Midlife Crisis: Support for Left Behind Spouses
Midlife Crisis => Our Community => Topic started by: marvin4242 on March 04, 2023, 04:09:46 AM
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Well as its time to a new thread I wanted a title that better reflected where I am now. This is a twist on the old saying. The twist is that its not about blame, but about what I thought I had for all those years. Was most of it created and held up by me, did I see more in my relationship than was really there? Where I am now is that the answer doesn't matter, because everything we do is ultimately only as how we perceive it to be. The search for a "truth" is a bit silly really. I know that I am not fully aware of what is going on inside of me, I know for sure my wife didn't fully realize everything that was happening. So how can I search for a "truth" when these two things met in the middle?
Yeah a bit conceptual, but also true for me. All that mattered in the end was my experience of it all. The power was in what I felt I had, even if maybe it wasn't fully shared by my wife.
As for her a quick update: she has had her procedure for cancer, it seems to have gone well and she has handled it all better than I would have expected (but as I had hoped). Nothing really changed, there was no "awakening" or sudden "revelations." She still contacts me when she needs whatever it is she gets from me, and spends most of her time with the OM to get what she needs from him. We are all actors in her play. And she is still decorating and doing things to the house "we share" according to her, which is fine. That place is just a house now, it hasn't been home for a while. But it was for many years and for me it was the first "home" I had known. For that I will always be grateful as she was a big part of that.
A song that always comes to mind for me when I think of that: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DZHs-SRJbzU
And the link to the previous thread: https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=11801.0
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. We are all actors in her play.
It’s funny, I said something similar a while back on the vanishers thread about an old friend of mine who seems like she’s having an MLC. These folks seem to just view other people as part of a narrative in which they are the main character and everyone else is there to play a role. I think such a non-reciprocal approach to others must be an ultimately very lonely existence.
Great song. “Home” is something I think about a lot.
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Attaching -
The whole "Everyone else is a bit player in my narrative" thing is so true about MLC'ers and Narcissists....
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Hey Marvin :D
What is it with MLC'ers and cancer? Have you noticed that too? Someone MLC's-Out and then within a year or two *BAM* massive heath issue (often cancer).... or maybe it just seems like it happens a lot.
Glad she is doing well, and more glad that you are doing well. :)
-SS
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What is it with MLC'ers and cancer? Have you noticed that too? Someone MLC's-Out and then within a year or two *BAM* massive heath issue (often cancer).... or maybe it just seems like it happens a lot.
Interesting observation. It doesn’t seem that prevalent to me - I can’t name a single other instance that I have read of a person having an MLC and then shortly after being diagnosed with cancer. Breast cancer in middle age women, on the other hand, is all too prevalent.
There’s lots of research showing that allostatic load (the cumulative effects of long-term stress) is higher in those with childhood trauma. And anecdotally among LBS (because MLC has no clear definition and isn’t studied) those with childhood/complex trauma *seem much more likely to have MLC. But I don’t think there’s any firm scientific evidence existing for complex trauma as a *cause* of cancer, though there is some evidence that complex trauma and higher allostatic load leads to poorer outcomes in those with cancer. 🤷♀️
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Actually, my thought was the opposite....quite a lot of stories here of MLCers imploding when LBS or family members are seriously sick....from what I can see the health effects for MLCers seem to be more about the consequences of particular lifestyle choices and time.
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SS, as other have pointed out stress for anyone is a terrible health hazard. It seems from all the stories we read the stress that is put on the LBS as their entire life is blown up, both emotionally, financially and in every day life is incredibly high. And sadly as others pointed out it seems to impact them very negatively in health (as we see over and over). MLCers are under a lot of stress, but they also seem to disassociate a lot, so they may not be aware of it. It probably does impact their health negatively, but so do their life choices (again see all the stories of sudden "aging" and general demeanor). Difference is the LBS didn't make the choices that led to their stress.
I wanted to post an amusing "update." A couple of days ago I had a conversation with my "wife" where she wanted to know whether her OM could attend a private event I am hosting for fun with a group of friends. I indirectly waived the request off as the event has already been arranged and there is no more room. A couple of hours later I got a text asking whether I had an issue hanging out with the "OM" and whether I wanted to go to a trip with her and OM. I simply responded that it wasn't an option as the OM is not a friend and is not someone I know and hang out with.
Yup this is just another example of the non-reality of the MLCers "reality."
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I wanted to post an amusing "update." A couple of days ago I had a conversation with my "wife" where she wanted to know whether her OM could attend a private event I am hosting for fun with a group of friends. I indirectly waived the request off as the event has already been arranged and there is no more room. A couple of hours later I got a text asking whether I had an issue hanging out with the "OM" and whether I wanted to go to a trip with her and OM. I simply responded that it wasn't an option as the OM is not a friend and is not someone I know and hang out with.
That's completely bonkers!!!! I really can't understand their way of thinking... I mean, seriously? :o
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Bonkers is the exact word that came to mind for me also, One Day.
I'd love to get in the head of some of these people. As the LBS of a vanisher, I'm endlessly fascinated by how attached some MLCers continue to be to their pre-MLC lives, as opposed to vanishers who seek to erase it all.
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I wanted to post an amusing "update." A couple of days ago I had a conversation with my "wife" where she wanted to know whether her OM could attend a private event I am hosting for fun with a group of friends. I indirectly waived the request off as the event has already been arranged and there is no more room. A couple of hours later I got a text asking whether I had an issue hanging out with the "OM" and whether I wanted to go to a trip with her and OM. I simply responded that it wasn't an option as the OM is not a friend and is not someone I know and hang out with.
Yup this is just another example of the non-reality of the MLCers "reality."
(https://media.giphy.com/media/3RhOMfY3bYTKk7O6gY/giphy-downsized-large.gif)
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UM yup that exact GIF but with slightly more "colorful" word selection is right.
I responded on another thread with some thoughts on NC, limited contact, reality check, etc. Not wanting to hijack another thread I wanted to share the latest "contact" with my MLCer. As I have mentioned occasionally it took me about 1.5 years to fully let go of any concept of my wife as she was (or as I imagined she was) for 20+ years. And for a while after that I chose to have no contact with her for a few months to fully cement my new reality. Before then I would still be rather detached, being well aware of what state she was in. I always had my guard up, detached, minimal or no expectation and would lean forward only as much as she did. This would range from vanishing completely to interacting as if nothing was going on (like we used to be for decades). And even with all my care I took more cuts and bruises than I realized or wanted to acknowledge at the time. I had a pretty good understanding of what was going on, over the years I had developed a lot of skills about boundaries, self reflection, empathy etc. But still it was not great.
Since then I have had contact with her on and off, again only as far as she initiates. Right now (past 1+ years) she has been acting like things are normal, contact almost every single day, random articles, questions about what I would like/prefer about what she is doing at the house (the same one she left and swore would never come back to, now she is back to planting, redecorating, etc etc). I always respond politely and as I would with a work colleague, not even a friend really. Because she has no capacity to be a friend to anyone, including herself. And I accept this truth.
This week I was off on a trip with my GF. We have been together for over four years. My wife constantly refers to her, asks questions, and I never reply or engage. So through a sequence of texts my wife figured out i am on a trip to an area of lakes with mountains. That I was doing a small outdoor adventure, walking around scenery and climbing some small hills for views etc. And her reaction was to immediately cut me down, make comments that were designed to put me down and make herself seem much better than me, and she concluded with an off hand text that said "It seems (GFs name) is good for you."
It actually pissed me off a little. Even with all this distance thrown barbs can still sting a little. The implication was that I would never do anything for myself, that she was somehow the reason I even did anything, that obviously I was somehow encroaching in her head to the domain that she and OM are the masters off (outdoor activities). And that I would be nothing without someone else guiding me. And you have to understand all of this is so polar opposite of reality of my life for so long that I was truly confused for a few minutes. It was so insane that it had me questioning whether I am deluding myself.
So why am I saying all this? To share with others that contact with someone who is disordered has really no positive function. I think a lot of us initially need to hold on to the idea that we can somehow fix things, recover things, or at least keep some version of that very important person in our lives. To me it's like a death without a body, our mind and emotions simply refuse to accept what has really happened. But as story after story after story repeats the longer we refuse to accept what is going on the more harm we do to ourselves.
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Ah, the power of gaslighting and projection.....even years on, right? ::)
Sometimes I think interacting with disordered folks is not unlike when Gracie the cat nonchalantly jumps on the dining table when i’m eating.....she ignores both pleas and shouts to get down (usually) while pointedly looking in any direction other than my plate or acting as if she is completely involved in licking a paw or looking out of the window. But I know eventually she will try to edge in on it. She knows I know. And every time I remove her from the table, she always is outraged as if it is the very first time this has happened and I am being completely unreasonable :) Cats and MLCers turn out to be a lot more predictable often than they might wish......
As my gran used to say, none so blind as those that do not want to see.... :)
I hope your MLCer did not spoil your day, or adventurous outdoor adventures, for more than a moment or two. From a distance, it’s remarkable (and bizarre) how many MLCers seem to feel entitled to play any role in our lives or expect us to continue to play any role in ours,to feel that their opinion about anything at all post BD should carry any weight at all. Yet it seems quite often to be so even years later. Hard to see how skewed that is when we still have a We in our heads which usually seems to last for a few years......on the one hand, that can make it hard for we LBS to move further away from things that serve no good purpose for us, but on the other hand it’s a rather remarkable testimony to the strength of the original love and attachment we had for them even if they seemed to devalue that so easily. What a thing to discard as if it were nothing! But it’s also interesting to see how our own perspective evolves over time, isn’t it?
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Thanks Treasur, no she did not. It was a nice reminder of "reality." And great point about how some of them pretend we are dead but then they won't leave! Not sure which is better. And ah yes the cat theory of MLC, that is perfect!
Unrelated but had to share: we lost a great under-appreciated bass player today. Some of you may have heard some of his work, but in his honor I wanted to leave this here....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FD_CtQSTPn0
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Hey Marvin. I agree with treasur. It sounds like a lot of projection.
I think for the women MLCers (not all, but some) they learned to avoid and deal with their issues by internalizing everything to the point that they're convinced that they're the only ones who care about the house and family and if it wasn't for them, everything would fall apart.
Of course none of that is true and when your ex realized it, sounds like she blamed it on your girlfriend's influence.
I'm sure my ex was convinced I was simply holding out on her, to make her do everything, as she was so fond of yelling all the time.
It's very important for them to maintain their version of events in their head, that lets them still escape and avoid, not only their own issues, but also now probably the shame and guilt of destroying a marriage, leaving kids behind etc.
I think MLCers are big internalizers and that can and will take a toll on your body, as you all were nothing.
I wouldn't take her behavior personally. Easier said than done sometimes I know. I would just take it as a sign that she's still deep within the fog of her own issues and that's just how she's choosing to deal with them, no matter how unfair it is.
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Unrelated but had to share: we lost a great under-appreciated bass player today. Some of you may have heard some of his work, but in his honor I wanted to leave this here....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FD_CtQSTPn0
RIP Andy.
Coincidentally, this song had been stuck in my head for the past two weeks nonstop. Maybe I had a premonition:
https://youtu.be/w3qPMe_cCJk
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Marvin,
Thanks for this update. I've been thinking about this a lot, not specifically in the setting of dealing with an MLCer (though certainly it applies there) - but yes, dealing with disordered people has the potential for great harm to our well-being, with very little (probably no) potential for benefit. I made that mistake with A - I felt like I needed to understand how she'd been impacted by W's crisis, and I also felt like she could somehow understand my experience. And maybe there was some momentary benefit/closure to be gained from having a conversation. But to turn it into the foundation for a friendship... that was never going to be a good idea. It played into my "fixer" tendency, and it put me on the receiving end of her manipulation and guilt tactics.
The point is - there are a lot of things that you have done that can serve as a lesson to many of us. We don't all approach this the same way, but the idea of "cementing" the new reality is incredibly wise and healing. Sometimes that requires no contact, some people are able to get there even with an in-house MLCer.
@Treasur, I love the cat analogy - it is absolutely spot on. And gman, your point about the MLCer's tendencies toward internalizing and avoidance is also an excellent one.
Marvin, thank you for continuing to share your insights.
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Wow Marvin.
First that she contacts you so often for advice and sharing and then to belittle you when she feels she has lost some control ( IMO) It brought to mind that quote that goes, “don’t take advice from someone who’s life you wouldn’t live,” or something like that. She screams of a person who somewhere realizes she let go of someone who cared so much about making sure she knew how loved she was and doesn’t want to lose that. You “set the example” of how to love for someone who still can’t figure out how to return it or appreciate it, but seems somewhere in her depths of her sole she recognizes it ( again, just my opinion)
Glad to hear your new relationship is bringing you the love and care you deserve.
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She screams of a person who somewhere realizes she let go of someone who cared so much about making sure she knew how loved she was and doesn’t want to lose that. You “set the example” of how to love for someone who still can’t figure out how to return it or appreciate it, but seems somewhere in her depths of her sole she recognizes it ( again, just my opinion)
Thanks MadLuv but in my opinion we (and I know I have done it too) ascribe too many motivations or ideas to our MLCers behaviour that simply are a projection of our needs. I think we need to do that partly to make things ok or try to make sense or maybe even preserve hope. But I fear they are so broken and disordered there is not such thing at play, it is whatever is bubbling up at the moment is all there is.
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In my opinion we (and I know I have done it too) ascribe too many motivations or ideas to our MLCers behaviour that simply are a projection of our needs. I think we need to do that partly to make things ok or try to make sense or maybe even preserve hope. But I fear they are so broken and disordered there is not such thing at play, it is whatever is bubbling up at the moment is all there is.
100% AGREE!
We do not know any of the reasons for why they do what they do. As the many stories here tell, their actions are bizarre and most likely mean something totally different to what we give meaning to. Or, may have absolutely no meaning at all.
Perhaps one of the benefits to having occasional interactions with them is that it reaffirms that they are not the person we knew and loved. The word "alien" comes to mind but I actually like Ursa's description "it's like trying to taste the color green."
We all attempt to figure them out at some point. Fortunately I stopped doing that a long time ago. I think that might be a big part of "letting go" or "detachment "which we seek.
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I have a question Marvin. Was wondering why do you have so much interaction with her? Since you are in a new relationship.
On the seeing things and hope. Maybe. I can see that. I personally have hope that my XH will figure something out and reengage with his kids. We do see reconnections. I’m sure not wishing on a star , however! Haha
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She screams of a person who somewhere realizes she let go of someone who cared so much about making sure she knew how loved she was and doesn’t want to lose that. You “set the example” of how to love for someone who still can’t figure out how to return it or appreciate it, but seems somewhere in her depths of her sole she recognizes it ( again, just my opinion)
Thanks MadLuv but in my opinion we (and I know I have done it too) ascribe too many motivations or ideas to our MLCers behaviour that simply are a projection of our needs. I think we need to do that partly to make things ok or try to make sense or maybe even preserve hope. But I fear they are so broken and disordered there is not such thing at play, it is whatever is bubbling up at the moment is all there is.
As time and work has restored my own normal personal ‘factory settings’, I must admit I agree with this.
I did it. We all do. For a variety of reasons….a trauma response, a bit of denial, our own version of avoidance even, trying to make sense of things we don’t understand in the hope that if we understand something we can fix it, working out with time how to navigate and adapt to new realities.
I think one of my biggest learning points was that even if I think I understand the cause of something it changes much less than I used to think it did.
I also think - with hindsight - that there is a tricky balance to be found in the genuine almost life saving - certainly sanity saving value - of a forum like this where people ‘get it’ and care about you with the risk of digging in to a kind of cognitive bias where one sees everything through an MLC lens. Again jmo, but I think an LBS lens might be more useful….we know more about it after all. The behaviour of our ex/spouse and details of our situations may vary but the common ground of what it feels like to be an LBS and what we have learned together about the most helpful, or least damaging maybe, ways to deal with that is imo something we can more usefully share.
Nowadays, I think I see it more simply in a way. Even if I recognise that I wouldn’t have wanted to hear that simplicity as a newbie or perhaps been able to do too much with it for a while. For whatever causal label one assigns, without even labelling it with other value terms like good, bad, bonkers, broken, disordered etc, these folks we used to love and trust are no longer able or willing to have a reciprocal respectful relationship with us. Whether it is about can’t or won’t doesn’t change actions and effects. They cease to be trustworthy and they prioritise their needs and wants to the point of excluding others almost entirely. They leave bc they choose to leave. They look like someone who no longer values what they used to value bc they no longer value those things. Or us. Imho it’s hard enough for us to get that practical reality without trying to get how or why they do. Or how they square all their own mental circles about it.
Again jmo, but with hindsight, I think the real challenge for most LBS is accepting that at BD there is no We left. And then figuring out what you need to do, usually in baby steps, to protect yourself and your own life from the most damaging aspects of what is happening. And being as kind to yourself as you can be that this is not a very normal life experience and that it isn’t about who you are or anything you did or anything you could do in future.
That’s not an easy pill to swallow, is it? And it takes a bit of time to see that sometimes life events happen to you or around you but not because of you.
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I have a question Marvin. Was wondering why do you have so much interaction with her? Since you are in a new relationship.
On the seeing things and hope. Maybe. I can see that. I personally have hope that my XH will figure something out and reengage with his kids. We do see reconnections. I’m sure not wishing on a star , however! Haha
MadLuv we do not have any kids so I am in a very different situation with those of you who have had kids that have collateral damage and would like to have a relationship with their other parent. I can't even imagine how to navigate that minefield.
I have stated before because we do not share a life, I really have detached from her for a long while now my approach has been to mirror exactly her communication. When she disappears that is what happens, when she engages in light banter I simple respond like I would a co-worker. Most of her interaction have to solely with her, her needs and she contacts me to "get" something, whether it's an actual thing or as an anchor check.Since her breakdown she seems incapable of showing any empathy or even registering anyone else as a person outsider of herself, except of course the OM who has become her "soul mate."
At this point in my life none of it makes any difference. At most she is a rare annoyance to me. And considering our lives are separate and there are no kids there is no urgency to finalize a legal divorce. And truth is even if she wanted one I have no idea how he could even go through the most basic steps to execute one.
Finally this is a person I have know for a long while. For everything that has happened I wish her no ill will, and in fact I hope one day she finds her way to peace and happiness. She seems to get some sense of security from being at the house and by having some contact with me. Considering I read nothing into it and if it helps her in any way why not? At this point if she wanted to have the house just to herself that would work for me as I have moved on.
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Thanks for spelling out the circumstances of your situation, Marvin. It’s a good reminder that what is do-able for different LBS over the longer term is a function of more than just our emotions or their behaviour but also things like kids, money and other resources. As you say, if it doesn’t cost you much emotionally or practically, then it’s easier perhaps to let things be as they are. I’ve always had a sneaking suspicion that there is such a thing as sustainable standing dependent on some rather practical issues which vary from one situation to another. Not at all a one size fits all, right?
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Treasur absolutely. I do not for ONE SECOND believe that my situation in any way compares to the horror stories I have read and heard. The emotional, financial, health and sometimes physical damage I have heard over and over from other LBSes truly horrify me and I have to say my situation, as bad as it was, in no way compares. And all this before any children are involved.
I also had the fortune (or misfortune) of having had some previous significant emotional challenges in my upbringing and in my life. This meant that before all this I had engaged in therapy and had to learn a lot of skill and understanding. These tools in a lot of way helped shield me from some damage. I have shared before that it took me around 2-3 months to discover things were really not normal with my wife. That didn't mean that I could just move on, but the understanding and coping tools I had did help me somewhat. And I re-engaged in therapy 3 months after first BD. I do realize this is not an option for most. But that along with some limited trauma therapy work really helped me enter a new phase in my life. I didn't choose this path, but once I was thrown over the cliff metaphorically there was no point trying to deny it or to try to claw my way back to the person who pushed me over in the first place!
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Thank you Marvin. I was curious. I also think I would do the same. As my therapist says. He isn’t giving much is he? So, I don’t give much either. We do have children and so I think I have to have hope for them,so I stand for friendship. However, that for me can only happen when I can believe in his words. So, that was my reason for my question. I do have boundries now and if he belittled me I would not engage in any conversation. That was my main reason for the question. Even if unaffected I would not tolerate that. I don’t engage in anything disrespectful, but I no longer react. I am kind and wish him a good day and then don’t engage again until I have to for business.
I don’t consider myself a newbie anymore or delusional on who he is or where he is. I dont know now if he is capable of have a deep connection with anyone. I do have to read his actions and words to know what to mirror in my response. That is when I decide now if I communicate or not. I’m sure there will come a time like you when I can listen to the nonsense and not care. Right now it causes some discomfort for me to hear a broken man. Not for me, but for him. I think that is due to needing him to be a father and knowing that may never happen. With that they lose a sister and a father. One not preventable and one seemingly preventable, but maybe not.
This was a good conversation to have and I appreciate yours and Treasurs response to it.
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Pre-coffee, hope I make sense. Last night I watched the series finale of Deep Space 9, which in my opinion is one of the better character driven Star Trek series. There was a love story between two characters, Kira and Odo, and in the finale, Odo decided he had to go back to his homeland to save his people, leaving Kira behind.
She accepted and let him go in such an immediate and graceful way and my immediate thought was that when someone we love goes away from us, it’s a change and it’s hard and it hurts. But for me at least, it’s different and not devastating, because they would still be someone out there who loves me even if they’re not right beside me. That is so different than someone who chooses to leave and tell me on the way out the door that I was less than or that in fact, they wouldn’t even be affected if I was dead, or (insert damaging leaving MLCer spew here).
All of us loved our spouses for many years. When they leave, they do so in damaging and cruel ways, and for most it’s so different from what the way they were throughout the relationship. Even when we detach and move on, we still remember that they were a big part of our lives. As others have said, everyone’s circumstances are different, but to me, just as there is something beautiful about loving someone, there’s something equally as beautiful in the act of letting them go, remembering the parts that were beautiful, remembering the friend that they were to us, the friend we were to them. (This of course doesn’t make sense in all cases. For a time, many struggle with thoughts of whether the beautiful parts were ever real and many land on “it was real because I was genuine in my caring for them.” In my situation, for instance, there’s no beauty to be found in any aspect, I let him go because he wanted to destroy me, and the love I had for him all those years is not a beautiful memory for me. But we all have different stories.)
It would be very damaging to hold onto the idea of “MLC” and allow a destructive or abusive person to remain in one’s life simply because one is holding out the hope that the MLC will run its course or that the MLCer is some trapped prisoner whose every action needs to be interpreted like a smoke signal. “ reading between the lines” is IMO damaging in any relationship. But if one is detached and moving on with their life and the MLCer is not having an adverse affect on them, I don’t see why one wouldn’t allow them in their life in whatever way they feel comfortable. Just as we learn a lot from someone like Acorn, who shares with us some perspective from her husband who has been doing the work, we also can learn a lot from those who share their experiences with an MLCer who is still lost.
A song (maybe for Kira and Odo 😉):
https://youtu.be/JeSXEuhQKqw
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I recently had good friends visit me. A couple we were quite close to when our kids were young. I had visited them about a year after BD.
In a discussion concerning my friend's father, who left his mother, for an OW, the comment was made about how happy they were to see me in a much better place. They said "when we saw you years ago, you were terrified of Mr xyzcf." I responded back "terrified????"...and they both agreed. I had never thought about it in those terms.....
My husband was not one of the nasty and hateful MLCer's. Like many here, contact with him used to cause me a lot of anxiety and distress. He contacts me and I mirror back to him. I often write about how contact can be possible and can be a "good" thing. It allows you to have some insight into the changed person they have become, sometimes I needed that to remind me he is not the man I was married to.....but this was my main reason why contact with him was important.
I did not want to continue to have any fear in hearing about him or seeing him. I didn't want that to shake me or send me into a state of distress.....one of the things I worked hard for was taking back my power, the knowledge that I had a choice to see him or not. That has brought me the peace I lost after BD, the divorce, all the sadness......
Having a child is also another reason, and in our case there are specific things that make being together with our daughter a good thing. My daughter and I spent Mother's Day weekend together, and periodically we visit this issue and both come to the same conclusion about his being included. Not all children want to have a relationship with their parent who left them as well and the LBS parent has a lot to deal with either way to support their kids.
I do have beautiful memories of our years together. It used to be painful for me to think about those places and things we both enjoyed, many years shared. I don't want to lose those years by not being able to remember them without it causing me to be sad.
There is freedom in accepting that even though I did not choose this, he has gone his separate way and indeed so have I.
In my yoga class this weekend, my teacher spoke about change. She has some guests visiting her that she has not seen for 10 years and every single one of them agree that their lives had not turned out they way they expected them to have been.
As has been mentioned several times, each situation is different. Our life stories are different and backgrounds and they all contribute to how we make decisions about what is best for us, for our families and I still am willing to consider what is "best" for him.....in the time that we spent together with our daughter.
I can relate to what marvin wrote:
Finally this is a person I have know for a long while. For everything that has happened I wish her no ill will, and in fact I hope one day she finds her way to peace and happiness.
Not everyone will have the opportunity to stay in touch. Many spouses disappear or continue to be mean and hateful, or the LBSer doesn't want contact.....follow what is best for you.
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Our life stories are different and backgrounds and they all contribute to how we make decisions about what is best for us, for our families and I still am willing to consider what is "best" for him.
THIS!!!! That is exactly it!! I have said many times that I hope and am capable of being in a situation like yours with my XH, but I am also aware with who he is married to that he will not be able to reconnect with his kids in a healthy way.
I think hope does not have to be damaging if you are moving forward and are not standing still waiting for it. If I am honest with myself ( which I feel I am now) I don’t think he will ever face his destruction and demons that put him here. I had to make a choice as it was then disrespectful to my kids. ( if that makes sense) If he reaches out then I will Mirror what he is giving. I have empathy for him, but also for my kids and our rebuilding. I have set a good foundation for a friendship if he is capable or needs one. As my sister has said, “ you are the best ex-wife I have ever seen” I think I have been. Showing grace and compassion for him and the family Left behind.
I so love everyone’s thoughts and perspectives as with each you may see something you didn’t consider and that helps us all. It certainly has helped me.
Sorry, Marvin for hijacking your page from my question
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I also dragged this over from why’s journalling page where Marvin wrote When and IF any of us get to the true point of detachment then we can choose what if any advantage there is to interact with our MLCers. But until then no or limited contact and firm boundaries are critical to recovery and healing. And I say this as a someone who still has contact with my MLCers six years out, but I definitely have had extended periods of no or limited contact. Initially in the early days, and now when her behaviour swings back into being highly destructive. I don't need to stick my hand in the blender in the name of caring
This is exactly how I feel!! Sometimes I don’t convey correctly what I mean to say, but this is it!!
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MadLuv nothing to be sorry about and there is no hijack this is a great discussion and I hope useful to others.
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As I was reading other thread updates something became clear to me that I wanted to share. A couple of days ago my wife, for the first time in a few years, actually sent me an attacking and aggressive text. First unlike before I found myself getting a little angry, which is not unexpected. I firmly but gently responded that her text and tone were uncalled for, and she in her own way tried to "walk back" what she had done. I do know that right now her stress and anger levels are once again spiking (no idea why), to the point where a long time helper texted me to tell me she is planning on quitting. I had to intervene (I am not home right now and have not been for a while just to clarify, my wife has been staying at the house).
But what suddenly crystallized for me this morning was this: where I am today the relation I had with my wife at its best would no longer be enough. I know back then, where I was, what I had experienced before and what I expected meant that our relationship was something very important and overall satisfying at that time. But now I would no longer be willing to stay nor would it be worthwhile. I do not say this because of everything she blew up, that changes nothing. But I believe the work I had to do, and my additional understanding and changing myself to not put externally what only I can provide to myself has changed things irrevocably for the better. No I do not wish what I had to go through on anyone, but as many before have said having walked through the rubble and destruction and pain I seem to have gained "transferable skills," a greater sense of peace and freedom.
I sill feel sadness for what my wife is going through, but that is her journey and her path to follow. I do hope she finds a way out of where she is. And I will say what has been said by so many before me: do not sit around waiting for your old life back, start creating a new better one. Better just means one where you work on yourself and become your own best friend/resource/nurturer regardless of or in spite of the external circumstances.
Song for the mood: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iIyrLRixMs8
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I agree Marvin. You can miss the past, but it is just that. The past. Somehow seeing that clearly and realizing if you choose to stand that it will never be that again. Not for you or your MLCer. So, then you have to also realize that what ever initiates this crisis in the first place they still will walk with forever and for some they will never be able to work through it all or there may be residuals left that would make a healthy relationship a challenge forever.
So, I agree in many ways that I also am at a more calm , peaceful and healthier place as well. I dont miss that chaos. That doesn’t mean you dont miss what was. I also like you hope my XH works through his issues and that at some point we all see a part of him reemerge. My kids want their father in their life, but they dont need who he is now.
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But I believe the work I had to do, and my additional understanding and changing myself to not put externally what only I can provide to myself has changed things irrevocably for the better. No I do not wish what I had to go through on anyone, but as many before have said having walked through the rubble and destruction and pain I seem to have gained "transferable skills," a greater sense of peace and freedom.
Needed to hear this today after a tough couple of weeks. I 100% agree on the skills and growth that has occurred within me for going through this MLC experience. My focus for the future is on my own growth and path to peace. Thank you Marvin for continuing to share your story.
HF
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It's been a little while since I posted anything, and mainly that is because there is nothing to post. As I have said before my STBXW has settled into a particular place where she is by no means happy, she fluctuates from somewhat to very anxious, still writes tons of notes to herself every day for basic daily tasks, etc. She still acts anywhere from civil to almost pretending like nothing has happened and everything is as it was years ago. And as the advice that is given here so often I really did detach and have not at all read anything into what she does, says, and our lives are completely separate at this point with the exception of financial and house sharing details.
But something really snapped into focus for me in reading some of the posts of recent newbies and I thought it may be helpful. I realized a while back that when my relationship with my wife was very good (before her fracture) we were very close, we communicated openly, were each others best friend, and had a lot of fun. Always. We were never bored, we did things together and separately and I really had very few issues or complaints (can't speak for her obviously).
But even I had made a very big mistake in that I had stopped truly viewing us as two completely separate adults. We were a single unit, and although we were very independent and would even spend weeks apart at times my internal state had lost a clear separation between me and "us." I have seen over and over that the best model for relationships is one where there are 3 people in the relationship, the 2 participants who are unique and completely separate individuals and the "3rd person" which is where the 2 people join and create the relationship. This is important because if I had managed to hold that idea clearly I would have NEVER assumed that my wife should have been there, I would have NEVER tried to "mind read" or think that I had any rights or have any demands. Because what happened to my wife is purely hers, not mine. And the only component that is impact for "us" was the "3rd person," that relationship. It died the moment of the first BD. But if I had kept this clear emotional separation I would have been able to understand, move on, and not spend any energy in reading tea leaves, think incorrectly that I knew of understood or was entitled to ANYTHING.
I know it is scary and maybe it goes against the made up "romantic ideal" that this is the truth of any relationship. But truthfully if this is not how a relationship operates then it absolutely is co-dependent, enmeshed and unhealthy. And I do see what in the anguished thoughts and actions of so many newbies, because just like me they assume that there was a unit, indivisible, and that any action that occurs is directly aimed at them or that they have any ability to impact that other person by their choices. But if we truly understand there is a 3rd entity and that either part can diminish or terminate this 3rd entity it would help us keep clear boundaries while still allowing us to have healthy and fulfilling relationships. And it fits perfectly with all the advice given, don't assume anything, live your own life, there is no "us," only you and your MLCers.
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I know it is scary and maybe it goes against the made up "romantic ideal" that this is the truth of any relationship. But truthfully if this is not how a relationship operates then it absolutely is co-dependent, enmeshed and unhealthy. And I do see what in the anguished thoughts and actions of so many newbies, because just like me they assume that there was a unit, indivisible, and that any action that occurs is directly aimed at them or that they have any ability to impact that other person by their choices. But if we truly understand there is a 3rd entity and that either part can diminish or terminate this 3rd entity it would help us keep clear boundaries while still allowing us to have healthy and fulfilling relationships. And it fits perfectly with all the advice given, don't assume anything, live your own life, there is no "us," only you and your MLCers.
Thank you Marvin. This the most profound thing that I learned during this past 3 years of craziness. I realize now that after my XW's life-threatening illness 10+ years ago, our relationship become codependent and unhealthy. I can say now that I am a very good place although my XW appears to be still in the thick of her crises.
Hoping this helps other during the early part of the crises. You can find peace no matter what happens with your MLCer.
HF
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I’ve been practicing nonattachment (key word: practicing) and the idea of a separate “third entity” really resonates in a lot of ways. In non-attachment, when a relationship ends, of course you still grieve the loss, but acceptance comes more easily because you’re a whole individual who finds validation from within and you haven’t attached expectations to your partner or the relationship. It’s expectation that really drags us into the abyss.
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Marvin-
I think all that is so true and valid. Where I continue to find an issue is with the children. We can detach, but it is very hard to completely move forward if you have an ex spouse who has walked out on his kids and grandkids. They cant get another father. That puts a very heavy burden on the parent left behind. I hear they are adults. They can handle the relationship. They do. There is none, but the confusion and pain alters them. The non intact family is their reminder.
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Marvin, your relationship sounds a lot like mine. And this 'third entity' idea has got me thinking. I have reflected a lot this last 15 months and I know for sure that I was not co-dependent. Perhaps my H was though. While I agree with the principle of three strands, I see much more complexity. A marriage type partnership cannot be silo'ed in this way, it is intrinsically interwoven with our individual lives. We co-create so many things - children is the obvious co-creation - but also a home, an extended family, friends. It determines where we live, thus where we work, and by extension our lifestyle - eg. the type of exercise we might do depending on say urban as opposed to rural living. This in turn effects our body, our health (I could go on - you get the picture :) ). I may be stating the obvious, but we don't have to be co-dependent to be fundamentally shaped by the marriage/partnership we chose. We co-create based on an emotional and physical bond and we trust in that third, shared entity. And this means we must negotiate and compromise at times. I was really aware of when I was compromising to continue a life with my H, but to me, in balance, the scales tipped towards living with H. So, arguably, when one compromises, we 'lose' a bit of our individual self. But this is what a relationship is, is it not? Adjust our shape to work with the adjusted shape of another. And we benefit, good relationships are rewarding. I don't see this as co-dependence, I see it as the investment and risk of being in a loving, bonded relationship.
Perhaps I am being too black and white - just my musings really. And it's been interesting for me to consider this, as I grieve the loss of my marriage, which involves untangling much of the above and quite often, conflicting emotions about my H. So thank you for sharing! I can certainly. see the third entity idea working extremely well in a relationship where each person keeps home, finances, diary etc separate. I do know some people like that. I guess it's down to what we choose.
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I’ve been practicing nonattachment (key word: practicing) and the idea of a separate “third entity” really resonates in a lot of ways. In non-attachment, when a relationship ends, of course you still grieve the loss, but acceptance comes more easily because you’re a whole individual who finds validation from within and you haven’t attached expectations to your partner or the relationship. It’s expectation that really drags us into the abyss.
I read the article you posted and it has so much wisdom. In addition to non attachment the idea of observing our feelings and reactions and NOT becoming them in itself is so important. It doesn't mean we don't hurt or do not feel, rather we get to swim in the lake of the feeling rather than stuck at the bottom holding a rock in our lap.
Where I continue to find an issue is with the children. We can detach, but it is very hard to completely move forward if you have an ex spouse who has walked out on his kids and grandkids. They cant get another father. That puts a very heavy burden on the parent left behind. I hear they are adults. They can handle the relationship. They do. There is none, but the confusion and pain alters them.
I have no children so I am not speaking from experience. But when children are adults they are at a point where they are responsible for and have to decide what all relationships, including the ones with their parents, mean to them and how they live with expectations and lack. As the remaining parent all you can do is be the best parent you can be, you only have the ability to be part of your relationship with your kids. If we truly realize that the other parent is not a part of us, that we have no ability to shape their relationship and how they feel why can't you move forward? This is a question, not a statement to be clear.
I may be stating the obvious, but we don't have to be co-dependent to be fundamentally shaped by the marriage/partnership we chose. We co-create based on an emotional and physical bond and we trust in that third, shared entity. And this means we must negotiate and compromise at times. I was really aware of when I was compromising to continue a life with my H, but to me, in balance, the scales tipped towards living with H. So, arguably, when one compromises, we 'lose' a bit of our individual self. But this is what a relationship is, is it not?
Great point. Thinking about it this is a choice that each of us make and we choose to what degree. I absolutely agree we choose, compromise, adjust to create any relationship. But question is at what point is a compromise costing us a part of ourselves, at what point we have put to much of our needs and desires into creating this third "entity" and at what cost. Even if we are not emotionally co-dependent what does it mean if we find the benefits and satisfaction of a relationship with someone else as being more than our satisfaction and benefits of being "ourselves?" If one end of the spectrum is living a completely satisfying life but alone, and the other end is to subsume ourselves completely in the name of compromise where is the correct place to land on this spectrum? My experience has been that most people in long term relationships tend to move too far towards the later, which unfortunately means no longer have a clear bounded sense of themselves outside of a relationship. I know I had absolutely done that.
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Our beliefs about marriage, children and family are formed during our earliest experiences in our own families as well as our cultural norms and religious formation.
Being a "team", working together and supporting one another is an ongoing process in a healthy marriage. The ability to communicate one's wants and needs, the willgness of another to support us and in turn our willingness to journey with them is what makes this intimate relationship different from others that we have in life.
Marriage is not just a contractual agreement for me. In my faith, it is the joining of two to become one flesh, a covenant made and vows exchanged before God.
Up until BD, he was as convinced of the sanctity of marriage as I am . When he broke the vows made to me, the promises made, I could not comprehend how this most intimate partner could "change his mind".... as we all know, it was devastating and takes a considerable amount of time to recover from.
Not because our marriage was unhealthy or that we were too co-dependent, but because this betrayal, rejection and abandonment was from our spouse, not a coworker, not a friend, not even another family member...but a much deeper and more complex union than any other.
As for children, it doesn't matter if they are adults or not. Their family unit, the stability that they have known all their lives, their parent who has changed suddenly into someone they do not know...this does impact them greatly. Many people have written here of the issues their adult children are having, the therapy they have needed and the emptiness of a "broken" family.
I am in agreement with Kay Dee:
I see much more complexity. A marriage type partnership cannot be silo'ed in this way, it is intrinsically interwoven with our individual lives. We co-create so many things - children is the obvious co-creation - but also a home, an extended family, friends.
we don't have to be co-dependent to be fundamentally shaped by the marriage/partnership we chose. We co-create based on an emotional and physical bond and we trust in that third, shared entity.
Perhaps the danger is in the long term, if the LBSer cannot completely detach and build a life without their spouse. During the marriage, it is important to be independent and have a life separate from that of our partner. A marriage requires compromise at times and thinking that somehow our marriages were "unhealthy" seems to me to be rewriting history and somehow finding fault with our role in the breakup...when indeed, it truely is not about us or about the marriages we had.
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A marriage requires compromise at times and thinking that somehow our marriages were "unhealthy" seems to me to be rewriting history and somehow finding fault with our role in the breakup...when indeed, it truely is not about us or about the marriages we had.
Thanks XYZCF I only want to make something very clear. I am in no way saying that marriages are "unhealthy" or rewriting history. I think it is absolutely possible to invest in the "3rd party," the common marriage, whatever ones religious or early upbringing shaped beliefs are. And still maintain a healthy separate individuals, both contributing, shaping, creating and nurturing the "3rd party." These things are not mutually incompatible. It does not remove the need to still maintain the separate individual, not dependent or placing ones core well being into the relationship. I made my own personal mistakes as I have shared where in my own work I placed a bit of my safety and the trust in the relationship, not in myself, and then from there contribute to the relationship.
Maintaining a healthy independent individual in no way diminishes a healthy strong relationship. There is a difference in trusting the 3rd entity in a bounded way than NEEDING the 3rd entity to be ok.
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Maintaining a healthy independent individual in no way diminishes a healthy strong relationship.
I agree and think it actually strengthens the healthy relationship. No person can meet all the needs of another person and shouldn't be burdened to do that.
This doesn't mean that the relationship is less. It means that each person can have friends, personal and work interests and identities that are specific to them that the other person respects.
It's a balance of how much a person compromises to be in a relationship. An abusive relationship would be one side of the pendulum and a completely cohabiting, disinterested, transactional marriage on the other side of the pendulum.
I see Marvin describing what the middle and most healthy relationship could be so that the people in the marriage are healthy and the relationship is also healthy.
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If we truly realize that the other parent is not a part of us, that we have no ability to shape their relationship and how they feel why can't you move forward? This is a question, not a statement to be clear
I think it is just so complex. You picked this person. You feel responsible in many ways that you “stuck” your kids with this. Also, no matter how hard you try and do your best alone , you can’t make up for that missing piece for them. The rejection they feel. Also, it is that black cloud that isn’t being talked about, but is there. Also, the longer the marriage and normalcy that harder the change. I know when my daughter was given her dads briefcase with communication emails of an EA affair from 2011 she recently stated to her aunt that it changed everything for her. She doesn’t know him and how he came home to us for so long living a lie.
30 years of normal to insanity. They have to watch him parent someone elses adult kids while they ignore them. The trauma is just so much. From my kids to my nieces and nephews. Just so much pain. Time should help, but I think if he remains a lost soul that this will be a lifetime issue in our lives. I pray everyday he finds his way enough to reconnect with his kids. With that said I think we are all trying to just move forward, but our family is very fractured. It has changed the dynamics in a way that I can’t or haven’t completely found a way to repair it, but I continue to try.
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There is a saying: "As a parent, you are only ever as happy as your unhappiest child". I think it's very true.
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I had an interesting bit of clarity that I wanted to share and add some of my thoughts here not to pollute other people story threads so here goes.
I was listening to a podcast and a thoughtful man was talking about the things that mattered in his life and he brought up how he is loved by his wife. And what he said clearly is something I personally believe and it was summed up like this: he knows that every day she chooses him and that act of being chosen is what make being loved valuable and real. I do not believe in "magical" ideas of love nor do I believe in religious definitions of marriage as a lifelong enforced bond. I believed that what my W and I shared was valuable because we CHOSE to share our lives for almost 23 years, whether married or not. Until the day she decided to no longer choose me.
And somewhere in the back of my mind this manifested into an interesting dream. I was in a room with my wife and she was actually clear and honest and her "old" self. I was asking her questions and she was answering truthfully. And all I remember was her calmly stating "I choose him" apparently in response to a question. And then I woke up.
Nothing shocking or revelatory, just my thoughts manifesting what is going on. And it occurred to me that the best course maybe that we can take is to accept that simple fact. Stop blaming menopause (oh that one is a doozy, women just go "crazy" obviously, maybe let's even say "hysterical" for those of you who know where that word comes from, I can't believe in 2023 there are people who still talk about hormones controlling behaviour of women ffs). Stop explaining how they are in pain (of course they are, but that is not a catch all explanation). Stop trying to "love them" to health, if that worked we would not need therapist, trauma specialists and psychiatrists. Accept simply that they are no longer choosing you. Yes it is painful. Yes it is life shattering. Yes it is a betrayal. And sadly it is simply what it is.
And I say all this as someone who still cares for the well being of a person I called my best friend for over two decades. And I have no anger, no animosity, and honestly accepted that what we had was over at least 5 years ago. But I also understand that it is all up to her, I am just someone who watches from afar. If a day comes and she ASKS for help AND I can help her I will. But as they, I am not holding my breath.
I have posted this song before, but it fits well.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_RVoBR1AlVQ
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Wow, what timing, I just the other day had a long conversation about “choosing” and “being chosen.” I suspect most here would resonate with your words. It was different in my marriage. True narcissists don’t value us for who we are, rather what we provide for them. The beauty of choosing your partner and having them choose you, someone seeing the value of “you,” there is unbelievable value in that.
I think respect for the people we care about is one of if not the most important thing, and it struck me that choosing to accept her choices also is a big testament to the value of what you shared.
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Great set of posts. I've been mulling it over while doing the housework ;D I think I am in accord, although I seem to snag a bit on the word choose. Maybe because I have a mental image of someone choosing between a blue sweater or a red one - or vanilla or strawberry icecream? There's a bit of objectification in this image I conjure. I do get the sense of this action of choice, but the snagging on the word - that's really interesting for me in terms of how we build relationships.
I also throw out some consideration for the bigger context of said choices. Is it possible that someone chooses from within the landscape they find themselves in - rather than solely on the other person? And/or based on a belief that the choice is no longer there? e.g. they choose not to try and fix something or believe something is not fixable?
And, IMO we should ask ourselves the same question? Do we now choose our crisis partner? For me that is an equally important and can be overlooked when one didn't make the original 'choice'.
All sort of rhetorical remarks and questions really, because ultimately it is still a set of choices. Thanks for such a thought-provoking post Marvin.
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KayDee some interesting thoughts to mull over, thanks.
To clarify for me the idea of "choosing" is not about objects, rather emotional actions. Some people think "love" is something that "happens," you are "soul mates" or "lighting strikes." It is a passive construct, that somehow there is some "magic" that brings people together. I believe in another version that is used more commonly in some circles: we actively CHOOSE to invest our emotional energy and resources rather than passively. That doesn't mean that just anyone will do, but it does imply there is no single "person" for any of us. Rather if there is enough compatibility, overlap of needs and world views, or even in the tension of opposition there is a possibility for us to "choose" that this is the friend/partner/spouse we invest our emotional resources. And if we do this every day we keep building and rebuilding and evolving that relationship. Rather than "we got married and stagnated."
The best model I have seen is that this kind of "love" is like a container. Every day you fill and empty a different amount. And over time if you choose to "fill" more than "empty" then your container is full and that is what being "loved" is. And when people don't do that it simply empties out over time and they claim they have fallen "out of love."
And in the case of what happens to the psyche of some of our partners the vessel is shattered as part of the fracture. That is how they can go from "I love you" to nothing in such a short period of time. Healthy psyches can not change course and drain all the invested emotional currency that quickly.
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KayDee some interesting thoughts to mull over, thanks.
To clarify for me the idea of "choosing" is not about objects, rather emotional actions. Some people think "love" is something that "happens," you are "soul mates" or "lighting strikes." It is a passive construct, that somehow there is some "magic" that brings people together. I believe in another version that is used more commonly in some circles: we actively CHOOSE to invest our emotional energy and resources rather than passively. That doesn't mean that just anyone will do, but it does imply there is no single "person" for any of us. Rather if there is enough compatibility, overlap of needs and world views, or even in the tension of opposition there is a possibility for us to "choose" that this is the friend/partner/spouse we invest our emotional resources. And if we do this every day we keep building and rebuilding and evolving that relationship. Rather than "we got married and stagnated."
Oh, yes, I understood exactly what you were saying. And I have read that before, about love being a choices. So, I was just considering my reaction to the word, because it is often instructive, when we jar with something. Haven't come to any conclusions yet though. I too don't believe in the ol' classic lightening strike love event - attraction, yes, but love, no, that is nurtured and grown and nurtured. I mean, if it were true that there was only The One, we'd die out a species trying to find our matches in the billions of possibilities. Would make a very boring film 8)
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And somewhere in the back of my mind this manifested into an interesting dream. I was in a room with my wife and she was actually clear and honest and her "old" self. I was asking her questions and she was answering truthfully. And all I remember was her calmly stating "I choose him" apparently in response to a question. And then I woke up.
I had a remarkably similar dream recently as well. In my dream, my ex-wife was the same as I remember her being though distraught. We were even talking (literally only in my dreams!). It ended with her telling me "I don't know why, but this is what I want". And I woke up. She would always tell me something to the effect of: the grass grows where you water it. While I never thought she would start watering somewhere else, that is what she's done.
Anyway, your dream was too similar for me to not share my own. To contribute a bit to this thread, I personally agree that love is a decision. Maybe to try to be more precise, while I can't pick which emotions I experience, I can decide how to manifest them. I, as I imagine everyone else here, still feel a great passive hope for the well-being of my ex-wife. I'm not, however, going to water the ground beneath her feet.
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Thank you, Marvin, for your insightful post.
we actively CHOOSE to invest our emotional energy and resources rather than passively.
I call that ‘Loving (love-ing) is a choice.’ :)
I personally find the ‘hormone’ talk rather revealing, and so are:
‘Alien is controlling my spouse’
‘This is MLCer persona talking, not my real spouse’
And, so on.
In my view, one of the underpinning ideas behind these phrases is about (unintentionally, I’m sure) diminishing accountability on behalf of the spouse, not that thinking that way actually accomplishes that for an entirely separate and sentient human being. One can deduce then, this way of looking at MLCer serves LBS in one way or another. It soothes something in him/her. I suggest it is about LBS’s needs. Not a bad thing to contemplate about. I’ve been there, too.
I would also add that a person is a total sum of who he/she was and is and all the facets of themselves they present according to the time, place, people, situation, etc. It is a package deal. You wouldn’t want to cherry pick the stuff you don’t like or want to accept and then attribute them to something else. That is a fruitless mental gymnastics.
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In my view, one of the underpinning ideas behind these phrases is about (unintentionally, I’m sure) diminishing accountability on behalf of the spouse, not that thinking that way actually accomplishes that for an entirely separate and sentient human being. One can deduce then, this way of looking at MLCer serves LBS in one way or another. It soothes something in him/her. I suggest it is about LBS’s needs. Not a bad thing to contemplate about. I’ve been there, too.
Good point that is layed out clearly. Worth thinking over. How do we position the weird similarities in our experiences and yet acknowledge that the MLCer is a separate, autonomous, adult human being?
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I’ve been there, too.
It might not seem like very much, but I was thinking how often we say this very sentence in some form or another. “Been there, done that….” “ I did the same exact thing…”
“That’s exactly how I felt…”
We all do the same things.
MLCers in the onset of unraveling behave in remarkably similar ways. LBS respond in remarkably similar ways. We’re all just human.
Human behavior is often very predictable even in those situations where we never could have predicted it. There is a reason why we can cite so many terms like projection and denial, cognitive dissonance, regression, snd we can see how they apply in each situation. When the psyche fractures, we see “parts“ of another person that we never saw before. But the psyche contains the unconscious and the conscious, and since we can never fully know another person, and we can absolutely never know another person‘s unconscious self, when the psyche fractures, we see something that appears to be a person we don’t know.
IMO, rather than being “alien,” a person in crisis might be said to be something more like “hyper-human.” We see parts of them that we never could have imagined existed. But it is them. A version of them. Some things in life are hard to admit, and that’s one of them.
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I've read what you and Acorn wrote multiple times to better understand this. I'm going to attempt to rephrase it as a learning exercise, so freely comment/correct.
The pressures of arriving at midlife and viewing the inevitable end brings to the fore parts of a MLCer that previously were hidden. The pressures may include feeling like they haven't attained what they thought they would at this stage of their life, or unresolved issues from their childhood, or being tired of suppressing their wants for so long and seeing this as a last chance to act on them.
So they unravel and act on those parts of them. From this site, most people suppress wanting attention, sex, relationship(s) with others. Most people want to not worry about money and buy new things they didn't allow themselves to buy before. Most people want a new profession.
So they act on these things. Why lie, cheat, and come up with ridiculous reasons for doing this? Why blame the LBS and abandon children? Why do some people not succumb to these parts of themselves?
Why do some re-suppress these parts of themselves and reconcile?
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Why lie, cheat, and come up with ridiculous reasons for doing this? Why blame the LBS and abandon children? Why do some people not succumb to these parts of themselves?
I know the question was not for me, but I want to share my belief on this part. We have a false idea that what we call the "self"is this coherent well designed construct. It is not. We really are a collection of somewhat independent forces, some from more instinct driven and "core" drives (what you can generally consider behaviour motivators or action forces) and memory/learning/projecting into future by learning from past higher functions that evolved over time that act as regulators (or break/halt systems). The overall behaviour we exhibit is the net balance of these conflicting forces. And empathy/caring for others also acts as an important regulator/selector.
Now imagine if someone suffers some form of psychological crises and these forces no longer balance. And due to extreme internal pressure and pain some of the components no longer operate as before (like memory, empathy, and ability to experience others as separate from the self). You are left with a hodgepodge of behavioural trains that take over and come to the front to the exclusion of others. Rage is a good example. We all feel anger but it is mostly modulated by understanding and care and sometimes just not wanting to seem like an a**hole.
So you are watching a fragmented kaleidoscope of mostly more core behaviours (instant gratification from sex/spending and behaviours you see in teenagers, because they have not yet fully developed the balancing portions), but the kaleidoscope view is not stable. So what we experience can shift dramatically. Its like a hall of mirrors.
If they know what they do is painful to others, but can't reconcile that or won't stop themselves blame and anger can act to modulate or compensate for the guilt.
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But the outright hatred / contempt for the spouse... That’s the only part that doesn’t add up.
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But the outright hatred / contempt for the spouse... That’s the only part that doesn’t add up.
One explanation is a version of transference of their own guilt, anger and hate onto the person closest to them. I saw it clearly in my W where she accused me of causing her things that were directly result of her own choices. I believe ironically because they felt most safe and close to us we become the easy target, kind of like a child acting out with safe parents.
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The parent - child analogy is a good one I think Marvin.
How many of us said hurtful things to our parents in our teenage years and didn’t mean what we said or realised how upsetting it might be to our parents….. exactly the same in the case of an MLCer who generally appear to lack emotional maturity
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But the outright hatred / contempt for the spouse... That’s the only part that doesn’t add up.
‘If it’s not my fault, it must be yours….and that’s much less uncomfortable than it being mine’ is my best take on this. Blaming someone or something else is a pretty common way for humans to avoid looking in the mirror and holding ourselves accountable for creating or tidying up our own mess, isn’t it? A lot of humans find anger easier than sorrow or shame. And contempt is what allows us to dehumanise people sufficiently to justify treating them poorly without feeling the empathy or compassion that woukd demand more and better of us.
At a deeper psychological level tbh, I suspect this is also how people whose sense of self is overly attached to another, and who no longer value that ‘self’, sever that attachment in some cases ; a rather violent burning of bridges without much middle ground.
Writing this, I am still reminded though that it really has very little to do with me as a person. Or you. That one is just acceptable (to them) collateral damage in their own strategy for attempting to make themselves feel better. I guess it makes sense that this would continue if they do not magically feel better lol, although most LBS here find that puzzling when it seems that they have got what they wanted, right? But again, that’s not uncommon based on stories here, is it?
Once I got past the ‘this can’t be happening’ and ‘my h has been replaced by an alien’ stage - which took a really long time for me lol - my version of trying to make sense of what made no sense to me came to be based on two relatively simple principles.
The first was that none of us can ‘know’ what someone else really thinks or feels and it’s an arrogant folly to think we do, particularly if we want to believe something which is at odds with what their behaviour looks like. Yet we humans are patterning creatures and any long close relationship is based on assumptions about those repeating patterns….everything from small things like someone not liking cheese to big things like how they behave as a parent. We are biologically wired to believe that a person tomorrow will be much like they were today, so it’s a bit of a shock to the system if they suddenly start eating cheese after hating it for twenty years!
So, for instance, if someone behaves as if they do not care about us, it’s reasonable to assume that’s because they do not care about us but we struggle with that for a while bc it doesn’t fit that recognisable pattern. We may not understand why. It may feel unfair or irrational that they do. But it is the simplest explanation. Yet it is often so painful to see this that it is easier, at least for a while, to construct some kind of denial box around it…..and imho that’s an inherent weak spot in going too much into the ‘MLC made them do it, it’s not the real them’ argument.
And on the issue of the ‘real them’ - and indeed the ‘real me’ lol - my second principle became that it is indeed like a child’s toy kaleidoscope. That behaviours don’t come from nowhere but new situations twist the kaleidoscope into a different pattern, sometimes a pattern not seen before.
I learned that when I am alone, grieving and afraid, my kaleidoscope became a cave I hid in, disabled by sorrow and grief, like a small child. I don’t much like that picture and if you had asked me before this experience, it would not at all have been recognisable to me as who I am or how I thought of myself. Yet it turned out it is, in the right combination of circumstances. My recovery required me to make peace with that pattern as part of me….and I couldn’t change the pattern until I did. Which took years for me ::)
On the same principle, I learned that my xh’s kaleidoscope pattern in his own set of circumstances was more cruel, more angry, more deceitful and more avoidant than mine was…he did things that I found, even in extreme circumstances, were just not in my mix…..but they were in his, and that was his way of dealing with the situation he felt he was in, just like my metaphorical cave was mine. Both imho are part but not all of who we are.
I have no idea if my xh, or your xw, find that pattern sufficiently uncomfortable to live with that they made peace with it in order to consciously change the pattern. If they did, it makes sense to me that this might take years for them as well. If not, perhaps they find the new pattern easier than I did or their circumstances changed sufficiently that it gave their kaleidoscope a third and different twist, idk. But it makes sense to me that, even if some internal crisis twisted his kaleidoscope into something unrecognisable to me, that version of my h is who he is when he wants to leave a long marriage and prior life. If he ever finds himself in a similar situation again, it is likely that he will find himself doing much the same. Bc none of the new kaleidoscope pattern was about me at all…..it was his way of dealing with the situation as he saw it. And like most humans, without effort or insight, if we find ourselves in a similar situation, we tend to repeat what we’ve done before, don’t we? Well, unless it becomes blindingly obvious that what worked before won’t work now lol….which is I think part of the unpicking that most LBS here find themselves going through.
What does that all mean imho?
I think it means that there is some benefit to the ‘quacks like a duck’ principle when it comes to seeing other peoples kaleidoscope patterns. And that often the simplest solution is the most likely, even if we don’t understand why a goose has become a duck. We don’t need to in order to see a duck in front of us, quacking away just like a duck. I didn’t need to understand my xh’s indifference to see it. You don’t need to understand your xw’s contempt or anger to see it. And then, once one sees it, one can choose what to do about the quacking duck. Or not.
More importantly, and more usefully probably, I think we LBS need to look hard - and with a very kind and encouraging eye - at our own LBS kaleidoscope pattern. To see what this experience created in us including things that perhaps we did not know were in the mix that might show up given the combination of a certain set of awful circumstances. I don’t know what your own kaleiscope looks like now, Why, but your unresolved questions might be part of it? And how to make peace with that as part but not all of who we are. And then to decide how, or if, we want to give our own kaleidoscope a twist to create another different pattern. If only bc that IS something we can do something about. Other people’s kaleidoscopes, not so much :)
As always, for all of us, jmo and a sample of one lol.
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You hit the nail in the head Treasur. I was one of those who kept insisting MLC made him do it. My IC told me straight away my exh might have MLC but those hurtful and harmful things he did that cause me so much pain were his conscious choices. He was not in trance or sleep walking that he didn’t know what he was doing or wasn’t aware that he was hurting people. It also took me a while to accept this. For a long time I defended my ex to my family and friends and even to my therapist that he was in crisis that’s why he did all those things. It was easier to soothe your ego doing this than accepting he didn’t care about me anymore. I believe my exh is in MLC but he is accountable to those bad choices he did. Those are his choices. He did those things even though he knew they would hurt me. That for me is clear now. He is capable of hurting me in a profound way and people who truly love you wouldn’t do these things. Loving is a choice backed up with actions.
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It helped me to realise that my H's actions weren't about me. They are enacted in the context of his newly formed and complete self-centeredness. I can guess why he is like this, but it doesn't matter so much, because the effect on me is still the same. For me, I'm not sure it's indifference - I used previously the analogy of a stage light that only encircles the actor - he is not able to 'see' beyond his own needs and pain at the moment. If/when, he is able to step outside his stage light, when he is no longer self-centered (i.e when I, or those close to me no longer exclaim 'it's still all about him!' :) ) then I will take that as a sign that something has shifted. If I still care to observe, that is.
Funny, as this thread is called 'it's not you, it's me' ;)
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It helped me to realise that my H's actions weren't about me. They are enacted in the context of his newly formed and complete self-centeredness. I can guess why he is like this, but it doesn't matter so much, because the effect on me is still the same. For me, I'm not sure it's indifference - I used previously the analogy of a stage light that only encircles the actor - he is not able to 'see' beyond his own needs and pain at the moment. If/when, he is able to step outside his stage light, when he is no longer self-centered (i.e when I, or those close to me no longer exclaim 'it's still all about him!' :) ) then I will take that as a sign that something has shifted. If I still care to observe, that is.
Funny, as this thread is called 'it's not you, it's me' ;)
Great analogy. Thanks Kay
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Wishing you contentment and quiet joy in 2024!
Reinventing asked interesting questions some time ago. Marvin, I hope you don’t mind that I go back to these questions and try to give my POV.
How do we position the weird similarities in our experiences and yet acknowledge that the MLCer is a separate, autonomous, adult human being?
Re: ‘weird similarities in our experiences’
Nas made a pithy observation and I couldn’t agree more:
We’re all just human.
Human behavior is often very predictable even in those situations where we never could have predicted it.
Re ‘yet acknowledge that the MLCer is a separate, autonomous, adult human being’
I don’t think we have any choice but acknowledge this incontrovertible fact.
To think otherwise — ‘MLCer is not a separate, autonomous, adult human being’ — is incomprehensible. We have no right or power to diminish the personhood of another adult.
I do see it might be beneficial if we can turn the lens around to LBS — LBS should recognize and wholly embrace that he/she is a separate autonomous adult human being, apart from others, for example, MLCer.
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Reinventing wrote:
The pressures of arriving at midlife and viewing the inevitable end brings to the fore parts of a MLCer that previously were hidden.
It is my view that there are aspects in all of us we didn’t even know existed until they pop up when we are faced with drastic changes and challenges in our circumstances, such as identity crisis at midlife or LBS at BD. Very human, very understandable.
Why lie, cheat, and come up with ridiculous reasons for doing this? Why blame the LBS and abandon children?
Re; why lie and cheat
I cannot read other’s minds as to the whys so I’m unable to make general comments.
However, I can share how H very simply explained it: he didn’t want unpleasant reckoning of his wrong deeds. As simple as that. Yes, again, very human.
Re: ridiculous reasons:
It took me a long time to see the big picture of those reasons, rather than focussing on the absurdity of each one. Before I understood what his overarching theme was, I wrote about his ‘ridiculous’ reasons in an arrogant, snarky and dismissive way on my old threads. I would take them back if I could…
Re: turning away from me, our children, his FOO and friends, the community and everyone and everything associated with his life before his crisis:
He had this inexplicable primal urge to leave behind everything of his past, and said ‘you are part of that past.’
Why do some re-suppress these parts of themselves and reconcile?
I obvisouly cannot comment on behalf of other reconciled couples or make general comments. Again, I’m willing to share our sample of one.
Through many conversations I’ve had with my husband, we would like to think that we have become more self aware, gained insight into what unsavoury deeds and reactions we are capable of, the importance of self control, communicating our needs and misgivings clearly and in timely manner and not let them fester, etc.
H and I need to be on guard against the worst parts of ourselves and constantly call upon the better angels of our nature. We hope we stay the course.
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Through many conversations I’ve had with my husband, we would like to think that we have become more self aware, gained insight into what unsavoury deeds and reactions we are capable of, the importance of self control, communicating our needs and misgivings clearly and in timely manner and not let them fester, etc.
Love this and just want to add especially to newbies that you don’t need to wait for a reconciliation to focus on these things. Acorn has provided a perfect example of an important part of the oft repeated phrase “doing the work.” These things are important for our relationship with ourselves first and foremost, and then we can show up authentically in our relationships with others.
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thank you Acorn for that brilliant reply and KayDee for the stagelight analogy! so helpful!
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Great post Acorn and all other participants to the discussion. Thank you very much to give this simple and human explanation regarding the actions of people under MLC. It helps to understand and then to focus on oneself.
Working on oneself to improve the relationships with other people is key for all LBSs from my POV : I totally agree with Nas.
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Hello all, that was an interesting set of posts and views (thank you everyone for sharing).
There is only one reason I wanted to post something today. I am now almost exactly at the 7 year mark from the first official BD which came out of nowhere. If you have been following my thread here (most of my observations and updates were in another site and devolved into an almost surreal attack and my leaving/deleting all my posts) you probably know that I "moved on" around 5.5 years ago around BD3 I believe (I honestly don't even remember anymore nor care). But I am in the exception group where my W is still in the house a lot of times (and I am not when she comes home), we do keep in contact and it ranges from distant to daily conversations as if nothing has happened. I hold no desire, hope or path to reconciling, but I also wish her the best and want her to find her way to happiness. I have no resentment, anger only memories of all of years together, still some deep moments of loss and sorrow over what was lost, but complete clarity that I have NO INTEREST in any relationship with my W in any capacity.
I am firmly in the camp that what we call MLC is a major psychological event, something that was rooted way in the past, not treated until a very significant fracture occurs. I do not believe in any timelines nor that this is just an even that requires "time." I believe in the opposite, this is like a building falling down, time will not restore anything. If it was to be rebuilt it would require the willingness and great deal of effort, and few MLCers seem to have the skills to do it (in fact if they did they would have done it before the building fell down).
So my thought for today is this: if you are early in this journey (say first 2 years) I think it is absolutely normal to try to "understand" and "fix" and want the old life back. Yes you will hear that that life ended at or before BD1. But its one thing to hear it, another to have to let the consequences of that true resonate and shape your life. That part takes time and comes in many many layers.
But when you have stabilized maybe ask yourself this: what kind of odds would you require if someone could "predict" some kind of reconciliation in let's say seven years (a number that I believe randomly is thrown around a lot). Would you be willing to take a chance at waiting 7 years of the odds were 1 in 100? 10 in 100? 50/50? And how would you feel if waited for seven precious years and then discovered that your MLCer is really exactly where they were at BD1, but with some minor tweaks and changes. Maybe the crumbled building has been cleaned up a bit and has a nice parking lot to torture the analog.
So hello from the seven year mark, where my W is just as unhappy, just as anxious, but with new coats of paints and slightly different games than when she started.
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True Marvin. I think if you have been through multiple BD’s and a live in and live out MLCer with time like you said ( specially after year2) you do come to more realization of the situation. I believe in the crisis, but not timelines or even stages as each MLCer has their own FOO that created their crisis. They make bad choices and if they have seen how they have hurt you and choose to hurt you again ( mutli BD’s) well, that is a bit diabolical in my mind. So, I do think you have to look at how much can you forgive.
Can you trust someone capable of this? The longer it goes the harder the repair. The most pain I have felt besides the discard of myself and more so our kids and grandson comes from the fact the person I knew and built a life for 30 plus years will never be again who I loved. Not ever. I will never see him the same. Not if he did a national broadcast on TV apologizing and begging for forgiveness. I could never have nor could I still do that to someone.( and we are all thrown into our crisis ) So how could you rebuild a life with someone who did it to you? It would be hard. We have seen it, but it is rare!
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I still remember the point - pre divorce but about 2 years in about - when it suddenly struck me that I had already lost what I had wanted so much to not lose. Regardless of what I or my then h did or did not do. That I had deeply valued a relationship in which I felt unthinkingly safe and appreciated, even treasured lol, and one that had decades of shared history. Whether with a ‘recovered’ version of my h, or indeed a new relationship with someone else, I could not have those things back. And tbh at that time I could have thrown a cat in a room of random male strangers and probably found someone who would have been more kind and respectful to me than my h was, so a poor bet! I could not get what I had back. I could not look at him, me, the world or our relationship in the way I used to. I could only have something different. I found that realisation profoundly sad and quite helpful at the same time.
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Exactly, you cant ever get how you saw them back. That person is lost forever, no matter what happens. It is such a sad realization. Whether they were or weren’t that person doesn’t matter much in the place we are now. They aren‘t that person and will never be. Irregardless of it is their fault or not.
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If it was to be rebuilt it would require the willingness and great deal of effort, and few MLCers seem to have the skills to do it (in fact if they did they would have done it before the building fell down).
Marvin you absolutely NAILED it. If they had the maturity and coping mechanisms to deal with this, they wouldn’t have entered crisis in the first place.
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I think this rings true to me too. Plus the extra damage created by their crisis choices on top of whatever else they were carrying. Having said that, to be fair, there are some cases of reconciliation, just not many. With hindsight, I find it more remarkable that there are any tbh
But, to also be fair, part of what changed was also my lens. There came a point when I just no longer believed what I used to believe or had the same priorities. Once I got to that point, there was literally nothing that my xh could have said or done. Wanting reconciliation became as inconceivable to that me as MLC BD had been all those years before. So, although I never had the choice in my situation, I stopped wanting that choice to be available if that makes sense. And it’s important to my sense of peace to own that too. I’m not sure my h completely killed my residual love for him entirely - although he gave it a good go lol - but he did succeed in killing my trust in him as a good person to have in my life and most of my beliefs about his half of our relationship pretty thoroughly. To me, that was a sad thing and a big life loss. To him? I have no idea. Which is probably the biggest change in my perspective.
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So my thought for today is this: if you are early in this journey (say first 2 years) I think it is absolutely normal to try to "understand" and "fix" and want the old life back. Yes you will hear that that life ended at or before BD1. But its one thing to hear it, another to have to let the consequences of that true resonate and shape your life. That part takes time and comes in many many layers.
But when you have stabilized maybe ask yourself this: what kind of odds would you require if someone could "predict" some kind of reconciliation in let's say seven years (a number that I believe randomly is thrown around a lot). Would you be willing to take a chance at waiting 7 years of the odds were 1 in 100? 10 in 100? 50/50? And how would you feel if waited for seven precious years and then discovered that your MLCer is really exactly where they were at BD1, but with some minor tweaks and changes. Maybe the crumbled building has been cleaned up a bit and has a nice parking lot to torture the analog.
So hello from the seven year mark, where my W is just as unhappy, just as anxious, but with new coats of paints and slightly different games than when she started.
Hi Marvin,
thank you very much to share your knowledge here and to continue to post for the newbies that we are, less than 2 year mark. I am at 1 year after BD, and thanks to the wise advices here I am completely detached and I have dropped the rope. I am still open to a reconnection and reconciliation, but I know it won't come from me : I can not "fix" or "save" our marriage. I have accepted that our marriage is broken and I have understood that it needs 2 people to build or rebuild a relationship, so I don't waste any energy on it right now. I have "done the job" and continue to work on myself, I do it for me, not for anyone else even if I believe my inner work is benefitial to all my relationships.
For me "Standing" does not mean "Waiting". I make my own choices, I do what is good to me. I continue to behave as a husband, a father and a man, I am faithtful to my vows, for myself and not for the marriage.
The advices given here are fine : "live as if she will never come back" - "forget the timeline" - "detach" - "protect yourself and the children", etc... It fits with what you write about the odds and the unpredictability of the future.
I hope there might be a reconciliation in the future, but I am not expecting it. I know I will be fine whatever the future.
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Hi Marvin,
I have read all your story from the beginning (well the beginning in THS), and I thank you so much for the hindsights and the wisdom you bring here. Many times I nodded when I read. We have chosen different paths : you chose to move on after 6 months. I chose and choose to Stand with a live-in spouse under MLC. What you write helps me a lot to understand what I am facing, and also what I have to choose for me and for my life. Thanks to continue to write in THS and to share your thoughts
A marriage requires compromise at times and thinking that somehow our marriages were "unhealthy" seems to me to be rewriting history and somehow finding fault with our role in the breakup...when indeed, it truely is not about us or about the marriages we had.
Thanks XYZCF I only want to make something very clear. I am in no way saying that marriages are "unhealthy" or rewriting history. I think it is absolutely possible to invest in the "3rd party," the common marriage, whatever ones religious or early upbringing shaped beliefs are. And still maintain a healthy separate individuals, both contributing, shaping, creating and nurturing the "3rd party." These things are not mutually incompatible. It does not remove the need to still maintain the separate individual, not dependent or placing ones core well being into the relationship. I made my own personal mistakes as I have shared where in my own work I placed a bit of my safety and the trust in the relationship, not in myself, and then from there contribute to the relationship.
Maintaining a healthy independent individual in no way diminishes a healthy strong relationship. There is a difference in trusting the 3rd entity in a bounded way than NEEDING the 3rd entity to be ok.
Regarding codependency and counterdepedency, I totally agree with what you write : in a marriage (or maybe any relationship), there is Me, You and US (the third person). And we have to consider what belongs to each member of the relationship. For me a healthy relationship needs to consider each person "needs" and "wants". For Christian believers, there is an analogy with the Trinity, God being the Father and the Son, & the Holy Spirit the Love relationship between them.
To go out of this dependency / fusion that is a symptom of unhealthy marriage, the way is independency & interdependency. Independency because each one of the relationship has to be whole, not seeking someone to "complete him". Interdependency, because there are things/activities for which we need/want to be 2.
And to use your great analogy on the container filling, each day we choose to fill the third entity with our love.
[...] I do not believe in "magical" ideas of love nor do I believe in religious definitions of marriage as a lifelong enforced bond. I believed that what my W and I shared was valuable because we CHOSE to share our lives for almost 23 years, whether married or not. Until the day she decided to no longer choose me.
Love is a choice. That was my belief before BD. Now, I have switched to another definition of Love, the quote that is in my signature. It is more close to unconditionnal love, I know. After BD i was lost, then with TIME I have found again my balance and I have found that I have many joys in my life that fullfill my love container. As the container is overflowing I am able to give love to other people (including W) without expecting return. For me giving love without expecting return is a liberation.
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French husband I am glad that sharing my story has given you some thoughts. I spent many hours myself reading other peoples stories and it really did help me early on to start understanding and deciding for myself. That is one of the many great things about finding a community like this.
And looking from the outside it seems you are firmly finding your footing. As terrible as something like this is all you can do decide how you will handle and experience this.
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Hello everyone. I wanted to post a quick thought that has been sitting with me for some reason for a few days now that I think may be of interest. What I am about to say is rather obvious, and it is said a lot, so its not meant to be insightful in itself. Rather it is the fact that after many years I am finding yet another depth to it that further solidifies this idea.
I am sure like many of you did I knew my wife was my best friend. I had a good deal of trust in her in many ways, I knew I could share almost anything, I could rely on her and she would always "have my back." So the biggest loss to me was that I lost my best friend. I have realized this from the early days. I also realized that she treated me terribly, specially in the first couple of years (and now on rare occasions).
What has been sitting with me is this: no friend or even acquaintance, or even a nice stranger, would EVER have done to me what she did, nor would have treated me as someone of such little value or worth nor cared so little about my well being. I feel I understand very well why she did and what kind of disordered state she was in, but that is not important. It is more the deep realization of how out of sync my expectations were with the reality of the situation in the early days, and how much that caused my emotional and rational mind to struggle and twist itself around. Looking at it from a distance it is SO clear to me now. If she had not been hiding what was going on, if this had been in any way normal, and we had drifted apart I would have had time to adjust to the new reality and to act accordingly. But it really was like being thrown off a cliff when you didn't even know there was a cliff.
So why do I share this? Well maybe if in the early days we could force ourselves to simply accept what is said, that there is no "us," and actually you are now dealing with someone who has absolute ZERO care for you, or at least act that way even if we struggle with it, it may help us avoid more hurt and damage.
Another way of saying acceptance is a key, and that reality is what it is, not we want it to be.
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What has been sitting with me is this: no friend or even acquaintance, or even a nice stranger, would EVER have done to me what she did, nor would have treated me as someone of such little value or worth nor cared so little about my well being.
Yes, which I suppose is quite instructive. In this way, it does kind of make it 'personal', like perhaps we are like an extension of the crisis person that needs to be amputated. Maybe a bad analogy, but the dynamics of this are extreme.
Your post is timely for me. I feel like I accepted very early that my H did not/could not care about me. I understood to have no expectations, and I feel that I accepted what had happened then too. What I still often struggle with is this complete volte face. That the person who cared so much about every aspect of one's life, suddenly becomes this cold stranger. I know it happened. I think, like you Marvin, I have a grasp of the whys, the psychology, but I still get hit with that bewildering feeling every now and again. I do quite well, saying 'who knows' to most of my questions, but I still cannot match up my warm, loving husband with the cold stranger he has seemingly become. How do others reconcile this?
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I do quite well, saying 'who knows' to most of my questions, but I still cannot match up my warm, loving husband with the cold stranger he has seemingly become. How do others reconcile this?
FWIW I completely get that. The "trick" I used is to think of my W as two people, the old W and the new W (I even referred to her in my head as the old (name) and new (name)). It seems simple but using this allowed me to separate the two incarnations that looked the same but were completely different. When I recall something or have a momentary pang to "share" something like I used to I direct to the "old W" incarnation. I believe its a little bit like holding the memory of someone who has died.
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Ah yes, it is helpful (although weird when the dead send you emails about splitting assets 8) ) (sorry, dark humour). In the earlier days, I did see my H as 'splitting' - I called his cold, perfunctory (email) self Mr Kit (as in Keep it Together) and then, there was the emotional him that I saw when we met in person. That was another level of confusion. But as I haven't seen him in person for over 6 months, I mainly get Mr Kit. I do draw parallels with aspects of Structural Disassociation (reading this theory made a lot of sense to me at the time. Now I am more circumspect). But, maybe this is where the 'dead' side is - in the part that had to be buried to keep going.
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if this had been in any way normal, and we had drifted apart I would have had time to adjust to the new reality and to act accordingly. But it really was like being thrown off a cliff when you didn't even know there was a cliff.
So why do I share this? Well maybe if in the early days we could force ourselves to simply accept what is said, that there is no "us," and actually you are now dealing with someone who has absolute ZERO care for you, or at least act that way even if we struggle with it, it may help us avoid more hurt and damage.
Another way of saying acceptance is a key, and that reality is what it is, not we want it to be.
FWIW, I feel this same way, BUT...you can't get there overnight. Just like it would have made more sense if we'd all drifted apart gradually as couples rather than being thrown into this traumatic event, we must gravitate toward acceptance in a way our brains can handle it. Healthy neural pathways are deliberately dug trenches, and it just takes the gift of time to get there. There's no way the very aware "me" of today could time travel back to 2011 and have a chance at all of convincing that earlier version of myself to let go before she was good and ready. And I'm glad for the lessons that it taught me that actually helped to get me here. The best we can do as those farther along the path is to present a good example of what's on the other side, once people are ready. And they will be. :)
In the earlier days, I did see my H as 'splitting' - I called his cold, perfunctory (email) self Mr Kit (as in Keep it Together) and then, there was the emotional him that I saw when we met in person.
I called my xH's new persona "Hoss" (he took on this uncharacteristic 'country'-fied bravado that well suited it). It helped immensely! It helped me stop analyzing whether the behaviors were normal or not. And it was funny. ;) A little dark humor went a long way (at least for me) to help start to take back my own life and not be so terrified all the time.
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Once the dust settles that is exactly what helped me. Look what they put us through and we don’t behave this way. The problem is that we are so anxious to change their direction that all their behavior just verifies to us that they have lost their mind. I think for me it wasn’t that I couldn’t accept something was terribly wrong, but wanting to save him from Himself and from destroying our family with more mistakes that could not be reversed.
Bottom line is that you cant. You cant save them. They have to save themselves and we have to let them go and make all the mistakes they are making and will make. We have to let them destroy the foundation of our families and destroy themselves. That’s the most important acceptance for me at least. You can’t save anyone but yourself. That is and was the number one thing I wish from the beginning I could have accepted.
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You can’t save anyone but yourself. That is and was the number one thing I wish from the beginning I could have accepted.
I just wanted to quote and emphasize this, I could not agree more. It is true in life just as much as it is in dealing with our MLCers.
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You can’t save anyone but yourself. That is and was the number one thing I wish from the beginning I could have accepted.
I just wanted to quote and emphasize this, I could not agree more. It is true in life just as much as it is in dealing with our MLCers.
Something I used to think about also is the reality of what the dynamic in our relationship would have been like if I were even able to “save” him. Contemplating that was actually an important step in my acceptance and moving forward, that understanding that a healthy partnership could never be achieved by me rescuing him from whatever inner turmoil I thought he was experiencing.
It’s not a dynamic I would accept in any relationship, having one person who “saved” the other. It sounds almost Disneyfied in a certain sense, and it’s the opposite of the kind of intentional connection I want and came to understand through this experience that I absolutely deserve. And since I cannot ask something of a partner that I could not give in return, the only thing I could do was move forward and do the work I needed to do on myself, for myself.
The best we can do as those farther along the path is to present a good example of what's on the other side, once people are ready. And they will be. :)
True, but I think there is also something to be said for those of us who’ve been there pointing out some of the ugly truth, even when it’s painful. R2T, I will never forget when you were my mentor (back when newbies were assigned mentors) and you said something to me the very day I found out about the OW that literally changed my mindset instantaneously. And I don’t think that you had the intention of doing that when you said it, but I needed to hear it. You said, and I quote, “he has recoupled.”
As simple as that. Three simple words that told me that my husband was in a new relationship. It was not a fantasy (unreal), he was not battling his way through a foggy tunnel, he was not playing out a movie role. My very real husband and his very real new girlfriend were in a very real relationship. Reality. It really did bite. Hard.
I wasn’t ready to hear it, but by the time I was ready to hear it, I wouldn’t have needed to hear it as badly. So I am very glad that those who came before me were there to help me see and accept reality.
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Once the dust settles that is exactly what helped me. Look what they put us through and we don’t behave this way. The problem is that we are so anxious to change their direction that all their behavior just verifies to us that they have lost their mind. I think for me it wasn’t that I couldn’t accept something was terribly wrong, but wanting to save him from Himself and from destroying our family with more mistakes that could not be reversed.
Bottom line is that you cant. You cant save them. They have to save themselves and we have to let them go and make all the mistakes they are making and will make. We have to let them destroy the foundation of our families and destroy themselves. That’s the most important acceptance for me at least. You can’t save anyone but yourself. That is and was the number one thing I wish from the beginning I could have accepted.
I still have trouble accepting there is something wrong with my wife. I was in denial for months and months before I realized it probably was her and not me. When someone has been a certain way for 28 years it's very hard to change your view of who and what they are.
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It's been a while since I posted anything, because like most of us past a point nothing really changes. I am living my life, nothing to complain about, and my "ex" is just cycling in her current "state" which is better than early days, but nothing like what she was, or what I would say is content. Still bouts of a lot of anxiety, inability to remember, focus, jumps around, etc.
I tend to catch up and read on old and new stories, but I rarely post mainly because what I offer doesn't seem to be very helpful. But I can see why, I think like most people in year 7 or 8 all of this is now a certain distance in the past. Which is really a very different perspective from the "early days." I used to hear and really take in what "old timers" would offer in the early days, but I could see it was something that would someday come.
Reason for this post is something my "ex" sent yesterday that made me pause and think. I am still in touch with her on a semi-regular basis. We still share our main house (but not at the same time). She sent some random texts, and one that essentially said something like why don't I marry a certain person for certain logistics. I had to pause because only reason I have not pushed or finalized a divorce is because I do not believe she is in a state of mind where she could carry though the process. She has to make notes about having lunch at a certain hour, I can't imagine what the process of going through a divorce would be like. If she is hinting at finalizing divorce and we can do it easily I will be more than happy to do so. If she was joking I am not sure she understands or realizes that we are still technically married (I know it seems strange, but with the radical rewriting of all things it is not out of the realm of possibility).
I am at a point that honestly the intent really does not matter, I'll just play it out as it comes. But it made me pause for a minute and realize that even this far out, and living a completely separate life and completely detached, it still "caught" me for a minute. If this is a chance to finalize our relationship it would actually makes some things easier and there would be no loss, yes some part of me still saw this as one more "final" step.
I share this to say that wherever you are in your process don't be hard on yourself if little things "get" to you. Some of you are actually impacted by your MLCers actions and words in a tangible and sometimes dramatic ways. Be kind to yourself. I was taken a bit back that I would have ANY reaction at this point, even if it was incredibly small. Even though I am beyond ready to take that last step.
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Some of you are actually impacted by your MLCers actions and words in a tangible and sometimes dramatic ways. Be kind to yourself. I was taken a bit back that I would have ANY reaction at this point, even if it was incredibly small. Even though I am beyond ready to take that last step.
I do think that it is reasonable to be affected many years later, perhaps forever. They were a big part of our lives and the ending of our marriages were not of our choosing.
If the LBSer chooses to have some contact with them, there might be times when it sucks to hear about their lives.
I have stated and I believe it to be true in my case, that contact has been good for my family and I am very much at peace and accept this is who he is now...what I get caught in is sometimes forgetting this person is not the man I knew and loved and the memories of who he was before, who we were....can mess with my head still.
Having feelings or responses to things we see or hear about them doesn't mean we have not progressed in our own lives.
Thanks for sharing.
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Wise words, Marvin. I think the impact of things is not related to how detached we are (we can be detached and still be impacted but not sidelined) but rather the affect is personal to each of us and our own situations, and maybe runs deeper than first appears - at least for me. I have no feelings of "love" or "hate" for my former H, but when the day comes when he reappears after completely vanishing, I will not be unaffected. It doesn't mean I'm not healed and takes nothing away from the tremendous amount of work I've done since he left.
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I tend to catch up and read on old and new stories, but I rarely post mainly because what I offer doesn't seem to be very helpful.
Well, as you may have been fishing ;D I for one find your post incredibly helpful. Thought-provoking is a term I'd use.
She sent some random texts, and one that essentially said something like why don't I marry a certain person for certain logistics. I had to pause because only reason I have not pushed or finalized a divorce is because I do not believe she is in a state of mind where she could carry though the process. She has to make notes about having lunch at a certain hour, I can't imagine what the process of going through a divorce would be like. If she is hinting at finalizing divorce and we can do it easily I will be more than happy to do so. If she was joking I am not sure she understands or realizes that we are still technically married (I know it seems strange, but with the radical rewriting of all things it is not out of the realm of possibility).
And speaking of fishing.... I read this (just my reading) as her fishing for info. For what, I would have no clue. But it seems sort of removed enough from emotion, by being related to logistics, as to not expose any emotional motivation on her part. Is she asking you whether you will marry again? Yes, she kind of is. But by 'de-personalizing' it by making it a practical matter, she throws the net wide for a range of potential responses. With the question she posed, one might answer 'heck, no, I will never marry again' or 'no, you will always be my wife' Or 'no I am planning to marry Z' etc etc. It works as a non-threatening, low pressure, question IMO. I don't know your W, obviously, but I imagine most people motivated to initiate divorce would frame it another way - even if indirectly.
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Thanks xyzcf, Nas, KayDee.
KayDee, I am not a fishing kind of guy (both in terms of interactions and in actual fish!). I meant more I don't respond on other threads with thoughts I may have in what people are facing, as generally it is not helpful to where they are in the moment. I continue to post on my thread as an "archive" hoping others find it helpful or something they can refer to (as I did with so many other posters here myself). I do appreciate the feedback!
Honestly right now if we could sit down in a reasonable way and work out the mechanics of a divorce it would only take a 30 day filing where I live. In practical terms it would make no difference to me, and in the past when I brought up the idea in one of her more out of control discussions she literally said "well I am never going to get married again and neither are you so there is no reason to get a divorce." Yes prime example of projection, insane clown logic, and disordered thinking. But there are practical reasons for HER to get a divorce as it would allow her the option of marrying OM and be able to move to his home country without constant visa issues. And yet...
I always want to reiterate that what I have seen in her since her fracture is that she exists as a incoherent set of fears, needs, desires, drives and none of it is held together with a functioning self. So nothing she says is stable or permanent nor is usually well thought out. I think this disordered state is one of the hardest things for the LBS to understand and accept (well because it is disordered and makes no sense). And is the source of the constant contradictory and confusing behaviours and words. I have a feeling she was kind of making a half joke and did not occur to her that the response may go into difficult territory.
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I don't have much to update or say these days, but every so often a thought or observation pops up that I feel like may be useful to share.
As I follow along here in various threads I occasionally see the idea of "unconditional love" pop up. And I personally always am a little surprised by the use of that term in adult relationships. I personally believe all adult relationships are conditional. I do not mean conditional as transactional, which sometimes is what comes up for people when I say this. Transactional is "if you have no use for me then bye bye." Conditional means there are boundaries, limits, and assessment of whether a relationship is healthy or generative to both parties.
I think this is easier to separate when our loves ones have a physical condition. I personally would never abandon someone who I cared for because they needed physical or emotional support. I would have to carefully balance their needs to make sure I am not harmed. That is martyrdom and I do not believe in that. I am happy to put in effort, care, energy and give up things that are not critical to help someone. The tricky line usually is when that switches over to harming oneself (long term, not in short stretches) in order to help someone else in an adult relationship. I think we are sometimes conditioned to believe this is "noble" or "healthy" and for me it is part of the myth of love.
The harder part of this is if someone is somehow changing in a psychological sense. Obviously this covers a lot of things. Easy example is if someone is struggling with depression but they are the same foundational person they deserve and need support from their loved ones. It gets trickier and trickier when we start looking at things that may represent a "foundational" change. Whatever we call "MLC" usually includes depression, anxiety and other conditions that I personally would not consider deal breakers if I care for someone. But some of the things are really structural personality changes, and if we can accept that then I view them as real conditions. The person we cared for may not quite exist as we wish them to exist.
Its a hard pill to swallow as they say, but we have to live in reality as it is, not as we wish it to be.
To be clear this does not apply to a parent child relationship.
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I agree. There is no such thing as unconditional love in the broad sense. If there is, then it is a very unhealthy love. We all have boundaries and non acceptables!!!I I definitely showed my XH unconditional love in many ways, but then I questioned why?? Why do I feel this way, why is he lying? Why am I accepting so little while giving so much?? When we put someone continuously over our own well being and at the cost of our own values it is definitely not unconditional love anymore. It becomes abuse. Not all abuse leaves visible marks.
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Absolutely agree. I should copy the reply I just put on the links and articles thread and put it here. 😉
I think what I see around me often is the term “unconditional love” being used synonymously with “forever, no matter what” or as a proxy for attachment. The best way I can express it right now is that viewing anything as forever almost makes it so rigid that it diminishes it, if that makes sense.
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RCR's articles contain a section entitled "The Unconditionals" which include Grace, Agape and Forgiveness. She defines agape as:
Agapé is love in all circumstances; it is absent of feeling--the rational assessment of value--thus without judgment or condition. It is a freely given gift, soft yet firm, an action borne of choice, and devoid of the uncontrolled and chaotic energies of emotion. It has no requirements of the love-object, being independent of lovable qualities or merit and exists regardless of circumstances; agapé does not require a person to like its object; it does not require one to lie across the doormat, allowing abuse. Such actions enable poor and abusive choices and behaviors. Yet agapé is love amidst wise and poor choices and behaviors.
https://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/self-focus_unconditionals_agape.html
Like everything, words have different meanings for people based upon our belief systems. In the Christian faith, we are commanded to "Love one another as I have loved you' and that includes your enemies and those who hurt you.
Who we are, what our FOO life was like all impact how we perceive love and how we give love.
I am doing some inner work, to do with aging and the health issues I am facing and recently came across the 7 archetypes. Not surprisingly, I turned up as the Mother Archetype...we also have parts of the other archetypes in our makeup that might be more or less pronounced at different points in our lives.
The Mother archetype:
"You are a kind and compassionate soul- nothing matters more to you than the people you love...let unconditional love be at the root of everything you do. How can you make the world a better place today? Pour love into everything you do. Move with love, speak with love, touch with love."
Such fascinating stuff and if I am to embrace who I am, then it is of no surprise of my concern, empathy and compassion for the MLCer.
I also am convinced (and I know that others are not) that their crisis is a pathological condition.
"Unconditional love" or whatever word you use to describe this action can be detrimental if the LBSer thinks that they can use this to bring the MLCer back. It is NOT a tool to manipulate or coerce. It doesn't mean that you accept abuse or put yourself in any kind of harm.
I have found that it gives me space and has allowed me to let go of fear of being together, which remains essential to our family's wellbeing. It is a choice and cannot coexist with bitterness, anger, or unforgiveness.
In other words, it is something that brings peace and calm into my life.
But as I said, each one of us is different. Understanding our own inner world can give us immense help in coping with the world, the broken relationships, wars, political craziness, racism...so much is contradictory to the concept of "unconditional love"...my actions towards my husband are also the actions I try to live in all aspects of my life.
"Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. Love never fails"
1 Corinthians 13:4-7
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I think it is important to define what "love" means to each person. To me love as a word is overused, used incorrectly and can have many different incarnations. For example to me feeling "love" towards humanity is better defined as having empathy, to see outside of ones own self referential lens, to be able to hold the feeling and needs of someone else WITHOUT confusing or combining it with ones own. So the idea of "Christian love" as I understand it is closest to this idea. Because I believe if we can truly do this then we will be moved to action, to help, to provide, to care.
Part of what I have seen in myself is that we are flooded with a mythical version of love in many forms. I don't mean there is no kernel of truth in what we repeat as a story, rather it has become a "Disneyfied" version of the core idea. And I have always found absolutes and simplified definitions are almost never correct (see what I did there? ;) )
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;D
When I read you question "what does love mean" my head took me immediately to the Hollywood quote from Love Story "love means never having to say you are sorry" really? To me that is not love.
Of course our world does see love "Disneyfied" as well as disposable.
I also read and recoil alot from the word "karma" being used on HS as I would get no delight of something bad happening to him, or anyone else.
Words do affect us and they apply to our world view. How we define those words will influence our actions and thoughts.
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Absolutely agree. I should copy the reply I just put on the links and articles thread and put it here. 😉
Here you go
I’ve always found a little bit of tension between the ideas of unconditional love and “love is a choice.” The second one I believe in. Choice is a key component in going in to a relationship. No one has ever tripped over a homeless person on the street and said “oh no, I’ve fallen into unconditional love because I have no choice over who I love and this is the person the universe has sent me to love.“ That’s a snarky comment of course, and coming a little bit from my own wounding, but the point is that in choosing a partner, people look for certain criteria to be met. That alone is a condition under which we choose to start a relationship.
I remember having a conversation with my first therapist after BD, a few months after, and I remember telling her “I want to say out loud that I don’t love him but for some reason I feel like that makes me very very bad person.” I was afraid to stop “loving” him, actually, because something twisted and tangled up with trauma bonding had me believing that loving him would bring me love.
But that’s not how it works. We do choose who we love, but we don’t get to choose who loves us. And that makes us feel so helpless sometimes that we forget the choice is always at least partially ours.
Choice is always there. There’s choice going in, choice all the way through, and choice coming out, but people somehow deny themselves that conscious choice beyond the initial choice at the beginning. And I actually think making individual choice a key component is empowering and can strengthen relationships with others, but also with ourselves (especially if we’re healing from trauma. Imagine if I had just realized a lot earlier and I had chosen myself instead of him).
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I’ve found this to be a part of my own LBS untangling in working out what ‘love’ means to me in all its’ different forms.
And it’s a deeply personal process that is often linked to all kinds of other issues - our experience of family perhaps, our faith in some cases, what marriage means to us, the other kinds of love we see and experience in our lives.
Having a dead father and a mother removed by dementia, as well as a vanished spouse, provided some interesting juxtapositions for me tbh. How I could love a dead father quite easily even if he wasn’t here, but found it much harder to work out how to love a mentally absent mother who is still physically here but I find it painful to see. What, if anything, was left of my surprisingly deep love for my former husband who had done many things that were quite cruel. How I might wish I could do love as I once did but also had to accept that I didn’t. Reminding myself that just bc I did not have certain kinds of love in my life, or that this kind of love hadn’t turned out to be as I thought, did not necessarily mean that this kind of love did not exist in the world. Tbh, Marvin, I am not even sure I would say that parent-child love is a given let alone unconditional….i know plenty of folks, either as kids or parents, for whom that is not so. I have also witnessed quite a few examples of what I would see as something quite close to ‘unconditional love’ and found it a rather hopeful, joyous thing to see.
How it ‘should be’ or how we ‘wish it to be’ (as per Corinthians) is not always how it is, is it?
And of course, as always with these things, the underlying question underneath the questions, why does it matter to me? And what, if anything, do I do with whatever I conclude?
Very personal process imho. Maybe a real example of ‘it’s not you, it’s me’, ha ha.
I suppose I wonder if both things can be sort of true at the same time….if most of us love with some underpinning conditions AND if/how/who we love can also be a choice? My best sense is that I see love as a thing that strengthens and grows things and people, rather than weakens and destroys them, so if the experience feels like the latter, that usually is a clue to me that at best it’s love mixed up with some other stuff. Or not love (as I see it) but need or attachment or obligation or something else.
I suppose I also think that pushing love in the face of someone who has said or done things to show that they do not want your love is probably not love to me (although I did it for a long time lol) That accepting someone’s wish to sever a connection or remove you from their lives might also be a kind of love?
There was a young man in Gaza, killed a couple of days ago by shrapnel from a bomb, who decided some months ago that he was going to grow things every day where he was and posted online about it. Bc it represented life and hope and a few vegetables to feed people. That’s what unconditional love looks like to me in practice, I think……a small thing in practice that is actually a rather big thing.
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I have always struggled with the word “love” I agree it is so loosely used. People tell me, love you. Love ya…. Like hello! I mean, no way they love me. Fond
Of, like etc. yes. I use love for my kids and grandkids and a few, but not all of my nieces and none of my nephews. I use it when I feel it. When there loss would be significant in my life. When their presence makes a difference. My parents never told me they loved me until I was older. My mother started using it very late in life before her death. Almost like she realized she should have, but it still lacked the depth of meaning. The last time I saw my Dad before he died he told me he loved me. I felt it. I knew he always did, but never could express it. Im intentional when I use it and I mean it.
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How interesting.......
It sounds like some big questions and inner work......
I can say (for me)...... does unconditional love exist? Yes. Without a doubt. No question about it. Does this mean "most" people know or understand what this is? Absolutely not..... which is very sad. After all, how does someone know what it is, if they have never experienced it, were never taught it, never "seen" it?
Furthering this, an LBS trying to apply something they themselves don't understand can be discouraged and then resultingly question the concept of "love" since it doesn't appear to "hold". This would be even more true and trying as time passes and more things are revealed to be temporary. In this context the question of eternal and undying love would also naturally be questioned.
Real love isn't a Disneyfied love..... that is just a perversion of what love actually is. It is not the ideal at all. If anything, what they portray is just amplified infatuation supposedly lasting forever. HA!!! ;D
What is love? Love isn't just joy and happiness, peace, stability and safety....... inside of Love is also longing, sometimes pain, and always hope.
Love is the rejoicing of good in someone's life, and the hurt and concern over the bad which destroys people.
In all of it is patience, and the desire that in the end...... someone will be sorted out and fine..... even absent our knowledge or presence.
In a romantic setting, love is the seeing of one another..... because we all hide pieces, and to show someone our true self is to invite an opportunity for criticism, scorn, rejection, and then wounds.
It is love that shows kindness & patience to our worst bits, and hopes that they will be better...... and assists in that endeavor with genuine affection.
It is NOT our strength that needs love, it is our weakness..... and our love is not meant to glorify a projection of someone else, but instead the core, which is beautiful and flawed.
How many believe in their heart they are beyond love, beyond redemption, and unworthy of love? Not just MLC'ers, LBS's, or troubled souls..... everyone has this at one point or another... or all along.
To question love is to admit that it is needed. Many will never know what it is, experience what is it, and consequently not know how to give it.
It is not a trinket to be bartered or traded, but it is valuable beyond measure. It's given freely, or not at all.
It has no conditions. It has no bounds. It is the only thing which lasts throughout a life and past death.
Love does not judge. Love is gentle, and kind, and forgives.
It lives in a soft heart.... and finds no place in a hard heart.
-SS
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Beautifully said SS. I was hoping you would come by.
The love you have shown and continue to show your wife is an excellent example of unconditional love for you truly want her to be well.
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That was really thought-provoking, SS, thank you x
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Well I guess from some of the posts here that obviously the need to hold to an illusory and self reenforcing loop about unconditional love is indeed very strong. It’s almost as if there is a need to reject examination because it threatens something.
I personally have seen more healthy and effective compassion, caring, growth, nurturing and humanity from people in relationships and professionals who clearly practice bounded adult love than in situations that have involved “unconditional” love. I would even go as far as to say that “unconditional” love is really much more rooted in a kind of very self centered need and is not really about the other person. If I’m unbounded your needs and mine are by definition the same. I can only truly “see” and honor another person when I can “see” them outside of my own needs.
And honestly it is a form of hubris to suggest a deeper understanding rather than a simplistic view of love is because, to paraphrase, “you just haven’t experienced it.” I naively believed in “unconditional love” until I matured in my views and gained a much deeper understanding of humanity and emotions. The truest form of love I have received and hopefully have given have been since this understanding.
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That was really thought-provoking, SS, thank you x
To be clear, this was not about my xh or MLC but about finding ways to love with advanced dementia in the moment.
I respect other peoples’ right to see through their own lens and choose as they choose (which of course includes choosing the effects that come with that). And I don’t see love as a competitive sport where some ‘win’ medals and others don’t lol. However my own pov some years on regarding intimate relationships - and certainly wrt my xh - is probably closer to Marvin’s and Nas’s take.
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To be clear, this was not about my xh or MLC but about finding ways to love with advanced dementia in the moment.
I can only imagine what kind of challenges and feelings this must bring up. It would require a kind of "selfless" love depending on what is going on with dementia at the moment. And maybe even something akin to how a parent loves their children, even if the relationship is reversed as we deal with aging parents. It embodies the idea of a bounded mature love, where it may be at times hard to even get anything in return. My partner works with dementia populations under care and I have learned from what she has shared from her masters work and experience.
And to address an earlier post: when I talk about "parent child unconditional love" I am talking about the ideal form. As you so correctly pointed out this is not what always happens in the real world, and there are giant deviations from this. But I hope that if parents are self aware and well informed they provide a very good version of that to allow children to develop in a healthy manner. But perfection is not needed. In some ways I see a lot of people still searching for some version of the child state love even in their adult relationships.
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Thanks for this very interesting discussion regarding love, that is really inspiring for me to read your different comment and visions
As anyone can guess it reading my signature, I am in the "unconditionnal love" team, and in the same time I also believe that an healthy relationship means boundaries and limits.
In my LBS interior path, after BD I have reached the conclusion that the true sense of my existence is to learn to love as God loves us. So, how does God love us ? I have read, and I believe that God does not give us what we want, but what we need.
So for me to love as God loves means to give to the people I love what they need. And (as per my signature) to give without expecting return.
Then the question for me becomes : how to know what the people need ? I mean, what they really need. The answer is not easy, and I feel humble because often I don't know what people around me really need. To understand it, I have to really listen to them and try to understand them. Accept and respect who they are.
As it is written here, the best example for unconditionnal love is the "ideal" parent child relationship.
It is easier to undersand children, for sure. They need care, attention, a safe space to grow. And they need boundaries, they need limits. Who has tried to educate children without giving boundaries ? I believe those children will be very unhappy. For me, giving boundaries to the children is part of loving them.
The bible is a great love story between God and His people, we can see that God is setting up limits and boundaries. And God forgives also. In the story of the prodigal son, the father loves unconditionnaly his child, he gives the share of the estate without expecting return. The father "lets go" the ungrateful child, that is a big act of love. And in the same text, there are limits : the other share of the estate is a limit, it is out of the reach of the prodigal son : everything I have is yours, says the father to the eldest son (who is a bit bitter). There are likely other limits that are implicit in this text : it is not possible to have a dissipated, lustful and squandering life in front of the father. That is why the prodigal son goes to a distant country.
Now, what about our spouses ? Clearly we are not in a parent-child relationship. And I believe I can continue to love my wife even she is in the way to become soon my ex wife. I am not sure to know all the needs from W currently because she doesn't confide much, but I strongly believe she needs to go on her own path, and I give to her this freedom.
One other word about love. It is written "love your neighbour as yoursef". And I try to do this. My understanding of this verse is that the beginning of love is loving myself, knowing myself (gnothi seauton) and understanding my needs. In my LBS's path since BD, as other LBSs in the forum, I have progressed on the love for all other people around me by beginning a work on myself and by increasing my daily prayer time. Working on myself is the greatest gift I have made to myself.
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FrenchHusband thank you for sharing your very thoughtful views on this. For me you have captured perfectly the complexities of what I would call selfless (rather than unconditional) love. I have always tried to care for and be there for my wife, friends, and others without expecting things in return. But as you pointed out we can not truly know, understand or own the choices, feeling and consequences of decisions for others.
I think a lot of us have had to take a careful look inside ourselves and hopefully find more insight and wisdom about things we used to just "assume" we understood well. And as you said "working on myself is the greatest gift I have made to myself." I think a lot of us share in that view. And I would just like to add its a gift that also gives to the ones around us, as we become more self aware I believe we become much more able to care for others in a selfless way.
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Its funny how there are layers or perspective and clarity that solidify as time goes on. I wanted to share the latest one.
When everything blew up, when I went from having a very close, sharing, loving relationship with my best friend to losing it all I was completely floored for a while. When I started to find some footing, followed the advice given, sought therapy and starting the hard work of rebuilding I started to discover over time how I had gotten to where I was.
And the truth is there was not much about the relationship that was wrong pre-BD, there were no "cracks" in our lives, etc. But I had really put most of my well being into the relationship as I have shared in the past. Over time I have reclaimed my safety, caring and meaning and make sure they come from WITHIN no matter how strong my external relationships are.
Still today I can see even more clearly how much I had put my well being into someone else, into OUR relationship. And today it seems a bit shocking and in some ways naive of me. I do not say that with any negative connotation, but with a lot of empathy. But what the h**k was I thinking?
Maybe that is part of the hard part of a good relationship, to maintain all the positives without "falling in." And if something does happen to let go of that old conception of what we believed was "right."
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Maybe that is part of the hard part of a good relationship, to maintain all the positives without "falling in."
Raise your hand if you’re sick of hearing me talk about non attachment. ;) In relationships, it’s often misinterpreted, but partly it’s just what you said above. It’s not indifference or avoidance or emotional detachment/not caring. It’s really just enjoying a human connection without looking for it to provide validation or identity or approval. It’s no attachment to outcome. We know people are free to leave at any time, for their own reasons, we have that freedom as well, because we’re not bound by an outcome or a need to cling to the identity or status or whatever we made the relationship provide us. This applies to all relationships, romantic, platonic, whatever.
For obvious reasons to anyone who has read any of my posts over the years, I became attracted to exploring this when I first read something about non attachment being “not trying to get anything from anybody.” That caught me because it’s opposite of every single example I had in life and every single experience I had with relationships, be it family, friends or love relationships. As I delved deeper overtime, I found more and more that it fit with my worldview and how I want to show up in relationships. That’s just my half of the equation though. Obviously we only have control over what we bring to a partnership and we have to have the courage to trust the other person is honest and has good intentions, but I think the other thing that non-attachment allows us that makes it appealing to me is the ability to better trust our choices, allow for more accurate continued assessment, and more easily pivot when it makes sense for us or to bounce back from disappointment or even grief.
The things we learn from a BD, right?
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Well as they say life keeps rolling along. I am mainly posting this update for everyone who is still looking for "whats ahead." This is one story.
So I am now firmly 7.5 years from first big BD. For the past 2 years my wife, who left after 2nd BD claiming she is never ever coming back home, has been living pretty much back at the house (and I have been staying elsewhere). About a month ago she let me know that she has decide to move (again), this time to Colorado. She claims its at least for six months but probably longer. She did ACTUALLY thank me for letting her stay at the house (which is new).
When I got back I found she has moved almost all her stuff with her (which is good, the house was packed with things). So I get to move back in and start setting things back up. What is funny is that she moved some heavy desks and other items she had bought (which would have been much easier to replace as they were not very expensive). But the amusing parts was when I realized she had taken the electric kettle and most of the pots and pans. Let me make clear the kettle was a basic Amazon one, and the pots are 20+ years old and really past prime.
What does any of it mean? Nothing, absolutely nothing. Trust me. This is the new "happy." I hope she find some calm and settles in in Colorado for a while (at least DON'T COME BACK this way!). She is probably around 30% better than she was when this all started, but she is not happy. And she is not ok. And she is still mostly self absorbed.
Oh and the day she was supposed to leave I got a text that she may not be gone when I get back, because she had packed the moving van and then lost the keys to said moving van. I would say I was surprised, but that would be a lie.
I'll close by saying don't read too much into anything that happens, even as they cycle better or worse, closer and further. If there is real change you will know it. Sadly my wife is settled into a new normal that I fear will never change. And I say that for her sake, I moved on with my life a long long time ago....
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Appreciate your update! You sound so strong, full of clarity and goodwill, I feel a glow just reading your accounts. I know you don't expect anything, but I truly believe an objective measure of your ex-wife's well-being is her consciously appreciating all that you have done for her. It is the greatest gift anyone can give IMHO. You are an exemplary being. Much bliss to you always.
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Well, it sounds as if you are fine, Marvin, and that you have been able to meet the goal I think you set for yourself of being some kind of friend without being overly embroiled.
I wonder what’s in Colorado? Odd time of year to relocate there I’d think. Wasn’t she living in Italy before? OM bitten the dust? New OM with free snowshoes lol? Who knows. But as long as all it cost you was a few old pots and pans, that sounds fine. It is her life and path to plow, after all and you sound happily busy with your own.
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Thanks Treasur. I think most of us know at this point the answer to "what does it all mean? What has changed?" Answer is it means nothing, nothing has changed, the players may swap, the setting may be changed, but the play remains the same. I am sure OM is still around, but he was never really the issue. Yes, she has been to Italy, Norway, Colorado, NY, home, and who knows where else honestly. I am sure there is just that perfect place that will make things ok.
What should be very clear that even when she can just put herself first (being selfish), be free (she never was captive), be with whoever she wants (friends, OM) nothing really changes.
I can't imagine what it would be like to still have attachment to her well being, or if I had not stopped trying to dance with the crazy within the first year. Or if I had put my life on hold "waiting for them to exit the tunnel."
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Hello everyone from the edge of year eight of the post MLC life. Hope all of you had a good, fine, or at least tolerable holiday season depending on where you are in your journey.
I have been quietly reading what everyone is sharing, but not posting much as partly I feel there has been so much wisdom shared here by many people over the years that its all here for us to take it in, but when we are ready and willing. And as other always say its a process that is different for all of us. I just like to add that isn't a reason not to be constantly striving to get our footing and let go of the past and try to create a new future, whether its one we imagine, want or even may find desirable. Its not possible to live in the past, only to suffer in it.
The non update is that my MLCer is cycling as always and seems more anxious and a little less well off lately. But I have seen this back and forth for a few years now, so nothing to see. I still hope for her sake that one day something makes her seek real help, but unfortunately I do not see much hope. As I have shared I have come to the same conclusion that many before have come to, that this is not a "journey" or a "process" but a shattering destruction. Some may find a way out, but most will not.
I only say this as it may help people in the early days who are open to the idea decide better how to live, whether they choose to stand or walk away. My life today looks nothing like it did eight years ago. some of it is because I no longer share one with a person I was sharing it with for 23 years ago, but some of it is because I "grew up" more and really internalized what I had always kind of known. Nothing is given, nothing is certain, plans are just something so we can see how we deviate and life flows in ways we can not predict or control. Having gone through the difficult experience of losing someone to this event has only clarified and further pushed me to live with this knowledge. And in a strange way it is more comforting than terrifying.
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Beautifully said Marvin.
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Agree with Madluv,
Well said.
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Hello everyone from the edge of year eight of the post MLC life. Hope all of you had a good, fine, or at least tolerable holiday season depending on where you are in your journey.
I have been quietly reading what everyone is sharing, but not posting much as partly I feel there has been so much wisdom shared here by many people over the years that its all here for us to take it in, but when we are ready and willing. And as other always say its a process that is different for all of us. I just like to add that isn't a reason not to be constantly striving to get our footing and let go of the past and try to create a new future, whether its one we imagine, want or even may find desirable. Its not possible to live in the past, only to suffer in it.
The non update is that my MLCer is cycling as always and seems more anxious and a little less well off lately. But I have seen this back and forth for a few years now, so nothing to see. I still hope for her sake that one day something makes her seek real help, but unfortunately I do not see much hope. As I have shared I have come to the same conclusion that many before have come to, that this is not a "journey" or a "process" but a shattering destruction. Some may find a way out, but most will not.
I only say this as it may help people in the early days who are open to the idea decide better how to live, whether they choose to stand or walk away. My life today looks nothing like it did eight years ago. some of it is because I no longer share one with a person I was sharing it with for 23 years ago, but some of it is because I "grew up" more and really internalized what I had always kind of known. Nothing is given, nothing is certain, plans are just something so we can see how we deviate and life flows in ways we can not predict or control. Having gone through the difficult experience of losing someone to this event has only clarified and further pushed me to live with this knowledge. And in a strange way it is more comforting than terrifying.
I don't believe that most will ever "exit" or change really unless they really hit rock bottom at some point in their lives and even then. They are who they are. I truly feel sad that my beautiful wife may never find true happiness in life. The most truthful thing I think she said the last time saw her was "I'm trying to find happiness".
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The most truthful thing I think she said the last time saw her was "I'm trying to find happiness".
Happiness in any form (not the fake MLC version) is transitory, contentment and gratitude are more permanent and something solid. And these can only be found internally and by examining ourselves, they can not be gained by any external factor. It’s something most of us should be striving for whatever our life circumstances are. People who fall into “MLC” seem to not have any or very little understanding of this and substitute external “happy” like an addict who replaces it with chemicals. Neither can fix internal pain and anxiety.
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Happiness in any form (not the fake MLC version) is transitory, contentment and gratitude are more permanent and something solid. And these can only be found internally and by examining ourselves, they can not be gained by any external factor. It’s something most of us should be striving for whatever our life circumstances are. People who fall into “MLC” seem to not have any or very little understanding of this and substitute external “happy” like an addict who replaces it with chemicals. Neither can fix internal pain and anxiety.
I could not agree more.
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The most truthful thing I think she said the last time saw her was "I'm trying to find happiness".
Happiness in any form (not the fake MLC version) is transitory, contentment and gratitude are more permanent and something solid. And these can only be found internally and by examining ourselves, they can not be gained by any external factor. It’s something most of us should be striving for whatever our life circumstances are. People who fall into “MLC” seem to not have any or very little understanding of this and substitute external “happy” like an addict who replaces it with chemicals. Neither can fix internal pain and anxiety.
Wow Marvin--8 years! I think you are very right...I watch the cycles of thinking something is the solution, and then heading downhill again, and it is sad. Sometimes I can "see" what he thinks the solution is, and other times I can't, but I can tell that there is something. With each cycle we seem to have an episode of High blood pressure spikes. I am helpless to do anything, but do worry that he is going to end up having a heart attack or stroke as a result. All the running gets him nowhere. I used to pray for a resolution to all of this--and I still do, but more often I pray for peace. Peace for both of us from this turmoil.
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Thank you all for your comments and observations.
I have been noticing something that I thought I would share. As I read the reactions and feelings of people earlier in this process I started to notice something about where I am. Like many others here I went through a lot of stages in the early days in what I wanted to happen. Obviously it started with "this will all go away and we will go back to where we were," to "I will try to be supportive," to "I am living my life and we will see where we end up," to, for me, fully accepting that there really is no realistic chance that my MLCer will be ok. It was easier because by that time I had accepted, separated and had built a life for myself and was no longer in most ways engaged with her ups and down and way past reading any "tea leaves" in her fluctuating behavior.
The part I am now noticing is at various points if you had asked me what I wanted to hear from her the answer would have been different. Obviously early on it would have been words about realization of what was going on (and to be fair she had some painful lucid moments where she would refer to this). A bit later I would have wanted to hear desire for some kind of reconnection. Later on I would have said all I want to hear is an apology for what what she did.
I am now noticing I honestly do not care or would want any of those things. I expect nothing, I want very little and there are no hooks into the past life we shared for 23 years. But the only thing that would be nice, if it ever happened, is simple acknowledgment. Acknowledgment that we did share a great life together for a long time, and that for whatever reason she threw it away. I have no judgement about that action, I understand that it wasn't about me, she was throwing herself away in a lot of ways. And I do not need apology or blame or responsibility. Just simple acknowledgment of a common reality. Not sure what it means but there you are.
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Thank you all for your comments and observations.
I have been noticing something that I thought I would share. As I read the reactions and feelings of people earlier in this process I started to notice something about where I am. Like many others here I went through a lot of stages in the early days in what I wanted to happen. Obviously it started with "this will all go away and we will go back to where we were," to "I will try to be supportive," to "I am living my life and we will see where we end up," to, for me, fully accepting that there really is no realistic chance that my MLCer will be ok. It was easier because by that time I had accepted, separated and had built a life for myself and was no longer in most ways engaged with her ups and down and way past reading any "tea leaves" in her fluctuating behavior.
The part I am now noticing is at various points if you had asked me what I wanted to hear from her the answer would have been different. Obviously early on it would have been words about realization of what was going on (and to be fair she had some painful lucid moments where she would refer to this). A bit later I would have wanted to hear desire for some kind of reconnection. Later on I would have said all I want to hear is an apology for what what she did.
I am now noticing I honestly do not care or would want any of those things. I expect nothing, I want very little and there are no hooks into the past life we shared for 23 years. But the only thing that would be nice, if it ever happened, is simple acknowledgment. Acknowledgment that we did share a great life together for a long time, and that for whatever reason she threw it away. I have no judgement about that action, I understand that it wasn't about me, she was throwing herself away in a lot of ways. And I do not need apology or blame or responsibility. Just simple acknowledgment of a common reality. Not sure what it means but there you are.
This post really resonated with me.
I feel like I’ve been on the exact same track of emotions as you’ve been. Except in the last 6 months. Things have really accelerated. To a point where I just don’t care anymore.
We finally got divorced a month ago. It was an extremely arduous process but I managed to get things over the finish line. It took 3 years post BD to get here with her MLC/limerance starting about 6 months before that. Low energy stay at home wallower with fantasy alienator. But don’t let the low energy part fool you. The amount of destruction she’s left in her wake is VERY real. Relationships. Family. Kids. Financial. Emotional. Psychological. Forget my heart. The other devastation is unforgivable. So many parts of ours lives have been irreparably ruined. And the vindictiveness. She inflicted pain that was completely unnecessary. Because she could. And wanted to. And probably even enjoyed it. No. No thank you. What a gd damn monster.
At this point I want nothing from her. Except that we have kids. And the only thing I hope is that someday when her fog lifts. That she’ll make things right with the kids so that they understand what truly happened here. That this had nothing to do with me and dad did not walk away from our family. I’ll probably never get that. But it’s the only thing I’m hanging on to. Otherwise at this point it’s a full release. She’s dead to me.
I’d also like to expand on your wisdom for newbie LBS. I feel like HS is more focused on standing and reconciliation. At least that’s what all us newbies hang on to in the beginning.
But I think LBS would be better served focusing on detachment and living as if as a main mission statement if this website. Yes yes we say this all the time. But I feel like it should be our #1 goal.
And it’s not just because of my own situation. We all know the reconciliation stats. That’s the reality of it. The sooner the LBS moves on/moves forward. The better IMO. Some friends here told me the same thing. With hindsight, it was not worth standing/holding on, and they were right. I never wanted to believe it. “My situation is different right?” “My MLCer would never right?” Well no. She can. And she did. And she will continue to. It’s not worth it.
This MLC thing is still a mind truck for me some days. How someone can flip a switch like that. It hardly seems real.
Anyway I’m in a really good spot right now. My open thank you letter to HS is still coming. You folks have saved my life. I mean it. Thank you. But at this point. It’s time to move on.
I forget which hero was tracking the recon stats. Frenchie!? Please make me down for an “it’s over” my friend.
Thank you fellow LBS. Onward.
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Dear Why,
I confess I agree. I do love my wife but my life has become better once I have accepted the need to accept she wants this madness and started to make good decisions for me.
I absolutely love her. I wish she would snap out of it but standing I think creates a safety net that enables. But it is not easy to simplify and I do not judge others who wait for their love to work it out. I just know that detaching and making good decisions for me and my kids has been better for me.
I am not sorry I through everything at it. I have learned that truth and reality are malleable and we can’t change someone’s truth. We can only make good decisions for us and for our kids.
And they are lost. Only they can bring themselves back.
I too have closed the chapter of a wonderful part of my life. Will, I always love her. Yes. Can I love someone else. Not yet but maybe.
But I think the sooner the healing starts the better.
And this placed has helped me a lot like you. But it is not about saving your marriage. It is about saving you.
Help
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Similar timescale, pretty similar feelings, Marvin. As to why, I think it’s that their behaviour - not their leaving so much as how they left - leave a big question mark hanging over often decades of our own life, don’t they? And we get left with figuring out how to resolve that question mark.
Early on, as you can see from recent posters, we get a bit lost in a world of questions and most of us have a default response to look to our ex/spouse for answers. Bc after all, they were the only other person who shared that part of our life. And usually, we get no answers or none that make sense when we line them up against our own lived experience. Eventually, to avoid going a bit nuts lol, most of us find our own way of coming up with some kind of answer….maybe what we call MLC is one, idk. But most of us need to put some end to the cognitive dissonance somehow bc it is so unmooring as a way to live.
But no matter how we do that, I would guess that most of us are left with that small itch of ‘was it like I thought it was?’ And the fact that the only other human on the planet who was there, who witnessed and created those days and decades with us, is no longer accessible. I’ve found that bereavement has a version of the same thing, those anchored memories that you are the only one left to remember. That’s sad sometimes but very normal, isn’t it? We keep our memories alive often by sharing them or little rituals we have with others….grandma’s dish, the do you remember when conversations. The difference is that they don’t usually come with that big overarching question mark that our spouses deposited when they left and that can feel like it seeps into every crevice.
It’s a oretty tough battle to try to figure out our own reality post-BD. And to stop looking for answers from those who are given to gaslighting and deceit and destruction bc their agenda is different. But we do the best we can until we find a spot we can live with, I think. Whatever that is for each of us individually.
So yes it makes sense that, regardless of the life we have today, some small part of us even years on might like that simple acknowledgement. Even if most of us won’t get that either 😜
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But it is not about saving your marriage. It is about saving you.
This. Right here. What I wish someone had told me in the beginning is that what I had was gone. Even if he had come back, it was never going to be what it was, it would be something different. Once I figured out if I took care of me, then if he came back fine and if he didn't STILL fine, it became so much easier.
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Yes, it takes a while to realize that there is no "coming back" or "going back to what was", even if they walk through the door with the perfect apology and self-understanding. The reconciliation threads make that abundantly clear once we are in a place to hear what they are saying and see the hard work.
It was an irrevocable break.
There is only going forward, with or without them. And we need to be as healed as possible either way for this one precious life that we have.
Regarding apologies, I found this by Bill Gates interesting. All the way to the end sentence. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/rcna189599
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I really like your posts Marvyn - thanks for sharing. I had a similar set of stages to you. Although I knew from the very beginning my marriage was dead. Then I engaged in an internal struggle between intellectual and emotional self, where (perhaps surprising to some) the emotion part was supremely self-protective and put in all the boundaries against getting hurt. The intellectual me knew (and still knows) that my stbxH had some sort of breakdown and I sometimes wanted to approach the whole like a Project Manager :) I think all the questions, the reading up on mental health, MLC, whatever, it can be a necessary part of processing. Perhaps it is the bargaining stage of grief 'if I can understand what the problem is....I can...'. I think I know now (roughly) what happened, and there is a sort of peace in that. Not a solution, but a reason.
Treasur - I too wrestled with the 'what was real' part, in terms of our shared life of over 2 decades. In my situation, I know that my stbxH loved me very much, and he did the best he could. But he, like your W Marvyn, has borderline traits, and in this context - dozens of jobs, college courses, family riffs and transient friends - our relationship was his biggest commitment, and I believe, his safest place. I guess we both did our best. He just didn't have the emotional resilience to cope, or communicate what he needed, when things were difficult.
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Thanks for sharing the link to Bill Gate’s interview Reinventing. Makes me wonder if my xh had the same realization. I have to admit that deep inside I wish he had even though it doesn’t really matter anymore now.
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Thanks for sharing the link to Bill Gate’s interview Reinventing. Makes me wonder if my xh had the same realization. I have to admit that deep inside I wish he had even though it doesn’t really matter anymore now.
I guess if we were married to Bill we'd have better divorce settlements though 8)
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Kaydee I would not have minded. lol
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I absolutely agree that what you hope for changes as we heal and “see the light” I may be different than many, but I don’t feel any love anymore for my XH. I honestly don’t know what I feel for him. Which in itself makes me so sad, because I loved him so much, but since I don’t now know what was real or if any was real it has changed the past for me along with the future. I guess if he showed back up with a sincere realization of his actions and acknowledgement of the pain he caused it may restore some of my care for him in the past, because maybe then I would feel that it was real. That honestly would be nice. Better than thinking you lost 3 decades of life to someone that may never have existed
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I guess if he showed back up with a sincere realization of his actions and acknowledgement of the pain he caused it may restore some of my care for him in the past, because maybe then I would feel that it was real. That honestly would be nice. Better than thinking you lost 3 decades of life to someone that may never have existed
I am sorry that this is how you feel. I think we all would like to believe that people are immutable, that we have certainty about how they are and will be. But I came to realize a long time ago that all things change, that change is the only constant in life. Reason I say this is because I do not question the past I had with my W, even after how she has acted, and how she acts liked what we had has no value in the present. Its just that she changed, suddenly and dramatically.
You were there, you experienced all those moments for decades. Your experience was real. Even the length of time you were together tells you there was something solid and real there, otherwise it would not have lasted so long. This is exactly what I believe about my relationship, my W would not have been there for so long, we would not have had all those experiences, and what I felt toward her was absolutely real.
I thinks its tough but it is possible to hold both the past as being real while knowing what is happening now is so completely different.
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Its just that she changed, suddenly and dramatically.
I believe I have a similar understanding. One analogy that comes to mind is a brain tumor or car crash completely altering someone's personality or values or desires. That isn't to say that my ex-wife has a brain tumor or anything, but that there are many circumstances that are uncomfortable and tragic, and nothing to be done.
Similarly, there's nothing but my own experience. I can spend months and years interrogating, inspecting, and analyzing a participant to confirming some "objective" account, but I'll never get any closer to validating my full experience. There's too much for words to hold and convey.
And when I think about why I would even want that, it is about safety and permission. Were my emotions real? Was my impression accurate? Is reality what I felt it to be? Can I trust my account? You believe me, don't you? If only I could grab hold of the moment, I could keep it in my pocket safe and content. But I can't. Everything is evolving, melting, shifting, dissolving, changing. Paradigm shifts, inflation, elections, climate change. Neighbors moving, kids being born or going to school, trees cut down, ballooning crow populations. Somehow these things can be good AND bad, but those judgements aren't intrinsic to them. Instead the judgements only pop-out from my interactions with them. I guess what I mean is that the the static is illusory yet comforting in its simplicity. The alternative is to embrace the uncertainty of the dynamic and to be as fully present and able to respond as possible. We all already know this. It's just to live fully.
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Somehow these things can be good AND bad, but those judgements aren't intrinsic to them. Instead the judgements only pop-out from my interactions with them. I guess what I mean is that the the static is illusory yet comforting in its simplicity. The alternative is to embrace the uncertainty of the dynamic and to be as fully present and able to respond as possible. We all already know this. It's just to live fully.
This a thousand times. Judgement and inherent values are something we give things, and the need for assurance, certainty and constancy is also something we create. I am not saying everything is ok or the same, but acceptance that NOTHING is guaranteed and things WILL change is cruicial.
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Interesting posts about the past and how we feel about it now.
The other day, I was chatting with a friend who's been going through the MLC devastation for the last few months. I was telling her that when I think of xH, I feel nothing. No love, no hate, nothing.. There's a small residual sadness for the loss of my innocence and the idea that marriage was forever, but even that feels quite distant for me now.
She found this very sad to hear. She can't see how she will ever stop loving her H, even though he's behaving like a bratty 2-year-old. I guess I was like that for the first 2 years or so, but eventually, my life started moving forward. I made choices I never thought I would have to make and built a new life. I also changed; I'm not the same person I was.
I don't doubt my previous life was real, and xH's love was real for as long as it lasted. But something changed internally in him, and that love went away, or he couldn't access it anymore.. I never got closure, and eventually, I learnt to live without it. At this point, I don't expect anything. It was 2 years yesterday since I heard from him for the last time, and it was simply to confirm that we had ticked that last box we needed to tick to close our chapter forever. It's very sad that the love story we had for 15 years had such an ending but I made my peace with it. It's not what I hoped to achieve when I joined this forum all those years ago, but it was never up to me. Accepting that was one of the hardest lessons I had to learn in life
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I thinks its tough but it is possible to hold both the past as being real while knowing what is happening now is so completely different
I think I felt that way for a while, but the longer time passes and he engages in a life with someone that seems to enjoy rubbing her fortunes of a life with him that is purposely hurtful to his own children it seems like more than a change, but a character flaw that was always there. He hated everyone while we were together and now the kids and I are part of that outsider club of hate. So, not so much a change. If you are in his small inner circle you see his kindness and sweetness, but if you are not then you see the darkness.
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So in light of the last posts I had a notable conversation with my MLCer yesterday. She called to discuss a technical matter about her visa (so she can live happily with OM in another country that she immediately started complaining about in the call). At some point she decided to be social and started asking what I was up to. After a few generic answers from me she started engaging about something we had been talking about for over 10 years that I am now active in.
And within ten minutes, with no warning, suddenly her tone shifted, she became incredibly hostile (after an hour of fake niceness while sounding incredibly anxious) and started attacking me and what I was saying with no context or reason. It was a momentary throwback to the first month or so after BD1 where nothing made sense, where I was the absolute devil incarnate, and anything I touched was poison and wrong.
To be honest it actually threw me off balance for around 30 minutes. We quickly ended the call and I went off to do something. It took a little time to recenter myself, and it was shocking reminder of what it was like when I was in any way engaged with her. And to be slightly knocked off after all this time says a lot.
My two thoughts were 1) I still feel bad for her and can't understand how she is tolerating all the anxiety and pain she feels inside without trying to do something real about it, and 2) there is no way to stay engaged with this level of disorder and pain in any way, shape and form and remain functional much less healthy.
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Hmmmmmm....
And her visa issues are your problem how? Since you are D'd (if I recall correctly or will be soon), not your circus, not your monkeys. If her visa is dependent on your marriage, she should have thought of that before she decided to go toddling off with OM....
My MLCxW1was like that too though.... almost as if the Ketamine wore off while she was on the phone with me or maybe a bi-polar flip - the personality change was dramatic and within a minute from sweet as sugar to raging Godzilla on Rabies... I hung up on her more than once after repeating that her tone was not acceptable and that, if she wanted to continue the attacks I would end the call... and I did exactly that after counting to 10....
As to your two thoughts.... 1) she ISN'T tolerating the anxiety and pain but she is also choosing not to really DO anything about it more than cover it up with her next shot of "happy happy joy juice"from OM or whatever other form she is getting her jollies from and 2) you are spot-on that there is NO way to remain healthy while remaining engaged/attached to that rollercoaster...
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We are technically not divorced for various financial/legal reasons (nothing to do with relationship, and no not with any "hope" or idea, it is nothing now than a structure for finances). And yes the way it is set up we are both fully protected from each others actions.
The visa is not my problem (I absolutely agree with the not my circus not many monkey view of anything she does or doesn't do). She wanted to ask some advice about how to proceed, she does need my cooperation for technical reasons and I was happy to give her a sane view. With full expectation that it is the same as talking to my cat about visa matters. :D