Midlife Crisis: Support for Left Behind Spouses
Archives => Archived Topics => Topic started by: OldPilot on November 10, 2016, 11:22:19 PM
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Last thread
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=8392.0
I'm just so sad! Sad that I actually know a man that I spent hours during my crisis and his, talking on face book chat. I cannot understand how he, the most gentle of men, could actually put a check mark next to that mans name. I could see him voting for a republican congressman, republican senate... republican whatever... but I cannot understand how my dear friend OP could put a check mark next to Donald Trumps name.
Sorry, I shouldn't make this so personal but of all the people I have met or know from this forum, OP is the very last person I would ever have expected to buy into a bunch of lies. Even if every word that man said was true, the fact that he treats WOMAN the way he does, should have been enough to make it impossible for the man I know, to actually VOTE FOR DONALD TRUMP.
I don't know of a single woman that has not been sexually violated at least once in their life. Now that does not mean actual penetration, but having a kiss with tongue thrust down your throat, against your will, is assault. Having someone put their hand up your skirt or on your breast, uninvited, unsolicited. That's assault.
In some ways the sexual assault is easier to take then the words. I remember trying to watch his rallies and he would come in there, and he would start talking, diarrhea of the mouth. He couldn't stay focused on his message because he was too busy responding to some of the WRONGS that he felt people were saying about him. He just couldn't stop defending himself and accusing others for saying these things about him. The lying media, the lies, lies, lies they were saying about him. Yet he got more free media time then any other candidate ever. He was calling they up, talking and talking. Then would accuse them of misinterpreting him. He would start people chanting... LOCK HER UP... in fact, towards the end of the voting around 2 am in the morning CNN went to his center and people were chanting LOCK HER UP... LOCK HER UP! And THEY WERE WINNING! What would they lock her up for, she has been found completely innocent of any crime. If it wasn't her, he was mocking somebody else. His voice would drone on and on... and the things he said, they were so hurtful, so crude... so rude... totally vulgar!
e
I wonder if your daughter has ever been sexually assaulted OP. Had a tongue thrust down her throat or worse. The chances are pretty likely, and you know the sad part, if you don't know and this has happened to her... then SHE DIDN'T TELL YOU! How sad is that? I never reported the guy that tried to rape me. Never. I just went home, threw up and NEVER gave any man unaccompanied a ride home, ever again. Yep, that was my solution. Sad eh?
I'm a newz junkie and I have not watched the news since the night of the election. The last news I heard was the Trump camp, chanting... LOCK HER UP...LOCK HER UP! I have resorted to reading my news, returned the old fashion way. Need my fix. I have read about the protests, I saw that Trump and Obama had lunch today and that Obama has graciously agreed to do everything he can to make the transition easier. I read this, I skimmed over the picture of that man sitting next to Obama. Obama looked so kindly, so dignified, so Barrack Obama.
What have you done America? What have you done?
Stayed
Sorry you feel this way and yes you should not make this personal.
I have not attacked YOU for your personal or political views even though I do not agree with them.
In fact I respect you for all you have done here and feel you are just as misinformed about the US election and candidates.
Almost the same amount of people voted for TRUMP as Clinton so YES there seems to be a
huge distrust of something.
If you read the last thread I said it before but it is worth repeating,
Please keep the personal attacks off this thread.
This is a great observation that I agree with
Evas,
I think you fail to see that what you said to OP about his wife leaving could easily be as offensive and hurtful to HIM as what Trump has said seems to be equally hurtful to you...
I'm gonna get blasted for this, but hey..its the truth...that is how a lot of guys talk in private. Sad, but brutally honest. But you know what...some woman are equally as bad, if not WORSE.
Note, I didn't say I like the guy or approve (he is a pig), but I think what is more important here is do you agree or disagree with his policy. You can't control what HE says or does (except in this case through your vote), but you can control what you say and do.
I have to say, I am really disappointed. We all talk about becoming "healed and healthy" which part of is RESPONDING not REACTING.
THIS is why I don't get into politics. I figured this political thread *might* have a chance, being as we are all supposed to be grown, civil adults, but to be honest, am surprised it has lasted THIS long.
-T
I think to be honest that we have all been played by the media
and TRUMP was correct when he calls them crooked.
He got elected by spending tremendously MUCH less than his OPPONENT.
He does not have any special interests that own him or control him.
He has denounced RUSSIAN intervention in our election.
OH and Stayed watch the NEWS there is still lots happening to be concerned about.
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Oh and I will add one more thing,
My GF = likely to be my next wife, respects me and agrees with me politically.
We both still love those people that voted for Clinton and do not hold that against them.
Please lets keep this civil.
Also STAYED FTR most former MILITARY people I know that are at least in my Academy class
also support TRUMP, along with hundreds of former admirals and generals.
So I hope you dont call them all the same things.
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I must say I have enjoyed the discussion on this thread.
1. It is fantastic to see people here taking an interest in something other than a depressive recounting of and singular focus on MLC. To me that is a reminder that the world keeps moving forward even though Mlc has struck our homes. Therefore, we must as well. And yes there are bigger things going on in the world than Mlc, more important things as well.
2. This thread has also shown clearly that we are a diverse yet intelligent group of individuals with our own thoughts and opinions. Some I agree with and some I don't.
3. The thread has also shown that there is an awful lot of work to be done still for getting messages to various groups of people. Each now might want to consider how to adjust the presentation of their message so others may be more receptive.
4. Part of that adjustment goes directly to a comment made by karmitsaghik concerning the Democratic party no longer being a party of the people to paraphrase. I too believe that. I'm a professor that holds 2 PhDs and a law degree. I am also the first generation of children born in this country in my family. My father holds a PhD in Mathematics and worked a second job at night first loading box cars by hand and then promoted as a machine operator in the factory. He is also a military veteran of 2 wars. I worked in factories full time from the time I was 17 until 30. As a professor it is easy to slip in to believing particular ideas and assuming others believe that way as well. Its the white ivory castle on the hill syndrome. Reality is not always so easy to swallow when it smacks us in the face. At that point a re evaluation of the message and its delivery is called for in my mind. This is an opportunity to do just that by many sides.
5. There are several important messages contained in these threads.
A. Americas decision have a huge impact on other countries, not just our own. Being a Super Power carries with it privileges and responsibilities to ourselves, our neighbors, and to the world.
B. Many Americans don't know or understand the functioning of our own government.
C. There is still a huge gap between men and women as to what is considered appropriate and respectful behavior. What are we modeling for our children and grandchildren?
D. Each person has a duty to participate in the governmental process one way or another. It is our duty as citizens not just of the US but all countries.
E. Withdrawing and ignoring, hiding our heads in the sand, being conflict avoidant is not productive. Sometimes it may work but other times you end up with a President you find truly offensive and in conflict with all you believe. If you've made no effort, you are simply making yourself a victim of other peoples whims and decisions. Those who put in effort. Don't complain if you chose not to make an effort. Do better next time.
F. Yes politics is often bloody and ugly. From the time of the First Continental Congress, in the US, the Founding Fathers screamed, fist fought, dueled, and wrote strongly worded articles and letters. Yes there were many personal attacks on each other as well. That was one of the things that Jefferson, Adams, Franklin and Hancock said was a great strength of the US. The ability to be able to fight for a position without risking censorship of the topic by an elite. That was the beginning of the right of Free Speech.
G. Patriotism is not just agreeing with anything and everything the government and its supporters say. It is not something to hide behind in an argument. It is being involved and giving back to your country. It is tough love as well, stating differences when you think your country is wrong, doing something below its high standards. Yesterday I was flaming mad about a post related to patriotism. Patriots can be both conservatives and liberals. Who is this person to perhaps suggest that I, the wife of a career Marine, legal advisor to a division of the military, translator and contact worker to the DOD, was not patriotic simply because we differed in political party? Then I screwed my head back on and actually read what was written and saw I was reacting not thinking. And I put down my poison key pad. She had a right to say or hint at what she said, even if I was reading in to it. That was my problem. Free speech is the right of all. Even if it hurts my feelings.
Lp
Great POST LP
I totally agree.
I am adding this link, written by a CBS reporter who finally may be starting to GET IT.
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/commentary-the-unbearable-smugness-of-the-press-presidential-election-2016/
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Why do we need these personal attacks on people ? In my view someone voting for someone or something that I might not have voted for is not a personal attack on me , it does not change who that person is or the history I have with them or the fact that I love/like them .
Callan
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I really am beginning to SEE, why we ended up in the situation we did. We are nothing but a bunch of passive aggressive idiot. We think everybody should respect every word out of every single persons mouth who speaks. All opinions are not equal and I think we all know that.
Those were not ATTACKS OP and it's sad that whenever anybody hears something they don't want to hear, they accuse others of ATTACKING THEM! There was not one single thing that ATTACKED you as a person. How sad?
If most of your ACADEMY graduates agree with Trump, then I am not at all surprised that America is in the mess they are. To not be able to see the person you elected as anything less, then a buffoon, then your thinking has truly become skewed.
How condescendingly obnoxious of you OP. So sweet and passive aggressive to try and sound above the fray and oh so charitable. Was that similar to "sorry you feel that way"? No wonder our MLCer's ground their teeth and snarled.
Nothing to gain... you are so naive !
Stayed
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Why do we need these personal attacks on people ? In my view someone voting for someone or something that I might not have voted for is not a personal attack on me , it does not change who that person is or the history I have with them or the fact that I love/like them .
As someone said, the personal is political. No this would not be true for many elections but this one, yes, it feels personal. If you hear the American right wing media ie. Trump's people, it's personal. Yes Callan it would change relationships for me.
Re: Military. The majority of the military votes right. In the States, Republican, here & UK, Conservative.
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Wow Stayed!
I won't say that I am surprised by your reaction to the US election....as I know you.... ;)
I have been attempting to digest and understand what occurred here in the US on Tuesday night.
Personally, I couldn't get myself to vote for either of the two major candidates. (I wrote in my choice for President). I am sure that there are or will be statistics on how many voters chose to leave the presidential vote unchecked. I live in California. One second after the polls closed, and prior to counting any ballots, California was awarded to the Democrats. My vote truly wouldn't have mattered, regardless. The commentator on the conservative radio talk show that I listen to on the way to work wrote in a vote for Harambe, the gorilla. There are (false) news reports that a large number of people did the same thing. A co-worker of mine, who had planned to vote for Mickey Mouse, changed her vote last minute to a vote for Trump. (She despises Clinton that much)!
Looking back, the Democrats shouldn't have put all their effort and backing behind a candidate that was so very much disliked and (believed to be) dishonest. I believe that just about any other Democrat (such as Bernie) would have won over Trump. (But that is just Monday morning quarterbacking). But, the Democrats had decided it was to be Clinton....and that is who they backed.
I spent much time talking about the election to others and, quite honestly, most people really couldn't stomach either candidate.
The results of the election (in my opinion) show that the American people are sick and tired of the status quo and career politicians. I don't think it had anything to do with Clinton's gender. I really don't. I also think that the people dislike the media and how very slanted it is. I switched back and forth between CNN and Fox on election night and the difference in what they said, showed, and predicted was astounding! This also shows that the media and pollsters have absolutely no idea....whatsoever.
I am amazed at the number of women that chose to vote for Trump. But, they did.
I have an ex Co-worker that was/is a huge Trump supporter. He's been posting pro-Trump stuff on FB all year....and it makes me annoyed that his candidate won. But, he did.
Is the world going to come to an end because we have a reality star as our President for the next four (4) years. I certainly don't think so....I certainly hope not. We always talk about the red tape in Washington and how difficult it is and how long it takes to get things accomplished. That is due to the balance of power (President, Senate, Congress). I know that they are all under Republican control now.....but many/most Republicans are conservative. I doubt that Trump's rash and ridiculous campaign promises will be supported. I do worry about the social issues and what the Supreme Court will look like after the next four (4) years.
Stayed....I can't understand how anyone could have voted for Trump. But many people did. I really can't understand how anyone could have voted for Clinton....but they did. One of the two was going to win. They were our only choices...which is just astounding.
That said. The election is over. It's done. Let's see what he does with it. Maybe he will surprise everyone...and actually act Presidential.....who knows? Hard to believe or fathom...but I guess we will see.
There are people here in the US who don't see Trump as a buffoon. Obviously. He was just elected President. To say that their thinking is skewed is really not a fair statement. The US was given two very poor choices.....I know...we chose those candidates, through our never ending election process. It was truly a personal decision on which choice was the least trusted..., least liked, ....least dishonest.
You are being more than a bit combative.....I believe this is due to your very strong feelings on the situation.
I feel a bit differently. I guess it is all part of acceptance. The tribe has spoken...(Yes, a reality show line fits perfectly here)...Clinton was voted off the island.
L
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I am sorry Stayed but to me some one saying that they can see why OP's wife left him is personal and uncalled for.
As to your huge generalization about us being a " bunch of passive aggressive idiots " and your views on "why we ended up in the situations we did " . I chose not to respect the words that you used but that does not mean I no longer respect you as a person .
Callan
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Why do we need these personal attacks on people ? In my view someone voting for someone or something that I might not have voted for is not a personal attack on me , it does not change who that person is or the history I have with them or the fact that I love/like them .
As someone said, the personal is political. No this would not be true for many elections but this one, yes, it feels personal. If you hear the American right wing media ie. Trump's people, it's personal. Yes Callan it would change relationships for me.
Re: Military. The majority of the military votes right. In the States, Republican, here & UK, Conservative.
I know that some people felt the same about the Brexit vote . There was the same anger and protests . My parents voted out and so did some of my friends but to me they are the still the same people even though I thoroughly disagree with their vote . As you say though politics is a very personal thing .
Callan
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Limited,
You have to understand, Hillary said for a long time she was not running for President, but the Democrats pushed her time and time again to run. She was the most qualified person we had.
Bernie was very popular but honestly the Republicans would have ate him for dinner because of how very liberal he is. No middle of the road with him. Hillary was known to reach across party lines when she was in the Senate and was very well liked by both parties.
We needed a candidate who could bring in some Republicans and Independents. Bernie, God love him, would never have gotten one Republican vote.
Anyway that was not what I came here to say.
I heard a very interesting conversation on the radio this morning.
Everyone seems to be shocked that so many voters came out for Trump, but they really didn't.
In states like Florida and Michigan, the turn out for Trump was about the same as what Mitt Romney.. and the Democrat won.
The Democrats had a very low turn out in these states, for what ever reason, Bernie, dislike for Hillary, the email mess or they were just over confident Hillary would win (she was ahead in most of these states by the polling numbers) so they were comfortable sitting home. But it was not because Trump had big turn outs, they just turned out and voted for the Republican like they always do. Nothing was abnormal about it.
I can only hope this was a wake up call for all voters, who ever you vote for your vote does matter!! Don't sit home, take a little bit of time to get out there and do your civic duty. OP I may not agree with who you voted for but I'm proud you did your civic duty.
This election could have turned so much different. Maybe these next 4 years will be..like we say here. consequences for your choices. ::)
Choose to vote next time.
The only thing I feel sad about is Hillary has spent her whole life working hard, as a public servant, towards this and in my opinion she should have won it.
So I do feel bad for her.
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The Democrats had a very low turn out in these states, for what ever reason, Bernie, dislike for Hillary, the email mess or they were just over confident Hillary would win (she was ahead in most of these states by the polling numbers) so they were comfortable sitting home. But it was not because Trump had big turn outs, they just turned out and voted for the Republican like they always do. Nothing was abnormal about it.
I can only hope this was a wake up call for all voters, who ever you vote for your vote does matter!! Don't sit home, take a little bit of time to get out there and do your civic duty. OP I may not agree with who you voted for but I'm proud you did your civic duty.
This election could have turned so much different. Maybe these next 4 years will be..like we say here. consequences for your choices. ::)
Choose to vote next time.
I believe this is truth,
the democrats have no one to blame but themselves.
They failed to show up and if a few of these protesters had voted in the right states they would have won.
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It's true, but not all of them. I know a lot of Democrats who were biting at the bit to, not only vote fro Hillary but to vote for the first woman candidate for President. We were excited. Everyone I know voted, including my family. Minnesota has always had one of highest turn outs in the country in every election, like 80%. I'm not sure about this year. I'd have to check.
To tell you the truth I'm P O'd at the Democrats, in general, this year! The turn out was dismal in many crucial states.
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And you wonder why your wife ran off?
Evas,
This and only this is what has my feathers ruffled. This was just mean and heartless. IN no way should you have ever brought this into the conversation. So, Trump is President, NOW WHAT. No amount of second guessing, b!tc#ing and complaining is going to do a damn thing to change that.
I think that the people out there protesting are making huge fools of themselves. You really want to do something about the new President because you don't agree with him and think that he's not qualified, me too. So, give me an example of how that's going to change.
I didn't pick him, I wouldn't have. But, he is my President because I am a proud American. I'm in a wait and see mode. And truthfully, I believe that there wont be many changes because the President has the garbage of all the Presidents before him to clean up. I don't think that there will be any real changes in my life time. He's just a man, not a magician don't believe he carry's a magic wand. My husband is a Trump supporter, I don't blast him for what he thinks and feels. He has a right to vote for whoever he wants. He told me how he feels and I told him how I feel, and it was over.
I'm done talking politics. The barn door is closed and the horse is out. BUT, I do stand behind what I said, you made this personal when you said ANYTHING about OP's wife. I can only hope that no one comes along and says the same to you.
FH
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I am sorry Stayed but to me some one saying that they can see why OP's wife left him is personal and uncalled for.
...
Callan
Just for the record, Stayed never said that.
My nickels worth, then I am back outta here:
Although Stayed is VERY passionate about her beliefs, I never actually saw her make a personal attack. Yes, she generalized Trump supporters calling them idiots [paraphrasing..not sure exactly what term she used], but IMHO that was a *generalization* on a specific group of people. A little rude, perhaps..but it is her opinion, and is entitled to as such-even OP agreed and applauded her for recognizing the right to free speech.
The comment I quoted above to me was a DIRECT PERSONAL attack.
Maybe a fine line between targeting a specific group of people vs singling out a specific individual, but to *ME* one was just a generalization, the other was a direct personal attack.
As passionate as Stayed is, I do not recall seeing any direct personal attacks from her post at all.
Again, just *my* opinion, and how things read *to me* when going over the replies.
-T
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Yes
Stayed Evas comments were personal. No maybe she should not have said anything about OP's wife.
But I understand why.
Last week when Clinton said that all women have experienced sexual harassment it brought it all home for me. You bet it's personal. Sexism is personal. Racism is personal.
edited for: my error
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Just to be clear: Stayed did NOT make that comment about OP's wife. Another poster did!
-T
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Attaching :)
I agree. it wasn't Stayed who said that.
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No, Stayed didn't say it. I did. And I stand firm: if you believe it's ok to call women humiliating names, if you believe that that's ok, then I do understand if your spouse leaves you. That's verbal abuse.
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My son's second grade teachers told the class something very important, which is that many people who voted for Trump did so not because of the shocking and divisive things he said but because they were upset about the economy.
I believe many who vote for Trump feel disenfranchised. What they don't understand is that they are powerless, and until they admit this they will never locate the true source of their power, which is not voting for the powerful who promise to give them something "back" they never had, but in joining those who, like them, have little or no power. We have a lot to learn from the courage and bravery of all people who have had to work peaceably together to overcome discrimination. It is a lesson the younger generation is already learning.
I live in one of the most progressive cities in the United States. It is also one of the most educated. If you are afraid of what life looks like when diversity is valued and celebrated -- and everywhere -- you shouldn't be. It's amazing. It empowers everyone.
I highly encourage everyone to read "A People's History of the United States." Incredibly inspiring.
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Sorry my mistake about Stayed.
I believe many who vote for Trump feel disenfranchised. What they don't understand is that they are powerless, and until they admit this they will never locate the true source of their power
Victim mentality?
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No, Stayed didn't say it. I did. And I stand firm: if you believe it's ok to call women humiliating names, if you believe that that's ok, then I do understand if your spouse leaves you. That's verbal abuse.
OMG......................No where did he say that he believes it's OK to call women humiliating names, are you for real. I guess then it's OK to say that your husband cheated on you, with several women because of something that you said or did. Don't you see how stupid that is. RIDICULOUS. I didn't want to go there but, maybe you'll get it now.
FH
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I certainly hope that the new people don't bother with this subject. This is suppose to be a place where you can talk about how you feel and receive support and understanding. NOT, a place to be attacked. I glad that so many have strong opinions about our country and how it's run. But you know what they say about opinions...................Apparently there are some people on here with real anger issues, and are totally judgmental.
FH
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I get people are upset, yet to be honest I'm SCARED! Not so much of what Bigot Trump will do yet all those people who voted for him. Do they really WANT a wall? Ban Muslims? they really feel that way about women?
If they want to be upset about the economy they might want to look at the Bush Admin who did it. Obama Admin was the ones who were cleaning up the mess.
Let's not rewrite history.
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My son's second grade teachers told the class something very important, which is that many people who voted for Trump did so not because of the shocking and divisive things he said but because they were upset about the economy.
This is such and important insight, and so obvious about the areas where voting patterns really changed in the election. Bernie and Trump saw the SAME ISSUE, although they offered vastly different solutions to the problem.
My wife is from the Appalachian area of pa...lots of blue color voters there who voted for Obama and low income voters voting democratic their entire life. Not this time -- The only folks who voted for her in my wife's family was a young single women working at a university. Coal country was recently economically devastated by new power clean air standards. Any manufacturing they had over the last twenty years have long since left. The only viable economic option remaining is cross country truck driving. While that used to be a hard life, but a financially rewarding one, there came a massive new wave of drivers willing to live in their rigs quite literally and ship their paycheck back home. Mileage rates dropped, independent operators got wiped out, and consolidated companies pay half of what they used to.
My parents are from the agricultural area of the state. There, they talk of all the disappearing career paths for any child unable to take the college route. Many of their friends and family members had long standing family businesses that their kids were raised to take over -- skilled trades like framing, roofing, dry walling, brick laying, meat packing, concrete masonry... the list goes on and on.. trades than have all seen wages steeply decline due to either globalization forces or open borders policies. My father is a UAW retiree. The union gave him a great job and great benefits. But he watched his company, once an employer of 1,000s in my hometown, once a top Brand symbolizing American toughness, whittled away to a plant that runs on less than 300 employees. These are strongly religious people who initially told me Trump was so repugnant they would never vote for him, but by the time the election came, they couldn't wait to pull that lever.
In my opinion, much of those jobs are gone forever. I doubt very much Trump can do anything to change that course, but these people were desperate to find someone who would tell them it could be done. For all the negative things Trump said and did, he sold these people Hope and Change. Its a formula that always seems to work in politics.
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If they want to be upset about the economy they might want to look at the Bush Admin who did it. Obama Admin was the ones who were cleaning up the mess.
Let's not rewrite history.
Personal Opinion: I don't think it was Bush's fault. Or Clinton's fault. Or Reagan's Fault. Or Carter's fault.
Personally I think the start of our economic mess started back in the 70's with Richard Nixon, possibly even much further back than that:
http://www.businessinsider.com/history-of-us-gold-standard-2015-12
No, I'm not one of those "invest in GOLD" nuts-but since there is a finite amount of gold available in the ground, it at least kept the dollar somewhat grounded....think of a baloon tied to a rock. We lifted the standard, and now nothing tangible backs our dollar at all, removing the restraint for the government to freely print as many as they wish. They effectively cut the string from the balloon.
-T
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I get people are upset, yet to be honest I'm SCARED! Not so much of what Bigot Trump will do yet all those people who voted for him. Do they really WANT a wall? Ban Muslims? they really feel that way about women?
Do you really think we are going to get a wall? Ban Muslims?
I don't.
And to set the record straight I don't feel that way about women either, tbh I dont think that Donald Trump does either.
He has a wife and a beautiful daughter, two daughters in laws that dont think that either.
He is a MASTER manipulator, AGREED!
I will agree with this video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fqYd6gh2r0Q
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And to set the record straight I don't feel that way about women either
How many pages did it take you to come forward and say that? I didn't think you did OP. You're white and you're a man, you were simply not personally offended. Good for you. Not everyone has the same privilege. But would it have been ok for a man to say those things to your daughter? Would you yourself be ok with your daughter being with a man who had those views of women? I didn't think so. And yet you gave him your vote...
Electing Trump makes us all looks like a bunch of clowns and scary times are ahead. You and others aligned yourself with someone who spewed racist remarks and hurled insults at women time and again. And that person is now, by the way, celebrated with a parade by the KKK.
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That's good for you OP, many disagree with you and take Trumps words on face value. Just saw an article that backs up Eva's words about a KKK parade
THESE types of things are what scares me>>>
The Ku Klux Klan says it will hold a Trump victory parade in North Carolina
http://www.latimes.com/nation/politics/trailguide/la-na-updates-trail-guide-kkk-trump-north-carolina-1478822255-htmlstory.html
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I agree with you Evas. No one should accept this type of statement from anyone and most especially people in power. It is disgraceful and a failure of the education system that people do not expect a humble apology and withdrawal from the race.
Baby boys show more of a range of emotion than baby girls. Men become warped in a culture than doesn't allow them to feel vulnerable, sensitive, beautiful, passionate, or connected to each other in an intimate and meaningful way. They lose a part of themselves. We lose a part of men.
The other day I was with some girlfriends having coffee. There was a group of stay-at-home dads with their baby boys and girls, all adorable. The dads looked stylish, healthy, handsome, and energetic; the entire group was multicultural. They were feeding the kids, talking, laughing. That's the world I want to live in.
We can all be so much more but when we don't have the role models and leadership we may not realize. Until we raise boys differently, nothing will ever change.
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OMG, OP, your white ;) ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D Well, you've been forgiving don't you feel better now. 8) ::)
Love ya Bro
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OOOOOHHHHHH!!
I am so glad this thread is continuing
in reply to Anjae on the previous thread
1trouble, we feel that way because that is how the leave framed things: we do not want EU citiens here. I read the British press on a daily basis, I am well aware how the whole business went down and how Leave won. If anything, I read European press far less than British and American one.
No Anjae this is not how the leave campaign framed things, this is how the remain campaign framed things and how the British press in favour of the remain framed things AND the European parliament framed things.....please provide me with some evidence for this statement and I will apologise.....because IMO this is the BIG problem Anjae you have been lead into your views by the PRESS and their view/intepretation of the leave campaign, it is skewed and it goes back to the points I made in prior posts.....
.the vast majority of people I know, the people who took part in subsequent post brexit phone in's....., the people who took part in the post brexit discussion programs that were NOT edited, were angry of how they were judged and portrayed........they were not against Europeans.........., they voted for all the points I raised in previous posts, the beauracracy, the uncontrollable numbers coming here, the way the original European trading platform had started to turn into a European Federal State...
But you will NEVER read this unbiased/balanced view because the press is PRO remain so they will paint the leavers as bigoted, uneducated uninformed and Euro 'haters' etc.....
The UK has and never lost its sovereignty, it has never lost its borders (it does not have Schengen). The whole we want our sovereignty and our borders back talk is just it, talk.....
Oh NO, Anjae you totally demean what for many British is the fundamental argument .....you are minimalizing what is the key facts and getting emotional over things which are not the main driver for the British people........see how you have been mislead by the media??????
Our Sovereignty WAS being eroded AND, its NOT just "Schengen" as you keep mentioning, this is only one part of it.........we were losing control of what we as a country could decide, our laws for example were being overruled AND Jean-claude was about to move to a European Army.....amongst other things....
I believe our parliament would have become like our Royal Family IMO and would have been puppets ...and its not just me, THESE were REAL fears for a lot of British people.........and I totally believe, if the vote had been for remain we would have sold our "British" souls..... to the unelected and REAL faceless rulers of the EU.
You may had not vote to keep out of a British Univeristy, but that is what is going to happen. And not just with me, with many. Same for business, many business are leaving the UK, planning to leave and those who were thinking of starting a business there no longer are.
Since Scotland wants to remain in the EU I am not certain how the whole thing is going to turn up.
I crossed England off my list after leave won, not before.
Anjea by your own admission YOU don't want to come here anymore, because you have believed the press (British or European)that's your choice....as for business REALLY!! are you telling me that businesses will vote with their emotions as you've done....really?!?!
As for Scotland, well Nicola Sturgeon is the Queen of divisive politics so we will see on that one....
To my knowldege, the UK is, and always was, opened to the rest of the world on its own terms.
Emmm!! actually NO!! The EU dictated the terms and we were not allowed to negotiate with any country outside of the EU....The EU negotiated on our behalf and to give you an example, the trading terms with Canada (I think) has ONLY just been concluded and took them SEVEN years to negotiate! UTTER madness
Cameron knew he was not going to get more than what the UK already had, which is a lot compared with many EU countries. Why would the UK be given even more special previleges?
EHMMM!!
1) we were about to vote on remaining or leaving!
2) there were fundamental problems the UK voters had made clear in our last election and which the EU knew
[Quote from: 1trouble on November 10, 2016, 05:00:02 AM]
At the moment in the area I live they cannot build enough homes, there is a big homeless problem,even though they are building on every time bit of land that comes available, it takes over two weeks to get an appointment at the doctors, it takes nearly an hour to drive somewhere which should only take 20 minutes, the trains aBrusselsre fit to bursting, the schools don't have places for the amount of pupils, everywhere is getting more and more crammed full, rents are going up and up, the price of properly too, its now impossible for most young people to ever be able to afford to buy their own home...............these are facts of life in the UK today
[/quote]
I know. I think people are aware. None of that has anything to do with the EU. Those are internaL issues of the UK. They may have more to do with a Tory goverment, or even previous not so good Labour ones. Other EU, or non EU or non European countries have similar problems. Those are for the governement of each country to solve.
EU bureaucrats will not be impacted by UK leaving, ordinary people, in the EU and in the UK will.
yes you have a valid point here and I do believe some of the problems we have with our housing and infrastructure is under investment by numerous UK governments....HOWEVER....we have also had unprecedented levels of immigration
In 1996 the UK population was 58.6 million rising to 60 million in 2006.
Since 2006 until the present day the UK population has risen to 65.1 million.
Whereas I take your point in previous government underinvestment, you cannot deny we are facing a HUGE increase in population as a small island and face real problems, on top of this, being part of the EU meant and means we do not know how many people could suddenly come here and when you cannot plan you are in a constant state of reaction......It is placing unprecedented stress on all public services in even reacting to demand and makes forward planning impossible.
Whereas other EU countries no doubt face this to some degree, the UK seems to be the place of choice for many because of our current buoyant economy.
The funny thing is that the reerendum is not legally binding.
Again this is debatable, yes technically referendums are not legally binding, however there are a whole raft of laws and constitutional things that could mean its just that a technicality.
However, given all politicians supposedly work for the people and believe in our polictical system, it would be absolute anarchy to ignore a referendum vote, even a close one.
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you have been lead into your views by the PRESS and their view/intepretation of the leave campaign
I think one thing Brexit and the US election have shown is that we have a huge information problem. It's become very difficult to determine whether what one is reading is true or slanted and I'm referring here to the supposedly reputable mass media outlets. Many articles seem more like press reports or editorials. "Facts" are reported without being substantiated. Allegations are reported as if they are facts because it's more sensational, meaning it draws more readers. Impartial journalism seems to have disappeared from many mass media outlets.
Add to that the Internet sites like FB that are loaded with misinformation which is quickly picked up by a large audience that seems to accept it as the truth because it was written on a clever meme. I couldn't tell you how many people I've observed who were outraged because of something that was written on a meme that wasn't even true.
I'm not a fan of Donald Trump's and when the posts were flying about his sexist remarks I was going to add something I've seen repeated over and over, that Trump said he would sleep with his daughter if he weren't her father, because to me this seemed totally disturbed. I decided to post a link to the source of this statement but the problem I ran into is that I couldn't find one. I was unable to find anything to substantiate this.
What I found is that it seems the headlines about him wanting to sleep with his daughter are based on an interview with him and his daughter on The View talk show. The women on the View asked Trump what he would do if his daughter's picture showed up on the cover of Playboy magazine. I haven't seen anyone suggest that question was highly inappropriate but I think he should have stood up then and said this interview is over. Instead, he tried to downplay it which lead the women to escalate it by asking what he would do if nude pictures of her showed up inside the magazine. WTH is wrong with these women that they would ask a father questions like these on national TV with his daughter sitting beside him?
I thought his first response was good. He said he didn't think his daughter would do that but then he added that his daughter does have a very nice figure and then came the damaging statement, "I've said that if Ivanka weren't my daughter, perhaps I would be dating her" and everyone laughed. Afterwards, he asked several times "Isn't that terrible?" It didn't seem like anyone on the show took what he said seriously, yet I found headlines that turned this exchange into "Donald Trump says he would sleep with his daughter", "Donald Trump wants to bang his daughter", "Donald Trump wants sex with his daughter", "Donald Trump obsessed with daughter's body", and a few others that are too vulgar to repeat.
Another thing I found while researching this were headlines related to an interview on the Howard Stern show. On the show Stern said about Trump's daughter "Can I say this? A piece of a**." Trump should have told him not to talk like that about his daughter but he didn't, resulting in headlines like "Donald Trump lets Howard Stern call Ivanka 'A piece of ...' ", "Donald Trump to Howard Stern: It's ok to call my daughter a 'piece of a**'!", and "Trump called daughter Ivanka 'a piece of a' in mysogynistic 'banter' with Howard Stern".
What I saw over and over was Trump being baited by so-called "interviewers" into making or agreeing with embarrassing statements which were then misinterpreted or twisted into being far more than what they really were. Something happened that I never expected. As a father I felt sorry for Trump. By the time I was done not only didn't I post about this but I felt sick to my stomach because many of these sensationalized headlines were reported on what I would have considered reputable sources like CNN, USA Today, and CBS News. I was dismayed and disgusted because I was left wondering if there was any truth to any of the stuff I thought I knew about either candidate. I know enough not to believe anything on FB but I would hope that traditional news outlets would still practice journalistic impartiality.
I feel sorry for anyone who runs for public office and subjects themselves to running the gauntlet of today's news media.
Journalistic Impartiality
http://www.mediahelpingmedia.org/training-resources/editorial-ethics/238-impartiality-in-journalism (http://www.mediahelpingmedia.org/training-resources/editorial-ethics/238-impartiality-in-journalism)
The View interview
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DP7yf8-Lk80&list=RDdiMp241gAcw&index=2 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DP7yf8-Lk80&list=RDdiMp241gAcw&index=2)
Howard Stern interview
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hbZEnOrvUlM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hbZEnOrvUlM)
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1trouble, first you say I was missinformed because I was reading the European press. When I said I mostly read the British and Amreican press, you changed your tune and now it is the Britsh press who has been misleading people about the reasons for Leave.
The biggest selling British papers, as well as Murdoch media, were pro Leave, The Guardian was por Remain. There was a gigantic Leave campaign on the British press. Farage, Johnson and Gove ãll were in for Leave. And they were quite vocal about the reasons.
You are entitled to your views, but in the end, the vote was against the EU people.
The UK is allowed to control who goes into the UK. EU citizes egally allowed to go to the UK , just like UK citizens are legally allowed to come to the EU. But all EU citizens are that, citizens, not immigrants.
The uncontrolable numbers from where? The EU? If from outside the EU that is a matter of the UK, not the EU. And yet, it was a EU country that has been helding people from entering the UK, France. They were helding thousands of people in Calais because those people were not allowed to move into the UK.
I am not emotional at all. It is a fact the UK had never lost its sovereignty or its borders. Your sovereignty was not being eroded. The UK has special previleges within the EU. The UK was always treated differently and allowed things other EU countries were not.
Business are already leaving the UK. There have no interest to remain in a country that will not be on the EU, the single market. Ireland is getting several of the busness. So are Germany, Portugal and others.
It is not a question of fear, it is a fact that with the UK outside of the EU there is no advantage for me, or any EU citizen, to go to England. Why is it so hard for you to understand that Leave made England an uninteresting place for EU people? It is a pragmatic thing.
The EU does not dictate the terms the UK was allowed to negociated with countries outside the UK. A few examples, the UK leads the Commonwealth (the head of the Commonwealth is the Queen/King of Englad). It includes 52 countries, among them Canada, Australia, South Africa, India, New Zealand, Nigeria, Pakistan. The EU has no inteeference on Commonwealth treaties, deals, arrangements and issues. The Queen/King of England is the head of state of several contries, including Australia, Canada, New Zealand. The EU does not interfere in the relationships of the UK with the countries ruled by her majesty. The UK had a special relationship with the US, the EU does not interfere in that relationship. Portugal has the PALOP - Países Africanos de Língua Oficial Portuguesa (Portuguese Speaking African Countries) and a special relationship at all levels with them. The EU does not interfere in that. Same with our Relationship with Brazik. France has special agreements with their former colonies.
So, the issue comes down to immigrantion, essencially for EU, even if EU citizens are not immigrants.
What are you guys going to do about people that comes from Commonwealth countries? Leaving the EU is not going to solve that issue. The UK has deals with those countries that will remain in place after you leave the EU. Are you also going to vote to leave the Commonwealth?
Unprecedented levels of immigration from where?
Germany and Sweden have it much worst. There is no France to held people getting there. And, by the way, Sweden put its borders back (this does not affect EU citizens). On their own. The Eu did not stop them from doing it. France has its borders on since the attacks. They declared state of emergency on their own.
You are aware that the UK faced major issues, from health to economic in the 1950's, 1960's, 1970's and 1980's, aren't you? Huge ones. Poverty, instability, terrorism (IRA), lack of jobs, etc. And the reason was not immigration. Nor is immigration the reason for the current real problems of the UK. Several things are, including money being used to rescue banks. But, it is so easy to blame immigration for a country's troubles.
Nicola is the first minister of Scotland. Scotland voted Remain. London and its mayor wants to try to have a special deal to remain in the EU. London has no interest in leaving the EU.
The UK leaving the EU has to do with the press, but for all the wrong reasons. They reproduced inflammatory things that were not, and are not based in fact. They were on a blame the EU and immigration crusade. Like the infamous 350 million pounds a week to the eu bus. The Those behind it, claimed that the UK sends (and this send is important because the amount send it not really sent, is in part used in the UK) 350 million pounds a week to the Eu and that if Leave won they would apply that amount on the National Health Service.
The UK does not send 350 million pounds a week to the EU. Margaret Tatcher negociated a rebate in 1984 that allows the UK to contribute less than 1% of their annual GDP, unlike other countries. The morning after the referendum Farage was asked on televisoon if he could if he could guarantee that the money would be put on the National Health Service. He said he could not. Of course he cannot. Those 350 million pounds a week do not exist. And even if they did, I doubt they would go to The National Health Service.
But, in the end, article 50 may never go ahead. Or it may go, but stop. UK lawyers are already finding ways of backtracking in case of need after the article has been called.
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Just to be clear: Stayed did NOT make that comment about OP's wife. Another poster did!
-T
Just to to be clear I never said that Stayed said that , I said someone . Stayed said that no one had made any personal attacks on OP I was pointing out that in my view someone had .
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you have been lead into your views by the PRESS and their view/intepretation of the leave campaign
I think one thing Brexit and the US election have shown is that we have a huge information problem. It's become very difficult to determine whether what one is reading is true or slanted and I'm referring here to the supposedly reputable mass media outlets. Many articles seem more like press reports or editorials. "Facts" are reported without being substantiated. Allegations are reported as if they are facts because it's more sensational, meaning it draws more readers. Impartial journalism seems to have disappeared from many mass media outlets.
Add to that the Internet sites like FB that are loaded with misinformation which is quickly picked up by a large audience that seems to accept it as the truth because it was written on a clever meme. I couldn't tell you how many people I've observed who were outraged because of something that was written on a meme that wasn't even true.
I'm not a fan of Donald Trump's and when the posts were flying about his sexist remarks I was going to add something I've seen repeated over and over, that Trump said he would sleep with his daughter if he weren't her father, because to me this seemed totally disturbed. I decided to post a link to the source of this statement but the problem I ran into is that I couldn't find one. I was unable to find anything to substantiate this.
What I found is that it seems the headlines about him wanting to sleep with his daughter are based on an interview with him and his daughter on The View talk show. The women on the View asked Trump what he would do if his daughter's picture showed up on the cover of Playboy magazine. I haven't seen anyone suggest that question was highly inappropriate but I think he should have stood up then and said this interview is over. Instead, he tried to downplay it which lead the women to escalate it by asking what he would do if nude pictures of her showed up inside the magazine. WTH is wrong with these women that they would ask a father questions like these on national TV with his daughter sitting beside him?
I thought his first response was good. He said he didn't think his daughter would do that but then he added that his daughter does have a very nice figure and then came the damaging statement, "I've said that if Ivanka weren't my daughter, perhaps I would be dating her" and everyone laughed. Afterwards, he asked several times "Isn't that terrible?" It didn't seem like anyone on the show took what he said seriously, yet I found headlines that turned this exchange into "Donald Trump says he would sleep with his daughter", "Donald Trump wants to bang his daughter", "Donald Trump wants sex with his daughter", "Donald Trump obsessed with daughter's body", and a few others that are too vulgar to repeat.
Another thing I found while researching this were headlines related to an interview on the Howard Stern show. On the show Stern said about Trump's daughter "Can I say this? A piece of a**." Trump should have told him not to talk like that about his daughter but he didn't, resulting in headlines like "Donald Trump lets Howard Stern call Ivanka 'A piece of ...' ", "Donald Trump to Howard Stern: It's ok to call my daughter a 'piece of a**'!", and "Trump called daughter Ivanka 'a piece of a' in mysogynistic 'banter' with Howard Stern".
What I saw over and over was Trump being baited by so-called "interviewers" into making or agreeing with embarrassing statements which were then misinterpreted or twisted into being far more than what they really were. Something happened that I never expected. As a father I felt sorry for Trump. By the time I was done not only didn't I post about this but I felt sick to my stomach because many of these sensationalized headlines were reported on what I would have considered reputable sources like CNN, USA Today, and CBS News. I was dismayed and disgusted because I was left wondering if there was any truth to any of the stuff I thought I knew about either candidate. I know enough not to believe anything on FB but I would hope that traditional news outlets would still practice journalistic impartiality.
I feel sorry for anyone who runs for public office and subjects themselves to running the gauntlet of today's news media.
Journalistic Impartiality
http://www.mediahelpingmedia.org/training-resources/editorial-ethics/238-impartiality-in-journalism (http://www.mediahelpingmedia.org/training-resources/editorial-ethics/238-impartiality-in-journalism)
The View interview
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DP7yf8-Lk80&list=RDdiMp241gAcw&index=2 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DP7yf8-Lk80&list=RDdiMp241gAcw&index=2)
Howard Stern interview
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hbZEnOrvUlM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hbZEnOrvUlM)
Great Post, and echoes my thoughts exactly.
I am sorry that Stayed and Evas think I am part of the basket of deplorables,
I am sorry that our young people are out rioting on the streets.
I agree that Trump, Hillary, and the Media used us to all try to get what they wanted.
Trump played the best game and won the election,
just like the Cubs won the World series.
Cleveland may have scored more runs but the Cubs won more games.
I think that all of the above are highly flawed people.
I still believe in our country and think that we will all be fine.
Just like in MLC we need to figure out how to move forward.
Their is no looking backwards and saying what if.
I find it very interesting that two of our RECONCILED woman are the most upset on this thread.
Did they learn nothing from being here?
Are they VICTIMS, spewing hate?
I will say that I still love them although I hate their behavior.
I am glad we are able to write what we feel here and be in a protected space.
I cant help wonder if there is more to it than what is coming out on this thread?
I dont know if Trump will figure this out or not,
he will need to LEAD us forward,
I believe the government will do that even if people are sitting and protesting and being dragged along.
All I can do is my part which is quite small.
YUP I am an elderly white man who has been part of the silent majority.
Maybe I will go back to be part of the silent group or maybe not.
However I will keep moving forward.
I hope everyone else does too.
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Anjae its clear you have your views on what the British people think which is based on what you have read....I am telling you as a British citizen and having spoken to many many others what my views are and those who I have spoken to.........but you have chosen to ignore what my reasons were and have brought it all down to immigration.......I mentioned the British Press, because YOU specifically said you read more Britihs papers than European ones!!
Anyway to make it very very clear most (not ALL) but most British people who I spoke to and who I have listened too on telephone discussion shows, televised discussion shows, on discussion boards like this on the subject etc......
1)are NOT anti European, we are Anti European Federal state.....
2) We are NOT Anti immigration we NEED immigration but the numbers, somehow have to be controlled, we are unable to control it at all ATM we welcome all immigration for the skills we require
3) The leave campaigns biggest misleading quote was the £350,000,000 but I find it utterly amazing how everyone has been duped into quoting that one like robots whilst conveniently ignoring the ludicrious FEARFUL lies the remain campaign put out about higher taxes, lower pensions, job losses, decreased security protection, how our manufacturing jobs were reliant on Europe, 3million jobs will be lost.......I could go on....
As for Nicola Sturgeon, her politics IMO are divisive she wants to take Scotland out of the UK she always has and now sees the Brexit vote as another chance to have a referendum, she is ignoring the half of Scotland who last time, didn't want to leave the UK and also ignoring nearly half of Scottish people who voted to leave the EU, because she is only interested in those who want the same as her...................hopefully, as last time, the Scottish people will see through her personal agenda and vote to remain in the UK because I really cannot see how they will survive on their own as the oil revenue is falling every year and they rely on subsidies from England to fund their universities and health care.......that's not British arrogance, its my view and I have a fondness for the Scottish people and love being part of the UK...........as I would have loved being part of the EU had it not started getting so power crazy.
What companies are leaving the UK I haven't heard of any ?
How did leave make England an uninteresting place? I cannot see its hurt our tourism, infact as the exchange rate has dipped tourism has boomed!
I will never be able to convince you the Brexit vote was never against the people of Europe but the organisation which is sad but somewhere this myth has risen...............because I do not know one person who hated being part of Europe and who hates Europeans...........but anyway....as I said for some reason you have decided what you have decided and got the message you have probably from the daily mail or express IDK.....
And if article 50 is stopped there will be anarchy IMO because we as a country voted to leave, if people in power, with money and influence over ride that decision then our whole political system will collapse and that's why Article 50 will be triggered.........and once it is I think it will be the beginning and end of the European Federal state and what will be borne from it will be the start of the European Trading group.........IMHO
It is my personal opinion the world of politics is changing and it can only be a good thing, the media moguls, spin doctors, political marketing people, pollsters are all losing their power and I love it.................the people have had enough and they are voting to say so................I think as time goes on we will look at this period of change to see it as a very positive move...
The days of apathy are over, the days of being controlled by the faceless and those who wanted power for power sake are going......if they want power they will have to listen to the people..............and hopefully people will start to question the dubious reporting of elections by the newspapers as more and more people see through their propaganda and self serving agendas...
The thing that is similar in my view between the Brexit and American presidential elections campaigns is that campaigns based on 'fear' are lazy and simply do not work......................people (well most) see through them and it makes people go out and get their own facts and make their own decisions based on this information..... that again can only be a good thing
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The thing that is similar in my view between the Brexit and American presidential elections campaigns is that campaigns based on 'fear' are lazy and simply do not work......................people (well most) see through them and it makes people go out and get their own facts and make their own decisions based on this information..... that again can only be a good thing
But the people did not go and get the facts, not in the US and not in England. You believed the xenophobic slogans and ignored the facts, for example, the 'immigrant' problem in the UK is a policing problem--it is not legal immigrants--it is criminals supplying workers who arrive in the back of trucks and go to work for cheap wages--hired by British companies who don't want to pay the minimum wage. Of course the government has no appetite for increasing the police force and the police can't begin to keep up.
I'm old enough to remember England before the EU; I hope you never experience that standard of living, it wasn't fun.
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UK Financial Times online two days ago..
https://www.ft.com/content/0227e03a-a745-11e6-8b69-02899e8bd9d1
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URGGHHHH
I give up I really do.......
Look back on my posts...............what you have just said calamity is what they want people to believe.............
It is the rich who peddle this clap trap that all leavers are xenophobic /uneducated.................because its the rich who stand to gain the most from staying in Europe, the cheap labour you mention, the increased property prices, rents etc.....I have said all this before in my previous posts.............................
I have also mentioned facts not rhetoric..........do not insult me to say I don't know my facts because I do....
If you had read my previous posts you would see the increase in our population was one tiny part of my reason to vote leave...............however as you have chosen to just highlight the immigration thing again........let me answer the points you have made and then I am going to leave this once and for all..
The UK populating has increased by 5 million people in the last ten years........to suggest this is solely down to people trafficking and not policing our borders is ridiculous.....
Its a fact that our country is open to anyone from Europe.................its a fact the UK economy is buoyant, its a fact that people would want to come here to look for work, if the other European countries are not doing so well..............
BUT its also a fact that if large numbers come here and we have no control or idea how many are coming or when etc. then we cannot plan for the infrastructure etc.....(ALL points I have made before)
Its also a fact that of our population continued to rise at these unprecedented levels then it will start to have a very negative effect on the quality of schools, housing, health care and other social economic factors...which I can see (from living near London) is starting to already happen.....
It is also a fact, if you look back in history that if there is huge surges of immigration then it can cause unrest and resentments ......infact if you look at Germany now who have taken in a very large number of immigrants in a small timeframe, you can see it is starting to cause unrest and will only lead to more far right factions.....(sadly( unless there is some serious work done to assist in the integration.
If you know how many people are coming to your country, if you can control the levels you can plan better, you can provide better services and you can ensure people (the indigenous population and the immigrant population) will come together and work together more harmoniously....BUT we cant and when this idea of free movement was first thought of, it was when the European Union consisted of fewer countries and countries who were similar in GDP and over all wealth......and before the recession
And anyway....My vote to leave was not based on immigration, as I have said (quite a few times ACTUALLY) it was a very small part of why I voted to leave if you had bothered to read my previous posts!
BUT because I "dare" to say my country is getting too crowded, because I dare to say I voted to leave, yet again the 'immigration' points are the one's that are pounced on...........so I am now xenophobic and do not know my own mind, along with the other 17.4 million like me.......what rot !!!
And I do remember life before the EU......it was not the Victorian era and the EU did not radically change our standard of living as your comment suggests.....It was a trading platform not a fairy godmother....I come from working class parents that worked very hard, I do not remember my life becoming suddenly so much better because of the EU.......I don't remember my mum and dad blessing the day we joined...........far from it
Right that's me done......................................
I am an optimist and I believe change can be a good thing......... xx
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I am an optimist and I believe change can be a good thing......... xx
I have no idea about any of this - yet there is a constant theme that is playing out between the US and UK and maybe the rest of the world.
Immigration, press, change.
Watch this video about the US press.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k7Q0mr7LUOU
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Nice Rodney King impersonation Limitless. Somehow you manage to once again, post a non offensive comment, explaining and rationalizing why you didn't do your homework on your next PRESIDENT. Instead, like 46% of the population, you stood above the FRAY and let others do the dirty work. As much as I disagree with what OP and his wife to be have DONE... at least they stand up and take ownership of their actions. Instead, you just couldn't be bothered, so you simply wrote in a suggestion. Nice.
As one of the few women managers in the company you work for, who you have often told me is one of the most sexist companies ever, you couldn't bring yourself to stand up and actually vote for a woman. How sad is that? Somehow, she didn't live up to your view of what a woman president should be, I guess.
Like so many, you chose to believe that there MUST be something, or all these accusations would not be continuously coming out about her. Never once did you think to yourself... "that's odd, how come ONLY the democrats emails are being leaked"? or how about, "wow, how could she have done all these things and not be in jail"? The truth is LIMITLESS, and all you other skeptics... she couldn't have done all the things it was INSINUATED, she had done. Can you imagine if your reputation in your firm that you have spent the last 30+ years building, was DESTROY by insinuation?
Of course, that wouldn't happen to you would it, besides, as someone running for president, she SHOULD have been more careful. Sadly, a man, a white man no matter how orange it is, could stand in front of his adoring fans and just throw out accusations and insinuations willy nilly. No matter how much the press reported, flashed back, replayed live video of his words and comments, his lies and disgusting insinuations, it was decided that the press was deliberately working against him.
The press is guilty of one thing for sure. The press went for SENSATIONALIZATION. Sensational sells. I read where CNN and Fox's RATINGS had never been higher. Their viewership doubled. Yup Trumps bull$hit kept people watching. The press is guilty of encouraging it. The press could have dispelled all the myths and UNTRUTHS being said about Hilary in a couple of good documentaries... BUT by encouraging this DEBAUCLE, their viewership increased.
You were all well played. Now, the media will enjoy showing you how much Trumps words have encouraged brave WHITE men and their adorable and deplorable PUSSIES, (pardon me, but white women who are proud to be deplorable adorables or vise versa, apparently they don't mind being called PUSSIES, their votes indicated that), to grab women by the privates, whenever they please. Beat up gays. Taunt blacks. Say whatever they want to a woman, anybody of colour and all faiths, accept the saintly Christians, the one and only true faith.
As for the Brexit thing, you did the same thing, only of course you were not nearly as UP FRONT ABOUT IT. Kind of like your children, who politely interrupt whenever they want your attention, by grabbing your arm and politely shouting... EXCUSE ME M'AM, excuse me! Ah yes, politely said, just as rude and just as wrong.
Sorry Limitless, but how long are you going to "bottle up" your anger and hostility? Wouldn't want to OFFEND anybody would we?
A plague has been released into our midst. Somehow I doubt you will find your life IMPROVED OP, unless you are prepared to WORK like those PESKY immigrants. Ah wait, you shouldn't have to, should you... you are white!
Stayed
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Okay 1trouble, I'll give you Brexit. I'm probably just upset that my birth certificate will no longer give me access to the continent--cheap, good wine? And trade deals have not benefited the working class so far--the opposite in fact. The one good point Trump had was attacking NAFTA; I doubt that will translate into any action.
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The land I live in and grew up in, is a land of people who look from afar at the rest of the world.
We are all immigrants. Brave humans who first came in boats, hundreds of years ago.
Then more brave people in larger boats, over the past 150 years. Ships back and forth to the UK were known as 'Home Boats' as recently as 40 years ago, to a significant proportion of the population.
People now of course arrive by plane.
We look outwards. We always have. It tends to come with the territory of being a small nation at the bottom of the planet. We are grateful that we live in the land that we do. It's far from perfect but we were the first country in the world to give women the vote, and we now have had two female Prime Ministers.
Government financial settlements have been a significant feature of our race relations and politics since 1975, seeking redress for breaches by the Crown to the indigenous people. A contentious area, but one that has not been brushed under the carpet.
Experiencing what I have experienced in recent years, it saddened me to have to navigate for the first time misogynistic court systems. It's apparently acceptable in this country for women to be financially wrung out and left 'holding the baby' while the men can continue to prosper and walk away. Women can do anything, after all.
Situations trigger me that simply did not affect me before. The misogyny of certain parts of an online forum was too much some years ago. The locker room talk with the excuse of 'this is how men talk'. No it's not. I have three sons. Your country has proven it's far more overtly misogynistic than mine.
The fact that a nation could vote in a leader such as Trump, speaks of the fact that many people simply have not experienced what we all have experienced as women. Most people seem to have no empathy for other's experiences unless they have experienced it and it affects them directly. The fact that many women chose to vote for him astounds me even more.
Re Brexit - As part of the commonwealth, our ties and loyalty to Britain were enormous. Our trade deals funded significant parts of our economy. The UK affiliation with the EU changed all that. As a country we were dismissed and the hurt from the apparent lack of loyalty lingered for many, especially the older generations who had fought for King and Country.
The younger generations know nothing of that and their kinship is with other nations. They believe we should become a Republic. The right of passage for every youngster, the great OE (overseas experience) is no longer a given. Our ability to live and work on a holiday visa in the UK also changed with the EU. So I hear you Calamity on losing those passport privileges.
I have the right to live in the UK due to a British born Grandfather, but my children do not have that right.
Immigrants from the UK continue to arrive here in droves. I'm happy about that - best sense of humour, ever. Plus immigrants from multiple asian and polynesian nations. This brings a unique and interesting blend of people but is causing our own housing crisis. We simply cannot keep up with the demand and the cost of living has risen exponentially.
Re the media - During my travels, it was a great shock to me to see how insular the US media was and possibly still is. As a land of many immigrants, it surprised me that international news was not given much of a platform. I can see how it would surprise many US citizens that the US elections affect the rest of the world, but they do. All actions have an equal and opposite reaction, and the ripples reach far and wide.
Our dollar dropped immediately when the Presidency was announced, and the financial markets reacted with instability too.
We all know that monopolies of any kind become corrupt. Global business controls the media and therefore Mass media outlets are no longer reputable.
'Six Mammoth Media Corporations Produce About 90 Percent Of The Media That Americans read, watch and listen to'. It is an illusion that you have choice.
Reporters without borders 2016 ranked the USA 41st on the World Press Freedom Index. The UK 38th.
This ranking is primarily due to the limited diversity in media ownership.
It reflects the degree of freedom that journalists, news organizations, and netizens enjoy in each country, and the efforts made by authorities to respect and ensure respect for this freedom. Reporters Without Borders is careful to note that the index only deals with press freedom and does not measure the quality of journalism nor does it look at human rights violations in general.[2]
https://rsf.org/en/ranking
From where I'm sitting and what I am observing - to choose to place a man who is capable of such overtly misogynistic and racist remarks is not one but multiple steps back to the dark ages.
The role of President is a complex one. Not least, this person represents your nation and should have the personality and capabilities to navigate the unique challenges that will be placed in his/her path.
Trump is now the US figurehead (a scary yet ludicrous figurehead) and he looks to many around the globe to be temperamentally unsound for the role.
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Stayed,
I voted for HC, but not because she was a woman, or more qualified or experienced than her opponent, but because Trump's rethoric is just outright impossible to digest with or without HC being his opponent.
Unlike you, I do not have a very good opinion of HC and her policies. I also think that one should not place her/his vote based on anatomy. I for one thing would be extremely offended if I would get a job, for example, based on my gender. I would prefer to get the job because I am the best qualified candidate. This woman card was played a lot in the Democratic primaries, where Madlenne Albright, and other HC surrogates were telling people that if you do not vote for HC, you are against women. It is wrong.
1. One cannot say that she is the to be a champion of middle class, working people while being paid $600.000 to deliver two lectures to the executives of Goldmann Sachs, the bank that was heavily implicated for its role in the financial crisis. As of today the exact content of these lectures are not disclosed. We should not rely on Assange to tell us what is going on with our politicians.
2. One cannot say that she is for fair and equitable settlement of Middle Eastern conflicts while the foundation that is headed by her husband accepts millions of dollars of donations from the most despotic and totalitarian regimes on this planet, ex. Saudi Arabia, which is the largest financier of ISIS and other terrorist groups.
3. One cannot precipitate Syrian conflict and then say that she is the best qualified person to solve it. Her foreign policies are the continuation of neo conservative agenda, whereas CIS engineers regime changes in foreign countries, engages in proxy wars, and calls it a democratic revolution, or fight for human rights. America and its allies should apologize to the people of Middle East and pay hefty restituion to the people of Iraq. That will be a responsible foreign policy, something that both JWB and Obama's administrations fail miserably at. And HC is part of that agenda. One cannot engage in bombing Lybia to oblivion and then tell people that we need more overt operations to unroot ISIS, which was created and strenghtened by the US illegal and immoral invasion to Iraq.
4. One cannot have the leadership of Democratic Party manipulate information and dislose otherwise confidential information in order to get leverage over opponent in primaries, and then play a woman card. If you want a nomination, then fight fair and square. People's issues with HC are not because she is a woman, and they try to beat her down, it is because she has lots of issues that compromise her trustworthiness and likability. She is not poor HC who is picked upon.
5. You cannot say that you are a candiate from Democratic party, while hardly accepting the premise of minimal living wage. It is not what her corporate financiers want.
Few years ago the Atlantic magazine published a ground breaking article, "Why women still can't have it all" the author of the article was Anne-Marie Slaughter, the outgoing Director of Policy under HC in State Department, very accomplished woman in her own right. The article was covering the difficulties for women who want to have a meaningful family live and a career, and explaining the falacies of some feministic ideals, that put too much pressure on women, without proper support system. HC was asked what she thought about the article, and her reply was that she saw whining in it and that there were lots of people who do it. Then she added that, of course having money helps. I was astonished to read that kind of reaction from the woman, who is heading a Government agency in the country where there is no mandatory maternity leave and 6 weeks old babies are raised in the daycare. So it told me that HC even though she is a woman she does not get a plight of women in this country.
HC lost not because people picked on her gender, or put her under higher scrutiny. She lost, because democratic party and its leadership lost touch with the people they were supposed to represent, calling them basket of deplorables, instead of engaging with them. For two years now we read that in Flint Michigan (a major battleground state, btw) the water is tainted with lead, which makes the kids sick and it affects the entire citiy, i.e. major disaster. How many times HC went there to shake hands with this people, to tell them what are her actions to solve the problem? Zero. Obama went there only once, and nothing has been done ever since. It is in the USA, not some developing country we are talking about.
One cannot win Presidential elections by trying to appeal to well-educated liberal elites, and belittling a considerable portion of your electorate. Time for mirror work in Democratic party. Luckily there are other smart, educated and capable women to be proud of, e.g. Elisabeth Warren, senator Tulsi, senator Davis, etc.
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Kikki, I agree with you. Most Trump supporters have more in common with women, Muslims, immigrants (legal or illegal), and LGBT community than they do with Trump. Until they recognize this they will remain powerless.
The U.S. should be looking to Asian cities as a model for reenvisioning America, with populations concentrated in urban areas, extensive rail systems, and urban infrastructure for the 21st century. The "American dream" of big home and cars is, I believe, a lonely one.
Many people do not realize what it is like to live in a progressive middle class metropolis. I actually believe much of the discontent of many Americans has to do with isolation that comes from living in suburbs where you must drive everywhere. People become disconnected from their communities and from one another. It's no coincidence that the mostly densely populated urban areas are often the most innovative and progressive.
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Actually, economically, you do need immigrants. Neither the US nor the UK (nor Canada) have birth rates sufficient to support their current rates of economic growth. Never mind who's going to fund the next generation of pensions etc. And who's going to do the dirty jobs. So sans immigration, you get short term inflation, and long term stagnation. Since the world has no shortage of people, this is an easy problem to solve... or is it? If your answer is "ok you can bring in more people, but only people that look like me", then that reveals a lot. If your answer is "all those people that don't look like me are the reason I'm not getting ahead in life", then that reveals even more.
Both US and UK seem to suffer from Pottery Barn syndrome - you broke it, you bought it. My ancestors might opine, "The British came and sat about in our living room for 300 years, so now we have a right to go sit in theirs." To me, that sounds fair! The Middle East busted up by the Sykes-Picot agreement. Post WWII, American interventionalism in Asia and the Middle East. It's a long list. Well, refugees and immigrants from those countries have now lived in your country for up to three generations. You can't ask them to go home. They are home. And they're no less children of your soil than you are.
There are economic arguments to be made for one policy or another. But when these economic arguments start including "But it's the fault of the immigrants!", then I stop listening seriously. That's scapegoating.
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]The UK is allowed to control who goes into the UK.
This statement is factually incorrect. If you have an EU passport you cannot be denied entry to the UK. Currently, under EU law the UK cannot limit the numbers of EU citizens entering the UK.
But the people did not go and get the facts, not in the US and not in England. You believed the xenophobic slogans and ignored the facts,
Many of us took a great deal of time and energy to research the EU, to dig deep into its history, its origins, what it wants to achieve and how it wants to do it. We did not just follow slogans. 1trouble's posts regarding the EU have been razor sharp, incisive and get right to the heart of the matter and I concur with 1trouble on every point.
Re Brexit - As part of the commonwealth, our ties and loyalty to Britain were enormous. Our trade deals funded significant parts of our economy. The UK affiliation with the EU changed all that. As a country we were dismissed and the hurt from the apparent lack of loyalty lingered for many, especially the older generations who had fought for King and Country.
Many, many of us in this country (as you now know following the referendum, the majority) have never been happy about that situation. It has taken us many years to get a referendum on the matter, and finally, when on 23rd June we had the chance to speak, the right decision was made and we voted to leave the undemocratic political construction known as the EU. I hope we can now do something to salve the hurt felt by our relatives and friends in the commonwealth.
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It has been appalling to me in this past week how people have treated others due to the two despicable "choices" we in the US were given. Sadly as I am catching up here I see more of the same. Let's be clear here that being found not guilty (Hilary) does not equate innocence.
She was guilty as hell, and got away with it. Lucky her, just as her husband got away with his BS when he was president. I am entitled to say that because I voted for him back then. I voted for him because I couldn't stand the other "choice" that we were given for president. Not voting for Hilary for most of the MILLIONS of citizens here had not a single damn thing with race, with women's rights/values, LGBT, or many of the many other FALSE accusations that have been slung from the loving and progressive liberal folks that supported her. It had to do with the criminal activity that she got away with. Then instead of owning her mess, she lied to the world. She made a HUGE and arrogant error that any lower level government employee knows better then. Yet according to her supporters she should now be trusted with even more of our national security.
I am a woman, who would have loved absolutely nothing better then to have had a awesome woman candidate to give my whole hearted support to. A woman who possibly had not been coddled her entire life. A woman who possibly had experienced some real hardship or struggle in her life. A woman who possibly has had to worry about finances at SOME point in her life. Even if it a woman's had never faced any of these struggles, then at least a woman who had not so blatantly and flagrantly misused her position to break the rules and risk our country's security. I am a woman who has faced abuse. Sexual, emotional, and more.
I am an unaffiliated registered voter, and have NEVER voted along party lines. I have always voted for a split ticket based off of who I thought was the better candidate. In this presidential race there was not a better candidate. In the earlier days of the election, there WERE better candidates but they were shut out. The Democrats made a huge error in judgement when they selected Hilary. Why they thought they could shove another Clinton down our throats shows how out of touch they are with huge swaths of Americans.
I could really go on, and on but let me say this:
I love black people.
I love gay people (my niece is married to a woman).
I love Mexican people (my child is half Mexican).
I am all about woman succeeding.
I am not anti-Muslim.
And the list can go on and on and on.
I didn't "throw" my vote away. I voted AGAINST Hilary. I am not uneducated, I am not ignorant, and I wish so much our "choices" had been better.
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Good, educated citizens looked at the brexit referendum and the American presidential election and came to their positions based on their unique experiences and perspective.
Why is that so hard to accept? It's called cognitive dissonance. We've done a fantastic job demonstrating it. Here's a pretty good explanation.
http://blog.dilbert.com
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I keep going back to the wise words of Desmond Tutu: "If you are neutral in situations of injustice, you have chosen the side of the oppressor."
At the end of the day, I believe anyone who cast their vote for Trump has sided with the wrong administration. By voting for a hateful misogynist, racist, xenophobic man with no political experience, you have chosen to align yourself with a leader with those values. Not to mention climate change and Trump's trying to find the quickest way out of the Paris agreement. All of this will have serious repercussions in the rest of the world. Also, I'm sure by now we have all seen and/or heard about Day 1 in Trump's America where children of immigrants and people of color are being openly bullied and humiliated.
I'm not interested in excusing people for voting for a clown.
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From the link I posted it's clear which of these doors you've chosen for now, Evas,but there is a choice .
Here’s the setup that triggered them.
1. They believe they are smart and well-informed.
2. Their good judgement told them Trump is OBVIOUSLY the next Hitler, or something similarly bad.
3. Half of the voters of the United States – including a lot of smart people – voted Trump into office anyway.
Those “facts” can’t be reconciled in the minds of the anti-Trumpers. Mentally, something has to give. That’s where cognitive dissonance comes in.
There are two ways for an anti-Trumper to interpret that reality. One option is to accept that if half the public doesn’t see Trump as a dangerous monster, perhaps he isn’t. But that would conflict with a person’s self-image as being smart and well-informed in the first place. When you violate a person’s self-image, it triggers cognitive dissonance to explain-away the discrepancy.
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One of the things I remember from about 5th grade was my teacher explaining that America is looked up to all over the world BECAUSE we are a 'melting pot' where everyone can come, be welcome and prosper.
After all of this bigotry and ignorance elected to the highest office in the world that showed the opposite, wonder what we look like now?
(BTW, I don't see Trump as a Republican. I see him as a bigot, a misogynist a racist and a bunch of other negative terms, not a Republican.)
What does the Statue of Liberty mean to Trump? How do we explain this to children?
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From the link I posted it's clear which of these doors you've chosen for now, Evas,but there is a choice .
Here’s the setup that triggered them.
1. They believe they are smart and well-informed.
2. Their good judgement told them Trump is OBVIOUSLY the next Hitler, or something similarly bad.
3. Half of the voters of the United States – including a lot of smart people – voted Trump into office anyway.
Those “facts” can’t be reconciled in the minds of the anti-Trumpers. Mentally, something has to give. That’s where cognitive dissonance comes in.
There are two ways for an anti-Trumper to interpret that reality. One option is to accept that if half the public doesn’t see Trump as a dangerous monster, perhaps he isn’t. But that would conflict with a person’s self-image as being smart and well-informed in the first place. When you violate a person’s self-image, it triggers cognitive dissonance to explain-away the discrepancy.
Nearly half of all registered voters didn't vote. Trump won by an extremely small margin, and Clinton won the popular vote. A minority of Americans elected Trump into office, and surely some unenthusiastically. These are just people who can vote; there are many in the U.S. who, due to age, immigration status, or other circumstances cannot cast a ballot.
This list is full of logical fallacies. I actually think most Americans were lukewarm on both candidates. Many people want to protest the more divisive things Trump said, and we should all be interested in preserving the right to assemble peacefully.
People would do more to collectively asset their power by mass boycotts, however. This was also the lesson of MLK and Gandhi.
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Living in the Midwest, I am no expert on Brexit. But this conversation has been very interesting and I see many similarities as to the issue of immigration. Yes countries need immigrants. However in the Midwest there is the same undertone that somehow we are losing the part that of the culture related to "American ness". For many that centers around the issues of the economy and immigration, but its really the general fairness idea. Here its the seeminly never ending flood of illegal immigrants from Central and South America.
Its a class issue as well. No one complains when doctors and scientists immigrate here. But there are huge numbers of complaints about no skilled and low skilled immigrants, largely illegal, that are here.
And its the attitude of many of these immigrants that irritates here in the US, especially here in the Midwest. I can't speak to other areas as this is where I live daily.
When my parents arrived here, the first order of business was to learn English. Our native language was spoken at home, but in public English was spoken or you kept quiet until you learned the correct words. Speaking X was embarrassing, to them as they were now Americans. There were no options to push 1 for English 2 for Spanish or clerks that only spoke Spanish or expectations of special allowances in schools.
2. A few months after they became citizens the Vietnam War broke out. My grandmother walked her 6 sons down to the military recruiting center and signed them all up for service. She only asked that her youngest be allowed to stay home and finish high school before he enlisted. All five of the rest served multiple tours in Vietnam. Baba felt she owed it to the US for the privilege of living here. She said we must pay back the country that took us in and gave us the opportunity to have such a good life.
3. All six of Baba sons and her daughter went on to earn advanced degrees or were skilled tradesmen. No ever collected any type of aid from the government. It would have brought great shame on the family to do so.
4. None were ever involved in criminal troubles. That would have been an even bigger shame.
5. Voting day was a huge deal for Baba. She dressed in her Sunday dress and we all went to vote together. Then dinner was served and candles were lit and prayers said. She had poured over newspapers and flyers to make her decision. Loud talk among the family and debates were had in the months leading up to the election so no one was unfamiliar with any of the issues.
But the times have changed. And change is scary for many.
There are fewer and fewer jobs for low and no skilled people of which the perception is that the US already has plenty of no skilled and unskilled workers without adding to the pool. The argument here in the Midwest goes something like, "No I don't want to pick my own carrots or lettuce or blueberries. Why not get some of these people laying around on public aid to do it in exchange for their check?". That is anger displaced against other Americans falling on the heads of nameless and faceless immigrants.
Next comes the argument, "Why should we pay more taxes to help these people and have our wages decline for the pleasure?". That's because not all immigrants stay in the jobs of picking. Some become tradesmen and more. So more anger as now some are moving up to better paying jobs. We had a whole page of jobs in the employment section that required all applicants to be bilingual which leaves out a high percentage of Americans. More anger.
Then there are constant screams about the number of aid recipients who are immigrants getting free healthcare when Americans are required to pay for Obamacare. Again the issue of fairness. More anger.
Then numbers are trotted out as to the number of crimes committed by illegals. By now the issue of immigration has been lumped together, illegal and legal, made to be virtually the same in the eyes of many here in the Midwest. Now "all" are seen as illegal law breakers. Any easy target for anger, even hatred.
The underlying theme here is Americans are angry about what they see as unfairness. Some politicians have funneled that anger towards an easy target, immigrants. It nicely deflects blame to a nameless mass rather than shines the light on the real problem of brokenness in the American governmental system and ineffectual policies. It is the easier solution that saves the jobs of career politicians. Find an "other" to hate. Bread and circuses for the masses at one time. Nazi Germany. Stalinist Russia. All successfully used this tactic at one time or another when the masses were angry. And for a time it worked. Economies grew under war machines. Politicans kept control. Anger simmered until the next time. This deflection also allows for Americans to duck responsibility for themselves. It makes an excuse for why our children are still living at home in their 20's and beyond. It makes an excuse for not achieving what our parents did. It makes it OK and almost understandable that men and women walk away from their responsibilities. Marriage not great? Its the spouses fault. Not happy all the time? Spouse and employer fault. Children in trouble at school or with the law? Not their fault. Not my fault. They are special and misunderstood. Can't behave? Get a pill. Won't listen? Teachers fault for being boring. Son an addict? He gets that from having no father. Son living in basement? His ex was a bad wife who bled him dry for child support. Didn't vote? Nobody appealed to me and I wasn't familiar with the issues. Daughter pregnant? Its the boyfriends fault for not using a condom.
Excuses excuses excuses. When did personal responsibility die?
Its something on this board that there have been huge fights over even though we all have so much in common, and great divides between sides have developed between two extremes. Tough love vs love them back. They are sick and less responsible for their actions to they are 100% responsible for this mess we all found ourselves in. Stand forever vs kick them to the curb quickly. The forum is for standers only vs the forum is for all and we can run around talking about dating like teenagers after their first sexual experience.
The middle ground is gone, or perhaps has largely gone silent for one reason or another.
Xenophobia is rising in the US. The US is a huge Goliath of a Super Power whose activities impact others and scare others. And the country elected Donald Trump on the slogan of Make America Great Again.
I'm disturbed for both the future of the US and the future of this forum when the vocal extremes polarize hot button issues as a tool to achieve their goals of control. It doesn't speak well for the future of either.
Lp
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Velika,
We agree. Trump was essentially flat with Romney. Hillary was off 5 million voters from Obamas 2012 number. A piss poor amount of voters showed up to vote. Neither candidates inspired people to vote.
I 100% support the protesters right to peaceful protest. They are acting as a watchdog on Trump.
I was simply emphasizing that it is much easier to demonize the other than to reflect, as Michael Moore (a Bernie fan)has done, and achknowledge the viewpoints of others are legit. For example, he spoke (NSFW) honestly of his friends, blue color labor member in Michigan. Their votes can be be justified and understood from their life experience without being racist, mysoginist, or anti-immigrant.
Watch Michael Moore empathize with a view he strongly disagrees, WITHOUT condemning the voter.
https://youtu.be/YKeYbEOSqYc
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I'm apologizing for going too far, as usual. I can't stand what has happened in the United States. I am genuinely concerned. I do not UNDERSTAND what anybody who is lucky enough to live in NORTH AMERICA has to be disgruntled about... at least not to the point that they bring themselves to vote for a person like Trump.
All that being said... I was out of line. I know I was.
For the record, I have not read anything that has been posted on here in the last day and a half. My sincerest apologies. I hope it works out for you, as you are hoping.
Stayed
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El Ray, thanks for the link. Absolutely, so important to really examine the motivations of these voters.
I actually think, however, that very "talk-y" types like Moore (and let's be honest virtually everyone else) reinforce the status quo by participating in the idea that these differences of opinion are something that we can simply resolve by discussing.
Organizers could do more for their political goals in a month-long mass boycott or proxy boycott of any number of large corporations than they could in a year or protests or demonstrations.
Maybe this is the overlap of political protest and MLC protest. Action over words.
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I support them too Elray.
How soon people forget the thousands of protesters who came out against Obama. Pictures if him, Hitler mustache an all.
Asking him to show his papers! Also saying "He's not my President!" ::)
So both parties have had their protesters over the years.
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I keep reading people say "Give Trump a chance." Um do we have any other choice? To be honest, I really don't think Trump himself can believe he won.
I also have been reading things like, Trump will be impeached, or maybe before it really counts some people who cast electoral votes can maybe be persuaded into voting for Hillary for the final and deciding tally, and once Trump starts working, his views won't manifest. It's not over yet.
One thing for sure is that we have a whole lot of angry people on both sides.
What I don't understand is if people are concerned about jobs, most were either outsourced to other countries or have become obsolete due to technology. Why not learn a new skill and seek employment with future growth? Why not start your own business?
Sorry to be the one to tell you, no immigrant 'stole' your job.
I'm very concerned about the present and the future of the US.
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El,
They are not going to get rid of the illegal immigrants. They know we need them.
They do hard work, that pays low wages, that even our teenagers won't do.
Nah, they aren't going anywhere. :)
There also will be no wall built.
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Instead of saying 'illegal immigrant' let's use 'undocumented worker'. They have done nothing illegal. They are not the criminals, until a law is broken. From what I bear witness to and agree w/ you Thunder, I see really hard workers in jobs most would never take.
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We should direct our efforts not towards illegal immigrants but towards the system of govenment that enforces the influx of cheap labor. Why we do not punish corporations or businesses that hire these poor people and pay miser for wages, often times off the books, no health care benefits, or other protection. Instead, we direct our efforts towards the weaker chain in this cycle. Our immigration laws need major overhaul. Enforcement of immigration laws is sole responsibility of our Government, that fails people everywhere.
People on this board are praising Hillary for her courage to deal with her family issues. We are also outraged rightfully for Trumpt's rhetoric against women. But let us just for one minute think what Bill Clinton did to Monica Lewinsky. It was exactly what Trump was saying that man in power are supposed to do. Bill Clinton was very well aware of his powers vis a vis a young and inexperienced intern. Yet HC stayed with him after this and many transgressions. For many people it seems like courage, for me it looks like opportunitic behavior, devoid of dignity. For one minute I do not doubt that her stand would have been much different should she not be married to the President. One has to lead by example. Again I voted for HC with hige reservations.
It is sad and tragic that a country of 320 mil people could not produce two better candidacies for the higher post than this. Let us hope for the better future.
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Elegance, i dont want to pick on you but out here it just isn't that simple.
"Why not train for another job?"
What other job? Retraining is a myth for most workers here. When Sunstrand pulled out, 5,000 jobs were lost. Average income of the workers $54,000. 4,862 people signed up for promised retraining. Retraing began 4 months after the plant closed. 300 people were retrained for a year for jobs at the airport. There were only 4 hired as there were only 4 openings. An additional 700 were retrained to work in jobs related to green technology. 0 were hired as the plant never opened. Another 178 were retrained based on their machining skills. In time 175 were hired by small businesses in the area. Average income for these people fell over $26,000 a year after being retrained. Sundstrand then brought 480 jobs back here. 15 of the previous workers were re-hired. The remainder of the jobs were filled by temp workers of which over 100 were illegal aliens. Hourly wage rate at the returned jobs was $9.61 an hour.
Average age of the workers before was 49. Current average age is 23.
Benefit status- pre full benefits. Post- over 79% report are receiving some kind of aid including Obamacare.
So what became of most of the workers?
Some moved away.
Over 27% are still unemployed.
63% are making $20, 000 less than they were 6 years ago.
6% report they are better off than before. Of those 6%, over half were managers and professionals.
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Aldi grocery store opened another store here. There were 17 job openings. 516 applicants showed up.
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We had a bailiff position open, a single post. We received 1116 applicants.
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Just where are these jobs we are supposed to retrain for? Because I can deliver 5,000 people there by noon tomorrow.
Lp
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Whether these allegations are true or not, is not the issue. Bill Clinton didn't talk trash about women. He didn't brag that he could grab them anywhere he wanted. He didn't call a woman on national TV a nasty woman.
Big difference between Bill and Donald.
Also, how could you have found anyone more qualified than Hillary to run for president? Why would you say she was a poor choice?
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Thunder, we do not know what and how Bill talked about in private. But his behavior towards women does not show neither respect nor appreciation. I am not by any way justifying what Trump said and done. What I am saying is that it is part of the culture that we should try to change, and HC was one who at least stood by the perpetrator. HC was not qualified to be a President, beased on many many factors both relating to domestic and foreign policies that she was pushing.
Now DT in my view cannot be objectively assessed because he is completely outside of the realm of civilized democratic process. His pronouncements are so vile and offensive that frankly only based on these he should have been disqualified.
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I couldn't help but laugh Thunder about the comparison between Bill and Donald. Let us not forget that old Bill was serviced orally by Monica in the White House. He had NUMEROUS sexual encounters most of which took place in the Oval Office. Bill has shown his disrespect for women including his own wife time and time again. That much has been proven, it is FACT.
Bill is no better the Donald, and Donald no better then Bill in regards to heir treatment of women. Hopefully Donald will have the good sense to not cheat on his wife in the White House. Old Bill sh!t in his own back yard, and got busted.
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Honour, I left clear in my posts that EU citizens can enter the UK. UK citizens, that until Leave is complete are also EU citizens, can also enter any EU country.
No passport is requited. I enter the UK with my ID card. Same for any EU country. EU citizens do not need a passport to travel within the EU.
EU citizens are not immigrants. They are citizens of the EU, and, for now, than includes British citizens.
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Book, don't get me wrong, what Bill did with Monica Lewinski was completely wrong!
I agree that is a fact. Plus he lied about it, which made it worse. But any other sexual encounters were never proven. Just like the women accusing Donald, there is no proof that I know of. I just go by what Donald said and it makes sense he did grab at these women. He pretty much admits he's done that.
I never heard Bill make remarks like that. Not in public anyway. Who knows what anyone says in private.
So what bad behavior are you talking about, karmirt?
As far as Hillary choosing to forgive Bill, a lot of wives have forgiven their H's after cheating on them. That doesn't make her or anyone else a bad or a stupid person.
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Please leave Bill Clinton out of this. He wasn't running. Trump was and his behavior IS deplorable.
LP, I'm not saying it's easy, yet when industries close up some people need to understand times have changed. It's not necessarily a foreign born person who is at fault.
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I love Hillary having to answer for Bill's sins. How many male candidates have had to answer for any of their wives' actions? We just aren't there yet. Sad but true. Like her, for all of us, our spouses' cheating, lying, despicable ways and/or our decisions to stand or not have no bearing on how well any of us do our work. Some of us have even used the opportunity to dig deeper and become more focused. That's what I saw in her. If it isn't what you saw, so be it. The damage is done.
Chris Rock 2020. ;)
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The only sins Hillary should have to answer for are her own. She has enough of them, and they are many.
We were given absolutely awful "choices" and that is the reality. Hillary dug her own grave and her not winning was no ones fault but her own. There were other candidates both democratic and republican who I could have embraced wholeheartedly. Truly ones o n both sides that would have been really awesome choices in comparison.
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Whether these allegations are true or not, is not the issue. Bill Clinton didn't talk trash about women. He didn't brag that he could grab them anywhere he wanted. He didn't call a woman on national TV a nasty woman.
Big difference between Bill and Donald.
How do you decide who to vote for when neither is appealing. Not voting is a bad option but there are so many shades of gray here. Some may see just one issue, such as Trump's negative comments about women, and decide that it's so deplorable they can't vote for that person but many people try to weigh all of the negatives and positives and vote for the best, or least worse, choice. I think some people were uncomfortable enough with Hillary that they felt, in spite of everything, Trump was still the better choice and I think unless you personally know these people who voted for Trump it's bigoted behavior to assume they voted for him because they agree with what he says about women or any other group.
It's true Bill is no Donald and vice versa and it's also true that Bill isn't the candidate, Hillary is. But there are similarities in the comparison between Bill and Donald and Hillary and Donald. We know who and what Donald is because he doesn't try to hide it but we thought Bill was better than that. It turns out that he was just better at hiding it, at least for a while he was. Some people feel the same way about Hillary vs. Donald. We don't know if Hillary is a better person or just better at hiding it but we've seen enough in her situation to feel very uncomfortable about her.
I told my daughter that at least with Donald we know who and what he is so we will know enough to be vigilant. Having said that, I couldn't vote for him. I couldn't picture him with the attitudes he's expressed as a legitimate representative of this country.
Perhaps this is why some people voted for Trump.
(http://www.jarofquotes.com/img/quotes/fdc8e998c823c45e819c89acab2e9eb3.jpg)
Perhaps this is why some people voted for Trump.
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There are so many interesting posts to respond to. Forgive me for including the points all at once.
MyBrainIsBroken, I didn't have any difficulty finding references to Trump's comments about his daughter. Here is just one of the mentions:
http://www.mediaite.com/online/donald-trump-wont-stop-joking-about-banging-his-daughter/
Generally speaking, in terms of the election, a lot may depend on the media a person is reading/watching/listening to. I am a left leaning progressive. However, I make a point of watching/reading/listening to conservative media as much as liberal media (as well as the news from other countries--particularly how America and our politics are viewed there) to have a broad understanding or what the media is putting out and what people think and why. I also do my own research, review primary source documents, etc. If we all commit to doing this we would at least understand what others are receiving and thinking a bit better. If anyone who leans slightly or far right would watch MSN, for example as much as I am watching news that may be comparatively challenging to watch, it may clarify why there are protests, fear, etc.
Interestingly, none of the military people I know voted for Trump. I only know a couple dozen closely enough to discuss the election at length, but they've remarked on his "utter lack of knowledge, qualifications, and preparedness" and said they knew he was not the right person for the job when he, "avoided military service," disrespected and harassed a gold star family, disrespected John McCain and insulted him for being a prisoner of war, and "childishly, arrogantly and ridiculously" said he knows more about ISIS than the Generals. Republican, General Colin Powell, also endorsed Clinton. There is grave concern among the military men and women that I have the privilege of knowing and the vast majority are Republicans and have never crossed party lines until now. One of them remarked that, regardless of what Trump actually means or does, the Klan, ISIS and Putin would NOT be celebrating if Clinton was elected, and Putin would never send her a congratulatory telegram. Another said that even if Trump is an unwitting stooge, who denounces these factions, he and the people he is surrounding himself with, appeal to the worst of our nature. Trump may now try to distance himself, but the fact remains that Clinton--for her imperfections--would never have appealed to any in those groups, and would never have wanted to even if it cost her the election. Another career military friend called Trump a buffoon, a clown, a total embarrassment to our country and said his completely ignorant Rambo comments like, "We'll bomb their asses" is going to get a lot of soldiers killed.
There is likely misinformation out about Trump as there is certainly an absurd amount of misinformation about Clinton, but many are talking about Trump's own actions throughout his campaign and before, that were seen with their own eyes and heard with their own ears. The difference is that some dismiss his behavior and rationalize by saying, "We take him seriously, but not literally." I'm not interested in someone for whom this is a game or manipulation. Trump knew he couldn't win without appealing to an extremist base, so he did and said whatever it took to get them on board and he knew how to do it and could stomach it.
There was an interesting discussion on one of the radio stations on Friday about the people who voted for Trump believing they are the majority and that the rest of America are out of touch. The researchers responding to this point said as they explore this hypothesis further it's appearing to be the opposite. That first, in fact, many of those who voted for Trump seem to be in an insular bubble and have not caught up with where the world is and is going, whether because they are not exposed to it or choose not to be. The majority of the country did not vote for Trump and I am confident the majority does not think like Trump or Pence, who people seems to be forgetting about, but who is ideologically even scarier than Trump. How scary? Read this: http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2016/10/mike-pence-isnt-boring-hes-one-americas-most-extreme-governors
I grew up in the Midwest and my family is still all there. They have been farmers for generations. Yet, none of them supported Trump nor do they believe he is better for America. You are right, MyBrainIsBroken, people are deciding what their deal breaker issues are and I am grateful to a family who said, "Better to lose money/land than one's soul." Eventually, I hope we figure out that the words, "United we stand. Divided we fall" aren't just hyperbole.
I don't believe this is a matter of everyone who voted for Trump being racist, mysogynistic, etc., but I do believe there is a deep naivite among some and yes, a cognitive dissonance or denial about his behavior and words. Trump is an opportunist--a win at all costs kind of guy. He willl say and do whatever he needs to to win, to rile up his base, but he wouldn't otherwise give any of them the time of day. Trump grew up in wealth. He's lived his life in decadence. He knows nothing of being working class. He wants the power of the presidency and he knew what he needed to do and say to get there. In the end, the people who are going to be most upset are those who voted for him, because he's not going to follow through on the things his base voted for. Already he is walking back some of his biggest talking points and his infrastructure plan is what Clinton already proposed.
Trump is over his head. He has no military or public office experience. He is now trying to get advisors in place to help him and is choosing such has beens as Gingrich who was reprimanded for ethics violations and had to resign and Guiliani. ::) Between them, these three men also have 9 wives and a lot of questionable behavior. So much for not being part of the "establishment" or a "career politician." As for Trump's understanding of economics, one of the financial analyses of his personal economic trajectory illustrated that he would have a lot more money today if he had simply invested the millions his father gave him rather than go into business due to his many poor decisions and financial losses.
I can't comprehend why anyone would vote for a candidate without first seeing his/her taxes and vetting them for business and investment conflicts of interest. It's equally mindboggling that Trump thinks a blind trust means his children can run his business (that is not a blind trust). The fact that he simultaneously names all three of his oldest children to his transition team when they are supposedly running said "blind trust," is most certainly also a conflict of interest. And Republicans were actually the first to take issue with Trump posting links to his hotels and to Melania's QVC jewelry line on at least one official .gov site which is a violation also.
If struggling Americans believe economic help is on the way, the non-partisan Tax Policy Center experts disagree:
"This paper analyzes presidential candidate Donald Trump’s revised tax proposal, which would significantly reduce marginal tax rates, increase standard deduction amounts, repeal personal exemptions, cap itemized deductions, and allow businesses to elect to expense new investment and not deduct interest expense. His proposal would cut taxes at all income levels, although the largest benefits, in dollar and percentage terms, would go to the highest-income households. Federal revenues would fall by $6.2 trillion over the first decade before accounting for added interest costs. Including interest costs, the federal debt would rise by $7.2 trillion over the first decade and by $20.9 trillion by 2036."
This abstract and the full report can be found at: http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/publications/analysis-donald-trumps-revised-tax-plan
To highlight just a few of the concerns reported about his tax plan: the wealthiest Americans would see millions in reduced taxes, while the lowest income familes would receive reduced taxes of only $560 dollars on average, and middle income families will see taxes go up about $2,000, due in large part to Trump's proposed elimination of the $4,000 deduction for each person in a family. Single parents are estimated to get hit the hardest which should be of utmost importance to this forum, particularly when women experience a more significant economic hit in divorces, in the majority of instances, already. Additionally, Trump has proposed to eliminate federal inheritance tax which only benefits 1% of the population which is the portion Trump and many of his friends and big-money financial contributors are a part of.
Trump appears very similar to other autocrats which various parts of the world are now warning the US about. Here is a piece for anyone interested.
http://www2.nybooks.com/daily/s3/nov/10/trump-election-autocracy-rules-for-survival.html
Phoenix
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Great post, as always, Phoenix. :)
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Phoenix,
It is much better to take trump less literally. He is adept at using persuasive language and posturing, but a literal interpretation will find constant conflicting statements.
You said you inquired on many different media sources, and went on to mention conflicts of interest concerns regarding Trump. Did you, by chance, catch the documentary Clinton Cash which is credited as being an important primary source starting the FBI Clinton foundation investigation? It largely focuses on conflicts of interest.
I agree that most People believe globalism is an unstoppable force and those who fight it are resisting an unstoppable future, but the same could be said for global warming.
I personally found his tax Plan very unimaginative and pretty much straight from the Paul Ryan play book. The one exception being the carry trade loop hole used by hedge fund managers to avoid paying taxes. That is the tax element I will be watching most closely to see if he sells out to Washington business as usual.
Trump may well be over his head. Time will tell.
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R2T,
Nobody is suggesting to make HC accountable for her husband's awful behavior vis a vis women. But her reactions to these deeds are her responsibility. And in my opinion, the reactions needed much to be desired. She certainly has a lot to answer on her own. In fact, yesterday she was blaming the FBI chief for her defeat. No self reflection, not accountability. Mirror work is definitely needed. Do you feel safe, for example having a President who shares her email server with the STBXH of Huma Abbedin, who everyone knows never been discrete or judicious with internet use. Huma Abbedin is a dual Saudi and American national who definitely possessed at some point Top Secret Clearance, and therefore did have access to classified information. Now do we share internet server between husband and wife while we work as a top aid to the Secretary fo State? HC was running to the highest office in the country, what she was thinking it is a walk in the park, because your pollsters tell you you are ahead double digits? This arrogance led to her loss. Again I feel very sad and worried for the future of America. I chose HC in spite of all her problems, because choosing Trump would be like trying to survive a strong earthquake with the ensuing tsunami, and my brain is not wired in the way to allow analyze complete and utter stupidity with traces of vitriol. My hope is that this will lead for the new generation of leaders to come forward.
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The UK is allowed to control who goes into the UK.
This statement is factually incorrect. If you have an EU passport you cannot be denied entry to the UK. Currently, under EU law the UK cannot limit the numbers of EU citizens entering the UK.
No passport is requited. I enter the UK with my ID card.
I rest my case.
https://www.gov.uk/uk-border-control/before-you-leave-for-the-uk
You can enter the UK with either a valid passport or a national identity card issued by a EEA country.
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I personally do put some of the blame on the FBI director. How can you not?
He cleared Clinton, after months of digging, of anything criminal, then days before the election he decides to reopen it again. ??
Then 2 days before the election he says they found nothing. NOTHING!
You don't think that influenced some people???
The Commission asked him if he was a registered Republican. His answer was..I have been a lifetime registered Republican, but I'm no longer a "registered" Republican. ::)
I'm sorry but that man should have been fired. Even the Attorney General said he should not have done it, AND recommended he didn't, because would appear to be influencing a general election. But he did it anyway.
So yes, it may have influenced some people. I'm sorry, Hillary is right.
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I agree with Thunder. HC did nothing wrong! Just nosy Republicans had it out for the Clinton's since they have been in Government! Even got a whole 'news' channel dedicated to crucifying them
The FBI 'investigation' was nonsense and horribly timed. What other election has EVER had anything like that days before a major election? Isn't there a law against that?
Do FOX news viewers ever research on their own or just take what FOX news says? you all seem to say the same things all the time coming from that channel! Just curious. I'd love to have an interesting discussion w/ one, if only they think on their own and didn't repeat FOX news talking points all day.
I agree W/ Chris Rock. CHRIS ROCK 2020! :D
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Thunder,
I am not saying that FBI 's investigation was not" strategically" planned, of course it was. What I am saying is Do not give ammunition to such investigations. Also we all remember a "serendipitous" encounter of Bill Thurman and Attorney General in Arizona airport, at the hight of FBI email investigation, just days before HC was cleared of criminal wrongdoing. To the outsider it looks like they were trying to hide something and pulling all the strings.
I grow up in Soviet Union and for me American democracy exemplifies something much more than for average American. I will never take for granted my right to vote and other freedoms in America. I also know how dangerous is that slippery slope towards totalitarianism. Unfortunately lately American political landscape is starting to look like two- party oligarchy. We need fresh air in politics.
Phoenix,
Great and informative post. Thank you.
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Elegance,
I do not watch news channels, any of them. For me they are like reality shows, all of them. I read my news and analyses. If it would have not been for my children I would have given up TV completely.
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Do you feel safe, for example having a President who shares her email server with the STBXH of Huma Abbedin, who everyone knows never been discrete or judicious with internet use. Huma Abbedin is a dual Saudi and American national who definitely possessed at some point Top Secret Clearance, and therefore did have access to classified information. Now do we share internet server between husband and wife while we work as a top aid to the Secretary fo State?
Sadly, I think you're tarring Huma Abedin with her husband's brush (as you also tarred Hilary Clinton with her husband's misdeeds, in your post). Factually: no, Clinton didn't 'share a server' with anyone. She emailed her aide Abedin. Who opened some of those emails (according to the FBI, not any classified ones) on her home computer (which was seized in the investigation of Weiner). And as a sideswipe, you kind of impugned Abedin's 'true American' credentials and right to a security clearance, by simply noting she was born in Saudi (a country that doesn't take you off their citizenship roster, even if you relinquish it - so no, Abedin is not actually a Saudi national - but it sure makes her sound scary, no? A Muslim??).
For one thing, that was a whole lotta innuendo, but nothing to either woman's discredit (and the FBI has confirmed this). Also I truly feel anyone this board who choses to blame a woman for her husband's sexual proclivities (or for not choosing to divorce said husband) might perhaps reconsider that position... given that many on this board are remaining married to spouses who have a few things to answer for. Our spouse's sins don't tar us. They're certainly not 'ammunition' for criminal investigation of us! As Phoenix noted, it's a cognitive dissonance.
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It is much better to take trump less literally.
The only people that is better for are those who are uncomfortable supporting him given what he literally said and did.
He is adept at using persuasive language and posturing,
I understand he seems adept to some. I have always found him an insecure, rather stupid, blowhard who is neither persuasive nor impressive.
but a literal interpretation will find constant conflicting statements.
That's because he is an opportunist who says and does whatever he needs to to win over whoever he is speaking to in the moment. Of course that approach will lead to contradiction and conflicting statements.
Did you, by chance, catch the documentary Clinton Cash which is credited as being an important primary source starting the FBI Clinton foundation investigation? It largely focuses on conflicts of interest.
Yes, I did watch the documentary and read the book by Conservative Republican activist and strategist, Peter Scweizer. I also saw several interviews in which he had to backtrack and admit he has no evidence in regards to Hillary Clinton crimes, nor any good answer when he was reminded that 9 different U.S. agencies approved one of the transactions he most focused on.
An independent government ethics expert, Bill Allison, also determined, in regards to Schweizer's allegations that, “There’s no smoking gun, no evidence that she (Clinton) changed the policy based on donations to the foundation.”
Also, Schweizer has since had to retract and correct "errors."
http://www.politico.com/story/2015/05/clinton-cash-publisher-corrects-7-or-8-inaccurate-passages-117946
http://mediamatters.org/research/2015/04/20/clinton-cash-author-peter-schweizers-long-histo/203209
If Hillary Clinton was judged on what she has genuinely done rather than being accused of doing and villified for, she would have a more fair playing field. As I have said repeatedly, no politician--including Hillary Clinton--is perfect. If that is what people are seeking, they won't find it in any party or candidate. However, from all that I know of her, personally and via extensive research, I would vote for her infinitely over Trump. Ultimately, many here will have to agree to disagree if we are confident about our decisions and the reasons why. And I am.
Phoenix
P.S. Right on, OSB.
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Phoenix is correct. It's not hard to find articles like the one she linked to that accuse Trump of all kinds of things. The problem is that those that I looked at were all twisting things Trump said in order to make it appear much worse than it really was. I can provide links for another dozen just like it but that doesn't mean they reflect the truth. So much of this goes on that I have to wonder how much of what people think they know about Trump is actually true.
Politics is a dirty business and it keeps getting dirtier. And it doesn't help when people make decisions about candidates based on articles like the one Phoenix linked to or based on last minute comments by the FBI Director. Too many people involved in politics are pursuing hidden agendas.
I'm sorry this topic was started, even though it's clearly valid since it was listed as Off-Topic. Ideally, THS is a place where LBSes can gather to find support and to support each other and this topic has caused a lot of contention which is hardly conducive to supporting each other. I've read every post and I haven't seen anything good come out of it which is why I'm done following it. I'm going to take my ball and go home.
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karmirtsaghik, I wasn't speaking about you :) No one in particular. Really I was just inquiring to have a dialog w/ a conservative Republican without contentious disagreement, that enjoyed enlightening me on their views for conversation, and not so much the familiar FOX news talking points.
I'll watch Morning Joe on MSNBC sometimes and enjoy it. He is a conservative Republican.
Like you, I often don't watch tv.
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OSB,
Show me one word where I tarred Huma for her husband's deeds. In fact, her boss should have followed Huma' s example. Actually FBI concluded that there were 22 top secret classified emails out of about 1900 that were found on Huma Abbedin's email server, which she was sharing at home with her husband. OSB in fact Huma, while at state department had a "special government employee" arrangement whereby she was allowed to work for a private consulting firm, Clinton foundation, and State department simultaneously. She was also allowed to telecommute from her home in NY. HC's email usage was negligent and did not follow the encryption protocol, besides when this investigation broke off her aids were trying to change the confidentiality headings of the emails. She was cleared of CRIMINAL wrongdoing but the practice left the intelligence specialists really puzzled and worried. It is naive to assume that in this day and age Huma Avbedin's or HC's home servers are safe and secure, especially that neither of them had any cybersecurity knowledge or concerns. The IT specialist that helped Clinton set her server took Article 5 protection, in order not to testify.
Also it is ludicrous to suggest that me mentioning Huma Abeddin' second nationality, I am implying "muslim". No, but for the yahoo's like Trump that is really a good target and if you add to it email scandal, there we get serious credibility issues for lots of people.
Neither I suggested that HC should be kept responsible for BC's sexual transgressions. But then she cannot judge Trump who just openly said what unfortunantely is true for many man in power, and her husband is sure not immune of it. It is not HC' s place to aswer for BC's sexual journeys outside the marriage, her responses to it, however are her responsibilities. She is not a poor woman who just chose to safe her marriage at all cost, she has chosen to live an undignified life because her Husband was the President. Just read her memoirs immediately after the Monika Lewinsky scandal.
OSB, do you have any idea how difficult it is to obtain Top Secret Security clearance for dual nationalities? I am sure somebody expedited that for Huma Abbedin. It takes almost 2 years. I live 20 miles outside DC, and have lots of friends whose career is pending upon receiving security clearance, which they are waiting for months if not years.
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I think you're missing the point MBB. I made one brief comment about this several posts ago because it goes to Trump's views and behavior toward women, even objectifying his own daughter. You said you were unable to find anything about it so I provided the info. linking to the Rolling Stone article the statement came from during an interview with Trump. The exact quote from Trump being, ""Yeah, she's (Ivanka) really something, and what a beauty, that one," he told the magazine. "If I weren't happily married and, ya know, her father..."
And while it seemed you were making light of a different statement Trump made about Ivanka on "The View," I stand by my point of his behavior toward women, including making such a creepy remark in his daughter's presence. You may not see it as inappropriate, but certianly the women on the View did, and so do I. If that is his, or anyone else's idea of humor. Ewwwww I can't stomach, let alone imagine, my father talking about me this way.
http://fusion.net/story/176716/heres-the-creepy-video-of-donald-trump-saying-hed-date-his-own-daughter/
Just as I find Trump's agreement that Howard Stern could call Ivanka a "piece of @ss"
and such sexualized photos of Ivanka as a child, like the one below, having a huge "ick" factor at best. (And note the giant gold parrots they are sitting on are having sex--no red flags there ::) )
(http://i1289.photobucket.com/albums/b504/Phoenix6497/Trump%20and%20ivanka_zpswmmogdoz.jpg) (http://s1289.photobucket.com/user/Phoenix6497/media/Trump%20and%20ivanka_zpswmmogdoz.jpg.html)
A man who sexualizes his own daughter, allows others to do the same (because she is just one more trophy to him and he only values women for one things so why should his daughter be any different?) and even thinks such things, let alone utters them out loud, has problems... We will have to disagree if you see it differently or think hearing Trump say the words himself and seeing the photo with your own eyes is "twisting" the facts. And women who want to see progress under Trump, shouldn't hold their breath.
Phoenix
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Phoenix,
I'm glad you reviewed the material relating to clintons pay to play foundation. I agree there is no smoking gun in the public record. One would need to power of subpoena to find hard evidence. But I must confess, I am confused and confounded again. When you discussed trumps potential conflicts of interest, do you also expect to apply a "smoking gun" standard before the threshold of concern is met, or is the standard different.
WRT taking trump literally, you seemed upset that he might have a private position different from a public position, and possibly take opportunistic advantage. Is that the standard all candidates should be held to?
My measure of his persuasion skill was not my personal opinion. I too find him to be a blowhard. I was simply measuring him based on performance. He captured and co-opted the Republican Party, and won the general election. Along the way he trolled the media at will, and defeated both the Bush family and the Clinton dynasty; two families who have ruled American established politics for 30 years. Love him or hate him, he stood the system on its head and defied all odds along the way. In recognizing this, is there not some strong persuasive factors involved in closing that deal?
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I'm not sure what you mean by "upset" though that is often the word used when a woman states her opinion.
No, I don't hold Trump to a different standard, but I'm surprised you don't know of the many conflicts of interests that even Republicans aren't sure how to fully address. Research it. You'll find the information or you can wait to see it become an increasing topic of news as his tenure nears.
I too find him to be a blowhard. I was simply measuring him based on performance. He captured and co-opted the Republican Party, and won the general election.
You interpret that to mean Trump performed well. I interpret it differently.
Phoenix
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Do FOX news viewers ever research on their own or just take what FOX news says? you all seem to say the same things all the time coming from that channel! Just curious. I'd love to have an interesting discussion w/ one, if only they think on their own and didn't repeat FOX news talking points all day.
So what you are saying is FOX is all wrong and the NY Times, CNN, ABC, NBC, CBS, google, facebook and many others are always right.
TBH I believe they are all wrong.
So how do you KNOW that the news is honest?
Where are YOU doing research that is infallible?
I know that watching different points of view is coming up with totally different FACTS.
That does not seem like honest coverage to me.
I understand that the medias job is to get ratings and sell news,
but who keeps them in line?
Who keeps them honest?
Sorry I am not buying what they are selling.
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People can ignore or disbelieve whatever media they choose, but for anyone interested, see below about Trump's Chief Strategist appointment. Perhaps it will now be more clear why people are afraid, angry and protesting. I assumed Trump would choose Bannon, but hoped against hope that the GOP would intervene and stop him. Nope. So much for checks and balances and bringing the country together. No surprise there.
Trump draws sharp rebuke over newly appointed chief strategist
https://www.washingtonpost.com/amphtml/news/post-politics/wp/2016/11/13/trump-draws-sharp-rebuke-concerns-over-newly-appointed-chief-white-house-strategist/
And Fox's article wasn't much better.
Maybe the Trump/Pence inaguration party will include cross burnings, swastika art, and a life-size cardboard cut out of Hitler for party goers to be photographed with.
As for protests, boycotts, working for the midterm elections, and resistance in general, I'm there. For those who feel the same, don't accept this. DO SOMETHING. And for those who want to rationalize or suggest it's not so bad and we should wait and see, save your breath--at least where I'm concerned. It will fall on deaf ears and unmoveable conviction.
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men people to do nothing." - Edmund Burke
Phoenix
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OP, Personally, I don't find FOX news to be very credible. you are of course, welcome to choose any way you wish to receive news. I'm more of a reader and thinker to come to my own conclusions.
I'm an Independent, that no longer has any party affiliation and have nothing to sell you :)
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OP, Personally, I don't find FOX news to be very credible. you are of course, welcome to choose any way you wish to receive news. I'm more of a reader and thinker to come to my own conclusions.
I'm an Independent, that no longer has any party affiliation and have nothing to sell you :)
So what are you reading that is unbiased?
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How about international news OP?
Btw, Paul Ryan seems determined to phase out Medicare next year. Hope that makes you happy.
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The chants of "Trump! Trump!" And more and more swastikas around the country. Immigrant children being bullied, asked to go "back home" when this IS their home.
How do you justify your vote? This doesn't scare you at all? Are you deaf and blind? The rest of the world stare at us in disbelief. Have you Trump supporters no knowledge of history? When your daughter gets raped where is she going to go?
I will no longer accept the things I cannot change, I will do my utmost to change the things I cannot accept.
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I will no longer accept the things I cannot change, I will do my utmost to change the things I cannot accept.
Evas, Is that the UnSerenity Prayer?
Paul Ryan seems determined to phase out Medicare next year.
Is Dirty Paul Ryan pushing wheel chairs off the cliff again? I don't know how that fella gets elected, what with all the elder abuse and all.
Maybe the Trump/Pence inaguration party will include cross burnings, swastika art, and a life-size cardboard cut out of Hitler for party goers to be photographed with.
I'm sure that's exactly what will happen, but never fear Mother Jones will be all over it.
All jousting aside, I am struck by how clearly post election views break, even here, along gender lines. I cannot begin to appreciate where women are coming from with these views, and to me we've approach cartoonish levels of doomsday projecting. I must accept, however, that I might be wrong in being so dismissive of these concerns.
What I've learned from participating in this conversation is that I definitely have a blind spot.
I must confess some satisfaction in seeing someone speak in a decidedly non PC manner; for me, the rules of political correctness made me feel resentment; my thoughts, my feelings, as a white male in society are invalid.
Finally, I see I still am holding some of my resentments from my MLC experience. I need to let go to be a better man.
Good talking with everyone on this thread. Wish the best for all of you!
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I think it is refreshing to hear people discuss this election and sensitive topics in a candid way. I actually think Americans are some of the most inhibited people on the planet. That extends to politics, romance, sex, family, daily life, etc.
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OP, it's not that they are biased, I don't find them to be very honest or factual and lead people in the wrong direction.
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I don't find them to be very honest or factual and lead people in the wrong direction.
Different semantics - I call the above biased and not good journalism.
I don't want the media to be deciding my vote,
I want real facts so that I can make my own decisions.
Don't lead me in any direction - please.
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It is really disturbing to hear what the Trump voters or supporters are saying. I live in one of the most liberal, affluent, and educated areas in the country, and we woke up to this. It is literally 15 miles away from my home.
http://wjla.com/news/local/montgomery-county-church-vandalized-with-racist-pro-trump-writing
You know, I wished I were as relaxed as Erlay, but our country is heading in very bad direction. Yesterday Trump appointed a white supremasist to be his chief strategist. Does it ring any bells? Rush Limbaugh is a raving liberal compared to this one.
I wonder, what parts of Trump's platform his supporters found attractive? We all should adopt zero tolerance attitude towards this kind of deeds. I do not understand people who call for coming together and healing. I cannot come together with people who think that it is ok to draw swastikas and yell profanities agaist minorities, women, lgbt. I simply cannot. It is time to put on my walking shoes for a one million woman march on January 21.
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I agree with you KS! I am considering marching as well, if not on Washington when in solidarity nearby.
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Me too, Velika!
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I will march too! A whole group of women in the town outside New York City where I live will march.
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The whole thing is almost like watching 1933 live and real.
It seems Trump election brought out every single fascist, nazi, racist, misogynist out there. Even in Portugal, where the extreme far right is a handful of people (very vocal ones when they hit the streets) they come out.
Marine Le Pen, the French extreme right leader is in heaven, saying now hers, and other like her time, has arrived.
Europe has seen enough of totalitarism and intolerance (WWII, Soviet Union, Portugal's and Spain's dictatorships, Easter European dictators), but iot seems it never has enough of it. And Turkey, that is both an European and an Asian country is diving into a deeper and deeper dictatorship where freedom of speech, press, polotical choice are being curtailed every single day with thousands of people being arrested.
Much I love history, not sure I like to be living inside of it.
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OK, OP I enjoy facts as well.
Anjae Velika, Thunder do you see what I'm talking about now? Does everyone see why I'm scared? Had no idea we had so many of those crazies among us.
Somebody reported whats going on to Trump and he got really serious and looked in the camera and said, STOP IT to all the ones harassing and intimidating minorities, women and Muslims who have reported being bullied.
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And then these people tell the demonstrators not to be afraid. Really, we are not afraid, but you should be. I am hoping that Montgomery county police is investigating and bringing to justice perpetrators. The priest of this church said that his parishioners are from 50 diffirent countries. I like what Bernie Sanders siad yesterday, that it is time to organize on the grasstoots level, and not in cocktail parties, hint, hint at the leadership of democratic party.
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Elegance, I know what you are talking about, and I had seen it even before Trump got elected. It really is quite similar to 1933. Both what happened before and lead to this (2008 crisis and all that come with it) and the election and its aftermath.
I truly hope things do not get as bad as they did in 1933. I don't think there will be a world war, but I would not be surprised if there were dark times for the US and even for Europe.
The US going back to a time where people can scream and write "whites only" is not only scary, but insane. It is 2016, not 1806.
I do understand the reasons for all that anger and those sayings, but it does not make it any less scary.
Time for the Democrats, their European counterpars to take a good deep look at themselves, go back to their core values and really start to pay attention to people, rather than to big corporarions, banks, etc. Otherwise, people like Trump and the likes will keep being elected.
Not easy, but it is possible to give everyone a better life and have more balance and equality. The means and the ideas exist, it is a question of putting them in place. And of totally re-shifting the way things have been done till now.
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Elegance, I know what you are talking about, and I had seen it even before Trump got elected. It really is quite similar to 1933. Both what happened before and lead to this (2008 crisis and all that come with it) and the election and its aftermath.
I truly hope things do not get as bad as they did in 1933. I don't think there will be a world war, but I would not be surprised if there were dark times for the US and even for Europe.
The US going back to a time where people can scream and write "whites only" is not only scary, but insane. It is 2016, not 1806.
I do understand the reasons for all that anger and those sayings, but it does not make it any less scary.
Time for the Democrats, their European counterpars to take a good deep look at themselves, go back to their core values and really start to pay attention to people, rather than to big corporarions, banks, etc. Otherwise, people like Trump and the likes will keep being elected.
Not easy, but it is possible to give everyone a better life and have more balance and equality. The means and the ideas exist, it is a question of putting them in place. And of totally re-shifting the way things have been done till now.
I like what Bernie Sanders siad yesterday, that it is time to organize on the grasstoots level, and not in cocktail parties, hint, hint at the leadership of democratic party.
Exactly. Enough of fancyness, time to get around the people and work for the people.
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This is why I had so much trouble just doing my job at the polls. they saw me as an immigrant, an outsider, one of the ones stealing their jobs, a Latina....I guess. Which I am none of those things. Such bigotry is now the norm and accepted.
All of a sudden life looks so bleak here :(
yes Anjae
Just saw this for NYC: Join demonstrators in New York City as they march up 5th Ave over the weekend during a protest against President-elect Donald Trump.
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First let me apologize for not posting sooner, we have had company staying at our house.
I was considering staying away from this thread—which has been interesting and is fine as an off-topic discussion for this forum. It was going along quite well until… and now I feel I must speak up. Thus far I have only read the initial thread and am simply posting on this one since I’m a few days late.
Please dont make this personal
OP how can I as a woman not make it personal when you vote for someone who thinks it's OK to demean women? "Grab them by the kitty"? Seriously? And you wonder why your wife ran off? Is that OK speech in your household? It's OK to judge and demean women? If no, then why is it OK for a president? Do you even begin to grasp the meanings of the words coming out of Trump's mouth? I find it difficult to respect any man (or woman) who vote for a racist, misogynist bigot.
Am I serious? You bet. If you think it is OK to demean women, to degrade them, to call women pigs, to say "grab them by the kitty", then you have zero respect for women. Do you seriously think it is OK for ANY man to say the things Trump has said? I'd leave a man saying or thinking it is OK to say a thing like that in a second. And yes, I do believe (and hope) many other women would too. Let me ask you this: Are you seriously saying you think a woman should tolerate that kind of talk?
So it is OK to "believe" that women are objects that can be called pigs? Demeaning women is discrimination it is not a believe this or believe that.
Being seen and heard as a human being (even though you are a woman) is a human right, not a belief system. We fight it when we see it in other countries, but somehow it is accepted in our own.
Exactly, and if you're OK with a president who has stated over and over again that that is how he views women, then perhaps that's OK in your household? It is how you yourself perhaps view women? And that's what I mean. If that's the case, then I don't blame anyone for leaving. The one thing this election has done that's good - yet painful - is shed a light on what our true "beliefs" are. Do we believe that every human has a right to be seen or heard whether woman, man, black or white or whatever religion? Or do we believe it is OK to humiliate and abuse someone because they are in a weaker position/minority?
Evas, I agree completely with your view of Trump, but I absolutely disagree with your personal attack of OldPilot and YES it was a personal attack. It was not only rude and inappropriate, it was against the Terms of Service Agreement for the forum.
Voting for Trump in ABSOLUTELY IN NO WAY MEANS SOMEONE AGREES WITH HIS VIEW OF WOMEN, MINORITIES, LGBQT, MUSLIMS…
I understand your frustration…hey I feel it. But I am married to a man who not only voted for Trump, but who is happy and excited and now wants to go out and get a Trump hat—I told him he is not to wear it in at home or in my presence.
I’m not surprised, I know who I married, but I will still admit to being embarrassed and maybe even ashamed. But Chuck isn’t a misogynist or racist… I’ve never heard him demean women. I now live in Trump country. Our neighbor is also excited and he’s a great guy—I don’t know who his lovely wife voted for. It’s a paradox. I too wonder how wonderful men and women (our church Grandma was more than just a Trump voter; she is a supporter) can vote for him given his character—and I’ve been watching him for ~25 years and thought him disgusting way back when. But people I know and love did more than just vote for him. Yes, I am still struggling to wrap my head around it, but I am absolutely confident in both Chuck and OldPilot NOT being racist misogynists. Some of the people who voted him certainly share aspects of his character, but not 46% of the country.
I agree with what people have said about political experience—it does seem important.
But what this came down to for many was which persons’ sins were greater—or character worse—and determining such a thing is subjective to each individual It like how a jury must fid someone guilty beyond reasonable doubt. What does that mean? Have we found a way to measure reasonable doubt and ensure that each juror votes that way? No, but even if we had it would still vary from person to person.
The challenge now for some discussions is that how can we separate the man from the office and from a political discussion now that he is going to be president. Before it was kind of a no-brainer. We could maybe discuss the man without making the discussion about politics. A discussion about rape and sexual harassment shouldn’t be political or partisan and yet now that gets drug in.
I might not have a problem with his politics…we will see. And yet for me I don’t care—sorry as I don’t like admitting that. It’s not apathy, it is that his character (lack thereof) is more important for me. Supposing his politics are okay (to me), I then still think it is not worth it; I’d rather have someone I disagree with politically—to me he is that bad and I think many of you feel that way as well.
But I am not going to stop loving Chuck because he voted for someone I find vile. And I am not going to stop thinking OldPilot is one of the most awesome and amazing guys ever.
Albus Dumbledore said that one of Voldemeort’s greatest skills was creating division. Well, that is what Trump has been doing as well and regarding that articular skill, please don’t let him win. Please do not lower yourself to his bullying and start doing it too. Have the Unconditionals ever been more important?
If Trump is going to be an example for you, please let him be an example of what not to be and instead Be Grace.
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Voting decisions do speak to core values. We can't conveniently separate them out because they are difficult to reconcile with the people we know and a country we love.
Anyone who votes for a political candidate is endorsing that person and is making a statement that whatever flaws, issues, ugliness they exhibit is secondary to other things they (the voter) has determined are more important. This board can debate all day which issues are deal breakers and, like the country, we aren't going to agree, because our core values are different and that is exactly the problem and exactly why people fear for their safety and lives and those of their children and loved ones.
Though the majority of Americans did not vote for Trump, we can't deny that approximately 25% of eligible voters did. And, as one moderate Republican said recently, "Even if it makes us feel better to say that those who voted for Trump are not actively racist, homophobic, mysogynistic, xenophobic..., it cannot be denied that they were still willing to vote for someone who is." And many of those same people are now not grasping what it means to have a proudly self-admitted, and well-known white nationalists appointed to a Whitehouse position with top secret clearance. There is an ignorance or denial or something more sinister in this country that boggles the mind. Just how many examples of deplorable do people need? Just where is that tipping point for each of us?
And, yes, my husband would absolutely have killed our marriage had he voted for Trump. Betrayal is betrayal. And that action would have been a direct assault on D and me as women and humans of value, as well as who we are and what we value fundamentally. It would also have been a betrayal of the human rights, dignity, equality, and safety of others which I would not be able to respect and it would have made H untrustworthy to me given my core values. The betrayal and the loss of respect and trust would have destroyed my marriage if he voted for Trump, just as his betrayal of D and me, our friends, his change in core values, etc. destroyed our marriage in MLC. And H would have felt the same about me, if I voted for Trump, as our shared values were a fundamental part of what brought us together and made us attractive and partner and parent material to the other.
I'm not an alarmist, by nature, but anyone who works, or is an activist, in the area of human rights and dignity has seen this coming for a long time ---a wave of fear as the world and our country diversifies and people are faced with the unfamilar, the unknown and those they too often believe are competition for jobs and survival, or are a threat to their way of life and way of thinkng and worshipping. That is what this vote was about....fear. Fear of the "other." Fear I won't get mine if someone else gets theirs. Fear that some mythical America of yesteryear is disappearing. Fear that woman gaining equal footing emasculates men. Fear about global issues. Fear about the economy. Fear about Christianity being diluted.
This is the same exact fear that Hitler was able to manipulated and capitalize on and use to lull people into a sense of security that he had the answers and would save them and they followed all the way to their demise, the obliteration of their country and his accumulation of massive wealth and power. There is a tremendous arrogance or naivite in thinking that just because it's almost 2017 and this is America and we have a "free" press, and checks and balances, blah, blah, blah that this can't happen here. We have to wake up. We are no better and no different than other countries in which this has, or is happening, in modern times. All the same elements are in place as are the same lack of safe guards. America has been under the impression that certain things could never happen because they aren't "allowed." Now we are learning certain things never happened because our better angels prevailed or it was the practice of past administrations which was respected, in turn, by each new Administration... until now.
I won't stand by silentely or complacently while the country my daughter lives in teters on the precipice of fear and hate. We have time to do something. Time to not go down the path that other countries now find themselves on. Time to make our world truly better for all children and none are lesser because their parents are black or brown, Jewish, Muslim, Gay, Trangender, econonmically insecure... But our first step is in understanding that people who voted for Trump have fundamental values that allowed him to get this far. Now the question is how many of those same people will wake up and see this is not the direction they wanted or intended and stand with others in saying: This will not happen here. We will not let you take us backwards. We will not let you make us hate mongers. We will not allow the demeaning and abuse of others. We will not value another person's dignity and rights less than our own. We will not. We will not. That too is grace.
Phoenix
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And, yes, my husband would absolutely have killed our marriage had he voted for Trump. Betrayal is betrayal.
Maybe it isn't like this for every marriage, but this is me, too! That's why I was so disturbed by my xH's involvement with the tea party/extremist stuff when he'd essentially been the opposite of that before. It was like he'd joined a cult. There is no way that could have coexisted in our marriage and it would be a huge roadblock to reconciliation. If he'd had any of those leanings prior, we would not have been together. Foundation is foundation, and without being able to reconcile those beliefs at base level, I have no clue what we would be building on.
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Thank you Phoenix for speaking honestly and opening about this.
There are things happening that just should not be happening. I hope for the best and that we do not become divided even more on the many issues that have reared their ugly head with this election.
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Hi Phoenix,
The majority of Americans voted for Hillary Clinton. Trump won by having more of the Electoral votes, which is why I say we stop using the Electoral College system for President.
Still way too many of the Trump voters around to me and we really don't know if they all stand for all the bigotry Trump spewed while he was campaigning.
I personally recently have purchased self protection because you just never know who is who or how people really feel and I'd prefer to be safe than sorry.
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I say we stop using the Electoral College system for President.
The reason this system is used is to eliminate an extremely small percentage of the country (who tend to live in extremely concentrated areas) have the ability to elect the candidate of their choice to the exclusion of the rest of the country. The Electoral College allows for equal input from more sparsely populated areas. It may not be perfect, but its a fair system.
I personally recently have purchased self protection because you just never know who is who or how people really feel and I'd prefer to be safe than sorry.
I have carried for years. There have been evil people since time began, its nothing new.
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I absolutely agree on the electoral college, Slow Fade. It is frustrating when we have elections like this where popular vote and electoral college aren't congruent, but it does its job the way it is set up to do.
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The word integrity comes from the word "intact": whole, integrated.
When we have integrity our actions, words, beliefs are integrated: how we treat one another, how we speak about one another, how we behave whether or not someone is watching.
To vote for someone who publicly endorses sexism, racism, bigotry, and xenophobia is to vote without integrity. It reveals a lack of wholeness of the person.
All humans are flawed and we are all always learning. True integrity is a daily task involving many tests of our integrity and facing/owning/correctling when we fail to uphold our own deep values. At least in theory, religion recognizes this in its daily and weekly rituals and sermons to remind us to the ideals we hold and aspire to.
For me my personal and political experience collided with this election. What we see in MLC is exactly what we see in this election -- a "did-ease" and in my belief a true mental sickness that spreads from one generation to another when boys and men grow up with some idea that they are not empathetic, tender, connected to, and aligned with all other humans. When they are not INTEGRATED, or whole.
I applaud any one who calls out someone who acts without integrity, and even more so who can do it with persuasion, persistence -- and their own integrity intact.
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I absolutely agree on the electoral college, Slow Fade. It is frustrating when we have elections like this where popular vote and electoral college aren't congruent, but it does its job the way it is set up to do.
And we need to understand as far as the popular vote is concerned that not all of the absentee ballots were counted if it was decided that the number of absentee ballots would not affect the outcome of the vote at the polls so we really don't know who actually "won" the popular vote......
When we have integrity our actions, words, beliefs are integrated: how we treat one another, how we speak about one another, how we behave whether or not someone is watching.
To vote for someone who publicly endorses sexism, racism, bigotry, and xenophobia is to vote without integrity. It reveals a lack of wholeness of the person.
I agree. And this is why I voted the way I did. However I think that to throw a tantrum like a two year old and to riot (yes, riot not protest) in the streets just because the vote did not go according to how your personal integrity thought it should go is rather hypocritical. It lacks the tolerance, love and inclusion that people say one candidate lacks. How does that make one side any better than the other? I'm embarrassed for the people who are trying to forcibly impose their will upon a populace who have exercised their right in the constitutional fashion that is set up in this country. Protest? Sure. But to destroy property, ridicule others, physically attack people? How is that better? Personally my candidate did not win. However I do NOT want to be associated with people who act like some people in the country are acting. That goes against MY integrity.
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I am with Phoenix, Velika, and R2T. I could not imagine being married to somebody who has voted for Trump, i.e. for the ideals and values that he represent. I could see it in Roomney vs. Obama scenario, but this is a completely different animal.
Slow Fade
Do you want me to offer meditation classes and reflexology to people who vandalized church yesterday in my community, or for the white supremasists that now effectively took over the West Wing of White House? Please, be real. There should be absolutely zero tolerance for deeds and words like this. We should use all legal means in our disposal, including protesting. It is our constituional right. Otherwise, I would have problems looking my daughter in the eye, when she asked me why we did not do anything when her future was at stake.
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I rest near NYC. I'm embarrassed that Trump comes from here. I still have a queasy feeling in my stomach from this election.
One funny thing I've always thought Trump wanted to be. It's from a movie in the 90's starring Christopher Walken called 'King of New York'. The character's name was Frank White. Not a comedy at all yet showed Frank White had this massive ego that I feel Trump has. I feel Trump thinks he was already was the King of New York, so now that and reality tv seemed to bore him, he ran to be King the the world lol
Trump, I feel saw the election as a contest, something to win, and then it's over. I don't feel he thinks it's just starting. I feel he is completely clueless, unqualified and unprepared.
I fear for our future. It was on the news last night Trump had a very recent conversation w/ Russian 'President?' Putin. Is it just me that feels Putin had something to do w/ the Wikileaks leaked email of Clinton to have Trump win?
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We should use all legal means
I agree. LEGAL means. Illegal actions on EITHER side are not to be tolerated.
I could not imagine being married to somebody who has voted for Trump
I'm sorry, but my vows said "in sickness and in health, till death do us part" and I don't take them lightly. If adultery did not send me to divorce court then certainly voting for an opposing candidate would not either.
Do you want me to offer meditation classes and reflexology to people who vandalized church yesterday in my community, or for the white supremasists that now effectively took over the West Wing of White House?
Seriously? I live in a community that had an extreme white supremacy base for many years.....lots of churches, houses and businesses were vandalized and terrorized. Do you know how we got them out? By enforcing the law. Arresting people who were breaking it. Did we riot and break windows and beat people up? NO, we gathered as a community and used every LEGAL means at our disposal. Vandalizing property, calling people names, being violent would have made us no better than they were.
I think there are a lot of chicken little's running around saying the sky is falling. Personally I will wait and see. There is nothing to protest until there is something to protest. That is why we have checks and balances. That is why we vote. That is why we have access to our representatives and congressmen. I would just like to tell everyone to calm down. The sun still came up on Nov. 9th. The world didn't end. Its our jobs to be watchful and vigilant, but to riot over a duly elected candidate no matter how repulsive is lowering ourselves to the same level. There are a LOT of other ways to make things happen than to act like thugs. We are better than that......
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Slow Fade,
I totally agree with you. And never, ever would I divorce my husband because we have different views. We have 2 daughters, and I pity the man who messes with them, no way would my husband tolerate it. FROM ANYONE. He doesn't agree with what Trump said, but then he knows how men talk. He hears it all the time in his job.
And some advise now, don't EVER bash my husband because of who he voted for. Ride or die, that's how we roll
FH
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Slow Fade,
Where were these "checks and balances" when GWB enacted a Patriot act with sweeping intruisions in our privacy in the name of national security. Where were these " checks and balances" when the same GWB entangled us in illegal and immoral war in Iraq, when whaterboarding and torture were norm. DId existing laws prevent people like Cheney, Rumsfeld, Wlfowitz, Condolezza Rice. NO.
Half of these people should stand the court as war criminals. Where are these checks and balanced when we allow ourselves to entangle in Syrian conflict amd are effectively engaged in proxy war in order to topple Asad, at a cost of suffering of millions of people. The political system of the country is a two-party oligarchy, whereby fear and ignorance are ruling. There is a huge need for grassroot mobilization. I am not one of the people who use scare tactics to say that the sky is falling down, but I also know how fragile is that slippery slope towards authoritarianism.
FH
I could not imagine marrying a man who had a political views in line with thouse of Trump. MY H's family is made of right wing people, but his political views and mine allign.
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To vote for someone who publicly endorses sexism, racism, bigotry, and xenophobia is to vote without integrity. It reveals a lack of wholeness of the person.
Not to parse this statement to death, but it is essential to your argument and therefore it is important to point out the above statement is opinion not fact. There was, as a statement of fact, no one on the ticket who publicly endorsed sexism, racism, bigotry, or xenophobia.
There were many who held the opinion that Trumps words equated to any number of *isms, but his position was that he was politically incorrect and he wasn't an *ism of any type. We know explicit racisim when we see it. There have been many painful examples of it this past week. Softer forms of racism are much more of the opinion variety, ranging from overt racist humor, to politically incorrect, to white privileged.
Be aware that what you state as fact, many others saw in their opinion, as political incorrectness, not an *ism of any variety. To further confuse the case, the Democrats had accused every republican candidate in recent history as a host of *isms...they lost their credibility in the eyes of many electors by previous actions. Many opinion makers have openly discussed that issue as a signficant challenge.
There are, for example, many who hold the opinion that "building a wall" is xenophobic, but security walls are common throughout the world, and in most places, the political debate does not brand the proponent xenophobic. In fact, 1/3rd of all countries have a security wall in place or under construction. Branding Trump as xenophobic is a fair OPINION to state, but it is by no means a FACT.
To provide but a few examples:
- In July, Hungary's right-wing government began building a four-metre-high (13 feet) fence along its border with Serbia to stanch the flow of refugees from Syria, Iraq and Afghanistan.
Three other countries – Kenya, Saudi Arabia and Turkey – are all constructing border fences in a bid to keep out jihadist groups next door in Somalia, Iraq and Syria.
Seven miles of barrier have already been erected along the border at Reyhanli town in Hatay province - a main point for smuggling and border-crossing from Syria - the private Dogan news agency said. The fence in Turkey will eventually stretch for 28 miles along a key stretch of its border with Syria.
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Elray good post. Thank you.
Karmirtsaghik I could ask the same question about Clinton, Obama and Sec of State Clinton. These kind of actions are not exclusive to one side or the other. I'm sure there were people who did not agree with George Washington as well and considered some of his actions to be wrong. There are two sides to every pancake.
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To vote for someone who publicly endorses sexism, racism, bigotry, and xenophobia is to vote without integrity. It reveals a lack of wholeness of the person.
I have to ask, what makes you or anyone able to judge or condemn a person for who they vote for?? That generalized statement is about as ignorant as someone who says all black people are thugs. I don't judge, that's God's job. But then again, maybe we have a holier then thou mentality.
This thread is full of judgment and condemnation. To voice one's "opinion" is what's this country's suppose to be about but, labeling and condemning for that opinion doesn't make you any better then the a$$holes out there protesting. Each and everyone of us have the right to vote for who we want. Personally, you just vote for the lesser of 2 evils. As a loyal American, I'm going to wait and see what our President does or doesn't do. Who knows, we might be surprised. I pretty much think that I'm done with this thread.
FH
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This thread is full of judgment and condemnation. To voice one's "opinion" is what's this country's suppose to be about but, labeling and condemning for that opinion doesn't make you any better then the a$$holes out there protesting. Each and everyone of us have the right to vote for who we want. Personally, you just vote for the lesser of 2 evils. As a loyal American, I'm going to wait and see what our President does or doesn't do. Who knows, we might be surprised. I pretty much think that I'm done with this thread.
Couldn't agree more FH!!
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If you are opposed to sexism, bigotry, racism, and xenophobia but vote for someone who in language and action (or inaction) endorses these things -- you are voting without integrity, "wholeness." Your vote doesn't reflect your core values.
Everyone struggles to maintain integrity. I think many people knowingly go against their integrity when they fail to vote for a third-party candidate because they think he/she won't win. That's why I wrote that all humans are flawed and always learning. All of us!
There are not "two sides" to everything. Often there is a very complex issue at stake and the two sides presented are simplistic and limited -- like a two-party majority system. Conversely, sometimes there actually really is a wrong thing to do, which should be universally unacceptable.
There is no such thing as being a loyal American. Some people are loyal to the ideal of what they think America should be and could be; others take oaths but commit treason without consequence. America like any nation or group is just an idea we have agreed to agree upon.
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Just to post names of two famous married people - one Democrat and the other Republican - who seem to be able to stay married and not let their political beliefs get in the way -- James Carville and Mary Matalin
I have personal friends who are on opposite sides of the aisle but don't let that interfere with their relationships. I am assuming that if you love someone, you take them warts and all - even if their warts are political.
I am privy to the real discrimination and intimidation that occurs in the entertainment industry regarding political affiliations. You had better keep your mouth shut if you are a Republican or you might not get to work and will be routinely made to feel like a leper. Now tell me how people who claim to be the party of the all inclusive, without bigotry or racism can behave that way. Their real motto is : our way or the highway. Hence the ridiculous and destructive demonstrations by those very same kind of people. We didn't get our way so we will have a tantrum and burn down little businesses owned by totally innocent people - and don't know or care who they voted for. Personally, I am a little tired of bullies and babies.
Apparently there are now "safe spaces" at colleges for students who were so distraught over the election that they couldn't cope. Really? Wow. Just wait until you get into the real world and find out that there are no "safe spaces" to run and hide in when your feelings are hurt. If you act like a spoiled brat and have tantrums when things don't go your way - don't be surprised if you hear the words "your fired".
The most recent tally of the popular vote indicates that Trump won that also.
Here's a good description of the Electoral College purpose and why it works that was posted elsewhere:
"Getting back to the “win the popular vote/lose the Electoral College” scenario: Thank G-d we have that, or else California and N.Y. would determine every election. Every time.
But the Electoral College brilliantly smooths out the variances in the voting proclivities among states and regions. Farmers in the middle of the country and importers and exporters on the shore get roughly equal say, as do Madison Ave. execs and factory workers in Tennessee.
Shortcomings? Sure. The E.C. can make an R vote meaningless in a very few heavily D states or vice versa. But without the Electoral College, the country’s entire population is subject to the disproportionate voting preferences of the few most populous states."
Whether I liked who was elected or not during my voting lifetime, I have accepted the results and hoped for the best. Trump is the President.
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Why must this country force us to two parties? Do they feel people can't think for themselves? Why are we limited to a two party system? So glad I think for myself!
I call for a change in politics and eliminate the Electoral College. One person should have one vote!
We should ALL be eqaual.
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Elray, interesting points.
Yet I would say I'm not entirely comfortable being in the company of countries such as Kenya, Saudi Arabia, or even Turkey as I have spent time in each. ???
FH "Ride or Die that's how we roll". Now that line made me laugh.
Slow Fade, I too like to shoot and own many guns. But then I come from the land of the red neck as well, just way north of you. I'd go target shooting with you any day.
That all said, I do think Phoenix is correct that voting decisions speak to core values. Obviously many here have different core values.
Personally I am not happy with Trump as President and I was not thrilled with Obama as President although the differences I had with Obama were strictly policy differences while the same cannot be said with Trump. I won't say I would have divorced my h for voting for Trump but neither would I justify his vote or sweep it under the rug. It would have exposed a core values difference in our marriage to me.
Interesting to me is the distancing people do to explain away Trumps words. For example the boys will be boys position but if those words were applied under a normal situation (as opposed to Mlc of our husbands) and Trump grabbed me by the anything part, I dare say with my ex (again prior to mlc crazy) would have seriously and grievously harmed Trump. I imagine the same is true for most of those who voted both for and against Trump. Yet when generalized on to the nameless faceless mass of women its viewed as boys will be boys man talk by many apparently. I suppose it helps make sense of cognitive dissonance.
Americans have a way of believing THIS or THAT could never happen here. Yet for most of us we believed THIS or THAT could never happen in our marriages and it did as we ended up here. I for one won't ever fool myself that way again.
Lp
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I agree that protests should be peaceful and civil, but there are not as many checks and balances as the general public may have believed and that is becoming more clear. If the American public had been asked a month ago, if a white nationalist could be named to a top Whitehouse position and possibly gain top secret security clearance, the vast majority would have said no, due to checks and balances. So while there may not be a need to flee the country or hide in one's house, that doesn't mean the concerns people have are not legitimate or should be discounted. As the saying goes, "Privilege is thinking something is not a problem, because it's not a problem for you personally."
I'm sorry, but my vows said "in sickness and in health, till death do us part" and I don't take them lightly. If adultery did not send me to divorce court then certainly voting for an opposing candidate would not either.
The fact that we are on this site illustrates how seriously we all take our vows. It's why I woudn't partner with a person so fundamentally in opposition to those values, in the first place, and would expect and want the same integrity from him. Neither did anyone say they would divorce over just any "opposing candidate." We are talking about something very specific.
Elray, I'm sorry, but your statement is factually incorrect. Naming a white nationalist to a Whitehouse (sadly ironic term) position is an endorsement of racism. The KKK does not publicly endorse racism either. That doesn't change what they stand for. That is the insidiousness of racism. People who want to be in the mainstream, do not typically ever "endorse" racism as a statement. Racist actions are endorsing racism, however. Racisms is also not about categories such as "soft." That's like being a little bit pregnant. Racists jokes aren't jokes.They are racism. Racist language isn't "PC." It's racism. Are you aware of the issues with Pence in regards to women's rights, reproductive rights and conversion therapy legislation? It's why companies wanted to leave Indiana and people were refusing to visit, and Pence's popularity plummeted until he started walking some of it back. Are you familiar with the cases against Trump for racial housing discrimination? Did you hear the way he speaks about people and their cultures, the recording of how he spoke about women? That is sexist, sexual harassment and he admitted to sexual assault in that recording. Terms are used a lot without people knowing what they mean or what constitutes them, but there are a lot of good resources for learning more if anyone is interested.
Mary Matalin is a great example, Sally Wood. She changed her Republican party affiliation over Trump. That's what I mean. It's not about taking issue over any opposing candidate. It's this one and what he and his team stand for.
The most recent tally of the popular vote indicates that Trump won that also.
Not yet, anyway. This from an hour ago:
"Hillary Clinton’s lead in the popular vote over President-elect Donald Trump has surpassed 1 million, according to Dave Wasserman of the nonpartisan Cook Political Report.
As the final vote counts continue to trickle in a week after Election Day, Wasserman’s tally found that Clinton had 61,963,234 votes to Trump’s 60,961,185 as of Tuesday afternoon."
Phoenix
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Phoenix it depends on where you get the numbers. The site that I visited was collecting all tallies and getting a value that was most likely the closest. But whatever the number - which appears in your post to be very close - the system is what it is and it no longer matters.
In regard to core values - what is thought about JFK screwing Marilyn in the white house or Bill Clinton getting a BJ in the oval office. And let's face it he was a horn dog as Governor. I voted for both of them. In regard to Clinton people were fond of saying "well as long as he doesn't screw the country". Yeah, it was men will be men. I was very disappointed that they couldn't keep their zippers shut while holding the highest office in the land.
In regard to offensive comments - Hillary did not do herself any favors by calling part of the populace that didn't agree with her "deplorables". Sorry but the President is an employee of the people - ALL of the people and is not above us. You don't talk down to somebody and then expect them to vote for you. Sorry doesn't work that way.
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Slow Fade, Elray, others
Please, read my previous posts about Clinton. There is definitely two sides of everything. But thinking that Trump is just middle of the road Republican is wrong. So far his prounoucements have been nothing but extreme. His world view unfortunantely alligns closely with the extremists who he appoints to his cabinet. In fact, if instead of Trump there was some moderate republican, I would have voted for him against Clinton.
Elray, I agree with LP that the countries that build walls on your list are not exactly beacons of democracy, even EU member Hungary under Orban took a big sharp turn towards totalitarianism, including suppression of free press and political freedoms.
Now I will address checks and balances. Congress should act as one of these checks and balances. We have republican majority in both chambers of Congress. So far what we learned about their agenda is distruction, dismantling, eliminating, repealing, everything that has to do with Obama's legacy. We have Paul Ryan who has had serious doubts for a very long while whether he is going or coming, and we have Mitch, who sounds like demolition machine.
Nothing constructive and inspiring came from that instituion for a long time. We know Paul Ryan's world view, especially concerning economic and fiscal policies and wealth distribution. We know that repealing Dobb-Frank and eliminating Consumer Protection Agency is on agenda. In fact, a day after the election there was a rally on the Wall Street, which bankers are saying was just an appetizer. In not so distant past, we the American tax payers were asked to bail Wall Street out. These regulations and agencies were created to safeguard from future fallouts. We also know that they what they are trying to do with Medicaid and Social Security.
Then we have Supreme Court, which thanks to Republican obstructionsm has only 8 members. I do not think that Trump will uphold Garland's nomination. Instead he will nominate someone even further on conservative scale than Scalia was. There goes another check and balance. He already expressed the desire to overturn Roe v. Wade, and uphold Citizens United.
Saying that we have to trust our future with these "checks and balances" and wait and see what Trump is going to do is wrong. Because, guess what? He is already doing it. If you are ok with white suprematists seating in the White house, people like Giulliani and Sarah Pallin in your Government, swasticas in front of our Churches and in the bathrooms of our Elementary Schools, then more power to you. I am not ok with that and like millions of other people planning to exercise my constitutional right to protest, the same way I did at the wake of Iraq war.
We are left to public, grassroots to keep our Government accountable.
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A thoughtful well articulated post, karmirtsaghik.
In regard to core values - what is thought about JFK screwing Marilyn in the white house or Bill Clinton getting a BJ in the oval office. And let's face it he was a horn dog as Governor. I voted for both of them. In regard to Clinton people were fond of saying "well as long as he doesn't screw the country". Yeah, it was men will be men. I was very disappointed that they couldn't keep their zippers shut while holding the highest office in the land.
Agreed. I've not seen anyone suggest otherwise.
In regard to offensive comments - Hillary did not do herself any favors by calling part of the populace that didn't agree with her "deplorables". Sorry but the President is an employee of the people - ALL of the people and is not above us. You don't talk down to somebody and then expect them to vote for you. Sorry doesn't work that way.
That statement was said in a particular context, at a very specific event, and was not about all of Trump's supporters. It was about a portion that scares, and are deplorable, to a good number of people. But rather than belabor the point, Trump and his supporters should heed the same advice. It's why there is such a lack of support for his presidency. His words and actions are disrespectful--even abusive--of large swath's of our nation. He is not being an agent of ALL of us by any means. Hypocrisy in action.
Phoenix
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I think there are a lot of chicken little's running around saying the sky is falling. Personally I will wait and see. There is nothing to protest until there is something to protest. That is why we have checks and balances.
Never, ever would I divorce my husband because we have different views. We have 2 daughters, and I pity the man who messes with them, no way would my husband tolerate it. FROM ANYONE. He doesn't agree with what Trump said, but then he knows how men talk. He hears it all the time in his job.
And some advise now, don't EVER bash my husband because of who he voted for.
If you are opposed to sexism, bigotry, racism, and xenophobia but vote for someone who in language and action (or inaction) endorses these things -- you are voting without integrity, "wholeness." Your vote doesn't reflect your core values.
I also feel that if my H were to have voted for a candidate that said (yes, in public and on tape) the things that Mr Trump espoused, that would be a deal breaker for me. Perhaps some people are in the comfortable position to blow off casual xenophobia, because it does not directly threaten them. I cannot - it disenfranchises me. Perhaps you'd have to wear my skin to know the feeling? I know if your president were to build a wall, my folks would be placed outside of it; if he deported, my folks would be on the tarmac; and even if he only fantasizes about this, it empowers people to hurt (verbally or physically) people who look like me, just for a little vicarious rush of power with impunity. A vote for that package is also a vote that endangers me and mine, even if you don't see the danger (...and why would you? To you, it's just chicken little; to me, it's exclusionary in the most painful way). So this is why our quite different lived experiences may give rise to different reactions to the same bluster.
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Hungary, Kenya, Saudi Arabia and Turkey, what a fourthsome of great examples, Kenya being the least bad of them all, and the one who may have a legitimates reason for a wall . If the US have to copy examples, they should copy good ones,
no bad ones.
Turkey and Saudi Arabia building walls to keep jihadits aweay is a sort of a laugh. They both sponsors jihadits.
If my husband voted Trump (or an Euopean equivalent) that would be cause for irreconcilable differences and divorce.
Karmirtsaghik, please break your post into paragraphs. Otherwise they are hard to read (and I keep to have to edit them from carriages returns). Thank you.
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I take a break from HS for a week and the best thread in years happens, and so up my alley! I'll definitely have to catch up on both threads and jump into what will probably be #3 by that time.
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If you are concerned about wellbeing of innocent people, then please do not vote for a bellicose president. Most of the protesters are holding messages of love, tolerance, and unity and are peacefully exercising a right many have died for.
If you have expeosnced a type of discrimination in a large or small way at the workplace or elsewhere, please draw on that to understand the prejudice and injustice some Americans have had to fight for for generations.
The schools that are providing a safe space for students to talk ARE the real world, just like this forum is a place people can turn to when they need a safe space to feel heard and understood when faced with a poorly understood mental illness.
We should all be grateful to those who are able to envision a better world.
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If you are concerned about wellbeing of innocent people, then please do not vote for a bellicose president. Most of the protesters are holding messages of love, tolerance, and unity and are peacefully exercising a right many have died for.
Velika I agree with you. Most of the people who voted for Trump out of dislike for Hillary are now waking up to a new much tougher reality. And now they are saying:
you see no big deal if we built a wall, see Saudi Arabia and Turkey built one.
deport 2-3 million people,
ban Muslims from entering the US,
a couple of swastikas in front of churches or in school bathrooms did not hurt anybody let police deal with it,
do not protest we have checks and balances,
racism is subject to interpretations,
Trump is our President let us wait and see what he does,
Intimidate and threaten our opponents and then call for piece and tolerance and understanding, no worries
He did not mean what he said, he is going to govern differently,
White supremacist in the White House, no worries.
The list of excuses and rationalization of the votes cast goes on and on. In fact Trump, at the moment has 61% disapproval rating. I.e. that certain percentage of people who voted for him are regretting or at the least are not comfortable with their vote. Voting is a right and very important part for functioning democracy, but It also bears responsibility.
As a descendant of Genocide survivors, I simply cannot agree with any of Trump's rhetoric. I do not take my life and liberties for granted. If Trump continues this way, we should look forward for him to try to overturn Korematsu vs. US, as well, and set the camps.
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I have a feeling this thread will go on and on and on. I invite all to vent! I take issue with a few things someone said on this thread yet realize we all come from different places so their ignorance (the true definition of the word... just not knowing) will get ignored. I also realize this is a site to support each other no matter who we are, what religion we have or don't have or what skin color we have, so I'll leave it alone.
If only this country saw things the way this site does we could make this world a better place :)
On another note, isn't it astounding how Hillary Clinton's votes just keep trickling in?
REPEAL THE ELECTORAL COLLEGE!
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Kudos to the mayor of Minneapolis, Betsy Hodges, who publicly stated that she will not participate in "scapegoat policies" and will remain a sanctuary city unmoved by Trump's threats to cut off federal funding to cities/states who refuse to round up immigrant community members. An increasing number of cities are joining her. When asked if it would impact her city to lose this money, she said, "Of course. It's in the tens of millions, but if we put money before what's right, then we have a far greater problem." She spoke of the racial anxiety Trump worked to appeal to across the nation, and how it had the opposite affect in Minnesota where voters not only went for Clinton, but also elected the first Muslim, Somali American state legisltaor, Ilhan Omar. This act of resistance, and others like it, are what it really means to be American and what this country is about and was built on.
Phoenix
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Hodges is a diamond in the rough.
Proud Minnesotan here, Phoenix. ;)
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Want to also praise someone from Minnesota, Congressman Keith Ellison, who is a black Muslim who threw in his hat for DNC chair.
With all the hatred towards blacks and Muslims, I really hope he wins.
Slow Fade, I come from a place where gun culture is not common at all. Actually all guns are illegal in NYC. There are many other forms of self - protection other than guns. There are a whole lot of angry dangerous misguided Trump voters and others out here and our families need to be protected. We as LBS females especially should explore our options since our MLC men are either gone or not in their right mind now.
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Hungary, Kenya, Saudi Arabia and Turkey, what a fourthsome of great examples, Kenya being the least bad of them all, and the one who may have a legitimates reason for a wall . If the US have to copy examples, they should copy good ones,
no bad ones.
Turkey and Saudi Arabia building walls to keep jihadits aweay is a sort of a laugh. They both sponsors jihadits.
Elray, I agree with LP that the countries that build walls on your list are not exactly beacons of democracy, even EU member Hungary under Orban took a big sharp turn towards totalitarianism, including suppression of free press and political freedoms.
I have to admit trolling you all on this... As I said, 1/3rd of all countries....
Would Sweden Norway and Austria be some "good ones" we could consider "copying"?
Perhaps we can all agree border walls aren't xenophobic, per Se?
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3383612/Sweden-launches-Berlin-Wall-Denmark-desperate-bid-halt-tide-migrant-arrivals-orders-travellers-ID-time-50-years.html
http://www.truthrevolt.org/news/norway-builds-wall-because-migrants
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.express.co.uk/news/world/691905/Austria-plan-build-huge-border-fence-stop-migrants-Schengen-EU-Brussels/amp?client=safari
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I could not imagine being married to somebody who has voted for Trump
I'm sorry, but my vows said "in sickness and in health, till death do us part" and I don't take them lightly. If adultery did not send me to divorce court then certainly voting for an opposing candidate would not either.
[/quote]
Actually, nobody's VOWS contain the command that you or anybody else remain committed to a person who is abusive. Who is a racist, and every other type of ISM out there. In fact, I am wondering if OP is heading into a crisis of his own, along with his future bride! As for Chuck, Sow Fades and Finding Hopes husbands, who are believed to be out of CRISIS or believed be EXITING their crisis... perhaps, you should reconsider that idea?
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Just saying! Taking off the filters, being POLITICALLY INCORRECT! That's ok... right?
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we all come from different places so their ignorance (the true definition of the word... just not knowing)
Just because someone does not agree with you or embrace your political ideology does not make them ignorant. Even if you temper that statement with the "true definition" of "just not knowing", to me it is still an offensive statement. This is the attitude that put Trump in office; too many people being dismissed as "ignorant", "out of touch" "not educated" and not "enlightened."
Actually, nobody's VOWS contain the command that you or anybody else remain committed to a person who is abusive.
I totally agree Stayed, however I do not think that if my husband disagrees with my political viewpoint that that makes him abusive.
It seems that the people who espouse tolerance the most are rather intolerant with people who disagree with them. (and I'm not talking racism or sexism here, I'm just talking normal differences of opinion that don't violate anyone's rights)
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Slow Fade,
Totally agree. Except during the worse of MLC, my husband has NEVER been abusive to me or anyone I know. And even then he never called me names or cursed at me. HE is a good man and his political views don't define him. He voted for Trump knowing how he ran his mouth. What he is hoping for is that he cant be bought, and will do good things for the middle class.
Honestly, Hillary is no peach. She lies and deceives. And works hand in hand with special interest groups. Most politicians do. He's like everyone else that I know is, lets see what he does.
And I have a question, what is more disrespectful to the women here. A politician that runs his mouth or a husband that physical cheats. To me, that would be more disrespectful to me but, they are forgiven.
FH
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Slow Fade, I do believe you missed my point. So much get's lost in context online.
Finding Hope, Welcome to 2016. Bill wasn't on the ticket since the 90's. Hillary is, and she was the victim. If you want to get on Hillary for having a cheating spouse, why are you on this site? We support each other!
I feel that blaming Hillary for Bill's indiscretions isn't right at all. Not then and certainly not now.
Let's not compare Trump's philandering, constant disrespect to women and tons of others to a man that has been out of the White House for 20 - 30 years.
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No filter here... obviously NONE REQUIRED! Political correctness is no longer required. Grace... what is that? Ahhhh right, that's a nice way of saying TURN THE OTHER CHEEK!
Seriously, there should be an IQ test and a psychological profile done before people be allowed to vote. Being cheated on and having a president that represents me and my country... PLEASE... no comparison. Donald Trump showed that he could FOOL and MANIPULATE 25.6 of you into voting for him.
Yes people... less then 26% of the United States of America voted for that piece of $hit you now call President elect Trump. That mean's 74% either don't care or don't want him.
Finding Hope... your h must be a closet "ism" or he would not have voted for Trump, no matter what he thought he MIGHT do. The guy never once said WHAT HE WOULD DO... so your h voted on SPECULATION!
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One thing I will agree with is their is massive amounts of LIES going around the MSM and the politicians.
SO much fakeness and lies that no one really knows the truth.
I see lies on both sides and everyone is so convinced that they are telling the truth.
I certainly understand why everyone is sick about all of this.
You can only be lied to so many times.
I believe that the 26% that voted for Trump felt that they would give him a chance
to try something different and the 26% that voted for Hillary are convinced that he is
a rotten no good scoundrel.
More politics and lies.
I think that it is all horrible and wonder how do we really find out the TRUTH.
I do think that some things need to change.
And I am not happy that the entire country is at each others throats.
That is so wrong.
Watch two opposing news channels or two different newspapers and you get totally different stories.
Everyone spinning everything all around.
One thing I do know is that Trump won the electoral college vote.
They claim that their polling and data knew this before the election.
The MSM still is not accepting that they got it wrong.
What does that prove? Likely nothing.
But I just dont get all the lies, and I believe we are still being lied too.
Because their lips are moving.
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Elegance,
No where did I say anything about Hillary and her cheating husband. I'm sorry but wasn't it her under investigation with the FBI for her emails. Didn't she have a hand in the Benghazi debacle??? Where did I say anything about her or her cheating husband. And by the way, I voted for Hillary.
Stayed, I love you but you know nothing about my husband so please don't presume that you do. The comparison between Trump and cheating husbands was, everyone thinks that Trump degrades women and he does. But is a husband who takes another woman to his bed, knowing that he's married degrading his wife??? That was my point.
FH
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New thread
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=8414.0