years after he exited the tunnel back in 2002.
When it caught up with him in the fall of 2004, I was already deep in Transition, myself, and I only caught the signs; but could do nothing about them...I could only handle me at that time.
LOL, my husband "shelved" that issue; and went to work bugging me to death in various ways, not unlike some of the LBS' I've seen here. :) He was afraid, and the further I distanced and detached from him, the more frightened he became.
I had my times of clarity; tried to explain to him that I had work to do within myself, but, honestly, he didn't understand. In some ways, he actually caused ME to stay in Transition LONGER, because he would not leave me alone.
He kept wanting to know how long it would be(question sounds familiar, right?). I kept telling I didn't know, and I honestly didn't know....I had so much being thrown at me, and facing it was time consuming. I was badly damaged during that time; I had my own issues from childhood, etc. to face.
I did find that my husband was one of my issues; and I worked it out within myself, but I didn't run, hide, nor do anything that dishonored myself nor him. I just couldn't fall to that kind of temptation, and many nights, I did pray for death; the pain was so bad within myself not to mention the deep depression and withdrawal I was experiencing within.
I cried a LOT during that time; I was very miserable; and it was not my husband's fault, this was within myself. I don't remember blaming him for what was going on with me, I was just angry because he was pressuring me to 'return' to the person I had once been...and this was the person I had become during his first crisis.
I didn't reattach myself to him all at once, it was a process I went through that started, as I recall, after I took my final issue to him to help me with. My Intuition had been very active the whole time, and it told me he could help me with it. And, he did.
I made it through all the way; Menopause first, then the emotional battle, and when it was all said and done, I had been "in" for 7 1/2 years....I came out three years ago in 2009, to find my husband still NOT done...still struggling with the one issue that consisted solely of Replay....the dress matched, the talk matched, and he was self medicating; spending large amounts of money...and I was on the verge of filing a divorce when I clearly saw all of that.
But, you know, the Lord intervened with me once again, just as He'd done so years ago, and the long and the short of it was this: I spent another year doing as my Intuition/the Lord instructed me to do; and then, I "knew" he was going to be brought down by circumstances.
I got led back here onto the internet in February of 2010; and on the 17th, he fell and broke his ankle, bringing forth even more clearly the 7 year old child who was the issue of his parent's divorce. This event was the catalyst that brought him out of this for the final time....it took over a year and a half for him to complete the "coming out" within this second bout of crisis.
We worked through the process once again of reconnecting, reconciling, and, eventually, rebuilding our marriage....the latter is STILL a work in progress, you NEVER stop building/rebuilding your marriage. It won't build itself, and it takes constant work to keep it all together.
But, as of late August of 2011, he was DONE, I am DONE; all that is left is living our lives.
I'm not perfect, he's not perfect, but we have each other; and I can tell you, he's not the same man I knew, and I'm not the same woman he knew. We grew up together, and are still growing. :)
I'm very glad for the experience, I learned a great deal out of it. I have no regrets about having stayed and I'm glad we continued to work it out, although he and I wanted to quit many times. :)
We are what each other knows and loves; and after 26 years, neither one of us would have another....he and I have both said before that we are "too old" to "train" another; so we stick together, holding hands, walking forward into a really bright future. :)
No, we don't talk "R" talk, it's not needed unless a major change comes along that's going to affect the both of us. We just live one day at a time, and we are each other's best friend. :)
The point of all this is that coming out of the crisis takes a LONG time; patience, hope, faith, and love are constant virtues that are exercised.
There is hope as long as you love your MLC spouse and are willing to stand...I would hope that none of you end up in this as long as I and my husband did; but the journey itself really does depend on the individual going through, and the issues that are within each person they must face for themselves.
No situation is EVER hopeless; hope can be found, even in the worst of times. :)
You're going to be just fine, regardless of what the future holds going forward....the road is long, but you can walk/navigate this. If I can do it, I know you can, too. :)
Take care,
HB
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JUst wanting in on this thread...
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This post is just to emphasize something about MLC that I have learned and believe to be very true. My desire is for this information from HB and RCR to help each LBS cope and take the focus off the day to day behaviors of their MLCer as much as possible.
the slower the process, the more likely it will complete fully.
There is danger in coming through the tunnel too fast at warp speed
From RCR's article on Acceptance
If your goal is speed, it will fail. But most of you will need to learn that through experience.
and the link to RCR's article Midlife Crisis Takes Time
http://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/standing-actions_progress_mlc-time.html
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Sorry for the hijack.....
HB I just want to say thank you.
SKxx
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Hi Hb and all,
This was a quote"
(My wife and I have been doing things together and having some good times for a year now. There are ups and downs and and this is just going so slow, I have hope but I am still standing back and letting her come to me. I do know that you do not flip a switch and all is back to normal. We are both working towards the same goal but the process is slow. Maybe this is because we are still living together? Hfb)
I agree with the slowness of the process of this, I know that I am not ready, I still have work to do for me. Sadly it is hard to do the work that needs to be done when life continues each day and your focus is always on many different things each and everyday, it is not easy (as I say flip that switch) to focus on just one thing as the world turns.
I feel my W and I are doing very good, we are not close to where I hope to be but the positives far outweigh the negatives these days. Two days ago I pressed for R talks with my W and boy did that blow up in my face, I did not hear her say what I wanted to hear so I got mad and just and kind of lost it. My W wanted to discuss it but I let the anger get in my head and had to shut down. We talked about it the next day and I apologized. We will be there one day and I hope to enjoy what remains of this journey as much as possible. Hfb
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the slower the process, the more likely it will complete fully.
There is danger in coming through the tunnel too fast at warp speed....ALL issues, and the aspects surrounding each issue must be faced, worked through, settled, and healed within before the crisis can be termed as "past".
As long as there are issues, the crisis continues; that's just the way it works It demands completion; plus change, growth and becoming within both people.
Read this entire quote in FULL; finishing the crisis in FULL truly does depend on facing ALL and EVERYTHING.
I faced it ALL when it was me; I got everything I was supposed to get, resolved ALL, and I healed completely within....I don't face recurring bouts of Transition.
You can't hide your head in the sand, and just "wait" on your MLC spouse; you as the LBS have growing, changing and becoming to do, too.
Otherwise, you're going to see some cycling going on within your situation....both people must do what they are called upon to do.
I'm a true advocate of the journey that must be taken by both people; partly because I've been there before, and partly, because I've seen the difference between situations who took the journey, and those who didn't bother; who really thought they could just "get by" without it ....you'll find out for certain as time goes on, and various aspects either drag on, remain the same, or you find yourself "cycling" back around to a place you've been in before, because change was in front of you and you tried to "bypass" it ,or your MLC spouse tried the same thing.
Honestly, you really DON'T have to take my word for it; you'll see what I mean when you get there, whatever type of situation you're in.
I'm not one for throwing out hypotheticals; I do speak of what I know to be true, because I've seen it in writing, or someone has spoken with me about it over time, or I've seen it myself directly.
Hopingfourbetter has really "got this", as you read his recent quote:
I agree with the slowness of the process of this, I know that I am not ready, I still have work to do for me. Sadly it is hard to do the work that needs to be done when life continues each day and your focus is always on many different things each and everyday, it is not easy (as I say flip that switch) to focus on just one thing as the world turns.
I feel my W and I are doing very good, we are not close to where I hope to be but the positives far outweigh the negatives these days. Two days ago I pressed for R talks with my W and boy did that blow up in my face, I did not hear her say what I wanted to hear so I got mad and just and kind of lost it. My W wanted to discuss it but I let the anger get in my head and had to shut down. We talked about it the next day and I apologized. We will be there one day and I hope to enjoy what remains of this journey as much as possible. Hfb
HFB, not meaning to single you out, and embarrass you as such, but you're at a place where what you're writing reflects an actual "good" place in the crisis for both you and your wife at this time.
You're both doing very well, from what you've been describing..and for what it's worth, I can understand getting angry when your wife doesn't tell you what you would want to hear...but rest assured she'll continue to process herself and her state of mind will continue to change for the better as time goes on.
It all takes time, just as the process takes time to complete. :)
It does come to a point where you realize and become very aware that you cannot just "flip a switch" and everything's automatically going to be all right; although, like you said, the positives begin to outweigh the negatives in spite the journey left to take for you both.
It's really hard to listen to a person in crisis speak their own truths as they are reflected at various stages of the journey, but understand these will change, given time, and as they mature, and see things in a whole different way over the same aspect of time.
Right or wrong, she is where she is, and you are where you are.
That is also why space is still important to allow the person in crisis to reach their own conclusions, and "R" talks aren't really necessary; these will come as time and the crisis makes its changes within you both.
You can't make someone say or feel what you want them to say or feel; they have to reach this on their own, or not...it's up to them, just as standing, and working on yourself is up to you.
My husband became VERY angry at one point because I didn't "feel" what he thought I should feel; I was struggling very hard with negative feelings, and he didn't give me the same courtesy I had given him....but at the time, I didn't really remember a whole lot of what I had gone through with him, either....I was that consumed with myself...for quite awhile, I saw him as someone was literally driving me crazy with all of the pressure he was exerting on me to tell him I loved him.
He got very upset when I told him I didn't know how I felt; and as emotionally distanced as I was from him, I felt numb and disconnected from his anger, but the pressure I felt directly, and it upset ME.
I did remember telling him in one of the moments of clarity I had that he needed to remember that his feelings had "taken a hike" for a time, and he needed to respect what I felt at that time.
That just scared him worse, and when someone is scared, they get angrier, and don't want to listen.
I always said he didn't walk away from me, just as I didn't walk away from him; each of us had that option at any time, but neither of us took it.
Regardless of all he put me through, I put him through quite a bit of heartache, too, not out of vindictiveness, but because this is the way the Transition/Crisis works; it seems to be a true starting over of growth, change and becoming that occurs within.
Within two years of going into Transition, I'd forgotten what I'd learned before, believe it or not, and looking back, I can see where I was taking the journey once again, but from another aspect.
I was an awful, awful person during that time, and a true emotional mess within myself.....I have spoken of having had as many painful issues as a typical MLC'er, but I never crossed certain lines that would have made my Transition a crisis, but it was a very painful journey for me.
To put it all in a nutshell, I was emotionally, physically, and mentally abused, damaged in various ways during my childhood, and I had many "children of the issues" that came to visit. I was severely depressed most of the time. The pain was so deep, so heart rending and wrenching that I could never get away from it; and I was trying so hard to function in spite of it all, and I had various emotional problems nearly the entire time.
I thought of walking away at one point, starting over somewhere else. That didn't happen; not that it couldn't have, but I kept being counseled by my Intuition, and our son sat down and talked to me about simply keeping what I had.
I have various memories that come to life at times; not because of guilt, but because the experience taught me a great many aspects that also apply to the crisis.
If I had not faced everything, I would have done as my husband did; had another bout of Transition to catch an aspect left over...but I did get it all.
I never told my husband everything I experienced, and as it stands, I probably never will....part of the forgetting he went through has also encompassed my going through The Change...he really thinks I haven't gone through yet, LOL...said I hadn't got there, that I'm too young for this aspect, LOL.
And no, by not telling all, I didn't "get out of" anything, I still had to face, resolve, and eventually heal myself....so no one really "gets out of it" whether it's spoken of or not.
I saw my husband do some serious facing within the last two years; some of it came out, some of it didn't...
But, even at this time, as I see us both moving forward, the positives continue to outweigh the negatives, as life takes hold, and becomes better as time goes on. :)
I hope this helps, too.
Love,
HB
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quoteWithin two years of going into Transition, I'd forgotten what I'd learned before, believe it or not, and looking back, I can see where I was taking the journey once again, but from another aspect./color]
I relate to this very much I know I am having to relearn and process things that I processed 16 months ago for me it is easy to get things twisted. As my W cycles so did I, the ups and downs and I would hope the ups would stay and slack off on what needed to get done.
I feel fortunate because my wife does get the process I think, because she says to me I still need work. I really think I could be the one that went off the deep end sometimes or at least I do when she says that to me. Hfb/color]
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quoteWithin two years of going into Transition, I'd forgotten what I'd learned before, believe it or not, and looking back, I can see where I was taking the journey once again, but from another aspect./color]
I relate to this very much I know I am having to relearn and process things that I processed 16 months ago for me it is easy to get things twisted. As my W cycles so did I, the ups and downs and I would hope the ups would stay and slack off on what needed to get done.
I feel fortunate because my wife does get the process I think, because she says to me I still need work. I really think I could be the one that went off the deep end sometimes or at least I do when she says that to me. Hfb/color]
HFB,
For what it's worth, I really think the two of you are doing fine; and what your wife said triggered memories of me trying to explain to my husband that I still needed to work within myself, his fear dictated his responses, or more accurately reactions to what I kept trying to tell him.
You know what's going on, and that says a great deal for you. You're still trying, when maybe others would have given up.
Don't give up; the end will come, and you're seeing yourself in the same kind of light I'd once seen myself in when my husband was so deep within the first crisis....I could have gone off the deep end myself, but didn't.
You know, I can remember posting on DB at one time, wondering if my husband would stay with me if I were acting as erratic as he was.....I found out at that later time, the answer was YES, as he did stay with me in spite of my behavior during my Transition.
Yet, his crisis did, indeed, trigger my transition, but mine would have come anyway, and I know this, as well...I didn't do enough work on me during his crisis, and I had to finish what was started back at that time.
While I don't "owe" him one thing; I know he really DOES love me, and he will always love me, just as I will always love him. :) His actions proved his love when I was at my worst.
I said this once, and I'll say it again; the fact my husband didn't leave me hanging said a whole lot for him. If hanging in there, and hoping for a better day isn't love, I don't know what is.
It doesn't matter that I had to do the bulk of the work to do to bring us both through; somewhere within the both of us, at different times, remained a love that no one could come between.
It didn't look like it a lot of time, owing to the actions on his part at one point, mine at another point, but we committed to one another, and in spite of that happened, we stuck together, and never let go of each other, neither did we lose sight of each other.
So, you figure if the MLC is the worst thing you'll ever face in your life, the fact that you continue walking the road, hoping and having faith that this will end some day; speaks volumes for the both of you who keep right on keeping on in spite of what you see, hear, and experience. :)
Take care of yourselves and each other. :)
Hugs,
HB
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Ok HB,
I have to say that one thing that has really been bothering is going through this process without resolving my issues, after reading on here from others that we need to fix or heal within ourselves. How do we know we have healed enough to move on? I feel that we are constantly working on ourselves and I do not think that it stops. Then the things that I have worked through for my W AND I are small things in the big picture I have worked on things that I needed to do for my W or me. I do not feel a whole lot different than I did,I felt I was always a good man with a few flaws, I have always been a good honest man for the most part. I have this image of being a good honest man to my peers and and associates. I never understood why they felt that way. But I accept it. My W says that her family would never think that I could do anything wrong and that I know bothers her.
You have my mind working overtime on what else I need to do to fix what needs to be fixed, Agh. Hfb
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HFB,
I truly envy you and I hope you one day realize how fortunate you are. I think the fact that your W has stayed with you and is working through this is proof positive that her love for you is strong and will endure all that you two will face. I think you will do the same, my friend, as your love for her is evident in all of your posts.
For me, it's different. My W's love for me was not enough for her to stay and I see now that there is little hope of her "finding" enough love for me to come home again some day. I wish it could have been different, and if I had listened to her more over the years and been more honest with myself about my own faults and worked to correct them things may be different for me right now as she may still be home. But, now it's too late and something that was great is gone and unlikely ever to return. I'm glad you haven't and aren't making the mistakes I did and I hope and pray your ending is a happy one. I will pray for you, my friend.
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You've been doing very well, HFB over the past year; and honestly, the slower the process, the more likely it will complete fully.
There is danger in coming through the tunnel too fast at warp speed....ALL issues, and the aspects surrounding each issue must be faced, worked through, settled, and healed within before the crisis can be termed as "past".
As long as there are issues, the crisis continues; that's just the way it works It demands completion; plus change, growth and becoming within both people.
This certainly puts a positive spin, at least in my mind, on the length of time my H is taking. I remember reading something similar in one of RCR's articles as well. Thanks HB! :)
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Hey Thundarr,
If you really must know I was envious of you and your day yesterday, I hate to burst your thought but your wife is not going to go to far away. I sense things will work there way out, there is no doubt she is seeing change in you. A month ago you were a bitter angry man, you have done a complete 180. the good thing is now you can see past the anger and really try to work on you, just do it. I personally think in your case that absence will help for you two. Only time will tell, my prayers are with you brother. Hfb
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You have my mind working overtime on what else I need to do to fix what needs to be fixed, Agh. Hfb
I would encourage you not to dwell on this. It is my opinion that sometimes we can take the need to fix ourselves or work on ourselves overboard. There are some LBS who begin to worry that it is their flaws that led to their spouse's MLC.....and I don't agree with that.
This is from RCR's article "Why Stand?" and I think it gives good insight.
Your spouse's affair and MLC are not your fault, but you were not perfect and can always find place for growth and improvement.
and from RCR's article Midlife Crisis Takes Time
This crisis is not your fault; it would have happened regardless of your behaviour.
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DGU,
It is hard when we read this is what needs to be done, but I will agree with you, I will take it slow. Hfb
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Thundarr...you cannot blame yourself for what she is doing..period...if you must ..take yourself out of the equation and look at how she has treated your kids ..is that ok ? is that their doing ?..no..
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I am very thankful for all of your help and your wisdom in this is far greater than mine. DGU is part Vulcan if you ask me. I totally agree that we should not stress on working in ourselves as that implies fault on our part. Taking time to focus on ourselves takes our focus off the MLCer and that is the greatest benefit as DGU pointed out in a previous thread.
I do not blame myself for her crisis or actions. I only said that had her love for me been stronger or had I handled her early crisis differently then she may have never moved out. I stand behind that even now but maintain that her battle is her own. I know my life is less chaotic and I am very thankful for yesterday. I think any of us would give all to have things back to normal if only for a few hours and I hope another day comes. I knew there would be a price, as there always is.
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Ok HB,
I have to say that one thing that has really been bothering is going through this process without resolving my issues, after reading on here from others that we need to fix or heal within ourselves. How do we know we have healed enough to move on? I feel that we are constantly working on ourselves and I do not think that it stops.
You're absolutely right working on yourself is a never ending process, but it's an individual type process, and you will know when you are healed enough to move forward.
Then the things that I have worked through for my W AND I are small things in the big picture I have worked on things that I needed to do for my W or me. I do not feel a whole lot different than I did,I felt I was always a good man with a few flaws, I have always been a good honest man for the most part. I have this image of being a good honest man to my peers and and associates. I never understood why they felt that way. But I accept it. My W says that her family would never think that I could do anything wrong and that I know bothers her.
I was always a good person, HFB, but I took the time to figure out what it was within myself that needed growth and improvement; and I worked on it. None of us are perfect, but only you would know what needs additional work within.
Accepting yourself, flaws and all is one of the important parts of this journey within.
The growth and change that results from that growth is for YOU, not anyone else. Your wife is changing for herself, and while you don't have to accept the changes she is making, I honestly suggest you accept her for what she is, not for what you would want her to be.
They don't come out of this the same, as I well know,but then, I didn't come out of this the same, either, and I'm glad of it. My husband came out changed, better for the experience; and none of the "old patterns" of relating came out with us...we both became new and improved people as a result.
Very little of the "old" remained; just the core personality aspects within us both that didn't hurt anything. For example, my husband is a quiet soul, whereas I'm more outgoing, and like to talk.
One of the most important things that changed within him was the fact that he doesn't allow people to run him over anymore; if someone does something he doesn't like, they will know about it. He learned to set good boundaries, and he learned "self care" in a way he'd never known before.
He's no longer a "people pleaser", nor does he try to pressure, control, nor manipulate me. He will give me advice if I ask, but he no longer tries to fit me in a box of his own creation, nor does he try to "fix" my problems; he listens more than he did before. He doesn't see me as an extension of him like he did before his crisis.
He will not allow anyone to mistreat me; he will step in and protect me in that way(he didn't before, I was always on my own).
He's become a real husband in a way that I had to adjust to....and his love for me is even different, I have value to him; I'm not just someone he puts on a shelf, and brings down when it's "convenient" for him.
We became sure of each other in a way that was not possible before; and we are connected much differently than before the crisis happened...not to mention we no longer have power struggles, neither of us is "above" the other, we are true equals in a marriage that is very well balanced.
I recognize my husband clearly as my "Head of Household" just as the Bible speaks of, and he has truly become the biblical husband that God speaks of in His Word. I'm his "helpmeet", but he's not "above" me in that aspect.
We render due benevolence to each other as we are supposed to; and this was also a positive change. I paint a true picture of how things are now, and though, it was a long road to get there, it was worth the journey. :)
Oh, and for what it's worth, we do argue sometimes, but you don't live with someone and not argue with them; it's HOW you argue that makes a whole lot of difference; and we fight fairly, and compromise, when it's needed. :)
We continue to change and grow within the safety of our relationship, but that is a given, considering the door was opened by the crisis that woke us both up to something that will never end; and that is our continuing to grow, change, become and mature.
The most important aspect of all is the fact that God still works within our marriage, and I put Him FIRST above all things. I cannot expect Him to be the "Spiritual Head of Household" if I were to put Him in a box, and only take Him out when I need Him....that would not be right of me.
He does continue to work within my husband as He sees fit; He also continues to work within me, and He watches out after both of us.
You've changed a great deal, HFB, and don't realize it, and more change will come for you both as time goes on.
But change is not a bad thing, in fact, it's all good, and as time goes on, the both of you will continue to grow, even past the crisis at hand.
You have my mind working overtime on what else I need to do to fix what needs to be fixed, Agh. Hfb
Again, only YOU would know what's left to work on for yourself; and believe me, you will KNOW when you've gotten it all for yourself.
What your wife did to respond/react to the problems within the marriage is NOT your fault, not at all. She could have opened her mouth and talked about it, but she didn't; she chose a path that led to more trouble than it would have been IF she'd just talked about it.
But would you have understood? Probably not, as up until the bomb drop, ALL of us thought things were just fine, when they actually weren't.
I wasn't even told directly there was a problem that needed my attention..it was not until I began my own journey to wholeness and healing that I began to really understand that change, growth, and becoming were needed within myself in order to help him grow.
While you don't exactly dwell on it, you don't hide from it, either; putting one's head in the sand and hoping it will all blow over or go away won't work.
So, you learn to face it head on, make the changes and growth that are sufficient for yourself, and leave your MLC spouse to their own devices, as they must take this same journey, only at a different time.
It doesn't matter what you did going into this crisis; it would have happened, regardless of what you'd done/didn't do, as the basis for the crisis lies within the Transition/MLC'er....but what you do AFTER you figure out what's happened will make all the difference going forward.
You fix yourself, and once you fix yourself, bringing about change within you, this will trigger change within the MLC'er in a positive way, as you'll see clearly what is wrong within them. As you change, you will see change in them, as what one person does affects the other.
Going back into "old" patterns of relating will not work because these will trigger another crisis down the road...that's why I say, you are the ONLY one who KNOWS what needs to be fixed within yourself in order to trigger true change within your MLC spouse...and each person is different in this journey.
MLC extracts a change from BOTH people, not just one.
I hope this further helps. :)
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OK Thundarr,
I am very thankful for all of your help and your wisdom in this is far greater than mine. DGU is part Vulcan if you ask me. I totally agree that we should not stress on working in ourselves as that implies fault on our part. Taking time to focus on ourselves takes our focus off the MLCer and that is the greatest benefit as DGU pointed out in a previous thread.
There is always STRESS involved when working on yourself; there is a great deal of work you must do for yourself.
I knew it wasn't my fault; but at the same time, I had various memories come back of people who had tried to teach me the lessons of life LONG before his crisis, but I didn't listen; partly because I didn't understand, and partly because I was a stubborn woman who thought she knew better.
And even as I fought the beginning of my own journey, I thought that if I had to work on me, then I had caused his crisis, when I did NOT cause anything....my ongoing question was "WHY do I have to work on ME, when it was HIM that did so wrong?"
Well, as I found out, change has to start somewhere, and it might as well be within me in order to hopefully "trigger" change in him.
Do you have any clue of the fear I dealt with as I began to work on myself, saw the areas within myself that needed change, growth, improvement so I could become what God meant for me to be?
Of course not; you weren't ME....somewhere within my journey I came to know that it was possible my husband might NOT accept what I would become once I got even part of the way through; and that SCARED me beyond belief.
But, I bravely worked my way forward anyway; this was for ME, not him...and I knew if I didn't complete this journey, I would take the same problems I had within forward, and face this again in one aspect or another.
I had to learn that true change started within me, and if he accepted what I became, that was great, if not, I had to learn to gracefully accept that he might decide to walk away; and find someone who would put up with the aspects in him that might be resistant to change, growth, and becoming within himself.
Change is for OURSELVES, NOT for the MLC'er; and if we don't change, grow, and become, we will stay in a rut of our own making; and you can be sure you'll take these problems forward into another bout of crisis.
I did NOT like change at all then; change to me was scary, unknown, and it seemed that I would never be able to figure it all out....but I did; and I learned to like this kind of change for myself; as my own changes DID bring about changes in him. He fought them at first, and for awhile I thought I might lose him.
Fortunately, he did begin to accept me as I continued to change, and he did change in response; this was a hard battle to overcome; as even I faced various aspects within myself that called for change, growth, becoming, and most importantly, I had to forgive myself for being human, and learn to move forward within the "new" person that was working her way through.
The Lord showed me these things as I worked my way through the basic, the intermediate, and the advanced aspects of the LBS journey.
He also guided me through various stages of growth; teaching me various aspects, and I documented these as they occurred on DB back in 2002. They took the form of the Sermons I wrote back in the day.
The work on ourselves NEEDS to be done; and it brings on its own brand of stress within ourselves.
Change, growth, and becoming is NEVER stress free, but this stress CAN be channeled into positive growth, which releases a great deal of stress once you begin to relate in ways that are easier because you begin allowing people to be themselves, while you learn to be your own person.
I never realized how much stress I actually stayed under trying to please Tom, d!ck and Harry; until I stopped trying to please others, gave when I wanted to give, and just learned to take care of and please myself.
I learned to keep out the bad, and let in the good; and in that process, released another aspect of stress within me, as well.
I also learned that I did NOT have to do anything I did NOT want to do; and that even made things easier on me, as I wasn't stretched thin any more.
I lost a lot of "friends" during that time, but it wasn't a loss of any kind; for the first time in my life, I realized I was being "used", and this is not a good way to live.
I spend a great deal of time alone, and I'm fine with that, as I know I don't have to have companionship to survive on my own.
I am who I am, and what I became; and this becoming continues in various aspects...once the straightforward issues are faced, resolved, and healed, it then becomes all about the aspects, as you continue your own self improvement for the rest of your life.
As we become older, we learn more, grow in various other ways, mature in still others; you finish in one aspect, begin another; and it's ongoing...and if you stop growing, well, you're dead by that time.
Food for thought. :)
I do not blame myself for her crisis or actions. I only said that had her love for me been stronger or had I handled her early crisis differently then she may have never moved out. I stand behind that even now but maintain that her battle is her own. I know my life is less chaotic and I am very thankful for yesterday. I think any of us would give all to have things back to normal if only for a few hours and I hope another day comes. I knew there would be a price, as there always is.
For what it's worth, what's done is done; and as far as her love for you being stronger, well NO MLC'er even KNOWS what love is all about.
Thundarr, I nearly "lost" my husband during the first two years of his crisis, and I didn't know that until later on, as the Lord enlightened me.
As my husband was different, his love for me was completely gone for that time, buried deep, and he'd even purged me from his mind for a time....I didn't even exist for him until certain moments of clarity that brought me back to his attention for a short period of time.
If it had not been for the Lord, who kept the small flame of my husband's love in existence within his heart, and somehow prevented him from purging me completely from his heart, I would not be married now, and I know this.
God is more than able to work within people's hearts, even though He will NOT tamper with people's minds.
My husband spoke when he broke of having very little love for me during that first two years, not to mention NO respect for me at all. I was there, taken for granted, in his way at times, and his love just wasn't there for me.
He said that he knew I had always been there for him; but his feelings had, indeed, changed for me, in a negative way.
His space was gotten from his job, where he was in and out of the house; and I was "out of sight, out of mind" during that time.
He said that when I turned my back on him late that second year, changed my behavior toward him, and refused to allow him to disrespect me anymore it started working on him, and he figured if he didn't get his crap together, he was going to lose me.
This was the awakening he had; but it still took time before I knew he was waking up to himself.
Now, the Lord showed me He was adding love to my husband's heart, as what is within the heart, the mind will follow; and He instructed me to pray for Him to work within his heart.
First loves never die they say; but I'm here to tell you, the Lord did His part in helping me; not only at that time, but in the times going forward.
I never thought of getting someone else, dating or any of those kinds of aspects; when one is married; they are MARRIED, and the Lord would not have been pleased with me if I'd even allowed my thoughts to go down that path, as it would have been a wrong kind of path.
I always knew how the Lord works...it is HIS way or none at all. He encouraged me to stand, but He did NOT make me; He reminded me many times that this was MY decision, but also kept His Promise in front of me.
I complained this was taking too long so many times, and He would again, remind me of MY decision.
The only way out is THROUGH; there are NO shortcuts; and if you decide to keep standing, there are NO detours to get you to the end any faster.
More food for thought. :)
Take care. :)
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Thank you for your posts, HB. But, other than the aspect of not focusing on your spouse I see little point in putting any extra effort into working on yourself if you were okay with you to begin with. The reason I say this is because in my case, as with most all of us here, the end result of all this will most likely be that either our spouses do not return or do so much damage we would not want them to anyway. Happy endings (especially for male LBSers) seem to be as rare as people struck by lightning. Just as Rover says, the female MLCer becomes the enemy and the purge of love is generally thorough and complete. I believe this is especially true now with females who move out. The "clean break@ philosophy is akin to a Black Widow in that the H is devoured and $h!te out to make room for a more desirable mate. Perhaps it's evolutionary as opposed to good versus evil but who knows.
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Thundarr, I was OK and happy with myself as well, but regardless of MLC it is always worth putting effort into working on yourself for the sake of yourself. Don't do it for anybody else. It will make you feel better about you, and if W never returns at least someone else can have the benefit of the changes.
re- post from LT..... sharing myself about.
Surprised nobody else has brought it up, but tomorrow it is Valentines Day...... my BD was last March so this is the first since and I am in a quandary . Obviously W is at home so it is more difficult and awkward to ignore these things. Should I let it go as it is pushing, or should I just give her the card that I carefully selected that doesn't mention love or relationships. I am edging towards that..... but advice is welcomed.
EDIT: Valentines Day thread - http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=708.0 - OldPliot
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HB- Thanks for your posting. Question for you, you spoke about going through your transition, and in my mind, a transition is just a milder form of the 'crisis. Am I right?
You spoke about you needing to change, and you were not sure if your H will ACCEPT who you would become. I must admit that I've not gone through a transition or a crisis, so I am not sure I completely understand.
So, a person in transition and crisis is AWARE of what they are doing. They know they need to change, and they DECIDE to change. They should be AWARE of the pain and destruction being caused, and they do it anyway - because they feel it's the right thing to do to make themselves FEEL better. They are RESPONSIBLE for their actions because they have a CHOICE.
Many write like the MLCer is lost, and being 'mind controlled' by aliens, being that they HAVE to go through this journey... must go through it, no way around it, and no short cuts...
What is your take? In your transition, and your H's crisis, do you believe that you both knew you were going through 'something', while you were in it?
My W seem to indicate that she 'knew' that this will take some time... she knew it was not normal that she didnt remember any good times that we had.... I was willing to work with her.... but I didnt really know about MLC, and I was not patient.
Over a period of 3 months, she went from trying to figure it out to saying she's made up her mind.... and she doesn't know why she said the things she said, she tried to be rational and explain that she just doesn;'t love any more because of my long list of flaws. All part of the scriot.
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I've posted about this in the past, and I agree with Thundarr. I have specific things I would change about myself. I am short tempered and I sometimes take things for granted. These happen to also be the flaws my STBX has pointed out to me.
I will change these.
But, I still don't get what many are saying about 'Looking at yourself' 'work on yourself' 'Grow, take your own 'JOURNEY" to wholeness'. Is this to force ourselves to go through a midlife transition?
When the need to go through this transition happens, how will we know it? How will we feel?
Welsh- I had same question re Valentine's Day. I went all out last year - it was right after BD, we went on a date... a nice restaurant, a comedy club for some drinks... we had a great time, and at the end of the 'date', she still told me 'I dont know if I want to be with you'. I was crushed. Not that I thought that a date was enough for someone to fall in love with you - but it's the most painful thing, trying to make your own wife love you again, when deep down, she was repulsed by me.
I also sent her a card, and a gift for our 'anniversary', a gift from the kids for Christmas... a text 'Happy Birthday' on her birthday.... All to no response or acknowledgement, no thank you, no Merry Christmas, and on my Birthday, no Happy Birthday.
This Valentine's Day, there will be no acknowledgement from me except my notice that there will be $350 less in her biweekly deposit because she refuses to pay our real estate taxes as agreed.
She has no empathy, no feelings, no ability to distinguish right from wrong, and she even 'grinned' when she told me she didn't care the house will go into foreclosure.
I don't think I like the person whom my STBX has become. The more time that goes by, the more apathy she show towards me, the more I care less about our old relationship.
The more we talk about the D, and the process, and the negotiation on the finances on the D, the less I care about any possible R. As I look at our relationship of 23 years, the more I see that there were flaws in her that I just 'accepted', and I know have a more objective look at our relationship, without 'obligation'. Our D will likely be final in two weeks, and if I were to be able to go back in time, would I have chosen to marry her? My kids aside, I don;t think I would have chosen to marry her.
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Thundarr,
Thank you for your posts, HB. But, other than the aspect of not focusing on your spouse I see little point in putting any extra effort into working on yourself if you were okay with you to begin with.
Do you really feel this way? Believe this way? Actually, I think that you do. That is really sad and too bad. Read through your posts, my friend. It seems to me that you are ruled by your emotions....allowing the crisis of another person (your wife) to bring you down, up and sideways. (I see this, as this is how I was......and could still be if I allowed it). I write this with no disrespect towards you.....as I truly would like you to be able to see yourself as others do.
Were you really "okay" to begin with? Well, I honestly thought that I was. I was a good person. I cared about people. Took care of my family......my job......my house. I didn't lie, steal or cheat. I was "okay" to begin with, sure....... But I was also self righteous, a nag, I pushed my kids to "succeed" (not in the best of ways), I took my relationship for granted.......I would think from the outside, I appeared to be a pretty good person - but I wasn't happy....not really. When I look back, with the blinders off - I wasn't "okay" to begin with.
Thundarr, you appear to me to be a pretty conflicted person. A loving father....a good friend......a kind human being, a caring husband - then your wife does some typical MLC action or says a typical MLC comment - and you are plunged into dispair, writing vengeful words of anger. Maybe you keep all these to yourself - only sharing them on the forum....but I get the feeling that your kids see this anger - if not in words, then in behavior.
There is an LBS man at work that I see occasionally - walking through the parking lot. His anger, hurt, dispair are like a cloud surrounding him. I didn't even have to hear about what had happened to him - you can see it in his walk, how he carries himself - the look in his eyes. He and his children are at odds (they live with him) and I can see why. Their mother has abandoned the family...he is all they have left and he is a mess. The girls are, most likely, scared....they can't handle their father being in this state. When I speak to him, the only thing that is important is that he "get his wife back." He cannot see what he is doing to his kids and himself.
I asked him if he was seeing a counselor (his wife left 7 months ago). He said, at first, but no longer. Now that he "gets" it....understands that this is MLC (and ALL about her) - there was nothing more that a counselor could do for him. Really? On Friday, I saw an unshaven mess of a man (walking through the parking lot) - with his head hung low. He told me that he is nothing if he is not a husband and father. Those were the only things that he ever wanted to be. I asked him - "Your kids grew up and have their own lives - your wife dies - what is left for you? What will you do for the rest of your life?" He just shrugged - as if he didn't know and didn't care about himself. I told him - "Well, there is a good place to start. Another person cannot be and can never be your entire life. That is too much pressure for that person and actually truly unfair. There is more to you than a father and a husband. Life threw you a curve ball. It is time for you to find YOU."
I would say the same thing to you, Thundarr. Your wife is gone - off to lala land. You still have your kids (and you will always have them), but as time goes on they will need you less and less. What is left? What is there for you? Those are some of the things you need to figure out. Things we all need to figure out - as we are more than parents and spouses.
There is little point in working on yourself? I really hope that you don't mean that. I would hope that there is much to be found in working on yourself. If not what it brings for you - then for what it will bring to your kids and your loved ones. I think you really need to re-think that viewpoint. Just my humble opinion.
The reason I say this is because in my case, as with most all of us here, the end result of all this will most likely be that either our spouses do not return or do so much damage we would not want them to anyway.
You (like I) are focused on the "end result." I've really made it a point to let the end result go. There is no point in worrying about it, wondering about it, focusing on it. For one thing, it is far into the future and something that we cannot control. Additionally, over time - we will feel differently about things. The hurt that you feel now - will not be so fresh - in the future. The damage that has been done - will not be so recent....believe it or not - unless you read back in your threads, you will even forget some of it. Shocking, but true. There is much that my H did and said that I have just forgotten. When I look back at my threads, I am reminded of them. It is really true - time heals all. Don't worry or focus on the end result. Focus on the work in progress - YOU.
Happy endings (especially for male LBSers) seem to be as rare as people struck by lightning. Just as Rover says, the female MLCer becomes the enemy and the purge of love is generally thorough and complete. I believe this is especially true now with females who move out. The "clean break@ philosophy is akin to a Black Widow in that the H is devoured and $hit out to make room for a more desirable mate. Perhaps it's evolutionary as opposed to good versus evil but who knows.
We are told that we need to be able to accept any "ending." That there is not only one resolution to this whole mess. You seem to be a comparative shopper. Looking at other stories and gauging the success (or failure) of your situation - based upon the results of others. (I did this...I do this). You cannot judge your situation, based upon others. It will only lead to disappointment - as each timeline and story is different - even though there are similarities.
I am not a be proponent of the Divorce Busting midlife crisis forum - but I do read it occasionally. It has been around a lot longer than this forum and there is a thread on reconciled marriages. (There are many on that site....as well as many that didn't make it). One of the male posters on the site (who is back with his wife) has a very good comment on one of those threads. He said that if only 1% of the marriages reconciled - he was determined to be part of the 1%. While I don't subscribe to reconciliation being the only end result - I do like that comment. As far as he was concerned - forget the odds......he was determined. So he detached...let go......worked on himself and, as an added bonus - he and his wife were able to come together again.
It can happen and does ... but, again, it can't be the only end result.......Maybe by letting go and accepting that the old marriage is over - maybe by truly doing this - we can allow a new relationship to rise from its ashes.........
L
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HB- Thanks for your posting. Question for you, you spoke about going through your transition, and in my mind, a transition is just a milder form of the 'crisis. Am I right?
You spoke about you needing to change, and you were not sure if your H will ACCEPT who you would become. I must admit that I've not gone through a transition or a crisis, so I am not sure I completely understand.
So, a person in transition and crisis is AWARE of what they are doing. They know they need to change, and they DECIDE to change. They should be AWARE of the pain and destruction being caused, and they do it anyway - because they feel it's the right thing to do to make themselves FEEL better. They are RESPONSIBLE for their actions because they have a CHOICE.
I would say that the person who is in transition has a better idea of what is going on and, thus, deals with the issue - not allowing it to become a crisis.
A person in crisis is not dealing...avoiding (thus making it a crisis) and, thus, either unaware of what they are doing or choosing to ignore it - pretend that it doesn't exist.
I think that is one of the main differences between a transition and a crisis......
L
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HB- Thanks for your posting. Question for you, you spoke about going through your transition, and in my mind, a transition is just a milder form of the 'crisis. Am I right?
You spoke about you needing to change, and you were not sure if your H will ACCEPT who you would become. I must admit that I've not gone through a transition or a crisis, so I am not sure I completely understand.
So, a person in transition and crisis is AWARE of what they are doing. They know they need to change, and they DECIDE to change. They should be AWARE of the pain and destruction being caused, and they do it anyway - because they feel it's the right thing to do to make themselves FEEL better. They are RESPONSIBLE for their actions because they have a CHOICE.
I would say that the person who is in transition has a better idea of what is going on and, thus, deals with the issue - not allowing it to become a crisis.
A person in crisis is not dealing...avoiding (thus making it a crisis) and, thus, either unaware of what they are doing or choosing to ignore it - pretend that it doesn't exist.
I think that is one of the main differences between a transition and a crisis......
L
I will add that sure signs of crisis would be adultery, moving out and leaving your children, A true EA, crossing the line of things that would be very hard to forgive.
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The reason I say this is because in my case, as with most all of us here, the end result of all this will most likely be that either our spouses do not return or do so much damage we would not want them to anyway. Happy endings (especially for male LBSers) seem to be as rare as people struck by lightning.
Speak for yourself Thundarr. You have no way of predicting the outcomes of ANY of the situations here. Don't assume.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v208/SparklerGirl/421980_316196795093608_177807742265848_880695_1100366353_n.jpg)
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Thank you for your posts, HB. But, other than the aspect of not focusing on your spouse I see little point in putting any extra effort into working on yourself if you were okay with you to begin with. The reason I say this is because in my case, as with most all of us here, the end result of all this will most likely be that either our spouses do not return or do so much damage we would not want them to anyway. Happy endings (especially for male LBSers) seem to be as rare as people struck by lightning. Just as Rover says, the female MLCer becomes the enemy and the purge of love is generally thorough and complete. I believe this is especially true now with females who move out. The "clean break@ philosophy is akin to a Black Widow in that the H is devoured and $hit out to make room for a more desirable mate. Perhaps it's evolutionary as opposed to good versus evil but who knows.
All of the moderators have said what you need to read, and I have nothing to add to their replies, they are right.
I wish you nothing but a good life going forward, Thundarr; I suppose God would have to create a "burning bush" situation for you in order to clearly show you what you need to know...but you won't listen to Him, either; so I'll just step aside here....
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I would say that the person who is in transition has a better idea of what is going on and, thus, deals with the issue - not allowing it to become a crisis.
A person in crisis is not dealing...avoiding (thus making it a crisis) and, thus, either unaware of what they are doing or choosing to ignore it - pretend that it doesn't exist.
I think that is one of the main differences between a transition and a crisis......
Hobo,
Limitless is correct in what she says....each person, however, has clear CHOICES, and both people, whether in crisis or Transition is very much AWARE of what they are doing.
It's the mistakes that are made that change a transition into a crisis....but both types of people ARE AWARE of what's going on; in spite of the pain, etc. they are facing.
I was aware of everything I was doing/saying; but I chose NOT to take a detour, nor did I choose to avoid....the only way out was THROUGH, and I went straight through it; yet, it also took ME time to finish.
I, too, like I said before, had unresolved childhood issues that were still needing to be looked at within myself...I got some of them during my husband's crisis; but I still had more to face, resolve and heal.
My husband was aware of what he was doing; but there were avoidance paths that he took that made his Transition a crisis, plus this extended his time within his journey.
I could write out once again the psychological implications, but these are long and involved, and I copied a great many of them from Thundarr's earlier threads and pasted them within that first LifeTwo thread.
I learned a lot during that time; and I applied this learning to the counseling I did, and still do.
I've found that each one of us really do repeat various emotional patterns from our childhood when we marry our spouses, and each one of us has a great deal of growing up to do within ourselves; and this becomes clear to us, if we become open to it when our spouse goes into their crisis, and we find that many things are wrong within ourselves.
Again, the growing change and becoming we do is for ourselves as individuals, just as the journey the MLC'er is on is for them also as individuals.
The outcome, even for my own situation, was always uncertain as my husband could have always decided to walk away forever; and I had to accept every possibility that could happen, as my husband was free to make these kinds of choices on his own.
He chose me, and during my Transition, I chose him; but more work remained to be done within us both, and this took time to complete in this aspect.
I saw a much different, and much better man come out of the fires of his crisis, and I was also changed, as well...no longer do we deal with childhood issues within ourselves, our ways of relating with each other and other people changed as well. We both grew up EMOTIONALLY....it was a long process, but well worth the walk we both took for the years we spent within this time of our lives dealing with Mid Life Issues.
I could have chosen NOT to change, but as long as I even fought that, the situation remained the same; my husband remained in crisis, with NO incentive to change. It took me changing to prompt the changes in him. Once I began work on me in earnest, having started to face, resolve and heal the issues within myself, I clearly saw what was going on within him that had once "fed" my own issues, pushed my buttons, etc...but in time, he saw the "old" way of relating to me didn't work; therefore he had two choices, change, or walk away.
He fought me at first; because it's easier to stay with the "old" than to go with "new" behaviors; and I got pressured, but stood my ground.
My eyes had been opened to new and more healthy ways of relating, and I wouldn't settle for less than what I had come to realize was a more mature way of dealing...not just with him, but with other people as well.
He chose to change; and within that change, he stopped the behaviors that had once pushed my emotional buttons, and started growing up as he was meant to.
It all took time, and it was a process that we both went through.......Change in one really does bring about change in the other.
The MLC is a wake up call to further growth and change...and it continues until change is wrought in both people...and it completes itself in that aspect.
If one is totally honest with themselves; they'll take the time to figure out everything within that needs an "overhaul"; and get to it.
I would never say anyone here was "bad", or "defective"; but everyone has issues within themselves, I haven't seen a case of MLC yet where growth and change wasn't needed within both people in order to better relate with their spouses, and other people.
I hope this further helps.
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HB - So basically transition and crisis is pretty much the same, and it's the actions that make it into a crisis?
So when you were going through your transition, did you stop loving your H, like you said he had 'lost' his love for you?
My STBX just doesn't feel the love for me anymore... she just said she can't force her feelings... either you love or you don't, and she doesn't and feels the need to D.
Thanks for your continued responses.
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I have to say that one thing that has really been bothering is going through this process without resolving my issues, after reading on here from others that we need to fix or heal within ourselves. How do we know we have healed enough to move on? I feel that we are constantly working on ourselves and I do not think that it stops. ...I have worked on things that I needed to do for my wife or me. I do not feel a whole lot different than I did, I felt I was always a good man with a few flaws.
Thank you for your posts, HB. But, other than the aspect of not focusing on your spouse I see little point in putting any extra effort into working on yourself if you were okay with you to begin with.
Do you really feel this way? Believe this way? Actually, I think that you do. That is really sad and too bad. Read through your posts, my friend. It seems to me that you are ruled by your emotions....allowing the crisis of another person (your wife) to bring you down, up and sideways. (I see this, as this is how I was......and could still be if I allowed it). I write this with no disrespect towards you.....as I truly would like you to be able to see yourself as others do.
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Thundaar, I recommend you save that post of Limitless’ and re-read it on a regular basis. To be honest, I felt the same way as she did to your comment. I think you really do believe that way and that it’s sad.
I knew I had Mirror-Work to do, but HopingFourBetter, I didn’t know what it was either. Often it’s not something specific or even tangible and maybe we won’t even notice as we change. I am still who I was before the crisis. And maybe what someone needs to work on is more obvious to others than it is to Self.
There were basic things like making dinner and sitting together at the table to eat. I changed that within a week of Bomb Drop. I’d started getting in shape and had already lost 20lbs by Bomb Drop and after I started the Stander’s Diet and I lost 35lbs in 6 weeks without even trying—I don’t recommend it. I knew Sweetheart had felt neglected and I knew I needed to come out of my writer’s solitude a bit more and participate in life with him. But even that was not internal Mirror-Work, it was external relationship work.
Maybe it was just answering and embracing a new calling in my life—and doing that sparked new growth organically. I am changed and yet still the person I was before Bomb Drop. I still have to consciously make myself leave the office and my writer’s solitude to be with Sweetheart. He still plans the activities and prepares and I pretty much go, but I don’t do much preparation work. He preps the skis or bikes and gets the gear; I might prep the camel-backs or make a lunch.
The Mirror-Work is not about your relationship and how you interact with others, but it will change how you interact as you change inside; changes in relationships are a byproduct of internal changes.
Mirror Work is not about fixing. Many of you are focused on flaws and fixing and since you think you have few flaws, you are puzzled. You like yourself. So what? Does that mean you should stop learning and growing? Your body is changing; maybe there are new things you should learn simply about aging, being a parent of teenagers or college students or a parent of new parents. Life moves forward. Should your physician stop reading The New England Journal of Medicine because his flaws are slight?
Self-Focus is not about correcting and fixing all the things wrong with you. It’s about focusing on your Self with Love, loving who you are and embracing life with joy—your individual life.
I found a great way to spark a personal journey or mirror-work is through what I wrote about in the blog series Redirecting and Reprogramming Thoughts and Beliefs. In that I reviewed…
- Affirmations
- Meditation
- Hypnosis
- Creative Visualization
The purpose within that series was to do as the title stated and redirect your thoughts from those awful fears and images you can’t get out of your mind. But they are more than that. I’m an introvert, so these work for me because they are solitary. It’s about quiet time with my thoughts, talking to God, emptying my thoughts and accepting what comes in and it is a time for my body to relax. Creativity is another great spark: painting, dancing, sculpting, building… Become the builder and put your mind into creation. Writing, journaling, poetry, story-telling… Or exercise: go find the runner’s high, take yoga…
Notice how those are not direct. They aren’t about you having a problem with anger and going to an anger management class where you learn about controlling your anger and what triggers you and maybe some psychology of anger—and I’ve heard those classes are a joke anyway. Those techniques are not focusing on problems; they aren’t even focusing on solutions; they focus simply on you.
And you don’t need to think of this Mirror-Work as a journey like a temporary transition. It’s life. It’s the 4th commandment: Remember the Sabbath day, and keep it holy. It’s about carving out a space within your day or week (and life) for rest—Sabbatical. It’s about using that time to focus on you and your relationship with your Higher Power and what it means—whatever it may refer to. Mirror-Work is about Self-Love, not Self-improvement which is a natural byproduct of loving your Self.
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HB,
You talk of lot of growth occuring in you and your H. I read lot of your posts and appreciate you going into details of your journey.
Would you be so kind to make a list of 'Before and 'After' as it relates to your Growth through your MLC.
Appreciate your help,
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HB - So basically transition and crisis is pretty much the same, and it's the actions that make it into a crisis?
Yes, it's the actions/response to what's happening within that transform a transition into a crisis.
So when you were going through your transition, did you stop loving your H, like you said he had 'lost' his love for you?
In the beginning of my transition, I felt confused, unsettled, and when denial didn't work, and the feelings deepened, I got very angry...I did NOT want to be where I was; but when I asked the Lord to deliver me, He responded that all people go through this, and the only way out was THROUGH.
Seems like I got even angrier; and the pressure inside myself increased; then along came the emotional pain, and the voices that were many...these were the children of my issues who were demanding to be seen, faced, resolved, and healed.
The temptation to run came at that time, but I didn't take it; yet, at first, I didn't to do what I was called upon to do, either, and this was start facing myself. I tried to shut it all out, but it didn't work; it was like the constant marching of soldiers who didn't stop; and you either marched with them or they walked on you.
So, I went with the "flow" for lack of a better way to describe it, and the facing of my issues began; one at a time. All were painful, and I was consumed with the facing I was doing...no room for anything else within.
I set everything aside that had been my life, and went deeper into the facing. There were times I did NOT know my husband at all; I was so far within the past, and struggling to work my way forward in that aspect.
At the same time, I was functioning on my job, as best I could; life in the present continued in spite of where I was within the past. I couldn't reconcile these; so, when it was necessary; my Transition did go "on hold" for short periods of time..then resumed when I didn't have to interact with anyone.
I got my space to process the same way he did; I was a truckdriver myself, having started this occupation not long after I went into Transition..and I had a LOT of trouble during that time coping with everything.
I DID go through this SAME aspect my husband went through; I "lost" my love for him for awhile, and I felt numb, detached, and when I looked at him, I felt NOTHING for him. I couldn't even tell him I loved him; and I remember him being very hurt about that.
I did explain to him within various times of clarity, that I was having trouble "feeling", and he was arguing against it; of course, we went around in circles and eventually I got angry and backed him off of me.
I was very frightened during that time; I felt NOTHING for anyone; not even myself, and this continued for some time. The pain I was feeling within overshadowed everything I had once felt, and the depression I suffered was so deep that I did often pray for death.
I stayed sick a lot, had various aches and pains, felt "old" even as I worked my way through Menopause, which came before the Transition really got under way.
I was constantly tormented by the past that kept coming up and hitting me in the face; I didn't exactly "relive" my whole life, just the highlights where I had issues to resolve within myself.
I wanted to run, hide, and never return; but I also had responsibility to face; and I didn't want it.
I even considered running away/walking away from my life and starting over somewhere else.
My Intuition stayed active throughout; and I stayed open to this voice who helped me to help myself, even during the times I couldn't sleep because of the constant voices in my head that screamed all of the time. Our son was a teenager at the time of my husband's crisis, and my Transition, and he took the time to sit down and talk to me when I needed someone to just listen to me get all of my anger, frustration, sadness and depression out on the table.
Son was constantly getting out pictures of happier times, and he encouraged me to just stay with what I had; because it is all too easy to jump out of the frying pan and into the fire. He kept reminding me that his dad did love me; even though I didn't love him.
He often reminded me that I had come so far; and when I spewed in anger because I was working through a second time what my husband had done during his crisis, son also reminded me that people really aren't perfect, that mistakes do get made, and forgiveness, not just for my husband, but for my parents, and other people that had abused me when I was a child, was important to reach within ourselves.
Somehow, son did get through to me; and there are various turning points that I can't really remember; but my husband did some things that helped me understand that he did, indeed, still love me, and still wanted me.
It took time, but I regained my love for my husband again; and found it was different than before; also taking the time to realize that what I had would never come my way again if I walked away.
I also found a renewed hope within myself, and my state of mind changed, becoming more optimistic than before....this was a process that took TIME to come through, and complete.
One other thing; I went to my husband when I was ready, and talked to him about some of it; explained what I could get him to understand, and asked him to forgive me for the way I'd treated him.
Even though I didn't do anything wrong, nor did anything to dishonor him or me, I'd treated him horribly, and I remembered that when I didn't remember much else.
He said there was nothing to forgive, but I disagreed with him on that. He said he knew I was going through The Change; and he also said that he knew women got very combative during those times, that he understood; and that he was glad I was finished.
I thanked him for standing by me, when he didn't have to....he said something I've not forgotten; he said that this was what being married was all about; for better OR for worse.
The only thing he asked me was if I'd have to go through this again; since I faced all and everything, the answer there was no.
As far as I know, I've already gone through the worst of it for myself...there's another phase I'm thinking I'll face-- from age 48 to 53; but I don't think it's going to be as bad as what I went through before.
Anyhow, for what it's worth, he and I have seen each other through some pretty bad aspects within the times we faced each other from one side to the other.
The Transition was quite different than the journey I took to resolve various issues within myself to begin the growing process within myself.
Both journeys opened my eyes to what I really was, to the man I had married, and I saw clearly where I needed some pretty deep work within myself.
My STBX just doesn't feel the love for me anymore... she just said she can't force her feelings... either you love or you don't, and she doesn't and feels the need to D.
Your wife hasn't figured out yet that love is a choice, and her love for you is buried deeply within herself. She is basing this assumption on feelings only; and love isn't always about feelings...but the MLC'er has to learn this for themselves, it's not something you can "teach" them.
On the other hand, most MLC'ers get a divorce because they need an "ending" in order to hopefully start a new beginning for themselves, whether with the LBS, or with someone else.
She will find when she gets what she thinks she wants that it won't solve the problem inside herself; it will be the same; she will still be in crisis, and she won't see any changes, except that down the road, she'll see that she has "set you free"; and some MLC'ers panic when they realize they've made a huge mistake by getting a divorce.
Time will tell on this.
I just hope that she doesn't figure it all out too late when she finally sees that she's lost the best thing she ever had in her life; unfortunately it sometimes works out this way....mistakes made that can't be undone, and the damage gets to the point the LBS just can't do it anymore.
Yet time is also what you have to work with and divorce doesn't always mean the total end of everything either.
I wish you well; and I hope that she gets herself worked out given some time.
Take care. :)
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HB,
You talk of lot of growth occuring in you and your H. I read lot of your posts and appreciate you going into details of your journey.
Would you be so kind to make a list of 'Before and 'After' as it relates to your Growth through your MLC.
Appreciate your help,
I've got some errands I need to run at the moment, but I will be back to answer this question. :)
I saw you posted at the same time I did...didn't want you to think I missed it. :)
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The Mirror-Work is not about your relationship and how you interact with others, but it will change how you interact as you change inside; changes in relationships are a byproduct of internal changes.
Mirror Work is not about fixing. Many of you are focused on flaws and fixing and since you think you have few flaws, you are puzzled. You like yourself. So what? Does that mean you should stop learning and growing? Your body is changing; maybe there are new things you should learn simply about aging, being a parent of teenagers or college students or a parent of new parents. Life moves forward. Should your physician stop reading The New England Journal of Medicine because his flaws are slight?
Self-Focus is not about correcting and fixing all the things wrong with you. It’s about focusing on your Self with Love, loving who you are and embracing life with joy—your individual life.
I think it is good to see the above information. Obviously I don't know specific numbers, but there are LBS who directly correlate discussions of needing to work on the Self with causation of their spouse's MLC.
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HB - So basically transition and crisis is pretty much the same, and it's the actions that make it into a crisis?
Hobo - the thinking is that midlife is another of our development phases, such as adolescence is. We all have to go through adolescence, just as we all have to go through a mid life transition.
It becomes a crisis when you choose to run and deny, instead of facing your shadow, and becoming the whole grown up that you were meant to be.
The crisis is designed to FORCE you EVENTUALLY to face your shadow, and become whole.
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It becomes a crisis when you choose to run and deny, instead of facing your shadow, and becoming the whole grown up that you were meant to be.
But when the transition changes to a crisis, it's not really a choice to run and deny, is it? It's triggered or exacerbated, right?
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It becomes a crisis when you choose to run and deny, instead of facing your shadow, and becoming the whole grown up that you were meant to be.
But when the transition changes to a crisis, it's not really a choice to run and deny, is it? It's triggered or exacerbated, right?
My understanding of this is that it is the CHOICE of the MLCer to run and deny, which turns it from a transition, into a crisis.
They could have chosen to stay and face their shadow, and work through the anger, and the feelings of wanting to run, wanting a new life - but they didn't. They CHOSE exit A instead ............ so it became a crisis
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My understanding of this is that it is the CHOICE of the MLCer to run and deny, which turns it from a transition, into a crisis.
They could have chosen to stay and face their shadow, and work through the anger, and the feelings of wanting to run, wanting a new life - but they didn't. They CHOSE exit A instead ............ so it became a crisis
Ah. I guess I'm still very much a newb. ;D
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Oct 11 BD - 11 posts - yup, we've all been there. :) :) :)
Best advice ever is to read, read and read again all of the fantastic articles on here.
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HB,
You talk of lot of growth occuring in you and your H. I read lot of your posts and appreciate you going into details of your journey.
Would you be so kind to make a list of 'Before and 'After' as it relates to your Growth through your MLC.
Appreciate your help,
Not sure if this is what you're looking for but here goes:
I was a people pleaser, when people said things to me I knew was wrong, I didn't stand up for myself, I was totally weak in that area. I was always afraid that if I said anything they wouldn't like me anymore.
I was a total perfectionist who was never satisfied with what I did
I was someone who could be controlled/manipulated
I literally had "lost" my identity; I was a wife, a mother, and I really didn't know who I was
I once thought I had to be everything for everybody
I was copdependent; and an enabler, having taken on responsibility in areas where it didn't NEED to be taken, and it wasn't mine
I often said "yes", when I really meant "no"; and resentment was huge within me (Passive aggressive behaviors)
I often suffered from poor boundaries; didn't take care of myself properly
I often got the short end of the stick, and didn't realize what was going on; in other words, I allowed people to disrespect me.
When I argued, I often cried, begged, pleaded, and threw a fit, LOL...yes, I used to do these things.
As a matter of fact, I didn't learn to be more independent in different aspects until my husband's crisis, and my subsequent Transition(that WAS triggered by his crisis), came along.
These were due to unresolved issues within me; whereas my parents were controllers and manipulators, making me responsible for THEIR feelings, and they very often discouraged independence and tried to foster dependence within me. If I didn't "fall in line" I was "punished" by the withdrawing of their love for me, not to mention I was beaten physically, and if that weren't enough, I was often abused mentally, as well...being told I would never make something of myself, not worth a dime, etc.
The detail above laid the groundwork for the person I married...my husband was NOT physically abusive at all; and he never will be...I won't tolerate that. Yet, he acted the SAME way my parents had...I wasn't supposed to think for myself, and if I didn't think the same way he did, nor do as he wanted me to, I was "punished" by the same way my dad and my mother had done, by the withdrawal of his love from me.
In short, I was conditioned by my childhood to endure these types of behaviors from him...I was grown physically, but emotionally, I had a LONG way to go.
Of course my husband suffered his own issues; some of these were the same as mine; but he also suffered abandonment issues, having been damaged by his parent's divorce, and so often, he held on to me too tightly; and he controlled and manipulated me; and I didn't know it for a long time. He, too, had made me responsible for how he felt, and I took on a great deal of responsibility that was NOT mine to bear, but I did, because I didn't know any other way to be.
OK...fast forward to afterward.
I don't have the need to "please others" any more, they can either accept me as I am, or walk away, and I don't worry about what people think of me.
I accept my own limitations in the area of perfectionism, and understand that I'm human, and very capable of making mistakes; and I can laugh at myself when I mess up(I couldn't before)
I know who I am and what I will and won't tolerate out of others within the area of their behavior toward me; I set healthy boundaries against the bad, and I let in the good.
I will NOT be controlled nor manipulated by others; I call them out when I see these kinds of actions.
I will say what I mean, and mean what I say....if I say yes, I mean it; if I say no, I mean just that.
I learned to have confidence, and well developed self esteem within the person I am, and have become, and I do love myself.
I don't get upset when someone shows anger at me, I can also allow people to be who they are; without expectations.
When engaged in discussion, or even arguing, I make my points, but again, I don't get upset, nor do I cry, beg, plead or throw a fit..those days are long past for me.
In short, I matured emotionally; and I learned to set healthy boundaries with my husband; causing him to also grow up right along with me.
So much has changed, and keeps changing as I grow older. :)
I hope this helps. :)
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I have been here on this forum since about October of 2010. I have made a lot of progress since I have been here and at times I wonder if the progress I have made just gets left by the wayside. As the message Icon is ( SELF- FOCUS AND PAVING THE WAY: GOAL SETTING STRATEGIES, YOUR PROGRESS). 1- GOAL SETTING STRATEGIES; I have really not even thought about goals because for me one day at a time is all I have thought of and I hope for the best. 2- YOUR PROGRESS) I say I have made a lot of progress since I have been here in my 2nd sentence but I say my progress has been a reaction to all that has been going on in the last 18 months. What is progress if I do not have any goals. How can we gage progress without a plan?
One of the things I have been hearing a lot of is the- fixing, the- look in the mirror the- inner healing, I do not want to go through this again. I am here now and as OP says we have been given the gift of time lets use it wisely and make a plan. Coming here and reading other peoples bummers and how they handle their journey is helpful for sure. As I said I have been here for 18 months and aside from getting past the initial BD or shock and me making a few adjustments I have a lot of room for improvement.
The other day my W and I were talking and I had been feeling pretty good about us, well I try to tell her how good I feel we were doing and I was trying to get all warm a fuzzy feeling and she replies that I have more work to do. My wife is a smart woman and I feel she has been working on herself she spends a lot of time on her computer as I do and I do not let her know what I am doing, so heck she could be doing the same thing that I am, I HOPE ANYWAY.
Over a year ago she commented on some of her childhood issues and I think she was trying to put them to rest these were things she never told me before and she only mentioned them to me that one time, her issues were things I really rather not say what they are she had a very tough childhood is what I will say.
My W had a long list of things about me that she did not like and they dated back to when we first married I felt that I did not do anything right our whole marriage but what she was saying is it is something that I do over and over again. A similar trait used a little different maybe each time but the same habit 5 or 6 things used a little differently can equal 30 things that she did not like. But repeating these things over and over will wear on a person. She told me at the time those things were not worth fighting over for her. At BD she told me that she is not the same person and never will be that person again and she will now fight for what she feels is right. I am a little slow but I will get it right one day soon.
After writing this I almost feel that my wife has been standing for me waiting for me to catch up with her, like I said she is a smart one and she says she does a lot of research on the internet. Hfb
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HFB, you are so earnest and open in your posts. I wish I had an easy answer to give you. Here are some things that have helped me. Maybe they will help you.
When I first came on this board I spent a long time reading before I started posting. I read all the articles, the links, the stickies, etc. I also read a lot of individual threads. I found some that I related to, and some that I didn't. I kept reading and following the individuals that I related to, and that I found inspiring. Eventually I started posting and sharing my own experiences as well.
When people say "work on yourself" and "get a life" it can start to sound a bit simplistic or cliched. But the idea is to get out of the mentality of focusing on the MLCer and "getting them to come back" to the relationship. People often make the mistake of either trying to change the MLCer or changing themselves to get the MLCer back. Both are an exercise in futility. We can only ever truly control ourselves.
Here are some things to think about. Are there any books you've wanted to read but never did? Any movies you've always wanted to see? Any hobbies or sports that you would like to do? Now would be a perfect time. It is a good distraction from focusing on the MLCer (GAL) but also will make you a more well rounded person.
We all know that the MLCer is processing and facing personal issues throughout the crisis. I have found that as I go through this process over time as well, I too am coming face to face with my own repressed or unresolved issues. Some I was not even consciously aware of until they were triggered by the MLC. I am working on ways to accept and integrate these into myself. I am working on ways to be a better person, to be happier, to be kinder, to be at peace.
Many people have found inspiration in their spiritual path. Recently I have found a a great deal of wisdom in Buddhist practice. I posted a few articles on my last thread that helped me a lot. I am realizing that life is so short. It truly is a waste to spend any more time than necessary being unhappy. Happiness comes from within. I can't control what happens to me. I can control my attitude. THAT has been one of my biggest lessons so far.
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HB- thanks so much for your detailed response. I really appreciate it. While going through your transition, you were facing unresolved issues from your childhood, and had to 'relive' everything. How did that happen? Did you 'relive' this in your mind? Was it like daydreaming? Is that why they want to be left alone - to relive things?
My W is caring for our two young kids, do I need to be concerned that she can't care for them? She was a SAHM for over 10 years. Now she has to go and look for a job, and a place to live all with no money. How can she do that, and also go through this pain, and 'reliving' and resolving these issues.?
It does make sense because she does have a lot of childhood issues, and abandonment issues with her mother.
She also has to do a lot of the things you've mentioned. She was also a people pleaser - and I was always the one who likes to control things. I've also had a rough childhood, so I am afraid that at some point in the future, I will be going through this.
I wonder if it helps that we are aware of it. Yes, I've told my wife that I loved her unconditionally, and love is a choice, it is a verb, in addition to a feeling. She just said she can't feel the love. I asked if it was only to me, or to everyone, in the beginning, she said she didnt know.... but over time, she told me that it was just me... and that she's made up her mind. For the past year, she's done nothing but distance from me. She refuses to admit that she is going through this, and is always angry.
She's said and done so many things that I really don't know if I can forgive or forget. Thanks so much for shedding the light that you do.
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Hey WP,
I have read quite a lot on here, perhaps I should fallback and read again. My first time when I read I was in a fog and a hurry to get the answers I felt I needed. I suppose if there was an easy answer we would possibly not be here right. I am writing my thoughts and hoping . Maybe what is said will help someone or someone will see something that will help. I expect no miracle to happen and I know this process takes time.
I do write here on the life two thread because I know it has a better chance of being read. Hfb
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Hey HFB, you might also try posting on other people's threads. They will probably start posting back on yours. Some great friendships can spring up on this board if you reach out. :)
Another thought I had, bouncing off of my previous post here: Try rephrasing "Work on yourself" to "Get to know yourself" or even "Date yourself." You know when you first start dating someone and everything is new and fresh and exciting? That feeling of discovery and anticipation? What if you could have that feeling every day…with yourself?!
Sure it would be great if your spouse and/or other loved ones care to join you, but you can be secure, happy and content with yourself and your life as it is. I believe that is a worthy goal for everyone- to be well rounded and well adjusted enough to reach that point. And yes it is an ongoing process. But half the fun is getting there. It is a never ending journey, unless we choose not to move forward, but stay in place, stagnate and place control of ourselves and our lives on some outside force: our spouse, our job, our home, whatever.
Some things I have done for myself since this MLC process started:
Began studying a new language
Practicing Buddhist mindfulness techniques
Joined a martial arts gym
Reaching out to old friends and family members
Learning more about myself, through journaling, lots of reading, prayer, meditation, and processing with a therapist friend
There are still more things that I want to do. Now when I start obsessing on my MLCer I reach out for one of the books I still have waiting to read, I pop in a film, I go work out. One of the best things for getting me out of my own funk is deliberately doing something to make someone else happy. Donate to a shelter, visit a senior citizen, volunteer time or money or both. It helps pull me out of focusing on myself, obsessing on my own problems, and realize how good I really do have it compared to so many in this world.
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HB- thanks so much for your detailed response. I really appreciate it. While going through your transition, you were facing unresolved issues from your childhood, and had to 'relive' everything. How did that happen? Did you 'relive' this in your mind? Was it like daydreaming? Is that why they want to be left alone - to relive things?
It was like watching "home movies" in my mind if that makes any sense...the events I was seeing were as if they had happened just the day before; and in my mind, I did, 'relive' each event in question.
From the aspect of where I was in my facing, instead of where I had once been, I was more able to figure out how to face, resolve, and heal each one.....they didn't come forward all at one time, they came one at a time.
It wasn't like daydreaming for me; most of my facing came at night when I was trying to go to sleep...during the day, there were so much going on, and so many distractions; not to mention I had to still function at my job, and deal with people, so I would put it "on hold", until I was alone again.
It is true they want to be left alone to deal with themselves, it's easier that way...and I wasn't any different.
As a child, I didn't have the necessary tools to process, therefore, I had various areas of damage that came forth because I wasn't mature enough in my mind to process...and even during puberty, I wasn't mature enough mentally, nor emotionally to handle what had happened to me....but by the time I reached Mid Life, however, I was mentally mature enough to figure out what I needed to do. Once I had figured it out, then, I applied what I'd learned, emotionally; and started making changes based on what I'd learned.
Forgiveness was also a very necessary part of my facing within.
My W is caring for our two young kids, do I need to be concerned that she can't care for them? She was a SAHM for over 10 years. Now she has to go and look for a job, and a place to live all with no money. How can she do that, and also go through this pain, and 'reliving' and resolving these issues.?
I imagine she figures this out as she goes forward, just like I had to. Life continues to happen, in spite of a MLC/MLT; and one must still try to continue to have some kind of balance in their lives.
It's not easy to try and balance what you're doing, with what is happening within..but some do manage to get it done...although it may take a little longer because life doesn't stop because one is in Transition or Crisis.
I worked full time driving an 18 wheeler; I still do that today. The only problem I remember really having was trying to follow directions, and I got lost more times, and took more wrong turns than I wanted to during that time.
I dealt in the best way that I could and I'm sure your wife is doing the same...it's hard, I know it is.
It does make sense because she does have a lot of childhood issues, and abandonment issues with her mother.
She also has to do a lot of the things you've mentioned. She was also a people pleaser - and I was always the one who likes to control things. I've also had a rough childhood, so I am afraid that at some point in the future, I will be going through this.
I wonder if it helps that we are aware of it.
Well, it does help some to be aware of what you may be facing going forward. I was aware going in, and I was aware during my times of various decisions I was faced with.
I kept in mind that the only way was THROUGH; and there were NO shortcuts to get to the other side. Even though I forgot some things, and had to relearn them from a different aspect, I stayed aware as much as I possibly could.
The foggy side of things were scary for me; as I struggled against losing what was left of my mind; that was my perception at that point. I wasn't really losing my mind, but at times it sure felt like it. The pain within made me tired, irritable, depressed, and it seemed everything was getting on my nerves.
Yes, I've told my wife that I loved her unconditionally, and love is a choice, it is a verb, in addition to a feeling. She just said she can't feel the love. I asked if it was only to me, or to everyone, in the beginning, she said she didnt know.... but over time, she told me that it was just me... and that she's made up her mind. For the past year, she's done nothing but distance from me. She refuses to admit that she is going through this, and is always angry.
I, too, remember the anger which burned very hot within me....everything my husband did got on my nerves, even calling just to check on me would get me going.
It wasn't any different when I dealt with him, and the shoe had been on the other foot....I gained a great deal of Insight out the experience...and realized that some of the anger he'd shown was because he felt like he was "rubbed raw" emotionally; and it was tedious for him.
Well, I had that same experience; and I remember feeling SO bad each time I bit his head off, but I couldn't do anything about it; it wasn't him it was ME.
Her crisis is really working on her at this point; and it's not unusual to distance farther away for a time, then come back in closer; cycling is a part of the process. Most MLC'ers who refuse to admit they are going through a crisis or just something hard, think if they admit they're facing something that is beyond their own control, then they must be defective or going crazy.
They think it's better to just deny it, than to admit it...it's part of the running they can do, but the Crisis continues right on within them.
If she doesn't see it now, she'll most likely see it later on...they KNOW, in spite all of their denials, they do know something's not right within them.
She's said and done so many things that I really don't know if I can forgive or forget.
I can understand that very well, as I struggled hard with forgiving my husband for all he'd done; and I struggled even harder with the idea that if I forgave him, he just might do what he did all over again.
Forgiveness is for you, not the person who wrongs you....and you must figure this out within and for yourself. It's a process that one does not have to go through, but if you don't, your anger at her actions could become bitterness at a later time.
Thanks so much for shedding the light that you do.
You're welcome; I give a lot of thought to every response I make to someone's question; and though I often run long, I would rather make sure they understand the first time, if possible..if not, I do encourage the asking of questions until comprehension is gained. :)
I do what I can to help; I've been there myself on side or the other; and I don't mind sharing what I have learned and what I know with others. The advice can used, thrown away, take it or leave it; it's out there to be read; understood, and hopefully used to help people to grow, and become better than before.
Take what you need, and leave the rest is something I've always said, as it won't make me mad if it's not taken...it's not my life, it's yours. :) Someone else might need what's written down; who knows? :)
Take care of yourself, Hobo. :)
Hugs to you,
HB
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Catching up from earlier today as the thread moves very fast (which is good).
"Dating yourself"? Interesting concept, but a paradox in many ways.
Hobo/ TB - It's great that after so long in this you are finally getting the answers you have been searching for. As Doc says, that spaceship has to crash sooner rather than later and you will decide where you will be when it does. I think we both know, but this changes us all. Thanks for being there, my friend.
Limitless - What you wrote was profound and maybe the best post I've ever seen from you, and that is saying alot. I'll admit that I do relate with the LBS guy at your work from time to time, but honestly I feel I've been doing a great job with detaching and focusing on work and the kids and it's paid wonderful dividends. I am much more balanced now and have returned to a place of peace much sooner than in the past. For a full explanation of why everything happened yesterday you can check my thread and it may shed a different light on things, but I won't burden this thread down with that is it is meant to be a free-flowing discussion.
On that note, I address this to RCR. I have nothing but the utmost respect for you and appreciation for what you are hoping to accomplish. In many ways you and I are like-minded souls and hopefully one day I will have the impact that you have on those who are in pain and in need of support and encouragement. What you have accomplished is nothing short of remarkable and yet you appear to have no desire to "get rich" off of your contributions. That is perhaps what impresses me the most, and I do accept the majority of your research on MLC and WAS's.
But, I do feel that in some ways things have begun to get out of control. Perhaps it has to do with the influx of new people over the past year as this board has grown by leaps and bounds since I joined last July. At that time it was very centralized and seemed to have a definite focus that reflected your own philosophy. Now I feel that there are factions branching off and not only skewing some of the information but also tending to form their own philosophy which bleeds onto the board as accepted fact when often it is purely opinion or even misunderstood interpretations. I don't think anyone means to do harm, but it does seem that the message you brought has been somewhat mis-construed by many on here, including veterans and moderators at times. I also think that strong personalities often overshadow the messages of hope and kindness that makes up the mission statement. The end result of this is that thoughts and opinions that are different than the "norm" are often unsafe to bring forward, and I feel that many either silence themselves or don't find the courage to post for fear of being attacked or ganged up on by those who think their opinion is correct.
I don't mean this as a complaint or against any one person or group (although we all know there are cliques here and for the most part that's not harmful) but rather as an observation from the "peanut gallery" so to speak. I am eternally grateful for the work of HB, OP, Limitless, Shantilly, Ready, Stayed and and many others as well as yourself who have made this board what it is today and continue to pay it forward. There would be many more lost souls out there if not for you guys. If you would like further clarification or examples of what I'm talking about I would be happy to PM you as I want to see this board live on for years to come.
Peace to you all.
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I also think it would be an excellent idea for you to go back and read the articles again. The articles are beneficial thoughout the MLC process and can add credibility as you witness your MLCer do the behaviors they inform you about.
Below are some examples from the articles that offer insight on what you've written
My W had a long list of things about me that she did not like and they dated back to when we first married I felt that I did not do anything right our whole marriage but what she was saying is it is something that I do over and over again.
From RCR's article Midlife Crisis Takes Time
Though no one is perfect, in the beginning you will search your own behaviour for what went wrong. Since the MLCer often offers a long list of your transgressions, it is not a difficult search. In the beginning, many LBS's accept this blame, using it as the excuse for the bad marriage. For many experiencing this crisis in their marriage, there was no bad marriage. Though nothing is perfect, many problems were not significant enough to warrant danger. The problem is the Midlife Crisis.
At BD she told me that she is not the same person and never will be that person again and she will now fight for what she feels is right. I am a little slow but I will get it right one day soon.
From RCR's article Stories and Human Behavior
The person who comes through the MLC tunnel may be vastly different than the person who entered the tunnel and different than the possibly multiple personalities in the tunnel. How your MLCer is now is not indicative of who he might become.
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HB - was really interested to read this:
It wasn't like daydreaming for me; most of my facing came at night when I was trying to go to sleep...during the day, there were so much going on, and so many distractions; not to mention I had to still function at my job, and deal with people, so I would put it "on hold", until I was alone again.
It is true they want to be left alone to deal with themselves, it's easier that way...and I wasn't any different.
My H's major obsession, after the OW, is his work. (Actually - work probably comes before the OW these days, but I can't be certain??) He's just been here, and sat and talked to me about yet another great idea that he has (they are all tied into our company, but are new offshoots). I truly wonder how many new ideas he can come up with to stop him facing what he needs to face.
He has mentioned that he hasn't slept well in about three or more years. He still isn't sleeping well.
What I was wondering is this - Do you think all of the MLCers who have busy distracted days, would do their processing at night? Is this how the shadow forces itself to be faced, even when the MLCer is running as fast as their legs will take them?
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HB - was really interested to read this:
It wasn't like daydreaming for me; most of my facing came at night when I was trying to go to sleep...during the day, there were so much going on, and so many distractions; not to mention I had to still function at my job, and deal with people, so I would put it "on hold", until I was alone again.
It is true they want to be left alone to deal with themselves, it's easier that way...and I wasn't any different.
My H's major obsession, after the OW, is his work. (Actually - work probably comes before the OW these days, but I can't be certain??) He's just been here, and sat and talked to me about yet another great idea that he has (they are all tied into our company, but are new offshoots). I truly wonder how many new ideas he can come up with to stop him facing what he needs to face.
He has mentioned that he hasn't slept well in about three or more years. He still isn't sleeping well.
What I was wondering is this - Do you think all of the MLCers who have busy distracted days, would do their processing at night? Is this how the shadow forces itself to be faced, even when the MLCer is running as fast as their legs will take them?
Hey Kikki, I just responded to this on your thread, but it sounds so much like my H. Trip.
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Well its been a weird run this past week! First of all wife's restraining order expired last Monday, and I tried to call her and tell her I was picking up my kids for a few days because I've had such little contact with them in 3 months due to the restraining order! No answer so I picked up my youngest son the next day, no reaction from wife so the next day I picked up my handicapped son. Well still no contact with w then. Next day at 6a.m. She has Mil call and tell me to get handicapped son home by 7a.m. So he can get on bus to school, I reply ill take him to school, mil says what about his wheelchair in which I reply I have one and I will get him to school. 2 minutes after I get off phone with MIL the W calls and screams for me to get him home in which I reply I got it taken care of and hung up the phone. Well later that day I went to pick up sons from school and W had picked them up half hour earlier. I just left it alone for the day.Next afternoon I go and pick up youngest from school and I send W a text telling her I have him,she then texts back that was fine but that I needed to give her a work schedule so we can figure out a visitation schedule, in which I reply OK and then I asked her when I could pick up handicapped son and she told me he was sick and that I could get him next day when I dropped youngest off for a b-day party. I asked if I could pick up both boys after that for a few days and she said yes. Next day I went and dropped off youngest son with his mom and told him to tell his mom to text me when party was over. A couple hours later W texts and tells me I can get youngest but handicapped son was still sick. I text back what was wrong with him and she tells me a cold and a fever. I tell her give him kiss for me and she replies K. So yesterday I was hanging out with my son when she texts asking if I was keeping son Monday night because it was his b-day and if I was she would like to pick him up Tuesday. I told her that if she already made plans then she could have him on Monday and I'd get him Tuesday, she tells me no plans and to go ahead and keep him for b-day and she would get him next day. She also tells me that I need to pick up sons Valentine day stuff so he can take it to school on Tuesday. Funny no contact with her in 3 months and all of a sudden she is starting to initiate all contact with me. So this morning she calls early in the a.m. And asks to speak to son to tell him happy B-day, after son gets off phone with W son tells me that his mom told him to remind me to get Valentine day stuff. Well this morning was our first mediation appointment, well I get there expecting to go up against wife's new pitbull attorney! She just hired her last week, well to my suprise no pitbull. Wife come in and still no eye contact or small talk while waiting for mediator. Well we go in to mediation and to my suprise after mediator ask us what we want I tell her I want a fifty fifty split with the kids and wife responds she wants the same, because she could use the help. During our conversation with mediator she kept trying to take shots at me, but at the same time she wants a fifty fifty split and that we need to communicate more and come up with a game plan for the kids! This is the same woman that wanted to take sole custody of children and wanted absolutely no contact with me. Is this a sign she's cycling, I've also heard her and OM are done, is this also a sign? I hate to read anything into anything but its hard when this is not what I expected this week, I was prepared for war and I got compromise! What is going on? Is she setting me up again or is she really starting to soften? If it is real is their a chance she is starting to see I'm not the cause of her unhappiness?
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Thundarr, I can see why you might have felt ganged up on on this thread. You got a lot of 2x4s. But I didn't see anyone attacking you. I see a lot of frustration with what seems to be a deliberate choice on your part to not detach, to continue to stay hooked in to your wife, to focus on the negative, and to make your happiness (or lack thereof) conditional on her behavior. That of course is your choice. But a lot of very wise very caring people are telling you differently.
RCR, OP, HB, Limitless, Ready have all posted what seem to be variations of the same response to you. Many others have posted similar comments to you over time as well. You choose to stay in the same negative mindset. You speak of wanting to promote an atmosphere of hope, but then you post comments such as this:
The reason I say this is because in my case, as with most all of us here, the end result of all this will most likely be that either our spouses do not return or do so much damage we would not want them to anyway. Happy endings (especially for male LBSers) seem to be as rare as people struck by lightning.
That comment is extremely UNhopeful and unhelpful. If you really want to promote an atmosphere of hope, post something hopeful, not hopeless! You can do it. :)
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Hey WP,
I can understand that you would interpret my post as being about me personally given the timeframe of it and all (and part of it could apply) but for the most part it had to do with observations over the last few months. I don't feel "ganged up on" so to speak as I do know that the 2 x 4's came from ones who genuinely care and who know me pretty well. As you probably know by now, there was more to my story from Sunday as unshared in my own thread but the fact that my W remains my single greatest weakness is obvious. It was my first cycle down in awhile though and I bounced back rather quickly so at least it's an improvement, huh? Lol! It's so hard when all our interactions are pleasant and the ghost of my family is right in front of me but I can't comets embrace it or reel it in. It could be worse I know.
But, anyway, I actually am thick-skinned to everyone except my W and kids sometimes and I really do appreciate the 2 x 4's, and those who clubbed me with them!
And as far as working on myself, I should have pointed out that this was a MAJOR focus in grad school working on my counseling degree. It took me almost 2 years but I finally reached a point of being satisfied with myself and having a great self-knowledge. Of course, that was before this Hell hit me I'll admit.
C and A, I've told you many times you have many reasons to be hopeful. I've always felt your being a good father to your son will always be noticed by her,and it's not you she's running from. Stay string, brother!!
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On that note, I address this to RCR.
But, I do feel that in some ways things have begun to get out of control. Perhaps it has to do with the influx of new people over the past year as this board has grown by leaps and bounds since I joined last July. At that time it was very centralized and seemed to have a definite focus that reflected your own philosophy. Now I feel that there are factions branching off and not only skewing some of the information but also tending to form their own philosophy which bleeds onto the board as accepted fact when often it is purely opinion or even misunderstood interpretations. I don't think anyone means to do harm, but it does seem that the message you brought has been somewhat mis-construed by many on here, including veterans and moderators at times. I also think that strong personalities often overshadow the messages of hope and kindness that makes up the mission statement. The end result of this is that thoughts and opinions that are different than the "norm" are often unsafe to bring forward, and I feel that many either silence themselves or don't find the courage to post for fear of being attacked or ganged up on by those who think their opinion is correct.
So this must be the philosophy that RCR says NOT TO LOOK IN THE MIRROR AND WORK ON YOURSELF that you have been theorizing lately.
Are you serious?
This board is very lightly moderated, and all RCR can DO is guide people in the right direction. Maybe you should do a refresher course from DGU in reading the ARTICLES about what RCR does propose. I am sure no one wants the moderators to be dictating what people can THINK or not, even my suggestion to YOU about working on YOURSELF is not one that any moderator would be able to impose on YOU. This is a self help board and if one does not help themselves no amount of begging, pleading or pushing is going to force them to do so. I do not see what you are saying here to be quite honest. RCR has allowed everyone to write what they want to put down and with the exception of a few moderated words this is a very FREE forum. I for one would like to see it continue that way and commend RCR and all the other moderators for their efforts.
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Thundarr
but it does seem that the message you brought has been somewhat mis-construed by many on here, including veterans and moderators at times.
This concerns me as a moderator. I think it important that you pm RCR and let her know what your observations are because as moderators it is important not to misconstrue any messages to anyone.
Moderators constantly discuss the way the board is being taken, with RCR leading the way. With an influx of newbies there is always challenges about new thoughts and opinions. At times the forum has been through bumpy periods but that is the joy of open discussion and debate and a new forum that is evolving.
What we must protect are the theories being given as right when all the anecdotal evidence says otherwise. This causes confusion and angst and ultimately the possibility of a our bright futures being blighted with or without our spouses. Newbies particularly hang onto to every word and try and find ways to mend and fix their spouses. I remember being there as well. It is for these posters that we particularly need to keep the clarity of what is right whilst our H/W are in replay and that is detach, mirror work (and no one is perfect as we are ourselves evolving as life progresses) and getting on with our lives whilst our MLCers are spun off as aliens into space.
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… in my case, as with most all of us here, the end result of all this will most likely be that either our spouses do not return or do so much damage we would not want them to anyway. Happy endings (especially for male LBSers) seem to be as rare as people struck by lightning.
Some of you will not like what I have to say to about this comment.
I agree it is not a helpful, healthy or hope-promoting statement. But as of right now, it may be true—though I do disagree with the rarity being similar to being struck by lightening since At-Home Low-Energy female MLCers may bring such odds up and Thundaar generalized his statement to include all female MLCers.
I think the odds are better for reconciliation if the MLCer is at-home, low energy (that usually goes with being at-home) or if they are a Clinging Boomerang—supposing the LBS learns what to do as a Stander. I don’t like to say that too emphatically because it’s not something I have any peer-reviewed data to support and more importantly I don’t want to destroy or even damage the Hope of LBS whose MLCers are not one of those types. But the reality is that most LBSs here will probably not reconcile with their spouses.
A lot of you did not like me saying that. It was scary and deflated your hope. I’ve been working on a response to it and will soon post it. It’s at the blog now, but my access to the backend of the blog has been inconsistent and I need to start reactivating plug-ins to get everything where it should be. So I may post it in its own thread first. But that comment of mine went on…focus on what I said next.
But the goal is that through the support and education we offer, we will gradually increase those odds of reconciliation. So right now it may the odds may be stacked against, but as we all learn the best ways to Stand and interact with MLCers and focus on Self, we will have more and more reconciliation success stories. And that may be contagious because when there are few successes there are higher doubts; so when you friend reaches reconciliation, you may have an easier time believing you can or will too.
Now look at Thundaar’s statement again. Look at the piece that follows the word or.
…or do so much damage we would not want them to anyway.
That statement is not about whether your MLCer will want to return; he’s right, many of you will come to a point where you choose to stop Standing. There is nothing wrong with that—though I understand that it frightens you. But that may be a choice made from a place of healing and inner strength by a person who got to that place because of Standing.
I think it is perhaps inappropriate coming from Thundaar—and that’s not fair because he is simply being honest with how he feels and sees it. But Thundaar, it is also something you say from within your fears and you lack the objectivity of standing outside of the LBS point of view. You are expressing a common LBS fear, but you are expressing it as though it is a certainty—fact—rather than fear. People don’t like hearing that because negative facts diminish their hope—and yes, often they are misplacing hope, but that’s the way it is. I agree with the comments that it is a negative statement and with the requests for you to keep it more positive.
What a hypocrite I am! But I’m no longer an LBS and I’m trying to change the possible truth of your statement. I say it to rally people to be a part of the movement of change, you say it because it’s how you feel and feelings can be contagious, so other people may see what you say and let it infect their hope too. When I was an LBS I was very careful about what I said. I was certain my marriage would continue and we would reconcile—absolutely certain. But I knew the odds are not 100% reconciliations, but I did not focus on those odds. Odds are about groups, not individuals. Your situation does not and should not end in divorce because someone else’s ended that way, but when you focus on the odds, that is what you are doing, basing you situation on theirs.
Now I did take Thundaar’s comment out of context and in context it’s more flawed.
[But, other than the aspect of not focusing on your spouse I see little point in putting any extra effort into working on yourself if you were okay with you to begin with. The reason I say this is because in my case, as with most all of us here, the end result of all this will most likely be that either our spouses do not return or do so much damage we would not want them to anyway. Happy endings (especially for male LBSers) seem to be as rare as people struck by lightning.
Mirror-Work is a separate thing from the MLCer. Mirror-Work is about the LBSs Self-Focus—re-read my description in my post above for a clarification on what it is. SO you shouldn’t do Self-Work because your spouse might not return. Are you kidding? That statement is saying that Self-Work is meant to get the spouse back and is for the MLCer, not you.
UM….NOOOOOOOOOOO.
All that Self-Focus stuff is for you. In the beginning many of you will do it you’re your MLCer, we know and accept that as part of your process. Often those early changes will be things you like anyway and you will naturally transition to making changes for you.
Thundaar, you say you are detaching better and such…great, I don’t doubt it. But that statement is the basis of why people are consistently saying you are focusing on your MLCer. You are still not there yet; you aren’t getting it.
And as far as working on myself, I should have pointed out that this was a MAJOR focus in grad school working on my counseling degree. It took me almost 2 years but I finally reached a point of being satisfied with myself and having a great self-knowledge. Of course, that was before this Hell hit me I'll admit.
And that is relevant how…?
You have basically just said that because of your training you get a free pass on the Mirror-Work. Oh and that counselors don’t have to change. Once you like your Self—whether others like you or not—stay the same. Of course if you do that you will become stagnant. Go back to Erikson’s stages.
Stage7, Middle Adulthood: Generativity vs. Stagnation
I agree that you are pretty-thick skinned and can take 2x4s, but your thick-skin is part of the problem. You don’t really let the messages get through, but defend, deny (you misunderstood me is a common denial from you) and make excuses.
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I do feel that in some ways things have begun to get out of control. Perhaps it has to do with the influx of new people over the past year as this board has grown by leaps and bounds since I joined last July. At that time it was very centralized and seemed to have a definite focus that reflected your own philosophy. Now I feel that there are factions branching off and not only skewing some of the information but also tending to form their own philosophy which bleeds onto the board as accepted fact when often it is purely opinion or even misunderstood interpretations. I don't think anyone means to do harm, but it does seem that the message you brought has been somewhat mis-construed by many on here, including veterans and moderators at times. I also think that strong personalities often overshadow the messages of hope and kindness that makes up the mission statement. The end result of this is that thoughts and opinions that are different than the "norm" are often unsafe to bring forward, and I feel that many either silence themselves or don't find the courage to post for fear of being attacked or ganged up on by those who think their opinion is correct.
This is not a new thing happening on the board. It was this way long before you came around. As a new and growing board we go through periods of change and growth as the community evolves. The atmosphere changes as we grow and we notice a few upheavals every few months. They preceded your arrival here.
I started the Moderator Team at one.
At another I started the Mentoring Program.
At another I posted Advice for Advising.
Sometimes you will not notice anything publicly from me. This is a regular topic of discussion on the Moderator Board. I want to keep that feeling of safety which is why I added a reminder of the mission of the Unconditionals in the News Feed on the front page. And I send each newbie a PM—it’s the same basic PM (and I have added a piece for LTers), but it is not something automated within the forum, I send each one personally—I would love it if it could be automated!
Your arrival on the board was a period of change—because of your arrival. Thundaar, you are not a leader, but you are an influencer—and a bit of a heckler. But I don’t think you really get how your influence can affect the board. When it has come to some people feeling there is at times a spread of negativity infecting the atmosphere; you are often in the thick of it and sometimes you are the seed or root. Statements like the one I referenced in that last post about the odds are an example.
It is not an inaccurate statement. But is it healthy? Are you simply trying to be honest and get people to face the truth? Is it simply your opinion?
Do you remember the uproar when President Bush (Sr.) said he didn’t like broccoli? People were concerned about the influence of the statement, not the honesty. Or what about Oprah’s lawsuit with the beef industry in Texas—which is how she met Dr. Phil.
If you would like further clarification or examples of what I'm talking about I would be happy to PM you as I want to see this board live on for years to come.
I would love to have PM’s about this sort of thing from anyone. I may not respond, because I often will put it up for discussion at the Moderator’s Board instead.
But I rarely notice these thing happening on the board because I am not a day-to-day reader of the threads. I rely on you guys to let me know when something is going on that doesn’t feel right—though it is helpful to me when you reference the posts and threads so I know where to look.
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Thank you for taking the time to respond, RCR, and thanks to JA and MLCWife as well. I have read and re-read all of your responses as well as my own and would like to respond in turn.
MLCWife - When I first read your post this morning, I misread one of your middle sentences and understood you to be saying that I wasn't being honest. Upon re-reading I now see what you're saying and I really appreciate your opinion, whether you agree with me or not. My opinion is no better than anyone else's here and should not be taken as such as we are all in the same boat and reliant upon each other for survival in many ways.
JA - I appreciate your concern and acknowledgment of what I said without castigating me for it. You could well have taken offense and responded much differently than you did, and I want you and everyone else to know I have no agenda nor do I have any vendettas toward anyone here. My intent is just what I said it was and that is to help in any way I can to make this a safe haven for all no matter where they are in this process. I will PM RCR with the examples I spoke of, but again it's a minute quantity in comparison to all of the good things that go on here daily. I want to be a part of the solution and not the problem.
RCR - On that last note, it struck me very hard that my influence could affect others in a negative way. Despite my field of expertise, I am in uncharted waters here and fighting against many things that seem to be in contrast to my training and education. The situation I'm in truly doesn't make sense to me when practical and logical lenses are applied to it. I can see no reason that my W and I are separated as there has been nothing really bad happen between us and we make each other laugh even to this day. I, like so many on here, thought that I had as good a marriage as there was and that my W and I would live happily ever after. Life has thrown a curveball unlike any I've ever experienced and in many ways I'm dumbfounded by it even given the information you have collected and shared. I'm known to use the terms "Twilight Zone, Hell, Bizarro World, Psycho World" and many others to describe what just simply doesn't add up. The concepts of "covert depression" espoused on here are seldom referenced, even in a graduate school with the highest level of accreditation. I truly believe that what you have researched here really is the cutting edge of this condition, crisis, malady, phase or whatever it's referred to in different circles. Few realize that the concepts here are really upper-level psychological processes that the medical and social fields really know embarrassingly little about. Even the professionals I've encountered who do know about this attach a much quicker timeline as well as a higher rate of success for the spouse who chooses to stand for their marriage.
My goal has never been anything other than to help those along who are struggling, and I would say that looking back I have a pretty decent track record of doing so. I don't recall ever telling someone on their own thread that they should give up or that their situation is hopeless, even though there are some who I feel have little reason to hope barring a miracle. I try to focus on what they should be happy with and encourage them to follow their heart and be true to themselves. I am known for adding humor in when I feel it is welcome or needed, although my sense of humor sometimes borders on the juvenile end (right, WP?) or may be son inane that few even get the joke. I don't understand the "heckler" comment, so I would appreciate it if you would elaborate. And as for why I seem unable to follow my own advice at times? Well, as I said previously I'm in the same boat as everyone else. My world has been rocked, as has the world my children live in. We are all suffering but overall I feel that I'm doing a pretty good job of holding things together despite dealing with intense pain at times. My S7 hasn't missed a day of school and has been selected for the gifted program, and my D11 is an honor student who is a leader in her class. D19 works several hours a week and attends college full-time and has never been in any trouble at all. Not bad for a single/ solo dad if I do say so myself. I have not only found my footing at work but excelled to a point where I'm being looked at for a promotion just two short months after I was almost cut due to being a liability. I cannot help the pain I am in as I worry about everything falling apart and having no safety net whatsoever, as well as looking at the possibility of living the remainder of my days separate from the woman who I have made my sacred vows to. I believe mine is a Covenant Marriage (thanks LC and CFL!) and do not believe I could move on to another woman without enduring guilt as long as my W is living as the teaching of my church and my own belief is that "What God has joined no man can tear asunder."
On my own thread, or on this one which I hoped to create as an open forum for the influx of LTers as well as the wonderful people who were already here, I have been more frank and honest and willing to express my true feelings of despair even though some are turned off by it. I speak from my heart, as I have learned to do in counseling, and do not sugarcoat. When I am happy and optimistic it is reflected in my posts and I will show up in others to encourage them. When I am in despair and feeling hopeless about my sitch, I post on my own thread and avoid others as I don't want to be fake or contradict myself if at all possible.
I am intrigued by your comment about my influence, as I would greatly like your suggestions on how I could better help those on here who are in greatest need. Helping others is therapeutic to me as well and part of my character trait of altruism (or so I would like to believe). I'm open for suggestions and will PM you the examples I mentioned as soon as I can track down the posts. Thank you again for taking the time to peruse and respond to my posts, and again thank you for all you do.
Peace to you all.
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Thundarr, just my .02.
In my opinion, you have yet to really heed/apply a lot of the advice giving to you on MLC. I understand and went through the pain and the difference you may be seeing is a lot of the people here 'suck up' the advice and apply it to them selves and their sitch and share their experience's on how the advice helped and grow from it. You, my friend, I feel, think you take advice and apply it but in reality you find yourself back tracking and forgetting it is MLC and again want answers from your W. There are none Thundarr. Every story here starts 'in MLC" You can find lots of answers to yourself here when you let go of logic.
I feel your to hurt to see MLC is a process that just plain and simple, defies logic. It cannot be fixed with any of your training, logic lenses etc. Throw your training and all logic out the window and go back to MLC training square one.
You will/can not get past your own hurt "at times" to see others trying to 'help' you along with tips on how to 'get by' while the process happens. It has been stated 1000's of times to work on yourself, that has to mean something right?. meaning STOP thinking logical and just do for Thundarr and his children. We all go through our own hurtful tunnel and how long you remain in the hurtful tunnel depends on you. This site/forum is a VERY helpful tool to get through OUR tunnel, not the MLCer tunnel. That HAS to be understood.
I have read enough of your posts to know your sitch and even responded to you quite a few times here and some on LT. You my friend are stuck and it is causing you at times some frustration which sometimes can leak out. ( happens to us all, lol)
Instead of re reading your own posts to see if you have been a "good boy" (lol, JK). Reread some of Ready's, HB's, Stayed's and all of RCR articles again and this time around "listen" to them with YOU in mind and NOT the MLCer. :)
This Forum with the mentors in place can and does handle change. I believe it's to the Forum's best interest to grow even if an occasional 2x4 is needed and I am saying that in general.
Not to lose my point, but Thundarr, 'really' listening to the more advanced LBS's and applying and not listening to your hurt is 99% of getting through our tunnel and the fun talk and experience's here make life somewhat easier on a lot of people in my opinion.
Keep chuggin' my friend. :)
P.S. This is not a 2x4, it is an FYI and hope it helps.
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Rookie,
My friend, you are right. I remain in terrible pain and I know the recent pleasant interactions exacerbate that. But, I do want more of those and welcome them in the future and hope they aren't too few and far between. I NEED to learn how to not be reactive to the one person who I am weak to. I just have not accepted that my marriage may be over due to something completely beyond my control and unrelated to our relationship. I may never accept that. In many ways I feel like the star of "The Truman Show" in that this seems to be a script about MY life rather than my W.
As far as the "working on yourself," I feel that is often misconstrued as being "fix what was wrong with you and caused this." The last thing I need to do is to stand in front of a mirror and make a list of my faults. Of course, as RCR said, we ware always changing one way or another and this experience certainly changes us. I did not mean to imply (no, it's not denial this time) that I do not need or will not change, but rather that I have spent 2 years doing self-analysis and feel I have a pretty good handle on what makes me tick. Am I where I need to be at this point? Probably not, but at the same time who really knows who is where they should be? The reality of everything is that if you combine all the members here with those on LT, DB and any other site devoted to "MLC" you still would have nowhere near a large percentage of even a small city. We ARE the exceptions rather than the rule, and whether that is due to factors that are not immediately evident (like-minded, computer savvy, etc) or just pure coincidence is not known to me. This is uncharted territory for the most part for all of us and we may not even be close to knowing the BEST way to handle this situation, but I would argue that we are on the right track despite my "kicking and screaming" through my own levels of denial.
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T, Funny thing as I was driving back from a job today I was thinking the exact same thing about the members of mlc sites I doubt it would cover the city I live in. we are a small percentage!
I just have not accepted that my marriage may be over due to something completely beyond my control and unrelated to our relationship./color]
I really hope that you will not accept your marriage being over c'mon dude. Hfb
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T
The way forward for you is to accept that the process underway is currently not logical nor makes any sense in a therapeatic scientific way. The science is much deeper than that and as pointed out people like RCR and HB are at the forefront in identifying the process etc. Each person is an individual and therefore moves through their journey dealing with their own issues.
At the moment you are trying to look at your wife and find what 'broke' her and then mend it so as you can all live happily after. Well you can't fix her only she has that ability for herself.
Give into the process and accept it as it is.
As for self analysis. May I suggest that once you accept your W MLC as a process you can't fix you then let the process lead you through the next stage of self analysis. It will happen but at the moment you are frightened of letting go. This part of your journey is not about mending you but further looking at you now your wife is off on her alien ship. Rookie makes some very good points with regard to this in his post.
Fear keeps us all in it's grasp until we no longer let and that is major move forward. We can hang onto fear for as long as you want to. But the day you think I will be ok without my wife, I don't need her to make me happy and I can't control the outcome of this journey only God can and you truly hand her over to Him then you are on your way forward.
But what you do is give every reason why you shouldn't go there and hold yourself back. The quicker you get the process and the sense of irrationality that is part of it the better your chances of surviving. Move forward Thundarr and stop giving reasons why you should stay stuck.
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Amazing how fevered delirium actually gives clarity in some ways (or maybe I'm hallucinating). Today is my 9-month BD anniversary and I can't believe it. I realize I do fear PERMANENT change even though I've even living it for awhile now. I'm getting used to loneliness but I don't like it. All the responsibility of the kids is weighing me down (how does Ziggee do it?). D11 is becoming very ODD and I know it stems from her reaction to her mother rejecting her. S7 now asks me daily in different ways if I love him and care about him. He knows I do, but dammit, he should becable to take that for granted at this age.
Shout out to all the LT guys. Where've ya been?
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Yeah, where is Ziggee? Guess he's busy taking care of all those kids. ;)
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S7 now asks me daily in different ways if I love him and care about him. He knows I do, but dammit, he should becable to take that for granted at this age.
Thundarr, there is no way that a 7YO DOESN'T need this reassurance, with or without this crap. This is probably the most difficult thing that he has ever dealt with. If he was 17, he would still need it. 27? I would agree with you. I'm not sure that I understand your position.
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Wow, see, you go away for a few days and come back to a flurry of activity. Such amazing and interesting posts on this thread lately!
I wanted to chime in as I have before on this notion of LBS growth. I love all that WP wrote here already.
I've written this on my own and other's threads before but I just wanted to honestly say that when I came here, while I felt the people were lovely and helpful and the information amazing, the "work on myself" issue rankled me to no end. To me, I could not get to a level of deeper understanding from what initially seemed like the disconnect between "you did not cause your spouse's MLC" to "You need to work on yourself". Didn't make any sense to me.
An amazing thing happened though. I did work on myself but it was not to change who I was but rather, to survive this nightmare. I did change. I have lots of things that still need changing. But these are all good things for ME. I don't really care whether they are good for my spouse and we are reconnecting so its not as though its hopeless so why care...no, it is just that I am an individual who was contentedly lost in my relationship as a wife. Sounds almost MLC, doesn't it? But I know that I can be both a wife and an individual now. I didn't even realize I was missing. But I was....inside...
My marriage had one major problem and that was the lack of honest communication. We managed to live with it and be happy on some level but it was not healthy. I know that now though I did not know it then. That is a problem that will need significant work as we move forward.
Like HB, I was a pleaser. I still am and that is my comfort zone but one that often leaves me angry, sad, disollusioned. I have to work on my "fault" of being too nice. That's the truth. I don't blame myself for being at way but I can't make the world adapt to me...I have to adapt to it and why should I be miserable because people don't reciprocate? That's become apparent.
I have been changing despite my protestations. My marriage will change too...already has though I hope in a positive way in the future. So I just want to say that I understand the resistance, sometimes the downright perception of insult, that we need to change but it requires deeper thought than the knee jerk reaction I at least had.
I did not cause my H's MLC...my marriage did cause my H's MLC...he owns that 100%, loud and clear whether our relationship needed work or not.
But it was good for me to change...not my core but the way I dealt with things. I have a long way to go but I recognize now that this work is good for ME and will make ME ultimately happier.
I hope that for everyone here. I've changed as I've watched my H pass through each stage, despite myself.
And I do believe there is hope for people here regardless of odds or stats. No guarantees and no clinging...just general hope as there should always be in life.
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Thundarr,
As far as the "working on yourself," I feel that is often misconstrued as being "fix what was wrong with you and caused this." The last thing I need to do is to stand in front of a mirror and make a list of my faults.
Actually, I don't think ANYONE wants to stand in the mirror and make a list of our faults. I certainly didn't want to!
But, BD hit me HARD (just like everyone else, here) and I was forced to look at myself. At the time, I was full of so much guilt - after all - it WAS all my fault? Right?
I spent a great deal of time soul searching and found - yes...I had some things about myself that I didn't really like and yes, I wanted to change those things for ME. I also found out - there were quite a few really great things about me. I learned to like myself, I learned to be alone (even though I prefer NOT to be) and I learned that the only limits I had were the ones that I put on myself. I also learned that I did not need my MLCer...that I could live, - heck - I could even thrive without him.
Does that mean that I no longer hope for reconciliation? No. Not at all. But, I no longer "live" for reconciliation. I live for me and my kids. As far as my MLCer - he's on his own.....I really wish him well....I really do. But, I can't help him......and I accept that now.
Of course, as RCR said, we ware always changing one way or another and this experience certainly changes us. I did not mean to imply (no, it's not denial this time) that I do not need or will not change, but rather that I have spent 2 years doing self-analysis and feel I have a pretty good handle on what makes me tick. Am I where I need to be at this point? Probably not, but at the same time who really knows who is where they should be?
Only YOU know the answer to that one. When you realize that you are "there" (where ever that may be) - you will have been there for awhile. You may not even notice it - until you are already there. I know this sounds like some kind of code....but it isn't. That's just the way it "worked" for me. One day, I noticed, that I was no longer getting upset about anything to do with my MLCer......(It wasn't that long ago, either). ;)
The reality of everything is that if you combine all the members here with those on LT, DB and any other site devoted to "MLC" you still would have nowhere near a large percentage of even a small city. We ARE the exceptions rather than the rule, and whether that is due to factors that are not immediately evident (like-minded, computer savvy, etc) or just pure coincidence is not known to me. This is uncharted territory for the most part for all of us and we may not even be close to knowing the BEST way to handle this situation, but I would argue that we are on the right track despite my "kicking and screaming" through my own levels of denial.
I do believe that we are the exceptions, rather than the rule.
I am very curious to see where the strategies used here by all the Standers take us. My hope is that the majority of the posters here (I know ALL is way too high of a hope???) - keep sharing their stories - regardless of the outcome. This might be the first real collection of data regarding Standing and the impact Standing has on not only the marriages, families and relationships, but the impact on the LBS.....
L
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Thundarr- I understand what you mean about S7 should feel very safe, and not need to question a parent's love. I know I have not been perfect... but my S8 acts out, and I think it's to 'test' me to ensure that I still love him.
BonBon-Yes I believe you are correct regarding us being the exceptions... Nobody in real life understands this... heck, sometimes I still wonder if my Wife has MLC or not....
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I did work on myself but it was not to change who I was but rather, to survive this nightmare. I did change. I have lots of things that still need changing. But these are all good things for ME. I don't really care whether they are good for my spouse and we are reconnecting so its not as though its hopeless so why care...no, it is just that I am an individual who was contentedly lost in my relationship as a wife. Sounds almost MLC, doesn't it? But I know that I can be both a wife and an individual now. I didn't even realize I was missing. But I was....inside...
Well said Bon. :)
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. All the responsibility of the kids is weighing me down (how does Ziggee do it?). D11 is becoming very ODD and I know it stems from her reaction to her mother rejecting her. S7 now asks me daily in different ways if I love him and care about him. He knows I do, but dammit, he should becable to take that for granted at this age.
I get by with a little help from my friends... including the two oldest.
The other day I was tucking D5 into bed... she was very upset and crying... and then at some point she says... I wan't mamma. Well my first reaction is oh yes more fall out from MLC... but then I thought you know.. the kids have been going to bed pretty well... and MLC or not... there are going to be nights that the kids are upset about something. Not ever tear or every bad mark at school or ever conflict is related to this one event that seams to take over every aspect of our lives.
Flip side of the equation would be... it should would be much easier to handle all these bumps and bruises as a couple... instead of D16 to play half mother half big sister... S22 playing 1/8 mother 1/4 father and me filling in all the blanks... but so far so good.
I have 6... but if I had just 4 the younger 4 it would be A LOT harder... I have 4 plus two live in sitters.... so I have it a LOT easier then most... the number just seems big and shocking. Even the younger ones see the bigger ones chip in and step up.
Z.
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Ziggee! Good to hear from you. :)
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Great to hear from you again, Ziggee!
I guess the root of my frustration is how LITTLE D19 helps me out, but she does work and go to college so she's not completely lazy. As far as helping me clean I'd have better luck asking my W to clean my house. And when she babysits them she is usually sleeping and paying them no attention. I love my babies and they will never be burdens, but it is overwhelming at times. What makes it even harder is that it seems D19 and D11 would prefer to live with W if she would let them. W did give S7 a bath last night and helped S7 with his homework when I asked her to so I'm not trying to vilify her at all as I often think or assume she is doing the best she can.
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I read so much about MLCers not wanting to be mothers, and helping out around the house etc.... Mine is completely opposite.... she wants to be with the kids, she cleans them, feeds them, does homework with them - etc.... Ideal mom.
are there other MLCers like that? This is what makes me wonder sometimes. Ideal sitch for her is that she continues to be a great mom, keeps the house, and everything in it. just without me.
Me, she wants out of her life. Every remnant or reminder of me, she needs cleansed with holy water and disinffected and sanitized.
Everything was separated, even when I was in the house, my food is separated from hers and the kids, my bottle of PAM, and her bottle of PAM, my milk and her milk.... She locks the door to her room, like I am an outsider, just a stranger. All she would do is go online, or watch TV. She would not talk to me, she would just be angry. She says I 'stress' her out.
She wouldn't even want to look at me. If she 'had' to look at me, she would peer through the crack of the door.
She was 'stuck' and miserable and angry. In the beginning, she would say just pretend I don't exist, and pretend like you rent the family room out.... just ignore me.
She had an EA, she said she loves me, but has no feelings for me, says she feels trapped, has a long list of my flaws. She said I should have 'let her come to her senses' herself. She said I didn't listen to just leave her alone.... When she would say that in the beginning, I would ignore her for a week, and then try again to see what I can do... I suppose things could have been different if I would have just left her alone... but instead, I pushed, I pursued, I asked questions, I became angry, I moved out and back in the house 3 times.... She was a SAHM, and was abandoned by her mother as a child emotionally, she was never on her own, and she was totally dependent on me.... she has an avoidant personality, and she never shared her feelings with me, she had little to no friends.... all seem to indicate some emotional problem... This started at 42... this is MLC isn't it?
14 mos. in, and I am still questioning it.
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HoboTB,
I think it is. Remember that not every MLCer abandons every one in their life. Some ditch all of their family and their friends....some just the family...and some just the spouse. Just because she's being a good mom does not mean she's not in an MLC.
If she were just unhappy in the marriage, would she be doing these crazy things like separating the food, speaking to you from behind door cracks? I doubt it highly. Rational people seeking divorce don't act that way.
As for making it worse, there are very few of us who didn't do those same things for a long time...I hounded my H relentlessly in the beginning trying to figure out what went wrong, what I could do.....don't beat yourself up for that. That's an all too common pitfall and one that makes perfect sense in a normal world...this is not a normal world as you know...
Bon
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The last thing I need to do is to stand in front of a mirror and make a list of my faults.
OMG! This is awful. I am now imagining myself naked in front of the mirror. :o :'(
Did you have to conjure that for me?
Fat stomach.
Flabby thighs.
OMG I have wrinkles!
Back to fat stomach…I can’t avert my eyes.
Is that a gray hair?
I don't understand the "heckler" comment, so I would appreciate it if you would elaborate.
It’s not bad or anything.
So picture this. I’m speaking about MLC and I start with an MLC stand up comedy. To make the scene even better…I’ve lost weight and look great. ;D 8) I mean, I’m not on stage in a bikini, but I could be…
You, Thundaar, are in the front row. You are laughing and you’ve got a mischievous grin. You keep interjecting comments as I deliver the jokes.
That is all well and good. But the serious part is that beneath that façade is anger and pain and you are using the humor to cover it up—but you know that already.
My Dad is like that. He describes himself as silly and he can be, but he can’t hide from me that he is bitter and angry and using his silliness to mask the pain. He knows it is his defense too, but sometimes he is too defensive with it and it becomes his sword for hurting others.
Thundaar I don’t see you directing a sword at others, but I do see that some people feel overwhelmed by your pain when they try to help you and many have simply stopped trying because to them you aren’t listening. I know that this is a process of gradual learning and some take longer. We have those who are the victim at the pity-party, crying and sobbing on their threads when they aren’t slashing their MLCer’s tires. You are the life of that party—no crying. Well, you might be crying but we can’t see your tears because you are too busy dancing on the table with that lampshade on your head and you get others riled up with all the partying.
Frankly, I’d rather have you doing that than being the sobber, but both you and the sobber are still at the party.
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TB,
Your sitch definitely seems unique, but like Bon said they really are all different. I'd suggest you stop trying to make sense of it and focus on what you know. I do suspect an APD though.
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Geez, RCR, I hope I'm not triggering an MLC with you! You're still young and beautiful!
I see what you mean with the heckler part now, but sometimes I really am in a good mood and I've learned to use humor to break ice and help build relationships. My W and I used to laugh all the time (we did Saturday) as we both were always laid back procrastinators. Now, my W is the opposite of that as is usually the case.
But yeah, the anger and pain (about 85% pain 15% anger) is still there and exacerbated by my kids suffering.
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Thundarr - APD = Avoidant Personality Disorder?
I think so too... I've read up on that, there really isn't anything anyone can do for that either right? The APD sufferer knows this, and I've seen support groups for them.... It's basically extremely shyness and low self esteem caused by some childhood trauma or some other trigger?
Have you dealt with this disorder in your work? Anything I can do to help? not with the MLC, just with her.... even getting a job. Surprising she was able to strike it up with OM...
I mean she is not totally anti social.... just difficult for her to make friends is all.
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I've not dealt with this to my knowledge, but it may be something that doesn't get diagnosed until adulthood. Personality disorders are treatable but not with meds, They are mainly treated by talk therapy, and I would assume that Exposure Therapy (forcing yourself into an uncomfortable situation) would likely be one of the primary techniques. I don't think you can help her until she realizes she has a problem, just like an addict. I wish they made magic wands for this but unfortunately they haven't been invented yet.
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Thundarr, this is a 2x4. It pains me some but i understand you are in to much pain to actually see your kids are frightened, angry, hurt, did i say scared!!!!
You think because you have shown love to your kids over the years it should be obvious to them that you love them?
Actually they see/feel their ROCK going down and they know if you go down they go down.
YOUR a therapist! I am telling you to get back on your feet and start one thing at a time. just one thing and master it starting with building the confidence back in your children. Of course D19 is in her own world. DO NOT think she should assume ANY more responsibility than she had before all this. It almost sounded to me like you expect her to take over for her mother. She is lost too with all this and is a teenager to boot!!
You need to be the one stable parent to DO IT ALL for now. That is your trial that God has sent you on.
Get busy living! Pick your self up and then give back your kids the security that they deserve all by yourself!
YUP, all by yourself thundarr. one task at a time. when you master your kids security back you will be rewarded my friend.
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Now let me get this straight, I missed this whole discussion and in trying to catch up it appears Thundarr is Heckle and Jeckle and RCR is naked in front of a mirror ??? I need to stop skimming and READ this stuff...LOL!
and where's my anger and bitterness? Haven't really seen any and my humor is always there but not covering up anything...just amazed at how human behavior good and bad can be pretty funny. Especially when you're dealing with an MLCer :o :o :o :o :o :o They have a tendency to say things like my H yesterday, the 1 year anniversary of pushing me away on a street to go be with Bowser, instead : " Are you OK? I never meant to hurt you or make anyone sad. I am worried about you"
A lot of material in there ya know ???
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Well Mamma, your reply to him should have been "nobody's hurt and nobody's sad so what are you worried about"? Lol
I bet he would chew on that one for a while! Lol
Your right though, there is a lot in what he said, to me it's mainly about himself.
P.S. I don't drop in to often but I still check your threads/posts for all your humor and you never disappoint. your one of a kind! :)
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Please listen to Rookie, Thundarr. Lord knows I've said the same thing to you over and over. For the sake of your children, please listen.
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I don't get it. I'll be the first to admit here. I thought I was doing pretty well as evidenced by holding down the house, making sure homework is done, paying bills, providing a stable home for the kids, being there for them day in and day out, telling them and showing them I love them daily, taking them out to do fun things regularly (Ghost Rider movie this weekend!), keeping everything as much like it was as possible (just without W) and even excelling at work to boot. If what's being said amounts to "just get over it" then I'm lost. My W meant and means far too much to me and our family. I still love and miss her, and cannot prevent her behaviors that negatively impact the kids but I do the best I can. In many ways I think I'm doing all that's humanly possible. S7 and I are playing video games together as I type this, and D11 has already gone to bed to rest due to being sick. S7 hasn't missed a day of school yet and both are making excellent grades. I do still hurt but that's only natural I would think, and it's not nearly as much as it was. Springtime and more outdoors time will make a world of difference.
So, what else should I be doing?
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That I have to say is pretty darn positive! I firmly believe in a positive attitude!
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T.
stop keeping score...
Z.
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Thundarr, to me, in your recent post you talked about S8 asking you if you still loved him. why does he ask that? and you also feel he should understand you do. We get that you do, but we are not asking you the question, S8 is.
You should read about kids and separation of parents. I thought as a therapist it was basic training for you and this is not a slight. I really did think that.
Any idea what a child of 8 is really thinking when parents separate. Well I have read a lot and learned a lot as I too have an 8 yr old and a 5 year old and also a 17 yr old and a D19. You need to get on one knee and look your little one right in the eyes so you know you both are listening and tell him everything is going to be ok because daddy is here.
I was also fortunate to be taught by my father who is a psychologist on how to listen to children and assure them first.
My ex buys all the kids 'presents' and gifts. thats how she deals with it/them. I feel you are doing a good job 'holding the fort down' but i did hear your frustrations about the kids and I do hear more about what your ex is doing/not doing (which is understandable when dealing with mourning) but you need to let her go. You have bigger fish to fry that can be fixed including your grief.
Just trying to help thundarr. I was you my friend. again the rewards will come.
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And I always appreciate it Rookie (and all)! S7 has been sleeping with me since W left and I know it's security for him. I do put a positive spin on it to the kids and we sometimes laugh at W's antics. If you look at some of my older posts my kids have a good handle on what's going on, better than W definitely. S7 has always been very close to me and is the baby of the family so he needs a little more attention sometimes. All 3 have their different needs and express themselves in their own way. I do get that, and thanks to Rover I found the mental focus early on to protect the kids and shelter them from this as much as possible.
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Ziggee - you said: I have 6... but if I had just 4 the younger 4 it would be A LOT harder... I have 4 plus two live in sitters.... so I have it a LOT easier then most... the number just seems big and shocking. Even the younger ones see the bigger ones chip in and step up....I hear ya pal! I have 6 kids also but mine are divided 4 older and 2 younger. You are fortunate that your older ones have stepped up and taken off some of the load. My wife's insanity has pushed my older 4 semi-adults into their own little worlds. So add on another teenager (my wife) and my world spins around with mounds of disrespect. Sad too, we did pull together at first but since this whole MLC has dragged on for now nearly 10 months (yes, Thundarr and I are very close on this) this time around (2nd time for her to start this cr*p) they don't even help me out with nearly anything. Walk away from it all? Don't think I haven't thought about picking up my 2 babies (S9 and S5) and try to make a better life at it. But I am still STANDING at this point.
Thundarr - sorry for that small hijack brother. D19 is doing OK, and I know you need more out of her. Your wife sees D19 as competition yet she also sees her as trying to be a BFF. Yes, your wife needs to be a MOTHER not D19 or D11 BFF. I have seen what you have wrote lately on D11 and her pain. BTW, they (W, D19, D11) might be on the same "cycle" as hormones play a part in these young Ds lives right now.
What set you back was your weekend with wife...you say you had no expectations but that is actually unreal. I know, I did the same pal. You and I are like brothers man! We do nearly the same as we are cosmically connected as we have discussed. Keep giving the kids as much of a normal life as you can. Do the regular routine and throw some curve balls in there to mix it up.
You are getting "cabin fever" as much as many of the LBS are. Remember, seasonal depression too has a lot of affect on many people this time of year. Heck, my wife is getting "cabin fever" and I see it in her actions daily! Talk about nerve wracking!
Rookie is right, your children will see through the charade of gifts and other ways your wife is trying to buy their love. I am not saying she does not love them. But it is her guilt that is in control right now. Of course we don't see their guilt and shame, in fact typing this I have troubles even accepting that they have any. But I am reassured by MANY on this board it is their fuel and they can't stop. Peace brother, text me any time this weekend if you want.
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Thundarr, to me, in your recent post you talked about S8 asking you if you still loved him. why does he ask that? and you also feel he should understand you do. We get that you do, but we are not asking you the question, S8 is.
You should read about kids and separation of parents. I thought as a therapist it was basic training for you and this is not a slight. I really did think that.
Any idea what a child of 8 is really thinking when parents separate. Well I have read a lot and learned a lot as I too have an 8 yr old and a 5 year old and also a 17 yr old and a D19. You need to get on one knee and look your little one right in the eyes so you know you both are listening and tell him everything is going to be ok because daddy is here.
I was also fortunate to be taught by my father who is a psychologist on how to listen to children and assure them first.
I feel you are doing a good job 'holding the fort down' but i did hear your frustrations about the kids and I do hear more about what your ex is doing/not doing (which is understandable when dealing with mourning) but you need to let her go. You have bigger fish to fry that can be fixed including your grief.
Just trying to help thundarr. I was you my friend. again the rewards will come.
Exactly. Thundarr, your S7 will need constant reassurance that you love him, that this is not his fault in any way, and that you will always be there for him. It's obvious to you and me, but HE is 7. For whatever reason, I don't think that you are seeing this through his eyes.
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I know he does need constant reassurance and he gets it. As a CBT therapist, I know full well that traumatic events that happen between ages 3 and 7 are the most likely to endure into adulthood so I've worked to minimize the damage to him as much as possible. He snuggles next to me on the couch every day and often will cling to me at night. Seeing him go through this is really the hardest part for me as the girls seem to have a handle on it somewhat. When W took him to the divorce class and he was asked to circle the faces that showed the emotions he has had about this, he not only circled "sad" but darkened it with a crayon too. None of us deserve this, but I would take 10 times the pain if I could take theirs away. So I'm on top of the kid part as best I can be.
Finding it really hard to be positive today given I'm still sick as a dog and sore and weak. Really hard to get positive. D11 is sick at home again, and I'm considering going to work just to get my mind off things even though I'm not physically up to it. Kids will be with W tonight and I'll miss them as always.
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S7 now asks me daily in different ways if I love him and care about him. He knows I do, but dammit, he should becable to take that for granted at this age.
Thundarr, I cannot seem to reconcile your previous post, copied above, with your most recent post. No one in their right mind would think that a 7YO would be able to just 'take that for granted'. I'm not saying this as a slight toward you. Rather, I really think that you need help right now. Professional help. And I don't think that this is a misunderstanding on my part either. Your other posts are disconcerting in a similar manner. I am so tyring not to be harsh here.
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Ahhhh!! I see how that post was misconstrued completely. What I meant was how unfair it is that a small child should have to question whether or not a parent loves or cares about them. I meant that he, like any child, has a right to security and love from their parents and up until several months ago he DID take it for granted. I took for granted that my parents loved me when I was little. Never even thought twice about it as it was accepted that was how things just were. The fact that he has doubts breaks my heart, as that's something I never had go face.
NEVER would I mean that he should just be able to deal with anything going in now. I could have worded that previous post better as I can see now. To me, as a therapist and an advocate for kids I feel that being loved is the last thing a kid SHOULD have to worry about.
Doc, you never have to hold back with me but I can see how you thought I was worse off than I am. If you read back in my own thread I almost always have the kids with me and do as much as possible to get them out of the storm. Thank you for your concerns, my friend, and I hope I clarified myself better this time.
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T- Doc doesn't hold back with anyone! That is what keeps it interesting and everyone on their toes!
My S8 seems to be the opposite from your S7 though.... he seems like he 'doesn't' need me... he doesn't want to talk, and is frequently rude and insensitive. I will be the consistent father but it seems like he doesn't really care whether to see me or not. I'd like for him to at least show some hint of wanting me in their lives.... he seem pretty apathetic.
It's like I lost my whole family, exiled. I do have a unique sich... Most people automatically assume I cheated or abused her, and that's why she is divorcing me. Pretty sad.
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TB,
I feel really bad for you given the sacrifices you have had to make. But you have been such a stand-up guy that you have nothing to be ashamed of. It may work in your favor that your W is staying in the house as the memory of you will be all around her. Never give up hope, my friend, as long as R is what you really want. She can't stay that way forever.
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Most people automatically assume I cheated or abused her, and that's why she is divorcing me. Pretty sad.
Hey, let people think what they want to think. If anyone cares, they will ask. And when they do, you tell them. Absent that, F 'em. Life's too short to run around worrying what other people think about you. You keep doing the right things and be the good person that you are and the rest will sort itself out as needed. This mindset alone will put you in a better place.
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Hobo,
Going out on a limb here when I speak of the "masses" but I think for all the progress we've made in gender stereotypes, the default assumption may be that the male was a cheater or wanted out. Not fair. Couple that with so few out there truly knowing of the MLC and what it really means, and that it is not in any way exclusive to males...yes, I'm not surprised people make incorrect assumptions. I wish that were not so.
The bottom line though is no matter what people assume, we all suffer the humiliation of our spouse's MLC in one way or another. That can mean people making the wrong assumptions or our spouse's public acting out in various ways. It's all galling and unfair as hell. Stand tall and try not to let what people think bother you...not easy I know. That said, its just a broader aspect of learning we can't control our spouses, nor can we control anyone but ourselves. What we think and what we know is all that counts when you get right down to it.
I'm sorry about the situation with your son. I have to think this will all be ironed out ultimately....
Best,
Bon
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MLC is very very hard on our children both small and older. There whole world has been ripped apart and the father/mother they trusted has abandoned them.
They have a a range of swirling emotions and feelings. Fear, anger, mistrust, confusion to name a few. They won't talk to the LBS because they feel responsible for them and to upset them would be unforgivable. So they shoulder responsibility way beyond their years. They have to be told it's ok to cry and feel angry at the MLC.
My S was 12 when H left 3 days before his 13th birthday. He immediately took on the mantle of male in the family. I eventually gave him a big cuddle and told him that I wanted him to be my son not the man of the house. Once said his behaviour changed and he became a boy again.
We have to be prepared for them to challenge us, berate us and be angry with us too and also revert backwards if smaller to an earlier age in their development. This is all part of their healing towards understanding and acceptance.
Despite what our spouses have done our children deserve their childhood with unconditional love and security. They know that their father/mother isn't there for them at the moment but hopefully our children will have another parent to lean on and gain a deeper bond with until the MLCer reconnects with them. This relationship will carry them through.
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Thundarr, my kids still need, and get, daily reassurance of my love. Even after a number of years they STILL are afraid, somewhere underneath there, that I, too, might just up and leave. So I reassure them of that daily as well.
They were children when H left, they are now teens, but that doesn't change. Now they are starting to form their own opinions, but the basic need for love and reassurance is still there.
And we do the dance between making sure that they all pull their age-appropriate weight in the house, while making sure that I am the adult and they the kids.
My kids also sometimes don't want to talk; I actually force it (I use the word "force" not quite as it sounds....) sometimes; it's one thing to respect their right to silence, another to let them keep on bottling things up. And then the other trick is to know when to stop....
And yes, I get a LOT of shouting, a lot of anger, etc. I take it -- they need me to be the rock, and they need to know that the boundaries will hold even when they shove and kick against them.
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Again, I was fortunate enough to have a father who understood where I was at and picked me up off the ground at my weakest moments.
He taught me so much on how to let her twist and get a strong hold of my children and their feelings and their inside security. I too started out with resentful children and did not understand or completely ignored their own pain because of my own as I was still chasing a lost cause. She was deep in the tunnel and I didn't know what a tunnel was. ( I also thank some special friends from LT who where there at that time and taught me about MLC ).
I am no expert by any means and only know what I have been taught and experienced, but trying to manage children and their emotions and feelings is very difficult when are own are all over the place.
Thundarr, I agree that maybe I took your words wrong about S7 but that does not matter how it was taken as S7 still asked the question. The thought of him coloring dark sad circles is a classic sign, as you know, of his feelings. And TB your son is disconnecting as my S8 tried to do. We are good parents with a world of trouble on our minds at this time and some things we really do not understand or see in our children.
Lots and lots of reassurance as stated is necessary, At this time your kids may need some help also.
JA and Trustandlove talk about having to be 'the man' for some kids and bottling things up and these statements are very true and real. A great start is to have your children see their school psychologist. it will get out the things that need to come out and it will be relayed back to you. Teenagers won't be so willing but kids as young as ours will go and mine have. Unconditional love goes a long way and with the MLCer being caught up and selfish, it has to come from us.
I was told and I am going to tell you, Kids come first ( I know, we are putting them first before you keep score, lol), they are young and with out tools and their whole future depends on how we handle this most devastating crisis.
If you succeed with them, you have not only giving them valuable tools, but it will come back to you from them 10 fold. Trust me on this as I have experienced so much love back from mine and confidence from them. take your time and just give them your strength back first. it's something that needs to build. They will know when Thundarr or anybody else for that matter is truly putting them first.
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Parenting advice needed.... So my S8 wanted some cereal, I put the cereal in a bowl. He screamed, WTF, I don't want it in a bowl,,, You are the worst father ever, no wonder mommy doesn't want you'
My D10 knew it probably wasn't he right thing for him to say, and starts crying... saying she hates it when we argue and yell.
I told S8 that this is no way to speak to me, and that he needed to apologize. I told him to give me a few minutes, because I was not finished with him.
I texted W and advised that I believe he might need to see a school therapist because he is acting out. This is the second time I've texted her in the past month about this.
The only thing she has said to me about S8 was in a letter from her attorney, reminding me not to speak disparagingly about her... because my s8 asked her if she was going through a mid life crisis.
I need to set boundaries with S8, I need to show love, and have him feel secure, but what he is doing is not acceptable.
Any advice is welcome.
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TB,
Dude, to me it sounds like you took that personal. What would have happened if you had used humor and said "I thought it was because I smelled" or something. They HAVE to feel safe to act out somewhere. You just have to ride it out and process it with them when they're done. Don't expect an apology from him now. He (or you) also triggered something in your daughter. However you handled this, DON'T handle it that way next time.
I was just looking at the pic if your kids right before I read this. They are so sweet and innocent, I wish I could meet with them and help them to express all those feelings they have. Just take them to a counselor and don't involve the W.
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Hobo - sorry, this is so tough on our kids.
I have three sons - now all teenagers.
Your son needs help in understanding and expressing his feelings. Males tend to be taught, or feel it is acceptable, to have only a couple of feelings. Anger and happiness.
Males have as many feelings as females, they just need help to identify them.
'I understand that you're feeling, angry/upset/hurt (whatever it is) right now, but if you are wanting your cereal in something else other than a bowl- then say - can I please have my cereal in ..........
I have always said that my children can tell me anything, they can say anything to me. As long as they are not rude to me, I will listen.
But, as I am the grown up, even though I will respect their feelings/point of view - I will have the last say, as I am the one in charge, not them.
They need reminding of this though, as they learn.
Therapy sounds like a great idea. Do you have to discuss with your wife? Can you go ahead and arrange it without asking for her permission? I'm not sure of the laws that you have surrounding this.
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Kikki
Thundarr
Thanks for your input. For some reason, I think it's because I am acting detached from W for the past few months, and S8 may feel that there must be some reason I am not getting angry, and he wants to see me angry.... Not sure why he wants to push my buttons. Seems like everyone does, including W....
All this and the D negotiations going on.... Looks like she is giving in on alot, and I'm not sure to make it more difficult or not. She wants it all settled by the 28th and we don't have more time left.
I also don't want to drag it out, but I don't want to give in to easy, so there are no easy answers....
T- yep, would love for you to work with my kids... We have joint custody, I believe I can bring them to a therapist if I notify her, not certain.
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Thundarr - So I read what you wrote about dealing with them like any other depressed person. I think you are right. I only see monster when I've poked it in the past, whether knowingly or by accident. When they feel trapped, and when they are forced to answer questions they can't answer.
My question is when you see a depressed person, do they act with apathy towards everything and everybody? This is not the case with my STBX, I don't believe.... Seems like it's ONLY towards me.
I'm glad to see that you seem to be making some progress, but I don't see any progress at all. I don't mean in terms of R, just in terms of her wanting to talk about the kids and other things that 'normal' divorced couples need to talk about.
She also has no reservations on D, continuing to fight to get as much money as she can.
When I am cordial, she generally is, and when I don't talk about our relationship or the D, she is fine.
You are right about what you wrote on me taking what my son said personally, I did. It was painful. It sounded evil, it sounded like her. My poor daughter just wanted to have peace. So sad, she felt the tension when I was at home, and when I need to discipline my son, she would get upset, wanting everyone to get along.
I still hold anger... especially when she is asking for so much, and feel so entitled.
Empathy or not for a depressed person, I will look at the D separately.
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, but I don't see any progress at all. I don't mean in terms of R, just in terms of her wanting to talk about the kids and other things that 'normal' divorced couples need to talk about.
She also has no reservations on D, continuing to fight to get as much money as she can.
When I am cordial, she generally is, and when I don't talk about our relationship or the D, she is fine.
You are right about what you wrote on me taking what my son said personally, I did. It was painful. It sounded evil, it sounded like her. My poor daughter just wanted to have peace. So sad, she felt the tension when I was at home, and when I need to discipline my son, she would get upset, wanting everyone to get along.
I still hold anger... especially when she is asking for so much, and feel so entitled.
Empathy or not for a depressed person, I will look at the D separately.
My follow-up question to this would be how much does your daughter take after your W in terms of temperament and personality? Perhaps your W feels the same way when you and your son argue, and she may also feel like this or worse when you and she argue. Not blaming you for anything, brother, but just thinking about what image you may be portraying to the rest of the family right now whether you mean to or not. Your daughter is old enough that her perceptions of emotions are likely pretty well-developed and she seems to be very smart to boot.
Your statements about your W not wanting to talk about the kids and other "normal" things is contradicted two sentences later when you state that she is cordial and fine when you are as well. I would wonder if you might be letting some emotion trickle out when discussing the kids that you are unaware of. Perhaps when you start talking about them your mind switches to thinking about how much they are being hurt by all of this and your W is somehow able to pick up on your growing anger inside. Remember, my friend, they know us far too well for us to play games with them at this hour. Even in a fog they can often see right through us. I would suggest you make it a point to reach a level of calm BEFORE engaging with your W about anything or even attempting to. It seems she does not push you away when she feels safe, such as the pleasant interactions you guys had at the courthouse. Calm those inner fires and see if your interactions change as well.
Best of luck to you, my friend.
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Yes. you are right, I think my D and W have the same temperament. D doesn't want to have conflict, and neither does W, especially before BD. Now she is always on the defensive. She tells me I stress her out. and I do think that D feels stressed when there is conflict too. On the other hand, S seems to love conflict and provokes it. I don't like conflict either, but when I see it, I won't back down, and get angry.
Interesting dynamic. Sometimes I wonder if this is MLC at all, but perhaps it's a family relationship issue. Prior to the kids, there was not much conflict. It could be my W's avoidant personality that I never had a conflict with her. Do you think this could all be her being too stressed out?
To clarify, when I talk about things with W, she does respond positively, except for stuff regarding the relationships, Divorce and finances, and what to do with the house etc.
She also would never respond to any texts I send, including those regarding coparenting. Instead, she has her lawyer send letters to me to not to talk disparagingly about her to the children.
I am angry, I never speak disparagingly about her to the kids, but I can see that it does seep out. How do you remain so calm, and not be angry at times.... Do your kids not feel your pain and anger? Both my kids are very perceptive. My daughter is empathetic, and she never wants to talk to me about her feelings. My son see pain, and it seems he revels in making it worse, and he says how he feels. The reveling in my pain, angers me too.
I suppose one of the things I need to 'work on' is how to extinguish this anger. I actually dont have a clinging boomerang, or touch and go. I've not spoken to her in months, and she never initiates contact. It's come to a point where I am afraid to seek her out. This may be me, trying to avoid being hurt, that I avoid her.
Sometimes I wonder if I asked her out for a cup of coffee, if she would go. and if she did, what would we talk about? We are so close to 'D'.
Would anyone think it makes sense to see if she might be having second thoughts on the D?
I say this only because we will need to sell the house, and my kids will need to leave the only home they've ever known. Financially, I will be better off than her. She will barely survive, especially if she doesn't work, and need to care for the two kids.
I am not as bad off as I originally had thought. I've actually never had so much money to spend on myself before in my life.... this is because I never spent money on myself, everything was for her and the family.... this will especially be true after the house sells and the alimony and CS kicks in, before that happens, I still pay for everything. One of her things is to have me pay her MORE before the house sells, which I cant afford. Especially since I don't know how long it is before the house is sold.
I know she doesn't mean to be the way she is, and she is not evil... I am hurt, and angry. She then attacks me with a divorce while I am hurt, which angers me even more.
I've spoken to my share of divorced women, and all tell me that they feel bad that their x husbands don't see their kids daily. My STBX is so apathetic. She doesn't think its a big deal, and thinks its just a fact of life. In the beginning she did say she is 'letting' me stay in the family room because then I could see the kids daily. But that is no way for a kid to see their father living. They feel the tension. BEsides it's like I did something wrong, and am banished to the family room. I sometimes wonder where I would be had I never left the bedroom, and never left the house.
We are so close to divorce, and I am just sad to see it. I accept it, and have plans to move on, but doesn't she feel anything? She must be in so much pain because the woman that I know would definitely be sentimental about this. She used to be so sensitive. Now it's no feelings, and I don't believe she cries anymore, she is just emotionless, and seems so happy when I see her. Of course I don't let on that I am sad, but I think she knows I am.
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I wonder where your son gets his temperament from?......
A few things stuck out in your last post, but I will address the part about being calm and angry at the same time first. In my training as a therapist we learn to protect ourselves by putting up a wall to prevent our clients from passing on their emotions to us (transference). We learn to regulate our own emotions and come to a place of calm when dealing with them as we can never expect them to remain calm given the fact that they are in need of therapy to begin with. I have learned over the years to put myself in an almost zen-like state inside when doing therapy sessions as clients can sense the calm and feel less threatened and more secure in sharing their innermost thoughts and feelings. When dealing with abused kids, especially ones who have been sexually abused, this is absolutely necessary as the feelings of fear and shame often manifest right in my office during sessions and have to be addressed and processed right then and there. If I didn't have that internal balance, along with the shields up, I could either make the situation worse or even cause me to subconsciously take on some of that baggage myself (vicarious traumatization). Very few on here believe me that I can be hurt and angry (not so much angry anymore though) and still interact peacefully and gently with my W without her feeling threatened or intimidated. But I'm a professional and I DO THIS FOR A LIVING!! The average person likely doesn't have the emotional regulation skills that a professional therapist does, and rightfully so, as they are not needed in normal day-to-day life (okay, WP, go ahead and nail me on this one. lol). Yes, I often vent my anger on here and on LT but you and I have talked many times and I don't think I come across as being that angry when speaking do I? Yes, you and I have many of the same emotions about this and just as strongly. You wouldn't expect me to be able to lay out a stock portfolio or do an amortization, and I would not expect you to be able to handle one-on-one interactions like I do. That's how we can help each other out, but I do think you would benefit greatly from finding a therapist who understands and can help you with this in person.
Now, what stuck out in your post was that you mind-read quite a bit. You attribute thoughts and feelings to your W that you have NO way of knowing. Are you Professor X? Exactly. You have no idea what she is thinking or how she feels unless she actually tells you, then you may still now know. I'm trained to read body language, facial expression, voice tone, register and affect but even all that is hit or miss as people sometimes don't betray how they feel inside, especially if they don't even KNOW how they feel inside. Perhaps you could eliminate alot of anxiety in your life if you accepted the fact that you will never know what she's thinking.
Great observations about how your attitude toward your W affects her attitude toward you. I don't know that I would invite her for coffee, but I think you have alot of small-talking to do in order to get there. She obviously freaks out when you try to discuss things that she finds stressful so avoid those at all costs. Let your lawyers handle the plans for the house, finances etc. Keep your conversations civil and pleasant. My W and I talk about movies, celebrities, funny things at work and especially the kids and laugh and seem to feel comfortable in each other's presence more than we have in months. STP has been telling you this for awhile now. When you see your W today, tell her how good the kids did at bowling and share some funny moments with her. You will eventually get to a point where she doesn't dread seeing you and will not hide when you are around. Joe Cool, alright? You may still end up D, but the kids will be much less stressed if they see you all enjoying each other's company and sharing a mutual interest in them. It really can't hurt, man.
I hope this helps.
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=2189.0