Midlife Crisis: Support for Left Behind Spouses
Archives => Archived Topics => Topic started by: OldPilot on December 01, 2012, 07:52:26 AM
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http://loveanyway.theherosspouse.com/?p=1215
RCR wrote this article last month for those of us on the board for a longer period of time.
This discussion may NOT be for newbies.
I dont think we are discussing this anywhere else but if I am wrong please advise.
Anyone have any comments on this article?
Especially - How Long?
and
What do you need to know to determine your Plan of Action?
What are your needs: physical, emotional, social, financial…?
What do you want?
What do you want in the way of relationships?
What do you want out of your life in general?
What do you specifically want from your MLCer?
What are your MLCer’s abilities?
Actually, look at the abilities of your spouse rather than your spouse in MLC. An MLCer may not show empathy, but can that same person empathize when not in MLC? Or has MLC been like taking a zoom feature to all of their poor coping skills and issues that were active before MLC?
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I keep going back and forth in my head about this. I know my h has had the qualities that I want in the past...I keep hoping that they will come back when he grows up and realizes what's important in life. I think he's had MLC in spurts since his 20's...it could be something else and he may never change...but I know I'll never be happier with anyone else. I know that our good we've had together has been better than anything I've ever experienced and I hold onto those memories. I know they may never happen again but maybe in the future it can be even better if that's possible. I feel like now I have to weather the storm and play a game. I know that sounds horrible about the game...but it seems to bring out the dead emotions in h. Half the time I don't know what I'm doing..but I always know that I want to stand...even when I do have doubts.
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It has been almost 2 years. I stand because I know this person is not the man I married and he is very lost and confused right now. I stood before God and promised for better or worse til death I meant it then and I mean it now. I see glimpses of the "old" h a lot lately not sure what that means if anything when it comes to reconnecting maybe nothing. I have learned to detach and not to expect anything from him. I just live my own life each day as best I can which is not always easy. I still have some pretty bad days that make me sad and question what I'm doing. One step at a time
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I don't know if 18 months post-BD qualifies me for this discussion, but I want the best for my kids and am a fervent believer that divorce is not in their best interest at all. I feel they will have a much better life in an intact family and NEED both parents there. We will survive one way or another but I do think R is for the best. I know running away isn't.
I do still love my W and would be happier if things worked out, but its not about happiness anymore. It's about right and wrong, generally and individually, and I know D is wrong.
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Perhaps the best thing I have learned from RCR's writing is the belief that MLC is not permanent. I am a believer in the general time frames that those who have studied MLC tell us about, but I rarely think about the question "how long will I stand?".
As I look at the question below, I can confidently say there is a clear difference in the emotional abilities of my ex-wife in MLC as opposed to who she was before MLC.
Actually, look at the abilities of your spouse rather than your spouse in MLC. An MLCer may not show empathy, but can that same person empathize when not in MLC?
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Perhaps the best thing I have learned from RCR's writing is the belief that MLC is not permanent. I am a believer in the general time frames that those who have studied MLC tell us about, but I rarely think about the question "how long will I stand?".
As I look at the question below, I can confidently say there is a clear difference in the emotional abilities of my ex-wife in MLC as opposed to who she was before MLC.
Actually, look at the abilities of your spouse rather than your spouse in MLC. An MLCer may not show empathy, but can that same person empathize when not in MLC?
I second this. I stand to give myself time to heal, and let MLC run its course. I do not know that my marriage will reconcile, but I believe firmly that I won't be able to chose with certainty whether or not I want it to until he is out of his crisis. I believe I have seen enough graphic evidence from his words and behavior over the last three years to have absolute certainty that this is MLC, not a personality disorder or series of bad choices.
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I want the best for my kids and am a fervent believer that divorce is not in their best interest at all. I feel they will have a much better life in an intact family and NEED both parents there. We will survive one way or another but I do think R is for the best.
I agree.
I hope for the best, but I don't count on it. I do my best, but that's all I, personally, can do.
I did love/like my husband. He had many good qualities . Will they return...I can't say.
Do I love him now? I can't say I feel any feeling that approximates what I felt in the past as "love" , I don't even feel affection for him.
What I do know is a sliver of hope remains. Until that's gone, I'm here.
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I stand because turning off would be like..... It meant nothing!
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I'll just repeat what I said in the other thread, with one additional comment.
Stand because I love my wife, and I see her crisis as a phase she has to go through. My hope is that she will reach a point where she chooses to be with me again, and I am willing to give her the time to come to that decision.
Also, there is no guarantee that a new relationship with someone else will be better or any more likely to last; it's a fact that the likelihood of divorce in marriages after the first goes up. Which makes sense; once you have chosen to believe that a marriage is unsalvageable, you are likely to come to that conclusion in later relationships as well, and often more quickly.
I see this crisis as an opportunity to work on myself, and to do things that I would be reluctant to try otherwise. I've been working on stabilizing my work and financial situations, and improving the hand I've been dealt.
As for getting involved with other people while Standing? I don't.
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I believe in MLC and its general times frames, 3-7 years. My husband has passed the 7 years and reamins in Replay. I also believe some MLCers take long and a few never come out of the tunnel. I’m not standing. I want the divorce, my money back, a life without any MLC trace and not to have to be legally tied to my MLCer. Don’t think I still love my husband. Not in a way one loves a spouse. My goal is to leave all this behind and never again have to be reminded it happened.
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AnneJ,
Ironically, as I just said on my thread it seems that those who adopt the mindset you seem to have are the ones who truly survive this. I don't think I'm cut out for it, though. Things would be so different if our spouses had died as we would still be able to hold onto the beliefs that we had about marriage. Now, given everything that's happened and what I have seen here and elsewhere, I don't know if I'll ever believe in marriage again. It seems like most of the world doesn't anymore. So, if you call realizing that moving on is not an option standing then I guess I do as I know it's better for the kids than this Hell they're being put through for no good reason whatsoever.
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Thundarr, why do you think that those who adopt the mind set I have adopted are the ones who survive? Here in the board we have people who never divorced, their MLCer had an alienator and reconciled. There are also divorced LBS who are willing to wait for their MLCer.
I believe in marriage, Thundarr. Always have, always will. That is why I don’t think it is healthy to remain married to a cruel MLCer. Let alone one like mine, who undermines and drags any chance of divorce. By doing that he is, in fact, undermining any chances of reconciliation. Probably, in his MLC mind that is not how he sees things…
Even in the most normal (nom MLC), amicable and nice divorce on earth I think a year is the minimum for a person to wait until moving on/forward/considering having someone else in our lives. If it is a MLC situation we need more than one year to seriously consider certain things.
True, things would be very different if our spouses had died and we could still hold to our beliefs in marriage. But one of the many things MLC does is to challenge and shake our beliefs regarding marriage and what marriage is.
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Anne, I wasn't counting the ones who reconcile with their MLCer and I still hope to be in that elite group one of these days. My comment was for the ones whose MLCer IS gone for good. It seems to me that the only way in those cases to reach true healing is to eliminate all feelings for the MLCer and "dump" them in your heart, completely destroying any chance of R in doing so. I will be torn either way I go, on one hand choosing moving on and leaving all semblance of the family behind or standing from now on and slowly dying.
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Thanks for the clarification, T. I’m not sure mine is gone for good… with an MLCer we never know. But the crisis has been going on for too long. More a case of changing your feelings towards the MLCer than eliminate them. From spouse/life companion feelings to neutral or friendly, but detached, feelings. Also, at a point we do realise we will absolutely fine if they don’t return. And, sometimes, we have moved in another direction, found/discovered new things. No room from who your MLCer was before the crisis (and, of course, they may also not have room for who we were before their crisis) and it is a little useless to think in trying to fit a new improved version of them into your current self and life. If, someday, they happen to cross your way and there is an interest, fine. If not, also fine.
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As another who has been in this for a long, long time, yes, i do think about this often. For a long time the idea of "standing" was in order to repair my marriage, to have my H back with us. That's slowly evolved; along the way I've looked a lot at life and my family and what is important.
Standing, if that's the word, means really thinking it through. My r with my children is probably closer as a result of all this; we really do talk about deep issues, rather than just live on the surface. I know that just living on the surface isn't an option for me any more, if it ever was. I also know that right now I need to be focusing on what the children and I need as a family, rather than just on my own personal needs. And that, too, will evolve over time. That is what I am standing for. And yes, I very much would want H to be a part of that, but that isn't within my control.
Yes, life is forever changed because of H's MLC; but then there are other things which forever change life as well. Having special needs kids forever changed life for me already; it took me years and years to fully integrate that, why should this be any different?
I've been spending a lot of time this week with a friend who lost a baby, at the point in pregnancy when it was already a baby, so she had to give birth and say her goodbyes the same day. And then live with a body that was already prepared to feed an infant. That has forever changed her perspective and her life. Something, like this MLC for me, over which she has no control.
I look at my H and see that he really hasn't got much further, and yes, I had very much hoped that he would have done so by now. But there can't be a firm timeline. Nor is there a firm timeline for me, it really is about living one day at a time and doing what needs to be done now.
In a sense I am surprised at myself, I always thought of myself as a "kick-em-to-the-curb" kind of person.... so standing has taught me a lot. I like myself better now.
I think of the Stockdale paradox often, it really is very relevant.
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Not sure if I am too new to be here but here goes.
I stand because I meant my vows, because my H, not the MLC loon, deserves my loyalty. Because we've shared so much and almost 18 years simply can't be erased even if he and OW2 think it can. I stand because I do honestly think he's lost, I think he's in pain, and because I was taught to never quit or give up on someone you love.
As long as I'm married I will not become involved emotionally or sexually with another. Until we D I will not give up on my marriage. My biggest fear is that when we D I will at last be done. I worry that is letting him down. Totally insane I know, but my H was worth such loyalty.
I recognise much of my feelings about him are related to control. But I also recognise what will be will be.
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Initially, I Stood to get back the M. Now I Stand to get me back. I have stated on more than one thread that I feel Standing is a grace period, a resting place where no decisions have to be made. You can just be. I Stand to heal myself as I watch my personal Turtle, Condo Carl, and wonder will he ever start to move? I am just glad that Standing has taught me to be less reactive and more responsive. It has also alleviated a lot of my guilt that I should be doing "something" to fix this.
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Initially, I Stood to get back the M. Now I Stand to get me back.
I like this... a lot! This says all that needs to be said!
hugs Stayed
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Thanks Stayed, ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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I agree Learning. Standing is for us, while it's the one thing that leaves the door open to reconnecting with our spouses, it is so more about learning to cope, to heal, to gain strength to, in the end, make the best decision for us.
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Oh yea, wondering... you nailed it!
hugs Stayed
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Well Learning and I were just sorta of discussing something similar while we had lunch together. I was telling her, while H and I are working on our marriage/reconnection, it was nothing I did or said that helped his MLC along which is still ongoing. If fact I did/do much wrong. But, I believe it was learning to stand, to start to heal, to "live" again that kept the door open. It's only if and when the MLCer decides to turn towards the LBS whether we are still willingly to try to make it work. I'm sure there are a lot of factors involved in standing. How much damage did the MLCer do, length of time, etc. I'm still standing, no guarantees this time will work. Infidelity , mistrust is most difficult to get through but it's a work in progress. I believe it will take us both several years....but it's worth it with the possibility of a even better marriage.
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RCR is starting a series on the blog about the subject, first post came out earlier today
http://loveanyway.theherosspouse.com/?p=1346
Comments?
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I think this first post is similar to articles on the main site. Looking forward to read RCr further blog posts on the issue.
However I have a problem with this (always had since I first read it): “my reality was that Sweetheart was choosing to cheat and leave. “ If an MLCer is choosing to leave, cheat, mistreat the spouse then, to me, it contradicts the urge/compulsion (to abandon, to run, etc).
The urge/compulsion to me is similar to the one in drug addicts/alcoholics. It is not a case of choice but of not be able to stop it. If MLCers are choosing, and totally aware of their choice, then, well, to me it makes no sense to have compassion or stand for them.
I think they are not fully aware of what they’re doing but that may be me trying to smooth the whole thing…
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I was telling her, while H and I are working on our marriage/reconnection, it was nothing I did or said that helped his MLC along which is still ongoing. If fact I did/do much wrong. But, I believe it was learning to stand, to start to heal, to "live" again that kept the door open.
Wondering - the longer this goes on, the more that this is sinking in, and I guess is the reason why whatever we choose to do must be for ourselves, first and foremost. What makes this easiest for us to get through this mess?
I'm sure there are a lot of factors involved in standing. How much damage did the MLCer do, length of time, etc.
Absolutely agree with this. Most of us are yet to find out how far our spouses are going to push this thing.
However I have a problem with this (always had since I first read it): “my reality was that Sweetheart was choosing to cheat and leave. “ If an MLCer is choosing to leave, cheat, mistreat the spouse then, to me, it contradicts the urge/compulsion (to abandon, to run, etc).
The urge/compulsion to me is similar to the one in drug addicts/alcoholics. It is not a case of choice but of not be able to stop it. If MLCers are choosing, and totally aware of their choice, then, well, to me it makes no sense to have compassion or stand for them.
I think they are not fully aware of what they’re doing but that may be me trying to smooth the whole thing…
AnneJ, my thinking is that they are choosing to do what they are doing, but they are making those choices within a newly warped and distorted perception.
Kind of makes sense to them at the time, but underneath it all, they know it's wrong. Personally, I believe the brain function is affected which changes their personality, morality and impulsivity. Sadly, this affects their decision making, what they perceive is acceptable, and their lack of empathy towards others regarding the devastation this causes.
Not giving them a free pass at all, but when you get bad behaviour, I do believe we need to look at brain function (unless of course that bad behaviour was there all along), which for most of us, it wasn't.
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Hi they are choosing to cheat etc as they know whatvthey are doing but their choosing is taken with an irrational mind and with a lack if clarity, so they think this Is the only choice, so run and hide from the real issues. As an unrepressed person I have a rational and a sense of clarity so I would not choose to run and hide, I have found out what is, has happened with my MLc er and I am design with my issues and my choice is to live day to day and get on with my life. My h choice is still irrational and lacking clarity, so his life is not going forward, but same old, same old, everyday.
We all make choices every day but they have to be informed and made with a sound mind. We all know MLc ers don't have that.
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Kikki And G Hewitt, I know about the brain thing, and I get they are making choices within an altered mind but to me, in the context it is placed, that “choosing” is misleading and contradictory to the urge factor. The main site, and blog post, do not include notes on the brain function, so, you just read ““my reality was that Sweetheart was choosing to cheat and leave. “
Maybe I’m not making myself clear?... Anyway, choosing is not the word I would have used in the context RCR used it. Probably it would be “my reality is my husband was having a brain imbalance that created a compulsion to cheat and leave”.
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Hi Anne
I knew what you meant, and I was describing how I view things. I think (but RCR would have to speak for herself) that RCR might view things slightly differently?
From what I have read, RCR believes that there is altered perception, but possibly believes it is because of the psychology of Jungian theory, developmental theory etc, as written in the articles???
So, I understand why she would write this - just that for me, I needed to understand it in a more physical way. For me that came with recent developments and study in brain scanning and research.
Just as RCR writes about Dis-ease rather than disease. This has always caused me to be curious, and personally, from all that I have read, I do believe it is disease. Just that very little is known about it.
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HB used to occasionally write about altered brain chemistry, but it wasn't her area of interest either. I haven't ever read anything else written about this subject from her - as her approach is also along different lines.
For instance - the voices of the children that she writes about, can be explained medically, with very low serotonin levels which give rise to the black thoughts and negative voices.
As this is such a large jigsaw puzzle, it is great to have all of these ideas coming together.
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Hi Kikki,
I would also like to hear from RCR on the matter as well.
Have you been reading my lastest thread, the one where I meet a neuroquantum scientist? I’ve been making some post about the brain, and a few others have been leaving their contributions.
I’m currently finishing a post on more brain stuff and where I talk about maybe trying to do my Theory of Everything. That is, how will the neurological/chemical part combines with the development/personality, if it does… I’m trying to think how to interchange it all.
Like you I need to understand it in more physical ways. And for me, the alterations that go on during MLC are a disease, or, at least, a temporary medical condition, that, if understood and spotted on time, could be mitigated.
I like both RCR and HB writings. They help me to have other perspectives on the matter. I’m all for the biological cause, their views add the emotional and psychological level that I’m not so good with.
When f HB writes about the voices of the children reminds me of the voices a schizophrenic hears. We know MLCers have traits of several psychiatric conditions so I wouldn’t find it very weird if, at certain point in their crisis, they would have symptoms of schizophrenia. My cousin was diagnosed with schizophrenia, borderline, psychotic, obsessive-compulsive-disorder and bipolar (at least). He is none of those things but showed symptoms of them all.
Like you said, the voices could also be from depression. Suicidal people hear a voice in their head telling them it is over. My cousin heard that voice when he was spiralling deep into rock bottom.
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Hi Anne
No haven't read the latest on your thread - will have a catch up soon.
I too like the coming together of the biology and the psychology of the crisis information.
I spoke to a fourth year Med Student last week, who had just come off a 3mth psychiatric placement. I didn't mention anything about any of this, but we talked about her experiences on the ward.
She mentioned the voices, and I asked when they would expect to 'see' them, in which conditions, and yes, she said both schizophrenia and also major depression.
Said they are usually so negative, that they have to watch for the patient's safety. All the while, the core person is still in there under neath it all. Frightening stuff.
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My H heard the voices, too - as did I, but I don't think on the same scale. H said his told him to hang himself in our garage. :( Then later, same day, he said he heard no voices at all and had no idea what I was talking about.
With Schizophrenia being a dopamine imbalance (too much - which if I understand tips the scales on serotonin to be too little), this continues to support the extremely low serotonin MLC theory (I'm with you on it, kikki!). The esoteric viewpoint of it being "the children" as HB wrote is the other side of the same coin to me; it's low serotonin that is the underlying root, but it manifests as these demons of our past to our cognition. All so fascinating if it were a documentary, not a lifestyle!!
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My 2 bits, being interested in brain function. This comes from completely unrelated reading, but might be relevant for assembling the assorted mental and physical concepts re MLC....
'Executive' cognitive function (dominated by the frontal lobes, but highly dependent on connections running from there to the parietal cortex, limbic system and even the cerebellum) is a domain of unconscious thought processes that 'manage' behavioural and cognitive activity. Executive processes are important for goal formation, planning, goal-directed action, self-monitoring, attention, and response inhibition.
I ran into the idea of altered brain executive functions in context of fetal alcohol syndrome (results in poor judgement, lack of impulse control, risk taking behaviour - though in FAS this problem is lifelong, not a 'phase'). It's not that neurotransmitter levels are 'globally' altered, but that the neuronal connections essential for this level of thought regulation are simply not working. Also plays a role in everything from alcoholism and ADHD, to survivors of prematurity, and to the extreme in schizophrenia, so it's rather non-specific! But I just wonder if the replay stage of MLC behaviour might include a (hopefully transient?!) suspension of proper executive functioning. Would explain a few things we see... poor judgement, impulsivity, risk taking...
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I had a schizophrenic grand aunt. It is crazy but the saddest is nearly no one in the family got she didn’t like to be the way she was. They put it down to: she is crazy, what is one to do? She died a few months ago. The core person is there. With meds, and depending how acute it is, a schizophrenic will be fine. Problem is, just like our MLCers, many stop taking the meds. Then they think their loved ones want to poison them, are against them, plot (and sometimes take them ahead) terrible things to hurt those evil loved ones, the cause of all their problems. It is all in their heads, like with our MLCers.
I’ve never been to the wards of the psychiatric hospital, only to the psychiatric emergency room and out patient’s but I’ve had many talks with my friend the psychiatrist.
And now I’m taking a course on neurobiology and how addiction affects the brain for beginners. I’m wrapped up in electric brain circuits, neurotransmitters, molecules… it is a all a bit too much but I’m absorbing the essential.
Oh, yes, personality disorders turn up in adolescence and young adults. It is a rarety they turn up in adulthood. My friend the psychiatrist said so and was very surprised that my cousin, who was nearly 40 when he saw him, could had developed a personality disorder at 37 (when the MLC thing become more obvious). It is different with epilepsy, that can come to the surface in any age, or the dementias that who tend to appear late in life.
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But I just wonder if the replay stage of MLC behaviour might include a (hopefully transient?!) suspension of proper executive functioning. Would explain a few things we see... poor judgement, impulsivity, risk taking...
Hi OSB, thank you so much for your input. Yes, it would explain a few things. None of us have a brain scan of MLCers to look at, so we don't know exactly what is wrong. but suspension of proper executive functioning could be one of the problems.
I think in most of our MLCers whatver it is the problem it is just a phase. However, the brain may end up with damages done during Replay behaviour because of sleep deprivation, too much drinking, too many drugs...
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But I just wonder if the replay stage of MLC behaviour might include a (hopefully transient?!) suspension of proper executive functioning. Would explain a few things we see... poor judgement, impulsivity, risk taking...
Yes osb, I absolutely believe it does explain a few things.
I think in most of our MLCers whatver it is the problem it is just a phase. However, the brain may end up with damages done during Replay behaviour because of sleep deprivation, too much drinking, too many drugs...
Annej - fingers crossed it is just a phase and is transient, but the reduced blood supply due to the depression may cause irreversible vascular changes, and may explain those that never 'wake up'.
Hopefully that is a very rare scenario and most will move through this phase of their lives successfully.
R2 - It definitely sounds like all the neurotransmitters get out of balance doesn't it, during this time.
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Fingers crossed, Kikki. :) For most it is a phase and transient. One other possibility for them never to “wake up” is if they remain in Replay forever (or until a very late age), constantly adding a high.
Some people remain on drugs/alcohol until they die, some for 20 or more years. But I think nearly all MLCers get out of the tunnel. What I think may also happen is, once out of the tunnel, liminality gone, no LBS, lots of damage to cope with, former MLCer will go, not really into the tunnel again but back to something that keeps them from facing reality.
In such case it will no longer be MLC (replay behaviour will most certainly be gone) but only a depressed person/person with no objective. Mu aunt thinks my husband has no reason to leave Replay because he no longer has a purpose in life other than Clubbing. There is nothing else left for him. Of course there may be but he will not be able to see it.
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That's a good point Anne. The addictive high becomes a long term lifestyle choice. I can seen how that could happen.
Mu aunt thinks my husband has no reason to leave Replay because he no longer has a purpose in life other than Clubbing. There is nothing else left for him. Of course there may be but he will not be able to see it.
That's terribly sad, but your Aunt is probably right. :-\
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If the addictive high become a lifestyle choice most certainly there will be empired memory, physical decadence before time and plenty of other problems.
Yes, it is sad if MR J cannot see more than clubbing. But, if I was him, would I be able to see it?... Not sure. He knows I want to divorce and have a family, he knows what he have done. He does not have a clue MLC, let alone that I know what is going on with him. So, it makes sense he cannot see an alternative.
And sad it may be I will not withdraw my intention of divorce. Mr J is in no state of being a husband. I need a husband and a life, not a man trapped on clubbing fantasy.
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And sad it may be I will not withdraw my intention of divorce. Mr J is in no state of being a husband. I need a husband and a life, not a man trapped on clubbing fantasy.
Your drive to create a healthy, happy life is a sign of a healthy brain and thought process. We all have that when we're healthy. Even in contentment, we want to make plans and move forward toward something.
This to me is why I don't think it's really possible for an MLCer to "recover" and choose to stay in their crappy MLC lifestyle. If their brain is healthy, they will naturally move toward elevating themselves somewhere. It may not be back to reconciliation with an LBS, but no one in their "right mind" moves into a life position that no longer fits. Even in their "wrong mind" - they knew they felt compelled to chase something, even when it was a downward move.
So to stay stuck, I think, means to either need treatment or not be fully cooked. ;)
But I just wonder if the replay stage of MLC behaviour might include a (hopefully transient?!) suspension of proper executive functioning. Would explain a few things we see... poor judgement, impulsivity, risk taking...
I like where this is going, OSB. This doesn't seem like something with a lot of gray area, where you're "sort of" functioning...connections either work or they don't, right? So would this be an explanation for the "suddenly" we hear about?
I think from what I've read there can be an elevation in levels of serotonin that incrementally decrease the worst of the MLC-like (or MLC ;) ) symptoms, but if that happens quickly (as in a serotonin spike), it can cause a "suddenly"-like situation that quickly changes the brain (though a spike is usually associated negatively, as when it occurs at a sudden discontinuation of SSRI drugs).
Just pondering - I think there's a scientific basis to the "suddenly" and the incremental improvement some MLCers exhibit, and if we understood it, it would help us as LBS find comfort in our partners' healing AND help us stop watching the boiling pot.
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Today is 24 mos post-BD. I feel a much wiser but very much a sadder person.
At first, I truly believed Standing would offer my H the space and security he needed to do his own healing and come back. I felt it would also offer me peace and healing, which it has. But I felt then our bond was very deep and could never really be broken and that he really still did love me. Now I think I was terribly naive. I no longer believe he has the capacity to truly love me or to come back. He is a vanisher and has not seen or spoken with me since shortly after BD. He rushed to go public with OW as I was sitting home alone with my hope, divorce me and move in with her, the two of them moving to another city to get as far away from his life with me as possible.
RCR said: Or has MLC been like taking a zoom feature to all of their poor coping skills and issues that were active before MLC? In my case, yes!
My mother and I were discussing my ex. My parents always loved him, but my mother said that something in him has always been broken, and it was going to come out at some point, and in a bad way. Better now than 10 years from now. He is very, very broken and very, very dependent on an extremely willing OW (this I know from SIL). While I think she has emotional issues, she is without the overt drama and baggage of her own broken marriage and children that might cause my ex to examine things and grow up sooner. They are like two peas in a pod, (seemingly) happy as can be with one another. I don't see a time when he will not consider me the problem and her the solution.
I feel as though I'm not exactly NOT Standing, but I'm not exactly Standing either. There's not much left to stand for. We are divorced (I couldn't prevent it), absolutely NO contact, no children, nothing to tie us together in even the casual (if painful) ways that leaves the door open to hope for so many here. Standing for me now is really just a "pause" before truly moving on without H. Do I still love him? I think I love the person he tried to be with me for 15 years. I don't know the real him. He hid himself from me. He'd have to be SO different, so open, so willing, so full of self-awareness to make a reconciliation work. I don't think he has it in him to face his own pain and mine. He'd rather run away. Even if it's forever.
BirdSoul
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Your drive to create a healthy, happy life is a sign of a healthy brain and thought process. We all have that when we're healthy. Even in contentment, we want to make plans and move forward toward something.
True. But our MLCers also want to create something and move forward. ;)
If they fuly "recover" most likey they will not want the rubish life. But what if you don't see any reason to "recover"/come out of the tunnel? Think Mr J, why would he recover? He has no incentive to get out of the tunnel. Current life is all he has.
Yes, they felt compelled. I have enough proof of that on Mr J letters to OW1 and in several things he told me early on his Replay mode.
Stuck for sure = not fully cooked. ;) Needing treatment is another possible thing but they don't think they have a problem so they will not look for help. And, remember, their close social circle sees nothing wrong with them.
Conenction either work or don't work but how long does it take for them to fully stop working? Is it sudden? Does it take a time period, during which the funcioning decreases until it stops?... If it take a while for the connections to fully stop (and I've learned everything in the brain has timmings, from micro to normal), that can explain why they take some time until the "sudden" change. For a while MLCers are intermitent.
Or there can be a decrease of serotonin. Certain drugs, Ecstasy, for exemple, deplects serotonin. Some behaviours several MLCers have can erode all their serotonin.
I think we kind of undertsand it, Ready2. :) We just don't manage to convice the MLCers they need help. And since we understand it and think there is a scientific basis for it, therefore it is mitigable, we become really upset with the whole thing.
Please take a look at my post (on my thread), where I'm trying the idea of the Thoery of Everything to MLC and tell me what you think.
Do I still love him? I think I love the person he tried to be with me for 15 years. I don't know the real him. He hid himself from me. He'd have to be SO different, so open, so willing, so full of self-awareness to make a reconciliation work. I don't think he has it in him to face his own pain and mine. He'd rather run away. Even if it's forever.
BirdSoul, you knew your real husband. MLC person is not your real husband. Right now your husband is not capable of being the man he was. I know you're hurt but 24 (2 years), like RCR says, is just the end of the beggining in MLC.
You do not have to reconcile with your husband when he come out of his crisis if you don't want to. The choice of what to do with the rest of your life is yours.
Now the most important thing is that you look after yourself. Hugs, A.
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I think this first post is similar to articles on the main site.
The first part is not meant to be the start of the post, but an overview. So I repeated my definition of a Stander along with an explanation what it means to live as though you are married.
I have a problem with this (always had since I first read it): "my reality was that Sweetheart was choosing to cheat and leave." If an MLCer is choosing to leave, cheat, mistreat the spouse then, to me, it contradicts the urge/compulsion (to abandon, to run, etc).
The urge/compulsion to me is similar to the one in drug addicts/alcoholics. It is not a case of choice but of not be able to stop it. If MLCers are choosing, and totally aware of their choice, then, well, to me it makes no sense to have compassion or stand for them.
I think they are not fully aware of what they’re doing but that may be me trying to smooth the whole thing…
AnneJ, my thinking is that they are choosing to do what they are doing, but they are making those choices within a newly warped and distorted perception.
Kind of makes sense to them at the time, but underneath it all, they know it's wrong. Personally, I believe the brain function is affected which changes their personality, morality and impulsivity. Sadly, this affects their decision making, what they perceive is acceptable, and their lack of empathy towards others regarding the devastation this causes.
From what I have read, RCR believes that there is altered perception, but possibly believes it is because of the psychology of Jungian theory, developmental theory etc, as written in the articles???
You actually gave an excellent answer to how I see things—choosing with a warped perception. But it's not one or the other--Psychological or Biological. But I think the common argument against MLC--as disease--is valid. There are so many variables and so many other things it could be and MidLC would not be an appropriate diagnostic term because as so many point out, it is not limited to those specific years even if it's frequency is greater. I also am concerned about how we pathologize things so often. I'm ADD/ADHD. But I don’t see that as something wrong with me, it's just a a different way of being. I think that in many situations it would be an evolutionary advantage—but not if everyone were that way. Just like it would not be advantageous for everyone to be a leader or a follower or too have too many cooks in the kitchen.
I think that the midlife transition is a normal part of development, but it can go awry—and um, MLC is awry. Understatement! But even then, that is what it takes for some people to get through and take those hurdles. I think that many cases of MLC are probably founded on some sort of mental disease, but not all are and there could be a variety of mental diseases that enable an MLC.
AnneJ,
But regarding urge or compulsion versus choice. To me it's just not a contradiction because I still see giving in to an urge as a choice. An alcoholic has a choice not to drink—that doesn’t mean it's easy to resist. The difference may be someone with say Parkinson's where they have uncontrollable body movements. They cannot willpower those away.
And in another view, suppose an urge really does mean he has no choice… But from my perspective the reality of my situation was the same—Sweetheart was leaving/had left me and was having an affair—choice or urge the result is the same.
I like both RCR and HB writings. They help me to have other perspectives on the matter. I’m all for the biological cause, their views add the emotional and psychological level that I’m not so good with.
This is one of those ironies. My background is Biology, not Psychology! I've only had one Psychology class and that was when I was a Junior in High School. As for Biology, well I was a Bio major--and I preferred Molecular and Biochemistry and lab stuff over field work.
But it is interesting, I studied one, but my natural skills seem to be in understanding the other.
My Jungian interests came through my writing which was traditional tales.
Some people remain on drugs/alcohol until they die, some for 20 or more years. But I think nearly all MLCers get out of the tunnel. What I think may also happen is, once out of the tunnel, liminality gone, no LBS, lots of damage to cope with, former MLCer will go, not really into the tunnel again but back to something that keeps them from facing reality.
In such case it will no longer be MLC (replay behaviour will most certainly be gone) but only a depressed person/person with no objective.
This is one of those sticky issues. I struggled with it a lot in my early days when Sweetheart was in MLC and I was advising others at the same time. I have this concern that for some, if the LBS stops Standing and basically gives up on the MLCer—stops having faith in the core person—that could devastate the MLCer and keep them in MLC. But the way you have put it may be better, because it may not be that they become stuck in MLC, but they still may not recover and may return to or remain in a state of damage and depression.
The struggle is that I don't want LBSs to think it will be there fault if they stop Standing and this happens. I don’t want them to think it is their responsibility to save their MLCer.
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Nice to hear your thoughts RCR.
It's always a little weird 'talking' for you from what we perceive from the articles.
I think the common argument against MLC--as disease--is valid. There are so many variables and so many other things it could be and MidLC would not be an appropriate diagnostic term because as so many point out, it is not limited to those specific years even if it's frequency is greater.
Yes, there do seem to be tremendous variables, but also 'the script' is enormously similar. That is the confusing part.
I think that the midlife transition is a normal part of development, but it can go awry—and um, MLC is awry. Understatement! But even then, that is what it takes for some people to get through and take those hurdles. I think that many cases of MLC are probably founded on some sort of mental disease, but not all are and there could be a variety of mental diseases that enable an MLC.
That sure is an understatement :)
Personally, I think I feel so strongly about this angle because I saw two psychotic episodes near BD from my H, and an extremely high level of anxiety for months (and I do mean extreme). He also has admitted to having had some sort of 'breakdown' or mental collapse.
I know this is not the case for all MLCers.
Like all things, I have to wonder if he always sat slightly on the manic side of the spectrum, and MLC has exacerbated this to the power of 100.
But regarding urge or compulsion versus choice. To me it's just not a contradiction because I still see giving in to an urge as a choice. An alcoholic has a choice not to drink—that doesn’t mean it's easy to resist. The difference may be someone with say Parkinson's where they have uncontrollable body movements. They cannot willpower those away.
My H said that he thought he would die if he didn't leave. Even though I see that as a choice, he probably sees it as survival.
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But regarding urge or compulsion versus choice. To me it's just not a contradiction because I still see giving in to an urge as a choice. An alcoholic has a choice not to drink—that doesn’t mean it's easy to resist. The difference may be someone with say Parkinson's where they have uncontrollable body movements. They cannot willpower those away.
My H said that he thought he would die if he didn't leave. Even though I see that as a choice, he probably sees it as survival.
I would like to comment on this - I agree with the urge being a choice - but, as most of you know, I deal with a cutter (my d17) and in one of her most recent episodes she posted this on twitter:
- I force something I shouldn't and I feel more pain... that is what it is
- ooops, I did it again, and I cry
Then a friend posts her a sad face :(
- man, $hit, I hate feeling so bad, I hate doing these things, but it is all impulse, and then I f*@k myself
- this hurts
then she posts lyrics from a song that says 'it is as if you are pouring salt into my wounds, I am imprisoned here, I will make you bleed just like me'
You may say she has a choice to not harm herself but she always expresses it as not having a choice, that it is an impulse(urge) that she has to give in to - it is because she feels numb, so she has to inflict pain in order to feel...
I think our MLCers go through something similar.
The advice to parents who have cutters is to love them and accept them, avoid confrontation, avoid 'telling' them to stop, never 'beg and plead' - interesting... also we are to validate them (recognize that what they feel is real to them) and help them believe in themselves and their self worth. Just what we LBS's attempt to do with our MLCers.
I am waiting, watching and praying for my d to 'wake up' to the fact that she does not have to self harm, that she has a choice and that she can make the right choice, she does not have to give in to the urges.
I apologize if this is TMI, but I felt that it threw light on to how 'powerful' these urges are. It is definitely not easy to resist, in fact, it is a question of 'survival' in their minds.
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But regarding urge or compulsion versus choice. To me it's just not a contradiction because I still see giving in to an urge as a choice. An alcoholic has a choice not to drink—that doesn’t mean it's easy to resist. The difference may be someone with say Parkinson's where they have uncontrollable body movements. They cannot willpower those away.
My H said that he thought he would die if he didn't leave. Even though I see that as a choice, he probably sees it as survival.
I would like to comment on this - I agree with the urge being a choice - but, as most of you know, I deal with a cutter (my d17) and in one of her most recent episodes she posted this on twitter:
- I force something I shouldn't and I feel more pain... that is what it is
- ooops, I did it again, and I cry
Then a friend posts her a sad face :(
- man, $hit, I hate feeling so bad, I hate doing these things, but it is all impulse, and then I f*@k myself
- this hurts
then she posts lyrics from a song that says 'it is as if you are pouring salt into my wounds, I am imprisoned here, I will make you bleed just like me'
You may say she has a choice to not harm herself but she always expresses it as not having a choice, that it is an impulse(urge) that she has to give in to - it is because she feels numb, so she has to inflict pain in order to feel...
I think our MLCers go through something similar.
The advice to parents who have cutters is to love them and accept them, avoid confrontation, avoid 'telling' them to stop, never 'beg and plead' - interesting... also we are to validate them (recognize that what they feel is real to them) and help them believe in themselves and their self worth. Just what we LBS's attempt to do with our MLCers.
I think this as an excellent example that demonstrates what I mean. Sure the MLCer feels it's about survival and in a way it is--life as they know it is ending; they just do not usually grasp that they are leaping into something worse and the even scarier part for some is that at times they do have that awareness and that is sometimes what causes the cycling. Sweetheart would feel stuck because he'd already leapt. Eventually he'd take action to undo the leap and then within hours or a day he'd want to leap again, but having undone it so soon, he would realize that it was he and not me who was unstable. This was scary for him because he saw himself literally going crazy.
One time he said he changed his mind (about where to be) 50 times in the last hour.
I apologize if this is TMI, but I felt that it threw light on to how 'powerful' these urges are. It is definitely not easy to resist, in fact, it is a question of 'survival' in their minds.
It's only TMI if it's something you didn't want to share. I agree that it is a powerful light on the idea of urges
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Thanks Mitzpah, that is enormously helpful. Incredibly interesting that the advice is the same. It is so tempting to want to keep telling our MLCers that what they are doing is wrong.
I too hope your daughter 'wakes up' soon.
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Quote from: Mitzpah on Today at 06:04:59 AM
I apologize if this is TMI, but I felt that it threw light on to how 'powerful' these urges are. It is definitely not easy to resist, in fact, it is a question of 'survival' in their minds.
It's only TMI if it's something you didn't want to share. I agree that it is a powerful light on the idea of urges[
VERY POWERFUL!
HUGS
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Thank you so much for sharing that, Mitzpah. Even believing in this as a process they "need" to go through, your insight has further shifted my thinking (and compassion) on it.
Prayers going up for your daughter, too. {{{hugs}}}
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I will be 24 months since BD in march,, I have been NC with MY w since April , she filled papers to divorce, I am againest this divorce, and I am not helping her to speed the process up,, I am standing and have been standing,, butI am also using this standing to work on me, to get my life back, to get back in shape mentally, physically, and money .
My w who she is now, I cannot stand , I love her, but I do not know who she is,, it is like the movie peter pan with robin williams, when the little bot looks in his eyes and he cannot see peter, because he is so far inside , the true Peter cannot come out.
I will wait on her,, and I know the road will be long, all I got is time
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I was responding to OP, regarding what we think of the first blog post, hence the comment that the first part is similar to the main site.
Well, to me, if it is midlife transition it only applies to midlife. Transitions and crisis can happen at any age but if it says midlife it can only be related to something that goes on in midlife.
I’m more concerned with the general pathologize of OW than with pathologise MLC. MLC is an abnormal situation/condition of midlife transition, the OW most of the times does not suffer from the mental illness LBS tend to attach to them. They may have symptoms, but so do we all, on occasions.
ADD/ADHD means something is wrong/out of the ordinary/in disorder. That does not make you, the person, wrong, but ADD is a disorder. MLC, for me, is a disorder. The normal is midlife transition. MLC is the disorder mode of midlife transition. All MLCs imply depression. Depression is a medical condition. I know you don’t see MLC depression as clinical depression but depression is depression, from light to severe. I don’t see how you can have an exception for MLC. Depression in adolescence, even if part of teenage years, is still depression.
I think the psychological/emotional is affected by the biological condition of the MLCer. Of course, then, the psychological/emotional condition ends up influencing the biological condition.
We know very little how alcohol really works on the brain but we know that, at a point, if is not so simple as to choose. Choose for me implies possibility. For some it is not possible to give up. Or not for a long time.
For me it makes a huge difference if it is a choice or a compulsion. I will not forgive, accept or even exchange a word with a person who choose to do what Mr J is doing. Sorry if I sound hard but if someone is doing all this in their right mind, well, they’re a monster and not a MLC one. If, on the other hand, they are battling compulsions/something is wrong the situation is different.
My background is History, Philosophy, Art, and Classic Culture. No biology or chemistry since the 9th grade until this MLC stuff come along. Jung was part of our college studies, and Jung was the reason I found the board. Jung terms: Self, Shadow; Reintegration make perfect sense for MLC, even without going into the neurobiological stuff. But the neurobiological stuff can explain how the personality changes and all the alterations we see in our MLCers.
I think there can be both situations. Some may be stuck because they realised the LBS gave up on them (even if I’m not certain how most MLCers have a clue if the LBS gave up or did not gave up on them. Clingers may have close relationship with the LBS but not all MLCers are close to the LBS) and some come out of the crisis and, finding nothing they consider worthy, dive into depression and remain damaged. No longer the same depression as in MLC. This may be more obvious with Replayers than with Wallowers.
I kind of have that struggle even if I’m not standing. Mr J has no reason to come out of the tunnel. He has no wife, no children, no marital home, none of our previous joint projects, nothing. All he has is clubbing. If he leaves clubbing la la la land and friends he will find himself on a void of nothingness. He is in a void of futility but at least he is making money and has the recognition of his peers.
The only thing that MR J has to hang to is me but I’ve made it clear I want to divorce and have a family and that he is not included in those family plans. So, did I condemn him to be stuck or did the fact that he was taking too long in Replay took me to make it clear I wanted to move on and he was not on board? … The second, I think, since I only putted it on black and white late Summer 2011.
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A huge challenge to my Standing is that I personally know of several cases of MLC where the MLCer never attempted a return, married the Alienator, and stayed married to them for many many years.
My boss had an affair with his assistant, left his wife, married A, had 2 children. Still married 15 years later.
My friend's father left his wife out of the blue (on Thanksgiving Day no less) for much younger Brazilian woman. Never attempted a return, married OW and moved to Brazil. That was 20-plus years ago.
My dear friend is dating a man who left his wife for OW in his office and then OW decided she did not want to leave her husband after all. Did my friend's BF go back to his wife? No! He is now dating my friend, 5 years after his BD to his wife.
Finally, and this is the richest of all, my ex-husband's father ran away with next door neighbor's wife, never attempted a return even though my ex's mother remained unmarried, he married the Alienator, and they are still married 30 years later!!! Ironically my ex always HATED this and copied it anyway.
So I "feel" it is far more common for MLCer to just move on with A and make the best of it than to try to repair things with spouse. And let's face it, these Alienators are not usually going to be the ones to leave the MLCer. This is the model my ex has to follow.
That said, I am envious of those whose spouses take no legal action. To me, that shows that they are genuinely torn. My H rushed into divorce. Didn't even discuss it with me. Informed me in a letter and filed on his own. No ambivalence there.
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A huge challenge to my Standing is that I personally know of several cases of MLC where the MLCer never attempted a return, married the Alienator, and stayed married to them for many many years.
My boss had an affair with his assistant, left his wife, married A, had 2 children. Still married 15 years later.
My friend's father left his wife out of the blue (on Thanksgiving Day no less) for much younger Brazilian woman. Never attempted a return, married OW and moved to Brazil. That was 20-plus years ago.
My dear friend is dating a man who left his wife for OW in his office and then OW decided she did not want to leave her husband after all. Did my friend's BF go back to his wife? No! He is now dating my friend, 5 years after his BD to his wife.
Finally, and this is the richest of all, my ex-husband's father ran away with next door neighbor's wife, never attempted a return even though my ex's mother remained unmarried, he married the Alienator, and they are still married 30 years later!!! Ironically my ex always HATED this and copied it anyway.
So I "feel" it is far more common for MLCer to just move on with A and make the best of it than to try to repair things with spouse. And let's face it, these Alienators are not usually going to be the ones to leave the MLCer. This is the model my ex has to follow.
That said, I am envious of those whose spouses take no legal action. To me, that shows that they are genuinely torn. My H rushed into divorce. Didn't even discuss it with me. Informed me in a letter and filed on his own. No ambivalence there.
I often have a question when I hear stories like these that I would like to ask. How do you know they were each cases of midlife crisis?
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Understood. I am basing the MLC label on age at the time (all 40s), longstanding first marriage, suddenness (shock) of BD, refusal to work on marriage, OW and moving out.
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My friend's father left his wife out of the blue (on Thanksgiving Day no less) for much younger Brazilian woman. Never attempted a return, married OW and moved to Brazil. That was 20-plus years ago.
This one has to be dropped from the list. The man was planning on returning but he went swimming and was eaten by piranha. While tragic, it was Karma that someone who ditched his family on the day of a great feast ended up as the main course for someone else's feast.
I stand and endorse standing because it gives the LBSer a chance to heal and make rational decisions about their relationships and really making a choice about who and what they want out of their lives.
Standing is for the LBSer to (((((heal)))) and reclaim their self-esteem.
I have not been active lately but I will be back soon.
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Bird Soul- I too am 24 months post BD and 10 mos. post D. There really is no sign that my xW wants to return, so I know how you feel. I've also read the book you gave me on Avoidant Personality Disorder, and there is a type of avoidant who is simply happier alone even though they may have spent years happily married.
So there really is no definite right answer.... You stand for yourself. There are no guarantees. My guess is that many of them are so ashamed at what they've done, they prefer not to see you because you remind them of their actions. You know what they've done.
I think they would need to be sure that they would be forgiven and are still loved before they would be willing to even consider coming back.
Hope you are well.
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This one has to be dropped from the list. The man was planning on returning but he went swimming and was eaten by piranha. While tragic, it was Karma that someone who ditched his family on the day of a great feast ended up as the main course for someone else's feast.
Ready,
You always make me laugh.
I've missed you....hope that you are doing ok.
limitless
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I have read some people who know several cases where a marriage started as an affair--so the MLCer or leaving spouse did not return to the marriage.
I have read some people who know several cases where a marriage was restored after an affair--and abandonment. (We hear of healing after an affair without abandonment or a gap between discovery and recovery even more often).
The person who knew many who married the alienator believed that was the more common outcome and Standing was futile. The person who knew many cases of restoration believed in Standing.
Both people gave anecdotal evidence--and that's just it; it is ONLY anecdotal. Of course we know someone who... fill in the blank. And some people know so many situations of one way that it gives a false appearance of being valid data.
My stepmother left her husband of 20 years in 1986 and moved directly in with the OM, her children were 8 and 11. A few months later--Valentine's Day 1987 she married the OM. She and my Dad will have been married for 26 years this coming February. And yet I believe in Standing--and I believed in it before Sweetheart came home even once.
Is my Dad's marriage good, stable or solid. Well I guess that is relative. I personally find the two of them depressing and the two together--ARGH several hours in a car with those two Bickerson's is not fun--I travelled with them recently to pick up their new puppy, why? um hello, car ride with a puppy and we stopped off to see my cousin. To me there was always a negative fog or tension in the atmosphere. I was 14 when they married--the oldest. There were four kids--2 from each side and we were supposed to be quiet at 2:00 on Saturday afternoon because my stepmother was sleeping--she didn't work nights. My Dad would hop around like a nervous mother hen trying to keep us quiet. It was a house made of eggshells--and what's so amazing is that when they moved they always seemed to find a house made of eggshells!
My Dad has wanted me to go over there for a holiday and I have so far avoided it--now I won't be as close and my sister (step) has moved away so I would want to go even less.
So sure, they are still married and she has not returned to her husband--so not much consolation in the way of Standing. But in my view their relationship--though stable or at least consistent--sucks.
Oh and my Dad told me that if he died and her first husband's wife died, my Dad would like them to get back together. He's an awesome guy--he met my Dad immediately and me and my brother too and for years we got to use the summer place (he got it in the marriage divorce) on a few weekends.
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Part 2 was posted earlier for anyone that did not look on the blog yet.
http://loveanyway.theherosspouse.com/?p=1349
More comments?
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I really appreciated RCR's explanation of the Stockdale Paradox and why it is well-suited for Standing.
I may just start pointing people to that explanation. :)
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I'm NOT standing but I did stand for awhile...up until my divorce. But...that doesn't mean that
I didn't mean my vows. I read a lot of people are standing because to quote them "I meant
my vows" I meant mine too...my h did not. I originally, like a lot of people on this discussion,
misunderstood what standing was at first. Thought it was to get my h to come back...but in
the process of standing I realized that standing was for me to get myself together without
the complications of another relationship in the way. I HAVE gotten myself together and
although love and forgiveness aren't weaknesses I don't feel like I need to stand anymore.
I don't want to stand. I want to move on with my life. If h wants me back (although at this
point it doesn't look like it) he will have to work on himself and become a different person
because I don't like the person he is now. And he would have to pursue me. In the mean-
time I'm living my life and being open to relationships that are healthy and honest...I deserve
that...I don't NEED it...I deserve it, and if it doesn't happen I'm just fine by myself.
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I really appreciated RCR's explanation of the Stockdale Paradox and why it is well-suited for Standing.
I may just start pointing people to that explanation. :)
Thanks. I was honestly quite surprised to see someone explaining how we go against the Stockdale Paradox when to me we are perfect examples of conforming to it!
I originally, like a lot of people on this discussion, misunderstood what standing was at first. Thought it was to get my h to come back...but in the process of standing I realized that standing was for me to get myself together without the complications of another relationship in the way.
I don't think that thinking Standing is to get a spouse forward (instead of back) is really an incorrect idea; that is what pulls people in the door. But it is more than that and the more comes with acceptance of the journey and Mirror-Work. Reconciliation becomes a byproduct of the journey--even if it remains the BIG GOAL at the end of the rainbow. It's not a goal you work toward directly--you get there by doing the other stuff--Mirror-Work, GAL, living your own life and celebrating it. And if you choose to stop Standing with acceptance and joy in your heart...then YAY you have made it and good for you. Now having Acceptance and joy does not mean you are without pain and anger either. The end of your marriage may still be sad, but life is still joyous because you are choosing joy.
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I was honestly quite surprised to see someone explaining how we go against the Stockdale Paradox when to me we are perfect examples of conforming to it!
Well you were reading the worst of the group..... :)
I originally, like a lot of people on this discussion, misunderstood what standing was at first. Thought it was to get my h to come back...but in the process of standing I realized that standing was for me to get myself together without the complications of another relationship in the way.
I don't think that thinking Standing is to get a spouse forward (instead of back) is really an incorrect idea; that is what pulls people in the door. But it is more than that and the more comes with acceptance of the journey and Mirror-Work. Reconciliation becomes a byproduct of the journey--even if it remains the BIG GOAL at the end of the rainbow. It's not a goal you work toward directly--you get there by doing the other stuff--Mirror-Work, GAL, living your own life and celebrating it. And if you choose to stop Standing with acceptance and joy in your heart...then YAY you have made it and good for you. Now having Acceptance and joy does not mean you are without pain and anger either. The end of your marriage may still be sad, but life is still joyous because you are choosing joy.
This is also quite good!
Thanks for that!
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I am glad I chose to stand. What started out about him has turned into a journey to finding myself. The road has been long and hard but I certainly am grateful for who I have become because of the journey. I have never felt more satisfied, joyous, or content in my life.
It's helped me to let go of all outcomes on everything and just let life happen. It's seems to be more exciting because everyday is a new day that is bright and wonderful.
Would I like for him to come home? Certainly but nothing in my life is dependent on him coming home. I'm heading into year number 4 of NC so really it doesn't matter one way or the other. I know that eventually I will have a lasting love that is based on honesty, integrity, and maturity. I won't settle for anything less.
Being single has done me good. I've taken care of my baggage, I've dealt with my FOO stuff, and I've repaired relationships, and I've rid myself of relationships that do not reflect on who I am.
Right now I'm working on changing careers so that I can do more meaningful work. I don't need a job because I have one so I'm in no hurry to find one but I am actively looking. I think it helps me to not get frustrated after all I've learned a great deal of patience.
I have found that if I put my faith in God he will bring me the right job at the right time. The one He wants me to have because it will be a purposeful career. The one that puts my gifts to use. I have seen Him work in ways that I have never seem so I leave it up to Him to do what best for me. I have the utmost faith that my life will turn out exactly how it was meant to if I stay out of my own way.
I finally feel at peace.
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So there really is no definite right answer.... You stand for yourself. There are no guarantees. My guess is that many of them are so ashamed at what they've done, they prefer not to see you because you remind them of their actions. You know what they've done.
I think they would need to be sure that they would be forgiven and are still loved before they would be willing to even consider coming back.
Hi Hobo,
Agreed. No guarantees. And I know in my heart there is shame and extreme avoidance in my H's actions (yes, just like in the book). As I am sure is quite evident I am still working through my anger, so it will be awhile before I can get to forgiveness.
Hugs to you.
Peace to all Standers and nonStanders,
Bird
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Bump...
My IC notes that standing is a great way to heal and become ready to be a fantastic spouse. 10 years from now we need peace that we tried it all and work through improvements.
Standing also creates a healing time delay if D is the option.
He commented that functioning standers become the most healthy of his client cases
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I think they would need to be sure that they would be forgiven and are still loved before they would be willing to even consider coming back.
I don't think that is fair. I don't think we can ever TRULY know what we can or cannot forgive until we actually are entrusted with the situation to try. Why would you give anybody a guarantee of something there is no way of knowing you can actually do? Honestly, I had no idea whether I could forgive my h. I am not certain I have TOTALLY forgiven him, even yet. I am usually a very forgiving person, I can not remember the last GRUDGE I carried against anybody... but this has been MUCH, MUCH MORE DIFFICULT then I ever would have envisioned. There are many layers of forgiveness. Trust has been violated and trying to find a new definition for trust, is an obstacle in and of itself.
Don't be too quick to make assumptions, no matter how loving, caring, forgiving you have been in the past. In fact, I'm not sure our spouses would trust us if we were to just UNCONDITIONALLY forgive them. I don't think they would have much respect for us, even in a recovered state, I think they would see us as weak and pathetic... not loving and caring.
In my opinion nobody should make PROMISES they do not know for sure, they can keep. This is not the NORMAL sort of "bad monkey"! I forgive you totally thing.
hugs Stayed
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For me, forgiving them and trusting them again would be two separate things. Maybe some must feel that they can be forgiven before they dare return and try to earn back trust.
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To me... and I only speak for myself... the returning MLC has to take a risk or two as well. We are taking a risk on them and whether they can ever be trusted again. Yes, we can forgive them in a superficial way, especially if they just carry on and are too CHICKEN to even apologize for all the pain and grief they have caused. I can forgive that. I can forgive somebody for being a spineless loser.
That being said, I really wasn't sure how much I was ABLE to forgive. I assumed I could forgive and get on with it... easy! Huh... I guess I just never had anything this HUMUNGOUS to forgive, before.
For me, I didn't and I am glad I didn't, give him any guarantee's that we could make this work. I thought we could, we had been great partners before, so no reason why we couldn't be again but honestly, I had not expected it to be as difficult as it was.
Perhaps you folks that have been on this forum for a while, might find it easier. You are prepared for it a bit more then I was. I ONLY know what it was like for me. I was surprised at how much pain and anger I had buried. It has to come out at some point. :-\
Hugs Stayed
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Forgiving isn't something someone HAS to to. It is very difficult to explain but it doesn't seem to work as something you tell yourself you are obligated to do and you work on it. It is something that seems to come out of the blue after you have worked through your own pain and gotten to a point where you see that life can go on and there is still joy in it. Plus you realize that we all do things that hurt people and tend to perpetuate hurts that have been inflicted on us.
The resentment seems to evaporate and you just get this feeling of release toward the offending person. I know people more studied than I have written entire books on it so I don't dare think I can explain it. It is not meant as a free ride for the offending person. Some can't find forgiveness without an apology first. But when it happens it does give a freedom to the offended person from living life filled with resentment and anger and there seems to be some miraculous side effects for the offender, too. But we are humans and not the higher power so it is a bit more difficult for us to carry out.
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One thing that helped me understand forgiveness was for me was the book let it go by td jakes. In it he explained that harboring anger, bitterness and other negative emotions really didn't affect the offender they truly only harm us. These feelings keep us in chains and we can't move beyond or where we need to because if the chains we have placed on ourselves.
When the person who has hurt us wants to return back in our lives we are more free to allow that when we have forgiven. It is okay to say you were hurt by that person while still forgiving them. When they want back in our lives it is easier to work with them on gaining trust back when we have freed ourselves from the negative chains that once bound us.
I agree forgiveness and trusting are separate but you can't work towards trust if you can't forgive.
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Look, I am not arguing about Forgiveness... I get it... I really do. The question here was when to give it.
This comment in particular is what started all this...
Quote from: BirdSoul on December 20, 2012, 07:33:51 PM
I think they would need to be sure that they would be forgiven and are still loved before they would be willing to even consider coming back.
She is saying that the MLCer would need to know this. I personally do not think that is something anybody can 100% positively guarantee. I have stated my reasons, it has nothing to do with not understanding what forgiveness is... or how to do so.
I am being honest with you here. I am not a religious person, that being said, I have my beliefs. I thought forgiveness and love was something I could do VERY EASILY... much to my surprise, I found it was not simply a case of MIND over matter... or religious beliefs.
It's not easy to forgive somebody who has no desire to admit to wrongdoing. Or admit to how much hurt, grief and pain they have caused. Now, if you people can do it... unconditionally... well then great! Lucky you!
Much to my surprise and chagrin I might add, I found that there is forgiveness and then there is FORGIVENESS... so please, no more lectures.
Hugs Stayed
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I don't think anyone was lecturing you stayed. The question was when to forgive and information was offered and opinions given about the difference between trusting and forgiveness. Rather than say when it should occur more food for thoughts were thrown in. Ultimately each person is different and religious or not if someone can't get over the anger and that drives their actions forgiveness isn't even in the equation.
Since when did providing alternative opinions or other resouces that may help become a lecture? We cànt give timelines on when a person should or should not do something but like you and your example in your circumstances the other information provided was just that more information that helped us to understand it, it was not a lecture to you or anyone. No one mentioned religion or anything on that here, so why shut information flow down. My post was about what helped me to understand and what helped me to determine when I chose to forgive, it wasn't a lecture to you and it didn't mention my religious views either. So I wonder why the slap on the hands?
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She is saying that the MLCer would need to know this. I personally do not think that is something anybody can 100% positively guarantee. I have stated my reasons, it has nothing to do with not understanding what forgiveness is... or how to do so.
I am being honest with you here. I am not a religious person, that being said, I have my beliefs. I thought forgiveness and love was something I could do VERY EASILY... much to my surprise, I found it was not simply a case of MIND over matter... or religious beliefs.
It's not easy to forgive somebody who has no desire to admit to wrongdoing. Or admit to how much hurt, grief and pain they have caused. Now, if you people can do it... unconditionally... well then great! Lucky you!
Much to my surprise and chagrin I might add, I found that there is forgiveness and then there is FORGIVENESS... so please, no more lectures.
Hugs Stayed
Forgiveness is hard...and also unpredictiable...I always said that if H ever cheated on me I would hunt him down and then her...lol..I knew (I thought) that I just couldn't forgive that...H did admit to his affair to me straightout and I was mad...I screamed and melted and well, it was bad..but as soon as I stopped and did some praying and thinking I realized I forgave him...not sure how I did that and how I felt so at peace with my forgivness but I did....Not at all what I thought I would feel...so I think everyone is different...:)
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oops...I am really not getting how to do the quote thing..lol..not sure why..lol
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Sorry--I wasn't trying to lecture but just express my point of view and how I cope. Just as you are explaining yours. Different things work for different people.
Just to clarify and not to lecture--in my definition forgiveness is no guarantee of future results as they say. It just opens the door. A person can both forgive and decide it isn't going to work with the other person at the same time, even. It also doesn't make one person superior over another. It just has made some feel better about their own lives and more able to cope so they share that.
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oops...I am really not getting how to do the quote thing..lol..not sure why..lol
That is so cute though and a needed breath of fresh air :)
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oops...I am really not getting how to do the quote thing..lol..not sure why..lol
That is so cute though and a needed breath of fresh air :)
I fixed your quote - all that was wrong was you had an extra / in your first quote.
Read this it might help.
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=2252.0
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To me it isn't about forgiving the infidelity. I think that the issue is forgiving all that the MLCers says and does to us that is the hardest to forgive...why? because of exactly this:
It's not easy to forgive somebody who has no desire to admit to wrongdoing. Or admit to how much hurt, grief and pain they have caused.
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To me it isn't about forgiving the infidelity. I think that the issue is forgiving all that the MLCers says and does to us that is the hardest to forgive...why? because of exactly this: It's not easy to forgive somebody who has no desire to admit to wrongdoing. Or admit to how much hurt, grief and pain they have caused.
That is true, as I think about this I can forgive because that is for me. I worry if I can ever trust again. I definitely don't trust anything my H says or does. I know I will struggle mightily with that one but at least it is moot right now since we aren't reconnecting and I am relieved in a way because I am not ready to deal on that level. I think that makes it easier to have a mostly vanished H. We talk but I don't have to see him.
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I worry if I can ever trust again. I definitely don't trust anything my H says or does
I have this issue in my mind too. But I just pray that if God brings us back together, then He will prepare our hearts for the reconcilliation. I won't worry (or try not to) about it until then....where God guides, God provides.
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I worry if I can ever trust again. I definitely don't trust anything my H says or does
I have this issue in my mind too. But I just pray that if God brings us back together, then He will prepare our hearts for the reconcilliation. I won't worry (or try not to) about it until then....where God guides, God provides.
That is a wonderful way to look at it, thanks.
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SO maybe deep down we can all imagine the forgiving part...but it is the trusting part that is an issue. And if we cannot trust....could we really ever have a marriage...or rather...a happy marriage again?
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SO maybe deep down we can all imagine the forgiving part...but it is the trusting part that is an issue. And if we cannot trust....could we really ever have a marriage...or rather...a happy marriage again?
I think eventually we can but that one is dependent upon them. If they aren't willing to recognize they need to earn it back and at some point we have to decide if we can. I think that is why it is our decision in the end.
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Funny, my H mentioned that he had no trust in me, my father, ANYONE for that matter! When my dad and I tried to explain that one has to earn things back (like trust) he looked at us like we had three heads....
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Funny, my H mentioned that he had no trust in me, my father, ANYONE for that matter! When my dad and I tried to explain that one has to earn things back (like trust) he looked at us like we had three heads....
I just recently was told he trusts me completely. He doesn't trust himself and he knows he has impulse control issues among other things. He did tell me how incredible I am and he isn't going to ever find a better person. It doesn't change what he is doing but the words are nice to hear especially when a year ago it was nothing but silence or all about him. I am grateful for his tenderness and his trust, he knows he hasn't earned mine back and doesn't ask me for it when it concerns me and him. His current issues well let's just say that he asks me to trust him and I am trusting he is putting himself in jail.
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I wonder if the "forgiveness" thing is different when you actually are back living with them? Forgiving somebody that you are never going to have to REALLY rely on again, is actually not that difficult. You can put it all down to poor judgement, a mental issue, bad childhood... POOR HIM/HER! Easy to feel sorry for them and forgive them because you don't have to live with it ANYMORE.
I think that may be where we are getting our wires crossed. I'm not sure you can quite understand the depth of the forgiveness required, ONCE you are trying to reconcile, then another whole bag of tricks once you are actually reconciled. All the demons come out and haunt the hell out of you. In spite of how wonderful they are being, it is hard not wonder, CAN IT LAST? That's the part that is hard to forgive them for, not being able to really BELIEVE in them... or trust your own intuition about them.
It makes me angry sometimes, that I have these thoughts. I'm sorry for the comment about lecturing, I was frustrated because I couldn't find the right words to explain what I was trying to say and all the responses were coming in fast and furious and I was thinking, THEY REALLY DON'T KNOW, how can they, they are not here yet! Then I felt terrible for being so snarly.
Truth is my friends, we are not all talking about the same forgiveness. Someone mentioned a whole book about forgiveness, I believe that. This is forgiveness for hurting our family, me, himself... risking our lives. Heck in a sense, even my life, when he had unprotected sex with that WOMAN. Yes JoJo, you are right, forgiveness is for ourselves, I totally agree, but there are many, many layers and just as you THINK you have forgiven this or that, there is something else and something else. There were things I have had to work through that I didn't even know I was angry about, that I had to let go of and try to forgive.
This is the gift that just keeps on giving. Just when you think you have her beat, something else smashes you upside the head. It's worth it, it really is, but you have to be prepared for it. Be aware of what is ahead, as then it is not such a shock when you fall prey to it. That's all I was trying to say.
Sorry! Me bad!
Hugs Stayed
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Stayed, I have wondered about if Screwtape were to come home, how I would REALLY handle his betrayal, all the pain, venom, etc... Sure, as I begged and pled for him to come back, I envisioned it all peaches and cream, we would fall in love so deeply, I would be 'perfect', everything would be wonderful... Sigh... But no, really, how long would that last before thoughts of all that CRAP rose to the surface and consumed me??? So I totally get what you said... Totally.
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I wonder if the "forgiveness" thing is different when you actually are back living with them? Forgiving somebody that you are never going to have to REALLY rely on again, is actually not that difficult. You can put it all down to poor judgement, a mental issue, bad childhood... POOR HIM/HER! Easy to feel sorry for them and forgive them because you don't have to live with it ANYMORE.
Would say so, the forgiveness is different is we have them living back with us or if that will never happen again. However, we don't know if are going to live with them again, so I think we should forgive. Even if the "easy" forgive. But the "easy" forgive is not that easy. If it was there wouldn't be so many angry, revengeful people on the planet.
And we may not have to live with them anymore but many of us have to live with the daily consequences of their actions. Forgiving ends up not being that easy.
I think that may be where we are getting our wires crossed. I'm not sure you can quite understand the depth of the forgiveness required, ONCE you are trying to reconcile, then another whole bag of tricks once you are actually reconciled. All the demons come out and haunt the hell out of you. In spite of how wonderful they are being, it is hard not wonder, CAN IT LAST? That's the part that is hard to forgive them for, not being able to really BELIEVE in them... or trust your own intuition about them.
Of course it can last. It has last for you (and others), hasn't it? But our intuition was right, most of us knew they were up to something, including, for several of us, suspect that there was someone else. We can believe and trust them once the crisis is really over (if not, what is the point of having them back?...). Until then, don't think so.
We could trust and believe them until the crisis come along, couldn't we?
I'm pretty certain if we have them back there will be a lot of issues, and anger, to be worked through. It will be up to each of us to decide it we want, or don't want to go through it. A thing we may only be able to know once we we have them back.
But lets not forget that it will be us who get to decide if we want, or don't want, them back.
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But lets not forget that it will be us who get to decide if we want, or don't want, them back.
This is what I'm using standing for. I don't want to be so desperate to have him back that if he comes back all of a sudden I realize that I really DON"T want him back...... better to know what I want in advance as opposed to after the fact.........
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I agree with you 100% stayed. I think that it is easier to forgive a stranger or a person that we will never have to live with. Maybe that is why we think forgiveness is not that hard. Right now, I have "forgiven" my H for his infidelity. It is a superficial forgiveness, a detached forgiveness. Looking at my situation, I don't think I would ever become husband and wife with him again...coparents/friendly, yes....love partners....no. Forgiving some of the behaviors towards me and the kids is simply not a matter of pride, but a matter of safety.
So I tip my hat to you and as the days pass I am more and more in awe of those of you that have reconciled. I know that even though I am a forgiving person...maybe I am not that forgiving as I thought.
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But lets not forget that it will be us who get to decide if we want, or don't want, them back.
This is what I'm using standing for. I don't want to be so desperate to have him back that if he comes back all of a sudden I realize that I really DON"T want him back...... better to know what I want in advance as opposed to after the fact.........
I agree that is one very good thing about standing is that we are blessed with the time to know what we will want. I know with my last visit and the contact I have I keep telling my H one day at a time. Honestly I am too focused on what I need in my life and my goals to deal much with him and his issues right now.
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Maybe that is why we think forgiveness is not that hard.
I think anyone who thinks forgiveness is easy is fooling themselves. I do think it is a process and it occurs with each stage of the journey but it isn't impossible and it can be lasting. It is a choice and a continual process as we live this life and are in different stages. I do think anger and the way we harbor it or release it affects forgiveness. I see my MiL who is a very angry person and negative, forgiveness is not in her vocabulary. For each person the act, thought or idea of forgiveness means different things and is also a different process for that individual. I don't think anyone can know how they will handle forgiveness when faced with different situations, on the same note another person cannot predict how someone will react, forgive or be during their own reconnection.
I know in my case with H at different times during our journey I have been faced with new feelings I was unaware of, including anger that reared up. I dealt with that situation as it occurred do I think that will be the last of it? No, but I do know for me and what i believe forgiveness is for me and is not giving my H a free pass or about condoning his behavior. It may be different for others and that is okay too, each person is different and at different levels of this process and each person will choose forgiveness following their own path. It doesn't make anyone more right or more wrong and it certainly doesn't mean we know how everyone will act during each stage of the process, it is unpredictable and is a different process for each person because we are different.
I respect everyone's own experience here and use it to learn and grow. But just because it happened in a certain way for one person doesn't mean it will be that way for another and it doesn't negate how we deal with these issues as they crop up. For myself my focus is different and it is individual for me and the one great thing about this entire process is that I am an individual with my own values. I know I will march to the drum that is my path delusional or not, but with a smile about my choices because they are mine and this journey is my journey for me.
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Thanks for resurfacing this OP....never hurts to read and re-read. I believe I will be in it for the long haul.
SG
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Thanks for resurfacing this OP....never hurts to read and re-read. I believe I will be in it for the long haul.
SG
Reflecting on this, yep -long haul it is! :)
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Why Stand?
I loved my husband with all my heart. We had been together since I was sixteen and have been through all kinds of stuff, including having a child at that age.
Well, I have always known I was not like everyone else. I have even told people I am not normal.I do not listen to others. I follow my intuition. There was just something out there telling me not to give up.
I have a whole different situation. My husband and I divorced for financial reasons pre bomb drop. So I was divorced on paper when he left. I did not feel divorced then or after he left.
My younger sister had just finished a long marriage with her husband. He was like a brother. He cheated and did all kinds of stuff. She had enough,and is very bitter still. She went out to bars trying to find someone. I could feel her and her friends loneliness, when I went out with them a few times after my bd. I knew right then, I was not meant to be away from my husband/ex.
No matter what I did or where I went, I felt not right. I found this place and it opened my eyes. Most people just divorce and say move on. I didn't feel like that. It wouldn't happen. No matter what some said I couldn't let him out of my life.
I knew he wasn't right the day he walked out. Then the day I saw he bought a camper to live in, in his workshop! No running water and no bathroom! Dark and alone.
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I stand (for the time being, at least) because right after bd h told me he would come back to me a better person when this was all over.
If he pushes through a divorce, I don't think I could justify standing, as sad as that would be.
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We had a similar thread of this name when the forum opened in May 2010, aclled "Benefits and detriments to standing" For anyone who's interested, it's here:
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=159.0 (http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=159.0)
It's interesting that there are different types of answer now. Back in 2010 it was all so confusing. We had threads like "Does anyone get back together?". Now we have "Return Stories" to give us hope. Perhaps that hope gives expectations. There's no real reason, empirically, to believe in the time scales for MLC. MLC is not a disease, but as RCR so wisely puts it, it's a dis-ease (lack of ease), and a time of inner turmoil. That is how my H sees it now... a time when he was no longer sure of his previous certainties. There are no guarentees about how things are going to turn out. Our spouse may come to feel certain that they do not want to be married to us. It doesn't mean they are in a tunnel.
Personally, I believe my answers will be different now in hindsight than back in Jan 2009 when H first proclaimed he no longer loved me. In May 2010 I said
. I am standing because I love my H, I believe that we can still have a future together, and I believe he needs my support
In hindsight, I can say that H definately did need my support. As a CB he both needed me and rejected me. But being needed is not reason enough to stand.
The truth is that I was a clinger. Many of us cling to who and what we know. (It's the cause of a lot of pain, and one of the 4 noble truths of Buddhism, a philosophy of life that I consider very wise).
In my case, the truth was that I didn't want a life without H. I had given up literally everything to be with him; job, home, culture, language, country... I gained a lot too, but without him I didn't know who I was or what my life was about. I know I am not the only one, but I didn't have my family around to return to.
And then, when I was at my deepest point of despair (those moments when we want the earth to open and swallow us whole, with all our pain and anger with us), I suddenly felt a voice within saying "he still loves you really".
I am not religious, but it felt almost divine. What was it really? Wishful thinking? Intuition?
It kept me going.
However, it was only when I began to let go, to see I could exist without H (even though it seemed like a desolate future) that the tables really turned. He really didn't want to lose me (he's a CB!)
So why did I stand? It was a dream, a belief, a hope that was deep in my sense of self. I wasn't separate from my marriage, and my H; it was part of me. I asked myself why I needed it so much, and why it was so hard to let go. The answer only came when I finally did begin to let go.
Yet, as H was a CB, my letting go was not so radical an experience as some LBS here experience. Those married to vanishers are forced to let go, suffer far more, but probably change more than I did too.
My H is not perfect (neither am I). Am I stronger? Yes, I think so. Is my marriage stronger? Things are not perfect, but they are different. I am glad he is back and so, he says, is he.
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Mermaid -
That was an incredibly powerful thing for me to read. Thank you for taking the time to write it.
I especially identified with the fact that you didn't have a family to return to....For years my H and I have said that we were creating our own family, and we were so proud of that. Life right now feels very lonely.
I also marveled at the description of wanting the earth to open and swallow us whole. I can't tell you how often I have the image of just lying on the ground and wanting to just melt into the earth and disappear. It's so odd how that's my fantasy...I suppose it's my own running away thing.
I, too, have a clinging boomerang. He hasn't left - yet...He has talked about getting his own apartment once or twice, but he hasn't done it. He travels so much for work (every other week) he doesn't really have to. His work allows him to boomerang home and then back to OW. Phew.
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Dear MoonlightingPortia,
I hope my path gives you insight, and hope, at least for yourself to be whole. That's the real challenge, especially if you have made your H your world, like I did.
I suppose you have a while to go yet... my H had an EA, not a PA, and never admitted it, but she was his escape!!! Boundaries and compassion are both important.
Take care.
Mermaid xxxx
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The truth is that I was a clinger. Many of us cling to who and what we know. (It's the cause of a lot of pain, and one of the 4 noble truths of Buddhism, a philosophy of life that I consider very wise).
In my case, the truth was that I didn't want a life without H. I had given up literally everything to be with him; job, home, culture, language, country... I gained a lot too, but without him I didn't know who I was or what my life was about. I know I am not the only one, but I didn't have my family around to return to.
And then, when I was at my deepest point of despair (those moments when we want the earth to open and swallow us whole, with all our pain and anger with us), I suddenly felt a voice within saying "he still loves you really".
I am not religious, but it felt almost divine. What was it really? Wishful thinking? Intuition?
It kept me going.
Mermaid, I can so relate to your post. I was always so independent, probably one of the things that attracted my h to me in the first place. But now I'm a clinger, as you put it. His children and family have become my family and now I am so lost without them. I too have heard that voice in my darkest moments telling me it will be okay and he will come back.
Thank you for sharing your story.
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I too had become a clinger....I gave up my career, home, language, culture and country.
Before I found this forum and the ideology of standing.... I had decided at BD I would not divorce him.
Before I moved to Germany I was very independent, never relied on a partner for support, etc. I have changed in the last 17 years....
Since BD...I have finally gotten mentally stronger, seeing glimpses of the old me. Wish H was still around to see it, it was what attracted him to me in the first place...the strength, the independence... I had made him my world, suffered after BD because of it.
I understand a lot of what transpired to get H to the place he is at now. I understand the motives of OW (was friends with her several years, know her history)
I know in my heart, inside the alien which has taken H over, he still loves me.
I will not give up. So happy to have found this forum.
SG