Midlife Crisis: Support for Left Behind Spouses
Archives => Archived Topics => Topic started by: StillStanding on November 07, 2014, 04:26:10 AM
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A short but clever video from Buzzfeed: "What People With Depression Want You To Know"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IQr1G1OOEEQ
EDIT: I split this off from the other thread because I didn't want this discussion to get lost. -SS
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Thanks for sharing. One comment that jumped out at me:
"I'm not trying to hurt you"
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Thanks for sharing. One comment that jumped out at me:
"I'm not trying to hurt you"
This was Hoss' catch phrase (often spouted at illogical times). It's the underlying message he wanted me to get. Neat that it comes in here at 1:11. :)
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i got i didn't want to hurt you, that's why he said he lied. i said well the lying hurt more than the truth since i knew you were lying to me. he stopped lying to me about things after it all came out when he moved out. he has been super honest to a degree that sometimes i wish he would not say something. but i don't discourage it because it is a huge step for him to be this honest with me so i see it as a good thing in a way and i hope it sticks cause if we ever reconnect or reconcile he is going to need to be this honest for it to work.
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It was also Mr J catch phrase until it changed to “I’m just trying to get rid of you”.
However I think the MLCer is trying to hurt us. Deliberately. Even RCR writes about it. The MLC will deliberately try to hurt (and disgust) the LBS, so that we quit.
It is possible that very early on they are not trying to hurt the LBS, but that changes. Or for some it changes. The problem is that early on they managed to hurt the LBS then the LBS becomes indifferent.
“I’m not feeling sorry for myself” – this one I do not think it is true. Depressed people do feel sorry for themselves. Just like our MLCers.
“I take medication to balance the chemicals in my brain” – unlike our MLCers.
“I take responsibility for myself just like any other person” – unlike our MLCers.
MLC is not like normal depression. Normal depressed people do not have the energy to replay, do not have the energy to plot, to drag divorces, etc. They are just depressed, or, if medicated, even and acting normal.
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in the beginning he was trying to hurt me as much as possible. he would say horrible things, call me pathetic and boring, that he only stayed because of the kids, he never loved me, all kinds of awful things. but the more i changed and didn't react the less it became and now it doesn't happen at all.
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Anjae writes:
"However I think the MLCer is trying to hurt us. Deliberately"
I would not generalize that all MLCers do this. Some might others do not. They just want out and to be left alone.
There is an ad for antidepressants in the US that says "depression hurts". Let's have compassion for all those who suffer from this, MLC or not.
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However I think the MLCer is trying to hurt us. Deliberately. Even RCR writes about it. The MLC will deliberately try to hurt (and disgust) the LBS, so that we quit.
Yes, yes, yes. At least mind did. She went out of her way to hurt me. It was very, very deliberate. Even after moving out. And after the divorce. She'd find out where I was just to show up and try to hurt me. The only reason it stopped was because I stopped giving her the reaction she was looking for (hurt, pain, sadness, disappointment, confusion, etc). If I still flinched every time she came my way, she'd still be doing it. This is why it is so important to grow. If we act like victims, they will continue to victimize us.
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If you prefer Xyzcf, many MLCers/some MLCers try to heart the LBS deliberately. Do not remember RCR exact words (sadly I lack DGU photographic memory) on the subject but it was something like your MLCer may try to hurt you so that you give up/leave them alone.
The thing is, for me, compassion and indifference are not compatible. Compassion for me presupposes that I still care/have some sort of attachment. Indifference means exactly it, I’m indifferent. Compassion means one has to feel the other person suffering and for that one needs to be engaged. Indifference does not allow for engagement. It allows for detachment and distance.
I’m sorry it that is offensive to you but I’ve come to a point where I really I’m indifferent. A point that is probably necessary given the circumstances.
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I have heard both from my MLCer, believe it or not (and I am sure it is not hard to believe ::)).
There have been a couple of times where he has said something along the lines of not meaning to cause hurt for others (and yet, of course, he has not stopped making choices that do so). Bear in mind that his sentiment wasn't remorse in any way, shape, or form. At the time, he was feeling sorry for himself so it was about the way it was making HIM feel, rather than being sorry that WE were hurting.
On the flip side, I distinctly remember one other time when he was pushing divorce that he basically asked what it would take to get me to give up. And yes, he was monstering quite a bit at that time. He was deliberately trying to hurt me.
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On the flip side, I distinctly remember one other time when he was pushing divorce that he basically asked what it would take to get me to give up. And yes, he was monstering quite a bit at that time. He was deliberately trying to hurt me.
My xw was upset that I wouldn't sign the separation agreement. She knew it hurt me when I found out about her infidelity. She called me one morning on the way to work and basically said, "I know you don't tolerate cheating. I'll go **** him again. Will you sign then?"
Very deliberate. And still painful to recollect.
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Very deliberate. And still painful to recollect.
Uggh, how awful. And I can imagine a conversation you will never be able to forget. I know I won't forget what my husband said to me.
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Do not remember RCR exact words (sadly I lack DGU photographic memory) on the subject but it was something like your MLCer may try to hurt you so that you give up/leave them alone.
RCR's article "Love & Hate"
An MLCer's actions can be cruel because their aim is for pain with the intention of hurting you so that you will hate them, lose hope and give them what they want.
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Thank you, DGU. :) Since you were so kind to post the article name, here is the link to the whole article to all those interested: http://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/mlc_understanding-infidelity_love-and-hate.html
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Ok, all I was saying is not every MLCer deliberately tries to hurt the LBSer. In the quote from RCR's article she uses the words "can be cruel" not all will be.
In the same article, as she discusses the MLCer's depression which she considers real as she states:
In a state of depression Self love lies buried beneath rubble and until it surfaces the MLCer is incapable of showing love for anything or anyone. There is no caring substance, understanding this can help you to avoid interpreting the lack of caring making it personal. It is not personal; he is dead inside.
A person who is dead inside IMHO is not capable of deliberately doing anything. They are truly in survival mode and although their actions may feel cruel, they may indeed NOT be deliberate in their actions to hurt us.
Since they do all kinds of strange and weird things, I think that the LBSer must always remember that this is not about them. The destruction that they cause is fueled by the MLCers desperate attempt to stop the pain that is raging inside of them. The LBSer is often collateral damage in the war that is going on inside of the MLCer, in effect, we are the innocent bystanders in all this mess.
In looking at things from this view point, the LBSer is truly able to "let go" of the anger, rage and bitterness that will destroy the LBSer if it is allowed to remain unresolved within indefinitely. The energy spent in feeling as though you are somehow the target for his/her crisis will be dissipated and you will be free to embrace life without your loved one and move forward towards peace in your own world.
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All very true, xyzcf. That is a very healthy way to look at it and find peace in this situation. However, there is a little bit of cognitive dissonance here. Something is deliberate. It took too much planning, secrecy and rebellion to pull off what my xw and most MLCers do. The running is deliberate. In my xw's case, the cheating was. She chased him and gave herself to him on a silver platter. My xw didn't just fall out of bed into a brand new apartment -- lights, water, cable and gas turned on with brand new furniture -- while I'm scrambling to save the house from foreclosure after she didn't pay the mortgage for several months without me knowing. Could she have been hoarding the mortgage and utilities money to save for her apartment? I can't force myself to entertain that thought right now but if that's the case, then that is certainly deliberate.
Methinks the pictures she posted on her facebook page of her apartment and her keys weeks before she told me she was moving out was deliberately cruel and secretive at the same time. She cut me out of her life and when I pointed it out to her she said, "that's intentional." She took the truck, chose not to pay the loan and eventually had it repossessed. The very next day, she is driving a brand new Acura TL. She has deliberately not told me about it to this very day, two months later. She only owed $2300 to get the truck back. How can she pay for a car? That took planning and deliberately turning a blind eye to any damage to me and my credit rating.
So...I'm not sure where that leaves us. I agree that she is dead inside. I believe she is not in control of herself. I don't know all of the why's and the how's. I know this isn't my wife. I also know her actions...or the way she has acted...or the way she was influenced to act...was definitely deliberate.
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I think they do it on purpose..they enjoy it...a sense of power and control..maybe to punish...I think they are on an emotional rampage..and the LBS is their easiest target
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I'm fairly certain that mine is in a depression as well as MLC. His aunt was the one who told me she thought he was in a depression because she said she recognized things in him from when she had depression. She has told me some about depression and what it's like and she says there are days when you can barely feel like functioning for yourself, much less put forth any effort toward anyone else. She also said that you don't know that you are in it or need help unless someone tells you and for her, her friend had to mention it several times before it even registered that she should do something about it. I don't think there is intent to hurt someone in depression.
MLC...I think there can be. They don't want us to be there and be nice. They want us to hate them so they have the excuse to move on. I am with the 2nd MLCer of my life...yep I got two of them...lucky me! :o ::) My first one does not care whatsoever if he hurts me. He's the dad of my kids and didn't even remember to call my daughter for her birthday. He's been in MLC since he left in 2005. I could tell stories up to wazoo of all the dumb things he's said or done in the last 9.5 years. I got to thinking the other day that it's hard to imagine ever loving that particular man. He is an alcoholic so he was only brave enough to hurt me when he had a few drinks. At this point in dealing with him, I don't think he intends to hurt...just does not care one way or another. I do think in his case that his current, 20years younger, wife feeds him a lot of what he says to me. He's really not brave enough to cause conflict on his own. It's either alcohol or wife induced with him.
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I go between he has/is out to hurt me with the things he is saying/doing because he hates himself and he needs to transfer that hate somewhere else or because he needs to have me angry or emotional towards him so that he can justify what he is doing or feeling.
I know that some of the things he has done he knows exactly the effect it is going to have on me and it is not positive. He knows. I just don't know if he knows why he is doing it or if he can stop himself.
I think that is part of the depression. Not really being in control of his proper thoughts and that leads to making decisions that hurts those who love you or surround you.
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I think it's important to remember we still have the power to control our own experience, and do not have to accept as our fate the hurt they inflict, intended or not. Just like with a teen who is hormonal and will react with extreme emotions to test boundaries or try to grasp at control, there does not have to be a blind acceptance that their will is law. That's where, if we're in contact with them, responding not reacting comes into play, and keeping a 40 foot view of the situation so we're not thrown to and fro in their spiral. And if we choose (or have chosen for us, with our vanishers) to not be in contact, this sometimes goes a long way to actually stop the hurts from happening, and strangely enough, protect the love we have for them from the damage the replay behavior inflicts.
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I think of the hurt and pain my h has put me and my kids through- and continues to do but I know he loves his kids so I don't think he's deliberately trying to hurt them- I really don't ...my h is dead inside, my kids therapist told me that after meeting with him 2x! I think because he has no emotion or real feelings that he doesn't understand that me and my kids do!! He has the same anger directed at me and my kids so I really don't think it's deliberate -
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My experience is that its a combination. Early on, I tried antidepressants and had the "pleasure" of the bad reaction. He came home from work and took care of me as best he could. The next morning, he piled all his camping gear I'm the garage because he was taking OW camping. When I saw everything, I started sobbing. He heard me and asked what was wrong. He honestly didn't seem to understand that what he was doing was so painful, particularly since 24 hours before I was having suicidal thoughts. At other times, I know he wanted to hurt me. We seem to be in the place where he is being deliberately cruel to push me away. I haven't yet shared the fact that I'm done.
I suspect that their guilt plays a large role in pushing them to behave in ways that are so cruel. If they keep upping the ante, we will get fed up and leave, giving them what they want and theoretically relieving their guilt. I'm watching mine struggle with this as we wend our way through mediation. Sometimes he's very generous (a benefit of the guilt) and other times he's horrible and selfish. Curiously, at our last session, he was trying to renegotiate the spousal support then deflated somewhat and said his problem with it is the term. I guess in his mind, he doesn't want the idea of paying his former spouse every month for the next 13 years.
As far as compassion, I think we can have that on a strictly human level. I feel for the guy: he's a mess. I wish him no harm and hope he comes through this garbage reasonably intact. But that compassion is similar to the compassion I feel for any being in pain.
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This is an interesting discussion and I also feel that my h. has not deliberately tried to hurt me, in fact, when he has lashed out at me, he has apologized for being rude or angry. Nowadays, he has very little interaction with me but when it occurs, he is generally kind and polite, very distant.
However, what xyzcf quotes here is much more difficult for me to see...
In a state of depression Self love lies buried beneath rubble and until it surfaces the MLCer is incapable of showing love for anything or anyone. There is no caring substance, understanding this can help you to avoid interpreting the lack of caring making it personal. It is not personal; he is dead inside.
A person who is dead inside IMHO is not capable of deliberately doing anything. They are truly in survival mode and although their actions may feel cruel, they may indeed NOT be deliberate in their actions to hurt us.
You see, my h. is a very affectionate, loving person. A softie, if you like :) Anybody can twist him around their little finger and he is very demonstrative in his affections. This has not changed, except in relation to me :'(
This is what makes me doubt MLC, when I see his overt affection towards OW, her kids, his friends, our children, his sisters and brother.... work colleagues, etc. This is what hooks our kids.
And, this is probably one of the things that most hurts me - I wonder if it is deliberate and his distancing is a way of avoiding his affectionate feelings for me (since OW probably would not approve).
Just pondering... a little confused ???
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In my case, I can see how it is deliberate and at the same time she didn't want to hurt me.
My xw's bff has herpes and copd. She has been divorced three times. Her second husband persuaded her into the swinging lifestyle which resulted in them both contracting herpes. Her second husband also molested both daughters and gave them herpes. Now bff has three husbands that hate her and she has a love/hate relationship with both daughters because they feel like she turned a blind eye to their abuse. This is a woman filled with self-hate and rage underneath her "friendly" exterior. My xw went to her depressed (empty) and became a tool for bff to act out her secret rage. I became the target. Misery loves company so bff slowly pulled xw away from me and the kids. It was easy since my xw was so empty inside. Yet at the same time, bff would have had no influence over xw without xw already wanting to escape in the first place.
So I can see both sides. When you are empty...well, not empty. When you are harboring self-hate, disgust and regret, you become susceptible to bad influences -- other people, bad habits, self-medication, ect. It's very hard to turn toward truth (light) when you are overrun with bad emotions (secrecy, darkness). This is why they turn to others instead of their loving spouses. The "others" they turn to are most likely people they can bond with (i.e. living in darkness themselves). My xw talked to quite a few people behind my back early on. She disregarded people that tried to get her to see the truth and turned toward the one person that fed into what she wanted to believe in the first place.
I suspect that their guilt plays a large role in pushing them to behave in ways that are so cruel. If they keep upping the ante, we will get fed up and leave, giving them what they want and theoretically relieving their guilt.
I think this is a very good explanation.
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I agree with Medusa that it is a combination and I also think her explanation of their guilt pushing them to be cruel is spot on. One time recently he said,"I was thinking. If you moved out, dated someone for 4 months and then started dating someone else, I would be like, F you, have a nice life". I know there are times where he is doing something and he is obviously pushing for a reaction; if he doesn't get it, he will throw out some bait to make sure I am still there. There were times when he lived at home, however, where he said and did very cruel things but seemed to have no awareness of it. I would point it out to him and he would say with wonderment, "Why don't I see this?". It wasn't an act. As a matter of fact, I think if I reminded him of some of it now he would have no memory of it, would deny it with genuine disbelief.
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I suspect that their guilt plays a large role in pushing them to behave in ways that are so cruel. If they keep upping the ante, we will get fed up and leave, giving them what they want and theoretically relieving their guilt.
This also sums it up for me.
My xW went out of her way to be cruel and hurtful to get me to react in a bad way to add a bit of meat to her bogus break up story. It sounds much better to her assembled audience if she could say "Lanzo walked out on me" or "Lanzo was abusive to me." Towards the end a lot stuff went over my head but D13 started to notice it.
The last bad thing xW did after we had an argument in the house was to soak my bed and duvet with water, call the police to say I had abused her then ran of to her mothers house. Funny thing was when the police interviewed her and asked if I had hit her she said "No, but he's not afraid to". ( ::) was the reaction of the police).
So yes, I follow the school of thought that they know that they are hurting us.
Lanzo
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There were times when he lived at home, however, where he said and did very cruel things but seemed to have no awareness of it. I would point it out to him and he would say with wonderment, "Why don't I see this?". It wasn't an act. As a matter of fact, I think if I reminded him of some of it now he would have no memory of it, would deny it with genuine disbelief.
You are so correct on this. I haven't thought of that in awhile. My husband was the same. He would mock me, imitate me in a cruel way ... . I have brought them up later when he was in a better frame and I thought he was cycling towards me or in counselling and he honestly looked shocked and had no real memory. Or if he did, he would try to brush it away with that we both said and did crazy things then.
Some times I thought he was in fight for your life battle when I was around. He had to be cruel to save himself kind of thing. He did say to me one night after he took a good round out of me emotionally and I was crying beyond crying - "you make me be a d!ck to you". I remember looking at him in total shock and confusion. Like how, like why do I make you? I am begging you to get help, to think your thoughts through. I am telling you how much I love you, want you, need you and this makes you be this cruel to me.
I think that was the night I decided he must have a brain tumour - what else could it be?
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FWIW, my husband is pretty far along in his crisis (six years, so let's hope we are at least heading into the home stretch. Won't hold my breath). Recently during a "conversation" we were having (no rational conversations with an MLC, unfortunately), I happened to mention a few of the particularly horrible or irrational things he has said over the past few years, things which certainly seemed intentionally and deliberately said. He has absolutely no recollection of them. None. He even said that he would never say something like that.
They are just crazy.
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I believe in the beginning that they are trying to hurt us, but I believe they are doing it for two reasons.
First, is that they associate us with their pain, that has been manifesting itself inside, for potentially years. As we all know, people who love other people can pay a high price for that closeness. Remember they are seeing us as a reflection of themselves and as such, they are very angry at themselves, thus the reason for the projection that they throw at us. We have a choice to let it get to us or not. In the outset, we are in shock and denial, not knowing what is going on. The MLCer has the upper hand, through confusion and manipulation. But, as time progresses, we gain the upper hand, if we learn and grow. We understand them and are able to diffuse the situation through love, understanding, compassion and detachment. They then lose all of the power that they had in the beginning. We have to also remember that they are playing a game with us, by trying to incite us through threats, manipulation and lies. Once we learn the game and respond instead of react, we take away all of their power.
Secondly they are attempting to hurt us in order to distance themselves from the intense pain and confusion that they have within themselves. We have to look at them as being an injured animal. Any animal that is injured has a natural tendency to lash out at anything and anyone that comes too close. They are only trying to protect themselves in their weakened state. MLCer's are doing the same thing, they are trying to protect themselves from further pain, by making sure that no one sees them in a weakened state. The state that they are in is pretty sorry, indeed. They have no sense of self, no hope, no joy, just nothingness. That has to be a very scary place to be in and since we have no frame of reference because we haven't experienced the same thing, there is really no way for us to understand what they are experiencing. All we see is the anger, the vicious attacks and the running away from everything that they used to be and hold near and dear to themselves. We take it as a personal attack on us, when in fact it isn't, but that is our perception. There is no way we can get in their messed up minds to really see what they see or feel what they feel. As you can see in many of the stories on this forum, as time passes and the LBS learns the game and how to respond and the MLCer gets further along in the process, things begin to change, most of the time for the better.
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First, is that they associate us with their pain, that has been manifesting itself inside, for potentially years. As we all know, people who love other people can pay a high price for that closeness. Remember they are seeing us as a reflection of themselves and as such, they are very angry at themselves, thus the reason for the projection that they throw at us.
I think you are absolutely right about that.
I will say, too, that we know them better than anyone on the planet. And during MLC, they don't like that at all.
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MLC is permeated with depression however I do not think all MLCer are that dead inside that they are incapable of deliberately plot hurtful things. Normal depressed people lack the energy that MLC, at least high energy MLC, requires. MLCer are perfectly capable of leaving a marriage, get a lawyer, file for divorce, get a new house, live with OW/OM, have lots of energy activities and so on. Normal depressed people can barely get out of bed.
When Mr J had normal depression, as a result of physical exhaustion, a think that has also happened to be, he had no energy at all. He did not leave, he did not do any damages. MLC is a different sort of depression. MLCers tend to be driven by hate and hate is a powerful energy.
Since, like Neo said, they do not manage (or at least for a while they don't) to separate the LBS from themselves, they see us has being them and some of them do all they can to hurt us, since we are them and they hate themselves.
This said, someone who many years down the road is still trying to hurt the LBS, still hasn't managed to see that we are separate people, is still living on fight or flight mode is a not only a very damaged, but also a very dangerous person. Like Neo says, they are like a hurt scared animal. Hurt scared animals are extremely dangerous and trust no one.
If anything the guilt should refrain them from doing cruel things. But it seems to have the opposite effect. Since they may feel guilty but carry on doing hurtful things, they only keep adding more guilt. It is a vicious, long lasting circle.
Where I disagree is on the affection and on the hope. There is no shortage of MLCers capable of showing and being affectionate with OW/OM, OW/OM children, with several OW/OM for those who have more than one, with new friends, etc. They can even go to lengths of affection and generosity that they did not had towards the LBS. And MLCers have hope. At least mine has. For he and OW, for his new life, etc.
Not really, Neo. As the LBS learns the game, years go by and in several cases nothing changes. Let alone for the better. Just see how many of us have spouses in crisis for more than 5 years, some who, even after so long, are still using manipulative angry tactics, often legal ones. If only it was so simple as the LBS learning the game and things changing for the better.
I will say, too, that we know them better than anyone on the planet. And during MLC, they don't like that at all.
Do we? Or did we knew before the crisis hit and took a deep turn? At least I have long stop knowing Mr J at all. Even in MLC he may know me better than I know him. I have changed but not the way he did.
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My xw's bff has herpes and copd. She has been divorced three times. Her second husband persuaded her into the swinging lifestyle which resulted in them both contracting herpes. Her second husband also molested both daughters and gave them herpes. Now bff has three husbands that hate her and she has a love/hate relationship with both daughters because they feel like she turned a blind eye to their abuse. This is a woman filled with self-hate and rage underneath her "friendly" exterior. My xw went to her depressed (empty) and became a tool for bff to act out her secret rage. I became the target. Misery loves company so bff slowly pulled xw away from me and the kids. It was easy since my xw was so empty inside. Yet at the same time, bff would have had no influence over xw without xw already wanting to escape in the first place.
When my W was depressed she turned to her sister whose life was already a train wreck. This sister hasn't been happy with her husband for a long time but she's never had the courage to do anything about it. So when my W told her she wasn't happy and she didn't know why this sister told her that if she wasn't happy in her marriage she had a right to find someone else who would make her happy. And I've known this woman and thought I had a good relationship with her for over 36 years. What a dumb f*ck. Excuse me, but she really pisses me off!!! >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:(
Did I mention that I'm not happy with W's sister? I think I'm ready to go out to the garage now and go another round with the heavy bag.
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Normal depressed people can barely get out of bed.
I can certainly confirm this.
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Normal depressed people can barely get out of bed.
I heard a final report concerning the cause of death of Robin Williams. He had no alcohol or drugs in his body. The conclusion was that he was suffering from severe depression and took his own life because of that.
Robin Williams suffered from depression for years and years and he certainly was very active in his life. I don't think that we can generalize at all. My husband uses work to stop him from having to face his depression. He works continuously and there is no doubt that he is severely depressed.
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In all truthfulness, the thing is high energy MLC is much more similar to bipolar, with its manic highs and deep ends, that to normal (unipolar) depression.
So, the high energy MLCer has the same boost of energy a bipolar person has in a manic peak. Then, of course, it will go down, but the high energy MLCer jumps from one thing that provides a peak to another.
But, as with addiction, with time more and more is necessary to achieve the same result. That will drain the MLCer. Even so, high energy MLCers can carry on for years on end. From stories read on the board, it seems that, in some cases, they can carry on for a decade on more.
Depending of the souce, Robin Williams is said to be bipolar of suffering from depression. Depressed people can get out of bed if they are not under a severe depressive episode or if they are medicated. None of us knows how Williams was when off screen and if he spend time curled up in bed or not.
There is no shortage of people who suffer from depression that have very active periods. However they always have very low ones. You will have no trouble finding a list of artists that suffered from depression who manage to create, but there will also be no difficulty finding their lows (and even their suicides).
But I do know how Mr J and mine depressions, that were a consequence of physical exhaustion was. I also know how several other normal depressed people are when on a depressive episode. No energy. And by no energy it includes no physical energy.
I've always said that the MLCers are depressed, but MLC depression is not like normal depression. If it was doctors/therapists and also people around the MLCer, would have no trouble recognise that the MLCer is depressed. However we know how hard it is for professionals to identify MLC.
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Depressed people can get out of bed if they are not under a severe depressive episode or if they are medicated.
MLCers self-medicate. That's the whole purpose of the affair, drinking, sports cars, motorcycles, drugs, and other addictive and thrill-seeking behaviors. They modify the brain chemistry and make the depression manageable. For a while ......... Then they stop working.
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so when they start sleeping a lot and tired all the time, is that a sign of something other than the depression? cause mine is tired all the time now and is sleeping a lot.
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Mine is deliberately trying to hurt me so i hate him and don't want anything to do with him. it makes it easier for him so he can move on.
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I know, MyBrainIsBroken, straight from the horse’s mouth = Mr J. He had, in the past, said he was depressed and that he could not stop because if he did he would have to think about everything he had done and he could not face it. He said that some 7 or so years ago. Imagine the amount of more stuff he cannot think about that he has been accumulating since. ::)
Black, if your husband just wants to sleep he is probably quite depressed. And tired. It can be a mix of depression and exhaustion/burnout. Let him sleep. Right now it is hard to tell if your husband’s depression is the one from Liminality or some sort of depression some MLCer have on the middle of their journey. Time will tell.
Yes, Hopeful, hurting us to see if we give up so that it is easier for the MLCer to move on is sadly common.
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I truly believe my h deliberately wanted to hurt me. The look on his face when he said and did terrible things was a smirk. He was for sure enjoying it. H also claims to not remember and swears he would never say such things to me. I call bs on that.
I believe they are great actors and whatever eases their guilt is what they go with. So yeah they sound so convincing when playing the poor me card. Oh dear I don't remember saying or doing that. But he can sure remember everything that's going on with his freaky friends and he certainly remembered all his illicit meet ups with ow but conveniently forgets the crap he threw at me and d15? No, I think not.
I think they hurt and they want us to hurt also. Now of course that isn't normal thinking, I'm not saying that they are firing on all cylinders, but they know what they are doing. I think they just don't understand why.
I mean my h stopped by tonight to have a cup of coffee on his way to the motel and he went to get a donut. Wanted to know who had been here because there were too many donuts missing for just me and d15 to have eaten them. He can remember how many donuts I have in my house the paranoid ass, but he has memory loss regarding his behavior? LOL Still not buying it.
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H also claims to not remember and swears he would never say such things to me. I call bs on that.
They can't remember. That does not mean that when they did or said the hurtful things they were not trying to hurt us. But they cannot remember. The brain processes that they suffer, the depression, etc, does not allow them to remember a great amount of things.
Wanted to know who had been here because there were too many donuts missing for just me and d15 to have eaten them. He can remember how many donuts I have in my house the paranoid ass, but he has memory loss regarding his behavior? LOL Still not buying it.
Weird, I know. But it happens. MLCers can remember small unimportant things and totally forget really big ones.
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There are many things my H doesn't remember :o then when I tell him what he said he says that I misunderstood or took it out of context! It wasn't what he meant. I totally understand the mind protecting the MLCer from remembering things - it is self preservation. I don't know how they eventually face it - it must be so painful for them. I guess that is why some of them never do.
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In the blog of the psychotherapist that is working with Barbiedoll's husband, the therapist had posts about denial and how denial served to preserve the mind of the person in transition/crisis until the person was ready/strong enough to be faced with the issues that much be dealt.
No idea how they manage to face what they have done. At least, for some of them, with the more extreme behaviour, it must be really difficult. I understant that they may want to stay in the tunnel. It is much better than face the mess and the truth about themselves.
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Is there a link to this blog. I would like to read what it says.
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Here it is: http://www.briancollinson.ca/index.php/vibrantjungthing It has many posts since it has been running since 2006. But is worthy to take our time to read the whole of it.
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My xw's bff has herpes and copd. She has been divorced three times. Her second husband persuaded her into the swinging lifestyle which resulted in them both contracting herpes. Her second husband also molested both daughters and gave them herpes. Now bff has three husbands that hate her and she has a love/hate relationship with both daughters because they feel like she turned a blind eye to their abuse. This is a woman filled with self-hate and rage underneath her "friendly" exterior. My xw went to her depressed (empty) and became a tool for bff to act out her secret rage. I became the target. Misery loves company so bff slowly pulled xw away from me and the kids. It was easy since my xw was so empty inside. Yet at the same time, bff would have had no influence over xw without xw already wanting to escape in the first place.
When my W was depressed she turned to her sister whose life was already a train wreck. This sister hasn't been happy with her husband for a long time but she's never had the courage to do anything about it. So when my W told her she wasn't happy and she didn't know why this sister told her that if she wasn't happy in her marriage she had a right to find someone else who would make her happy. And I've known this woman and thought I had a good relationship with her for over 36 years. What a dumb f*ck. Excuse me, but she really pisses me off!!! >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:(
Did I mention that I'm not happy with W's sister? I think I'm ready to go out to the garage now and go another round with the heavy bag.
I recognize all of this. Unhappy, miserable people that are too cowardly to take out their rage on the people that hurt them so they abuse someone else's spouse. And we're the perfect targets because we actually love our spouses and take the abuse for so long.
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The answer to this question is YES.
And NO.
A big YES, they were intentionally trying to hurt us. That's a fact.
And a small no, because they did it thinking that we were the cause of all their misery.
When I was in so much pain and took a knife intending to end it all, he did not stop me. We were on Skype. He was expressionless the whole time. I later found out that he actually took screenshots of me grimacing in pain. I asked him what he did that for. He said in order to remember the moment. I never figured out what he meant. It was probably to remind him what a crazy woman I was and he was right to leave me. (Gaslighting)
During second BD, again when I was rolling in so much pain, he took out his hp and started videotaping me with a smirk on his face. To prove his point that I was just a crazy woman and the cause of all his problems.
He had a smile on his face as he looked back at me after he called the cops on me (because I was holding onto him for dear life) and made his getaway in a cab.
BUT, before the second BD when I still had the chance to speak to him, he admitted with much reluctance and pain, that his failing business and how he had been treated by his clients (he said they shouted at him, I'm guessing they put him down in some way) was why he was running away from it all. He told me that after he closed his business, his ex-clients started treating him very well and asking him out for meals. Poor naive guy didn't have a clue why. He was very happy about it because he wanted validation from them. So guess who the blame had to be assigned to? ME.
Well, I guess if his memory ever fails him, he will have pictures and video to remind him.
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My ex seemed to have no comprehension of what destroying the family meant to me. She didn't seem to even comprehend what not living in the same house as my own daughter meant to me .
She seemed to have lost all understanding or our 19yrs together and the growing old together from there , the turning of a corner and then making it 20 yrs and then25 and maybe 40 or 50 one day, the pride of knowing we did it , getting through together. She seemed to think none of that mattered to me . Yet l couldn't even describe what l felt about things like that they're just so deep, the pain and how l pray l will never live that again .
She seemed to think having to live like this with my daughter ,picking her up on wk ends , her having to live like this now,in two houses , worlds. Seeing another man around her own mother wks after being moved out and away from her own father , it was like it was all just nothing . Almost just another adventure .
Even now l have to point out such obvious things , like how hard it is saying goodbye to my daughter when l drop her off , or how hard it is on her just being settled with me and then having to pack up on a Sunday night and swap houses again , leave me .
She had no comprehension, zero ,of what it did to me when OM , answered her phone , my wifes phone , the family and husband of the women he was with , the family he helped destroy , the 11 year old girls heart and life involved , he answers her phone - to me . As if l was just some friend of theirs .
She said what was the problem , why did l hang up on him - wtf !!!!!
She seemed to not even imagine the 1,000 feelings and hurt l felt from even that one thing.
l will never , understand , how a mother and a wife , 19yrs , everything we did , and it was a lot , everything we were to each other , our family , daughter . lf l live to be 300 l will never understand how someone could even do that and seem to feel nothing .
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Hawk
I feel your pain brother. Keep strong prayers. I have similar experiences still searching for the "why?" why must it be this way? This was not our dream our vision if the future?
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Yes,
My H absolutely wanted to provoke me into getting upset so that he could justify what - he thinks - he wants to do. When I was finally crying, I expected it to move him, but he just looked at me like he was a clinician. He said, "Do you know how much I've cried over you? Now you finally cry. What do you want, a standing ovation?"
He said and did horrible, degrading things, without necessarily acknowledging what he was doing. No one I personally know can believe it. They've never heard of anyone behaving this way. I tell them about this blog, and say that it's the only place I've ever found others who've experienced the same types of things.
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I think some of them do nasty ,hateful things and know what they are doing.
I know mine said some pretty rotten stuff. When I found out he had friended his ex gf from high school I said something to him. I got the coldest ,meanest voice from him. He said ' So you're on here and friended such and such. You're on here and on and on. I know he looked her up to be spiteful. Once when I mentioned him screwing some one else he threw that in my face as well. Bringing back my own affair,like I had just done it. He had a revenge affair then but that was ok.
Then there's the fact he lost the house. He can blame everything under the sun for that one. I believe he did it on purpose with all his spending and bar hopping. Having a grand old time and not giving a rat's a$$ if we lived or died. I can see him saying f u to all of us every time he got a mortgage reminder. He told me right around the time I met the hag,that he wasn't paying anything anymore and even thought he was going to sign the house over to our son,but that fell through too.
I think part of them hurting us comes from the OP too. They're busy filling their heads with bull and the more they hear the more they hate us. So the more hurt they cause to shut that wonderful affair partner up and keep them happy.
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River, I have to agree with you. I believe some of them do it on purpose. They are so angry. My son saw that the other day and said to me that he could see and feel the anger he has toward me. And I believe my h has done and continues to do things to hurt me on purpose. That smirk of theirs says it all.
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I believe it too, they hurt the ones that they know will not turn their back on them. I also think that what they see in us is what they wish they had within themselves. H used to tell me all the time how strong I was. I think he hated me for that. And they are trying to hurt us because we are the ones that know the truth. We know them best and are closest to them. What better way to push us away than to be mean as all get out to us.
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I feel like they do it to take away the confusion and pain they are feeling. The happier I get the more Scrappy tries to cut me down. It is sick, but you get used to it. Prayers and hugs
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My H is kindness itself since he left. But before he left he was distant with me like he was trying to cut off his feelings for me. This lasted many years. No sex for three years. He started the affair with OW in 2006 and about 2010 stopped sleeping with me.
He says hurtful things to me like he doesn't find me attractive anymore and when he kisses me my mouth feels funny. It's all BS.
Many years ago he had another affair and he was horrible to me then. Told me I was boring etc. Then when it finished he was nice again. He is confused and co-dependent on me because he has known me since he was 17 and I have always taken care of him.
He is a serial cheat by nature but I also think he has been MLC for many years now.
I see him ruining his life by divorcing me and that is in a financial way as well as knowing he will be tied to this OW who is selfish and will make him unhappy. ,it's sad really because I can see his future and it is not going to be happy.
They do hurt us deliberately but it is guilt and to help convince themselves they are doing the right thing.
My H is cake eating at the moment. I think if I stood up to him in anything I could possibly see Monster appear.
This is a great thread.
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Anger at you and other kinds of ill-treatment is highly indicative of an affair, emotional or physical.
Experienced the same with mine for a couple of years.
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I don't think my W was trying to intentionally hurt me. I believe she really was confused and was hopeful that OM was going to be the source of the happiness that she felt was missing. The night she destroyed me by telling me about her "friend" she told me she didn't want to hurt me. But, in spite of that, I think she was fully aware of how badly I would be hurt by this because one of the things she did before dropping the bomb was to hide the key to the gun cabinet. That actually demonstrated a level of planning and rational thought that I didn't think MLCers were capable of.
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I think it's inaccurate to think they aren't capable of rational thought. When it comes to OP, then it's all emotion.
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Wow, interesting topic. There are so many factors in all of this. Vanisher, clinger, what phase they are in, etc. What phase the moon is in, what month it is, etc. Everything seems to affect an MLCer.
I've seen both sides. During my first bout, she seemed to want to hurt me, to make me hate her and be the one to leave her. That way she wouldn't have to accept as much guilt if I was the one to push the divorce.
I even had a friend set her up by pretending to be single, etc. and see what she had to say about me (this was not my idea at all though). The things she said were extremely hurtful (and she denied that she said them). "He held me back. I should have never got married. He was the worst mistake of my life. I wish I never met him." ...horrible stuff like that. And when I called her out on it, she physically attacked me. She knee'd me in the back in bed, punched and slapped me, etc. I just laughed, which probably didn't help.
This second time, she's explicitly stated that she's not doing this to hurt me, and that she hopes I have a good life and meet a good girl someday. She thinks we've grown apart, etc. She even put words in my mouth by saying that I'm unhappy too and that she's just taking the first step because she's miserable. Yet, she seems to be rubbing it in this time - facebook posts, etc. Which, in the end, is making me despise her more than the first time. The betrayal seems way worse this time. Maybe because I was lost and confused the first time. Now I know better.....I don't know.
But, if you call them out on their BS, or they are monstering, wow will they try to hurt you. They can be downright evil at times.
And DaRealist, damn...I'm so sorry. Do not believe her words though. I'm willing to bet she'll be eating her words big time one day and wishing she could go back in time and take them back.
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H hasn't really been monster this time around. Just very distant. But from 2010 up until this last time he left in May, he was monster to me and S off and on. Especially at the end before he left. He was mean to everyone. Even the dogs. He looked like a person that was about to explode at any second. We walked on egg shells. He was cold and hard and his eyes were shark eyes. He reminded me of that bully kid in school that everyone was afraid of.
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And DaRealist, damn...I'm so sorry. Do not believe her words though. I'm willing to bet she'll be eating her words big time one day and wishing she could go back in time and take them back.
She probably doesn't remember saying it and I won't ever remind her. I remember her saying to me once, "I feel so empowered.". I didn't understand what she meant at the time, but now I do. Bullying gives one a sense of empowerment, especially our spouses dealing with MLC. Watching a strong person be reduced to crying, begging and depression by their own hand makes them feel empowered. I find the best way to turn the tables is to gain inner strength, reclaim your self-worth and learn not to react. It takes away their sense of strength. They need that reaction to help them combat their inner feeling of helplessness and loss of control. I chose to not react to anything XW said or did unless it was an emergency. Even when the truck was repossessed, I didn't say a word. I will only bring out the claws if she endangers our children or creates a space that is not safe for them -- and she hasn't done that other than the emotional abandonment associated with MLC.
Months of not getting a reaction from me has broken her resolve. Now she creates opportunities to connect and communicate. She desires to be "friends". She spent an hour begging me for money a few days ago, using "please" over and over again. She is not a bully anymore because I no longer allow it. Monster needs cooperation. Monster needs to feed off of fear. Once you decide to grow and you no longer emit that fear Monster so desperately needs, it changes the game. Monster goes in hiding and, I believe, is eventually starved off.
So really, it depends on us. That's why it is so important for us to do the inner work -- to gain strength, perspective and reclaim our self-worth.
Here's a quote from readytofixmyselffirst that helped me a lot when I was dealing with Monster at her very worst.
You will recover.. it just doesn't feel like it right now. Do not let his crisis become your own crisis.
Could not have said it better myself. You are the strong and he is weak. His strength comes and stems only from your misery. He is a bully and if I could come over and work him over, I would. Remember, a bully strength comes from your fear. Do not fear him at all. What is he right now? A bully nothing more, nothing less.
He is the lost one and you need to flip the tables on him. He left his family- "the boys every other weekend for six hours" Does that sound like a father? They are not his children, they are his playthings.
You want to break the mask he wears? Enjoy your life and take comfort that GOD will provide for you. Don't think about what you are missing, focus on what you still have. The children are still yours. A parent can't buy respect or love. They will see the selfish destruction that he did to them and more importantly, their mother.
I want you to strand, not for your marriage, your husband, or anyone else- just stand for yourself. Be yourself and rejoice in being you. (((((hugs)))))
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Good post DR and good advice.
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Just what I needed to read today. Thank you.
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This topic is still one that leaves my head spinning. Prior to w departure she was so conflicted. I don't think she ever said she did not want to hurt me, but her actions spoke that she didn't want to. She cried a lot. We both did.
Shortly after her arrival in her hometown she was still nice and testing the waters i believe. I just now remember has stating to me "you would still take me back."
However shortly after, everything exploded and the monster came out. She flipped whatever remaining emotional ties with me off like a light switch. There has been NO cycling towards me at all since. Is this influence of OM?
-Terrified
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Agreed, great post DR. As soon as I started standing up to monster she stopped doing in to me and has since monsteed on her sisters and her bro in law. I set a boundary with her that I won't speak to her for a few days when she gets verbally agressive with me. It hasn't stopped that behavior all together but I do get apologies now when it does happen. I usually say "apology accepted, talk another day." Seems to have helpped.
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DaRealist,
Your post put things in perspective for me. I didn't react when he was bullying. I just sat and stared at him. I said nothing. Reason being is that the prior time before he left I argued and fought back. He used this as an excuse to leave. This last time I was determined to make sure that he only had himself to blame.
He has done a lot of things the past 6 months. I have given no reaction. Just "matter of fact" statements. No anger towards him and calm when I have talked to him. I have not begged, cried or pleaded this time. I haven't asked him for a thing. I have turned it all back on him. Every bit of it. His destruction is all his. I guess I took away his power and didn't even know I was doing it. He bullies the roomie now.
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The bullying drives me crazy, but like others, I've learned to handle to calmly. If I'm in the same room with him, I ignore it. When he tries to bully me via email, I ignore it. He learning: he doesn't get a reaction out of me, anymore, so he is moving on to greener pastures and makes himself look like a buffoon (his word).
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I wish I had learned this a few months ago - H has played me like a fiddle so that I get upset and he can justify what he is doing. Now he's going to turn up here later this week. He's already playing games with his flight plans. I just felt tempted to react, but I didn't, yet.
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My H intentionally hurt me quite a bit in the first month after BD. It was the worst of his monster phases, and he felt guilty because he knew he was in the wrong. He even said when he's uncomfortable or something is upsetting or hurting him, he cuts it off. He was trying to cut me off because he felt I was the cause of his unhappiness.
As the months have gone by he still does the occasional monster and intentional hurt, but I think he feels guilty over it. In MC he admits he feels like a bully and he doesn't want to hurt me. He liked that MC would allow us to communicate without him feeling mean or unfair. He's like a broken record "I don't want to hurt you", yet he's the one abandoning the marriage. He also rehashes the past daily, selectively remembering only the bad times and exaggerating them 500%. That I know he does intentionally to hurt me because I've brought up with him in our MCs reccommended Non Violent Communication technique, how much that rehashing hurts and stresses me.
My detaching has taken some of that power away from him. I try to remain indifferent and not allow him to make me cry when he does this. I kinda shut down and tune him out as soon as he starts a rehashing session.
His cycling and pretzeling also leans towards hurting but not as intentionally. He knows how to push my buttons, it's obvious... But I feel this behavior is more from his confusion and constantly changing emotions. And because I feel it's not in malice, I tend to get caught up in the cycling and pretzel myself. This is where I am now putting my main energy in detaching. While I love the good days and when our reactionship shows promise, I also know it gets my hopes up and sets me up for an emotional roller coaster. It's soooo hard.
I also want to chime in that my H suffers from severe depression and uses alcohol as a crutch. He has nobody to talk to other than his alcoholic/junkie twice divorced single brother. The guy is a train wreck. We had to bail him out of jail on our wedding day. He has bankrupted us with his constant begging for money and my H giving in. H also knows this hurts me and still chooses to keep helping his brother. I try and ignore it now since there is nothing I can do and don't want to give H the satisfaction of a reaction.
I don't know what we're doing right now... After last MC session and H now saying he's back to wanting a separation. I know he wants me to give up and let him go. I worry the biggest intentional hurt he can do is have an affair. I'm one of the lucky ones who's MLC spouse didn't/doesn't have an OW. He knows if he does, that's it. I won't give him another chance.
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Hawk
I feel your pain brother. Keep strong prayers. I have similar experiences still searching for the "why?" why must it be this way? This was not our dream our vision if the future?
You to man and thanks . l hope you find some of those answers , it does help . l have been luckier in some of those ways .
And l mean you nailed it ,it wasn't our dream , vows , was it ? Or the effort we were prepared to go through for our family if it was needed.
Once upon a time , they felt the same , it's so bizarre the way they give up and walk away .
l hope things are getting better for you . l've come a looonnnggg way but there is still - stuff !
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I think some of them do nasty ,hateful things and know what they are doing.
I know mine said some pretty rotten stuff. When I found out he had friended his ex gf from high school I said something to him. I got the coldest ,meanest voice from him. He said ' So you're on here and friended such and such. You're on here and on and on. I know he looked her up to be spiteful. Once when I mentioned him screwing some one else he threw that in my face as well. Bringing back my own affair,like I had just done it. He had a revenge affair then but that was ok.
Then there's the fact he lost the house. He can blame everything under the sun for that one. I believe he did it on purpose with all his spending and bar hopping. Having a grand old time and not giving a rat's a$$ if we lived or died. I can see him saying f u to all of us every time he got a mortgage reminder. He told me right around the time I met the hag,that he wasn't paying anything anymore and even thought he was going to sign the house over to our son,but that fell through too.
I think part of them hurting us comes from the OP too. They're busy filling their heads with bull and the more they hear the more they hate us. So the more hurt they cause to shut that wonderful affair partner up and keep them happy.
Yep l can hear om in all sorts of things she says and attitudes. Om's never been married or had kids either . An older single person can never understand a family , children , the depth of all that ad the childs emotions.
lf you had an affair earlier , that would explain a lot with h. My ex thought l was having one to and admittedly it had become a pretty strong EA but l stopped it going any further and wanted to repair us .
l'm not sure about your h though but l never realized how my thing was effecting my ex though and it did turn her into stone for sure.
Maybe your h too .
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This topic is still one that leaves my head spinning. Prior to w departure she was so conflicted. I don't think she ever said she did not want to hurt me, but her actions spoke that she didn't want to. She cried a lot. We both did.
Shortly after her arrival in her hometown she was still nice and testing the waters i believe. I just now remember has stating to me "you would still take me back."
However shortly after, everything exploded and the monster came out. She flipped whatever remaining emotional ties with me off like a light switch. There has been NO cycling towards me at all since. Is this influence of OM?
-Terrified
Mine was a similar mix at first . Before she left , she cried in my lap one night and even asked me , if it should be this hard.
l said no , of course not . It is this hard for you because your forcing it all onto yourself ,your going in the wrong direction ,you know that . You are quitting on your family , our daughter , me , you know that is wrong.
And that night l thought she was turning , she came so close.
But the next night she came home and l could tell she'd seen om again. Even though l told her , if you see him again before you move out of this house then do not bother coming back .
But l know she did sneak a few in .
But her resolve was back , and there were words and attitudes that weren't her own . He was literally counseling her , guiding her , out of her home , family and to him .
And even though l'm not sure what their thing is these days , it must be very part time if it is at all ,l can still hear him doing that with her in things she says now , and attitudes .
They seem to have them under a spell , and they will manipulate them out of your home .
Over in talkaboutmarriage , they say if you can't destroy the affair then you have probably lost them for now.
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Yeah she had mine under a spell. She's divorced and has three kids the same age range as ours. She messaged me one time telling me ' He had raised his kid's Meaning it was ok for him to be doing what he did. She saw nothing wrong with what he did to me. Real b!tc# that one. She even said some stuff to me I know he said. Stuff about me. Complaints that knew would hurt if he said them to me. Let's not forget they had dated in high school. So Op do make a difference on their meanness.
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thanks hawk and riverbirch.
Hawk one thing I have noticed between yours, mine, and MeNow's sitch is that all 3 of us had our own "EA"; in my case I believe it was a "mini MLC" in 2009, but now that I think more about it, maybe it wasn't so "mini" after all. I think I started at an attempt at high energy replay, and when old flame didn't share the same rose colored view of the past as I did, I became a low-energy wallower.
God, I so regret it. I wonder if it would have made any difference at all? Another down day for me again. I remember a co-worker who is studying psychology said the grief should last about 6 weeks. I wonder if that is "normal" grief, because its been a hell of a lot longer than that, and here I am in tears yet AGAIN. WTF?
-Terrified
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Terrified-
6 weeks???? That is textbook talk. I know from experience grief can take as long as it takes. Every person grieves different. This textbook talk on grief is what leads society to say the things they say like "you need to move on." "its been long enough." Do not listen to any of that. Take as long as you want to grieve. Your mind and your body will let you know when it is healed.
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Thanks Pixie. I am just so afraid I am going to "get stuck". I am still in utter disbelief that any of this is even happening. Why am I so damn depressed...I HATE ALL OF THIS. I would not wish this crap on ANYONE.
-T
-EDIT- I didn't mean to derail the topic. But to answer the topic, I would have to say YES, absolutely. I am still just trying to figure out "WHY" they need to be so mean...
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I was trying to think of times that H monstered at me when he was sober. Pre 4th BD, August 2013 we went on a family vacation with friends. H was seeking out all the 20 somethings at the pool and partying with them. He spent very little time with S and I. He stayed drunk and stoned almost the whole time. On our way back at the airport I guess I had an attitude about his behavior on the trip. He monstered at me in the airport in front of everyone. He said "You keep up with that attitude and I'll pack my stuff and leave when we get home." I was stunned. On the plane I was crying. One of our friends asked him why he did that to me. His answer was "I didn't mean to make her cry, but I had to." The friend asked why and he said "because she's not going to control me, I'm going to do what I want."
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Plus I think grief over a dead loved one is different than this grief.
I had a real crisis coming to a head in 2004. Affair and all.
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I wonder if it would have made any difference at all?
IMHO it would have not. Even if the EA, could had, somehow, accelerate the other spouse MLC, the MLC would had happened EA or no EA.
Plus I think grief over a dead loved one is different than this grief.
Agree. The dead of a loved one, hard it is, is an end, there is closure. MLC is an open situation that lasts an unknown number of years and brings many things while it is occuring.
At times we have one BD after another and even if there is no BD there are usually many issues that the LBS keeps to have to deal with.
Anyway, 6 weeks of grief, no matter what the situations, seems a very, very, short amount of time. And like Pixie said, grief lasts as long as it lasts, and the leght will be different for each person.
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I wonder if it would have made any difference at all?
IMHO it would have not. Even if the EA, could had, somehow, accelerate the other spouse MLC, the MLC would had happened EA or no EA.
Plus I think grief over a dead loved one is different than this grief.
Agree. The dead of a loved one, hard it is, is an end, there is closure. MLC is an open situation that lasts an unknown number of years and brings many things while it is occuring.
At times we have one BD after another and even if there is no BD there are usually many issues that the LBS keeps to have to deal with.
Anyway, 6 weeks of grief, no matter what the situations, seems a very, very, short amount of time. And like Pixie said, grief lasts as long as it lasts, and the leght will be different for each person.
Thing is, my "mini MLC" happened in 2009. On one hand, she stuck around all these years. On the other she told me "she should have left 5 years ago." But again, that may just be the MLC talking as maybe she feels that I wasted "5 good years of her youth"...
The closure aspect of MLC really scares me. I am an extreme introvert in person, and therefore not a relationship pursuer. All the relationships I have been in, they pursued me. Anyway, I never got "proper closure" from old flame. That coupled with discontent at that time in my life and an unexpected "path crossing" is what precipitated the EA and my mini MLC. Had I have had "proper closure", maybe that would have never happened idk.
I've said it before in other threads, but the irony to this is since me and w are on our way to d I could easily reach out to old flame again, and being on my way to d might could rekindle something. But the thing is, I have no desire to at all. Last time I saw her there was no attraction physically, and the more we communicated, the more I realized there was no attraction emotionally as well. That chapter has been closed.
You just have to laugh at life sometimes. The crazy sh!t we do.
-T
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I did the same thing terrified - I had to close the door on an old relationship 17 years ago and NEVER heard the end of it from him.NOBODY'S PERFECT ::)
Listen to me- this has nothing to do with what we did or didn't do..this has to do with what THEY haven't dealt with. He never forgave me because his HUGE ego was standing in the way. I thought he did. Doesn't matter - he decided the life he had simply was not what he wanted.
They would have found any excuse to do this..they simply are not content or happy within themselves.
And my answer to the title of this thread IMHO is YES yes they do try to try to hurt us on purpose this is about power and control. It gives them pleasure to cause this kind of pain.
What we allow continues.
We have to look at ourselves and grow from the pain we experiance. Stay away from them and focus on ourselves.
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They would have found any excuse to do this..they simply are not content or happy within themselves.
And my answer to the title of this thread IMHO is YES yes they do try to try to hurt us on purpose this is about power and control. It gives them pleasure to cause this kind of pain.
What we allow continues.
We have to look at ourselves and grow from the pain we experiance. Stay away from them and focus on ourselves.
Yes
Yes
Yes
and ....YES
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6wks T , that's ridiculous . l'd def' move on from that women.
You guys were almost the same time and yr as us , except you've only broken up this year and 6wks for that, no way.
At 18mths l still became upset within seconds if something set me off. like this damn Yukka tree she planted right at the front door. That was growing like crazy and so there was no way l could miss it every time l walked in or out. Shoulda ripped the damn thing out .
But at 2yrs now , and our divorce is done , l am finally starting to feel human again.
But my counselor actually said it can be 1 yr for every 4 or 5yr spent in the relationship .
And here's a bonus to help that along. Ex has really let herself go , like really . And her personality is still changing and still moving in the same direction. So really , it's an old version of her l would want back and our family but tbh anyway, this her now is not even her anymore.
Maybe this happens for you , it helps a lot .
l do worry about stuck too . l've never been stuck before and so hey , maybe it's my turn .
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6 weeks lol. Sure, if we'd only been dating for 6 months. And this isn't a normal relationship break up...far from it.
My W has let herself go emotionally, but not physically. She started taking "phentramine" (an amphetamine that curbs your appetite so you don't eat - might as well be Meth). Well, from what I've read, it has major side affects - hating your spouse is one. So compound that with MLC and wow....Yeah, she's probably skinnier than she was in HS even, but whatever.
My W did not need to lose weight, she was just fine as she was. Now she seems too skinny to be honest. I can't wait for the day when OM starts cheating on her like he's done with his past spouse and GF's.
I think we need a new law where you can't get assault and battery charges if you beat up a home wrecker. That might curb some of this crap. >:( I'd volunteer to put this new law into place. :)
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Good idea on the law, twice burnt. I think society used to look at things that way. Perhaps in certain cultures it still does. But we are in the instant gratification society. Some states recognize alienation of affection suits, but far too few. And all the electronics have led to an explosion of this. My H had a fling overseas while working there for a few months. In decades past, he would have come home and had difficulty with continuing any contact, let alone incessant communication. Now, the AP can be in your house 24/7. And we all know about the FB, "high school reconnection" issues. My H tried that too before he found a way to run.
In it, I can't quote properly on the IPad, but you've nailed it for me. Things that were years in the past, and had been followed by many loving interactions with H, were suddenly front and center as his reasons to do what H believed he wanted to do. Because, as you say, his huge, narcissistic? ego never forgave me. He'd play the same card over and over again.
The sadistic efforts to assert power and control amaze me. He's got his adult kids not talking to me. Now he brings them up in every conversation - oh, I was on Skype with this one, emailed that one. Looking for a reaction from me.
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Tbh ,l can understand even a very old affair never quite leaving someone. l've heard from females and males still stewing over something 15 or 20yrs ago.
So agree on this electronic thing , it scares the hell out of me in where it's gonna lead and end.
How many families has just FB alone broken up ,can you imagine !
Texting 24/7 . computers.
My ex basically ran her affair around our house and going to bed early every night alone with her precious phone and texting .
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I do not think they hurt us deliberately, in my opinion. My H did something so hurtful a few years ago. When I reacted with hurt and went quiet my H said...apparently you are angry or hurt or something. I just looked at him in disbelief and said, I'm not angry.
He said very softly...I didn't mean to hurt you.
I felt he truly did not understand he hurt me. I could see it on his face. He actually felt bad. So no, it was not deliberate.
blackice, I wonder the same thing. My X has been exhausted for months and does nothing but sleep. It's getting to a point where I wonder if I should bring up depression to him. I haven't because I don't know what kind of reaction I will get. I just keep thinking he has to, eventually, figure out is not normal to be this tired all the time.
I was over to his house yesterday and he slept off and on all afternoon. When I left he apologized for being so boring. I said it's ok, I know you're tired. He thanked me and said he would perk up next time. ???
DR, you really hit the nail on the head. Once you stop allowing Monster it starves itself. Up to you to put a stop to it.
I also agree with the comment MLC depression is NOT the same as clinical depression. Two entirely different things, even though they can mirror each other.
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His biggest problem I found out later was he was "in his prime" sexually" when it happened..which he stated. So this insulted his manhood. There was hyper bonding after but he admitted he was just trying to PROVE something to me.
Uhmmm big mistake- as it connected me on a different level.
By the way? Sex isn't love. Now that period of time means nothing to me.
That wasn't what that was about for me or the person I got involved with! It was how I felt when I was with him. He was impotent!
And he turned out to be pretty much a loser. I didn't know how to get out of it without hurting his feelings.
When it was all over I didn't want either one of them..but the ex harrassed me so bad I took him back..the kids were little and I wasn't about to take off with that guy take the kids or leave the kids behind.
Or divorce the ex and move him in like what happened to me.
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My issue was wanting to spend time with someone I found interesting. My H was very controlling, I was working all the time and I felt I had no life. It wasn't sexual with me. But H took it that way.
I saw the other guy very realistically after a very short time. I did not want that. Perhaps because I had more relationship experience than H does. H doesn't realize that affairs are a fantasy land.
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Exactly and reality crashes in after whatever time.
I knew about the third time I saw him I had to get out of it.
But he had driven a considerable distance to see me and I felt guilty and sorry for him. It went on a lot longer than it should have...so it lasted 6 months.
Again even if I hadn't made that choice and I had lived in a bubble focusing only on the ex - this still would have happened.
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Once you stop allowing Monster it starves itself. Up to you to put a stop to it.
Absolutely. We remove ourselves from it, and the monster finds a new victim. Mine currently seems to be focusing on our mediator. It's fascinating to watch. He seems to go after anyone whom he perceives as trying to stop him from doing whatever it is he wants.
6 weeks? Seriously? There is no timeline for grief: its individual. Plus I think grief over a dead loved one is different than this grief.
Of course its different. I lost my mom a year ago, and as painful as it was, I was able to celebrate her. My dad visited last month, and we spent hours talking about what a remarkable woman she was. She is gone and my family has closure. Conversely, the grieving process for my marriage has been drawn out because he isn't dead, he's elsewhere. We expect death. We do not expect the person we loved to treat us with utter disdain and torture us emotionally.
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6wks T , that's ridiculous . l'd def' move on from that women.
LOL, you misunderstood-she has just become a very good friend. She has helped me tremendously with my sitch. She is a very strong independent woman-she has to be-she has a 17 yo autistic son. Anyway, she has never actually been married, BUT...her mom left her step-dad for a year and a half AND got pregnant with a "love child" during that time. They reconciled. So she sort of has experience with this, although not directly. Plus her studying Psychology is a bonus. Strange enough, MLC is right there in her textbooks. Too bad really, my new lawyer (also a judge) told me the courts do not recognize MLC.
-Terrified
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Back to the topic at hand, as I said earlier YES.
As far as me trying to figure out "why", here are some guesses in my particular sitch:
1) I wasted 5 good years of her youth (she said she should have left 5 years ago when I had my mini MLC)
2) I spoiled her good time by alerting her family to her affair
3) I am the reason why she has been so unhappy for years
4) I am standing up to her (out of character for me as I am a conflict avoider) fighting for custody of both girls (D16 lives with me, D5 lives with w)
5) I kept telling her what a POS her OM is (a huge mistake I now know). Those in her family that say the same to her also are met with monster.
Hmmm, thats it for now. I'm sure there are others.
-Terrified
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Hey, Terrified, every "excuse" you listed is script.
1. We should have gotten divorced years ago when we were having problems.
2. I had the audacity to tell my sister what he was doing and then my idiot BIL called him out on it (at my mothers funeral when he was pretending to be a good husband)
3. I was the reason he wasn't happy because I was going through my own depression after getting laid off. I had a bad attitude (he was right on that one).
4. I am now making his life miserable because I'm standing up to him by agreeing to mediation (his idea).
5. I questioned the moral cole of OW when she broke up with him for spending too much time with his wife right after my mom died. I also shot a truth dart at him by saying she can't be such a wonderful person if she was willing to sleep with a married man when she, herself, was married.
I believe that sometimes they do want to hurt us and other times they are just so self-involved they really are clueless as to their behavior. The worst things mine did were not about hurting me intentionally, but when his monster was at its meanest, yeah, he wanted me to hurt.
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I think we need a new law where you can't get assault and battery charges if you beat up a home wrecker. That might curb some of this crap. >:( I'd volunteer to put this new law into place. :)
I'm definitely in favor of this. In fact, I think you should get a medal or something, with bonus points for putting the SOB in the hospital. Do I sound bitter? I know it's not about the OM/OW but still, they are messing with somebody's marriage. >:(
I do hope someday God will judge them and his judgement will be severe.
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I saw the other guy very realistically after a very short time. I did not want that.
I knew about the third time I saw him I had to get out of it.
But he had driven a considerable distance to see me and I felt guilty and sorry for him. It went on a lot longer than it should have...so it lasted 6 months.
I appreciate your honesty in posting this. I hope my wife is as clear about things as you two. It's been almost five months for her and she really doesn't seem to be happy, but who knows, maybe all of the drinking she does now makes up for it.
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If these answers are script...
1. H "missed his chance" to break up 6 years ago when I had my mini MLC. Despite us talking this out thoroughly 5 years ago after HIS RA, and both of us recommitting to the marriage.
2. My oldest adult SD came close to discussing H's PA with me. SD may know something about H's affair, but not from me. When H learned that SD was texting me, H shut down my adult stepkids' communications with me. They are so under his financial and mind control that they complied, despite my being in their lives for 12 years and never having a cross word with any of them, ever.
3. In Feb., H wrote me a paper about all the nice things I'd done during our marriage. In July, Monster H told me I was "only alive when I had someone to hate."
4. H told me I should not have "fought" him. That we supposedly could have reconciled if I had responded to his 3 year affair by saying nothing more than, "H, come home, we're even."
5. H stormed out and decided we were done when I suggested that OW was charging H for different sex acts because OW had sent H at least 50 Paypal money requests.
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Ah sorry about the friend T , sounds like a great person to have around right now.
l got a lot of that stuff from ex too. Admittedly , l'd so carelessly hurt her with the EA though so she did wanna spit some real fire at me.
But hey , mine said she switched of 4yrs earlier to so what dif' could the ea make anyway.
l only 1/2 believe the 4yrs switch off myself, and the same with yours.
l reckon things like that yeah , they come from somewhere , like mine did because we'd had some stupid nasty fights and some other things, but l also think it's 1/2 monstering to get their way to.
Me , l don't think we can take it all to heart , as someone said before , it's so script and l think they're right. They do all seem to throw almost identical lines at us .
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IMHO as ridiculous as this might sound if you take all of this personally?
You are in for a world of crazy, devastation hurt and pain....
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Hi Janus
Your H OW sounds like my H OW in that she is a right money grabber. I think a lot of these OW are ruthless and only interested in our H for their money. I often wonder if my H lost his job and couldn't get another one or if he became very ill and couldn't work if she would stick around. I doubt it very much. They are all just ows at the end of the day.
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Pretty much all it came down to in the end for his exow was money..that's all they are after.
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"I appreciate your honesty in posting this. I hope my wife is as clear about things as you two. It's been almost five months for her and she really doesn't seem to be happy, but who knows, maybe all of the drinking she does now makes up for it."
Thank you, MBIB. Not easy to discuss, because I constantly wonder, what if that had never happened? My brother says that based on H's behavior now, something would have happened, regardless. Does your W have a job? I did some more drinking with this other guy than I normally did, but it was "after work social drinking." We have jobs and couldn't sit around a bar getting bombed all day. I remember the infatuation, but I remember clarity taking its place rather rapidly. It went on longer than it would have because I was on a work assignment near the guy. But honestly, the source of it was my belief that H did not care much about me and was using me. When I saw H hurt, I started to come out of it.
I think that if they are stuck in childhood - and my Mom acts like this, too - they will throw temper tantrums just like a child and say or do anything to "hurt you back." I've done some of this myself, and one of the only positives to come out of H's MLC is that I've re-connected with God and I've learned that it helps me to control that.
"Your H OW sounds like my H OW in that she is a right money grabber." Right on, HMT. How is it that EVERYONE who knows this story - including middle-aged men who don't have a dog in this fight - wrinkle their noses when they hear of OW's requests for money? H claims that OW's ex-H stopped paying child support and OW's kids were not eating properly. OW and her family are in the UK and she and her ex have jobs. I think OW's ex has a military pension and works at the Tower of London, where they provide housing. Yet H would have me believe it took too long to enforce a support order in the UK and that OW couldn't get public assistance because OW and OW's ex both work. So H becomes the only source of adequate revenue? H claims OW was "desperate." (H also told me that I would have helped out an AP in need. Sure. Imagine if I told H I was sending his money to my AP.) I'd be interested to hear the UK-dweller take on that story.
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I have not been on for awhile, since my sitch has no happy ending...but here are my two cents.
8 months into H affair, I had a few months of monster, never knowing what the hell I did. I read later, in H and OW secret FB messages, H wrote: "I am trying to make SSG mad, so she will leave me".
Then once I found out, he was nice again, stayed a few months, helping me with chores around the house before he finally left.
Three months ago, it was revealed he is dying. Cancer of the lungs that has metastasized in adrenal glands and the brain.
1st treatment in August, 2nd in Sept, 3rd October....
It is now 17 months after BD now (and 14 months since he moved in with OW, in her country)...last Friday, under H's FB name, OW wrote as H and blasted me left and right, to all our mutual FB friends, that I am a liar, spreading rumors about him (of course, not true...I have detached a long time ago), I am living on my H's full pension, still in our home and she is paying the rest of the bills. (Oh, so, so not true...he cut me off financially Feb 1, 2014).
I was painted as the worst human being whose H is fighting for his life, and I am in our home, living life large.
I got help from the FB group (connected to this group)...but it was still hard. I wrote H on Viber, a very, very long message and then they stopped the FB hate campaign.
So why??? I have stayed out of their lives since he drove off...he is dying, and after learning this, OW pushed him to file for D. Now the blitzschlag on FB to paint me as evil.
No point, is there? What more does she want ? She's got my H...I have had zero contact with either of them....She is hoping the D goes through before he dies. So why the FB crap against me.....?
SSG
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SSG,
Does OW want some sort of insurance or survivor benefits? Does SSG mean that your H is retired military?
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SSG, these are things I think we will never understand. Ow does have an agenda, I'm sure, and that is to get the most from this poor man before he dies and to do that she believes he must divorce you and hopes you will be entitled to no benefits. As far as your h goes, that is the thing we will never get an answer to I believe.
I also stepped away. I have never intruded on his life with ow, made trouble, contacted them. No way. I can only imagine what has been said about me. And yet he continues to bring his crazy into my life. I ask myself this everyday - why, does he do this? I think the only thing I can do is accept I will never know why. It will never make sense.
My h has told our older kids, and I'm sure his friends, although I don't speak to them (the friends), that I take all his money, treat him horribly, blah, blah, blah. None of it is true. He left me and d15 with practically nothing and for months did not contribute a dime, but stole all our money and gave it to ow. Thousands of dollars. The only people that know the truth about that and the fact that I never contact him first or give him grief is me, him and the kids.
Another thing we just have to accept - that a lot of this we will never have an answer to.
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They absolutely do try to hurt us in an attempt to push us away! Mine even admitted as much towards the end; even went so far as stating she wished she had just had a PA to hurt me more so that I would hate her and move on!
.............................
I find the best way to turn the tables is to gain inner strength, reclaim your self-worth and learn not to react. It takes away their sense of strength. They need that reaction to help them combat their inner feeling of helplessness and loss of control. I chose to not react to anything XW said or did unless it was an emergency. Even when the truck was repossessed, I didn't say a word. I will only bring out the claws if she endangers our children or creates a space that is not safe for them -- and she hasn't done that other than the emotional abandonment associated with MLC.
Months of not getting a reaction from me has broken her resolve. Now she creates opportunities to connect and communicate. She desires to be "friends". She spent an hour begging me for money a few days ago, using "please" over and over again. She is not a bully anymore because I no longer allow it. Monster needs cooperation. Monster needs to feed off of fear. Once you decide to grow and you no longer emit that fear Monster so desperately needs, it changes the game. Monster goes in hiding and, I believe, is eventually starved off.
So really, it depends on us. That's why it is so important for us to do the inner work -- to gain strength, perspective and reclaim our self-worth.
Some very key points by DR and I have experienced this. She also wants to be "friends" and I had to point out recently that we ARE NOT friends; she is simply an acquaintance I was once married to and happen to have kids with; no more, no less!
I finally got to the point where not only do I not react to her; I call her out every chance I get. I essence, I had to fight fire with fire to get her to leave ME alone! I believe at some point, you may have to push back. I can't go completely dark due to D11, and she continually tried to engage me on other things, some inappropriate!! Early on, after the decision was made, she thought it was ok to discuss "personal" lives together. I tolerated it to a point in order to make the D go smoothly and not blow my deal. Recently I had just had enough. She came home late one evening after I agreed to watch D11 while she went to the gym (more visit time for me). I told her I am here to spend time & care for my child, not support her new social life. She went straight in to her "oh woe is me" and how she got dumped by her new BF, how she has been on several dates and can't get a call back, second BF went "awol" and hasn't called....... blah, blah, blah! I gave her a reality check (said in a very matter of fact tone)............
"Sorry you feel that way, but I have to say the 'dating game' just isn't favorable to you........you're 42 y/o; you're not 26 like you are trying to be and your new BFF you are hanging out with......you're aging and your looks are fading......you have excessive baggage.....you are co-dependent.....you rely on people too much for your happiness and they can see through that.....it's a shame that I am gone just as you wanted but yet, you are still not happy....such a waste......guess I wasn't the problem and the grass really isn't greener is it?" She started crying; I had to go so I told her sorry things weren't working out and try and have a good evening!
And yet, she still tries to engage me in convo that is not D11 related! Even now as I type this, she is pinging me on text about some BS at her work trying to engage some conversation. Cannot seem to get her to leave me alone and move on like she wanted!!!
DO
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SSG,
Does OW want some sort of insurance or survivor benefits? Does SSG mean that your H is retired military?
Take into the fact that H prob. lied to her about the way things work in Germany..but they need to be married a min of 10 years before she can get part of his pension. She would get money from the gov. as a widow..but it isn't that much in the big picture.
He is going to lose his house as he quit working to run to her farm in the CZ Republic. So there really isn't anything she would benefit from. Since he has become a supreme liar, perhaps she is under the illusion that she gets our house, property and a healthy insurance policy...
Maybe she just wants to be Mrs. H, and me be the divorced loser...who the hell knows.
The attack on me, on FB was really bad...... I think that really sealed whether I will continue to stand or not. I voted for NOT. I am done. I never wished for him to be deathly ill....but I told my attorney to drag out the divorce process...so when he passes on, we are still married. I would get more benefits and more money than if we divorced.
SSG
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"Sorry you feel that way, but I have to say the 'dating game' just isn't favorable to you........you're 42 y/o; you're not 26 like you are trying to be and your new BFF you are hanging out with......you're aging and your looks are fading......you have excessive baggage.....you are co-dependent.....you rely on people too much for your happiness and they can see through that.....it's a shame that I am gone just as you wanted but yet, you are still not happy....such a waste......guess I wasn't the problem and the grass really isn't greener is it?" She started crying; I had to go so I told her sorry things weren't working out and try and have a good evening!
And yet, she still tries to engage me in convo that is not D11 related! Even now as I type this, she is pinging me on text about some BS at her work trying to engage some conversation. Cannot seem to get her to leave me alone and move on like she wanted!!!
Nice one Obo. :) I don't think she's ever going to leave you alone. She's probably starting to see that the grass isn't greener. Obviously she's still in MLC or else she wouldn't still be trying to go on dates. It is funny how clingers want us to move on, yet they don't really want us to move on - or make it very difficult to. They still want their cake.
I wonder what she's going to be like if/when she's out of the fog? If she's this clingy now, I can only imagine how much she'll try to communicate with you. My W practically stalked me when she wanted back the first time.
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Nice one Obo. :) I don't think she's ever going to leave you alone. She's probably starting to see that the grass isn't greener. Obviously she's still in MLC or else she wouldn't still be trying to go on dates. It is funny how clingers want us to move on, yet they don't really want us to move on - or make it very difficult to. They still want their cake.
I wonder what she's going to be like if/when she's out of the fog? If she's this clingy now, I can only imagine how much she'll try to communicate with you. My W practically stalked me when she wanted back the first time.
It was harsh but honestly, it was the brutal truth and it obviously hit home!
She is definitely hitting the wall! I am pretty sure that BF#2 has dumped her or things have cooled. She had asked to allow D11 to meet him & if I wanted to meet him first (part of our agreement to protect D11). I said I will definitely meet him; public place preferred and it would be only him and I. The only thing that would be discussed is his exposure and actions around D11 and consequences if he crossed the boundaries. Apparently, he is a P***y; he was scared he would "get a gun in his face", or so the X told me! Wow.....really??? Since then, there has been no talk of it anymore and nothing of note coming from D11 (she tells me everything whether I want to know or not)!
I don't know what she will be like, but from what I am seeing, and the attempts at contact other than for D11, my guess is she is already seeing the grass is not green; it is $h!te brown. I am sure the fact I am in a new, solid relationship, cuts pretty deep too! I didn't jump into the dating game and all that crap; I actually met someone I liked and have high compatibility and have not detoured! Already got the "I can't believe you replaced me already" script and apparently she cried when she saw a picture of us together. I countered it with "Well, you did say you wanted me to find someone else and be happy" along with "Sorry you feel that way, but it's just how things are now so got to get use to it"!
And she still tries to prod me for info on my personal life; especially when she knows or suspects I have been with my GF!!!
When she comes out of the fog, I am guessing I am going to have to deal with a lot of regret and crying....and probably some begging! Who knows.....I'll deal with it when the time comes!
DO
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Wow DO, those were some truth spears, not truth darts! Mine is telling me how he has talked to others who have separated and they don't care what their exes do yet the thought of me going out with someone just kills him. He said, "Am I that shallow, that I want to go do whatever I want but don't want you to?". Well yes, actually. I must say it is tempting but I feel like he would come back if I did date but not having gone through the tunnel based on what others have told me.
Unbelievable how they know they are screwing up so badly sometimes but can't help themselves. Probably your XW will be able to convince yourself that you are the bad guy somehow.
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Wow DO, those were some truth spears, not truth darts! Mine is telling me how he has talked to others who have separated and they don't care what their exes do yet the thought of me going out with someone just kills him. He said, "Am I that shallow, that I want to go do whatever I want but don't want you to?". Well yes, actually. I must say it is tempting but I feel like he would come back if I did date but not having gone through the tunnel based on what others have told me.
Unbelievable how they know they are screwing up so badly sometimes but can't help themselves. Probably your XW will be able to convince yourself that you are the bad guy somehow.
BP,
Not sure if shallow is the word; he is still connected on some level I would bet! This is very typical of an MLCer; to not want you but not want anyone else to have you! I would say common of a boomerang / clinger; maybe not so much of the other types. It's still cake-eating either way; they can't have it both ways!
If he has verbalized this, then you can bet if / when you do decide to date, it will be a harsh blow and may result in him crawling back! But you are correct; he probably won't be "cooked" enough and it would probably be a T&G to reset the anchor!
To be honest, I believe them seeing you have other options and that other men showing interest in you is a good thing. You don't have to act on it; the fact that someone else finds you desirable is going to do a couple things:
1) Great confidence boost for you; don't say it isn't so! ;)
2) It puts that dread into the MLCer that you have options and it is quite possible someone else out there could actually treat you better and offer a more fulfilling relationship! The thought of losing you becomes VERY real!!!!!
I am sure I am already the bad guy and my character has been assassinated. However, a few of our mutual friends, and even her personal friends have "checked up" on me to see how I am doing and want to make sure I am ok!! I am pretty sure the true nature of things are starting to come to light! It always does in the end!
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Nice one Obo. :) I don't think she's ever going to leave you alone. She's probably starting to see that the grass isn't greener. Obviously she's still in MLC or else she wouldn't still be trying to go on dates. It is funny how clingers want us to move on, yet they don't really want us to move on - or make it very difficult to. They still want their cake.
I wonder what she's going to be like if/when she's out of the fog? If she's this clingy now, I can only imagine how much she'll try to communicate with you. My W practically stalked me when she wanted back the first time.
It was harsh but honestly, it was the brutal truth and it obviously hit home!
She is definitely hitting the wall! I am pretty sure that BF#2 has dumped her or things have cooled. She had asked to allow D11 to meet him & if I wanted to meet him first (part of our agreement to protect D11). I said I will definitely meet him; public place preferred and it would be only him and I. The only thing that would be discussed is his exposure and actions around D11 and consequences if he crossed the boundaries. Apparently, he is a P***y; he was scared he would "get a gun in his face", or so the X told me! Wow.....really??? Since then, there has been no talk of it anymore and nothing of note coming from D11 (she tells me everything whether I want to know or not)!
I don't know what she will be like, but from what I am seeing, and the attempts at contact other than for D11, my guess is she is already seeing the grass is not green; it is $hit brown. I am sure the fact I am in a new, solid relationship, cuts pretty deep too! I didn't jump into the dating game and all that crap; I actually met someone I liked and have high compatibility and have not detoured! Already got the "I can't believe you replaced me already" script and apparently she cried when she saw a picture of us together. I countered it with "Well, you did say you wanted me to find someone else and be happy" along with "Sorry you feel that way, but it's just how things are now so got to get use to it"!
And she still tries to prod me for info on my personal life; especially when she knows or suspects I have been with my GF!!!
When she comes out of the fog, I am guessing I am going to have to deal with a lot of regret and crying....and probably some begging! Who knows.....I'll deal with it when the time comes!
DO
How long after the separation did you meet someone DO ?
Just wondering to , what sort of stuff would you have said to the bf about being around your daughter ?
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l could not imagine mine ever crawling back. She'd never do it like that anyway , to proud . She did seem to sway a bit here and there around 12mth ish and l think if not for my pride l probably could've opened the door around those times but l just couldn't do it after the om and everything.
Now days , sep and now divorced ,2yrs all up, she seems to be forging ahead on her new life . She's a totally different person, l feel as if on one hand we can still chat away just like the old us but on the other l often think hell , she is so weird l don't even know her now.
Mine told me she wanted me to be happy too . Her new best friend , yeah the one that encouraged her to destroy her family , actually asked me out 5mths after we separated and she asked ex if she'd mind. So weird all that. Ex said fine. But l wasn't into her anyway and not to mention she'd helped destroy us to boot so , yeah sure ! But eh , all too weird anyway.
Ex has never seen me with anyone else yet . l think she thinks l'm still holding back for her . How weird to take that for granted.
l drop tiny little tease hints here and there though about other girls but sorta say nothing at the same time . Just checkin if the ears prick up really and l'm pretty sure they do as soon as l've left.
She asked me about one girl once . l would've loved to know wtf that was about or what she'd heard . l didn't tell her anything just brushed it off just to tease her but truth is , l didn't even know the girl.
There's no one around that takes my interest what so ever anyway these days , at all .
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Mine's told me to date also, just not his friends. ::) Like I would date those nutcases. I have dated and I didn't tell h until he told me he had left ow and wanted to try to put us together. Trust me - I know this is a touch and go. I did feel I owed it to him to tell him that I had dated, but that's it, more friendship, nothing physical. H said he had no right to be upset so it was fine.
I have learned I will never tell him again if I go back to dating or anything else about my life. Just gives them fuel for their fire and they don't see it as starting over open and honest and they sure don't get jealous, at least not the way we would like. The only question h asked was who paid. LOL I said not me, he said then it was a date, not friends. I don't think he cared either way, he was just annoyed that I might have paid - you know the old that's where my support money goes crap. Let's not take into account that I have a job also.
I also see that my h is changing, what I thought were things that would be temporary through the mlc, I believe I am seeing some things that will be there even after. I kind of don't like them. I don't want to be married to a man who is narrow minded, judgemental, and acts like he's 90 and 2 at the same time. These things were there before mlc but are very prominent now. Time will tell I guess.
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"They need to be married a min of 10 years before she can get part of his pension."
She can get part of the pension prior to 10 years of marriage. 10 years just gets the spouse the right to have the spouse's portion automatically deducted from the pension payment before it is paid to the retiree. As opposed to having to wrangle it from the retiree. ;)
"Attack on FB."
What is it with FB? Most moms I know who are on FB fixate on posting things about their kids. H's OW only posts cryptic clues about her R with H. One of them was an FU selfie to me with a cropped pic of H in her house in the background.
"To not want you but not want anyone else to have you!"
I asked MLCer 4 months go if he wanted me to give up on our M, move on and find another guy. (Not that I want to date for a long time, but that's all H understands.) H said no. I then said, OK, then let's not pursue others until we figure this out. Nope - H went right back after OW and is cake eating like a starving man let loose in a bakery! (HE'S "Cake Boss")
H had run off to the Middle East last year for a job and was flying OW in to see him. But when H came home for Thanksgiving last year, H went in my phone and gave me a hassle over a text from a female colleague at a conference asking about where my male colleague from my 5 year old MLC was.
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Not dated, not met anyone special but I take heart from the quote below from my thread.
I don't really have any advice that everybody else hasn't given already, but I'm glad you are living life with no expectations and being a parent to your kids the best you can. Somebody will come along one day that will be your new partner in life.
Family have said xW will never find anyone as good as me, and if I do meet someone xW will not be happy. (She'll never be happy).
Lanzo
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Hi Janus
In answer to your question about your H OW in the UK not receiving any help and needing money from your H. That is crap because in the UK the benefit system is quite generous and especially if people have children they will never starve. The state will pay for their housing and sometimes people who live off the state are better off than those who work. Also people who work get plenty of help if they have children. They get child allowance and help with child care for very young children. She is like all the ows and that is she is a money grabber. My H is too thick to realise that she is after his money. She is totally immoral.
Take care
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I was told that of I wound up with someone else (presumably before we are divorced) I wouldn't be doing anything different than he is. I was also told it would be "nice" if I waited around for him to get through this.
TMT, thanks for your comment about narrow-mindedness. You just made me realize something. Mine used to be very homophobic. No surprise, he is a Marine. A year or so before BD, though, he was becoming more accepting of homosexuals. I thought it was very strange and actually thought he was starting to grow up! But at the same time, he was getting really odd about how I cooked. I grilled bratwurst wrong. :o One evening I was chastised for putting garlic in whatever I was making and, as he was berating me, he reached over and started eating raw onions, something he would never eat because they disagree with him. I asked when he started eating those and was told he "always" did of they were sweet onions. Wow...in 26 years of marriage, I never once saw him eat a raw onion and always bought Vidalias. So what I just put together is that I may very ell have been watching his personality starting to change. On the one hand, he might have been growing up. On the other, with food, he was acting like a spoiled toddler.
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LOL Medusa. Spoiled toddlers is so apt. Mine has always bragged about my cooking. No matter how many hours I worked he always had a hot meal ready no matter what time he came home. My son said to him the other night at the "family meeting" that he hopes we can find our way back together because he misses my cooking (I don't cook much anymore). H said, why, the only thing your mom can cook decent is fried chicken. OUCH - he shoved the knife in and twisted. LOL
D15 and s26 were vocal about that and h finally shut up. But I found it interesting after I got done wanting to strangle him. When we first met I couldn't cook ANYTHING!!! But after we married I wanted to be a good wife and so I tried my hardest. I cooked fried chicken one night, it wasn't done properly, h remarked his mother wouldn't cook it that way. OK, I was a bit of a crazy girl back then, so I took his plate, dumped it in the trash and told him to go eat at his mommy's then. Now he believes this is the only meal I can cook decent. There has to be something to this I just can't figure it out.
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My mom was a chef. I think I'm genetically inclined to be a great cook. :) I don't do it too much anymore, either, but that's mostly because my work schedule is incompatible with S20s school/work schedule. Regardless, I really don't care if that man misses my cooking or not. Thought about this very subject this weekend when I had the pleasure of making chili for some friends. I had the random question if he missed all those wonderful things I used to make and then started laughing because he won't get "The" chocolate cake for his birthday again this year. Nor will he get my special ginger cookies for Christmas. S, me and whomever I decide to share them will will get that pleasure. Its petty, but I do hope he fondly remembers those cookies. If he Eve denied loving them, I will question why I had to make 2-3 batches very single year. ;)
They have to make us to be the opposite of what we really are to justify themselves. I swear they have to convince themselves that we were awful at absolutely everything...we couldn't do anything right (like cook bratwurst).
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Medusa,
You are great. Your MLCer is a fool. I think when they lose the military structure, they get depressed and also don't know how to behave properly any more.
I think half the reason my H is creeping home here this week is b/c he wants the Thanksgiving turkey I cook in a particular way. When H wanted to reconcile, he had that turkey on the list of good things about our M. H eats more than any man I've ever known, so I could never cook enough for him.
HMT,
THANK YOU. I suspected as much - the UK seems to have a very generous benefits structure. All this talk of kids starving seems over the top. And when I looked on FB, I didn't see Fantine from Les Mis, either.
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We dont celebrate thanksgiving really. Its more of an excuse to cook a lot of food and hang out.
I used to cook every day. When everything dropped i stopped. I could barely function. Im getting back in the habit of it again. I realized i missed it. Its a way of showing my family i love them. I had to love myself again first.
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Not dated, not met anyone special but I take heart from the quote below from my thread.
I don't really have any advice that everybody else hasn't given already, but I'm glad you are living life with no expectations and being a parent to your kids the best you can. Somebody will come along one day that will be your new partner in life.
Family have said xW will never find anyone as good as me, and if I do meet someone xW will not be happy. (She'll never be happy).
Lanzo
Hey Lanz , l think ex's family are glad to see the end of me and get my d more to themselves . We never did hit it off.
My family are like me , just very sad about it , disbelief . Worried for my d.
l've met a few and was seeing someone this last few mths but it's just too complicated with everything she has going on and after everything l've had going on.
Absolutely no one on the scene now . l think l'll just rest up, live and let the cards fall where they may.
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The holidays aren't easy that's for sure..I try to think passed them and have something else to look forward to I might go out New Years Eve this year.
Keep the chaos and the crazy at bay if you haven't gone NC the holidays are a good place to start. They love to start some kind of drama around then.
I am thankful for another year of me not having to listen to him not criticize the meal..turkey was always a big issue. If it was too dry I'd hear about it. He was extemely ungrateful.
Focus on what you do have instead of what you don't.
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Trusting.....what you wrote is exactly dead one for me too.....its so hard to read. It takes me have to that painful place where I am constantly trying to stay in control of my emotions around him while he is cutting me down over and over....it's hard not to look the victim (which fires my mlc up full speed !destroy! because he hates me more when I show weakness) when your self esteem is wracked - and in my case financially dependent and in the marital house unable to pay the bills....financial crushing is his current game and his mother is playing the game with him....he hides money and she puts her own money in our account with a check....them he is sweet to me and wants to talk about nothing...
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Keep the chaos and the crazy at bay if you haven't gone NC the holidays are a good place to start. They love to start some kind of drama around then.
This is something that I didn't notice at first but seems to be true. Every holiday h seems to come back around. The kids say he just wants gifts, lol, but he never gets any. It does make the holidays difficult with all the added stress.
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the holiday season has always been rough, even pre mlc, it's one of h's ptsd triggers. he was assaulted around this time as a kid. so it's a huge trigger. he's ended up in the crisis center several times around now before. now that he is away from us and alone i wonder how much it's going to affect him. last year at this time is when everything went boom, our life exploded. from the small correspondences i am getting from him it seems like he is very thinky and trying to stave off that major depression he has been avoiding but can't anymore. something will happen i am sure but he has to be in a treatment center by the end of next week so maybe he will get in there and they can deal with it instead of me.