Midlife Crisis: Support for Left Behind Spouses
Archives => Archived Topics => Topic started by: Albatross on November 11, 2013, 11:42:25 PM
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PREVIOUS REPLAY - #1 TOPIC (http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=3943.0)
PREVIOUS REPLAY - #2 TOPIC (http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=3993.0)
PREVIOUS REPLAY - #3 TOPIC (http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=4070.0)
SEPARATION
1. Difficulty of adaptation. Little progression of libido.
2. Regression of energy (depression, lack of disposable energy). - FOG !
THERE IS PERSONA DIVIDED FROM EGO - DISSOLUTION OF PERSONA - EGO / PERSONA SEPARATED
BEGINNING OF POSSIBLE INDIVIDUATION
LIMINALITY - POSSIBLE ESCAPE AND AVOID
3. Activation of unconscious contents (fantasies, complexes,
archetypal images, inferior function, opposite attitude,
shadow, anima/animus, etc.). Compensation. - POSSIBLE REPLAY ! - MERGER WITH SHADOW BEGINS
4. Symptoms of neurosis (confusion, fear, anxiety, guilt, moods, extreme affect, etc.). - DEEPER FOG !
5. Unconscious or half-conscious conflict between ego and contents activated in the unconscious.
Inner tension. Defensive reactions.
6. Activation of the transcendent function, involving the self and archetypal patterns of wholeness.
7. Formation of symbols (numinosity, synchronicity).
8. Transfer of energy between unconscious contents and consciousness. Enlargement of the ego,
progression of energy. POSSIBLE ACTING OUT - HIGH ENERGY REPLAY - BOMB DROP !
9. Assimilation of unconscious contents.
INDIVIDUATION CONTINUES - HAVE FURTHER STAGES
I have more time for syntheses this, will be hopefully soon.
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Dissolution of the Persona
- Firstly, one has to become aware of the Persona.
- Secondly, one must dissolve the Persona.
Dissolution of the Persona is a key transition in our development, and thus requires us to ‘separate’ from those qualities of the Persona that we worked so hard to develop and ‘mistook’ to be the qualities of our ‘self’. Dissolution of the Persona is not only about being able to take off the mask, but more importantly, being able to hang up the mask, while having the ability to put one on when necessary (i.e. social necessity) - though entirely at one’s own bidding.
At end of SEPARATION phase MLCer have separated ego and persona. Trough process of separation he become aware of persona as part of ego and it is a way different of ego. So, MLCer knows that their persona does not work anymore they decide to kill it. Bold text up said that. They still use it, but they know inside self that is MASK not persona for them anymore. They probably hate own persona. Sure they should rebuild it as better one, but they haven't clue how should look like.
Like transforming an oil painting to a mirror. Differentiating one’s own consciousness from the previous personal identities (Persona) creates a conscious wherein new objects of consciousness are no longer subject to subconscious projections and therefore this new found objectivity saves the subject from being at the mercy of the reactive mechanism.
Reactive mechanism = unconscious automation of the Persona.
For instance, if there is a spider on your shoulder, and you don’t know it, it has no effect on you.
But once you’re
(1) conscious of it your mind instantaneously experiences:
2) perception
3) sensation
4) reaction.
That means You don't react as You did before, automatically.
Upon dissolution of the Persona, one now becomes an entirely different ‘being’. A being free to express one’s self without the shackles of the unconscious automation of the Persona. This period is marked by an unfamiliar silence. The volume of the voices becomes silent, but what one loses in identity, one gains in personal insight. This silence in the mind is ‘deafening’ so to speak, and one feels awake. The occurrence is somewhat similar to the initial experience of having your ears pop after they’ve been plugged for some time and you had no idea.
So, MLCer after dissolution of persona give up from own identity. He is nobody. He is cocoon. He does not know who is he, yet. He just pretend with mask (old persona). Covert depression. Separation phase, also somehow means disconnecting from everyone, the world. MLCer does not work anymore. His identity is not what he really is, but he does not know who he is. Scary ? Sure. He turn inward to find out who he really is.
TIP: You probably notice that Your MLCer not react on similar happening as he did before. They are changed, no automation as before, they respond instead react from ego, not persona.
Why MLCers feel EMPTY ? Because their persona was TICK and rest of ego deflated. So, releasing bigger part of own ego as worthless is some kind of suicide. Such kind of people strongly identify with persona = like whole Self, which is not true. So, he experience somehow as own death, emptiness. He have now tick persona which is worthless and deflated weak rest of ego. Imagine that ? Also usually with tick persona goes bigger distance between persona and rest of ego in therm of thinking. ie one thinks that he is persona, ego interface to the world.
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Why MLCers feel EMPTY ? Because their persona was TICK and rest of ego deflated. So, releasing bigger part of own ego as worthless is some kind of suicide. Such kind of people strongly identify with persona = like whole Self, which is not true. So, he experience somehow as own death, emptiness. He have now tick persona which is worthless and deflated weak rest of ego. Imagine that ? Also usually with tick persona goes bigger distance between persona and rest of ego in therm of thinking. ie one thinks that he is persona, ego interface to the world.
One thinks that he is Self = Ego. Persona is tick, greater then rest of Ego. People who have small differences persona - rest of Ego and they are aware of Shadow and living in balance Shadow - Light, ie. Ego - Subconsciousness they are fully realized people. They show feelings, they are genuine, unique, appear to others more alive, spontaneous, assertive even charismatic. In other hand people who have low self esteem, conflict avoiders, people who does not express feelings, co-dependent and so on, have big difference between Persona and rest of Ego. So, we can talk about true self = Rest of Ego and false self = Persona. So, they actually live double life, showing trough Persona false self. And they aren't happy about self, they avoid confrontations because of fear of abandoning or other issues, means they have all the time negative feelings which then goes to the Shadow. Suppressing bad emotions, on that way build up negative energy in Shadow.
So, You have total imbalance, big Shadow, weak rest of the Ego depleted - tiny, false tick Persona. Such people identify Self with rest of Ego. Painful ? Yes. They have a lot repressed bad feelings, bad memories.
That can operate when You are younger, You have more life energy (psychic energy - Libido), also Shadow is lower in beginnings, but in time Shadow build up. And after dissolution of persona bigger part of Ego died, one lost identity, feel empty. They do not know who they are anymore. They believe that they are Ego minus Persona. That is small depleted, weak. Very scary. It is like You have two conciseness, two very different conciseness people in one. After dissolution of persona, remain weak one with low self esteem, pathetic one, scared one.
From one side You have big Shadow and form another side phoney Persona = Mask. Tiny weak rest of Ego is in the middle and one believe that part is HE. He is between hammer and anvil...
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Thanks Albertross , just attaching to your thread .
Callan
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Me too.
My h has really settled down and is 18 months post bd. is this normal replay behaviour? He is successful in work and keeps up regular contact with the kids. He is pursuing legal action and lives with alienator and they are supposedly planning to move to a bigger flat where the children will have their own room when they visit. Is this typical replay behaviour? Seems a bit normal to me!!!
I'm reading along avidly. Thank you albatross.
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Attaching too.
Toughtimes, I am doing the same as you, I have doubted this MLC for too long and have now finally admitted it is that, after Albatross, Stayed, SongAndDance and many others have pointed it out to me over and over again, based on what I post. My h is doing the same, totally normal, functioning perfectly well, very calm, happy, assured of what he is doing, in contact with the children. OW? Don't know where that's at, at the moment.
I was the biggest doubter and now, I read and read and read, REPLAY and the articles. And more and more makes sense. It's just impossibly hard when it feels like a normal breakup, doesn't it?.
Possibly with detachment well and truly in place, one can see the MLC behaviour more clearly, as when (as I have been) you are totally consumed and engulfed by it and cannot make sense of it, your rational brain is kicking against the impossible and you cannot see, or cannot believe it is that and happening to you. I am accepting now! I've had enough proof sent my way. Now I am finally able to sit back and watch. And curious as to what will happen next. Not trying to preach, I assure you, this is the biggest messed up LBS writing!
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Patience, I have also noticed my h more calm, and seems happy. Still trying to tell everyone ow is a wonderful person. BD will be the end of next month. So what happens next?
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Attaching for updates.
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Just latching on :):):):)
31andcounting
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Patience, I have also noticed my h more calm, and seems happy. Still trying to tell everyone ow is a wonderful person. BD will be the end of next month. So what happens next?
No one knows, unfortunately! I don't know what my H will do, but I have changed how I interact with him, so by default that should bring a change how he acts with me....I am a pursuer by nature he is a distance, so now I've stopped pursuing (only recently mind you) I am stepping back and observing. So far, nothing, except the look of shame on his face on Saturday. I am very curious, but I have to wait longer I think!
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Attaching too.
Toughtimes, I am doing the same as you, I have doubted this MLC for too long and have now finally admitted it is that, after Albatross, Stayed, SongAndDance and many others have pointed it out to me over and over again, based on what I post. My h is doing the same, totally normal, functioning perfectly well, very calm, happy, assured of what he is doing, in contact with the children. OW? Don't know where that's at, at the moment.
I was the biggest doubter and now, I read and read and read, REPLAY and the articles. And more and more makes sense. It's just impossibly hard when it feels like a normal breakup, doesn't it?.
Possibly with detachment well and truly in place, one can see the MLC behaviour more clearly, as when (as I have been) you are totally consumed and engulfed by it and cannot make sense of it, your rational brain is kicking against the impossible and you cannot see, or cannot believe it is that and happening to you. I am accepting now! I've had enough proof sent my way. Now I am finally able to sit back and watch. And curious as to what will happen next. Not trying to preach, I assure you, this is the biggest messed up LBS writing!
Yep, you could be talking about me! I will go and check out your thread xx
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LIMINALITY - POSSIBLE ESCAPE AND AVOID
3. Activation of unconscious contents (fantasies, complexes,
archetypal images, inferior function, opposite attitude,
shadow, anima/animus, etc.). Compensation. - POSSIBLE REPLAY ! - MERGER WITH SHADOW BEGINS
4. Symptoms of neurosis (confusion, fear, anxiety, guilt, moods, extreme affect, etc.). - DEEPER FOG !
5. Unconscious or half-conscious conflict between ego and contents activated in the unconscious.
Inner tension. Defensive reactions.
6. Activation of the transcendent function, involving the self and archetypal patterns of wholeness.
7. Formation of symbols (numinosity, synchronicity).
8. Transfer of energy between unconscious contents and consciousness. Enlargement of the ego,
progression of energy. POSSIBLE ACTING OUT - HIGH ENERGY REPLAY - BOMB DROP !
9. Assimilation of unconscious contents.
So is this where we are at with out MLCers in Replay? And this can last 2-7 years? I'm 19 months in and H has shown high energy, angry, blaming, grandiose behaviour for the first 8 months. Then, I think he felt very depressed for a few months, he wanted out of his business, it was making him "ill" as he couldn't switch off. He pushed for mediation around that time. Right now he is fine and dandy.
What I am trying to find evidence of at the moment is a depression. Last week my H sent me an angry email telling me I am leaving him no option but to petition for D because my lawyer hasn't responded to his letter. I told H that in the light of his email my lawyer is redrafting his letter and he will hear from him shortly. H replied, thank you for letting me know. This week H is enthusiastically setting out plans for christmas. They involve him being here christmas eve, christmas day and lunchtime boxing day. So he is coming across as very cool, calm and collected. Not confused and unsure about things.
I wish I had a secret agent who could fill me in on how he is the rest of the time!!!
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TT, you have just put my H down on your post. No anger or D yet but mention of mediation!!! And the fun goes on and on!!! I see no signs if anything except someone perfectly content and assured of his decision to leave
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TT, you have just put my H down on your post. No anger or D yet but mention of mediation!!! And the fun goes on and on!!! I see no signs if anything except someone perfectly content and assured of his decision to leave
Look at 7t this way then.....No sign of strong emotions? Not normal!
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Sorry sbout that yellow in my last post, I thought I did it blue.
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TT
I highlighted it with my mouse and then I could read it.
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Sorry sbout that yellow in my last post, I thought I did it blue.
Blue it is. :) and, you know TT, it can even last for more than 7 years. and just the Replay part. How do I know? I have an MLCer that has been in Replay for more than 7 years. 8) ::) :o ;D
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TT, you have just put my H down on your post. No anger or D yet but mention of mediation!!! And the fun goes on and on!!! I see no signs if anything except someone perfectly content and assured of his decision to leave
Look at 7t this way then.....No sign of strong emotions? Not normal!
Booboo, it's correct, I never see strong emotions, I'm the one who freaked out, cried, begged, pleased, promised, got angry, you name it, I did it, and all he says: I don't want to, I can't. Let me go.
I have actually been completely stunned when after I have completely broken down in front of him, he just gets up and leave. He might say he is sorry for the pain, but remorse is not there, and I know that if I was causing this much pain to another human being, especially one I've been with for over 20 years, I could NEVER walk away not knowing they were OK, OK to drive home, etc...he NEVER EVER rang after we parted badly to ensure I was OK and calmed and safe...unbelievable really.
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PG - they are just void of all emotions, and feel dead about anything and everything that once mattered
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Emotions about children is there though. Maybe not true emotions, but acted out of guilt? Even if he knows about their pain, he doesn't know how to make it etter and def doesn't do anything, except meet them for a bit and talk about anything except this!
And lots of emotions for OW!!! I suppose she qualifies as a new thing, doesn't she?
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My H is a total different kettle of fish. He has no emotions for anything, not even his kids. You are right, he will have them for OW, and enough to light the southern hemisphere, I'm sure. ::)
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They are so preoccupied by self that they wont put any energy into their OLD life. They kill old self, they kill old life. All people from old life are burden for them. They try to live fantasy world in real world. Like ferry tale. That is pure projection of their own fantasy to reality. Their emotions are pointed only in that way. That is the reason why they look to us as dead, empty with shark eyes, living deaths, zombies. They live in other time / space then we do. It is quite interesting that their space / time is only their and all others from reality are only actors who are willing to play they twisted fantasy. Sure for that those actors have to be unusual people, lost in time - reality otherwise they wont participate. They use old personality as mask to defend own fantasy world. We just annoying them. The whole world for them is own head they are masters of scene, they play actually some kind of game. They CONTROL that world, if they don't like what is in it they move on next willing participant who wanna play their twisted game. They are aware that is something wrong with them.
When they showing overt depression in replay ? When are bored in their own fantasy world, alienator wanna out. So they usually have more actors in spare, so they go on another... And so on... Period when they haven't willing alienator on disposal they are overtly depressed to us.
And when REPLAY stop ? IMO stop when they become tired of playing own game, means become bored playing it, no getting any satisfaction from it.
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If alienator willing to be with them, then it can be years. Do they themselves want out even if alienator doesn't want to?
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Jumping in....
I am in the same place. No concerns about our sons.
No concern about providing, but gets angry if asked if he has a job yet.
Happy or so it appears, with ow.
Totally blind to the destruction.
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If alienator willing to be with them, then it can be years. Do they themselves want out even if alienator doesn't want to?
Of course. MLCer in time realize that alienator not fit to his/hers own projection, nobody can fit in that because nobody can read other people minds and act in any situation on exact way how imagination of MLCer desire. Means MLCer stay in relationship until infatuation vanish, hormones, chemicals or even faster in case that MLCer do not get enough back own projections from alienator. And then no matter of infatuation he will try to seek another one alienator and so on until he/she eventually awake from his fantasy world.
Also is known that two people can get together in 6 months, if they do not make that relationship works, dynamics of relationship change and relationship die.
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Albatross just wondering if you could clarify or expand on this:
Also is known that two people can get together in 6 months, if they do not make that relationship works, dynamics of relationship change and relationship die.
Not sure I quite understand. Thank you TT x
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My H is trying to wipe out his old life , well when I say that people who were really close to him ie Me and his Family , he seems very angry with his parents and is at the moment trying to blckmail his Sister into meeting OW , its kind of you wont see me if you dont ant to meet OW.
He is punishing them because they dont agree with him , does anyone else see this in there MLC'r
Callan
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Albatross just wondering if you could clarify or expand on this:
Also is known that two people can get together in 6 months, if they do not make that relationship works, dynamics of relationship change and relationship die.
Not sure I quite understand. Thank you TT x
When two people met online, FB is great playground to seek old flames, then MLCer try to make web for him/her and in time try to establish EA. Can exists on that only no PA. And EA if not materialized can't exists more then 6 months, relationship dynamics change, one of them is not satisfied with progress and falling down of relationship start. Or if OM/OW not respond properly never will develop even EA. Also iis OM/OW is MLC then they have own fantasy world, or OM/OW have some PD there You go again...
My H is trying to wipe out his old life , well when I say that people who were really close to him ie Me and his Family , he seems very angry with his parents and is at the moment trying to blckmail his Sister into meeting OW , its kind of you wont see me if you dont ant to meet OW.
He is punishing them because they dont agree with him , does anyone else see this in there MLC'r
Callan
Mine keep secretive own MLC, so I do not experience that. But she almost completely disconnected from all friends, acquittances when interact with them wearing mask. She have girlfriend from teenage age who did not contact 20 years, but she dig up her when she hit MLC. That GF now become her best friend because she is in MLC to, I have proofs for that. So, MLCers in MLC make new friends which does not know him before MLC and surround with people who support their pathology. So, it is quite normal that Your spouse is angry on anybody who not support them in their twisted acting out.
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"My H is trying to wipe out his old life , well when I say that people who were really close to him ie Me and his Family , he seems very angry with his parents and is at the moment trying to blckmail his Sister into meeting OW , its kind of you wont see me if you dont ant to meet OW.
He is punishing them because they dont agree with him , does anyone else see this in there MLC'r "
My H too is blackmailing my D24 and SIL.
He told SIL that if he starts a family with OW she wont be a part of his life.
SIL said so be it....I refuse to accept OW. H has also withheld the yearly cash gift for D24 given to all the grandchildren because she refuses to accept OW.
So what does one do?
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Thanks Albatross that makes a lot of sense . I think he has underestimated his Sister, he thinks she is still the baby of the Family when in fact she is very a very accomplised woman with her own mind .
Callan
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Albatross,
Just wondering, what are your thoughts regarding the MLC'er that is with another OM/OW for longer than 6 months to a year? My exH is on his 3rd OW and it's getting close to one year since they've been together. His 1st and 2nd OW's only lasted about 4 to 6 months each. This one he is with now was his 3rd OW briefly but then he broke up with her for about a year. He must have gotten lonely or couldn't find a replacement so he went back to her and now they have been together nearly a year. From what I can tell......and that's not much.....he seems "settled"........and content. I recently saw a picture of them together posted on FB and he certainly doesn't look the picture of happiness. I'd really like to hear your thoughts on this type situation.
Thanks.
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Albatross,
Just wondering, what are your thoughts regarding the MLC'er that is with another OM/OW for longer than 6 months to a year? My exH is on his 3rd OW and it's getting close to one year since they've been together. His 1st and 2nd OW's only lasted about 4 to 6 months each. This one he is with now was his 3rd OW briefly but then he broke up with her for about a year. He must have gotten lonely or couldn't find a replacement so he went back to her and now they have been together nearly a year. From what I can tell......and that's not much.....he seems "settled"........and content. I recently saw a picture of them together posted on FB and he certainly doesn't look the picture of happiness. I'd really like to hear your thoughts on this type situation.
Thanks.
Most likely he must to have someone. MLCers does not like being alone. You two don't have contact when he was alone ?
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My exH is on his 3rd OW and it's getting close to one year since they've been together. His 1st and 2nd OW's only lasted about 4 to 6 months each. This one he is with now was his 3rd OW briefly but then he broke up with her for about a year.
Sad isn't it. I bet each time he gets a new one, he's so sure this is the one ::) Wonder what is next, OW#4? Sticking it out for a while with OW#3 even if they are miserable? Who knows. Very sad. He's not happy.
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Albatross,
I do not know if/when he is alone. I can only guess at times. We have very little contact. I haven't physically seen him in over two years now. Earlier on he told me he wanted to be alone...that was a lie....he already had OW#1 waiting. He also told me that he was a very sick man........depression.....and that I should run for my life as far away as possible. At one point I asked him why he felt another woman could handle his depression and be with him better than me. He said he had wondered about that himself. Didn't make sense. He has also vowed that he will never remarry.......ever again. I'm his second marriage. He said he just wants female friends.....not a relationship. As I see it.......he is in a one woman relationship right now. She is 10 years older. I can tell that she is truly infatuated with him......having a younger man attracted to her. I have noticed in the past that when he was without an OW he was nicer toward me. More responsive. Now.......not so much. He is very distant and keeps his responses very brief...........at the times we happen to communicate.....which isn't very often. I'd like to communicate more........or at least try to......but everyone here says go NC........or just keep it strictly business. We do not have children together........only share a vacation property. That's the only connection for us. He recently replied in an email (only means of communication) that he hoped I was doing well.......and he asked about the animals.
Snowdrop..........I do think he is only with her because he ran out of options and the thought of returning to me probably wasn't even considered. However, I do believe that he may have tried had he not been able to get hooked back up with OW#3.....I actually count her as #4 since they broke up for a year. I do not really seem him as truly happy. Not really.
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LMM - for sure. Oh, he'll be replaced soon enough when OW finds a new toy boy ::) Sad, empty soul, isn't he. ::)
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she wants to be divorced asap as I was not able to understand the pain she is in staying in that house with me. The other one was she has this pain in her head and she just wants to get her own identity back, she no longer want to be know with my surname, she just wants to go back to her own (maiden) name. I so wanted to ask her more about the pain she was in but I just didn’t know how to phrase it.
Hi Albatross,
I just posted this on my thread but I wanted to put it out to wider viewing, what do you make of this about W being in pain and wanting to get her own identity back. I thought these comment were very interesting from a MLC, Tunnel, Replay point of view. She has worn her mask very well in front of me but I think this the first time she has let it slip.
Lanzo
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Lanzo, I have just been reading some of the 'validating' articles by Al Turtle that are listed on the front page of the standing actions thread. They give great tips on how to create a safe environment for someone to share info. Of course, I am not sure if this advice is applicable in MLC because we are often told that any form of enquiry can be seen as pushing. I would encourage you to read it though because RCR posted these articles (so I guess that's an endorsement right there). I think MLC or not, I think everyone appreciates someone who is willing to listen. It can sometimes help them sort out what it is they are trying to say as well.
It's very interesting to read what she said about going back to her own identity. I'll be interested to see what's posted here in reply to your question on that.
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Going back to her own identity, this is MLC script from my experience with my MLCer and a friend who is clearly MLC, my H said he wanted to go back and fix himself properly. He has been going to all the places he and I used to go to when we were in our mid twenties and ow is 23, the age he was when we met. An ex colleague contacted me a few years ago and said she wanted to get in touch with people who she knew before her H. When she got here with her H and two sons, she told me she had fallen in love with her soul mate (another dad at her kids school) and that she married her h with her head not her heart. MLC SCRIPT.
MLC is a crisis of SELF, they have to lose themselves, all of them, they don't know which is real anymore, in order to find themselves, as I see it. That is very simplistic but kind of makes sense to me. I remember feeling so freaked out by my Hs change in personality and behaviour I said he was like a chameleon, always changing to fit the people around him. When he talked just before BD he said he didn't know who he was anymore, he felt like a chameleon. RCR wrote a really good blog about the teen years and how we try on different personas and try out different personalities as a right of passage. She states that this is what our MLCers are doing, I can really relate to that.
Much love TT xx
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So, if they seek people from their past, even relationships, do you have any idea if, once they come out of the tunnel, they maintain them, or do they realize once again, not what they expected.
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So let simplify first.
- Dissolution of persona - person changed a lot and turned inward a lot.
- ESCAPE & AVOID start when merger with shadow start and they cycle a lot.
- After merger with shadow finished they become dual person monster - prisoner.
- Then they have to deal with animus/anima, there REPLAY starts.
- After they make dissolution of animus - anima there is next phase, dealing with self.
- Rebirth and reintegration - dealing with Self.
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'The integration of the shadow, or the realization of the personal unconscious, marks the first stage of the analytic process...without it a recognition of anima and animus is impossible'.[30] Conversely 'to the degree to which the shadow is recognized and integrated, the problem of the anima, i.e., of relationship, is constellated',[31] and becomes the centre of the individuation quest.
Nevertheless Jungians warn that 'acknowledgement of the shadow must be a continuous process throughout one's life';[32] and even after the focus of individuation has moved on to the animus/anima, 'the later stages of shadow integration' will continue to take place - the grim 'process of washing one's dirty linen in private',[33] accepting one's shadow.
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Basically shadow is merged with ego but shadow is not under control of ego. Means shadow become part of conciseness, and You have now dual personality, like light and shadow, in opposite way. Two personalities in one, monster and prisoner. Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde.
Shadow is huge and posses huge energy. And so long time shadow is repressed part of Self. So, it is logical that person become very egocentric, selfish. And all repressed - shadow now have to be realized and maintenance balance. That is the reason why shadow personality now is stronger and lead MLCer. He still wear mask - old personality. Person become treacherous and delusional. So, one can be possessed by shadow and gain more clarity when ego take lead. They are in neurotic state even in psychotic state. They use regression of ego as defense mechanism, use maladaptive coping mechanism and use immature defensive mechanisms.
Using so regressive immature defense mechanisms they doing extreme projections, including anima/animus. There come adultery... dreams, fantasies released.
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The stages of psychological development progress like this:
1. Discovery of opposites - the conscious (& Ego?) is born
2. Preference of opposites - the Shadow is born
3. Out of opposites comes a distinction between I and not-I. The qualities identified with at this stage are not uniquely individual, but identified with the collective - this is the beginning of the development of the Persona.
4. Persona development - copying others in order to ‘fit in’.
5. Re-cognizing the Persona (become conscious of the MASK).
6. Dissolution of the Persona - strictly by ‘act of will’.
7. Persona complex gets replaced by Archetypes
8. Re-cognizing the Archetypes:
9. Dissolution of the Archetypes: (the Shadow, the Anima or Animus, and the Self)
10. Individuation
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7. Persona complex gets replaced by Archetypes
This is crucial. Means person is ruled by bloody Archetypes and ego is small and very confused. Person is lead by Shadow, Animus / Anima, Self.
I remember when my wife write in FB convo to her MLCer GF that she does not know why she feel strong attraction to other man ! And she said that she must find out why ! Also, when she wrote this article (http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=3654.msg235827#msg235827) on her blog we talk about it and she shows me that she is driven only by emotion and then we had fight. Then both of us get into cognitive resonance. Her emotions create facts for her and my ratio has facts. It was unavoidable that we are two different worlds about issue. Because she take strong defense defending own stand with no arguments, we fell in "circular conversation" where no progress. And then she said, that she must live because I can't stand that she live with me and for example I am absent from home 5 days because I wanna be with other man ! Insane ? It is !
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Using so regressive immature defense mechanisms they doing extreme projections, including anima/animus. There come adultery... dreams, fantasies released.
Nevertheless Jungians warn that 'acknowledgement of the shadow must be a continuous process throughout one's life';[32] and even after the focus of individuation has moved on to the animus/anima, 'the later stages of shadow integration' will continue to take place - the grim 'process of washing one's dirty linen in private',[33] accepting one's shadow.
Thanks Albatross ;) This makes so much sense to me.
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Albatross,
My H is clearly still in replay although the replay behaviors have seemed to slowed quite a bit; no OW that I can see, broke up with xOW about 10 weeks ago (she has tried to contact him but I don't think he has replied). I am struggling with how move forward; stay living together or not. I think that I can deal with living together so long as there is no OW but he keeps talking about wanting to date ??? He wants to live as roommates which is difficult for me. He knows that I will accept him having another OW and I will leave him but thus far he seems to be on good behavior.
How do I encourage this to continue this way? I know it is better if he doesn't move out but obviously that is not within my control.
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Albatross,
My H is clearly still in replay although the replay behaviors have seemed to slowed quite a bit; no OW that I can see, broke up with xOW about 10 weeks ago (she has tried to contact him but I don't think he has replied). I am struggling with how move forward; stay living together or not. I think that I can deal with living together so long as there is no OW but he keeps talking about wanting to date ??? He wants to live as roommates which is difficult for me. He knows that I will accept him having another OW and I will leave him but thus far he seems to be on good behavior.
How do I encourage this to continue this way? I know it is better if he doesn't move out but obviously that is not within my control.
You have control only on self. It is about You, not about him. Search Your soul what you want. You should tell him that You will not tolerate that he have affair and living together, and what You will do about it if that happens.
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You have control only on self. It is about You, not about him. Search Your soul what you want. You should tell him that You will not tolerate that he have affair and living together, and what You will do about it if that happens.
He is very much aware that I will not tolerate another OW. We have had quite a few discussions around living arrangements lately; I said that I should not be the one to leave, so he started talking about him moving out. I stayed quiet on the subject as much as I could ;) and about a week later he declares that he can't afford to move out and I will have to find a way to deal with him dating ??? (he can totally afford to move out if he wanted to) He did try to guilt me by saying he didn't think it was fair that he was going to have to sell some of his stuff; I told him that is his choice there are options other than selling your things. Actuallly he has been trying to throw the dating thing in my face a lot lately, I am not sure what to think of it. Anyway, it seems that he wants to date (aka look for sex) and he wants to live me; not sure how this is going to end up.
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Sorry, searching for answers, but "not tolerate another ow"???. Hmmmmm why did you even tolerate the first one? Now he thinks it's absolutely okay to do that, he gets away with it and you go nowhere or rather he gets to stay exactly where he is. Really!!! Wants to date and you have to deal with it, get him gone. You are better than that.
Sd
X
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Sorry, searching for answers, but "not tolerate another ow"???. Hmmmmm why did you even tolerate the first one? Now he thinks it's absolutely okay to do that, he gets away with it and you go nowhere or rather he gets to stay exactly where he is. Really!!! Wants to date and you have to deal with it, get him gone. You are better than that.
Sd
X
I did leave him for about a week and he broke up with OW because he didn't want to lose me. I did 'tolerate' it for much longer than I should have, it took me a while to get my bearings back. That will not happen again.
In H's head we are best friends living as roommates so he should be able to date :o I think most of the dating talk is to test my reactions; I am gone if he starts dating, he knows that I am not going to put myself through that. The ball is in his court.
And I agree, I am better than that ;)
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Searching - I had a little of that from my H. He said he would be happy to live with me for the kids sake but that would include him having his other life with OW aswell. It was set up for effect or to push movement of some kind. He has gone now. I agree with Superdog though - he is pushing you - he probably needs to go. My H also used the line that he could not afford it- yet he has gone.
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Searching - I had a little of that from my H. He said he would be happy to live with me for the kids sake but that would include him having his other life with OW aswell. It was set up for effect or to push movement of some kind. He has gone now. I agree with Superdog though - he is pushing you - he probably needs to go. My H also used the line that he could not afford it- yet he has gone.
Interestingly enough H brought up my cashing him out of the house so that he could find something else ::) This is the right move for me. If he goes through with this then we may have a chance in the future. It is the first step in him taking some ownership for all of this. I suspect that he will be a clinger but I can deal with that much better if he is not constantly present.
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Clinging gets old pretty fast also..if there's a financial way to get him out of the house you may want to consider it to save your sanity.
Once he's out? Lay down the law and boundaries he cannot cross and garner some respect from him.
Ow in the picture? You -OUT.
(((Hugs)))
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true..... I continue to say "I will NOT be part of a triangle"!!!!
EVER!! My H was in EA.....several actually :( The one thing I said throughout, once I found out was I will not live in a triangle, I never told him to leave, I never said I was leaving...I just said "not gonna do it" your choice......he has ended the EA . time will tell :):):)
321andcounting
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Albatross,
I'm not trying to hijack but I was reading over an earlier REPLAY thread and it said, "shadow may appear in dreams and visions in various forms, and typically appears as a person as the same sex as that of the dreamer." (Sorry I don't know how to cut and paste quotes from the site). What exactly does this mean?
Thanks, I reckon so
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According to Jung, the shadow, in being instinctive and irrational, is prone to projection: turning a personal inferiority into a perceived moral deficiency in someone else. Jung writes that if these projections are unrecognized "The projection-making factor (the Shadow archetype) then has a free hand and can realize its object--if it has one--or bring about some other situation characteristic of its power."
These projections insulate and cripple individuals by forming an ever thicker fog of illusion between the ego and the real world.
The shadow may appear in dreams and visions in various forms, and typically 'appears as a person of the same sex as that of the dreamer'. The shadow's appearance and role depend greatly on the living experience of the individual. Interactions with the shadow in dreams may shed light on one's state of mind. A conversation with the shadow may indicate that one is concerned with conflicting desires or intentions.
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Albatross,
I'm not trying to hijack but I was reading over an earlier REPLAY thread and it said, "shadow may appear in dreams and visions in various forms, and typically appears as a person as the same sex as that of the dreamer." (Sorry I don't know how to cut and paste quotes from the site). What exactly does this mean?
Thanks, I reckon so
Imagine object on light, that is the consciousness, what we are aware of self. Aware that we are alive. Every object on light have own shadow. Bigger ego have bigger shadow. Shadow is always bigger then object on light. Shadow is 10/11 of our brain, that is subconsciousness. Only 1/11 is what we aware. All emotions and all our past emotions, all what we lived is stored in shadow. We can't remember those, but that all is part of us.
When we sleep, means our consciousness sleep, all other - shadow never sleep 10/11 of our brain. And dreams come from shadow. Usually dreams are signs from shadow, our fears for example. And all what is repressed is there.
We dream every night, but we do not remember dreams well, or not remember at all. But when we dream nightmare, release of psychic energy is enormous, means feelings are so strong and real that dream awake conscience. Then we are so aware what we dream about. We said, OMG that was so real with pictures, feelings, colors and so on...
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Thanks Albatross,
I understand what Jung is saying now about the shadow in dreams. My wife was monster from Jan until Middle of April. Something happened in mid April and she was suddenly herself again. Clear of the fog, saying she was sorry and didn't know why she acted the way she did. She told me that during this time she felt weak and scrawny inside. That was so strange to me because she was so mean, forceful and sure of herself and projecting everything on me. I felt I was to blame for everything and that it was my fault totally. It was like there were two people inside of her. I thought the worst was over but the nightmare as everyone knows would get much worse. As I read the post and articles it makes things that she said and the way she acted make sense. My W hair is long and brunet and she started to curl it this past year. In August she bought a coffee mug with wonder woman on it. I wondered at the time if she was trying to convince herself that she was strong and independent. Man, I hated that coffee mug for some reason.
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"I should like to emphasize that the integration of the shadow, or the realization of the personal unconscious, marks the first stage in the analytic process, and that without it a recognition of anima and animus is impossible. The shadow can be realized only through a relation to a partner, and anima and animus only through a relation to a partner of the opposite sex, because only in such a relation do their projections become operative."
- Jung
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"I should like to emphasize that the integration of the shadow, or the realization of the personal unconscious, marks the first stage in the analytic process, and that without it a recognition of anima and animus is impossible. The shadow can be realized only through a relation to a partner, and anima and animus only through a relation to a partner of the opposite sex, because only in such a relation do their projections become operative."
- Jung
Albatross, I understand the need to have the relationship with the opposite sex, however, does it need to involve intimacy? We all know that the OW is a symptom and I have always understood their role in this but I have also thought that the MLCer gets confused about what it is they need; they confuse their needs (closeness) with sex. Could the MLCer have a friendship with the opposite sex and still be able to move through the tunnel? Would this then be considered a transition instead of of a crisis?
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Albatross, I understand the need to have the relationship with the opposite sex, however, does it need to involve intimacy? We all know that the OW is a symptom and I have always understood their role in this but I have also thought that the MLCer gets confused about what it is they need; they confuse their needs (closeness) with sex. Could the MLCer have a friendship with the opposite sex and still be able to move through the tunnel? Would this then be considered a transition instead of of a crisis?
Some of them are only in EA, but majority are in PA. Affairs are difference between MLT and MLC.
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Albatross,
My BD was "I want a divorce". I found out about 5 months later there was OM, she said nothing physical happened and it lasted only few months. From monster after BD, to OM, to eventually moving out the week before Thanksgiving , everything is major MLC. My question is, do you think that it is possible to have all of the other crisis events and the other relationship not get physical. Everything else is there but she has always maintained that nothing physical happened.
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My question is, do you think that it is possible to have all of the other crisis events and the other relationship not get physical. Everything else is there but she has always maintained that nothing physical happened.
It is possible that only EA exists.
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I reckon so~ My H has had 2 OW , EA only..all he has admitted that and I believe him. I know both were not physical, I mean hugs,kissing.....I think yes, but no S@$. Everything else has been "script" he just never went completely over the boundary......close enough to cause all sorts of havoc. Has told me it was to that point, but he did not. We are reconnecting/reconciling now. He never left the home, BD was over 3 years ago, the crisis has been 6 to 7 years in play :(
I believe it is possible "to not " cross that line for some :) I also understand my H is not completely through the tunnel yet...but he is headed that direction :):):):)
31andcounting
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31andcounting,
I hope for the possibility of R in the future that my W is telling the truth. I know that she has felt guilt in her life for things that she had no part in. She has a father who is a perfectionist and she became one too. She puts a lot of pressure on herself and I am realizing that she was living a life of accommodation. I know that she is carrying guilt and probably some shame, she is very hurt, but she is in a state that seems to be void of emotions. This is the opposite of what she has always been. She seems hurt, confused, and I believe she is deceived and chasing something that doesn't even exists. Her father cheated on her mother at least twice although they never separated and are very happy today. Even if it was a PR, as hard as that will be to deal with I love her and pray that we are a family again one day.
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I reckon so~ I understand completely. My H had alot of the same, he even said "i just want to feel something" he has lived with a life of shame and guilt for things that happened to him as a child, then he had done some"things" early on in out M , IE walked out on me andour 2 babies....divorced me, came back now crisis. So much shame and guilt :( I have stood for our love and for our family for some time now. Try to be full of grace, that is what truly helped me get through. Put myself in his pain...........it has been tough but coming around to a much much better place now. Prayers for you :)
(((hugs)))
31andcounting
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Stage #1 SEPARATION
1. Difficulty of adaptation. Little progression of libido - Imminently lead to the depression.
2. Regression of energy (depression, lack of disposable energy) - MLCer dive in depression - They start to turn inward.
3. Re-cognizing the Persona (become conscious of the MASK) - breaking point, they have to kill self.
4. Dissolution of the Persona - strictly by ‘act of will’. (http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=4256.msg266265#msg266265)
Separation phase finished. One become nobody - lost identity.. They experience ego death. Persona is interface to the world, means MLCer is finally cut off from world. Whole his world is only himself.
(http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=4256.msg266266#msg266266)
Stage #2 LIMINALITY - Merger with shadow begins.
1. Activation of unconscious contents
(fantasies, complexes,archetypal images, inferior function, opposite attitude,shadow, anima/animus, etc.).
- Compensation - A natural process aimed at establishing or maintaining balance within the psyche.
2. Symptoms of neurosis (confusion, fear, anxiety, guilt, moods, extreme affect, etc.)
3. Unconscious or half-conscious conflict between ego and contents activated in the unconscious.
Inner tension. Defensive reactions. Persona complex gets replaced by Archetypes ! Archetypes are complexes, means they become autonomous. Means shadow become autonomous. Link between shadow and ego is animus/anima (Soul).
- ESCAPE & AVOID
"I should like to emphasize that the integration of the shadow, or the realization of the personal unconscious, marks the first stage in the analytic process, and that without it a recognition of anima and animus is impossible. The shadow can be realized only through a relation to a partner, and anima and animus only through a relation to a partner of the opposite sex, because only in such a relation do their projections become operative." - Jung
- REGRESSION - REGRESSIVE RESTORATION OF PERSONA - REPLAY - Replay continues until next phase.
4. Re-cognizing the Archetypes. - To reach this point one have to reach stage of humility - PROJECTIONS VANISHED.
- AWAKENING !
5. Dissolution of the Archetypes: (the Shadow, the Anima or Animus, and the Self).
- LIMINAL OVERT DEPRESSION
STAGE #3 REINTEGRATION - INDIVIDUATION
6. Activation of the transcendent function, involving the self and archetypal patterns of wholeness. - CENTERING OF PSYCHE.
7. Formation of symbols (numinosity, synchronicity).
8. Transfer of energy between unconscious contents and consciousness. Enlargement of the ego, progression of energy.
9. Assimilation of unconscious contents.
10. Rebuilding PERSONA - Rebirth - Reintegration can be repeated including tweaking new persona.
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Albatross, when a MLCer kills their persona which is their mask, what do they generally look like afterwords? I'm hoping for our family to be together again and I love my wife very much even though I don't know who she is right now. I wonder what she will be like on the other side of this. I fell in love with her, persona and all. I know this is not the real her. If what I have always known was not the real her either it is still the her that I married and started a family with.
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31andcounting,
Thanks for the encouraging words and prayers! 6-7 years of this is a very sobering number. I am 1 year since recognizing the crisis and it seems like forever. I know that a MLCer is in a tunnel and I feel I'm in one too, just a different one. I feel sorry for my W and what she is going through, I know it is painful. The sad part is the things she feels will free her will, in the end, just bring more pain. :(
I am so glad to hear your marriage is heading in a good direction! Can't get enough of those stories that keep hope alive.
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Thanks I reckon so :):) yes 6 or 7 is long BUT I did not know it during all that time....I knew something was "off" could not figure out why "whatever" I did it was wrong...... I am 3 plus years from BD#1 "my heart is not in our home" "I NEVER wanted to marry you" speech.(after 31 years of marriage) It is a tough road to follow for sure, but worth it. "I" have become different and will continue to grow, my H too I hope. Not in is head so I don't really know how he is changing...he is but don't know particulars yet, may not ever know I guess :( I am learning that is ok. The old me would never have gone on without answers to EVERYTHING!!! It is a growing process for all :)
We must have darkness before we see light :)
(((hugs)))
31
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Albatross, when a MLCer kills their persona which is their mask, what do they generally look like afterwords? I'm hoping for our family to be together again and I love my wife very much even though I don't know who she is right now. I wonder what she will be like on the other side of this. I fell in love with her, persona and all. I know this is not the real her. If what I have always known was not the real her either it is still the her that I married and started a family with.
As far as I know some permanently stay in crisis, some even commit suicide, but majority come trough crisis and generally their persona remain almost same as before crisis, but better then before. Means calm with inner balance, more alive and ofc out of depression. And they should become real personality.
31andcounting,
Thanks for the encouraging words and prayers! 6-7 years of this is a very sobering number. I am 1 year since recognizing the crisis and it seems like forever. I know that a MLCer is in a tunnel and I feel I'm in one too, just a different one. I feel sorry for my W and what she is going through, I know it is painful. The sad part is the things she feels will free her will, in the end, just bring more pain. :(
I am so glad to hear your marriage is heading in a good direction! Can't get enough of those stories that keep hope alive.
Crisis start much, much before then spouse spot it. So, Your wife probably been in crisis couple years before you notice.
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I can hardly imagine the joy of having my pre MLC wife back, much less the joy of having her back better!
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Albatros... I am glad that you touched on the subject of mlc starting couple of years before BD, as it is something I have been thinking about lately. I can think back at least a couple of years in my sitch and remember my W saying silly things that only make sence now. Not to mention, I recently found out that she was saying silly things to her girlfriends long time ago about divorce and still being young (in a funny way). What I'm trying to say I guess is if you could explain a little bit more about that area of mlc. Is BD somewhere in the middle of mlc? Do you add up all the years before BD or start counting years after BD? Sorry if the question is silly, I'm still new around here (just 8 months) , but I have to say, thanx for this thread, I've been reading it when time allows.
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MLC in general is about 2 - 7 years. Replay average is about 2 years. BD is usually final flight and it is so far I know about 2/3 of the MLC.
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As far as I know some permanently stay in crisis, some even commit suicide, but majority come trough crisis and generally their persona remain almost same as before crisis, but better then before. Means calm with inner balance, more alive and ofc out of depression. And they should become real personality.
Hey Al, hows it going.
I still can't understand any of it, but wish I did, so keep reading.
but majority come trough crisis and generally their persona remain almost same as before crisis, but better then before. Means calm with inner balance, more alive and ofc out of depression. And they should become real personality.
Do they then stay with OW/OM, and think she/he was part of the "healing"
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Hey Al, hows it going.
I still can't understand any of it, but wish I did, so keep reading.
but majority come trough crisis and generally their persona remain almost same as before crisis, but better then before. Means calm with inner balance, more alive and ofc out of depression. And they should become real personality.
Do they then stay with OW/OM, and think she/he was part of the "healing"
I believe so. Because they believe two things that we are cause of their all problems, and their problems are because bad interpersonal relationship. So, they thinks is our fault why does not work, or we aren't their soul mate, so they project all bad on us and all good on OW / OM. They either hope that OM/OW are their "soul mate" and all problems with their interpersonal relationship vanished with OM/OW. Being with alienator they have to learn on hard way after trying that is because of their inner problems. Means they have to fall in those relationships and finally get it that is about them and their inner problems. Also they are regressed and they continue to develop self from point where they stop developing self. So, I believe they learning on that way.
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Do they then stay with OW/OM, and think she/he was part of the "healing"
NO as long as there is an OW/OM they are still in REPLAY.
They might never get rid of the other person and I have seen that, normally because the LBS has moved on, remarried and there is no other choice.
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OP,
So the end of replay includes:
1) the falling apart of the relationship with OM/OW
2) them hitting rock bottom and being in overt depression
3) them beginning to look inward to identify their pain
Is this right? It makes sense that as long as the OM/OW relationship is good it serves as a medication against bottoming out and looking inward.
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In my H's case, it seemed as though "while he was with/talking/involved" with OW he was not dealing with the issues he needed to deal with, within himself. He was still avoiding it all!!! And at this point "he seems like his old self...but better. For so long I felt as though he was never content, like he was searching for "something" looking outside himself for happiness......
MLC is a DIS-EASE not a disease, does that make sense??
He seems more content right now, hope it continues :):)
31andcounting
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OP,
So the end of replay includes:
1) the falling apart of the relationship with OM/OW
2) them hitting rock bottom and being in overt depression
3) them beginning to look inward to identify their pain
Is this right? It makes sense that as long as the OM/OW relationship is good it serves as a medication against bottoming out and looking inward.
I would say that those are all possibilities.
Of course the end of the other person does not have to be the end of REPLAY or Escape and Avoid, they can just bounce off the bottom and keep looking for something else.
I would say this is especially true for low-energy MLC'ers
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This seems to be true for my MLCer. He seems to be the epitome of low energy wallower.
There was an alienator at bomb drop. Of course he hid that and said it was all about the fact he no longer loved ME. That one didn't work, so he moved on to OW #2 and now willing and available OW #3. He is 3 1/2 years post bomb drop and just now doing some of the things high energy replayers do soon after bomb drop.
That is why watching the MLCer and attempting to determine where he or she may be in the process is such a waste of time. I remember feeling glee when I heard that OW #2 didn't work out.
He just went out and found another one.
This really shows how little this has to do with the OW. It seems that any person who would validate his feelings would do.
As for those who never leave the OW. Does this mean that the MLCer never leaves Replay? I don't know if I believe that. If there is no way to reconnect or reconcile with his or her past (in whatever manner) and the MLCer resigns him or herself to the choices made while in Replay - I think the MLCer may still maneuver through Replay, but is likely to live a sad, depressed life.
I think my BIL is such a person. He did leave the original alienator (after 10 years!), but his ex had remarried and moved on. He later married my sister. Is she an OW? Or an attempt to move forward in his life? He displays no replay. Just low energy wallowing on occasion. He recently visited his hometown to attempt reconnection with his kids. My sister encouraged him to make the trip.
L
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OP, Limitless,
why do you think a low energy MLCer would bounce of the bottom and just find another person more frequently than a high energy replayer?
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why do you think a low energy MLCer would bounce of the bottom and just find another person more frequently than a high energy replayer?
in my case there is NO other person and I have seen no replay antics for a very long time, however escape and avoid continues, IMHO.
What is fueling it I have no idea.
Depression prevails, is the only thing that I know.
Another person is not a requirement to continue Escape and Avoid.
Why they continue to remain in REPLAY, I guess if I could FIX that I would be a millionaire.
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OP, Limitless,
why do you think a low energy MLCer would bounce of the bottom and just find another person more frequently than a high energy replayer?
I don't necessarily think that a low energy MLCer is more likely to find another OW more frequently than a high energy replayer.
I think both are apt to continue to seek out OWs.
The thing is - a high energy replayer (in my opinion - and take that for what it is worth :-\) - may have a propensity to hit a bottom sooner - due to the high energy activity making that MLCer "burn out".
Now that I've written that sentence - does it make any sense?
That in no way means that the High energy replayer will end the crisis any sooner than a low energy wallower. Remember - the end of Replay is NOT the end of the crisis. I'm guessing that the end of replay is just the "beginning of the end."
The crisis lasts as long as it lasts. High energy Replayers - who "burn out" sooner than a low energy wallower - may spend "more time" in Depression/Withdrawal. The "Acceptance" stage may take a long, long time.
Putting time limits on the crisis is really a huge waste of time. One can only look at the entire crisis in retrospect - or - as OP states, in the rear view mirror.
I hope that makes sense
L
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Jung said that one have to reach phase of humility and then he will be able recognize animus / anima. That is crucial for going out of replay imo. Then they pull out projections of animus / anima from everyone.
What that means ? Means they have be beaten by life and then their big narcissistic, egocentric, fantasy ego deflated...
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Jung said that one have to reach phase of humility and then he will be able recognize animus / anima. That is crucial for going out of replay imo. Then they pull out projections of animus / anima from everyone.
What that means ? Means they have be beaten by life and then their big narcissistic, egocentric, fantasy ego deflated...
My MLCer keeps making comments like "I might as well drink the kool-aid" meaning that he should just stop fighting it.
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“When in their ripe years men become effeminate and women belligerent, this is always an indication that a part of the psyche which should be turned inward is directed toward the outside world, that these persons have failed to accord their inner life its due recognition. For we are at the mercy of a contra-sexual partner, unprepared for the surprises he has in store, only so long as we have not recognized his true nature. But we can only perceive this true nature in ourselves, for as a rule we choose a partner who stands for the unconscious part of our psyche. If this part of our personality is made conscious, we cease to impute our own faults to our partner; in other words, the projection is withdrawn. We recover the psychic energy that was bound up in the projection and are able to put it to work for the benefit of our own ego.” JACOBI
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I'm not kidding, (and Snowdrop will back me up ) I read and I think I've got it sussed then I read something like this then my head feels like its on the point of exploding
For we are at the mercy of a contra-sexual partner, unprepared for the surprises he has in store, only so long as we have not recognized his true nature. But we can only perceive this true nature in ourselves, for as a rule we choose a partner who stands for the unconscious part of our psyche.
Albatross,
All good info please keep it coming
Lanzo
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"The individual’s specious unity that emphatically says “I want, I think” breaks down under the impact of the unconscious. So long as the patient can think that somebody else (his father or mother) is responsible for his difficulties, he can save some semblance of unity (putater unus esse!). But once he realizes that he himself has a shadow, that his enemy is in his own heart, then the conflict begins and one becomes two. Since the “other” will eventually prove to be yet another duality, a compound of opposites, the ego soon becomes a shuttlecock tossed between a multitude of “velleties,” with the result that there is an “obfuscation of the light,” i.e., consciousness is depotentiated and the patient is at a loss to know where his personality begins or ends. TPofT 34"
Good Lord ! Until one project of course unconsciously shadow on parents he can save own unity as person. Means one blame one or both parents for his own difficulties in life.
That it is, FOO issues... Until mid age obviously people blame own parents because of their own misery and when they become eventually aware of own shadow withdrawing of projection begins.
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I'm curious to know what you guys think about this:
Recently, H has decided to get rid of all of his 'adult' magazines. He has had these magazines since he was a teenager/young adult. I don't think that he has looked at these in at least 15 years. Do you guys think that there is any significance in his doing this?
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I'm curious to know what you guys think about this:
Recently, H has decided to get rid of all of his 'adult' magazines. He has had these magazines since he was a teenager/young adult. I don't think that he has looked at these in at least 15 years. Do you guys think that there is any significance in his doing this?
Can be grown up signs and closing teenagers page of his life ?
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Albatross,
So is that why they project and blame spouse during MLC, because they have moved on from blaming the parents?
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S4A, I thought what Albatross said was good. IMHO, any reason your H gets rid of 'adult' magazines is probably a good one.
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S4A, I thought what Albatross said was good. IMHO, any reason your H gets rid of 'adult' magazines is probably a good one.
I agree ;) It just seemed odd that he has had them for 20 years and now he is getting rid of them. He also isn't looking at it on the internet much anymore either.
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I agree it could be good :) , maybe he feels a little more " contentment" within his life and does not feel the "need" ... doing away with or getting rid of anything that takes away from a relationship (and I feel those do) is good. No Expectations though :):)
31andcounting
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Albatross,
So is that why they project and blame spouse during MLC, because they have moved on from blaming the parents?
This is EXACTLY what I feel has happened in my situation. My H spent 14 years telling me how his parents D ruined his life, how all his failings were down to his parents and projecting all sorts of stuff onto me. Now, he blames me for everything that he did or didn't do in the last 14 years. He hates me like he hated his step mother.
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Albatross,
So is that why they project and blame spouse during MLC, because they have moved on from blaming the parents?
This is EXACTLY what I feel has happened in my situation. My H spent 14 years telling me how his parents D ruined his life, how all his failings were down to his parents and projecting all sorts of stuff onto me. Now, he blames me for everything that he did or didn't do in the last 14 years. He hates me like he hated his step mother.
My wife blame parents, specifically mother and project misery unconsciously on her. Later she blame only self. Then we clash and I become target of her projections.
Very important thing is that someone who is well balanced cannot be receiver of projection. In time their projection fail because no feedback on that.
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Albatross,
Albatross,
My wife blame parents, specifically mother and project misery unconsciously on her. Later she blame only self. Then we clash and I become target of her projections.
Very important thing is that someone who is well balanced cannot be receiver of projection. In time their projection fail because no feedback on that.
This makes me realize how important it is to be able to detach. Sounds like MLC is a kind of fire that will burn everything it needs to burn. Detaching is a way of not adding more fuel. Thoughts?
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This makes me realize how important it is to be able to detach. Sounds like MLC is a kind of fire that will burn everything it needs to burn. Detaching is a way of not adding more fuel. Thoughts?
Indeed, MLC is total collapse of the one. So, if You are attached You going down with him. Point is that nobody can save him. He later rebuilding self from the scratch. Yes, if You refuse his projections then they aren't effective and in time vanished.
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I have only recently understood the term projection, a friend suggested my h was projecting onto me back when I was pregnant with my daughter and it was the first time I had heard the term. Even now I find it difficult to work out what is projection and what is real. Sometimes my h would say something that I must be thinking or feeling and I would not have the foggiest idea where he got such an idea from. Then I would realise this is what you think and feel, not me atall.
When you say don't take on the projection, what do you mean? What do we have to do avoid projection? Say, "that's a projection" I just don't think quick enough!!!!!
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You have good explanation by RCR HERE (http://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/mlc_shadow_projection.html).
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Albatross,
If a person in MLC hates his persona and tries to kill it because they realize it doesn't work for them any more it would seem like they would be nothing like they were before MLC. I read in the articles that many are much like they were before entering MLC. Why do you think MLC makes them kill their persona and then end up using much of it again? Or do they not have a persona after MLC and just an ego? I think I'm confused. ???
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I reckon so ~ I am not sure, but my H said early on " I don't want to be this way anymore"also "I think what is wrong with us "is me"?!......now he does not remember saying this at all BUT I do. He was in the midst of crisis but until I found this site I did not know it :)
31andcounting
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31andcounting, I too see that my w was in crisis long before bomb drop. She began writing poetry and writing regularly on her blog. One of the things that stood out the most to me was this kind of morbid poem, I guess it was a poem, about God and pruning. I don't know if it was hers or someone else wrote it and she posted it. The title was something like, "maybe pruning is to kind of a word." She said maybe 1-2 years before bomb drop she felt like she was dying. ??? After bomb drop when she was monster she said when she told me she felt like she was dying that I ignored her. She told a friend of hers when she had to shut down a part of her small business, even though I knew how hard it was for her, I just laughed. I promise you, I have not laughed much at all this year and that certainly wasn't something that I did. I have wondered if I am crazy or like Hillary Clinton, just misremembering events. ;D. Any way, I wonder what in the world happened to my wife and will she come back, and if so, what will be be like when she kills something that I thought was pretty awesome. :o
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Albatross,
If a person in MLC hates his persona and tries to kill it because they realize it doesn't work for them any more it would seem like they would be nothing like they were before MLC. I read in the articles that many are much like they were before entering MLC. Why do you think MLC makes them kill their persona and then end up using much of it again? Or do they not have a persona after MLC and just an ego? I think I'm confused. ???
MLCer don't hate own persona, it was metaphoric. He is only aware that his persona does not work anymore. Also merger with shadow brings him other side of self and he actually dissolve persona and he wear it as mask. It is some how dieing part of his ego. That persona later will be modified in reintegration phase.
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A person in final transition (to maturity) is ultimately successful in merging who they believe they are with the mores of society. People in crisis cannot do this for a variety of reasons but, hopefully, in the end (2-7 years theoretically), they too can successfully make the transition. Transition, by definition, means changing into something different than before. Some people retain more of their original self than others, but, for the most part, the new person should be just a better version of the original.
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I do see that my H is "being a much better version of himself" right now at least....he is. If I only knew for sure it would last?? I mean he has gone through sooo many of the "steps" per se.....it is just that underlying "doubt" I have. he is his original self, my kids say it, most family members say it..... he has not been himself for years. So I am working on myself and yes, my doubt and just letting him finish his journey :)
31andcounting
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“Once we have perceived the contrasexual element in ourselves and raised it to consciousness, we have ourselves, our emotions, and affects reasonably well in hand. Above all we have achieved a real independence and with it, to be sure, a certain isolation. In a sense we are alone, for our ‘inward freedom’ means that a love relations can no longer fetter us; the other sex has lost its magic power over us, for we have come to know its essential traits in the depths of our own psyche. We shall not easily ‘fall in love’, for we can no longer lose ourselves in someone else, but we shall be capable of a deeper love, a conscious devotion to the other. For our aloneness does not alienate us from the world, but only places us at a proper distance from it. By anchoring us more firmly in our own nature it even enables us to give ourselves more unreservedly to another human being, because our individuality is no longer endangered. To be sure, it usually takes half a lifetime to arrive at this stage. Probably no one can do so without a struggle. It also takes a full measure of experience, not to mention disappointment.”
- JACOBI
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Hi Albatross
I am reading along with interest, sometimes I read your thread here several times until it sinks in but just to let you know it is so interesting.
For some strange reason I think my h might be at the part where his persona just dissolved, well you never know, please keep the information coming though it is great.
Thanks x
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A person in final transition (to maturity) is ultimately successful in merging who they believe they are with the mores of society. People in crisis cannot do this for a variety of reasons but, hopefully, in the end (2-7 years theoretically), they too can successfully make the transition. Transition, by definition, means changing into something different than before. Some people retain more of their original self than others, but, for the most part, the new person should be just a better version of the original.
I really hope that is the case :) I worry that he will become a better version and he won't want me ??? I think my H has been at this for a lot longer than I can pinpoint; probably a good 2.5 - 3 years before BD.
I know that my H is still in replay or at least escape & avoid; no OW that I can at the moment but what do I know, he doesn't share anything and I don't ask. Such a sad commentary after 16 years. If he has found another OW it is an EA not a PA currently. In some ways I wish he would find one maybe it would help push him through the tunnel some more :o
He has been a lot nicer lately except when he starts talking about how I am going to want to date (it is annoying); having dinner on the table, taking care of chores on his own; it is like he is improving but at the same time saying 'here is what you want but you can't have it'. His body language is still very distancing, it actually speaks volumes. He is conscientiously controlling his physical contact with me.
I just don't know what to think about the things that I am seeing ???
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Accordingly, confrontation with the soul-image is not a task of youth, but of mature years. - Jacobi
In the first half of life contact with the opposite sex aims above all at physical union (babies etc.) … in the 2nd half the essential becomes the psychic CONIUNCTIO, a union with the contrasexual both in the area of one’s own inner world and through the carrier of its image in the outer worlds. - Jacobi
Thus the encounter with the soul-image always means that the first half of life with its necessary adaptation to the outside world and the resulting extroverted orientation of consciousness is ended, and that we must begin to take the most important step of our adaptation to the inner world, namely to confront our own contra-sexual aspect. ‘The activation of the archetype of the soul-image is therefore an event of fateful importance, for it is the most unmistakable sign that the second half of life has begun. Jacobi
As the conscious realization of the shadow makes possible the knowledge of our other, dark side in so far as it pertains to our own sex, so realization of the soul-image enables us to know the contrasexual aspect of our own psyche. The result is an extraordinary enrichment of the contents of consciousness and a great broadening of our personality. Jacobi
What is Jacobi said MLT is imminent for majority people who proceed with psychological development which never stops. Some of us never come trough MLT and rest in previous stage which leads to depression until end of life. For healthy life we have go trough MLT and reorganize self. So far I get it extroverted people should have more problems because they get own life energy from outside, introverted people naturally gain life energy from inner self.
So, every LBS actually losing identity as MLCer does. We have to do own MLT and become whole, centered to balance self as individual and can operate alone. If we achieve that than we can live alone or we can be much better in more mature loving relationships.
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This is just what I am pondering today albatross. How we as lbss tackle our own MLT. We are catapulted into it, we are flailing around in the dark at first but by understanding our partner's crisis we can navigate our own path from the first adulthood into the second.
I have moments of abject fear, total fear of my aloneness and where my direction will be. But I have faith in this transitional phase of life and I know answers will become clear. "Not all who hesitate are lost. The psyche has many secrets in reserve. And these are not disclosed unless required. So it is that sometimes the predicament following an obstinate refusal of the call proves to be the occasion of providential revelation of some unsuspected principle of release." - Joseph Campbell, the hero with a thousand faces ...
And with regard introversion (a trait I relate to) "willed introversion, in fact, is one of the classic implements of creative genius and can be employed as a deliberate device. It drives the psychic energies into depth and activates the lost continent of unconscious infantile and archetypal images." This can lead to an elevated degree of self-consciousness and control.
Campbell talks of the call to adventure. The mlcer has to take up that call, it's compelling and powerful. I see my hs compulsion to forge ahead with his business, "I am meant to do this, I have to do it, it's what I am meant to do" he has said over and over. What I don't understand is why that call to adventure also involved an affair with an employee and a rejection of me and our kids. But then I look to the mlc literature and its clear, it's a rejection of the first adulthood and the potent influence of the parents. My h also told me "you treat me like my parents did, you make me feel like my parents did." The pressure to live responsibly and consider others, particularly loved ones. He demonised his parents and blamed them throughout his first adulthood and now, in crisis, demonises and blames me. Fits with replay I think.
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"In so far as the anima is equivalent to the soul, which as is well known represents the life principle, the separation from the object of projection naturally results in a loss of soul and life. As long as the anima is so completely projected, the soul is also still externalized and for that reason, the individual is endangered."
That is the reason why MLCers are soulless at beginning. Their anima/animus is withdrawn from us and their shadow project all bad in their life in us, then they have to project anima/animus on someone else.
LBS also going to crash for same reason.
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Each of us have parts of parents personalities, means our personality is build on parents personalities and other significant people during our life, mostly of our spouses to. So, we are like plant, everything what happen to us during life affect us more then we can imagine. When tree grow you can see on them all scars from the past. It is similar with us. All bad feelings, good feelings, memories stored in us, mostly in subconsciousness. Anyway our behavior and functioning is build on that. And we believe that we simply are like we are. But it is wrong, we can be whatever we want. Point is that we can't erase any of those bad memories, bad feelings, they are in us for eternity. So, we will never able to get rid of that in us. But what we can is actually being in charge conscientiously, means get rid of complexes, which are results of traumas from our past. Complex is autonomous part of us and when triggered we acting out from our shadow, and that is not pleasant at all. It is destructive to others and to us. We have to spot them and confront them. How ? When similar traumatic situation happens in present our complex triggered and we acting out our shadow material without our consciousness will. In such situation we have to be aware of that and simply don't REACT. Several scenarios can be applied, only listen other person which trigger our complex, process later all that feelings which we felt and rationally late respond about issue to other person. After that we will feel that we are in control of self and that make us stronger ! In time complex will diminish and we will become stronger and stronger and feel much better. In time emotions triggered by complex will be lower and lower and ultimately complex will be disconnected but still all those bad experiences and bad memories and bad feeling will be still in us but not any more AUTONOMOUS ! And we will not anymore possessed by complex or more of them which was autonomous, and on that way we will not anymore possessed by own shadow.
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Thanks Albatross. Will start to out that in place when next facing my husband!
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Anyway our behavior and functioning is build on that. And we believe that we simply are like we are. But it is wrong, we can be whatever we want. Point is that we can't erase any of those bad memories, bad feelings, they are in us for eternity. So, we will never able to get rid of that in us. But what we can is actually being in charge conscientiously, means get rid of complexes, which are results of traumas from our past. Complex is autonomous part of us and when triggered we acting out from our shadow, and that is not pleasant at all. It is destructive to others and to us. We have to spot them and confront them. How ? When similar traumatic situation happens in present our complex triggered and we acting out our shadow material without our consciousness will. In such situation we have to be aware of that and simply don't REACT.
I think this is what frustrates us all; if our MLCer would acknowledge the crisis/transition they wouldn't be so reactive. It is obvious that MLC is driven by emotions, you can see it very clearly. I have always understood that to be conscious of your feelings will help to keep them in check; where as to be unconscious of them they run wild and you become reactive.
I read somewhere that male menopause or MLC (which ever you want to call it) is like the man getting ALL of their periods at once where as woman get a little bit all of the time until menopause. I can see where a lifetime of PMS hitting the man all at once would make them crazy ::) but I can't help to think that if they understood even a little bit of this cycle they could navigate it better.
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Searching4Answers, I agree completely, but the problem is they will not look at themselves or what "is happening to them" until much further into the process, if at all:) My H did say that his hormones could be playing a part some......But it was after OW was out of the pic and he was out of replay...thinking clearer. They have to be ready to look within themselves :( when they are understanding that this whole thing was never about LBS....and that is wayyyyy down the road.
all seems so simple, unless your in crisis :)
31andcounting
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Searching4Answers, I agree completely, but the problem is they will not look at themselves or what "is happening to them" until much further into the process, if at all:) My H did say that his hormones could be playing a part some......But it was after OW was out of the pic and he was out of replay...thinking clearer. They have to be ready to look within themselves :( when they are understanding that this whole thing was never about LBS....and that is wayyyyy down the road.
all seems so simple, unless your in crisis :)
31andcounting
31andcounting, how long was your H in replay? Was he high energy?
IRS
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Searching4Answers, I agree completely, but the problem is they will not look at themselves or what "is happening to them" until much further into the process, if at all:)
I believe that they are so low that they thinks, better word is feel that they have nothing to lose, means that they can't drop lower... But of course they are wrong. I believe that they can feel only proto emotions like anger and fear. And they believe that whole world is guilty for their situation. So, they are walking death people without soul, they are like wounded animals, means very defensive and expecting attack from everyone. They can't love self so, they don't care what happening to them.
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I reckon so -my H was in replay 2 years after BD with EA and he was in a previous EA for at least 2 years prior.......with a little time "off" before the second. She and her husband were our "friends " .......it was about 6 years I'd say. I never knew about the first one and I watched the second one develop in front of my eyes:( could not stop it from happening!
31
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I reckon so -my H was in replay 2 years after BD with EA and he was in a previous EA for at least 2 years prior.......with a little time "off" before the second. She and her husband were our "friends " .......it was about 6 years I'd say. I never knew about the first one and I watched the second one develop in front of my eyes:( could not stop it from happening!
31
Wow, that is a long time! I am assuming he left home for a while. You are a very strong person to have made it through the journey.
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I could not agree more S4A, this board is filled with people that amaze me!
Albatross, you talked earlier about the shadow being in dreams. My wife has been one to remember many of her dreams. After BP and while she was in strong replay and monster, she told me about 6 months into it that she thought it was strange that she hadn't either had a dream or didn't remember any dreams in many months. Do you think it was because the shadow was controlling her and monster was loosed and so the shadow was finding all of the expression it needed? I remember thinking at the time she said it that it was very unusual for her not to have tumultuous dreams while she was behaving so mean and selfish, but after reading about the shadow maybe that why she wasn't having dreams. She was living out the nightmare during the day. Any thoughts?
Thanks, IRS
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Searching I am pretty strong. I guess:) As are you:) a lot of it early on was " just off" I did not really know "what" was wrong with us????? It has been 3 1/2 long years since BD.....lots of truth's have come out not everything yet but its getting better everyday.
31andcounting
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I could not agree more S4A, this board is filled with people that amaze me!
Albatross, you talked earlier about the shadow being in dreams. My wife has been one to remember many of her dreams. After BP and while she was in strong replay and monster, she told me about 6 months into it that she thought it was strange that she hadn't either had a dream or didn't remember any dreams in many months. Do you think it was because the shadow was controlling her and monster was loosed and so the shadow was finding all of the expression it needed? I remember thinking at the time she said it that it was very unusual for her not to have tumultuous dreams while she was behaving so mean and selfish, but after reading about the shadow maybe that why she wasn't having dreams. She was living out the nightmare during the day. Any thoughts?
Thanks, IRS
Everyone have dreams every sleeping. Usualy people dont remember what they dream except they awaken from some reason or they dream some kind of nightmare. I believe that she is insomniac, because people in severe depression can't sleep. So no dreams or they are so tired and what have some sleep is deep so also can't remember what they dream about.
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`The persona, the ideal picture of a man as he should be, is inwardly compensated by feminine weakness, and as the individual outwardly plays the strong man, so he becomes inwardly a woman (anima), for it is the anima that reacts to the persona.'
We may term the persona the mediating function between the ego and the outside world and the soul-image the corresponding mediating function between the ego and the inner world.
As long as an Individual does not know his Shadow, the Unconscious will be predominately feminine, and vice-versa.
When the Persona is too rigid and solely differentiated, the anima will represent a mixture of the Auxiliary, Tertiery, and Inferior functions.
When the 2 accessory functions are developed, the anima stands out.
The more one is dominated by the Persona, the more the anima remains in the darkness.
One of the most typical manifestations of both figures is what has long been called "animosity".
Thus the insinuations of the anima, the mouthpiece of the unconscious, can utterly destroy a man. …
... for when a man recognizes that his ideal persona is responsible for his anything but ideal anima, his ideals are shattered, the world becomes ambiguous, he becomes ambiguous even to himself. He is seized by doubts about goodness, and what is worse, he doubts his own good intentions.
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`The persona, the ideal picture of a man as he should be, is inwardly compensated by feminine weakness, and as the individual outwardly plays the strong man, so he becomes inwardly a woman (anima), for it is the anima that reacts to the persona.'
So in replay it is the anima that is demanding attention but since the anima is not the persona or ideal picture the MLCer fights against it? Does the strong man feel shame because of the anima?
... for when a man recognizes that his ideal persona is responsible for his anything but ideal anima, his ideals are shattered, the world becomes ambiguous, he becomes ambiguous even to himself. He is seized by doubts about goodness, and what is worse, he doubts his own good intentions.
That is a very powerful image! I see my H doubting his own good intentions ??? It really it is an identity crisis.
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The peace of dissolving the persona's grasp does not last long however and without our noticing – the archetypes (which have been there all the time and will always be there) take up a newer, more entrenched position in the psychic void. Archetypes even fill your head with such flattering as “Wow, look at you, - you made it! You’re clearly destined for great divinity”, etc. They praise and tell you how wonderful you are; even creating Messianic complexes that make you believe you are truly special and that you are the chosen one. Although dissolution of the Persona is a great personal achievement, it is only a stage, because the Archetypes bring a similar, but greater challenge.
“The most intense conflicts, if overcome, leave behind a sense of security and calm which is not easily disturbed, or else a brokenness that can hardly be healed. Conversely, it is just these intense conflicts and their conflagration which are needed in order to produce valuable and lasting results”.
MLCers struggle with animus/anima , Shadow and as You can see in bold text they can solve issues and moving forward or stuck broken. In time they may learn how to do it. Anyway issues are so deep and need TIME.
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I am sensing some of this with H at the moment , the shadow is winning and H seems convinced that this is the person he was always meant to be.
He used to say to me that I was in love with the idea of him not the real him , he used to test my love quite often . It is very clear to see now and it must have frustrated him no end that I always confirmed my love for him .
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Callang my h told me he was becoming the man he always should have been. My father tells me I fell in love with the idea of my h not my actual h! How weird you have said these things, it seems everyone is reading from this script!
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It is weird TT, I used to get annoyed with H when he said it because I loved him , not some image I had of him .
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Sounds like insecurity to me, does he have abandonment issues?
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Hi TT
He as huge abandoment issues , this whole crisis came about because he though I did not love him (in his head) and therefore he saboutaged the marriage so that he could be the one to leave, he has a history of this behaviour . We used to call it his self destruct button .
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Hi TT
He as huge abandoment issues , this whole crisis came about because he though I did not love him (in his head) and therefore he saboutaged the marriage so that he could be the one to leave, he has a history of this behaviour . We used to call it his self destruct button .
It is part of MLCers script. How they can't love they think that other people are like them so, they assume that we don't love them either. That is part of rationalizations which then release them from guilt, ie. "He/she does not love me, so I can now find someone who will."
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So do they bring the moodiness, forgetfulness, sullen withdrawl and brooding into the relationship with PW?
Or do they wear the perpetual bliss mask while in this fake bandaid relationship?
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So do they bring the moodiness, forgetfulness, sullen withdrawl and brooding into the relationship with PW?
Or do they wear the perpetual bliss mask while in this fake bandaid relationship?
They wear mask with them. But they actually have a lot masks for different people. And they want to show self in best way what they could do. And they believe that they are good, that they aren't depressed. And also idolize OM/OW.
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Hi Sobeit!
I have a different view of the mask and the time spent with OW based on my own situations and observations which differs from that of Albatross.
If I may comment on your question? In my experience with J and with my Genius, the answer is an absolute yes, they bring these lovely ;) traits into the other relationship. And the answer is also no. It depends on the situation.
If I may explain what I mean?
If the MLCer is in a manic phase, the traits are subdued/hidden. The happy mask is in place.
But to OW, at other times, he lets it all hang out in my experience. She will get to experience the sullenness and nastiness. After a manic phase with Genius, I said to him, "Hey Great! She gets the best side of you, the fun side and I get h*ll." He looked so puzzled and replied, "What makes you think this is the best side of me? I don't take her sh*t ever, she gets what I give her and is happy to get that. Lucky to get that. She does what I say when I say." I only meant that she and he did some fun things that I would have always wanted to try. I certainly did not mean the moods. But I thought the comment was telling anyhow.
With J, he showed the OW the whole dark side in spades. He said, "I was confused. If OW could not find my car keys, I yelled and threw things. If she cried I didn't car, and would tell her shut the f*ck up and do her job, keep track of my keys. If I forgot something she better remember it. If I wanted quiet, she better make it happen. Kids or no kids.
The OW may not know they were once different since she does not know him as well. He has always been like this with her, so that is just the way he is to her. The OW is just so damaged she puts up with it and expects it. He chose her because she is weak and will put up with it I suppose.
In any case, I have seen the mask put on in seconds, and removed just as quickly. OW or no other woman with both my Genius and J. Some act that way with family, siblings, parents, children and at work as well.
Just my experience. Yours may be completely different but somehow I doubt it.
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The OW may not know they were once different since she does not know him as well. He has always been like this with her, so that is just the way he is to her. The OW is just so damaged she puts up with it and expects it. He chose her because she is weak and will put up with it I suppose.
This has also been my experience; I know that H treated her poorly. I couldn't understand what she saw him, then I realized that she was just as screwed up as he was. H will use her in any way he sees fit and she is so desperate that she wants it :o It looks like H is seeing her again - he left her to try to and work things out with me and she is taking him back, wow. Granted who knows what he is telling her.
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My MlCer is lovely to ow I think. She apparently adores him and vice versa. I don't get any impression he is ever taking his moods out on anyone but me! My MiL reports that he is exhausted when she sees him, she doesn't see him much though. The mask is on with everyone else.
MLCer is rude and ignorant to me.
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Hi Toughtimes,
In my experience it is easy to believe they are angels to OP, that they adore each other and such. Perhaps that is true in your case, but perhaps that is the mask he wishes to show to you and the public currently. We never really know what goes on behind closed doors until much later in the process I believe based on my experience. For example, I would have sworn J loved OW very much. But he made her do disgusting things, demeaned her often, and physically abused her as was revealed later in their relationship.
OW still adores him to this day and would take him back into her home if he would but say the word.
Interesting you mention the exhausted point. Genius was always exhausted when he was at his mother's house. It was in response to his manic behavior prior and the feeling of going home to momma and safety when he was there. He could let his guard down, let his mask slip and be a child again with mommy looking out for him for a few hours.
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We never really know what goes on behind closed doors until much later in the process I believe based on my experience. For example, I would have sworn J loved OW very much. But he made her do disgusting things, demeaned her often, and physically abused her as was revealed later in their relationship.
OW still adores him to this day and would take him back into her home if he would but say the word.
I don't know much about the current situation with H and OW1 but before it sounded very similar to lawprofessors description. I know that my H is using any women he can to fulfill his fantasies; he has no respect for them, I don't even know if he has any respect for himself anymore :o Maybe that is why he is so disrespectful to me................projecting?
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NEW REPLAY - #5 TOPIC (http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=4818.0)