Midlife Crisis: Support for Left Behind Spouses
Archives => Archived Topics => Topic started by: OldPilot on November 24, 2014, 08:02:00 AM
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New thread
Previous threads
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=2625.0
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=5734.0
From Stayed
I thought I would add the stages of grief that we all go through with a relationship breakup.
1. Shock: "What the hell just happened?"
2. Denial: "This is so not happening."
3. Isolation: "I just want to sit in this all by myself."
4. Anger: "I hate you for breaking my heart!"
5. Bargaining: "What will it take to get him/her back?"
6. Depression: "I will never get over him/her."
7. Acceptance: "I understand why I was with him/her, why I'm not now, and that I will be better than just OK."
Some keep it a bit simpler:
1. Denial
2. Anger
3. Bargaining
4. Depression
5. Acceptance
Several versions actually... but we all definitely go through them.
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I bounce around with the anger stuff. I know it is important to feel it but then again, I don't want to feel it to the point where I am bitter. That seems difficult at times. Most of the time, it is just sadness underneath. I can have a good time, smile, enjoy my kids-but I still feel the sadness. Especially lately where D18 is getting college acceptance letters, a job, and so many milestones. But i do remind myself that I have so much to be grateful for and I am able to notice and appreciate much that kind of slipped by me before. Maybe I am between depression and acceptance?
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Each and every stage is very important to work through. We become stronger and happier with each, I think!
Just attaching!
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I bounce around with the anger stuff. I know it is important to feel it but then again, I don't want to feel it to the point where I am bitter. That seems difficult at times. Most of the time, it is just sadness underneath. I can have a good time, smile, enjoy my kids-but I still feel the sadness. Especially lately where D18 is getting college acceptance letters, a job, and so many milestones. But i do remind myself that I have so much to be grateful for and I am able to notice and appreciate much that kind of slipped by me before. Maybe I am between depression and acceptance?
This is me too, only minus the D18.
I rarely feel angry, don't bargain with him as I know what he'd still choose. Depression is a tough one, but I am better able to recognize it and pull out of it more quickly each time. And acceptance...don't think I am quite there yet. I do know that I will be ok without him, but am sad that he's not here...like you say, sadness underneath. I am closer to my kids now though, and for their ages, maybe that's better anyway? Can you have depression and acceptance at the same time? I teeter back and forth between the two I guess.
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lol perhaps you can accept that you are depressed Patience.of.a.saint, hehehe. Actually I do think intense sadness is a form of depression. When I actually was convinced that my h and were DONE... I felt terribly sad... like empty... hollow inside. I wasn't angry, I just unbelievably sad. Profoundly sad, I guess is the way you would describe it.
I would get to acceptance and then something, something small would trigger me and back I went. I didn't find anger until after we started to reconnect. It really pi$$ed me off, that all these years had been wasted, but making it even worse, he was so RESISTANT to owning what he had done. Which was even more time wasted. OWN IT FOR GOODNESS SAKE... admit what you did, show sincere remorse.
There really is something wrong with their reluctance to ADMIT a mistake, a fault. We were talking about one of the kids recently and I said to him, "does it worry you that our children might do what you did". He became quite angry and went to great lengths to assure me, that he didn't feel any guilt or concern that they might follow in his footsteps. In fact, he felt that having seen what we went through it should be a deterrent! I said to him quite calmly, "don't you think you are protesting a bit too much. I asked you a simple question, I was no accusing you of anything. I know that if I had been in your place and did what you did, I would blame myself for ANY unhappiness or problem in the marriages, as a direct result of my actions. He became quite angry again and told me not to be RIDICULOUS!"
Odd, I find it a relief to admit when I am wrong. It makes my h angry. It always has and it still does.
hugs Stayed
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wasn't the only person who couldn't believe he had left me either. As the news slowly trickled out, everywhere I went, I had to deal with utter disbelief. I cannot tell you how often I heard, "you were the last two people I ever thought would split up"! Or, "OMG, if you two have split up, there is not hope for our marriage"!
Are you able to identify the stage you are in? Do you find it helpful to understand what YOU are going through, being able to say, oh dang, I'm angry again... sure will be glad when I work my way through this "stuff"?
Do you find you are less "depressed" then you were, or more so? Are you still "disbelieving" as much as you did at first? Do you still feel shocked?
Goodness me Ladies and gents - You have been busy. I have pasted this from the previous thread.
Yes Stayed Ditto to the first paragraph. Not one person I know who found out said anything like "well you two weren't getting along." No it was that we were the model R and marriage. One younger person said - I look up to you two and you were my role models for my marriage!!
Re identifying the stage .... I think we are also in a fog but it's our own version.
I was listening to my current guru Lee Baucom from his thriveology site. It's about the fog that we face when we have had a shock and how we lose direction and how the fog returns from time to time. Listen to it - it's absolutely fascinating and excellent for those LBsers who have got over the initial shock and anger stages and perhaps like me are over 18 months in wondering when they are going to get a clear head.
http://thriveology.com/how-to-get-through-the-fog/
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I actually wouldn't say that I am depressed because I have been there...pretty much when I should've seen him going deeper into it. BD was a wakeup call of sorts. I read and read about things to do with him, and most applied to me as well, so I have worked on a lot. I believe that I am in a much better place a year later. I completely changed careers and now I have a dream job with a lot of variety and I can make my own hours so I can be with my kids, pick them up from school, attend their after school events, etc. I've made some new friends because of what I do. Money is decent. Life is actually pretty good right now.
My sadness only comes when I wish I could share my happiness with him. My job takes me on some crazy adventures that I know he would have enjoyed. There are adventures to be had that I am not brave enough to do myself yet, but I do know that will come. I took my kids tent camping on my own last summer, which is something I never ever thought I could do without him there to keep us safe. Mind you, I had a can of bear spray next to my pillow...and we were in a state with no bears, but I did it & we were ok!
So I don't know...maybe I am closer to acceptance than what I think. I never ever expected him to return in a year or two... I give it 5...3 at the least. My other MLCer has been at it for almost 10 years now. I really have no expectations...just the hope that it's not 10 for this one because I'm not waiting around that long.
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...he was so RESISTANT to owning what he had done. Which was even more time wasted. OWN IT FOR GOODNESS SAKE... admit what you did, show sincere remorse. There really is something wrong with their reluctance to ADMIT a mistake, a fault. Odd, I find it a relief to admit when I am wrong. It makes my h angry. It always has and it still does.
Stayed,
I wonder if this isn't why it takes so damn long :P ? They just cannot face the enormity of this thing & own up to it. I wonder if inability to admit mistakes isn't part of the risk profile for MLC. Rather than admit to not being perfect in the M, having feelings of failure, of not living up to expectations (their own, what they perceive to be ours, others) they find it easier to run away to an adoring 3rd party instead of talking it out with us.
Yes, I can see that my anger stage might well come with reconnection ::) . These LBS's reconnecting on the forum seem to have the patience of Job.
I wasn't the only person who couldn't believe he had left me either. As the news slowly trickled out, everywhere I went, I had to deal with utter disbelief. I cannot tell you how often I heard, "you were the last two people I ever thought would split up"! Not one person I know who found out said anything like "well you two weren't getting along."
Absolutely the same. My family was astounded, thought we had one of the two most solid M's in the family (8 siblings).
One younger person said - I look up to you two and you were my role models for my marriage!!
My younger son's exact words to H at our family counseling session. He proposed to his GF two months later. DIL's comment was interesting--she had been with S & around us for the same length of time it turned out H had been with the OW. She was thrilled that unlike her parents we got along, liked each other, & did things together. After BD she said H was kind of like the serial killer who lives next door & you thought was such a nice guy, but turned out had bodies buried in the yard :o .
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I've wondered about that unwillingness, actual complete resistance to admit to making a mistake. Like what is with that? Everybody makes mistakes. Get over yourself. My h has always had a problem with that. Funny thing though, it must be common because I saw on Jimmy Fallon, a skit where the two men were trying to say... "I wwwwaaaassss wwww wwwww wwwwrrr rrrrr rrrr ooooong"! Then they laughed and laughed. I thought... NOT FUNNY GUYS! Not funny at all!
After BD she said H was kind of like the serial killer who lives next door & you thought was such a nice guy, but turned out had bodies buried in the yard :o .
Oh wow! She's right! It is like that... ugggh! :(
hugs Stayed
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At work :(...,attaching to read later
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Attaching.
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Just thought I would chime in here. Been divorced long time and ex has never once admitted to any wrong doing concerning having an affair and leaving marriage. He and I get along fairly well for a divorced couple, but I'm still waiting for an I'm sorry, which I don't expect to ever hear.
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dbpb,
We have been divorced for about a year and a half. We get along really well also, but I agree..I don't see him ever apologizing. I see him just sweeping it under the rug.
Partly because he's stubborn and partly because I don't think he remembers a lot of what he said or did. I think his fog was REALLY thick. When I one time reminded him of something he said he was shocked and said...I would NEVER have said that! ???
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Mine has said "I'm sorry" a number of times. When he saw how shocked & devastated I was at BD he said it over & over until I just told him to stop. He has said it a handful of times, usually when we've hugged during rare interactions. Once it was "I'm sorry I did this to you".
My take on this is that it has all been to soothe his own guilt. I do think he has regretted what happened, but has been so compelled/addicted to following this course of action (the infidelity, the abandonment, now the D) that he hasn't accepted any accountability for his actions. He doesn't really blame me; I've even gotten "It's not you, it's me", but he hasn't accepted his wrong-doing either. He has been overheard explaining that "Things just happened". RCR has a good rebuttal for that in her articles, LOL.
I understand the sickness here & have love & compassion for him, but I don't believe he has apologized to me. He does not have remorse; he isn't making amends on any level. Forgiveness is a process. If he returns with sincere actions, it will come more easily. If our lives diverge long term, I think forgiveness will eventually come, more by default than anything else.
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My exH won't ever apologize. We sort of touched on what happened with us last year, shortly after my current MLCer's BD and he pretty much blames me yet...said I never talked about anything & he had to guess. I remember him always thinking I was mad, so I guess if you think someone is mad and that they are not talking about it, then I guess it makes it easier to put the blame on them for what went wrong. I was never mad...I'm just a quiet person. He will still ask if I am mad when I reply to a text and do not put "lol" after every text. All I know is that I did not share his love of knowing who sang every song or acted in every movie, which was ALL he ever talked about. I do not know how I ended up married to him, but was happy to see him go. I really don't care if I get an apology from him or not.
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A few months back I got "I haven't been a good us and to you". No kidding? Not recently!
We desire remorse, but I do think part of our healing is coming to accept we may never receive that. Occasionally mine will say something that is still self-centered and lets me know he's still deepl in replay.
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mine has only recently begun to say he is sorry for what he has done. ok that's nice and all but you're still doing it so how sorry are you really?
you can spout word vomit at me all you want but until you grow a pair and actually do it i don't care anymore.
h has told me he has just been going through the motions and avoiding making any decisions cause it's easier that way, i told him really, cause look what you've done to yourself and how miserable you are, how's that working out for you?
i admit for a while i was doing the same but i woke up and decided to take the reins again. you can't go through life just letting people and things dictate your path. then it really isn't your path. it's theirs and your just going along with it.
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I think what has sucked me in a little recently is during R talks, H said that he realized he never spent time with me except for doing things we had to do, and didn't want to. He didn't make time for any fun stuff. That really got to me, as the idea of him spending quality time with the OWs bothers me more than sex. I think about him going on dates with people with resentment more than I think about infidelity(or whatever it is, since we are separated). Although as I am writing this, I realize I have not gotten any remorse for what he has done since BD except for him saying if I had moved out and dated two people he would be like "See ya, f you" instead of any thoughts of sticking around.
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h has told me he has just been going through the motions and avoiding making any decisions cause it's easier that way, i told him really, cause look what you've done to yourself and how miserable you are, how's that working out for you?
Mine doesn't want to make any "rash decisions". Clearly getting involved with a married woman you work with is not rash. :o
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I think what has sucked me in a little recently is during R talks, H said that he realized he never spent time with me except for doing things we had to do, and didn't want to. He didn't make time for any fun stuff. That really got to me, as the idea of him spending quality time with the OWs bothers me more than sex. I think about him going on dates with people with resentment more than I think about infidelity(or whatever it is, since we are separated). Although as I am writing this, I realize I have not gotten any remorse for what he has done since BD except for him saying if I had moved out and dated two people he would be like "See ya, f you" instead of any thoughts of sticking around.
I got the same exact thing.
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I got the same exact thing.
Of course you did! ;D It is the same all over the site with just the names changed, isn't it? Aaand we are back into what they are saying although I guess this healing/recognizing their bs is part of the stages.
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i think finally not caring about what they say or do even is what matters. getting to that point though is rough. i am there most of the time but even then i have my days where i let it get to me but who wouldn't.
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Funerals always put things in perspective for me...
Early in my journey, I had several long private exchanges with RCR about standing when your spouse remarries, and if D is EVER okay. Why does the first marriage have any special standing, when, in fact, there are many people here standing in their second marriages? When we D'ed and he remarried, I remember saying to myself--he better F'ing be RIGHT--he better make it worth it. And I truly hope he does. But I also truly don't want to know anything about him or it, or her, or anything. And I knew that was why I couldn't stand--I was born without a forgiveness bone, and I would never want to hang my life and my happiness on another marriage--waiting and hoping for it to fail... I am not made that way.
But, back to the funerals. I have been to more funerals in the past two years with NG than I had ever been to in my life previously... I guess it's the age, but three of them were high school students, one a suicide, a close friend of my kids, two were friends of mine, parents of friends of my kids, one a suicide, lots of older folks. And, we will go to at least three or four more in the next year. The kids are the most heartbreaking, but the old people are the hardest for me--not one had been divorced. So, last week, as I watched a video, with 80 years' worth of photos, from picking cotton in the 40's to holding grandkids last month, they were always a couple, no gaps, no missing years, and in the section called "our love," you saw their whole history, from dating to marriage, through five kids and grand kids. The story of their love...
I wrote piece a couple years ago about how the memories fade. My best friend's aunt is an LBS, and she told me a long time ago, that the saddest thing is that you lose memories--the ones that only get preserved by the two of you--because there was no one else there and you have no one to talk about them with, ever again. She said after 20 years, she could no longer remember their early life together, any of his family, and even parts of her kids' childhoods--that the only part of her life she considered REAL was her new marriage and her older kids. I remember thinking that was incredibly sad, and strange, and it would never happen to me.
But at five years, it has. Fortunately, I have a best friend with kids the exact same age as mine, I will never lose those memories, since even her kids have them. But his extended family and my memories of our early R are fading fast--even to HIS friends from those days that I kept after the D... Starting a new career, having kids in different stages, a new R--my hard drive needed space... And the other day when a picture of my son came up on my FB page, with his father and some extended family, the only one I recognized was my son... I had to look at it twice and say "wow, I was married to that guy--he looks old, but look Lynne posted more recipes..." And as quickly as that, it was gone...
Your stages are your own, but I still argue, you DO get to define them if you want. Decide today that you are in a new stage and move yourself there. Remind yourself when you slip into a less-than-desirable stage, that you are NOT there anymore, that you have moved past that, and do it. You can meander aimlessly back and forth, but, you can also decide to make changes and BE someone else. I am not saying it's easy, but neither is anything that is truly worthwhile, but we do it. We graduated school, raised kids, had jobs, getting over one person who flaked out is NOT hiking the Appalachian Trail or fighting cancer, and people are doing those things right now... It's Thanksgiving--do that, be thankful for all you DO have, don't waste energy on the ONE thing you don't... Love and light, ll
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Great post, LL! Thank you.
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Yes, I can see that my anger stage might well come with reconnection ::) . These LBS's reconnecting on the forum seem to have the patience of Job.
Mine sure did and it frightened me with its intensity. I didn't realize a volcano was simmering just below the surface!
Mine still isn't saying sorry, I love you, or showing much remorse as of yet. He just seems resigned that he has to spend the rest of his life with me. Gosh, such a punishment! ::)
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I no longer consider myself the spouse being left behind. My w has regressed while I have moved forward thanks to my amazing family, friends and a great counselor. Only 4 months in and my w has fallen so far. I already consider the marriage my choice. I work on myself everyday and won't ever go back to a relationship with a depressed alcoholic. She has a lot of work to do before I would take her back.
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I no longer consider myself the spouse being left behind. My w has regressed while I have moved forward thanks to my amazing family, friends and a great counselor. Only 4 months in and my w has fallen so far. I already consider the marriage my choice. I work on myself everyday and won't ever go back to a relationship with a depressed alcoholic. She has a lot of work to do before I would take her back.
Good for you Dj and I completely agree and can relate. I am no longer an "LBS" by function either! I have talked about this before and truly believe that at some point, once we get our sh!t together, we leave the MLCer in the dust; broke & confused!!!
DO
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I no longer consider myself the spouse being left behind. My w has regressed while I have moved forward thanks to my amazing family, friends and a great counselor. Only 4 months in and my w has fallen so far. I already consider the marriage my choice. I work on myself everyday and won't ever go back to a relationship with a depressed alcoholic. She has a lot of work to do before I would take her back.
I am still an LBS but for me it means Living Better Spouse. :)
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I am still an LBS but for me it means Living Better Spouse. :)
I love this! Hugs Stayed
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I was looking through the stages of grief and thought that in the earlier days I felt no anger, just confusion and fear.
I feel angry these days because I hate the waste of time when we could have been happy. That makes me really angry.
If I listed all the terrible things my H has done, the anger would be too much, so I don't go there. I prefer to remain in a positive life, not a pitiful one.
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I too, have never received a apology. Read this quote one day and realized, he just isn't capable of it..yet.. May never be:
Life becomes easier when you learn to accept the apology you never received.
It is what it is..I have to let it go that I probably will never receive one.
Hope everyone has a good day.
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OP has kindly put this on as a sticky thread to help all of us especially the newbies.
This thread is NOT about MLC behaviour but about our responses and growth. It's recognising that we too have "stages" to go through and the first LBS stages thread talks about the seven stages of grief. So please leave the comments about what your MLCer is doing to your thread and let's continue the good work in sharing how we are dealing/coping/growing/accepting etc... with the mess that is MLC.
This is about the LBSs.
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Ok, I'm angry >:(
I always thinks everything through, thoroughly. It's actually one of my things I need to work on, I have a hard time making decisions because any outcome to anything becomes convoluted if you overthink it, and I have a hard time not doing that.
He did not think any of this through, not about the kids, the house, the anything. There is no viable R with this other lady, and more likely than not, he will be losing his job and current 20somethingspartyfriends support system because of it. He has always been responsible and considerate, now he's being a careless idiot.
And I'm here trying to keep my kids and home together through the pain of a betrayed heart. I am very angry.
But it's easier to be angry when he's gone, because when I do see him, he looks so thin and gross and has this lost and pained expression on his face and I am a fixer, a nurturer by nature, so my heart bleeds for him. Even when he was trying to provoke me into an argument over nothing before he left, I didn't have any fight in me, only pity and compassion.
So there's my worry, if he doesn't touch and go, my anger will turn to hatred, and if he does touch n go, I will always be his mother, trying to kiss his boo boos better
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MsT, that was one of the best descriptions of an LBSer's emotions, that I have seen in quite a while. You nailed it exactly. When your MLCer is away with the "ferries", playing with his children friends and his ridiculously, young OW, the anger is so strong, violent you feel like you will explode and blow the house up.
As soon as they return, no matter how short a Touch&Go it is, your love, compassion, sympathy for the confused state they are so obviously in, overwhelms and all you want to do is cuddle, hug, kiss their pain away. FIX it, for them.
When they leave you, standing there, dealing with the aftermath, the bills, the children, the carnage, the senselessness of it, the bewilderment, not knowing what to do. It's normal to feel anger, sadness, fear. The thing that is really hard to grasp and comprehend, is how terribly SORRY we feel for our spouse. Seeing them in such a profound state of confusion. I think it can only be described as "utter helplessness"! One minute they repulse and anger us, wait a few minutes and somehow you feel sorrier for them, then you do yourself, your children, the mess your life has become.
I think it is our compassion that saves us in the end, MsT. When you can still feel pity, compassion and love for a person that has / is hurting you so much, shows what a truly loving, caring person you are, which will lead you through this. Restoring you to a whole, healthy and happy person, again.
Hugs Stayed
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I know that I shouldn't dwell on what THEY are doing together but it makes me so mad! My husband travels for his job, and I could never go on business trips with him because I had to stay home and work and take care of the kids. That trashy ow who hasn't had a job can go to work with him and take her baby and leave her 19 yr old daughter who lives with her and her 2 other kids that live with their grandma at home.
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Stages of Grief (LBS)
1. Denial
2. Anger
3. Bargaining
4. Depression
5. Acceptance
Trying to figure out which stage you are at HopeFaithLove! Sounds like a combination of anger and depression!
It's frustrating when the new person in our spouses life is able to accompany and participate in parts of our spouses life, that we would have LOVED to have participated in. This UNDESERVING person who preyed on our spouse, is actually being REWARDED, in our mind, for their outrageous behaviour. We all question, how can this be? Evil is not suppose to be rewarded. People who do bad things are suppose to be PUNISHED... not rewarded.
This causes the depression you are feeling sweetie and of course the anger. Let yourself feel it. Don't let it overtake you though. Sounds like you need some HOPEFAITHLOVE time. Perhaps a nice massage, or a mani-pedicure. Or a new hairstyle.. perhaps a new outfit or shoes/handbag. This is the time to pamper yourself sweetie.
Don't put yourself in debt of course, but perhaps you can get a sibling or friend to go out and have a nice quiet meal with, share a bottle of wine. It's pretty normal to feel like this. Pamper yourself and let the pain and resentment go!
Hugs Stayed
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Hey, Stayed - were's the 'fed up'-stage?!!! ;) I feel both acceptance and tiredness, like I want to just wave him off like a fly in my food... Not angry just *sigh*... HUGS, Gx
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Hey, Stayed - were's the 'fed up'-stage?!!! ;) I feel both acceptance and tiredness, like I want to just wave him off like a fly in my food... Not angry just *sigh*... HUGS, Gx
A C C E P T A N C E !!! My friend... acceptance! You are "letting go"! ;D ;D ;D
Hugs Stayed
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I think for me through the whole time I WAS in crisis during his crisis (which is ongoing) the most painful and prominent feeling was despair. Not just despair over the broken relationship but the raw feeling of this is my life now. I have zero say in it but here I am. All the hopes and dreams and goals we planned TOGETHER... Dead...
And now that I have a good chunk of time to reflect on (2ish years) the newest lesson I'm learning is my intuition/gut has always guided me and I chose not to listen. My gut was a revelation of many things along this journey but I chose to scilence it becuase it was easier in the moment. Not anymore... MY INTUITION IS MY NEW COPILOT!
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MsT, that was one of the best descriptions of an LBSer's emotions, that I have seen in quite a while. You nailed it exactly. When your MLCer is away with the "ferries", playing with his children friends and his ridiculously, young OW, the anger is so strong, violent you feel like you will explode and blow the house up.
As soon as they return, no matter how short a Touch&Go it is, your love, compassion, sympathy for the confused state they are so obviously in, overwhelms and all you want to do is cuddle, hug, kiss their pain away. FIX it, for them.
When they leave you, standing there, dealing with the aftermath, the bills, the children, the carnage, the senselessness of it, the bewilderment, not knowing what to do. It's normal to feel anger, sadness, fear. The thing that is really hard to grasp and comprehend, is how terribly SORRY we feel for our spouse. Seeing them in such a profound state of confusion. I think it can only be described as "utter helplessness"! One minute they repulse and anger us, wait a few minutes and somehow you feel sorrier for them, then you do yourself, your children, the mess your life has become.
I think it is our compassion that saves us in the end, MsT. When you can still feel pity, compassion and love for a person that has / is hurting you so much, shows what a truly loving, caring person you are, which will lead you through this. Restoring you to a whole, healthy and happy person, again.
Hugs Stayed
Thanks for hugs, stayed. I need them right now :)
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I think you are right Stayed, I am very angry and depressed. Everything you said is so true. All my life I have tried to be a good person and a snake in the grass snuck up and stole my life. It's hard to accept something like that.
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Attaching, :-\
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It is hard to accept HopeFaithLove. For now, take comfort in KNOWING it is very normal to feel as you do, I personally think anybody who says they are not feeling this rage at the "Robbery" of their life, their dreams, is in DENIAL! Maybe they don't feel the boiling RAGE that some of us feel, but if you are feeling jealousy, envy, resentment about them doing the "things/activities" that you had EXPECTED to be doing/living, then you are feeling ANGER!
It is very normal my dear HopeFaithLove, very, very normal. I allowed my anger freedom UNTIL I started having anxiety attacks. At that point I realized my ANGER had gotten out of hand, that it was TAKING over my life. At that point I realized, I was in charge of my emotions, my behaviour and I had better figure out how to deal with ME, or I was going to become an angry, bitter, old lady.
It is WRONG that somebody else gets to "take over" the fruits of your labour! It is just plain WRONG. You have every right to feel angry, rejected, replaced, whatever you are feeling! I know you know that and that there is no need to apologize for your feelings. For yourself though, for your well being, watch that your pain and anger does not take over your "soul"!
I know you would hate to live in darkness.
Hugs Stayed
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What about once they are home? I'm sure there are stages then too. Stayed how was that for you in the beginning?
So mines been back since March/April. At first it was anxiety, some happiness,a lot of numbness. It's like holding your breath not wanting exhale. There's sadness because things aren't the same. Not that we want it all the same depending on the situation. I know there's a bit of depression or numbness. He's just a shell of a human with very little happiness,or loving expressions still. I feel a little bit of anger. It's such a weird feeling I have right now. Like most of my emotions are stuck.
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RB,
Its important to remember that even though they come home or move into wanting to reconnect, they are still deeply in crisis and have 3 more stages to pass through. Depression, Withdrawal and finally acceptance (which in that stage has 3 mini stages). During this time the LBS continues their journey and moving through the stages ourselves will continue (including bouncing back and forth including anger).
While MLCer are navigating the 3 final stages they will be in deep turmoil as they continue to battle their demons and ward them off once and for all so I suspect that little happiness and even expressionless is very normal. Depression is debilitating but so so necessary in their journey. As I have read for some very wise people on this board, it is absolutely crucial for them to continue through the final stages of their crisis in order to be "reborn". If they do not the risk is very high that they will revert back to crisis mode years down the road. And that is the last thing any LBS can handle.
Continue to walk your journey, feel your feelings, use that gift of self awareness to identity what your feeling and why. I think when we feel numb it is a coping skill we use to protect ourselves which is not always a bad thing. But eventually we too must turn and face our emotions. Even if they aren't pretty and hurt like hell.
Sorry if I over stepped, I know I am no where near as wise as Stayed but I posting my thoughts and feelings helps me to process my thoughts.
I just entered reconnection (so far so good and hoping it sticks) so I know all the feelings you're feeling. Big giant hugs!
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Any thoughts are helpful. I just wanted her thoughts on what she felt when she was reconnecting. Thank you for the three stage part. He's going through depression and withdrawal. That part I know. :P
Any thoughts here are good for all of us.
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Thank you ladies for your responses. It has been very helpful. I am reading, reading, reading to try to help myself become a better me. I haven't got to the point yet where I am doing it for me alone. I still constantly think of him and that if I change he will come back. But this forum is a godsend for me and I'm feeling stronger. I am reading a book right now called "The gifts of imperfection" by Brene' Brown. It is a book about accepting who you are instead of trying to be perfect for others. If anyone knows of any good helpful reading material please share! I am looking for things to help with self-growth. I understand about the MLC and all that. I want to read positive uplifting things to bring me up! Next I will read Ms. Brown's other book "I thought it was just me (but it isn't). Making the journey from 'what will people think' to 'I am enough'."
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Your response was excellent HappierDays, far better them mine would have been. Without a doubt my h returned uncooked. He was also in depression, severe depression, withdrawal (along with some OW withdrawal), and acceptance was a long time coming.
I didn't know about those last 3 stages though, which might have made that time a little easier for me. The only thing I think I did right, was I did not back away from him. I was never afraid to push. I honestly felt that if he ran off again, SO BE IT! When I returned, I regarded this as my last attempt at "salvaging" our marriage. I definitely gave him more chances then my patience normally would have tolerated but, I really did want to be VERY SURE in my mind, that our marriage could not be SAVED!
I think knowing about these last 3 stages would have made that time a little easier for me. I still would have pushed, I still would not have been his doormat, I still would not have been AFRAID to challenge him, but I would have at least understood what I was seeing.
The one thing that bothered me the most, was how SUSPICIOUS he was of me, after all HE HAD DONE and he was questioning if he could TRUST the changes he saw in me.
Crazy making. Without a doubt, it is the hardest thing I ever did.
Hugs Stayed
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I can say I too am at the point if he goes,he goes. It would hurt alot,but going through some of the stuff he's been doing has pushed me to this point. Ow is gone but he can drive me bananas some days. Last night I put the bigger spoons in the small spoon spot in the silverware tray! Really? He has become a nit picker.
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Where do confusion and ambivalence fit :(?
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So, I have a question for the Reconciled... I can see exH's crisis working out just as I thought. This may get long, so I apologize in advance and feel free not to read!
Seven to ten years, right, for the average MLC, plus over 50% of second Ms in midlife fall apart after 5 years... So here I am at 5 years post BD and ex is starting to wake up. He has shown NO SIGNS of wanting to R, but he has done other weird things, like name his boat after me, continue to pay spousal after I told him he didn't have to (and this was a man who tried to take me back to court for pennies of child support), and be much kinder in all his correspondence. Plus, I am engaged, so if it is true that they have to know you are totally disengaged to kick them in gear, that all happened.
So, I sit here in a position to break off my engagement and take up a stand. I won't, but I wonder about women who do. How do you look at them as MEN again? I am so far from the "damsel who needs a big strong man, macho muscle worshipper." I have always liked intellectual nerds who can't change their own oil... BUT, I am still a woman, and while it never bothered me that I was more of the man in our R than he was, I think I thought that when push came to shove and I NEEDED a man, he would be strong and be up to the challenge. But, he wasn't, when life got tough, he bailed. And in most cases around here, so did all yours. And then he M'ed OW and is starting to see that life getting tougher than he thought, so he is starting to think about bailing again. I do truly believe that if I wanted to pave the way, now would be the time to do it, but I think I would feel like I am paving the way for a pansy-a$$ (won't finish but dudes on the board know what I want to say...) that I could continue to take care of the rest of my life... How did you NOT feel like that? Do you truly feel like this man is your rock that you can lean on and who will be there when life gets tough again?
If I had any inkling to take up that stand, I would have to give up an amazing man. Granted, it is not a bowl of cherries. My kids are still DEEPLY unhappy, and do not approve of either of our new partners. And I struggle every day with how to reconcile that. But, on the other hand, I found an LBS who loves me for ME, for who I am, and especially for all the trials I have endured BECAUSE that AH put me through hell. I made awesome friends, I got great jobs, and lived so many things thanks so his MLC. When you R'ed, did you give up your new life and new friends, or did he accept them, knowing that these were the people who saw you through the darkness, that KNOW the pit of hell HE made you walk through. And could THEY accept him, KNOWING what they saw?
So, I just wonder how you do it, what it's like. How do you not look at him like a man-child that is fragile and NOT manly. You can think I'm shallow, but I wonder if I could ever have great sex with a man that didn't make me feel a little submissive (not 50 Shades here, but you know, a MAN). And I still come back to my therapist who told me right after BD that if patterns hold, he will be back in six months, or he will wake up after his third M when he has run all he can and realizes it is not the women he picks, but himself. And she warned me then, that I didn't want to be number 3, so be careful. And I won't, but I can see how I might, especially if I hadn't already found someone awesome... But that's all beside the point. What I want to know is how and how long does it take for you to really look at them as MEN, or am I the only one with gender role issues?
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Hi LisaLives:
I'm willing to answer your question. I will give you some insight into my life. The past and the present and I shall leave the future to pan out, as it will!
Although like all marriages, we had our "ups and downs", for the most part we had a great marriage. His profession took him away from home a lot but when he was home, we always found many fun things to do. We always loved walking, tobogganing, skiing, hiking, biking. Even with the appearance of 5 children in 7 years, we still got out and about. A lot.
We found affordable ways to entertain ourselves. Picnicking at many of the lakes near us. Walking. Hiking. Volksmarchs. Drinking wine. Enjoying coffee and hot chocolate at the cafe's. Eating pizza. The kids and my h were wizards at renaming things. There was a Speck Cooking, which looked like a pizza only no cheese and no tomato sauce. It was delicious though... the kids and hubby called it MEDIEVAL PIZZA... they figured mozzarella cheese and tomato sauce had not been invented when this was first discovered... hence it's name.
WE would bike all day Saturday and Sunday's (when he was home) even when he wasn't I would often take the kids to the Stadt Park near by with a picnic and we would play on the swings and look at the animals and birds in the cages. Many times we went off in our "old second hand car" we called it the "beater", and would attend beerfests/winefest/octoberfests, you name it. We had a camper and toured all German, France, Italy, Spain, Austria, Switzerland, Britain, Scotland, Belgium, Holland... we were always on the go. In fact, we went so much, we were the 'GO TO PEOPLE' whenever anybody was thinking of going somewhere.
I sort of thought I might have been embellishing all these activities but this Christmas, 4 of our 5 children started telling their wives and husbands and kids about all the things we used to do. For some reason, these activities came up a lot this Christmas.
You know, it was wonderful walking down memory lane like that. The amazing part, it was all instigated by our children. Our kids are now 36, 35, 34, 32 and 29, I think it was one of the most pleasant Christmases we have had in many years. So many wonderful memories.
If our marriage had not survived, sure, we would STILL have had those memories, but that isn't the point. The point I am trying to make, it was THOSE MEMORIES that convinced me, THAT SAVING OUR MARRIAGE WAS A GOOD IDEA. We had so many good times LisaLives. WE had such a joyful history. Sure, we had some royal battles. We had some unpleasant incidents with our kids. A few drunken episodes. We worried about the "drugs" for a while. We were a family, we weren't perfect, but we had ALL WEATHERED ALL THOSE THINGS TOGETHER. We had some near fatal experiences as well, with 5 children, $hit happens. A terrible head injury, that by some MIRACLE, our sun not only survived but came through with no SIDE effects, no damage whatsoever, not even a loss in hearing, which they were positive he would lose.
WE WERE BLESSED LisaLives. The truth is, we had FAR, FAR more wonderful memories, far, far more REASONS to mend our FAMILY then we did to let it go.
My husband had a pretty damn good track record. Hi crisis lasted about a total of 10 years. The first 7 years in the early stages of his crisis, he was not easy to live with, BUT, he was not like that all the time. Without a doubt, the unpredictable behaviour was rare in the early years and became progressively more constant until we arrived here in Europe. We had 2.5 amazing years. Much like the first 22 years of our marriage. I honestly had concluded that he just needed a change, that he was burned out from almost 30 years in the military.
Then wham... our whole world exploded. For 2 full years after that, my life was a nightmare. Then he returned and slowly returned to the man I knew and loved. My h could change his own oil, my car as well, put on our snow tires and did so, changed the brakes himself... he kept our wedding toaster working for over 20 years... the same for our washer and dryer. Part of the reason we have what we have now, is because he was so good at keeping our appliances going.
WE committed to strict savings regime. Yet, we helped our children through school, dressed them well, sent them on school trips and spent many wonderful years together on vacations around the world. We now enjoy hours at our cottage surrounded by our children and our grandchildren. Our children join us over here in Europe and we take them to wonderful resorts. Wine and dine them. Play with our grandchildren. Allow our children to go off on vacation while we KEEP their children.
I am sure I would have been surrounded by my children and grandchildren. I expect I would have cared for them while their parents were away, but instead, my h and I do it now, as a COUPLE... as GRANDMA Stayed and Poppa Stayed. We love it. Our life is just about perfect. We would have MISSED ALL of this, if we had not reconciled.I SEE my h as even MORE OF A MAN, then he ever was. He had the courage to face what he did. He had the strength to stick it out (I did not make his return easy, that I can assure you). He was not too proud to "grovel", he begged for his OWN FORGIVENESS, not just mine. He dug down deep and found it within himself to see the horrible things he did and to make amends. He accepted my new friends as his friends and even helped them to understand, that THIS WAS NOT ABOUT THEM! My h was always MANLY, extremely brilliant as well, successful, loving, great father and an AMAZING grandfather. While somehow continued to care about a father who didn't give a damn about him or any of his brother. And to this day, my h remains a loyal, loving brother.
All man there. All man.
So tell me LisaLives.... what GUARANTEE do you have that this WONDERFUL new partner, will always, love, cherish, respect and LOVE YOU JUST FOR WHO YOU ARE, then I do that my h WON'T love me like that for the rest of his/our days.
There are no guarantee's LisaLives. We live, we die. In between, we do the best we can. I think my husband and I have done much better then most. We have relished our life together. We had some tough years but those years, have ONLY helped us to APPRECIATE what we have now, EVEN MORE THEN EVER.
Not saying you won't have a good life with your new partner LisaLives... but one thing we know for certain, your children will NEVER have the history with your new partner, than our children and ourselves, will have/would have had, with their biological parent and our spouse/x-spouse.
I'll take my chances with what I have now. I had him for 28 years before he went midlife crazy, if it takes him that long to have it happen again, I'll count myself lucky.
Hugs Stayed
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Beautiful, Stayed. Exactly why I would take my H back.
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Thanks Stayed, There are never any guarantees--still no guarantee I won't wake up tomorrow and go bats#$% crazy, if I'm not already...
And like I said, it's not as if I am looking at a real opportunity or anything, but the tiny stander in me ALWAYS wonders... You're a strong and lucky woman. And, I would argue, your H is a strong man, also. I still come back here looking for answers, for patterns and formulas. Who wins, who loses, when do you know, how do you know? It still bothers me that I don't get to know the ending... I always thought I knew what I was living for, what my ending would be--boring, steady and expected. Now, every day I am faced with choices and decisions I never thought I would make and every single one leads me further from the end I expected... And now, five years out, it's like I am so different that I can't even look behind me and see the person I was and the life I had. And I wonder how you even do that--start over... Anyway, it's all just strange right now, another stage, another perspective... Just when you think you're done, it all changes again, just to keep you on your toes, I guess. Karma for the arrogance of thinking I had a boring, steady existence, I guess ;-)... Love and light, ll
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Great post stayed.
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ahhhhhhhhhhhh LisaLives, I love you girl. I love your insight and your input. You keep this forum HONEST. Your one of our best "assets"!
No guarantee's sweetie. Sometimes, you just got to close your eyes, plug your nose and step off the cliff!
Hugs Stayed
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I love both Lisa's question and Stayed's response. First of all, it is fascinating that your xH seems to be coming to his senses a bit, perhaps even waking up from the proverbial fog. I think sometimes part of me just want my H to 'wake up', and that I'm not sure whether I really would want him back if he did. Those days I question myself and wonder whether I am just standing to prove him wrong. Now, I don't think I am; I'm standing to heal and to not make any premature decisions, really. I feel that so far, I have used the time wisely, and I would not have wanted to be without it. I have been thinking the same as Lisa about what I would do if he would come back in terms of my new friends. I would NOT be willing to give them up, EVEN if they wouldn't like him and he wouldn't like them. He would have to just live with it. I could never go back, only create something new with him.
Hugs,
Gx
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Stayed - your answer on its own should become a sticky.
It gives courage to those of us who 18 months- 3 years in wonder why we still stand and it also provides a good reality check as to who the real H is. It helps us all question whether the marriage we had was what we had hoped for in the first place. The good memories should always outweigh the bad ones and even then the bad ones can be measured by how you responded and dealt with them.
What keeps me standing is just that. There were 2 occasions when H thought he would lose me -sudden illness and then his boat being caught in a storm mid Atlantic. On those 2 occasions he made me very aware that he was terrified of losing me and that he loved me so much. Those two points stick in my mind and somehow keep me going even when there are days when I wake up and think " umm I'm done!"
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:) ohhhhhhhhhhhh S&G, the number of times I thought... "I'm done... I just C A N ' T do this anymore!" AND that was when I thought we were reconciling! hehehe. Honestly, I didn't know there was a "before" stage. I thought once we were back in the same house, we were reconciling.
The thing is, I didn't want to rewrite our past. I didn't want to embellish it either. That was what made this Christmas such an "eye opener". Having the children, laughing and regaling their spouses and kiddies with all the "fun" things we used to do, AS A FAMILY, while in Spain, France, all over Europe and Britain, plus the United States and Canada. Listening to them, I realized we had really packed in a lot of wonderful memories for all of us.
My h could be a very self centered man, truly he could be. Much of that though, was my fault, as I was old fashioned and believed that his job was to support us, make the MONEY so we could enjoy our life. In my mind, the only way he could do that well, was to be able to FOCUS on his PROFESSION. We both can see that we let it get out of hand. Fortunately, we are able to discuss this with our children.
My h is just as willing to talk about these things as I am. More so in fact, as we are now seeing "cracks" in our older children's marriages. They are seeing them as well and are now realizing that our DECISION to stay together and work through our PROBLEMS, was really very brave and very wise. They can see first hand, that it is worth the effort when they see how much their dad and I enjoy being together.
We are able to talk so honestly with them and they are seeing, there is value and truth in our words. They have children, they want their family whole. They can see through us, they have a CHOICE!
Hugs Stayed
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I feel I have an obligation to also say, that NOT ALL MARRIAGES are salvageable! Some of them, really never were. If you had a marriage like that, then it is better to LET IT GO... and find true joy and happiness.
I am only discussing why I felt my/our marriage was worth fighting for. I'm not making up a new history. We always enjoyed our time with each other and our children. We definitely had some darn good "disputes" as well. There were lot's of times when we disagreed about the best approach or whether we really had to put away THAT MUCH MONEY, each month.
Only YOU know what is best for you. Hanging on out of shear stubbornness, fear or living up to "other people's/things" expectations, is not a good enough reason. Remaining lonely and sad for the rest of your life is not an option either... at least not in my mind, it isn't.
I'm not sure how many of us truly realize the miracle our lives are. The thousands of eggs over a woman's lifetime and the billions of sperms from our partners, and somehow, we were the product of the most RANDOM miracle, EVER! Our lives deserve to be celebrated. Enjoyed. Treasured. We are not intended to live alone and lonely. We were created to SHARE ourselves.
Don't waste your lives praying and waiting for something to happen. Get out there and live your life. If your MLCer finds his/her way back to you, then WONDERFUL. If your MLCer is willing to work and truly prove to you, their sincere regret for wasting ONE MOMENT of their life with you, then why wouldn't you grab that? If they are not.... why would you WASTE a single moment more, trying to make them want you!
We have to let ourselves live. If life offers us something better, be it the return or our loved one, or the arrival of a new one, then we should grab it, enjoy it and share ourselves.
Please my friends. Choose to live! Choose to live well! Choose to live this privileged life you have been granted, as fully as you possibly can. NO REGRETS, my friends. All of you have tried everything, if you move on, your God wanted you to. Make no mistake. There is NOBODY on this forum that has not and is not giving their Spouse, every possible opportunity to resume their lives with us. If they can't see that, then it is certainly not your fault.
Hugs Stayed
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Don't waste your lives praying and waiting for something to happen. Get out there and live your life. If your MLCer finds his/her way back to you, then WONDERFUL. If your MLCer is willing to work and truly prove to you, their sincere regret for wasting ONE MOMENT of their life with you, then why wouldn't you grab that? If they are not.... why would you WASTE a single moment more, trying to make them want you!
We have to let ourselves live. If life offers us something better, be it the return or our loved one, or the arrival of a new one, then we should grab it, enjoy it and share ourselves.
Please my friends. Choose to live! Choose to live well! Choose to live this privileged life you have been granted, as fully as you possibly can. NO REGRETS, my friends. All of you have tried everything, if you move on, your God wanted you to. Make no mistake. There is NOBODY on this forum that has not and is not giving their Spouse, every possible opportunity to resume their lives with us. If they can't see that, then it is certainly not your fault.
Hugs Stayed
Wow Stayed - Powerful! Thank you
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Topsy, not that I am DISCOURAGING anybody from praying... to my way of thinking... DO IT ALL!! Pray, and live.. :)
hugs Stayed
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Thanks Stayed. Powerful homily, every word a pearl.
xox
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Stayed- so true!
We have to continue to move forward and live our lives to the fullest, we owe that to ourselves and our children. These men/women are broken, fractured individuals. The choices they make effect EVERYONE that cares about them. They don't care. They are too caught up in blaming the LBSer for their unhappiness and for the mess they created. We are responsible for saving ourselves, we have to let go, let them figure it out. Hopefully, they will figure it out, reach out and try to make amends.
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We are responsible for saving ourselves, we have to let go, let them figure it out. Hopefully, they will figure it out, reach out and try to make amends.
Amen Blindside! Amen!
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Stayed: I feel like the words about living your life are just what I needed to hear. I have been asking God to please shut the door or let's reconcile but you are so right. If I'm ready to move on, I need to do so. If H wants me he can show that to me. I'm in no big hurry to file for divorce but I do feel like my time for being done is approaching fairly quickly.
Thanks so much for your words of wisdom!
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I look at it this way. Living my life, learning from this mess of MLC, concentrating on myself are all setting good examples for my children for one (I understand your comment, Stayed, about worrying out loud whether one of the kids would follow in your H's footsteps), for others going through this (if you have read my thread I have my moments of awful but bounce back to positive) and even for H. Even when the boys and I move out he will know that I am living my life to the fullest, participating in my community, making friends and feeding my soul a healthy diet of love, forgiveness, passion, and spirit. As opposed to deceit, drink, and general hedonism.
I have come to believe that part of this journey for me is to encourage others who are going though it. To help them see what an opportunity this is for personal growth. And to support them as their hearts heal.
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I have come to believe that part of this journey for me is to encourage others who are going though it. To help them see what an opportunity this is for personal growth. And to support them as their hearts heal.
I love this rubyhearted. That's exactly how I feel. If they just have one person to hold their hand and know somebody is there for them, then I am paying forward my due's. Then, they in turn do the same for another! I do it with pleasure.
Well said honey... hugs Stayed
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Wounded bird, there is nobody else we can do this for! WE didn't ask to be here, but this is where we ended up, so we have no choice but to DO IT FOR OURSELVES.
The rest is out of our hands! :) hugs Stayed
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Copied this from my thread as I think it helps with where you can get to in the "stages"
just a copy of an e-mail I received today from someone who I GALed with from Nov -last week as we prepared a show together. I hadn't seen her since BD and yet had worked with her for the previous 5 years in the show capacity.
She sent me this - so uplifting and encouraging for all of us..
S&D I see you as a stronger person now, than you were when you last worked with us.
I firmly believe that when we find ways through rubbish times in our lives, instead of finding ways out of them, that process builds us; it can give our children another perspective on us - letting them see us as individuals in our own right, as well as their parent and a wife.
If we show them that we still have choices in how we live our life, even when things go pear-shaped, we help them to grow too.
We can become rounder individuals, 'new' people, resilient and positive.
You have always struck me as a bold and courageous person, with huge talent.
I now see in you a freedom that I didn't see before, and the society has benefited from you sharing it with us this year.
I'm sending tons of good wishes for the best possible outcome for you, as you work through this time.
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Don't waste your lives praying and waiting for something to happen. Get out there and live your life. If your MLCer finds his/her way back to you, then WONDERFUL. If your MLCer is willing to work and truly prove to you, their sincere regret for wasting ONE MOMENT of their life with you, then why wouldn't you grab that? If they are not.... why would you WASTE a single moment more, trying to make them want you!
We have to let ourselves live. If life offers us something better, be it the return or our loved one, or the arrival of a new one, then we should grab it, enjoy it and share ourselves.
Please my friends. Choose to live! Choose to live well! Choose to live this privileged life you have been granted, as fully as you possibly can. NO REGRETS, my friends. All of you have tried everything, if you move on, your God wanted you to. Make no mistake. There is NOBODY on this forum that has not and is not giving their Spouse, every possible opportunity to resume their lives with us. If they can't see that, then it is certainly not your fault.
Well said!! This is exactly how I feel about it too, and now I am off the hamster wheel, even though I am exhausted, think that I can't spend anymore time on H and wondering if or when he would contact. I have let him go, and with that comes a sense of freedom for me to grow and see what is in store for me and my children. Who knows what tomorrow brings re H, but I'm sure as heck not sitting around waiting to find out. If we are to stay apart then so be it. This man doesn't define me, and who am I to judge his journey. I think this comes with acceptance.
We need to focus on us and if our paths are to cross then they will, and if they aren't, there's nothing we can do to change it. As we have learned on this site, there is nothing we did to cause it, and nothing we can do to stop it. A good reason to "live as they are never coming home"..... it really helps.
I shouldn't do this, as it is not my thread... but YES! YES! YES! This is exactly what we should do. If our paths are meant to cross, they MOST DEFINITELY WILL, until then... LIVE and LIVE WELL! hugs Stayed
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Wow Songanddance, that was very nice of your friend to acknowledge your growth :) Very nice of you to share!
I would agree :)
(hugs)
31andcounting
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I agree 31, what an amazing confirmation S&D. You must feel so good about yourself. I know none of us would have chosen to go through this, but there is almost ALWAYS a silver lining, to every dreadful ordeal!
Hugs Stayed
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I have been on te page of enjoy life and live it to its fullest. However, I'm finally thinking why am I bending over backward to bring h home. If h wants to reconcile then h will make that clear, ...getting to the attitude of if you don't love ,me why should I love you? Yea!!
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I'm trying to embrace acceptance. My H served me papers he had prepared New Years Day in response to my suicide attempt. Then he tried throwing me out of my home. I hung in. Am home and he lives elsewhere part of the week. My point is: clearly he hates me. He doesn't make eye contact or speak to me much And we are essentially NC but living together half time. It's a nightmare. I think for me I primarily feel sadness not anger. Shock and disbelief still at times. I look over at him and he never steals a glance at me. I am still attracted to him physically and I often wonder if he feels anything like that toward me but I'm pretty sure he's banging a 24 yr old. He's 44. Most days I struggle to go the whole day without crying and every day I tell myself not to think about the future. When I do I get too suicidal. Lately I've been giving myself permission to NOT feel pain or grief. I also hug myself since I have no one and I say " I love you" if I feel uneasy. It's effective but I do still cry often. Trying to stop doing it every day. Its not good
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I'm finally thinking why am I bending over backward to bring h home. If h wants to reconcile then h will make that clear, ...getting to the attitude of if you don't love me, why should I love you? Yea!!
Exactly Wounded Bird! You can't MAKE a person LOVE YOU! Seriously, we don't hit our head against the wall over and over again! Why would we subject ourselves to REJECTION, DISRESPECT, INDIFFERENCE? If they don't want us, that is THEIR LOSS!
Get healthy! Find the joy and peace within yourself. Share your wonderful self with people that want to be around you, who enjoy your company as much as you enjoy theirs. Stop hitting your head against the wall!
Hugs Stayed
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A friend of mine sent me this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qDc_5zpBj7s
I just love it... hugs Stayed
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Ha ha ha!! ;D
I love it too, Stayed - thanks for sharing!!!
xox
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Lovely thread, some great posts. Especially stayed in response to excellent questions from LisaLives.
I also took on board the reminder from LL that MLC lasts on average 7-10 years. I am starting to feel "done" but it's only been three years so I can't really expect H to be "done"
I suppose what I'm feeling is done with looking backwards at what was and ready to look forward to what may be. LBS stage of "acceptance". Phew what a journey it's been for the last three years to get to this stage. But now I feel like I can stop and rest awhile.
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LLL: I've only been in for a year but I feel like I'm close to the stage of acceptance. I still question if my H is even in MLC, he most closely fits being a low-energy wallower, but I'm still not sure. This marriage has certainly seen better days! What I don't understand is that doesn't MLC usually start sometime before we realize it? I'm wondering if I am dealing with MLC, then how far in are we actually. I know we are over a year out but I don't know what's been brewing inside him for so long.
It's easy to look back and know what you should change but oh so difficult to look ahead and get perspective and make major life decisions. I ask for God's guidance but God gave me feet and a brain for a reason so one day a choice will be made by me.
LLL: Rest for a while then a new journey can being.
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I see a lot of people describing their H's as wallowers or clingers etc. Is there an article here that discusses this? I had thought I had read all of RCR's stuff but maybe I missed that somehow? Could someone please direct me to where I might find this information. I don't know if it will help me in any way, but I would like to know what I am dealing with, It is definitely not a clinger.
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http://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/mlc_overview_contact-types.html
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I am still going between the first four
I just can't get to acceptance 1 year on
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Ahh, don't be too hard on yourself Hopeful. You can't force it it just happens when it happens . It's a huge thing and 1 yr isn't very long in this l'm afraid.
l'm well over 2 and have only just recently started to feel some kind of acceptance yet still back slide all the time.
Be good to yourself your doing just fine. Pat yourself on the back in fact :)
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I'm enjoying reading everyone's posts....I'm just attaching. Only one comment: I first thought MLC lasted from 2 to 7 years. How did it become 5? I guess most LBS found that 2 years was hardly ever enough replay anymore????
I'm at the ANGER-SADNESS stage. They come together in MLC hell.
SW
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Only one comment: I first thought MLC lasted from 2 to 7 years. How did it become 5? I guess most LBS found that 2 years was hardly ever enough replay anymore????
I guess because some of us that have been here since the beginning have seen some shorter ones that last two to 7 and now that we are at 6 or 7 years and no end is in sight,
maybe the estimates should be revised.
Oh and as an aside my ex left REPLAY 5 1/2 years ago but still is in escape and avoid mode,
The crazy antics only lasted about 6 months.
Escape and avoid seems to be a more of a lifetime event.
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Oh and as an aside my ex left REPLAY 5 1/2 years ago but still is in escape and avoid mode,
The crazy antics only lasted about 6 months.
Escape and avoid seems to be a more of a lifetime event.
OP, I thought that escape and avoid were part of replay - please elaborate on the differences.
Thanks!
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Oh and as an aside my ex left REPLAY 5 1/2 years ago but still is in escape and avoid mode,
The crazy antics only lasted about 6 months.
Escape and avoid seems to be a more of a lifetime event.
OP, I thought that escape and avoid were part of replay - please elaborate on the differences.
Well there is this behavior
http://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/mlc_overview_separation_replay.html
Traditionally the night or a few nights before his wedding, a man has a Bachelor Party which often involves naked women and copious amounts of alcohol.
For me that all subsided after 6 months.
followed by deep depression and escape and avoid.
http://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/mlc_overview_separation_escape-and-avoid.html
I guess it is the distinction between a low energy wallower/vanisher, and a high energy replayer.
Maybe it is the difference between masked and un-masked depression, or covert depression and overt depression.
I guess I would classify the high energy stage of REPLAY to be inside the ESCAPE and Avoid that RCR describes.
Not sure if that explains it or not.
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To me Replay is the MLCer looking for the lost "something" to see if they are still capable of doing whatever the lost "something" is.
Escape and avoid is ever present denial until the awakening and genuine desire to reconcile. Escape and avoid is probably still there in reconnection.
My H has always been interested in projects. Yet after his 50th, I can pinpoint how the escape and avoid projects started (moving to a house that still needs work, another plane, first boat,) and then escalated into replay (second boat, desire to sail across the Atlantic single handed and OW) leading to BD 2 years ago.
He is still in replay as there is now a motorbike and a project car but OW not so much on the horizon. So he may be shifting out of replay but is still very much in escape and avoid and I guess has been for the last 7 years.
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That makes sense SnD ;)
Thanks for clarifying.
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That makes sense SnD ;)
Thanks for clarifying.
Agree with S&D, she gave you a much better explanation, thanks.
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After our mediation, I left and went to the car. My H came to my car and rubbed my face and said I'm sorry. I have no idea what he was sorry for or which thing he did that he was sorry for. He has done so much stuff against me that there is no way he will remember all of it. I doubt too that I will get a sorry from him as he won't remember. We are at the tail end of our divorce and he's still in replay with OW. They have started a couple of business together in her name. He's doing the same thing to her he did to me. She's running everything. I have been told here on the board that my H is one of the worst MLCer they have seen. He doesn't stop being aggressive and passively aggressive towards me then he'll be all nice talking to me. It's like if he does something nice I need to look out because something is coming. I have been dealing with this for a year now. His escape is huge!
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OH wow, its like you are telling my story. My H bought a car paid cash and put in OW name. I am also in the trail end of my divorce. My H lives with OW and is miserable. Monster's on me all the time, and says that I was a horrible wife the whole 9 years. I think after his bar goes out of business and the divorce is final and he sees how much he is going to have to pay me in child support I think he will spiral down to rock bottom.
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OMG! How did i miss this awesome thread? Stayed is on fire!!! and I love it.
I think if I am not mistaken, the timeline starts at BD,,,? And that was in 2013. Our divorce was finalised September 2014. I do not hear much from him at all. The only time I hear from him is when he wants something and if he doesn't get his way, he runs back to the lawyer. I am thinking, he knows the only way to get to me is to deplete me financially and he is doing just that. He wants all the attention for himself. He also tell people it is my fault for this divorce. Blames me for his unhappiness. I have a difficult time accepting this but there is nothing I can do to convince these other people. I just pray that one day the truth will come out. He even refused to honour our boy's wish. Oh well!!!
Being a LBS is very confusing for me. I guess this is where my growth comes in. I have to learn to accept that the kids will still have a relationship with him even though it kills me that he is so mean to me. He also lied to the IRS thus I get a very small amount of child support. He has anger issues......
Sometimes I wonder if it is MLC? How do you define that? He is 57 and this started 2 years ago. Some of the things he said goes hand in hand with what I read here......For example: he used to monster at me for the smallest and ridiculous thing. He brought things up from 20+ years ago. Once he was done yelling, he would say, I hate to do this to you. .....??????? And once he said, the marriage vows were written by man thus is not God's words. ??????
I think I have move on....just that my left brain wants answers. Will I be able to get them?
One of you mentioned that new man will have flaws as well and I agree with that. What if both of us (new man & I) are LBS?
Just like ethansmama posted, my ex took out a life insurance and OW is the secondary beneficiary after me, not the kids. He has to take that life insurance per court order while we still have a minor child.
I must admit I was very calm during the divorce. He monstered at his lawyers. His reason for a divorce is because I yell too much. ..... oh Well!!
Since BD, i have to get a job (we were self business owners) and be a single mum. Like most of you, I too made new friends and very awesome ones. I am enjoying my "freedom". The only set back is finances. BUT< I know in time, I will be fine.
I was a mess in the beginning and thought I was the only one. I was surprised when I found this site and knowing that it (sorry) is just not me helped me alot to open up. I had a very nice mentor and of course Stayed pulled me through. THANK YOU!
So, I am here and my ex is living with OW prior to divorce ....1.5 years now. I will sit back and relax and see where all this will end up. Not that MLC range is 2-7 years, ........ I know I have grown but I still have some more work to do. If not for the the ex for the next man in my live.
Hugs to all of you for your inspiration.
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Good to hear from you eloise61213... you are sounding so good. If we don't learn anything from this, then all this pain was for not... I refuse to believe we went through this for NOTHING. No WAY, we did not go through this for nothing... we will learn and grow!
Hugs Stayed
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After our mediation, I left and went to the car. My H came to my car and rubbed my face and said I'm sorry. I have no idea what he was sorry for or which thing he did that he was sorry for. He has done so much stuff against me that there is no way he will remember all of it. I doubt too that I will get a sorry from him as he won't remember. We are at the tail end of our divorce and he's still in replay with OW. They have started a couple of business together in her name. He's doing the same thing to her he did to me. She's running everything. I have been told here on the board that my H is one of the worst MLCer they have seen. He doesn't stop being aggressive and passively aggressive towards me then he'll be all nice talking to me. It's like if he does something nice I need to look out because something is coming. I have been dealing with this for a year now. His escape is huge!
Hello Unconditional:
I totally understand where you are coming from and how you feel. I too was told that my Ex was one of the worst MLC'ers. He continues to be hateful and vengeful whenever possible. Please know that you are not alone in this journey. Keep working on you and you will thrive. Hugs.
Faithfully.
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I don't think mine is the worst, but I too get very nervous when he is nice. That's when I need to have my guard up the most. He gets an A+ in manipulation. That's very hard to get through my brain, that when he's nice I need to electrify the fences.
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There is an increasing number of newbies to this site so I am bumping this up and recommending that you look at the previous two threads as we have tried to look at the LBS journey in this MLC mess and thread 1 deals with BD and the early days.
I also wanted to look at detaching. There are some brilliant threads/stickies on this in resources but I notice that many newbies see detachment as a straight line and then berate themselves when they go backwards.
I see it similar to a dance all by itself - set to a salsa rhythm.
So here goes- Forward- backward -forward -forward - stop
Forward- forward -turn and sway
Forward- backward- backward- forward- stop
Shimmy to the left shimmy to the right and sway.
In our pursuit of detachment we all go forward, we all go backwards (I have recently) we all stop and wonder what next? We all sway with indecision and we all shimmy left and right to accommodate others (including H, children, colleagues and friends)
The main thing is to accept this and keep your eyes forward even though your feet want to do something else.
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Well , its been three months since the affair and the bomb drop and the the divorce papers being thrown in my face , she shows no remorse , only im sorry that you hurt i really am , cant talk about it the relationship we had , or the affair she is not the person i married i dont know what stage i am i do know i have good days and bad days but i highly doubt she is ever going to come back i mean i was the only stability she ever had in her life she knows that i love her but she dont want to hear about it i just dont understand how 6 years of a marriage and all the memories dont exist in that womans mind
we have a four year old daughter i rarely ever see no guilt on that from her she just says she will be fine
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we have a four year old daughter i rarely ever see no guilt on that from her she just says she will be fine
joseph,
I am sorry you are going through this terrible experience. But you have come to a place where there is lots of information & lots of support. Keep reading the articles & posting & reading others' threads.
You have been given advice about detaching & boundaries & no R talk. I hope that you have gotten yourself legal advice, since your W has apparently done so. Why are you not seeing your D? With your W's history & her current behavior, your D needs your stability & strength. You need to assure that your D is being cared for properly & not exposed to situations or people that could be harmful to her. If for no other reason, get legal advice about this & secure regular & frequent visitation, if not joint (or even full) custody.
Hugs,
HT
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Boomeranging between 3 and 5, crying, angry, dont want to deal. How the hell am i supposed to act around him?
What kind of vindictive stuff can i do to hurt him if he leaves, after all hes put me through...
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What kind of vindictive stuff can i do to hurt him if he leaves, after all hes put me through...
None whatsoever. Much as it hurts - always act with grace and dignity. Much as you want to hurt him - don't. Vent on here by all means but do nothing to the MLCer other than establish boundaries and stick to them. Your healing will be better for it.
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What kind of vindictive stuff can i do to hurt him if he leaves, after all hes put me through...
Agree with S&G
None whatsoever. Much as it hurts - always act with grace and dignity. Much as you want to hurt him - don't. Vent on here by all means but do nothing to the MLCer other than establish boundaries and stick to them. Your healing will be better for it.
Vindictive getting even....only poisons YOUR soul! The price is way TOO high!
Hugs Stayed
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Wanting revenge, being vindictive is part of the process. You will get past those feelings. I had them regularly. I didn't act on them, but I sure as heck dreamed about them. ;D They have faded. I no longer feel the need for that.
My focus now is to focus on me. Make my life better, more of what I want it to be. I don't care if he is happy as a clam, sad as can be, rich or poor. The only thing I care about is that I survive, find my way to thrive and make a wonderful home for d16.
Once I started focusing on that I didn't care anymore about revenge. I don't care what his life is like at all.
I used some tools to get there. I was obsessed with trying to get my truck back from him. I used the excuse that he's ruining my credit, it's my truck, he had no right. All true. But at what cost to myself to do this? So I would look at every big jacked up 4 wheel drive I passed and most of them contained old men or women. LOL I told myself that truck isn't so great. There's tons of them just like the one he's driving on the road and there is nothing special about them except what's in my own head. Took me a while, but I don't care anymore. I took the hit on the credit, kept my trailblazer, pay my bills, and let it go. It just wasn't worth the emotional chaos I was having over it.
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I find myself playing the victim quite often but it seems very defeating.
I think that the acceptance and forgiveness area is where I need to evenyually be.
I've got some 180's and mirror work to work on first.
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Good for you MPowers, once you realize you are behaving like a victim it's pretty much uphill from there. I healed in leaps and bounds once I realized what I was allowing this crisis of my husbands to DO TO ME!
You're on you way to moving forward...pat yourself on the back.
Hugs Stayed
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Vindictive getting even....only poisons YOUR soul! The price is way TOO high!
Agreed, plus I do believe it is key to detachment and healing. I think there's a part in us all that wants the MLCer to wake and feel such remorse and guilt and come home begging for forgiveness, but it might never happen and we don't have time to wait around and see.
My focus now is to focus on me. Make my life better, more of what I want it to be. I don't care if he is happy as a clam, sad as can be, rich or poor. The only thing I care about is that I survive, find my way to thrive and make a wonderful home for d16.
Once I started focusing on that I didn't care anymore about revenge. I don't care what his life is like at all.
Agreed. There comes a point where they don't take up as much space in our thoughts anymore and little by little, our own lives are full enough to enable that process. It takes time but we can get there.
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Agreed, plus I do believe it is key to detachment and healing. I think there's a part in us all that wants the MLCer to wake and feel such remorse and guilt and come home begging for forgiveness, but it might never happen and we don't have time to wait around and see.
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My focus now is to focus on me. Make my life better, more of what I want it to be. I don't care if he is happy as a clam, sad as can be, rich or poor. The only thing I care about is that I survive, find my way to thrive and make a wonderful home for d16.
Once I started focusing on that I didn't care anymore about revenge. I don't care what his life is like at all.
Agreed. There comes a point where they don't take up as much space in our thoughts anymore and little by little, our own lives are full enough to enable that process. It takes time but we can get there.
Exactly and this is where I am at and have been for a while. Things have happened recently in my own life to make me stop and really begin to evaluate what I do next.
I am the point of changing my life completely and it doesn't involve H. Even though he is clinging boomerang, I can't be doing with it anymore. I hate being lonely and feeling invisible to all except my children. Work has held me together for a while but I really feel that I am over that too and therefore the time has come for the next stage of this LBSer's life.
It's important to recognise that this will happen and that change in the LBS has to happen. You have to get through the grief, the anger, the pain and the sorrow that this all happened. You have to face life as a "statistic" You have to pick up the pieces and try to put them back together. You have to face cycling in tears, anger, frustration mixed with hope and joy. You have to face new things and it's scary.
The LBS should never stand completely still. Inner stillness and calm are important but it is just as valid to respond to the changes that occur and move forward.
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It's important to recognise that this will happen and that change in the LBS has to happen. You have to get through the grief, the anger, the pain and the sorrow that this all happened. You have to face life as a "statistic" You have to pick up the pieces and try to put them back together. You have to face cycling in tears, anger, frustration mixed with hope and joy. You have to face new things and it's scary!
This is SO true! It is scary but so liberating!
Hugs Stayed
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Agreed. All these emotions and the cycling of them have to be gone through. I hated and fought going through all this. I was afraid and stubborn and just didn't want to do it. I'm through most of it now. I've learned so much. The most unexpected lesson was that I had been shoving all those emotions aside for years, before this ever happened.
It's been a painful journey and I've wanted all these emotions and feelings to take a hike for a long time, but now I'm very grateful to feel again. Even painful feelings. Even tears. I'll take them all now. I never want to go through life again being an empty vessel.
Now that I've accepted them and let myself feel things have become much better. Sometimes I feel like there is still some black cloud raining on my parade at times, but it's not big deal anymore. I just have a cry or laugh and get on with things. I accept my down days and celebrate my good ones. So much better this way.
Facing new things can be very scary for sure. Remember when we were young and new things were exciting and scary? That's where this has taken me to. Still scary, but the excitement has returned. I thought all this would leave me broken and closed off and in some ways it probably has, but in much bigger ways it has made me more open and ready to face new challenges.
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Once we accept and let life lead us in the direction we should go, EVERYTHING becomes so much easier!
Sounding good toomanytears... :)
hugs Stayed
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Stage 5 Acceptance
I think Im here, have been for a few months. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it feels very emotionally neutral. I am able to face the fact that I may be a single person...no tears, no fears. I still feel some anger towards H, but only because he continues to make such mind numbing decisions.
It's not scary, or sad, or anything anymore. It just is what it is. My fear of dividing our assets has subsided. I think I've done a good job of keeping things together in my job, at the house, at the summer vacation home. I've learned A LOT. Mostly, I've learned that I'm very capable and very strong. I feel very strong. Things do not really weigh heavily on me any longer. I feel the accomplishment in tackling projects and completing them over time. Rome wasn't built in a day!
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Part 2 con't
Having cursor problems on this site!
I just want others to know that Acceptance seems to be what your aiming for. What my h does, says, thinks, no longer worries me. He's entitled to think any which way he wants, just as I am entitled to think my own way too. I'm ready to look out for myself and my family. When he wishes to rejoin us, he is going to have to run to catch up with us.
I've read many times that we should just tell our spouse that we are sorry that they feel this way. Well, I really am sorry that he feels this way. But, that's just too bad for him! I don't feel this way. I love my life and look forward to the balance of it.
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When he wishes to rejoin us, he is going to have to run to catch up with us.
MIMix,
I know that we all progress at our own pace depending on a lot of different variables, but I'm beginning to believe that the 2 1/2-3 year mark may be a turning point for many. BD was three years ago next month for me & I too have felt nearly completely detached for several months. I hadn't really thought of it in terms of acceptance, more as an emotional distance from it all.
My H has done me the "favor" of setting up all of the hurdles in pretty short order & I've jumped them all--he left home immediately to live with the OW, became pretty much a vanisher, got his D just past the 2 1/2 year mark, & immediately M'ed the OW. What is there left to fear?
All of the advice is here--take care of yourself, get healthy, GAL, get support, work on emotional detachment, protect yourself financially, & eventually the "gift of time" will reward you with a sense of peace or acceptance or detachment.
My life is 180 degrees from where it was 3 years ago, partly from necessity, but also by choice, MY choice. From housewife to full-time job, from country to city, from faithful wife to Stander to looking for new relationships.
IF my H ever wants to return, he will indeed have to run, not only to catch up with me, but to catch up with the honest, honorable man he used to be & the remorseful, insightful, appreciative man I would want to live with.
Hugs,
HT
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Wel said, HT. Yes, the best advice is all here.
People have to trust themselves enough to make that decision to turn away and Walk their own path.
I trust that my h will eventually want his family life once again. Really, I think he wants it right now but cannot yet find his way back. And where will I be? I'm no longer afraid that I can't make it alone. I'm pretty happy to be making plans for myself. I've dropped the hope, the longing, the desire to have him return. And, once again, each day that I see the sun rise on the horizon, it brings a warm smile to my face. This I am very, very happy about.
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I know that we all progress at our own pace depending on a lot of different variables, but I'm beginning to believe that the 2 1/2-3 year mark may be a turning point for many. BD was three years ago next month for me & I too have felt nearly completely detached for several months. I hadn't really thought of it in terms of acceptance, more as an emotional distance from it all.
I agree. I will be 3 years in March, and while I've accepted many things, it's been more recent that I realize I've truly accepted them.
MIMix, I do feel it's an emotionally neutral place. I occasionally feel some sadness about how things have happened, but mostly it just "is". More so, I am more interested in seeing what comes after now that my life is fully mine (with the caveat that I do still have some hurdles such as divorce to wade through).
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Medusa,
I think we all go through so darn much that's there isn't much else left at the end. Might as well give up. Hehehe. Surrender to the Universe.
Besides, your wheels just spin and you go NOWHERE. The sooner you stop spinning, the better your life will be.
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BD will have been 3 years ago at the end of the month :o and I have definitely changed.
I still have brief moments where I remember the all the crap and feel anger but they are not often and not very intense.
I don't feel like this mess defines me anymore (again I have my moments). I used to feel that the injustice that I suffered needed to be worn on my sleeve. I needed to people to know that I was wronged by the man that I loved - I needed them to know that I did not deserve this!
I have let go of this - yes, there is injustice in the world and many people have suffered wrongs that they did not deserve. I am no different than anyone else and I won't let it define who I am.
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Hey there,
I seem to be going through all the 5 stages every month. Although I haven't felt too much anger - apart from the moments I caught him lying so bluntly. I am so ready for acceptance and I do feel glimpses of it, but am certainly not there yet. I still need to be isolated to mourn and come to terms with the end of our old relationship. I do feel the old relationship is over, and I can't see myself going back to how it was. It would have to be a new kind of format I guess. But before I get there, I want to fully accept and feel whole myself. Does it just take time? How did this work for all of you who are accepting? Did it just happen or did you do things to get there? What was it?
Take care in the meantime
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anchor. for me it was meditation leading to mindfulness leading to the philosophy of Buddhism. (jon Kabit-zinn) being able to live in the moment or being able to pull yourself back from thoughts or outcomes. nothing ever works out the way you make it up in your head. still have my moments though but i can pull them back to my NOW reality.
sometimes its like thinking what would i have done if he had died. he didn't physically but the guy that i once knew did. i am sure his core is still there but unsure when that will surface. he is highly sensitive kind of guy and this man now, well i can see he is looking for something and the way he is looking for it in all the wrong places - changing location, women, clothing, music,..... well i dont like that guy. nor would i be dating him now. because he thinks he is someone else who is cool and funky and as one with teenagers. i know he knows underneath this is bull$h!te, but he is the only one to come through it.
through mediation and just being (sitting and deeply thinking) i can really ask myself the big questions and answer them profoundly as at the end of the day it is MY head. don't kid yourself. dont let anyone else inluence how your really feel. your the only one who has to live within yourself. be really truthful about your feelings. land on soft ground and be gentle with the person you are. believe that you can be a whole person. time.... time for you... time for him.... time. sucks but you really have to want to know yourself.. hope this helps.. just the way i helped myself
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What PJ said makes a lot of sense to me. 2 days after bd I started a new job. I was in survival mode. I then got promoted and after a bit I went into a kind of I got this mode. Fake it till I make it sort of thing. Then I pushed for even more gains in the job market and let's just say I made some unwise decisions in the pursuit of financial independence. I've been out of work for a couple of months now.
Maybe I nedced this time for self reflection. I didn't do a lot of it before. I just wanted to work myself until I was tired and then sleep. These last couple of months have been hard on me emotionally. I got so bored and sad I had to look at everything. Reflect on it all. My marriage, the 2 years of h's shenanigans, myself. I don't think I could look at it all this clearly before now. I guess it wasn't time for me.
I don't think I've probably accepted all this the right way. I kind of just don't care where h is in all this. That's not really acceptance but it's ok with me. What I have accepted is that I don't like h anymore and I don't want to be with him anymore. This is who he is now and how I feel about him now. I accept that.
Who knows what tomorrow will bring. So I accept this on a day to day basis. Who knows maybe somewhere down the road h will turn into some wonderful human being. LOL. Ok. It's h. That's not gonna happen. But one day at a time works for me. Wake up. H is still in crisis or whatever. Check. Then I say I don't want any part of that today and get on with my day. Each day I get aottle better. That's cool with me.
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Thanks PJ and TMT for your thoughts and advice. I admire you for your strength and self reflection. It's definitely a boost for me to find all of you people here wanting to learn and grow.
I guess I am currently coming to terms with accepting that I am a stander and that that is ok because that is how I feel. It's in my head and my heart and here where I am it is hard to explain to people as it is not the usual path. People expect me to D and that's about that. I need time and want to take it. So thanks PJ for pointing that out.
I also want to get on with my own life. I don't want to focus on a certain outcome in the future, I want to trust myself to take me on the right path which will lead me to healing and thriving again. Meditation helps me too and where I was doing Zen meditation before (counting from 1 to 10 and again and again) I have now started to use affirmations which are constructive and healing.
"Wake up. H is still in crisis or whatever. Check. Then I say I don't want any part of that today and get on with my day. Each day I get aottle better. That's cool with me."
I like this hands on approach, thanks TMT!
Take care in the meantime
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TMT,
When I think of Acceptance, I don't necessarily think it is about agreeing with or accepting that it is okay. No. It is accepting that they have made choices and that they are their's alone. These choices affect me but are not necessarily a reflection of me. It is accepting that others can move at free will just as I can.
I have never thought in these terms before now. I always thought that we made our way in life together as one. I now understand that this is not true...just a myth. Everyone has the right to make choices...good or bad. I'm just making sure that mine are right for me and something that I can be proud of, comfortable with, going forward.
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That's exactly how I see ACCEPTANCE MiMix. I can't fix anybody else but myself. I could finally accept that and even relish it. My responsibility was to myself and that was to BECOME the best person, I could possibly be, FOR MY OWNSELF... not my kids, not my parenta, not my husband but 100% for me. I knew that once I started accepted myself for the person I am and accepting others for the people they are... then my life was going to be just grand!
Love that posting MiMix... just love it! Well said.
Hugs Stayed
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Wise words MiMix, and something for me to work towards. It's like I completely hear and copy what you are saying and it resonates on me, but then in daily practise I find myself doing something else. Weird how that works.
It saddens me too. This LBS stuff seems to unravel the naked truth to me; that we are here all on our own when it comes down to it. That doesn't necessarily have to be a bad thing. Yet I wonder, why do human species then long for a spouse? Only some choose to stay by themselves, the majority wants to be with someone else right? Because the loneliness, the sheer and utter loneliness of being just by yourself is just too...well, lonely for us I guess.
So acceptance to me is also accepting that we're here all by ourselves on this planet. We are born alone an die alone. Yes, there might be other people around, but it's something that you need to do by yourself. Same with where I am now. I have the greatest of friends and family, they support me and I can join lunches, dinner, whenever I want. I don't have to be by myself. Yet I am and feel alone, I go to bed alone and wake up alone. I am the one that needs to deal, recover and heal. Accepting that is tough, yet I get glimpses that when I do, I'll be able to cope with anything.
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I don't even want to fix someone else! I'm finished with that! I was always the helping type but now it's only when others ask or others are reaching out in need. That's it!
I think we long for companionship because it's all we know. We only thin that we need someone to help us limp through life and this is not true. We have learned this behaviour because it's how our world worked for so long. I have several friends who have remained single their entire life. They do not feel lonely. In fact, they are far more happy than my married friends. Why? They do not expect others to take care of them. They take full responsibility for their own happiness.
I don't really think that accepting is that we are here all by ourselves. We are here with others and they make our life complete. Accepting is taking responsibility for our own path, our own emotions, our own health and happiness. When we accept responsibility for our own happiness, others notice and want to be near. No one likes to be with Eeyore! Hehe
The point is, you have to believe in yourself. You have WORTH. Show people that you have this!
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Exactly! If we don't think we have worth, why would someone else??
31
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Oh man, MiMix, I am going to copy and paste this to the mods board. It is one of the best descriptions of ACCEPTANCE that I have seen yet.
Thank you, thank you, thank you! Absolutely right!
So true 31andcounting... if we don't think we have worth, then WHY SHOULD ANYONE ELSE??
Outstanding post. A great pre-Christmas/New Year message. WE HAVE WORTH!!
Hugs Stayed
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Wow MiMix you're a wise woman. It's true what you say, it's so true.
And what immense personal growth we may experience as LBSs, in potential.
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Yes! Really appreciate how well you've described acceptance, MIMIX. And I think I have finally, finally maybe gotten there. At least, today. ;D
TMT,
When I think of Acceptance, I don't necessarily think it is about agreeing with or accepting that it is okay. No. It is accepting that they have made choices and that they are their's alone. These choices affect me but are not necessarily a reflection of me. It is accepting that others can move at free will just as I can.
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I didn't mean to sound profound or anything, just my own deep thoughts. I'm so glad others agree with me.
I knew Acceptance when it began to happen. I recognized it when things that others did just didn't affect me any longer. I gues Ive dropped the rope...so to speak. It feels more like RELIEF than anything else. I trust that others will find their own way, and I trust that I will as well.
I think it's very easy for women (and perhaps some men too) to lose their identity. I think it comes with the nurturing, caregiver role that we play. There needs to be a fine balance with this. I guess I needed someone to push me to realize this. It is certainly a better use of my time when I simply focus on my own life, just as it is. JUST AS IT IS.
One step at a time. One foot in front of the other in our pursuit of the true meaning in of our life. It's a deeply personal walk towards wholeness. I want to be that person who just loves life exactly as it was meant to be.
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I'm with you Mimix
Hugs
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I think we long for companionship because it's all we know. We only thin that we need someone to help us limp through life and this is not true. We have learned this behaviour because it's how our world worked for so long. I have several friends who have remained single their entire life. They do not feel lonely. In fact, they are far more happy than my married friends. Why? They do not expect others to take care of them. They take full responsibility for their own happiness.
I don't really think that accepting is that we are here all by ourselves. We are here with others and they make our life complete. Accepting is taking responsibility for our own path, our own emotions, our own health and happiness. When we accept responsibility for our own happiness, others notice and want to be near. No one likes to be with Eeyore! Hehe
The point is, you have to believe in yourself. You have WORTH. Show people that you have this!
I agree with everything that you have said MiMix. With one adjustment. We long for companionship. It is more than having friends. It is an intimacy of day to day life. I do believe that we were created as not just social creatures, like cats and dogs, but designed to have a level of intimacy and familiarity that you do not really get with friends. Granted, I do not have a lot of good friends where I am and have no family.
I never wanted to fix him. I knew that I could not. I accepted that long ago. I accepted this as his path as well as my path long ago. What I am struggling with is someone who really knows me and someone that I know. Even in MLC he was predictable. Even when he was lying to me I knew that he would lie and could accept that as his "new normal." That does not mean that I liked it, only that fighting it was a waste of time and energy. I knew he would have to do this on his own.
I do not feel lonely because I do not have friends. I have many that I talk to on a day to day basis. I do not spend as much time with them as I might like because they have families and partners. I have my two boys and even they have school and friends. I miss that level of companionship. The adult, partnership and love that goes into an intimate relationship. If you go to church, people say God is all that you need. Still a different type of relationship. Not a physical presence.
Perhaps I am struggling more with this because I work from home and do not see the same people in an office everyday. I don't know. What I do know is that we were not created with the range of emotion that we have as humans to spend our lives surrounded by casual relationships. We were created for more. That does not mean dependence. That does not mean that we have to give ourselves up. Far from it. We were created for that journey as much as we were created for the journey that we spend single.
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Im new in this forum , and Im here because I believe Im in the last stage of my situation: acceptance. Picking the pieces is hard as hell. I have moments that I feel stronger and moments that I feel like Im in total deep coma. Sitting in the couch literally staring in the empty space.
Many people share their stories of how friends have been their anchors. Unfortunately for me, it has been a complete opposite. Friends can easily judge just because they feel "they know you". But they don't know how wonderful and great my relationship was. The only ones who can truly understand you, are the ones who are walking in your same shoes. Others can easily judge, like I have been " oh, can't u just get it? he doesn't want to be with you anymore", or giving me the "look" like Im a poor imbecile who doesn't want to accept the reality that he is gone. My so called "best friend" commented " what the @#$ are you still doing wanting him so bad? why don't you kick him to the curb and move on after the way he treated you? don't you have any respect for yourself?" . Now, this very same person who made this statement, days later contacting my MDLer to wish him happy birthday, and asking how everything is going with him . Not realizing that he is talking to a different EGO than the person he once knew. I felt backstabbed and as he was playing for two different teams. I literally terminated my friendship with this person and asked him to officially to stay out of my relationship and not to have any further contact with him. They never did in the past , even while we were together, so why now???. Furthermore , i have asked him for space as I need to reflect, think, cry, wallow in my misery, but I'm an introvert and I don't feel any better just to be with other people , or better , around other "bodies" . Im still in the "reflective" mode. I asked so many times for space but he ( my friend) lost patience with me because he said it was enough time that he "allowed me". From other people, I get the "look". Like i said above. The rolling of the eye and looking at me with such pity: " oh poor thing, she is not just "accepting it" that he is gone and is over". (which is not as we know if you are Stander like me). I absolutely hate and despise statements like "let him go", "let go", and the final phrase : "move on". If u don't want to see a beast coming out of me, don't u dare telling me those statements. When u love your souse and u know whats happening , u understand how those statements can irritate you and make you spit venom. How dare you telling me how Im supposed to feel inside! So, I have zero and completely luck of understanding. Zero compassion. People are tired of my "being introverted" .
Im so glad for you guys that u can rely on friends. In my case I came to the conclusion that at times it is better to detach completely from people who have become toxic in my life, trespassing the boundaries of a situation which is very delicate for all of us in our situation. So, my mom is my mom. My best friend, the only one who listens to me and actually prepares me mentally how to approach "it" the reunion when the time will come (AND IT WILL).
Im perfectly happy to be alone. Im choosing to be alone. I made the conclusion that in new friendships I will form in my future, i don't have to tell everything about my life and it is ok to have "my secrets" between myself and my heart. People at work are constantly in my face. They can detect that something is off about me and they keep asking me about my private life. Keep asking personal questions that i cannot even answer myself. I know my story is not over but i have to get through this bumpy ride to Hell. But how do you answer , kindly to someone who keep asking about your business at work? it is not over, but yet we are indeed in an holding pattern. What do you say? I m a very private person and feel extremely uncomfortable sharing my details of relationship at work . I usually like to keep the two separate, in good times and in the bad times.
However, in this acceptance period, Im better off to be alone with myself. His midlife crisis and forced me to look at myself and pick myself up again (still a working progress) , piece by piece and maturing in its own time without rushing it. I don't feel I need to answer to anyone about why i feel in a certain way. His own journey, has forced me to reassess my own journey too. Acceptance for me, is about keeping calm, cool and collected. Continuing doing the things that i still enjoy like hiking and working out and loving my pets. Im perfectly "happy" in my little world of acceptance . I pray a lot and in my own spirituality I see signs from the Universe that are unmistakable "answers" of courage and strength and the things I ASK. .
We don't need to force our MDLer to come back to us and they will do it in their "due" season. Same with us , or at least with me. Allow me to also find myself and i will bloom again in my DUE season. Why is it so hard for people to just let me be for now without getting pissy or nasty ??????
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Hi Holdingpattern, thanks for sharing your thoughts and feelings during this very difficult time...I dont feel alone in this. Everything you said is on point on how i feel and also the little support from those who i felt were genuine. Please feel free to im me when you wanna just talk about stuff and vent. Im in the same situation and agree with you totally....one can not just move on and stop loving ones spouse. Its a very hard thing to do and it will take time and super woman strength. Hugzz👯
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Thank you BlueBlitz, I did send you a private message. But I simply wanted to acknowledge you in this forum and so thankful to have some sort of support in this. One of the previous post I read in this thread as well is another beautiful one , that she put it exactly how i feel. Yes, God is indeed your companion...but it is not a physical presence. It is not the every day life of sharing life with someone. I dont need just a body hunging around me who actually becomes for me more of a burden. I miss the intimacy, the hugging, those unspoken things said between us without having to say a word, finishing each others sentences, coming back from work after a few days away ( i travel for living) and find him home preparing dinner for me and vice versa. Thats the life i miss. I don't need friends, don't need people to truly burden me and pressuring me to let it go and the rest of the blah blah blah that they don't get it. No matter how much you try to explain the Monster your spouse/boyfriend/Significant-other has become, they don't get it. THEY JUST DONT GET IT BECAUSE THEY HAVENT SEEN IT OR LIVED THROUGH IT. They don't know what is like that u had a life together and the next day, everything changes at the blink of an eye. Friends had told me..."oh i know, i understand"". No YOU DONT. I learned that this situation is something NOT to be shared with anyone anymore, not even the people that u think u trust. I regret it so much that i my moments of weakness and despair, I have opened up to people that I shouldn't have. Again, chosen loneliness doesn't mean that i will always be like this. I just need time as well to come to a full circle as well on my own time. However, Im deeply relived that I had the courage to "fire" people who turned to be so toxic in my life. I haven't realized any of this, until I came to my acceptance phase. I chose to end some friendship in a very calm state of mind, sure of my conviction, without venom or anger. Again, because i have accepted my situation and I don't want to feel like Im a victim in the eyes of other people. But yes, we are victims of Monsters right now. But I don't want to live like this...as i want to be a "victor" not a "victim". We got cought in a very unfair whirlwind of emotions and destruction , but people at my phase of acceptance have already learned a great deal about this condition. I don't want to be miserable, or hold grudges or being resentful. In my mind Im already preparing my work for his return. Yes, i do believe it. Never forget the "law of attraction". Just like you are what you eat, u steer your life in the direction of your thoughts. So Im very careful with what I convey to the Universe . As you can see, this is also a personal journey for me as well. Once the paths will reunite, I have a strong sense in my gutt that we will be better and stronger than before.
I actually feel so sorry for him. Im understanding so much that this is a psychological condition that he is bringing behind every since childhood and eventually it had to come out. So I pray for him and I find comfort in beginning my "forgiving" process in my mind and heart. So, please don't feel pressured by other people. Go at the speed that only your heart is guiding you . This time, is now all about you for real. Feel sorry for him and don't bottle up anger inside. I finally got over that part. Altough Im still fearful of my future as many things can happen in the way , I know that i cannot fight this battle which is too big for me. Please just be good to yourself and absolutely get rid of toxic people around you who only bring you down.
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Very well said, Holding!
I agree when someone says "just move on" or some other ridiculous statement I want to vomit too.
I really don't talk about this to anyone anymore. Just the lovely people on this site. ;D
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THANK YOU THUNDER, YOUR WORDS ARE SIMPLY BEAUTIFUL. XXXXXX
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RCR's advice about this subject is that you need to keep "moving forward", not "move on".
That took some real thinking about how to keep moving.
Standing is NOT STILL.
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Thank you Old Pilot, your words couldn't have expressed IT any better!! AMEN TO THAT.
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HP - I always quote Atticus Finch from to Kill a Mockingbird whenever anyone says phrases like that to me. I look them in the eye and say with a great big smile so that my tone remains upbeat but authentic "I'm sorry you feel that way about my situation. It's my choice and until you have walked around in my shoes and been in my skin you cannot possibly hope to understand what I am feeling, thinking or my reasons for doing. When you do, then you will be able to give me your well founded thoughts and comments."
That usually makes the point. Now I still have the same friends - they treat me with respect whether they disagree with me or not and now as H is slowly heading towards some form of basic reconnection - they are beginning to see that perhaps I was right to stand after all.
Friends will never truly know why we stand. Why should they? Everyone judges others from their own paradigms.
The one thing I have found is that I have learned how to UN judge people now. I step back and think - do I really know what is going on and if the answer is NO and it invariably is - I stop myself from judging.
That's why the gift of time is important whether you stand or not. This time is for us to grow as human beings.
I have always moved forward and never on...
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Hello SD,
I love that you are capable of answering like that. Unfortunately, i feel that I no longer need to explain myself to anyone. I stopped it altogether. I don't want to get into lengthy answers. But with a firm tone i say that all is well . It is a very general answer that it could mean many things. But then, i change subject or run away far. They can assume whatever they want, nowadays I no longer care what people really think. :'(
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nowadays I no longer care what people really think. :'(
Unfortunately, i feel that I no longer need to explain myself to anyone. I
Then why as you have posted on SD's thread are you so worried about your level of detachment and lack of empathy.
Not caring about what other people think about your M is fine. I don't - and that's why I can say what I say the way I say it. It matters little to me what other people think - what matters is how I show my response as that is what keeps people feeling that they haven't been rebuffed or touched on a raw nerve.
Why is it "unfortunate" that you no longer feel the need to explain yourself to anyone? Re-frame that - It's fortunate that I don't feel the need to explain myself to anyone and the subtext is much more upbeat and suggesting that you are comfortable with yourself irrespective of the situation.
If I am honest - I think you are still hurting quite badly. Yes you have accepted the situation and yes you have accepted the process but your hurt and self doubt is there. I am not saying for one instance that you shouldn't have those feelings at all. 3 years in I still feel the hurt from time to time but notice how I identify it as an object - for me to control rather than to be controlled by.
I think you have much to offer this forum and with a vanisher only 21 months or so ago, you have come a long way in a very short space of time. It's great that you don't need to explain yourself to anyone because it means that you are growing and that you will be able to help others get to that place rather than stick in victim mode.
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Thank you SD,
you are right about so many things. I guess at times I have days that Im stronger and then i hit a wall again.
U are right ....sometimes things could sound contradictory ....unfortunately u are right on point ....it is all about time - i guess- and keep on standing tall and moving forward the best way i kwow how. ;)
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I'm not sure what stage I am at the moment. I think I may be between stages. Transitioning from one to the other. I thought we were the perfect couple also. Same here with the shock from others. Especially with my straight arrow hubby. His mom is still in shock that her baby boy could do this. It's the opposite of his personality to be like he is now. He is so different. His brother and best friend wanted to do an intervention, hahaha. Luckily I was able to squash that. Ugh! Can you imagine?
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I am just catching up to this thread, and timely discussion. I went to my neighbors' house tonight to say a quick hello and the neighbor's sister was there. She is genuinely well meaning, but I would say she is very jaded on her views on men. (She picks very poorly). At any rate, I don't tell too many people about my situation, as we have seen that even the most well meaning people want to "rally around you" and tell you to move on, "you deserve better", and the list goes on. My neighbors have been very supportive and the wife and I were chatting when her sister came around the corner. She overheard a conversation about the OW (which again I don't go just letting loose about and I am genuinely an open book not caring what people know - up until now, I had very little I would hide if asked). Well then the rants began how all men cheat, etc I am better off without him. My neighbor tried to get her to shut up. All I could say was I did not believe all men cheat and this is new territory for him. I tried to change the subject. It wasn't until the neighbor's son came around the corner that the sister shut up realizing this was not something to discuss with the kids around.
MLC is so misunderstood and not an excuse we give to let our spouses get away with things, but any of us going through it know that it turns our spouses into someone that is a stranger to all that really know them. Their brains are hijacked and it isn't just bad behavior driving them. We sit and try to muddle through and if we choose to "stand" and the public finds out we open ourselves up to what feels like there must be something wrong with us, which does not help as our spouses are already doing a good job of making us feel that way.
I, like many others guard my information, yet I try to take a deep breath and just say this is not an easy situation and I do not want to publicly demonize my H, as he was a good father and husband up until now. Most people are respectful, but I have found other places, like this forum to vent about my H's MLC insanity where others will be more understanding.
I don't personally worry about what people think about me (or at least I care only about the ones that really matter) but I have become more guarded and I think that is more about protecting my kids, who are old enough to understand what is going on. They don't need to have their father demonized - they see his MLC antics all too clearly themselves, they don't need to have others point it out. I have surrounded myself with people who may not agree with my stand, but do not judge me or take sides. The ones who have made their opinions known, respect my desire to take the high road for my kids sake and I am not just standing still, pining away - I am moving forward.
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I don't personally worry about what people think about me (or at least I care only about the ones that really matter) but I have become more guarded and I think that is more about protecting my kids, who are old enough to understand what is going on. They don't need to have their father demonized - they see his MLC antics all too clearly themselves, they don't need to have others point it out. I have surrounded myself with people who may not agree with my stand, but do not judge me or take sides. The ones who have made their opinions known, respect my desire to take the high road for my kids sake and I am not just standing still, pining away - I am moving forward.
I was very fortunate as well MourningDove. I have a great family and our true friends, always felt my h's behavior was totally out of character, couldn't believe he was doing it, I know some of them would have preferred if I had "kicked his butt to the curb" but they respected my decision to STAND and even understood why I did. I think they also knew me well enough to know, that I would LET GO when I was good and ready to do so.
Don't worry about what stage you are at. You will go through them all "eventually"!
Hugs Stayed
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Stayed - I think I am discovering it does me little good to worry what stage I am at or even where my H is at most of the time, as just when I think I have pinpointed the stage, it changes. It is too exhausting to keep up with.
Some would think I am crazy to have any hope of reconciliation, and down the line I may change my mind and say that I have had enough. I am trying to focus on just stabilizing my kids lives as well as mine and moving forward. I realize that no matter what it is what needs to happen. If due to some miracle my H actually snaps out of it returning home if I am not strong enough is not healthy for either of us. If H doesn't return I need to be strong for myself and my kids. I keep trying to focus on that.
The outside world is full of people who are going to express their opinions. I often see the ones squawking the loudest aren't always the ones leading happy, fulfilled lives. The ones that seem happiest are mindful and have had their own struggles and have dealt with them with some sort of patience and grace along the way.
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If due to some miracle my H actually snaps out of it returning home if I am not strong enough is not healthy for either of us. If H doesn't return I need to be strong for myself and my kids. I keep trying to focus on that.
This is the truest statement ever made. Whatever the OUTCOME, you will need whatever strength, courage and growth, you can possibly acquire! If he returns, you will need to be very strong, for all of you. Him, your children and yourself. If he doesn't return, you still NEED to be strong and healthy, mentally, physically and emotionally, for your personal future well being and for your children's well being as well.
I love the way you are THINKING my dear. You are programming yourself to be a WINNER... no matter what the outcome. Your future is being determined MourningDove, just by your positive attitude. Well done.
Hugs Stayed
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I just got caught up on this thread. At first I tried to put myself in the appropriate state--pretty sure there is anger and depression for sure. But after reading all your insightful posts, I realize defining it is not nearly as important as trying my best to move forward and live life. Having a small child helps with that b/c I need to be a role model for him (since obviously the H cannot at this point). But in order to do that I need to first and foremost be happy an fulfilled myself. Now there is the challenge. Always thought I was before, but the strange thing is now that all that has happened I am realizing I was not as fulfilled as I once thought. Why should I stagnate? Why can't I accomplish even more?
As much as I want to live in a corner and cry myself to sleep on some days, I still can't help but think this IS a gift, as OP so wisely says. My marriage was nowhere near perfect. I had resentful feelings. I could be mean. And I wasn't satisfied in my own life. But I wasn't doing anything about it. Nope, I do want more. I want to be as happy and as fulfilled as I can possibly be. Maybe (and hopefully) that will be with my H. I can't bank on that right now. But I can bank on me.
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As much as I want to live in a corner and cry myself to sleep on some days, I still can't help but think this IS a gift, as OP so wisely says. My marriage was nowhere near perfect. I had resentful feelings. I could be mean. And I wasn't satisfied in my own life. But I wasn't doing anything about it. Nope, I do want more. I want to be as happy and as fulfilled as I can possibly be. Maybe (and hopefully) that will be with my H. I can't bank on that right now. But I can bank on me.
This is very well said KIT. I truly second that.
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As much as I want to live in a corner and cry myself to sleep on some days, I still can't help but think this IS a gift, as OP so wisely says. My marriage was nowhere near perfect. I had resentful feelings. I could be mean. And I wasn't satisfied in my own life. But I wasn't doing anything about it. Nope, I do want more. I want to be as happy and as fulfilled as I can possibly be. Maybe (and hopefully) that will be with my H. I can't bank on that right now. But I can bank on me.
This is very well said KIT. I truly second that.
Ditto!
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Attaching.... This has given me a number of things to think about. Love the discussion.
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New thread
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=8078.0