Midlife Crisis: Support for Left Behind Spouses
Archives => Archived Topics => Topic started by: bvFTD on September 09, 2017, 06:12:18 PM
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HopeEndures:
There is no such thing as a "Midlife Crisis," but members on this site will tell you otherwise.
However, there is a common but under-recognized brain disorder called frontotemporal dementia that tends to strike people in their 40s to 60s that blows up a perfect family and their happy little world that is wrongly called "midlife crisis" or marital breakdown, or misdiagnosed as depression, stress, anxiety, OCD, ADHD, NPD, late-onset bipolar disorder, schizophrenia or even alcoholism/drug-addiction because of the tendency for some people with the disorder to self medicate.
First sign is turning away from their true love since empathy, emotions, morals and inhibitions are first destroyed in this type of dementia, not memory!
Read up on this horrific disease then decide whether you should take your spouse to a neurologist.
I find it worrisome that people on this site accept family breakdown, bankruptcy, destruction of credit, foreclosure, disruption and trauma and then try to gracefully guide others through it. Why aren't you balking?
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Hello Hopeendures and welcome to Heros Spouse.
Many of us come here after searching for some possible reason for the behavior of our spouses, and we come across the term mid-life crisis and for the first time we are able to breath...because of the similarities in the "symptoms".
There are many resources to help you to understand what MLC is about. Please start your study by looking at the articles that have been written by RCR.
http://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/site-map.html
http://loveanyway.theherosspouse.com/midlife-crisis-and-infidelity/midlife-crisis-resources-at-the-heros-spouse/
RCR's articles are well researched and will help you to make a decision about whether you think your husband has a MLC as well as give you resources of how you can take care of yourself and your family.
There is no specific "test" to determine if our spouses have MLC and many theories about what may be causing this sudden change in their behavior. My BD was 8 years ago and after many years of researching MLC, I believe that it is a perfect storm of many factors, biochemical, developmental, emotional, spiritual.
Our spouse have been chasing their demons for a great part of their life and they reach a saturation point where they literally throw everything away that was once important to them.
No matter what the cause, you need to take care of yourself, especially your financial safety and physical health. You may wish to discuss with your doctor, the need to be tested for STD's if he has been having sex with others.
I am sorry you are here but you will survive this. There will be others along soon to give their views.
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xyzcf:
You said there are no "tests" to determine whether someone has "midlife crisis." Okay. But there are tests to diagnose ftd.
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Dear Hopeendures,
I'm very sorry you've been hurt so badly. No one here can know what your husband's particular situation is (mental health or physical health or bad behavior having nothing to do with the first two). And we can't make another adult go to the doctor or receive tests he doesn't want to get. Only you know your entire experience and what those facts and your gut are telling you and what the best approach is for you.
There are a number of mental and physical health issues that can cause or contribute to the behaviors we discuss on this site. Not all cases would fall into the realm of MLC and not all will fall into the realm of Frontotemporal Lobe dementia. I've been assisting a friend with this disorder for several years including accompanying her to specialist appointments. FTD is the most common form of dementia in people under age 60, but since dementia is not generally that common under 60, this is not an overall common disease. And, while some of the symptoms of
FTD can start out similar to a number of other issues, the disease does not progress like MLC. Instead physical issues tend to increase, including muscle weakness and coordination issues, problems chewing and swallowing, with bladder control and bowels, and sufferers may end up in a wheelchair.
I'm a third generation LBS. None of the male MLCers were related so it isn't something hereditary through my family. The symptoms and actions were as described on this site, but none of the men had any other signs of FTD disease, and never developed any. They all eventually admitted the mistakes they made though it was too late to save their marriages.
There are many theories and beliefs about MLC but, from my experience and research, MLC may is a combination of factors, coming to a head in midlife. MLC is thought to be the mother of all depressions and the factors that contribute to that could be hormonal (thus more common in a certain age bracket), genetic, situational, etc. In my H's case, it was likely a perfect storm between a family history of alcoholism, midlife depression, fear of mortality after his father died and his friend was diagnosed with a terminal illness, and his life-long coping mechanisms of compartmentalizing, avoiding, distracting and self-medicating. I have spoken to a number of reputable doctors over the years who absolutely believe MLC exists and at least two who experienced it first hand and ultimately came through it with professional help.
Each person's situation is unique and combines a number of factors. We can't know what the cause of your husband's issues are and you can't force him to do anything. You can only control your own behavior and reactions. I never recommend standing in cases of domestic and/or child abuse and, not every cheater is in midlife crisis. It's also possible your husband is a serial cheater and is not going to change.
It is not easy to stare the facts of our life in the face and see the truth there, but I do believe that most of us have a gut instinct or a "knowing" if we look at our situation with complete honesty and without rose colored glasses. When you are ready, you will know the truth, what is best for you, and what you need to do to protect yourself and your economic security. The most important thing is for you to KNOW YOUR WORTH and accept no less.
I wish you peace and clarity on your journey,
Phoenix
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First sign is turning away from their true love since empathy, emotions, morals and inhibitions are first destroyed in this type of dementia, not memory!
This is the first sign of any kind of mental illness.
Memory loss is very common in MLC and early onset Alzheimers as well as many other mental disorders.
The point of this forum bvFTD is to help people help themselves as they go through whatever crisis they face.
At no point are we ever able to confirm at a diagnostic level that any of these conditions are MLC but we are able owing to the many many many similarities on here that there are common symptoms across all the spouses and that only time sadly will tell whether it is a fully blown crisis or another form of mental illness The articles are helpful in understanding that the LBS is not to blame for the spouse's problems. The articles focus naturally on MLC because that is what this forum is about.
However and much more importantly the articles and support on here are about the LBS developing and focussing on their own needs, about looking after children or family when crisis (whatever it is) strikes, about helping the LBS help themselves get back on track and able to face the world.
I fully accept and you have promoted over your posts that FTD exists and frankly most of us would welcome a medical diagnosis instead of having to face the inexplicable and often totally unacceptable behaviour that some spouses display that ultimately seem to have no medical symptoms.
However most of the (MLC) spouses on here do come through the crisis and do not display any later or significant confirmed medical symptoms such as Phoenix lists so perhaps HE's spouse has other issues.
As Hope Endures' husband also demonstrates symptoms of being a serial cheater - is it not possible that he is just a serial cheater demonstrating symptoms which are discussed on here? In which case I doubt highly that HE would even be able to get her H to a neurologist. Most people who believe that others are to blame are highly unlikely to willingly get "tested"
bvFTD If you believe that there is no such thing as MLC then that is completely your preogative. All differing views are welcome on here.
I have to say though that I am personally intrigued as to why you remain on this forum if you do not believe in the concept of MLC. Your posts written in August seem to suggest that you are done with this forum.
This thread is for HE to tell her story and to seek help and guidance on her feelings and progress.
Perhaps you would like to start a discussion thread on FTD so that members can choose to read or comment and gain understanding and knowledge of this fatal disease.
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bvFTD-Yes, MLC is not recognized as a disease. But neither were most diseases at one time. MLC may not have a known cause, but so did most diseases at one time. If we all went around spouting off without any regard for scientific method as you do, we'd have a lot more people dead from AIDS in the world and we'd be saying that it didn't exist, for example.
There is a saying, "The absence of evidence is not evidence of absence." The fact is, there are ZERO studies on MLC to determine whether it exists or not. There is much research on many of the symptoms of MLC though that are a useful starting point for those of us whose spouses have a common cluster of symptoms.
Are you that dense to not understand that our spouses may have a disease that is actually similar to your husband's but different in its nature and causes?
May I suggest, bvFTD, that you might find better support in a forum devoted to your husband's disease? Try this:
https://www.ftdsupportforum.com/
HE, your husband may or may not be having an MLC, but I agree with the poster that says your husband has a habit of cheating on you. Unless the first incident of it was an MLC that was cut short and never resolved. Otherwise, I would say MLC or not, it may be a case of a leopard being unable to change its spots.
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Hi Hope,
I'm sorry you are going through this.
It's very possible your H is going through a MLC, but even if he is just a serial cheater the advice on this site can still be applied.
Please read as much as you can. The articles are wonderful and will help you feel you are not alone and also give you some insight into how he is thinking and/or why he is doing what he is doing.
A MLC takes a long time to recover from, so try the best you can to detach from him.
This is a site for Midlife Crisis information. Not a site about FTD.
Don't let anyone confuse you, Hope.
Keep posting and sharing your story. There is always someone around to support you.
Big Hug
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Re: Is this mlc? Having a rough time..
« Reply #7 on: Today at 07:41:04 PM »
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LotsofHope:
First off, do not try to keep yourself busy when you are traumatized and in despair. You may be in shock. Once you've recovered read up on frontotemporal dementia, a common type of disorder that tends to strike people in their 40s to 60s.
Your husband is of the age.
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Old Pilot:
The best support, and the most comfort your site can offer, is to alert traumatized people who stumble on here that their spouse, soulmate and best friend of however many decades could be seriously ill.
I read a thread here that asked why "Midlife Crisis" wasn't medically recognized. It is! But it has a different name, and once a mass, stroke and psychiatric disorders are ruled out, we have ftd.
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Is it possible that MLC could be something as simple as a person realizing they are getting older and having lots of regrets? Could it be that the person was stuck emotionally in childhood because of an event and midlife triggers it because it is a transition from young to old age?
Why does it have to be a medical problem?
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Old Pilot:
The best support, and the most comfort your site can offer, is to alert traumatized people who stumble on here that their spouse, soulmate and best friend of however many decades could be seriously ill.
I read a thread here that asked why "Midlife Crisis" wasn't medically recognized. It is! But it has a different name, and once a mass, stroke and psychiatric disorders are ruled out, we have ftd.
Yes, once other disorders are ruled out...Well I just reviewed this criteria and I can tell you my husband does NOT have bvMLC according to the internationally accepted standard:
http://202efj2j1feo1vhg033du05m.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/Table-3-International-consensus-criteria-for-behavioural-variant-FTD.pdf
I also suggest you read the exclusion criteria at the bottom and note that behavioral disturbances better explained by psychiatric diagnosis must be ruled out first. My husband's behavior much more closely matches descriptions of male depression and/or complex PTSD than it does bvFTD. I think that would be true of the vast majority of the spouses on here. In fact, many of them do have other psychiatric diagnoses.
If our spouses have not had other problems ruled out then what makes it your business coming here telling us they need to be checked for bvFTD before all the other conditions that likely much more match their behavior?
Midlife crisis may not be a medical diagnosis in and of itself, but that does not mean if our spouses were diagnosed with something that it would actually be bvFTD. There are plenty of other conditions that are far more prevalent and likely that need to be ruled out first.
I'm just going to take CPTSD as an example. Here's the proposed criteria for it: http://traumadissociation.com/complexptsd
My husband sadly meets this criteria to a T.
The definition of dementia according to the Alzheimer's association is as follows: "Dementia is a general term for a decline in mental ability severe enough to interfere with daily life." I don't see people coming on here and complaining that their spouses can't function in daily life.
I think the problem bvFTD is that you have been reading sites like the Daily Mail etc. where they say bvFTD is often confused with "midlife crisis." I think what they are talking about here in the news is the stereotype of "midlife crisis" that the general public has, not the one that we talk about here on the site. These are very different things.
Anyway, I am not sure the point of engaging with you on this. You seem to have donkey blinders on and can only see one disease, bvFTD, to the exclusion of all other possibilities.
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"Is it possible that MLC could be something as simple as a person realizing they are getting older and having lots of regrets? Could it be that the person was stuck emotionally in childhood because of an event and midlife triggers it because it is a transition from young to old age?"
Of course it is, Northern.
I would say that is probably the majority of the MLCer's on this site.
My H's crisis was more hormonal and about a fear of aging, but he's pretty much back to his old self now....but it took him a few years.
No mental illness, just a midlife crisis.
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I would love to know about this. Keep posting, if it helps anyone here... Most people will not welcome this, but it's a good thing to post about. I don't think that everyone's spouse on the forum is suffering from MLC. I do believe that there are a few, not many, that have exit affair spouses, not MLCers.
All avenues should be explored for one reason and one only: if there are some in need of medical care, better safe than sorry. It's like finding out you have cancer after it metastasizes, it's too late.
I'm not sure if MLC is a mental illness, or just them snapping out. Having said this, I'm going to be attaching to see what other information you can provide.
Don't let anyone deter you from posting, someone here may find out that this is indeed the case for their spouse. We are all voicing our opinions, some are welcome, and some will be to threatening. Either way, it's a good way to find out where people's heads are.
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I agree, but let's keep it to this discussion thread, so if people want to read about it or have questions they can ask here, if not they can skip it just like any other discussion thread that doesn't pertain to them.
Discussion threads can be very useful.
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Absolutely fabulous
bvFTD has another thread with information about this disease. You can find it at:
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=9256.msg606280#msg606280
There are also many threads that have researched biochemical and neurotransmitters causes:
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=1786.0
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=6315.0
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=7709.0
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=8607.0
and also:
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=1522.0
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=3669.0
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I would love to know about this. Keep posting, if it helps anyone here... Most people will not welcome this, but it's a good thing to post about. I don't think that everyone's spouse on the forum is suffering from MLC. I do believe that there are a few, not many, that have exit affair spouses, not MLCers.
All avenues should be explored for one reason and one only: if there are some in need of medical care, better safe than sorry. It's like finding out you have cancer after it metastasizes, it's too late.
I'm not sure if MLC is a mental illness, or just them snapping out. Having said this, I'm going to be attaching to see what other information you can provide.
Don't let anyone deter you from posting, someone here may find out that this is indeed the case for their spouse. We are all voicing our opinions, some are welcome, and some will be to threatening. Either way, it's a good way to find out where people's heads are.
I agree 100 percent.
There is no reason at all to discourage people from pursuing any and all avenue of inquiry. What if each and every one of us found our spouse doesn't have bvFTD following exhaustive medical testing? Wonderful! But I have started threads on demonic possession and gut health and no one told me to go away from this forum, find a forum for people whose spouse have actually been confirmed to have been possessed by the devil.
bvFTD is generously sharing her experience. My sister just accepted a position researching FTD at a respected lab and guess what! She is very interested in pursuing FTD and possibly overlap with MLC. And this is thanks to what I have shared of my own experiences with MLC, what I have told her I have learned on this forum, and what I have shared to her that bvFTD has posted here.
People who are writing that bvFTD always progresses quickly or leads to sudden and obvious losses are incorrect. A New York Times article noted that half of all cases present atypically. Some suspects bvFTD patients have normal scans.
I mentioned this on another thread on this topic, but I called UCSF bvFTD research center. To my surprise they were extremely receptive to my call, validated my concerns, and offered experienced support in ways to encourage my FH to be screened. The woman I spoke with echoed much of what is mentioned on this forum. I wished I had called right away, to be honest, when my FH seemed to have more clarity and so I could have possibly enlisted the help of his family and mine, before he did so much damage.
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But in all fairness Velika, you did not say there was no such thing as MLC, you were just giving a point of view to discuss.
It was welcomed by many people and they joined it.
That's what discussion groups are for. Idea's, questions, sharing. Not absolutes.
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But in all fairness Velika, you did not say there was no such thing as MLC, you were just giving a point of view to discuss.
It was welcomed by many people and they joined it.
That's what discussion groups are for. Idea's, questions, sharing. Not absolutes.
Yes! We agree.☺️
I don't mind if someone says MLC doesn't exist. If I truly believe it exists then this doesn't do anything to change my belief.
For what it is worth, I think pursuing line of inquiry into bvFTD is actually a possible avenue into understanding what MLC as a unique syndrome could be. Since it appears bvFTD phenotype has a lot in common with MLC, this would be interesting to explore. Sadly, there are not MLC research centers around the country, but I imagine FTD research centers do see people who have a similar syndrome that either doesn't progress or that people recover from.
All to say -- bvFTD researchers and amateur researchers are our allies whether our spouses have this or another condition affecting similar region of the brain. (Or even whether they don't have this at all, just in the way that cancer and heart disease researches and firemen and EMTs are also everyone's ally.)
When I called UCSF I was told, as bvFTD mentioned in another thread, this is poorly understood and underdiagnosed condition, in no small part because people who have it lose their own self awareness and do not believe they are ill. She told me, like bvFTD wrote, that most research on dementia has gone into Alzheimer's, so people are often unaware that someone can have dementia that affects personality and behavior this way -- and at this age.
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LBS:
People do not change suddenly in midlife. They do not turn into sociopaths, narcissists or monsters, blow up their beautiful little worlds they've built for 2 or 3 decades unless something is terribly wrong with the BRAIN.
Your site is wonderfully supportive to people who stumble on here in pain, shock and in trauma because you provide immediate support and comfort, which is so very helpful and admirable.
But you must know that the most relief you can provide is a REASON for a bomb wiping out the family. Please tell people who come onto your site to rule out frontotemporal dementia or a slow-growing tumor in the frontal lobe or tiny strokes before delving into childhood issues that didn't seem to interfere with your beautiful marriages of decades before (however; familial ftd would have definitely wreaked havoc in their past).
You probably know where I am going. Get your spouse diagnosed to help us find the cure before one of your children is afflicted later. My husband's ftd is sporadic. But 30% to 40% are not.
bv
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Hello bvFTD,
I have merged your new thread with the old one. Each poster needs to keep a thread going for 150 posts.
I disagree totally with your idea that MLC does not exist.
As we have repeatedly said, there are many many "causes" that potentially could mimic MLC but there is absolutely NO DOUBT in my mind that MLC does exist and that the vast majority of the people who post here are dealing with that and not a pathological condition.
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Here we go again. No, people do not turn into sociopaths or narcissists in midlife. Those are personality disorder and they do not show out of the blue in midlife, they show much early in life and the LBS would had noticed them years before BD.
People do turn into monsters in midlife when in MLC.
The reason is MLC.
You don't seem to undertand that most of our spouses do not have FTD nor is their problem/behaviour because of tiny strokes. And, anyway, how exactly would we get out spouses diagnosed for whatever since they refuse to see a doctor and run away? I think you don't understand MLC and keep trying to tell us our spouses have something much more serious and irreversible. They don't, they are having a MLC.
A small growing tumour growing in the frontal lobe? If that was the cause, most, if not all, of our MLCers would be dead by now.
You don't manage to explain why, since FTD is degenerative and irriversible, most MLCer come out of MLC, therefore their condition reverses, and even those who do not, do not degenerate, they just remain in replay, exactly the same way they were when they entered replay.
Please stop scaring people and telling them to diagnose their spouses for conditions they do not have. Even because it is totally impossible to have a MLCer diagnosed.
bvFTD, HS is for people with a spouse in MLC, not with FTD or other serious, degenerative/deadly neurologic conditions. Please try to undertand that and realise you and the rest of us are not dealing with the same thing.
MLC does exist. But, if you do not believe it does, what are you doing on a site aimed at the spouses of people with MLC?
You do rub me the wrong way with our constant insistence that we are all wrong and our spouses are not having a MLC, but something neuro-degerenative.
I will ask you again, if MCLer are having FTD, a brain tumour of some sort, or any other irriversible and degenerative disease, how come they get back to normal once their crisis is over? Because degenerative does not allow reverse.
Your argument lacks logic on the face of what we know about MLC, be it from personal experience - like others here I've had a MLC, and like the rest of HS members that have had a MLC I do not suffer from FTD a brain tumour or suffered tiny strokes -, be it from the stories of those here that are reconnecting or reconciled with their MLCer that has got back to normal, be it from real life stories we know of.
The one thing you are right about our spouses is that something is wrong with their brain, but not for the reasons who name. It has to do with depression. Depression seriously affects the brain and behaviour. Think about post-partum depression and how crazy some women get, to the point of wanting to kill their children.
Another thing that alters people behaviour in midlife are hormones.
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Keep posting. We all get offended at times, and eventually, we get over it.
There are people on this forum that don't agree, that's why it's called a forum. There are therapists, psychologist and others who work in Neurosciences that will tell you that MLC doesn't exist. And they have the degrees and the research to back up their claim.
The truth is, we don't really know what causes this. Keep posting, they don't speak for all of us.
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Some of us - myself included - have taken neurosience and genetics courses. We also have threads on neuroscience, where many issues on the subject are discussed.
I am not offended, I just find it irresponsible to keep insisting our spouses have a degenerative disease, because I have knowledge of neuroscience and now that - for now - degenerative diseases are not reversible. The word degenerative is self explanatory, isn't it?
Why do those of you that think MLC may be, or is, a degenerative disease, when asked over and over and over again, cannot explain MLCers getting back to normal once the crisis is over?
What is so hard to understand in: degenerative diseases are not reversible? People with ddegenerative diseased do not go back to normal. MLCers do.
Yes, there are therapists, psychologist and others who work in neurosciences that will tell you that MLC does not exist. Others call it something else. But all of them will tell you that someone with a degenerative disease does not go back to normal. The degneration just keeps getting worst.
We don't know for certain what causes this, for me, it is extreme stress that leads to depression. But we know MLCer get out of crisis and people with FTD, or Alzeimer's, or any other degenerative brain disease do not.
Absolutely Fabulous, if you also don't believe in MLC, why are you here?
I wonder what people that do not believe in MLC are doing in HS. It would be like not believing in cancer and be on a forum for spouses, relatives and friends of cancer patients. It is illogic.
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Thank you, xyzcf, I agree with you.
I personally believe a midlife crisis is just an identity crisis that just seems to hit some people in their midlife years. It is not something that is life threatening and it is not a disease.
Like RCR says it is a type of depression that the MLCer will either deal with and work their way out of or they won't.
We can not fix this for them...or love them out of it.
There is no research done on MLC because there are no studies done with volunteers. All studies need some volunteers to question, don't they??
No MLCer's think they have a problem...nothing is wrong with them. So where do they find these volunteers to do a study on??
So who can they study? The hear say of the left behind spouse who sees there is something terribly wrong with their wife or husband? The families who are destroyed by the actions of these MLCer's?
How do you get any data to back up this crisis?
It's nearly impossible.
If it makes you feel better to label their crisis as some horrific disease that has no curse then good for you. You have an answer to why they left you and found someone else.
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Please tell people who come onto your site to rule out frontotemporal dementia or a slow-growing tumor in the frontal lobe or tiny strokes before delving into childhood issues that didn't seem to interfere with your beautiful marriages of decades before (however; familial ftd would have definitely wreaked havoc in their past).
Hmm, well, you see, when we were first married, my husband actually blamed his father's childhood abuse of him (some of which really can be called torture) for some of his seemingly odd behavior in our marriage at the time. He managed to overcome it with time, and many years, and then 16 years later basically fell off the wagon and got much much worse than he ever was before. This happened when we moved back to his hometown and moved in with his mother. When he and I manage to get some time alone together, he's maybe 80% like he was pre-BD. But when we are around his mother and others, he loses it and becomes a monster. There are environmental factors driving it. If it were bvFTD, there would not be this clear delineation in his behavior from hour to hour depending on who was around. Sorry, but there is every reason for me to believe his awful childhood during which he was never ever happy has contributed to this. And while he may have gotten worse since last year, looking back I can see there were precursors for this throughout our marriage.
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After his wedding this last weekend Im starting to wonder if its MLC or some degenerative disease of the brain. :-\
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If it makes you feel better to label their crisis as some horrific disease that has no curse then good for you. You have an answer to why they left you and found someone else.
Exactly - because it stops you from looking inward to see how you can improve or develop. It also stops you from being prepared to use time as a gift.
I fully believe in MLC and whilst I accept that FTD is a clinical degenerative disease it is VERY VERY clear that my H is coming out of the tunnel and beginning to reconnect and seek the marriage. He does not have FTD - and yet he monstered dreadfully, his personality changed out of all recognition, he became the complete antithesis of everything he once held dear - an OW, expensive purchases, neglecting and physically assaulting his son, reducing me to tears on a daily basis etc...
If he had FTD - I would have seen some degeneration in his bodily and mental functions over the last 4.5 years. I haven't and I am confident when I can trace the denial phase of his depression back to 2006 and there has been no physical or mental degeneration since then either. That was when the erratic purchases started and the desire to be alone.
So - how do you explain that BVFTD - if my H does not have FTD and you don't believe in MLC - what does my H have?
What do all the spouses who have come through the tunnel and have reconciled or have a productive relationship with the LBSers even if not married have then? Please name this.
If you can't name what is happening because you do not believe in MLC then allow those who are new to the forum to make their own conclusions. By all means bring it to their attention but please do not dismiss MLC out of hand to them simply because you don't believe it.
This is a forum where all is and should be discussed but I urge you to consider how you welcome new people to this forum. People who are scared and hurting because their world is turned upside down and people whose spouses have just abandoned them ( I am intrigued how you think that these particular spouses will voluntarily go for testing) are on here and they seek support, warmth and a sense of understanding how they are feeling.
They may well have a spouse who could be a medical case such as FTD or any other but the advice that is the core of this forum on how to deal with such a dramatic change in their lives is still very much relevant and helpful. Telling them in the first response on a forum specifically set up for MLC, that MLC does not exist and that their spouse needs testing for a specific condition is a little scary and upsetting for them. They have come here because they need help on how to help themselves in their current situation. They need time and space to absorb all possibilities medical or otherwise not to be scared off.
Thunder is right - there is no actual scientific data but what there is are over 3000+ stories on this forum alone which have incredibly common strands and elements of their spouses behaviour, words and actions. 3000+cases of FTD - I think not. 3000+ cases of MLC - far more likely.
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Thunder is right - there is no actual scientific data but what there is are over 3000 stories on this forum alone which have incredibly common strands and elements of their spouses behaviour, words and actions. 3000 cases of FTD - I think not. 3000 cases of MLC - far more likely.
100% agreed. It would be very possible to use these stories in descriptive research as data - as in many other behavioral science area which lacks possibility for 'hard research' as RCT based research.
One can't define MLC or any other behavioral based phenomena exist or not trough the fact if it is or is not diagnozible by medical research criteria.
We can say it is not at least yet a diagnosable disease, that's all.
What you CAN diagnose if you want to is overt depression in MLC, I could easily say (reading these stories and according to my own) that most of MLCers probably would get rather high points e.g. in BDI which is probably most worldwide spread and accepted screening method for depression. Same conclusion would come with PHQ screen or some other one...But that's a different story.
This is a problem today: we are so into evidence based medicine (which is mostly good thing) that it has become almost a religion: if something hasn't been researched with hard, quantitative methods, it does not exist. If something HAS been researched, it will become gospel truth and is seen as black and white. I have seen many misunderstandings and wrong medical diagnozes b/c of this in my work career - talking about psychic diseases.
Reading MLC related literature, there is more evidence of it existing than not IMO.
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I will not pretend to know all there is to know about FTD, I am not a doctor or a researcher.
I know what I see.
My h. does not have FTD. Even if I suspected, I would not be able to get him to a doctor for testing ;D
He has FOO issues, he has done some pretty bad things to me and his children due to to his inner wounding. I am sure he has a lot of internal turmoil.
For me, this is a severe identity crisis. It is a CRISIS, therefore the extreme behavior we see.
In the almost seven years I have observed this, he has not gotten worse to the point of dysfunction and I would say that he is beginning to settle down a little. His relationship with the children is good although changed, I think he would probably have a good relationship with me if I accepted the OW :P
I have said before - my son had a tumor (a large one) in his right frontotemporal lobe diagnosed at the age of 13, it did not cause behavioral alterations. It was removed surgically (most of it) and then treated with chemo and radiation to the whole CNS. My son is sweet tempered, affectionate, superior intelligence, a little given to depression, maybe... However this is probably because of all that happened to him not so much the tumor itself. Depression could also be a family trait, both of his grandfathers were depressive.
My h. does not have a tumor either. The signs of a brain tumor are different.
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My h. does not have a tumor either. The signs of a brain tumor are different.
But..but...it was on the internet, Mitz! It must be true!! ;D ;)
Pyroluria or Pyrrole Disorder was my bvFTD. It was several years into researching my xH's condition that another lbs (kikki - I don't think she'd mind if I called her out!) and I found this one. Felt like we hit pay dirt! Short version is that it's a chronic B6 and Zinc deficiency that is believed to possibly be the underlying cause of a slew of serious things in some people, from mood disorders like schizophrenia and bipolar, to personality disorders like narcissistic, histrionic, and borderline, to propensities for blood clots, kidney stones, alcoholism, diverticulitis. ADHD, anxiety, hormone imbalance, and depression are in there too. It had reddening of the skin and shark eyes and all of the usual suspects as traits to look for, and tends to be more prevalent in people of European descent, particularly Irish, and you'll see a lot of family history of these things.
My xH ticked off perfectly! And at the tipping point around 2008/2009 was when we were supplementing with B vitamins less to save money, and he suddenly came down with yet another kidney stone/diverticulitis combo, then the big depression, then the bipolar diagnosis. So it really did seem to fit!
There's a split in the medical community as to whether Pyroluria is a thing. There's research behind it, and some will treat it. Others think it's mumbo jumbo and would rather treat the disorders it causes individually. There are a bunch of Pyroluria gurus who started clinics that will mail you expensive urine tests for your surly teens or affected spouse, and you can easily blame it for all of your life's ills once they get you on a personalized protocol of *their* proprietary supplements and your problems are solved. Facebook is full of groups of panicked people comparing their test results and criticizing each other's protocols.
I took it that the under-acceptance of this disorder was clearly why it was allowing so many misdiagnoses - that if only more people would go straight to their doctors and demand a test, the medical community would have to accept that this was probably the reason most of the western world was losing their minds! My temptation was very much to cram it down the collective HS throat because clearly this is what was wrong with most, if not all, of spouses talked about here. Something so simple as a deficiency gone extreme would be easy to fix with the right tools and support! Yay! I solved MLC! ;D ;D ;D If you go into some of the biology threads, you can probably pinpoint the era I really did try to get everyone on board.
But the truth is, reading something on the internet and pinning symptoms (I perceive, not experience - this is a huge part of why we're not the best gauges for anything other than our own experiences with this) together does NOT make me a medical professional or anything other than an advocate for "Do what you can." Only my xH knows what he is experiencing, and only a professional he seeks out can surmise what to do with that. An oncologist (who was my xH's primary at the time), a psychiatrist, and a therapist all saw him for a period of months in the thick of this, as well as other medical professionals he went to after he left me. Absolutely none have treated him for Pyroluria, have suspected bvFTD (that I know of) or anything other than the anxiety and bipolar disorders he was diagnosed with. The passion I had for discovering a cause may be more intense, and it certainly gave me a level of control back that I was seeking (as I said on Albatross's thread the other day, there's a hint of the "bargaining stage" of grief in it, in hindsight). But their educated opinions win. Heck, now I'd be more inclined to say he's just a narcissist, and I can see elements of that throughout the rollercoaster ride of our relationship! But that's just because I've exposed myself to a lot of Narc Abuse content in order to heal, so what I expose myself to has an influence. THAT is also something to watch for - even when it's this forum that's dictating some of your thoughts.
So sure, if you can get your spouse to ask their doctor about this, or if your spouse wants your help as an advocate and you are able to get a test approved for this (because a doctor can also shut it down if they choose - they don't have to order it just because you request it), do it to set your mind at ease. But if you're freaking out because people are scaring you more than you're already terrified from the fallout of this stuff, breathe. You STILL didn't cause it (whatever "it" is), and you STILL can't cure it.
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There are therapists, psychologist and others who work in Neurosciences that will tell you that MLC doesn't exist. And they have the degrees and the research to back up their claim
And we have what they don't....personal experience. Science isn't always the answer.
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Anjae, I shouldn't even dignify this with an answer, but...
I didn't say I didn't believe in it. I stated a fact, that there are those in the medical field that will tell you bluntly it doesn't exist, period. What I stated was, we don't really know what it is. Read the book, "Mindset" by Dr. Carol Dweck and work on that fixed mindset of yours.
Slow, In case you have forgotten I've been on this forum for a few years as well. I just welcome other possibilities to explore. I'm just tired of the same people deciding that they're right on the forum and others are wrong. It's becoming a very closed minded forum.
Having said this, there must be something to this on BOTH sides. It may be a brain disorder for some, an emotional disorder for others, a chemical disorder, etc... No one knows for sure. The only thing anyone does know is that it's happening. That we can all agree on. It's all conjecture at best.
Why someone gets attacked for not conforming to the spouse is beyond me. God forbid this information actually help someone. There's even a study Neuroplasticity that states that the brain is not hardwired, and can be changed. It's all debatable. The last time I checked this was a debatable subject. I for one welcome any type of research, it helps to explain some things, but not all.
Let's all be honest for just a sec, not everyone here has a MLC spouse, and many will find out that that's not the case. If you're still holding on after so many years, and they don't come back? This may be a permanent end to your marriage. For some here, this is something that they will have to accept.
Even RCR has stated that the chances of the MLCer coming back are slim. Other sites say the same thing. This site is to help people sort out what is going on in their situations. If that offends some of you, then maybe you've lost your objectivity. Everyone came here for answers, you may not agree with what their posts say or ask, but there are valid points being made in every case.
If it is Dementia, then that would a good thing. Where there is disease there is a possibility for a cure. Not one person has stopped and thought about that. I don't know what it is, I just know that it's happening. It can't be ignored, and every avenue is a least one step closer to the answer that someone is looking for. There is no test, and every case is different. The similarities are only line in the general behaviors and attitudes, not the specifics. That's where all of the debates come in.
The need for some to be right on this forum seems to have clouded some people's objectivity and judgment. Just an observation.
By the way, I have friends who work for NIH ( National Institutes for Health ), 3000 is not a large number in the grand scheme of things for research. The conflicting web hits on Google concerning this subject alone are mindbogglingly high.
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Absolutely fabulous:
The need for some to be right on this forum seems to have clouded some people's objectivity and judgment. Just an observation.
If you look at the top of this page in bright purple it reads:
The Hero's Spouse. Dealing with Midlife Crisis and Infidelity When You Don't Want a Divorce.
There are several threads where people have written about many potential causes for mid life crisis. We are very interested in looking for what caused this tragedy to destroy our families.
What is not helpful, IMHO is when a poster states emphatically that Mid Life Crisis does not exist and implies that we are foolish to believe in such a fairy tale.
Therein lies the problem.
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Let's all be honest for just a sec, not everyone here has a MLC spouse, and many will find out that that's not the case. If you're still holding on after so many years, and they don't come back? This may be a permanent end to your marriage. For some here, this is something that they will have to accept.
Quite true and acceptance is our objective here.
Once we accept, we can move forward with our lives whether they come back or not...
I just don't think that the majority on here are dealing with a diagnosable mental disease as FTD. I really believe that MLC in its varied presentations is the common thread here.
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By the way, I have friends who work for NIH ( National Institutes for Health ), 3000 is not a large number in the grand scheme of things for research. The conflicting web hits on Google concerning this subject alone are mindbogglingly high.
Well no one can just generalize what is 'large number of things' as it depends on things and what do you want to know about things and what methods you are using.
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"Midlife Crisis" is Brain Disease of the Frontal Lobe"
THIS is what most people are upset about. Not, it COULD BE, but it IS.
If it had been put this way (could be) no one would have cared. A lot of people on here have said it could be this, or that....and no one cares. But to keep insisting it IS over and over again is ridiculous.
I would say that is being closed minded.
One person has gone and figured out what everyone on this site has.
We may as well close up shop and all go home. We have our answer.
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"Midlife Crisis" is Brain Disease of the Frontal Lobe"
THIS is what most people are upset about. Not, it COULD BE, but it IS.
If it had been put this way (could be) no one would have cared. A lot of people on here have said it could be this, or that....and no one cares. But to keep insisting it IS over and over again is ridiculous.
Totally agree. Ridicilous is exact the word to use here.
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This sums up bvFTD's obsession:
You probably know where I am going. Get your spouse diagnosed to help us find the cure before one of your children is afflicted later.
She wants everyone to be diagnosed with this disease so that the disease gets the attention and people have 5k walks to find a cure and they wear orange ribbons and have celebrity spokespeople and the like. But this is a really insensitive and selfish way to go about it.
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Pyroluria or Pyrrole Disorder was my bvFTD. It was several years into researching my xH's condition that another lbs (kikki - I don't think she'd mind if I called her out!) and I found this one.
Don't mind at all Ready :)
We sure filled those biochemistry and brain threads in the early days.
With such a sudden personality change and out of character behaviours, I always knew that something had to have happened to my MLCer's brain. The list of potentials is long and could be as 'simple' as depression, ranging all the way to the likes of bvFTD.
I've finally stopped watching out of the corner of one eye for a potential brain tumour to be more obvious. I guess after 7 years I can finally cross this one off the list.
If our MLCers were open to being investigated, then I am sure more of them would eventually be diagnosed with something (ranging from depression to dementias). So often those initial diagnoses will be reviewed and changed as time goes on. Medicine is not always an exact science. Psychiatry and psychology even less so. Most bipolar diagnoses are 10 years in the making, for example.
But of course, 'there's nothing wrong with them', so that's a moot point for most of us.
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But of course, 'there's nothing wrong with them', so that's a moot point for most of us.
YUP! Exactly
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PM:
I am so very sorry to report that this horrific disease is fatal. It can be drawn out out for over a decade, unless the motor variants (Amyotrophic Lateral Sclerosis, Progressive Supranuclear Palsy and Corticobasal Deneration) come to call.
People with the language variant of frontotemporal (Semantic and Primary Progressive Aphasia) seek out doctors because their brains are affected on the left side, but not our ill spouses whose brains are dMaged on the right.
Yes, my husband's neurologist would like him to undergo genetic testing, but my husband refused. He believes he is "fine" and that the doctor wants our money.
As I mentioned in an earlier post, I had a brief window when my husband said he thought he may be "fu**ked up in the head," so I was able to get him in. I also took him to Emergency a few months before because of his shocking behavior but he refused to go in. Other people tell their spouses they should see a doctor for allergies but clue the doctor in. And some people pretend they are sick and ask their spouses to accompany them. And as I have said, unfortunately sometimes the police force our hand.
The huge problem with this disease is that they appear to be okay even though they are terribly ill.
So for those of us that have been here over a decade - I guess we can rule out this disease!
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I am not sure why people are upset if someone wants to say our spouses have or may have bvFTD or bvFTD phenotype. People are still writing incorrect things about bvFTD on this thread. It is not true that each person with bvFTD would end up in an obviously and progressively deteriorated state within a decade. (This post crossed with OP and there is a non-progressing version and some cases including phenotype that can progress over 20 years.)
I think that this may be a fruitful avenue for some people to investigate, especially if there is a family history. My former BIL for example had a meltdown in midlife but didn't have an affair; he yelled obscenities at a group of students. bvFTD makes the good point that if there is a diagnosis, the person can qualify for Medicare and also would not receive the same penalty as being fired. This can be a protective measure.
It is true that many MLCers do not think anything is wrong with them. This is also true for those with bvFTD. Maybe we can at least learn something from people working to better understand and treat bvFTD, who likely often deal with this same issue.
I found bvFTD to be a model of how we are supposed to approach MLC. She protected herself financially, shows compassion to her FH, has helped her teenage children forgive him, and has even made plans in the event that he should need support, even lacking the help of her FH family or even friendship or kindness of her FH. She is not angry, hating him, obsessed with his every move, and seems to have moved forward in way I think we would all want to.
I am not sure why people feel angry at the suggestion their spouse might have bvFTD. I wouldn't feel mad if someone told me my FH has a brain tumor. If you are worried this news means your spouse will never recover, we are all encouraged to live as if they won't come back. The only other reason I can think to reject the idea of bvFTD is the desire to raise awareness of MLC as its own unique syndrome. In that case, however, perhaps research into bvFTD can offer clues as to the cure to MLC and vice versa.
My dad also had a brain tumor. My mom has a seizure disorder. This doesn't mean I know or understand everything about all diagnosis of all conditions affecting the brain.
I want to reiterate that I called UCSF bvFTD department and was surprised that the response was receptive and validating. My own sister is now researching FTD. We can all learn from each other.
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So for those of us that have been here over a decade - I guess we can rule out this disease!
Unfortunately not OP. There is a lesser known variant called bvFTD phenocopy syndrome.
I am not sure that bvFTD was intially aware of this variant when she wrote of the 10 year time frame.
As with all things medical, there are differences of opinion and research as to whether it actually exists or whether it is a late onset psychiatric disorder instead. No doubt, debate amongst the scientists/neuroscientists will continue.
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So for those of us that have been here over a decade - I guess we can rule out this disease!
But it does mean that you could rule out the progressive version of bvFTD though
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I shall repeat my concern Velika.
What worries me is the denial that MCL is something that is real.
What bothers me is emphatically stating that MLC IS a prefrontal lobe disorder.
No one is disputing the many different potential causes in the sudden changes in behavior. I have seen many mlcers come through their crisis. Perhaps if bv had phrased her discussion differently there would not be so many people opposed to her information about FTD. As it is, FTD is presented as the sole cause and MLC is discarded as something that does not exist. That is my problem with this view.
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bvFTD makes the good point that if there is a diagnosis, the person can qualify for Medicare and also would not receive the same penalty as being fired. This can be a protective measure.
I want to speak to this for a second, since it was a topic I actually heard in a non-MLC conversation today. Qualifying for SSI or Medicare is not so simple. Even in cut and dried cases, it can take several years before anything is instated that will help a family. In cases where a person may be saying there is nothing wrong with them and/or continuing to perform up to standard on the job, it would be even harder. My father had a co-worker friend who worked an assembly line job, was nearing retirement age, and had BOTH knees replaced - was still denied disability and had to keep working. My point being, don't get settled in the idea that it would be a piece of cake to get a diagnosis, then have the income you are accustomed to replaced by a subsidy. A diagnosis would likely be just as financially devastating as it would be emotionally.
Like xyz, I think the assertion that this is the *one* diagnosis that dismisses MLC as an umbrella is reaching and misleading. But more than that I think taking the focus off of ourselves and continuing to look for a way to *fix* what has likely already gone beyond our control by the time we are BD'ed prolongs the healing process. And I say this as someone who very much made that mistake myself and would like to see others get their lives and their families' lives back on track as quickly and healthily as possible.
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I shall repeat my concern Velika.
What worries me is the denial that MCL is something that is real.
What bothers me is emphatically stating that MLC IS a prefrontal lobe disorder.
No one is disputing the many different potential causes in the sudden changes in behavior. I have seen many mlcers come through their crisis. Perhaps if bv had phrased her discussion differently there would not be so many people opposed to her information about FTD. As it is, FTD is presented as the sole cause and MLC is discarded as something that does not exist. That is my problem with this view.
Okay yes she made this bold statement. But that does not negate everything bvFTD has to say or everything any one of us has to say. We can be partially correct. Overstating something does not mean there is no value to anything that person has to say.
I find there is a kind of vague truth to a lot of what I read about MLC. For example, I don't agree word for word of everything HB writes but I find some of her observations strike me as profoundly truthful at times. I am not sure that the Jungian conttasexual complex is explanation enough, but I learned a lot from reading this part of the HS site and this has helped me in a way to fit a certain piece of this together. In fact this is one reason I liked this site to start!
I think any experience like the one we have all faced invites us to take on the world with a little more opennness. We have a unique, albeit unwelcome in many ways, chance to experience what it means to be a conscious multidimensional being with ties to both the physical and spiritual world.
bvFTD I appreciate that you have posted here on this forum. I learned a lot from your posts and am grateful to you for helping me better understand what may have happened for so many generations in my FH family.
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I am not sure why people are upset if someone wants to say our spouses have or may have bvFTD or bvFTD phenotype
Maybe because some of us have relatives with degeneratives diseases and know exactly what it means, and don't like that such an heavy, painful thing is made equal to MLC, a reversible condition?
My former BIL for example had a meltdown in midlife but didn't have an affair; he yelled obscenities at a group of students.
So what? My cousin that had MLC didn't had an affair. He also screamed obscenities at his fellow students, at his partner, at his brother and to some friends. Once his crisis was over, my cousin went back to normal.
Do you know how many neurologic and psychiatric disorders involve having a meltdown and screaming obscenities? Several. Including Alzeimer's and Vascular Dementia. My paternal grandmother has the first, my mother the second.
I am not sure why people feel angry at the suggestion their spouse might have bvFTD. I wouldn't feel mad if someone told me my FH has a brain tumor.
I am glad you wouldn't mind someone telling you your husband has bvFTD or a brain tumour without any proof of such thing.
If you are worried this news means your spouse will never recover, we are all encouraged to live as if they won't come back.
There is a very big difference between being encouraged to live as if the MLCer is not coming back and telling people their spouse have a progressive degenerative disease. Again, it is incorrect, not to say wrong and unethical, to tell LBS their spouse have a degenerative disease when do not.
No worthy doctor or health professional would do that. Serious health professionals and scientists do not go around telling people their spouse has a degenerative disease just because some symptoms can be similar to that disease.
The only other reason I can think to reject the idea of bvFTD is the desire to raise awareness of MLC as its own unique syndrome.
Yes, there is a desire on HS - a site and forum for MLC, to raise awareness for MLC as a unique syndrome. Otherwise, this would be a site/board for other conditions and it is not. But that is the only reason you can think to reject the idea of bvFTD?
How do explain that MLC mimics bipolar? So, is it Bipolar, or is it bvFTD? Or its unique type of depression? Or a special sub-set of bipolar? Even if, bipolar is for live and MLC isn't. And the same is true of bvFTD, it is for life, MLC isn't.
How do you explain that MLCers go back to normal? That would not be possible with bvFTD or, for example, Bipolar.
In that case, however, perhaps research into bvFTD can offer clues as to the cure to MLC and vice versa.
The same could be said for research into Unipolar and Bipolar Depression as well as into endocrinology, the central and peripheral nervous system - namely the sympathetic and parasympathetic systems, the amygdala, etc. We have debated pretty much all those issues on the neuroscience threads.
And you Velika, always jump on the bandwagon of any new thing that comes along and always think MLC is that thing. You can never stick to a train of thought, you get all over the place, always thinking the new stuff that was mentioned must be it, it must be the anwswer, it really must explain MLC.
It is impossible to conduct any sort of serious study into a subject if one keeps thinking every new thing is it, and if one is always setting aside other previous, often far more simpler and close to home, explanations.
We can rule out bvFTD, OP. As for bvFTD phenocopy syndrome, experts aren't even sure it does exist or what it is. But, to my knowledge, even in bvFTD phenocopy syndrome exists, people with it do not go back to normal - the illness may not progress, but it also does not regress. Once the crisis is over, MLCers go back to normal.
What bothers me is emphatically stating that MLC IS a prefrontal lobe disorder.
I think MLC, like many other things, can impact the prefrontal lobe. But that is not the same as having a prefrontal lobe disorder.
MLC impacts many areas of the brain and body.
I think people here that are not familiar with our neuroscience threads should go read them to have an idea of the many things that have been discussed over the years.
The big problem with bvFTD is that she got here and said all our spouses are suffering from bvFTD. She didn't say some of them may have it, she said MLC is bvFTD. Big difference.
In what is bvFTD correct, aside from saying her husband as bvFTD (if he does, because, from what bvFTD writes he does not fullfill the 3 criteria necessary)? She claims, over and over again, all our spouses have bvFTD.
We know that is not true.
Ready2, we have often debated neuroscience issues, that may, or may not, be related to MLC. I don't think that is stop focussing on ourselves, I think that is learning and thinking about broader issues, not just MLC.
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I forgot, I think we can rule out any disorder/illness that is permanent/degenerative/which effects once gained do not dissapear, because, for most, MLC is temporary.
For the handfull that don't seem to come out of MLC, who knows what has caused them to remain in MLC.
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Qualifying for SSI or Medicare is not so simple.
Even in cut and dried cases, it can take several years before anything is instated that will help a family.
Two years is a minimum.
Right now, as of today social security is hearing cases from 2014 in my area.
And you MUST have a diagnosis and doctors paperwork or your case will be denied.
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"Okay yes she made this bold statement."
Velika it was not just a bold statement. It is a ridiculous statement.
She is stating there is no such thing as a midlife crisis. How does she know that?
That is completely dismissing the possibility it could be.
You yourself believe it could be.
I'm not sure why you think it's ok for her to be so closed minded to not consider it could be something other than a frontal lobe problem.
You're smarter than that.
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I am not sure why bv is upsetting so many people. If she is wrong, then she hasn't taken anything from us. She is just stating her opinion, and maybe offering an avenue for some who see that perhaps their spouse might have signs of neurogenerative disorder.
I do not see a link to bv personal fundraising website where she is soliciting donations. She has just expressed her simple opinion.
My grandfather had dementia. And in fact my FH eyes reminded me of his eyes at times. But I don't think it is offensive to compare the two. In many ways MLC can be even more tragic because of when it strikes.
If this is a discussion board, I don't see why it is incorrect to explore and discuss similarities between what we observe and known syndromes, entertain theories, wonder out loud. MLC is pretty mysterious. So is bvFTD and many other syndromes like autism and ALS. People with firsthand experience can be invaluable in understanding what might be similarities.
If many people here have a reversible condition that has many traits in common with bvFTD, at least at the outset/early stages, this is worth discussing.
No one knows if their particular spouse has a reversible condition -- until it reverses. So while we can feel buoyed by stories with happy endings, and keep hope, I think there is a way to also love without hope.
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But again V, we are not talking about discussing her opinion. Most would be open to that.
We are being told she knows what is wrong with our spouses.
It's not a discussion. It is a conclusion.
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Goner:
I have refrained from responding to you directly because you are very hard on me even though you don't know anything about me.
You have determined the papers I read, my intentions on why I post on this site, and even declared my favorite color ribbon.
I have read your excellent theories. Why aren't we all working together?
You can PM me anytime you wish. I will always respond to you. Take Care.
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Thank you, Velika.
I am following a woman's blog whose husband is 20 years into the disease. Just now the husband believes the actors on TV are his friends in the living room with him.
The wife said her marriage was over 15 years ago. I guess her husband would be described as a "wallower" on this site. He never left the home. He just gradually had to find simpler jobs after being fired from more demanding ones, and he completely disengaged from her and their children a long time ago.
This disease, as you said, presents very differently in each person.
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So my X husband isn't having a MLC, he has a bvFTD? ???
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I guess her husband would be described as a "wallower" on this site. He never left the home. He just gradually had to find simpler jobs after being fired from more demanding ones, and he completely disengaged from her and their children a long time ago.
No, he wouldn't. LBS with wallowers do not have husbands that think people on TV are their friends living in their room. If someone would come here saying their marriage has ended 15 years ago and now, 20 years later, their husband thought people on TV were their friends living in their room, we would know something more than MLC was going on. In fact, I doubt we would think it was MLC at all.
Maybe you don't know HS well enough. More than once we have told people we thought their spouse had more than MLC, or had no MLC at all. But we don't think every MLCer has bvFTD.
No, Chris, you husband is having a MLC. Pretty much all our spouses are having a MLC. bvFTD husband has bvFTD and because of it she things all our spouses have the same. But they don't.
See bvFTD, that is the danger of what you are doing, you are leading people to think their spouses have what your husband have. They don't.
Like Velika, you seem incapable of explain why MLCers get back to normal once they are out of MLC. That does not happen with degenerative diseases.
What is the explanation? How do you explain the reconnections and reconcilations and those MLCers that do not reconnect but come out of crisis? How do you explain that I, and other HS members that had MLC, went back to normal and have no traces of our crisis period?
This disease, as you said, presents very differently in each person.
Any disease, from the common cold to cancer, presents very differently in each person. But there are always common traits to each disease. And there are also traits that are shared by different/several diseases.
We have already rulled out MLC being bvFTD.
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Ready2Transform:
Velika is correct. She is giving you good advice. People diagnosed with ftd are fast-tracked for SSI. Why would you question her? As are people diagnosed with ALS.
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Anjae, who has ruled out MLC being bvFTD? My sister works researching FTD with a lab that works closely with UCSF. She told me she is interested in pursuing the connection.
I spoke to a researcher at UCSF. She echoed what bv has written here, this is a poorly understood type of dementia because more research has gone into Alzheimer's.
bv mentioned a woman whose H *only recently* thinks the characters on TV are interacting with him -- 20 years in. What if she had come to this site 15 years ago, when her H was just emotionally disconnected? Perhaps she would learn he was a "wallower."
What if she had heard -- your H might have something we have seen and/or read about, a reversible condition called MLC where he will gradually improve -- OR he could have a degenerative condition you might want to rule out? What harm is there in that? Wouldn't it be helpful for her to be on the lookout for indications that things are heading in a different direction?
I think everyone should take a close look at the family history. This is likely the best indicator of what might happen. If there is a family history of midlife abandonment with no recovery or worsening symptoms, this may be an indication to pursue lines of inquiry beyond MLC. If there is a family history of midlife abandonment with reconciliation, this might be a timeline to anticipate.
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Read OP's post, and Kikki's one. Read all of my posts about bvFTD being a degenerative disease and MLC not and the whys.
And please explain how a dementia can be reversible because, for now, none of them are. Like bvFTD, you do not have an explanation for MLC being reservible.
Both of you have been asked many times to explain it, but none of you does it.
There are a million more logic and simple avenues to try to explain what MLC is than bvFTD. Like studying hormones and depression.
And how was she the woman going to rule it out if her husband was had bvFTD? Did you ever heard of a MLCer that allowed him/herself to be diagnosed? I haven't.
Plus, how many times do I have to say that, that by what bvFTD writes her husband does not fulfill the 3 criteria to an absolute bvFTD diagnosis. Go back to her threads and you will find a post from me explaining it.
It is irresponsible to tell people their spouse have a degenerative disease without medical tests that confim such diagnosis.
Family history may, or may not, be of help. What may had happened to a family member may not happen to another. And many of us do not have a MLCer with a history of midlife abandonment with no recovery or worsening symptoms. And even no recovery may merely mean the person remained in MLC.
Why is it so hard and difficult to accept MLC may be real? Well, if it wasn't, how was your sister going to examine the connections between MCL and bvFTD? She wasn't, because she couldn't be comparing something that does not exist.
Velika, to you MLC has been gut problems, Bipolar, and I don't know how many other things. To you MLC is the flavour of the month. If one of these days someone comes may with something you think may be MLC you will say MLC is that thing.
This whole MLC is bvFTD is distracting for serious study and research of MLC and is making MLC sound like a joke.
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SongandDance:
You wrote that there were are about 3,000 cases of MLS on your MLS site. All right. But it seems to me that the views are repeats and the stories are by Of the sMe same people reporting updates.
Regardless, a neurologist who has been researching ftd for decades is certain there are well over a million people with the disorder in the US, most of whom are never diagnosed. Another researcher believes the alarming uptick in midlife divorces is due to this dementia.
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bvFTD makes the good point that if there is a diagnosis, the person can qualify for Medicare and also would not receive the same penalty as being fired. This can be a protective measure.
You are assuming everyone in this forum lives in the US. Where there would be insurance that would cover it and compassion from employers (or maybe not). It's basically a mental illness. Do you know the stigma and lack of support attached to that in some countries? Do you understand that in some countries it might actually be much better for the MLCer if people accept his/her own explanation for what is going on (however wrong that might be as well) than a false diagnosis of bvFTD?
I am not sure why people feel angry at the suggestion their spouse might have bvFTD. I wouldn't feel mad if someone told me my FH has a brain tumor.
My husband is a doctor. He once took me to a colleague, a specialist, who actually examined me. This doctor told him, "I think Goner has (a specific type) of cancer." I was far far too young at the time for her to even remotely consider that as the first possibility because it was a kind of cancer that normally strikes someone much older. It was a ridiculous and irresponsible suggestion. My husband was angry, I was angry, he never took me to her again. I didn't have cancer obviously. If a doctor can get angry at a colleague for making a really bad suggestion after a patient exam, then doesn't it make sense that we as lay people would be angry that a total stranger who is not a doctor would diagnose all our spouses without even knowing anything about them?
he only other reason I can think to reject the idea of bvFTD is the desire to raise awareness of MLC as its own unique syndrome. In that case, however, perhaps research into bvFTD can offer clues as to the cure to MLC and vice versa.
The reason to reject her idea is that the criteria for bvFTD don't match our spouses' symptoms. It's really that simple. There's something called differential diagnosis, you know.
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Ready2Transform:
Velika is correct. She is giving you good advice. People diagnosed with ftd are fast-tracked for SSI. Why would you question her? As are people diagnosed with ALS.
Why? Because it's not based in any real experience! Like most of this thread. No offense Velika, I know you have read the info somewhere, but how many times have you applied for SSI? How things SHOULD work in this country (and yes, I'm talking USA) and how much red tape a person actually goes through are two different things. I know people who have attempted the process, and it's not so cut and dried in the real world.
For anyone who wants to do their own research, here are some links, so you can decide for yourself:
https://www.ssa.gov/disabilityresearch/fast-track.htm
https://www.ssa.gov/compassionateallowances/
https://www.ssa.gov/compassionateallowances/conditions.htm
https://secure.ssa.gov/apps10/poms.nsf/lnx/0423022170
FTD is indeed on the Compassionate Allowances list, as is the requirements for proving it that would be necessary to even be considered. It all comes down to a judge's approval, and then afterward check-ins to make sure they still meet the criteria. The description brings home yet again how this is not what most of us are experiencing.
For Anjae: "The outcome for individuals with FTD is poor. The disease progresses steadily and often rapidly, ranging from less than 2 years in some individuals to more than 10 years in others. Eventually some individuals with FTD will need 24-hour care and monitoring at home or in an institutionalized care setting."
None of this is of any help to me, of course. My xH is bipolar and still works, building a life with his second wife. Oh well.
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Chriss:
I am so sorry, but yes, your husband MAY have bvFTD. His complete disregard for you and the children, to the point where he didn't care if his family lived on the street is a glaring example of a complete lack of empathy, loss of emotions and sociopathy, which you have said is uncharacteristic. He has exhibited a drastic personality change in midlife.
My children forgave my husband once they knew he was sick. My one son stopped called his father The B*stard. It is better to know. Even if you can't get him diagnosed now that he is with the wh*re, you can at least tell your children there may not only be a possibility that their father is not in his right mind (which I am sure they've already deduced), but that he has a serious medical condition.
You know best how to handle it, Chriss: You got them this far through the trauma.
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so does that mean he will get progressively worse?? its unlikely he'll come out of this?
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Chriss, absolutely no one here can predict what will happen with your husband. You have just had a huge BD with the wedding and that is more than enough on your plate without us strangers making it worse.
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SongandDance:
You wrote that there were are about 3,000 cases of MLS on your MLS site. All right. But it seems to me that the views are repeats and the stories are by Of the sMe same people reporting updates
There are exactly 4128 members on this forum - 99% of whom came looking for guidance and advice and 99% of whom found that their stories were identical. The views are not repeats - they are individual stories. 4128 INDIVIDUAL stories.
Regardless, a neurologist who has been researching ftd for decades is certain there are well over a million people with the disorder in the US, most of whom are never diagnosed. Another researcher believes the alarming uptick in midlife divorces is due to this dementia.
No-one on here is arguing with the fact that FTD exists and that it may be a hidden illness. NO one is disputing that. If there is a ten year time frame then perhaps there will be a percentage of spouses on here who are sufferers. Yet again - NO-ONE is disputing that.
However you have not answered my question about my H and those who have reconnected, rebuilt or reconciled. If they clearly show signs of "mental improvement" and have become better people but, if in your opinion, they do not have MLC depression then what did they have BVFTD?
Velika - I am not attacking BvFTD for her opinions but I am asking that she consider how she welcomes new people to the forum. Her phrasing and language is unsympathetic at a time when they are frightened, lonely and bewildered; think back to your first time on here. You sought some guidance, advice , reassurance.
Is being told by a complete stranger that there is no such thing as MLC but your husband has (not may have ) has a clinical degenerative disease helpful. It's a bit like being told by a stranger " oh losing weight? - Yep - you've got cancer!"
How horrific is that? And I apologise profusely to all who may be offended by my comparison; I have had many family members who have had cancer and that was the first obvious symptom for them all.
I have no problem with bvFTD stating that it could be a cause of the spouse's behaviour but it should be balanced alongside the fact that there could be many other causes including MLC.
Chriss, absolutely no one here can predict what will happen with your husband. You have just had a huge BD with the wedding and that is more than enough on your plate without us strangers making it worse
Absolutely R2T. Chriss - focus on yourself - we have no way of knowing what the ultimate cause is but we do have enough experience and knowledge on how to look after yourself.
BVFTD - I am still intrigued as to how you think the LBSers who have vanishers or have ex spouse who are in other relationships/ married or otherwise can get their spouse to be tested. What do those "LBSers" do?
Please explain how you can insist to a very reticent spouse that they need to get tested. Most of the "MLCers" would refuse or worse become very very difficult, perpetuating the problem. It's all very well saying they need to get tested but what suggestions can you offer that would engage the spouse and make him want to be tested?
If this is a site for helping people understand a whole host of conditions that may be present in the spouse then please help! Offer advice, guide rather than instruct. Please don't just diagnose without offering any back up on how to deal with the crisis when the LBS is at her emotional lowest.
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Chriss:
I am so sorry, but yes, your husband MAY have bvFTD. His complete disregard for you and the children, to the point where he didn't care if his family lived on the street is a glaring example of a complete lack of empathy, loss of emotions and sociopathy, which you have said is uncharacteristic. He has exhibited a drastic personality change in midlife.
My children forgave my husband once they knew he was sick. My one son stopped called his father The B*stard. It is better to know. Even if you can't get him diagnosed now that he is with the wh*re, you can at least tell your children there may not only be a possibility that their father is not in his right mind (which I am sure they've
already deduced), but that he has a serious medical condition.
You know best how to handle it, Chriss: You got them this far through the trauma.
I think u may be right, this is not normal behaviour seems to me its much more than a MLC, my kids keep telling me he is insane, I haven't seen him in over 2 yrs last I saw him was at mediation in June, he looks 'sick' his eyes are sooo puffy something he never had prior to this also he had a smirk on his face, at other times he had his head turned to the side like he was ashamed of himself nevertheless not my problem anymore.
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I think that what screening would do is attempt to rule out an assortment of possible causes for behavior and personality changes.
These might include: psychiatric problems, tumors, strokes, drug reactions, addiction, and yes — neurodegenerative disorder. This is why scans and other tests and screenings can help.
bv and S&D have highlighted a key challenge when faced with MLC, bvFTD, and many other psychiatric illness and personality disorder, and this is that the afflicted person does not think anything is wrong with them, or suspects but is fearful or ashamed. This is why being informed and having the right language to discuss our observations with specialists we seek help from (lawyers, judges, doctors, psychiatrists, therapists) — is extremely helpful.
As bv wrote, someone can receive a specific diagnosis and reject it or even treatment. Sadly this is also a key challenge with other syndromes and illnesses. Differential diagnosis is a huge challenge and it can take years just to get a diagnosis, with no guarantee that the afflicted person will accept it or treatment.
I think this is why it is important to be observant about your spouse or former spouse's behavior, as well as changes to appearance, behavior, and personality. These may eventually offer clues that your spouse's condition is improving or deteriorating.
I would like to note here that my FH began having severe headaches in the months preceding bomb drop, as well as a type of mystery feverish illness. These migraines have continued. He has as you describe CY, a changed appearance as well, especially around the eyes. A neurology specialist told me that sudden onset migraine is a huge red flag.
I really appreciate this discussion on HS!
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You are exactly right about the screening, Velika. FH neurologist ordered FH to undergo blood testing in order to rule out curable forms of dementia and conditions that mimic dementia, followed by more extensive testing.
General practitioners, however, will often just give patients the MMSE which is a quick and accurate test for Alzheimers but not FTD. FTD patients can ace the MMSE even while they are living in care facilities and incapable of functioning well in other areas. I have read many accounts of people who took their spouses to the GP who declared the spouse fine even though the concerned husband or wife told the doctor that their spouse seems as if they have dementia, that is if the GP deigns to perform the MMSE at all since spouse can "mask" their behavior for a time and is young.
The clock-drawing test would be a better quick screening tool to use at the doctor's office since it tests sequencing and planning, executive functions that are compromised in ftd. As always, some of the most helpful tools are your accounts of their changed personality and family history.
I'm just throwing these ideas out in case anyone ever gets their spouse to a GP, but not a neurologist.
I would also like to add that I have repeatedly said in my posts that if YOU FEEL, after reading about ftd, that your spouse shows signs and symptoms of the disorder, that it is definitely something to think about. If YOU DON'T then carry on.
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Chriss:
The disturbing smirk you and so many of us saw on our spouses that chilled us is from dyskinesia.
Risus Sardonicus.
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Scary $h!tee, well the kids keep telling me he's INSANE, wonder how his new marriage will pan out?
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Another quick test you could perform yourself is to use sarcasm, metaphor or proverbs. As I mentioned in another post, these are tests researchers actually use. The ability to detect sarcasm is a higher-brain function. I think I read that children don't understand sarcasm until about age 7.
Velika mentioned that her FH no longer had his witty, ironic, quick sense of humor. Mine lost his, too. Mant ppl with the disorder will lose interest in "adult" comedic shows and instead begin watching silly videos, childish cartoons or Three Stooges-type, slapstick TV.
If you do see your spouse, work in something such as, "People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones." He will think you are talking about rock-throwing. Or "The early bird gets its worm." He may start discussing robins and lawn care.
My H stunned me and others when someone said, "That's like night and day," and H, attorney, business owner and someone who made people laugh and laugh whenever he was around because of his great sense of humor and delight in being with others asked, "What do you mean by that." And then we patiently explained to him what this common expression meant.
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Chriss:
The disturbing smirk you and so many of us saw on our spouses that chilled us is from dyskinesia.
Risus Sardonicus.
These have to do with involuntary muscle contractions, not with smirking on purpose. It's important to note that for those of us who think of the "smirk" in terms of the character their spouses became exhibiting menacing glares or laughing at us. It's not the same thing. That's the danger with a forum like this where we're describing things without physical examples to compare. Many times what we're thinking we have in common may be something completely different.
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I just read someone's comment that said memory loss is very common in MLS. Please do not confuse memory loss with failure to attend or simply not caring.
My H couldn't repeat back the 3 words after 5 or 10 minutes (another neurological test). But it wasn't because he couldn't remember or forgot them. He didn't CARE that we were at a neurologist's office and undergoing very serious testing. He tuned out the doctor, sat slumped and spent his energy sneering at me instead of following the doctor's instructions.
A heart-wrenching part of this disease is the lack of emotional connection to what should be the best, most fondest of memories. The day H married me and the days each of our 4 children were born, are as meaningful to him as yesterday when he got the oil changed in his car.
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Dyskinesia? How come? Dyskinesias is either caused by certain types of meds or Chronic or tardive, meaning a motor disorder is necessary.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dyskinesia
Of the other two types, non-motor:
Primary ciliary dyskinesia: "a rare, ciliopathic, autosomal recessive genetic disorder"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primary_ciliary_dyskinesia
"Biliary dyskinesia is a disorder of some component of biliary part of the digestive system in which bile physically can not move normally in the proper direction through the tubular biliary tract."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biliary_dyskinesia
Do you even know what you are talking about, bvFTD? Do you really know what dyskinesia is?
The smirk is not uncommon on depressed or bipolar people. Or is psychitic people. Or in people that drink or take drugs. Like Ready2 explained, one needs to be careful with what one writes and says.
Among others, depressed people often don't detect sarcams or humour. How exactly would a layperson be doing tests that are reserved for professionals? Some things should be left to professionals.
As for taking the spouse to see a doctor, any doctor, you, and Velika, do not seem to have read our threads. It is not possible to take a MLCer to see a doctor.
Mr J had a in-doctor in a the company he worked for pre-MLC. Mr J knew he was depressed, the doctor knew, I knew, because Mr J told me so. I tried to get him to the doctor, the doctor, who worked in the company, tried to see Mr J. Result? Mr J left home and the company.
Don't worry, he does not have bvFTD. He left 11 years ago. MLC aside, he is fine.
bvFTD, you know, our MLCers couldn't care less about following doctor's instructions, but they don't have bvFTD. Some things just look the same, but aren't. And sometimes, what is though to be one thing, may be another, for example, this new theory about ADHD: https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/sleep-newzzz/201305/adhd-or-sleep-disorder-are-we-getting-it-wrong
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Ready2Transform:
Are you perhaps thinking of dystonia?
I stand by what I said. A woman who posts about her husband said the neurologist told her that her H has a Sardonic Affect.
So does mine.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QV8iVIKocxo
dyskinesia vs dystonia
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A sardonic Affect means a grimly mocking or sarcastic mood which is an outward, observable manifestation of a person's expressed feelings or emotions.
Quite different to a neurological style disorder of the facial (or other) muscles.
Not saying your H doesn't have both at times bvFTD, but as Ready points out, without seeing our spouses, you have no idea whether we are dealing with the same thing or not.
I think the smirk I saw in the early days was related to times of mania.
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Ready2Transform:
Are you perhaps thinking of dystonia?
I stand by what I said. A woman who posts about her husband said the neurologist told her that her H has a Sardonic Affect.
So does mine.
I have no doubt that you two were told something that is in your case correct. What I am saying is that the "smirk" referred to by many here is likely not the same thing physically. Facial expression vs. facial contortion involuntarily. It's the danger of us not being able, by using pictures of our spouses since we are anonymous, to convey exactly what we're referring to and therefore sometimes using similar terminology to describe absolutely different things. I saw pictures of what you referred to online, and it is nothing like the 'smirk' my xH exhibited while in "monster" character. What I experienced was also not Parkinson's-like. I have a friend in my industry who has dystonia, and I see his pictures and know he too is suffering from a physical malady, not expressing something as my xH did.
I would encourage people to look at pictures online and see for themselves whether what their spouses exhibited is the same thing as what we're talking about.
Edited: kikki's responses came while I was typing, so apologies if there is overlap!
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Differential diagnosis is challenging even for professionals. That is why many people take years to receive a correct diagnosis.
We are just on a forum, curious about what we are observing and wanting to learn and understand more. I just posted an areticle about a husband-wife pair, working separately and in different fields, were able to learn more about the possible cause of autism. Sometimes it's nice to take an open and curious approach.
I think it is helpful that we are discussing these symptoms here, even if there may be multiple causes. Maybe if people come to this forum wondering why their spouse doesn't care about them anymore, or is giving them a cruel smirk as they helplessly attempt to communicate, they will come to see that this is not what they think it is. Perhaps their spouse simply cannot feel the same emotion or behave in the way they once did.
I felt bewildered and creeped out by my FH initial post bomb drop behavior. Now that I can understand this may be the symptom of various types of illness, it helps me to understand and work through this trauma.
bv is acknowledging that getting a spouse in this condition to the doctor may be impossible. She mentioning these small tips to help us see if our spouse cannot detect irony etc. I do not see a link where she is posting to buy her special 10-step guidebook to curing bvFTD. She is just sharing what she has learned. I think it's interesting! I'm learning a lot from this thread.
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Ready2Transform:
On further research you are also correct. I was talking about orafacial dyskinesia, but I just came across a paper which states, "Hyperkinetic movement disorders such as motor and verbal stereotypies are seen in 78% of ftd patients. Other hyperkinetic movements, such as chorea, orafacial dyskinesia a, myoclonus and dystonia are also observed in some patients with ftd. ( ncbi.nlm.nih,gov)
I told H neurologist about H's nighttime myoclonus. H smashed me a couple time in the face with an out flung arm while he fitfully slept. I read somewhere that the disorders events inhibition of dream movements.
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You are right, Velika, bvFTD is not trying to sell anything. No one said she was. Like no one denied FTd exists and is a terible, terrible illness.
What we don't buy is that our spouses have FTD.
Differential diagnosis is challenging even for professionals. That is why many people take years to receive a correct diagnosis.
It is. Very challenging. Which is why one should not try to say that behaviour x or thing z means illness w. They may not. At all.
I am fairly certain that for pretty much everyone here the reason is MLC. If you read through the threads, including of those in reconnection or reconciled, or those that don't yet have the purple icon, but are already getting closer and closer to their MLCer, you will notice many had totally insane behaviour at BD and even afterwards.
Do you know Mr J totally lost it? And I mean, lost it. Going so far as trying to push me - and the baby we though I was carrying - down the stairs, after he had dragged me through the flat's foor. Next day he didn't remember a thing about what he had done. Do you remember LP's telling her husband also tried do kill her and that, now, some five years down the road, he is trying to get closer to her - she is not interested.
And In It's husband nearly left her dead.
Some of us have truly crazy MLCer, but many years down the road they are fine, they don't have a degenerative disease. It was the MLC crazy and psychotic episodes.
However, some people that start by having a MLC end up with something else. Like Pixie's husband. We don't know what he end up with, she stop posting, he lived away from her, but what she used to post was beyond the pale. At a point, on top of his PTSD and MLC something else happened to her husband. Bipolar? FTD? Schizophrenia? Constant psychosis (he drunk and took too many drugs)? Who knows. All we know is that Pixie's husband went down a very ugly, terrible path and become an mental, psychological and physical mess.
She mentioning these small tips to help us see if our spouse cannot detect irony etc
But even if our spouse cannot detect irony, etc, that, in itself, does not mean much. It is something that hapens with several illesses. How were we going to know which one it was? We weren't.
Maybe if people come to this forum wondering why their spouse doesn't care about them anymore, or is giving them a cruel smirk as they helplessly attempt to communicate, they will come to see that this is not what they think it is. Perhaps their spouse simply cannot feel the same emotion or behave in the way they once did.
But what if it is just what they think it is? It is impossible to tell the difference, isn't it? Of course the MLCer cannot feel the same emotion or behave in the way they once did. That is one of the signs of MLC.
Like with Kikki's husband, Mr J's smirk was from mania. It showed when we was being manic. Years after, I have seen the same smirk in Bipolar patients on a manic phase.
Even if we weren't anonymous, I don't have any photo of Mr J's smirk. They happened back in late 2006 and early 2007, and, trust me, even if I had a camera around, taking a picture would be the last thing on my mind. I was too busy trying to safe myself. I have a picture in my mind. Now in the very back of my mind, and, right now, I don't really want to see it. It was horrible.
Like Ready2's and Kikki's husband, Mr J was expressing something. Something nasty. As for sarcasm, Mr J is the king of sarcasm. Nasty, cruel, awful sarcarms. One of the many reasons I don't want to have contact with him.
Even with photos we may get it wrong. We know the meaning of some of the technical terms, and can look up any we want, but we are not experts. We do have to be careful with some things.
We are just on a forum, curious about what we are observing and wanting to learn and understand more. I just posted an areticle about a husband-wife pair, working separately and in different fields, were able to learn more about the possible cause of autism. Sometimes it's nice to take an open and curious approach.
She is just sharing what she has learned. I think it's interesting! I'm learning a lot from this thread.
Now, more or less. At first, and for a while, bvFTD was saying all our spouses had FTD. And a few posts back she said to Chriss that Chriss husband's smirk was dyskinesia. bvFTD didn't saw Chriss husband, and dyskinesia only occurs in very specific circ0ntances - see the list I post.
That is not just sharing what one has learned, is diagnosing people. And scaring the hell out of newbies.
People come here in turmoil, frighten, scared, they want to talk, to vent, to have someone listening to them and offering some support. They are not at a point of dealing with a bunch of super complicated neurology stuff.
Kikki, Ready2, myself and a few others, far down the road, and who have a interests in these matters, can discuss them, but most here are not here to discuss neurology.
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I have no idea what is wrong with him all I know he is NOT WELL, and theres nothing I can do about it, he's married her, I and my kids are in the past like he's trashed us and pretends we were nothing to him, that we didn't 'happen' he's made his new life a new beginning. :'(
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Chriss:
I agree with you. Your husband is unwell. But his new life is not a new beginning. It will be the death of him.
Love and strength to all of us.
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Chris:
Your husband is in a crisis. It will not be the death of him and for bvFTD to suggest such a thing is hurtful and wrong!!!!!
Many people who have a mid life crisis must resolve issues that have been plaguing them for many years of their lives. Many people who are having a mid life crisis, are actually better people once they get through the crisis.
A many of us have stated, continue to try and find your own peace and balance in life. Life is too short, our kids grow up so fast.
We can only be responsible for ourselves and creating a life that is one that matters to us.
bvFTD, you are doing a GREAT disservice to many many posters by continuing to push your agenda whatever it is. You are not in a position to diagnose any of our spouses and to do so, and to cause people to be even more upset and scared is a terrible thing to do.
I would suggest bvFTD, that YOU find yourself a good therapist to figure out why you feel the need to cause even more distress in other people's lives.
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xyzcf:
Please don't attack or get personal with me. Do not suggest I see a therapist. You are out of line and in denial.
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I will tell you something, xyzcf:
My youngest son was required to see a therapist, mandated by the court in all divorces in our city in order to help children during this ordeal.
I met with the therapist and told her our situation. A light bulb went off in her head. She said that explained some of her cases when a spouse seemed to "suddenly turn bipolar."
I am just trying to get the word out, to alert traumatized people of this barely known, destructive, horrific disease. It is confronting but necessary. It is better to know.
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I dont understand how he can run off and function as 'normal' with her and everyone else.
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bv had suffered a horrible tragedy and loss and has managed to show true compassion and dignity. She is trying to point out syntoms of an illness that can mimic MLC in early stages.
This does not mean anyone's case is hopeless or that there isn't a chance to look to stories with happy endings and feel encouraged. I think that each person must look to their own family history and direct observations and also consider the advice they receive -- on this forum, in real life -- as having a point of view.
Just as bv can't diagnose anyone, we can all see MLC as umbrella term for a pattern of symptoms and behavior that may have a variety of origins and outcomes. Being informed of signs this is not MLC may save our spouses and protect ourselves and our children.
My FH for example has strong family history with poor outcome. We also share a young son. For someone in my position I must be aware of signs his condition may be more serious in order to protect our son and make responsible choices when it comes to coparenting.
People on this forum offer a lot of generosity, compassion, and patience to extremely selfish, irresponsible, and abusive behavior on the part of MLCers. Perhaps we can extend this same feeling to someone who is stating simply a differing opinion.
I want to add personally that therapy is often a choice made by a healthy person. Telling someone to go to therapy to figure out what their problem is is unkind, and unfortunately further stigmatizes therapy for some who might find it helpful and positive.
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Another quick test you could perform yourself is to use sarcasm, metaphor or proverbs. As I mentioned in another post, these are tests researchers actually use.
And that's precisely why your diagnosis of all our spouses falls flat in my H's case. Because he DEFINITELY gets metaphor. At one point he found a diary I had been keeping a year ago and pressured me to read it to him. I described feeling like I was in a small boat being tossed around in a hurricane. He said, "You are a great writer" and agreed with the assessment. He went on to describe his own behavior at work that demonstrated how he definitely WAS acting like a hurricane toward the people working for him. I mean if he can not only understand the metaphor but then describe his own behavior in keeping with that metaphor, I really don't think he has any issues in that department.
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Chriss:
I agree with you. Your husband is unwell. But his new life is not a new beginning. It will be the death of him.
WTF?!?! How can you say that? Do you understand what you are causing here?
No one has right to make that statement over internet.
I am very sorry for what happened to you, I really am but you need to stop making these kind of statements, please.
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Chriss:
I agree with you. Your husband is unwell. But his new life is not a new beginning. It will be the death of him.
Love and strength to all of us.
That is a very unwise statement, possibly even criminal.
Please refrain from giving a prognosis over the internet like that. You CANNOT know if our spouses have FTD.
I am really sorry that your h. has been diagnosed with this disease, however, that does not make all our spouses sick.
As for facial smirks/grimaces (tics) - this is a manner in which people sometimes express an emotion that they cannot decode themselves/cope with, very common in small children who lack the maturity to interpret/cope with what they are feeling. In situations of internal turmoil, why can't adults resort to immature reactions? I am sure many can relate to this - it is not a sign of mental disease. Just something elese to throw in the mix :P
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As for facial smirks/grimaces (tics) - this is a manner in which people sometimes express an emotion that they cannot decode themselves/cope with, very common in small children who lack the maturity to interpret/cope with what they are feeling. In situations of internal turmoil, why can't adults resort to immature reactions? I am sure many can relate to this - it is not a sign of mental disease.
My H when in monster and OW mode would smirk all the time. It would happen when he told me about how lovely and talented OW was, how she appreciated him - how she did this and that? It would happen when he attempted to score points. Until BD I had never seen H smirk this way, I had never seen him be so superior and nasty.
4.5 years on - he is fit and well , no signs of FTD or any other form of mental illness and no smirks at all.
BvFTD - please consider what you are saying. What makes you think it is ok to make such comments such as you did to ChrissY? Please consider how many of the posters on here are hurting, frightened and bewildered. Where is your compassion?
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Chriss:
I agree with you. Your husband is unwell. But his new life is not a new beginning. It will be the death of him.
"
WTF?!?! How can you say that? Do you understand what you are causing here?
No one has right to make that statement over internet.
I am very sorry for what happened to you, I really am but you need to stop making these kind of statements, please.
You'll be the death of me" is an idiomatic expression. It is used hyperbolically, i.e. a mom might say to her wild teenager daughter who frightens her by coming home late yet again: "You'll be the death of me!"
bv did not say to Chris, "Your husband is going to die." She is saying to her, his new life is not going to bode well for him. (Ie he has chosen a very destructive path that won't end well -- a prediction often made on this site.)
That being said, many MLCers choose behaviors that likely do shorten their lives, and I'm sure that some commit suicide or become suicidal if they recover and realize the damage. I met someone last year, an older man, and told him what had happened to my FH. He told me that he has known two men who had done this, and one committed suicide.
What our spouses have done is extremely tragic, and very sad. If we see their behaviors in a larger context -- whether as a pattern of behavior or in possible medical explanations -- it can help us detach to protect our emotions and also make good decisions for ourselves based on the reality of their new limitations.
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Thats how I read it Velika, I think that if he does ever wake up it will chew at him for the rest of his life.
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Not to change the subject but I am curious what method is used to diagonse this disease?
Also in a previous thread something was mentioned about PSP (progressive supernuclear palsey)
which perhaps was the thing my father died from, although the doctor said the only way to know for sure was to bioposy his brain after death, which was not done so I will never know.
Anyways I may know a lot about whatever disease my father had.
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Thats how I read it Velika, I think that if he does ever wake up it will chew at him for the rest of his life.
But bvFTD believes your husband has bvFTD, and if it is that case, he will not wake up and instead will literally die. Although that would have nothing to do with his leaving you or getting married to another woman. It would just be his unavoidable fate.
In the end, he's another woman's husband now, not yours, and whatever the cause, it's her burden to deal with now.
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Thats how I read it Velika, I think that if he does ever wake up it will chew at him for the rest of his life.
But bvFTD believes your husband has bvFTD, and if it is that case, he will not wake up and instead will literally die. Although that would have nothing to do with his leaving you or getting married to another woman. It would just be his unavoidable fate.
In the end, he's another woman's husband now, not yours, and whatever the cause, it's her burden to deal with now.
I have no idea what he has, all i know this is not 'HIM' my kids say that he is insane.
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Not to change the subject but I am curious what method is used to diagonse this disease?
Also in a previous thread something was mentioned about PSP (progressive supernuclear palsey)
which perhaps was the thing my father died from, although the doctor said the only way to know for sure was to bioposy his brain after death, which was not done so I will never know.
Anyways I may know a lot about whatever disease my father had.
When I called UCSF I was told they do both a series of question-and-answer tests as well as scans to look for atrophy. A person can be diagnosed as possible bvFTD if they have the symptoms but no signs of atrophy. If you read about bvFTD, the diagnosis can only be conclusively determined following an autopsy. There is a non-progressive version called bvFTD phenocopy.
The clinic told me that any diagnosis would attempt to rule out other possible causes first: i.e. strokes, tumor, psychiatric illness.
I have mentioned before, but I have read that over half the cases do not present typically. It can take two to three years just to get this diagnosis.
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I have a close friend diagnosed with FTD several years ago though her doctors acknowlege there is no definitive test for FTD except through a post-mortem autopsy. Like a number of diseases, an FTD diagnosis, in advance of an autopsy, is an educated guess. For this reason, it is particularly critical to stay open to possibilities, as similarly presenting conditions can be missed and not treated.
In my friend's case, she presents nothing like an MLCer, but does have a number of the physical and cognitive symptoms outlined at the Association for FTD website: http://www.theaftd.org/understandingftd/diagnosis
Since absolutely no one, including knowledgable scientists and doctors, can know that anyone does or does not have FTD until the brain is looked at after death, it is very important for each person to do his or her own research.
Some highlights from the Association for FTD website that may be helpful are:
FTD is a form of early onset dementia and, like Alzheimer's it is characterized by brain atrophy and gradual loss of brain function.
FTD is primarily a disease of behavior and language dysfunction.
FTD patients exhibit behavioral and personality changes, but retain cardinal features of memory. Some FTD patients may have only language dysfunction and the pattern of language loss may be specific, such as an inability to name a familiar, everyday object.
FTD patients are more likely to display early motor abnormalities, such as difficulty walking, rigidity or tremor (similar to Parkinson disease), or muscle atrophy and weakness.
It is important to understand the distinction between clinical diagnosis of FTD and pathological diagnosis. A clinical diagnosis is carried out by the physician meeting with the patient and family and detailed examinations of changes in cognition, behavior and personality, and neuroimaging studies.
"A pathological diagnosis is determined through autopsy, and requires looking at the brain tissue under a microscope. It is during this examination that physicians can determine the specific type of abnormality present in the brain, and thus the definitive cause of the progressive symptoms experienced during life. A definitive (or an official) diagnosis of FTD can only be made via autopsy.[/u]"
"There are many potential causes that may explain changes in cognition, behavior and motor skills. No single diagnostic test exists to confirm or rule out a diagnosis of FTD. This often results in a long and frustrating process of testing for other disorders with symptoms similar to FTD to rule them out. It is not uncommon for an individual’s diagnosis to change multiple times. Research is still looking for a definitive test for FTD."
I agree with those who have said that what we refer to as MLC is a cluster of symptoms and behaviors that may indicate a variety of issues and conditions that are psychological, physical, emotional and spiritual in nature. There is MUCH we do not know and each person, their genetics, family/personal/medical histories are different, etc.
Personally, I think it's helpful to stay open without forcing any one cause onto anyone. MLC is likely a complicated, multi-layered issue with varying triggers resulting in some similar behaviors, but not necessarily similar outcomes--physical or otherwise. In my own case, I am a third generation LBS, with the interesting medical/genetic part being that the LBS are related through my maternal line, but none of the MLCers are connected biologically. So perhaps there is also a genetic or Family of Origin issue in who we are drawn to, a pattern of choices or lack of self-worth, repeat effort to fix past family issues via our own marriage, or a subconscious "magnetism" to what is familiar to us even when ultimately not in our best interest. My mom vowed not to marry a man who would cheat and abandon, yet somehow she did. I did the same, and could not have married someone who seemed more different in personality and priorities than my father. Yet, 25 years into knowing one another, my H ended up with almost identical behaviors/demeanor/rationale, etc. to my father during his own MLC. While I am in no way blaming the victim, I believe it's imperative to look at ourselves as LBSs as well, and our own history, particularly for me as the mother of a daughter who I hope can break what appears to also be a generational pattern among the women. I can't help her, and she can't help herself, if we are unwilling to look at this from all angles.
For me personally, I also tread carefully about too much dependence on pathologizing MLC as solely a medical issue. It's too simplistic, in my opinion, and may be more about our need as an LBS to avoid looking inward, whether about our own issues and choices, so we don't feel others can "blame" us or point to flaws in ourselves that may have contributed to issues over the course of our marriages. It is less painful, in some ways, to be able to point at a medical condition beyond our control and our spouse's rather than a spouse wanting a different life, not being happy, not wanting to stay married, falling out of love, choosing to betray us. etc. But in the case of my exH, that would also mean a terminal illness which, for me, far outweighs any comfort of absolving I might gain.
In my family's case, none of the MLCers exhibited any brain atrophy, the physcial or degenerative symptoms of FTD, etc. and they lived decades beyond the BD, maintaining second marriages, successful careers, friendships, etc. What they did have in common, is what I've observed in a good number of male MLCers in particular, which is a history of conflict avoidance, poor communication, avoiding help/therapy, and compartmentalizing which can also contribute to destructive behavior over the long-haul (reaching a tipping or boiling point so to speak). My own exH is 7+ years past BD, a total vanisher--including with his daughter--but otherwise doing very well and still with the OW. It does me and my D no good to focus on him being "unwell." He's chosen a different life for whatever reason and whether is be completely free will and or mental/physical issues, I cannot control or impact that. His health and life are is and my life, and my daughter's, are better served by living them.
Phoenix
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what I've observed in a good number of male MLCers in particular, which is a history of conflict avoidance, poor communication, avoiding help/therapy, and compartmentalizing which can also contribute to destructive behavior over the long-haul (reaching a tipping or boiling point so to speak).
Describes my MLC'r to a "T".
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Phoenix, I think what you have written is extremely articulate and important. I hope everyone who visits the site reads it.
I think it is very important to consider the LBS state of trauma when this occurs. I think in this state of shock people are very impressionable and susceptible to other's opinions. This may include both what the MLCer says to the LBS (criticisms of the marriage, criticisms of the LBS) as well as advice from others, which is often based on their personal or professional experience or bias. Just as many object to a general medical diagnosis, I think statements like "your spouse is on a journey" or "most regret it" are oftentimes also too strong for someone who is clinging to hope.
One thing I want to note is that I don't think that a medical cause precludes looking at oneself and the marriage, or is a way to avoid this. I actually suspect that many LBS were even more unhappy than the MLCer on a certain level, especially if there was a typical pattern of increased but suppressed anger and withdrawn behavior, or an emotional or physical affair (or other secretive behavior) the LBS was unaware of.
I think oftentimes we think of "mirror work" as a way of "taking a long, hard look in the mirror" in a self critical or judgmental way. I would like to encourage every LBS to take a compassionate look as well. Initially I blamed myself entirely and took all of my MLCer's criticisms as merited and true. I was willing to overlook extreme emotional abuse thinking I had to prove myself to not be the person he was describing in his attacks.
It took me a long time just to remove myself from the situation and a level of contact and to see with more detachment. So please, if you are new and reading this, I think it is very important to be forgiving of yourself, especially if your former spouse intentionally was leading you to believe everything was okay. Perhaps mirror work can at times be simply, as Phoenix points out, examining whether perhaps you did not choose someone who appreciated you or valued you.
I also want to add — understanding any problems in the marriage does not mean your spouse's way of treating you was justified. If your spouse has treated you without empathy, in an abusive way, or with total emotional detachment, betrayed you, etc. — this has to do with your spouse and not you, whether they are acting this way for neurological, spiritual, or psychological reasons — or a combination of these.
For me, understanding medical symptoms as well as behavioral patterns was a way to observe in a more detached way and also to understand that in many ways this was taking place regardless of me. Not engaging in arguments and maintaining low contact has also been helpful to this end.
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I think oftentimes we think of "mirror work" as a way of "taking a long, hard look in the mirror" in a self critical or judgmental way. I would like to encourage every LBS to take a compassionate look as well. Initially I blamed myself entirely and took all of my MLCer's criticisms as merited and true. I was willing to overlook extreme emotional abuse thinking I had to prove myself to not be the person he was describing in his attacks.
Absolutely I think a lot of times RCR's reference to mirror work as self-reflection gets lost here as we debate and become defensive of our beliefs. She outlines it really well in the articles. The late Louise Hay I believe was the originator of the phrase (please correct me someone if I'm wrong on that!) and also describes it in a very self-loving and nurturing way: http://www.louisehay.com/what-is-mirror-work/ . Definitely something all LBSs, standing or not, can benefit from.
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Thank you once again, Velika.
I am not proposing everyone's spouse on this site has ftd. I have repeatedly said that you know your relationship and situation best. I asked only that you read up on the disorder and decide for yourself whether the signs and symptoms look sickeningly familiar.
A nurse told me the other day that her husband was definitively diagnosed with late-onset bipolar disorder in 2006 at age 38. We have discussed ftd phenocopy and the possibility that people with underlying psychiatric disorders decompensate at midlife. Who knows? We may have lived with complete @$$holes all this time, but I doubt it.
I came on this site to alert you to a common but underrecognized type of dementia that tends to strike people in midlife. I am very sorry if I upset members here by doing so. I think it is far better to know just what we are dealing with, whatever it is, that causes a beautiful marriages of decades to implode, destroying a great family, followed by so much pain, heartache and destruction of finances, and future dreams.
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Phoenix:
Your assertion is not quite accurate. Neurologists can definitively diagnose ftd before death. I think what you mean is that they can't determine specific pathology until autopsy: Pick's bodies, TDP, Tau, ALS pathology, PSP, etc. and if they conduct a genetic test they can determine the errant gene such as C9orf.
They can and do diagnose ftd with certainty before death, just not the specific type of ftd. There are many.
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I am not proposing everyone's spouse on this site has ftd.
Yes you are. You blantingly told people that MLC does not exist and what there is, is frontotemporal dementia in your own words:
HopeEndures:
There is no such thing as a "Midlife Crisis," but members on this site will tell you otherwise.
However, there is a common but under-recognized brain disorder called frontotemporal dementia that tends to strike people in their 40s to 60s that blows up a perfect family and their happy little world that is wrongly called "midlife crisis" or marital breakdown, or misdiagnosed as depression, stress, anxiety, OCD, ADHD, NPD, late-onset bipolar disorder, schizophrenia or even alcoholism/drug-addiction because of the tendency for some people with the disorder to self medicate./b]
First sign is turning away from their true love since empathy, emotions, morals and inhibitions are first destroyed in this type of dementia, not memory!
Read up on this horrific disease then decide whether you should take your spouse to a neurologist.
I find it worrisome that people on this site accept family breakdown, bankruptcy, destruction of credit, foreclosure, disruption and trauma and then try to gracefully guide others through it. Why aren't you balking?
So, please refrain from saying you dind't say what you said. And look at your last paragraph on that post of yours. So disdainful of us,poor idiots.
And this is the title of one of your threads: "Midlife Crisis" is Brain Disease of the Frontal Lobe" http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=9379.msg615687#msg615687
and also this from that same thread:
"Dear Readers:
As most of you have already mentioned, people in "midlife crisis" all tend to follow the same pattern and script. All of our stories are so similar because in many cases what we are actually witnessing and experiencing are SYMPTOMS of a common but under-recognized brain disorder called frontotemporal dementia that tends to strike people in their 40s to 60s. Please read up on the disease. The behavioral variant has a disinhibited type and an apathetic type. People with the language variant seek out doctors when they start stuttering or misnaming objects, but those with the behavioral variant usually believe there is nothing at all wrong with them. The behavioral and language variants are also sometimes the precursor to motor diseases. "
You also told Chriss:
I agree with you. Your husband is unwell. But his new life is not a new beginning. It will be the death of him.
Really? Do you know Chriss's husband? Are you a neurologist and have done tests on him? And even if you were a neurologist, no serious doctor or health professionals talks in such terms. Even because, there are indeed tests for FTD, but FTD is quite tricky and often a diagnose is wrong. So, telling point that point blank is absurd, let alone on the internet.
A nurse told me the other day that her husband was definitively diagnosed with late-onset bipolar disorder in 2006 at age 38.
Bipolar, being a mood disorder, can be diagnosed at any age. 38 is not late-onset bipolar, it is just bipolar. Bipolar can show when one is 70 or older. Same for depression, of which bipolar is a type with two poles - manic and depressive - and schizophrenia.
It is personality disorders that show in adulthood (aside from early 20's)/middle age/when one is an elder.
Do you even read what we write on your threads and on the board? Because I lost count of how many times it has been said that MLC mimic Bipolar, please note, mimics, not is bipolar, and that bipolar can show up at any age.
"No single diagnostic test exists to confirm or rule out a diagnosis of FTD. This often results in a long and frustrating process of testing for other disorders with symptoms similar to FTD to rule them out. It is not uncommon for an individual’s diagnosis to change multiple times. Each time, however, additional information about the patient is incorporated toward a more accurate diagnosis which the physician can use to recommend treatment."
and "Research is still looking for a definitive test for FTD." both from The Association of Fronotemporal Degeneration: http://www.theaftd.org/understandingftd/diagnosis - I am fairly sure they know what they are talking about.
So, no, there is no definitive test for FTD. Not yet. One day, I am certain there will be. And you can't certainly diagnose anyone with it over the internet.
We may have lived with complete @$$holes all this time, but I doubt it.
On this I agree with you. More, I am certain we haven't. Otherwise none of us would had been surprised with our spouse behaviour. Since we all were, that means they didn't used to be that way.
Don't you think your time will be better spend in a FTD site? Or trying to think about/figure ways of finding a definitive diagnose or even cure for FTD?
We all already know that there is a terrible illness called FTD.
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Bravo Anjae!
Many members have expressed to both bvFTD and Velika our thoughts and concerns of how this impacts, especially new people who are just trying to find their way through this crisis in their families.
If you do not believe in MLC...that's fine with me but pushing your agenda is not helpful to the many of us who do truly believe in MLC.
I am sure we shall keep fighting about this, because for some reason which I fail to understand, you are determined to put a diagnosis on all our spouses of FTD...you can claim that is not your intent, but as Anjae has documented...your words say otherwise.
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Bipolar, being a mood disorder, can be diagnosed at any age. 38 is not late-onset bipolar, it is just bipolar. Bipolar can show when one is 70 or older. Same for depression, of which bipolar is a type with two poles - manic and depressive - and schizophrenia.
This was the case for my xH. His episodes became less depressive as he got older, and psychosis and mania became more prevalent. Most of what would have been red flags to a professional were easily dismissed earlier because things like hypomanic spending looked like irresponsibility because he was young or just hadn't been taught how to budget. Quitting a lot of things, trying on a myriad of identities, all looked like finding himself. Clearly, he is still looking.
We may have lived with complete @$$holes all this time, but I doubt it.
And I too agree with both bv and Anjae. Our 20+ year relationship was very real and true. We're all flawed humans in some ways, and a disorder does not make the years any less worthy of being cherished. I was young myself, and came from a background of brokenness, so I didn't recognize signs earlier. With the objectivity I gained from healing during my stand and charting out major events in our lives without further being disrupted, it was much easier to see that his bipolar diagnosis was spot-on. A crisis at midlife for sure, and certainly not everyone here is experiencing the same thing I am. But I am satisfied to know my truth, and it gives me closure, even though I am no longer in a position to help him directly. I hope that for all of us, in our own ways. I have found though that it's easier to share my experience and hope it reaches others who resonate with it, than to push. We've all been pushed enough.
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You're welcome, Xyzcf.
It was HS that has it documented.
I think I don't like this "I never said (or did) stuff", especially in certain situations.
That was Mr J did to me. And you can bet I went looking for every single piece of evidence he had said/done what he said he hadn't.
And found it.
Mr J, of course, didn't like it and become mad at me, and most likely bvFTD also didn't like it and will be mad at me. So be it.
Ready2, as you know OldPilot's mother has bipolar and she had a MLC. I think it is imporant for people to understand that having bipolar does not preven one from having MLC.
What will happen is that, once MLC goes away, the bipolar would still be there. But at least there are meds for bipolar/ways of dealing with it.
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Ready2, as you know OldPilot's mother has bipolar and she had a MLC. I think it is imporant for people to understand that having bipolar does not preven one from having MLC.
What will happen is that, once MLC goes away, the bipolar would still be there. But at least there are meds for bipolar/ways of dealing with it.
Thank you for reminding me of that. And that's the underlying thing for me - this is a lifetime of treatment he'll have to choose. It's not different from FTD for anyone suffering that - their only recourse is a plan of action that accepts the diagnosis and goes forward from there. But certainly, life doesn't omit anyone from the possibility of breakdowns whether they have a pre-existing condition or not, unfortunately.
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Anjae:
This site made it clear to me that I was to be confined to my own little thread. Please allow me to continue should anyone else wish to follow it.
Thank you.
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bv has politely qualified her statements. She is not insisting that all HS members spouse have bvFTD. Also she is keeping a polite and courteous tone in this discussion and staying within community guidelines.
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If I could make a suggestion bvFTD. A slight tweak of your approach would make all of the difference. If you would perhaps tell us more of your story and what you and your family experienced and how you navigated everything, other posters can choose to follow along and join in with you.
The LBS here are thoughtful, resourceful people who have the intelligence to make up their own minds about what is a fit for their own situations. We have all experienced enormous volumes of people telling us what to do and how to do it. That very rarely works as no one else is walking in our shoes.
Tell us more about you and your story, not about us and our stories.
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Kikki: "A slight tweak in my approach?"
I am not a marionette.
Take care, LBS.
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Respond to that suggestion how you will bvFTD.
If you genuinely want to be a part of this community, it is a collaborative one.
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You're welcome, Ready2.
... their only recourse is a plan of action that accepts the diagnosis and goes forward from there. But certainly, life doesn't omit anyone from the possibility of breakdowns whether they have a pre-existing condition or not, unfortunately.
One should be careful with the diagnosis. You know my cousin that had MLC was diagnosed with every mental illnesss in the book and he has none of them. And also how the meds he was given messed him up to the point of him trying to kill himself in despair.
This site made it clear to me that I was to be confined to my own little thread. Please allow me to continue should anyone else wish to follow it.
I didn't prevent you from continue. I don't have that power, that is for mods, OldPilot and RCR. I went to your own previous threads and posted what you have said. Things that you are now denying you said. As for being confined to our threads, that is what we all do when telling our story.
Also, this is not your personal thread. This thread has a green monster icon. It means it is a Thread about MLC Monster. And even if it was your personal thread, people can post on it.
bv has politely qualified her statements. She is not insisting that all HS members spouse have bvFTD. Also she is keeping a polite and courteous tone in this discussion and staying within community guidelines.
Can you read Velika? Have you read the post from bvFTD previous threads? The quoted and marked things are from posts from bvFTD from her own threads. bvFTD is now in fact saying she had not said what she had. Follow her links, read by yourself.
Tell us more about you and your story, not about us and our stories.
I don't think bvFTD wants to do that, Kikki. She only has this threads, and I am not seeing much of her story.
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=9256.msg606280#msg606280 - "Midlife Crisis" is Brain Disease of the Frontal Lobe
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=9379.msg615687#msg615687 - Bvftd comments
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=9383.msg615915#msg615915 - Re: Is this mlc? Having a rough time... - it has only one page and two postas and is archived and locked.
I am not a marionette.
Nor are we.
And yet, you have been trying to shove something down our throats at any cost, going so far as saying you hadn't said things you have.
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Your assertion is not quite accurate. Neurologists can definitively diagnose ftd before death. I think what you mean is that they can't determine specific pathology until autopsy: Pick's bodies, TDP, Tau, ALS pathology, PSP, etc. and if they conduct a genetic test they can determine the errant gene such as C9orf.
They can and do diagnose ftd with certainty before death, just not the specific type of ftd. There are many.
It's not my assertion, but rather that of the Association for FTD, the Mayo Clinic and other reputable medical experts. What I provided are direct quotes. From Mayo Clinic, for example: "No single test can identify frontotemporal dementia, so doctors attempt to identify certain characteristic features while excluding other possible causes.The disorder can be especially challenging to diagnose as symptoms of frontotemporal dementia often overlap with those of other conditions."
"The current lack of biomarkers for FTD contributes to diagnostic delays and errors.
That said, no one is debating the existence of FTD nor the tragedy of this progressive terminal illness. I'm deeply sorry that your husband, you and family are going through this, bvFTD.
Kikki makes an important point, however, about the value of each person's story and experience. We are not doctors or therapist for the most part and even if some here are, this is not the place for diagnosing others. I have found the people on this board to be thoughtful and intelligent. If a spouse is exhibiting the psychological and physical symptoms of FTD, or any other disease, and an LBS has any influence with their spouse, they will encourage them to pursue medical assistance. It is, however, our spouse's life and our spouse's decision as to what they want to pursue regarding their own wellbeing. One of the hallmarks of MLC is that our spouse does not want our interference or opinions and may do the opposite just to exert their independence, so it can actually backfire and keep a spouse from getting useful help if we pressure.
Phoenix
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Bravo Anjae!
Many members have expressed to both bvFTD and Velika our thoughts and concerns of how this impacts, especially new people who are just trying to find their way through this crisis in their families.
100% agreed.
All said in Anjae's post.
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Kikki: "A slight tweak in my approach?"
I am not a marionette.
Take care, LBS. I'm
I am sorry you feel that way.
It must be horrible to have no control over this disease and the reprucussions that result from it.
I know it is a helpless feeling when my Dad got PSP.
I still think that you and everyone else could benefit from the basic advice that we give.
The cause does not always matter and the LBS still must do the same thing.
JMHO.
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Old Pilot:
No, I have no control over my husband's horrible, vile disease that strikes down people in midlife. But we are working on finding out the cause so we may then find the cure.
I am just so glad I quickly found out the reason WHY he blew up (bomb dropped) our stable, little world of decades so I could tell our children why their daddy suddenly became an @$$hole and I could take steps to protect us all.
Take care, LBS.
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Old Pilot:
You wrote that "the cause doesn't always matter."
Yes it does. Without knowing the cause we won't find the cure.
Love and strength.
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As I said I'm not sure what my X has all I know is he is insane, wish I could get him 'diagnosed' but its too late for that, he was worried that my oldest daughter was going to ruin his 'BIG DAY" doesn't give a damn the hurt he's causing my children just cares about his big day, NOW u tell me if that is the mind of a sane person?
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I completely agree with you, Chriss. His ridiculous declaration, his insistence that it was HIS Big Day sounds so juvenile and selfish. I don't think he cares about anyone else anymore because he is a self-absorbed man-child.
He is not insane, I don't think, but he is sick. He would have never left you, the children and his beautiful life if he were well. You must know that.
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He told my daughter when she called him that day 'u 2 are not to be trusted' I assume he meant my daughter and I :-[
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ChrissYAH, Your H may be acting narcissistic, insensitive, selfish, immature, etc., without being "insane." They also project thier issues on to us and the children. They are untrustworthy, so they accuse others of being so. My husband has not seen his daughter in 7 years and does not even ask about her. But neither have her aunts, uncles and cousins on her father's side, and that's after 25 years together and always having a positive relationship with my husband's side of the family.
None of exH's family is insane or sick. They are likely awkward, uncomfortable, don't know what to say or do, feel caught in the middle, want a relationship with their brother/uncle so accept him and the OW, are compartmentalizers and conflict avoiders like exH, take the path of least resistance, are weak in character, have residual effects from being children of alcoholics, etc.
ExH also is not insane nor was my father, grandfather, nor the myriad other MLCers I have known over decades who still show no signs of insanity/degeneraitive illness, etc. ExH only skims the surface, depth is difficult for him. He is comfortable being a jokster, but can't always face what's serious or what he's responsible for. He shuts down and avoids responsibility. It stems from childhood trauma coping mechanisms and, in some ways, it doesn't surprise me that he's a vanisher. As sad as it is, and especially for D. It fits his avoidance and "flight" tendencies. On the other hand, the rest of his life appears typical including maintaing a relationship with the OW for 7 years, her children living with them half time, maintaining many friendships, hobbies, he purchased and maintains a home, continues to manage a high-level job at an internally respected company with increasing responsibilities.
I can't speak to your individual spouse or situation, but people leave sometimes for reasons other than insanity and terminal illness. Difficult, tragic and unfair things happen to good people, who don't cause or deserve them, every day across the globe. None of this is easy, but the ability to accept what is, comes over time as does the increasing strength and perspective to navigate it all.
Sending you strength,
Phoenix
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Dumping your family and pretending they don't exist is not someone with a sane mind.
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Dumping your family and pretending they don't exist is not someone with a sane mind.
No but MLC is a form of severe depression and that causes all kinds of behaviour.
Many of the Hs on here have just done exactly what has happened to you and I emailed you about a member who had been married for 30+ years, her H BD'd her and D'd her in 6 weeks and married OW the following day. He cut her and their adult children out telling them that he had never loved her and he disowned the children.
This was about 4 years ago and I don't think she posted much after that. I will try and see if I can find her thread for you.
However - none of these spouses on here is sane - none of them- no matter what the cause. That's why we end up here and that's why we seek support and guidance.
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Insanity is not selective. People aren't "insane" in one area of their lives and sane in every other. There are more possibilities, but we have to be willing to look at them and accept them, particularly as time goes by and it's clear the MLCer does not have a serious physical or mental disorder.
Many LBSs start out thinking their spouse must have a brain tumor or be completely losing their mind. The alternative is too painful. But, over a long enough period, that reveals itself not to be true in the majority of cases so sticking with that narrative is not healthy for the LBS's own progress and healing, in the absence of a genuine scientific diagnosis. Many, if not most of us, have asked, "What if my spouse is insane?" At some point, we have to also be able to ask, "What if they are not?"
My father did the same thing and then 35 years later told me that he just wasn't content in his life, he loved my mother, but did not love being married and tied down. He loved his daughters, but did not love being a father. He wanted free of responsibilities except for those he chose for himself and he didn't want to deal with all the upset my mom and sisters and I were going through. He also admitted he and the OW were already unhappy less than two year into their relationship, but they had convinced themselves they were soulmates to such an extent that it was worth blowing up multiple people's lives and they didn't want others to know that they were the cliche everyone told them they would end up being. So for pride or definance or embarassment..they chose to stay together 15 more years. Perhaps because it finally became clear that the grass is not greener and each relationship becomes routine and filled with responsibility over time no matter how new and exciting it all seems in the beginning.
My father eventually (decades later) told my mother and my sisters and me that he regretted what he did and always would, and that he knew it relatively early on, but did not want to do the work to fix it or live with the constant reminders of what he did. It was better for him to set that part of his life off to the side (compartmentalize) and move on and leave us to a life he convinced himself would be better for us.
He had the hallmarks of MLC, but wasn't insane. He was broken in childhood, refused to do the work to address it, carried issues into adulthood where he self-medicated with coping mechanisms such as women/sex and other escapism. He wasn't strong. He wasn't selfless. He wasn't faithful or committed. He develope depression he did not seek help for, but he wasn't insane. Would it have been simpler or easier to believe that he was? Maybe in the beginning, but not over time. I eventually reconciled with my father and he was a very different man with my daughter and a wonderful, loving dedicated grandfather. He finally grew up, got help and became the man that my mother and his daughters deserved, but far too late to save our family or leave us unscarred.
I agree that sometimes diagnosable physical and mental illnesses are initially thought to be something like MLC when they are not, but time reveals. in the majority of cases on this site, that it is not a degenerative mental and physical health issue, but more a crisis of another type, including depression.
Your spouse may have a degenerative mental condition and that will become diagnosable over time if symptoms and brain atrophy progress. In my situation, I know that is not the case because of the amount of time that has passed and the absence of all other symptoms.
Self preservation is one of the strongest motivators humans have. Not only preservation of our physical lives, but the preservation of our view of ourselves. For many MLCers, they are uable to face their actions. Knowing my spouse for 31 years, I am not at all surprised that in the face of all that he has now done, he would rewrite history to justify his behavior and comfort himself with the erroneous narrative that it is D who has abandoned him, rather than the other way around. He is unable to reconcile his need to be seen as a good father and a good man at the same time his actions contradict both. He was never particularly strong or resilient nor even perhaps connected to people in a deep enought way that would tether him there tight enough to withstand a storm such as MLC.
He is not, however, insane. He has his reasons and while they may not be reasons that I would succumb to or find acceptable, he is not me.
I don't debate that your story is different from mine. As much as there are universal themes, every person, every family and every set of circumstances are unique.
I wish you peace, ChrissYAH, and definitive answers for your journey.
Phoenix
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Very good points! Phoenix, I agree so much, and it all comes back to self-focus no matter what because the fallout for us is the same no matter WHAT it is.
Insanity is not selective. People aren't "insane" in one area of their lives and sane in every other. There are more possibilities, but we have to be willing to look at them and accept them, particularly as time goes by and it's clear the MLCer does not have a serious physical or mental disorder.
You do get to a point where "insane" and "illogical" can be differentiated. At first it always seems insane that they are doing these things. But that's from *our* perspective. We really have no way of knowing, especially those of us who find out the affairs had started much earlier than they surfaced, had been planning their inevitable leave. Sometimes people, even non-MLC, ride out kids living home, retirement, etc. so they can do it with as few strings attached. Selfish and unfair all the same, but it's not something we likely haven't seen here on the forum, too.
Just HEAL. Can't cure any diseases, reestablish lives, or raise families if we don't put the oxygen mask on first.
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I think Phoenix makes a good point about time being our friend. Not just in healing but perhaps also in providing answers. (Sometimes directly from the MLCer, as Phoenix points out.)
I think for this reason being aware that other syndromes and diseases can manifest like MLC in the early stages is helpful. If our spouse starts to deteriorate this information might even be lifesaving.
One thing to note is that a person with certain type of mental illness and disorders are able to multitask. This is true of bvFTD where a person in the early stages has an intact memeory and intellectual ability. I was even told that someone with bipolar can do this as well. All to say, our idea of mental illness is often very skewed to the point where even when we are directly observing it, we still have trouble trusting what we intuitively know because we have preconceived ideas about what a "crazy" person behaves like.
Learning about a lot of different topics has helped me to find more ways to see and understand and in a way I hope integrate my experience. This includes spiritual, scientific, psychological, artistic, and personal reflection and inquiry. In a way I feel like this experience takes us to the heart of life and what it means to be a human being. Who could not want to know more about this after what we have been through?
A small tip, since large discussions like this can often end up feeling high stakes. If you are new to this forum and find someone who has a very similar story to you who you really mesh with, it can be very helpful to chat offline. This can make it easier to share personal information and even photos that can often create a more nuanced picture than we are able to depict here for privacy reasons. Sometimes it is these details that can help us see, yes, there is something definitely beyond the temporary insanity of MLC at work there.
I also want to say bv, I think you are brave for posting here and also for reaching out with your story. Learning about FTD has helped me undersrand the brain more and helped me to find more context for my own story. I appreciate anyone who tries in a thoughtful way to introduce new information that may help one, some, or all of us.
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Yes it does. Without knowing the cause we won't find the cure.
I agree. It is important to know the cause to find the cure.
But around here it is normally thought nothing can be done about MLC. I am not so certain. Nothing can be done because no one is truly studying what it is and what causes it. I don't buy the missed development stages or childhood issue. If childhood issues were the cause, pretty much anyone in Africa and Asia was having a MLC. Or in the Middle East. Many of those people had terrible - terrible, what am I saying, horrendous - childhoods, because of war, because of starvation. They have been through things we cannot even imagine. They aren't all, nor most, having a MLC.
uthor=Phoenix link=topic=9379.msg618844#msg618844 date=1506347957]
Insanity is not selective. People aren't "insane" in one area of their lives and sane in every other.
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Insane, or clinically insane is laypeople talk and used, in the US in a legal context, but psychiatrists do not use it. The word used in Portugal is Inimputável (it does not mean insane) - a person whose mental illness ou mental develpment does not allow them to be responsible for their actions, and is not capable of understanding the illegal/wrong action that have commited).
Not everyone that suffers of a mental illness is Ineputável. That would depend of the illness and its severity, and only a psychiatrist, or a body of psychiatrists, can determine is someone is Ineputável.
Mental illness is on a spectrum. People with several mental illnesses can be perfectly normal in some areas of their lives, but not in others. Or not when they are off their meds. So, yes, mental illness is often selective.
Depressed people aren't insane, they are depressed.
Doing insane things and being insane is not the same. MLCers are depressed, depression is an illness.
I was even told that someone with bipolar can do this as well.
Depending of the severy of Bipolar - that as with everything has a spectrum - and if the person is taking the meds, they can.
Time is only a friend of someone with bvFTD, or with any degenerative disease, if a cure is found in the meantime. Otherwise, time only means the person is going to get worst.
And there is a big difference between being a LBS of a MLC and the spouse of a person with a degenerative disease.
Those of you that live in the US are used to serial killers and mass shooters. Many of those people, especially mass shooters, lead perfectably normal lives. No one suspected them until they did their horrible act. And what one often hears people say is how nice and normal those people were. If they were "insane", others had noticed, but no one did. And, yet, those people are deeply troubled and have some serious mental, at times even neurological, issues.
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I don't buy the missed development stages or childhood issue. If childhood issues were the cause, pretty much anyone in Africa and Asia was having a MLC. Or in the Middle East. Many of those people had terrible - terrible, what am I saying, horrendous - childhoods, because of war, because of starvation. They have been through things we cannot even imagine. They aren't all, nor most, having a MLC.
But how do you know they aren't having an MLC? And I think there is a huge difference between childhood abuse perpetuated by FOO and being the victim of an enemy in a war where your parents may still do their best to protect you, or a famine, where there is no obvious human abuser and the parents may still show love and care in spite of their adverse circumstances.
I'd say rates of MLC are very very high in the Middle East and Africa, but not necessarily due to war and famine, but maybe you just don't know what to look for to recognize the tell tale signs of it and because the members here aren't from those places. In fact, I think in many African and Middle Eastern countries, there are social and legal differences that make it a lot easier to have and get away with an MLC, especially as a man.
I regularly correspond here with at least 3 other members whose husbands whose childhood abuse or neglect by family members is a huge part of their MLC and whose husbands come from 3 different continents than my own husband or yours. Maybe you don't see it in your own husband's case because you don't know enough about his background or because he is gone, but those of us who do, it's so in your face as to be glaringly and overwhelmingly obvious. It seems your husband hasn't come out of it yet either so maybe it is something else in his case.
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I think Goner is absolutely correct. I think it is extremely noteworthy the high levels of reported childhood abuse on this forum.
Childhood abuse is also a correlation to NPD. The confusing thing for many of us is that NPD did not seem to be evident in our pre-MLC spouses and many times our spouses do things that do not seem consistent for an image-conscious NPD. (E.g. leaving attractive spouse for affair down.)
I read that if the ventromedial prefrontal cortex is impaired a person has trouble regulating PTSD. This might offer a partial neurological explanation as to what could happen in MLC. (If you read about ventromedial prefrontal cortex lesions you have pretty much an exact description of MLC, FWIW. When I called UCSF I was told that vmpf is involved in bvFTD as well.
Goner also makes important point that how a person carries out a MLC may be at least partially dictated by their cultural environment. There was an interesting discussion about this once where a poster mentioned her uncle had a MLC and spent about three years in ashrams. In some countries/cultures legal polygamy might disguise a MLC. In other places where affairs have less stigma a person in MLC might not divorce the spouse but instead carry on a long-term liaison. In some places where prostitution is rampant, this may disguise the problem somewhat.
It's very sad. MLC or whatever this is, is heartbreaking.
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Childhood abuse is also a correlation to NPD. The confusing thing for many of us is that NPD did not seem to be evident in our pre-MLC spouses and many times our spouses do things that do not seem consistent for an image-conscious NPD. (E.g. leaving attractive spouse for affair down.)
I like that you said, "seem to be," because I think as some of us progress on we can objectively look back and see patterns where things weren't quite balanced. My xH's father is textbook NPD and it was unbearable. The whole family's life is centered around it, which is why I think so many of them are disordered. But with my xH, he definitely didn't present in the same way, but there were some tendencies that I think were learned.
Throughout our dating life, if I GAL'ed (my first full-time job, college, normal things), he would quickly find other women to give him attention. Cheating? I have no way to know now. But he was someone who couldn't be without some sort of narc feed, and he didn't look for it from other men.
He was controlling in the same way as his father when it came to being the "driver" (even when I had a working vehicle, most of the time he would taxi me everywhere and even with friends, stay on as a third wheel so he know what I was doing, or set a strict "pick up" time like a parent).
By the time of BD, I had no local friends and his family were the only people I socialized with, which was not positive for me. I think that's a form of isolation we see a lot around here, too, without realizing it. Because it doesn't feel malicious! We were best friends. I had a car accident in 1997, so anytime after that I didn't have to drive I had less anxiety. He was *helping*. He stays in the room while I'm having band practice with my friends because he loves the music, right? He has a great ear and can help us get better. ::) You accommodate until they walk out and you're left with nothing of your own.
Not saying my xH *is* a narc, because he has only ever been diagnosed bipolar. But I've benefited from some of the narc abuse gurus' work online that give direction on how to heal from that.
And I've learned from that too that the affair down concept still carries over. It isn't always about attractiveness as much as it is about who they are getting more adoration from, while putting in less effort. LBSs hold spouses accountable - narcs and/or MLCers don't get a feed from that.
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But how do you know they aren't having an MLC?
For a start, because they can't afford to. Most people in Africa and Asia cannot afford to leave the lives they lead, let alone having a MLC.
And I think there is a huge difference between childhood abuse perpetuated by FOO and being the victim of an enemy in a war where your parents may still do their best to protect you, or a famine, where there is no obvious human abuser and the parents may still show love and care in spite of their adverse circumstances.
Many of the children under war, especially in Africa, have no parents. And they are often abused by those who look after them. And, how do you think the girls taken by Boko Haram and the likes were treated even if they have parents?
The surviving/returning ones, ff they were American they would all be in therapy and with issues for the rest of their lives. And, probably, when adults, having a MLC. But they are poor and African, so, the lucky ones that return just carry on with their lives.
Of course there is MLC in Asia and Africa, among the handful of rich people that lead a Western lifestyle.
Did you ever come across anyone on this site who had a MLCer who couldn't afford his/her crisis? I haven't. Nor in real life. MLCers are people that can afford having a MLC. In fact, MLC seems to be a problem/illness of afluence. We have old threads where we debate it.
If childhood abuse was the cause of MLC everyone that has been abused in childhood would be having a MLC. They aren't. I wasn't abused or neglected as a child and have had a MLC. My cousin who had a MLC was not abused of neglected. Nor was Mr J. Nor any of the real life MLCers I know.
And I don't think most here have an abused MLCer. At least, that is not what I recall from the more than 4000 single users HS has. LBS on HS with abused MLCers may stand out, but not all LBS on HS have MLCers that were abused.
Maybe you don't see it in your own husband's case because you don't know enough about his background or because he is gone, but those of us who do, it's so in your face as to be glaringly and overwhelmingly obvious.
I know my husban's background back to the XIII century - yes, you are reading it right, XIII century. I would say that is backgroud enough. And would also say you have never read my threads nor are familiar with what I have posted about my husband. Otherwise, you would know I know is more close background well enough to know what is problem regarding MLC may be - FIL was a womanizer, who started getting misstresses when MIL was pregnant with Mr J.
A man having mistresses was normal by then around here. No one would care. Wife was for having children and stay home, mistress to sleep with and take out.
However, I fail to see how cheating on his own wife is going to solve Mr J's problem with his dad or whatever. Mr J's MLC actions are only making it much worst for him. And solving nothing.
Mr J is gone, but we were together since he was 17 and for 20 years afterwards. I know all that there is is to known about him. I can tell you that there was no abuse and no neglect.
The only think obvious to me about Mr J and his crisis is that he was depressed. And that, since he left, he drinks and drinks and drinks. And is always out clubbing and djing.
And that, of course, he can more than afford to have his MLC. When it ends he still has the family property and money to inherit. In the meanwhile, he makes enough to blow and he blew all the money we had.
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Did you ever come across anyone on this site who had a MLCer who couldn't afford his/her crisis? I haven't. Nor in real life. MLCers are people that can afford having a MLC. In fact, MLC seems to be a problem/illness of afluence. We have old threads where we debate it.
This is not completely accurate though. There are some people here who would be considered below the poverty line in the western world. My xH had not worked for years at the time of BD, and we were living on loans from my father and credit cards because my work alone could not keep up with his lifestyle. After he left the business took off in a much bigger way, which is what helped me personally, but the years of the recession were from hand to mouth. I bring it up lest anyone else posting here feel they don't belong if they are in a paycheck-to-paycheck situation where a spouse is a bull in a china shop regardless of how little sense that makes.
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There are some people here who would be considered below the poverty line in the western world.
I think you mean in the US. My cousins who live in the US say that those who make less than 49 thousand dolares a year are poor in the US. A Portuguese who makes 49 thousand euros a year is very, very well off.
I think people on HS do not know how much is minimum wage in Portugal. Currently it is 530 euros gross. I always smile when I see people in the US saying 7 or 10 dolares an hour is low. Try getting 7 or 10 euros an hour in Portugal. Portugal is not Germany or Sweden, not even, when it comes to wages Greece, but we are all part ot the European Union = Western World.
Poor people do not have credit cards in Portugal (nor in many other places in the world). And poor people do not have a dad that can loan them money. Nor do they own homes/have mortgages.
Most people in Portugal live paycheck to paycheck. With our wages that is no surprise.
I think our concept of poor is different. For me poor is poor. No money, no credit card, no loan from dad, nothing.
When I read around the threads I normally see big or nice houses, cars, thousands of dolares being mentioned, etc. I have not come across anyone here that was poor poor. Or, at least, not in my concept of poor.
Regardless, Hoss has been able to afford his crisis, hasn't he? You were the one left with financial problems. He is out there living his MLC life. He may not be one of the most well off MLCers, but he can afford his crisis manias.
To leave it clear, I said the MLCer can afford the crisis. Not that the couple or the LBS can afford the MLCer crisis. Because the MLCer will even take what the couple/LBS & children would need to afford they crisis. They don't care.
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With all due respect Anjae, I don't think you meant for that to come off as crass. I understand the image the rest of the world has of the USA is probably that of entitlement right now. But there are plenty of people (myself included) who weren't just skipping salon appointments because of the MLC spending. When I say borrowed money from my dad, he is a pensioner, not a wealthy benefactor. I mean I had no food. I stretched a few cans of vegetables and a loaf of bread for weeks after he left. I had a mortgage, yes, that was acquired during better times, but it went into pre-foreclosure more times than I can count. I was on the brink of homelessness up until this year. I don't want to call out individuals who may not want their names mentioned (and some no longer post here), but I know of LBSs who had to go on welfare to feed their kids and at least one and their MLCer moved in with their children when they were evicted from their home.
I get what you mean - I do - but I am not referring to people who were discomforted by MLC, who had to buy used cars instead of a new one, etc. I don't think, based on our own discussions of the neurochemical background of MLC over the years, that it discriminates against the poor. In fact, I can think of nothing more cortisol-inducing than poverty. All of us LBSs are equals in the face of its wrath, which is why the topic doesn't come up very much.
Yes, Hoss continues to use people and I am freshly bankrupt. Where he is not rich, he continues to be resourceful.
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The US have always seemed entitled before the rest of the world, not just now.
And it is not untrue that wages are much higher in the US than in many parts of the world. Many people want to go for America for a reason, make good money and, if possible, live the American dream.
I know your dad is a pensioner and not a wealthy benefactor. But he still had the money to help. I am not saying your dad is rich, just that he could help. Just like my grandmother, also a pensioner, was still able to help me.
But you are talking about you and other LBS, I was talking about the MLCer. It is on my previous post: "To leave it clear, I said the MLCer can afford the crisis. Not that the couple or the LBS can afford the MLCer crisis. Because the MLCer will even take what the couple/LBS & children would need to afford they crisis. They don't care."
Yes, Hoss continues to use people and I am freshly bankrupt. Where he is not rich, he continues to be resourceful.
This is another example how the MLCer will make it. Because they always find a way.
In Portugal, poor people seem to turn to cheap wine - and the younger ones, to drugs, at a very early age. Not to MLC.
Poor people are used to have nothing or very little, and would be glad to have, in every way, what our MLCers had. But it was not enough for our MLCers. Be it the love, the money, the house, whatever. Nothing of what they had was enough for a MLCer.
In a way, MLCers are very ungrateful people. And people who don't even get that others have it far, far worst than them.
All poor people want is to stop being poor and have a nice/good life. MLcers want to destroy the nice/good life they have.
We have talked about this before, MLC seems to be a disease or di-sease of affluence/Western way of life were only material stuff and status counts.
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I am American but didn't grow up in the States. I have also spent time living in two European countries and traveled a lot in Asia.
I would actually venture to say that it is the lack of social support, social cohesion, and community that might lead to a MLC among Americans, not an excess of wealth.* **
* Caveat that I think there is still some type of biological cause/susceptibility at play.
** Interesting side note that I met a homeopathic doctor last week who pointed out that Lyme and Chronic Fatigue Syndrome tend to be prevalent in the same geographical regions. If MLC is inflammation-based this is interesting and noteworthy and may offer an alternate explanation as to why it might be more prevalent in some parts of the country/world.
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I would actually venture to say that it is the lack of social support, social cohesion, and community that might lead to a MLC among Americans, not an excess of wealth.* **
It could be. But Americans aren's the only ones having a MLC. Several here are (or their MLCers are) from Canada Europe, Australia or New Zealand, to name a few,
When it comes to some European cities there also isn't much of a sense of community and as for social cohesion, Europe is super devided at the moment - we're lucky if another war does't break out soon. Not sure if you guys know how on fire things are at the moment in Europe -, and has been for several years, and, in cases, decades.
I don't know about social support. If you are talking state one, EU countries, at least some of them, have a good one. Neighbourhood level one has been eroding more and more.
Maybe the problem is not so much wealth of any sort in itself, but never being satisfied? That seems to be the case with MLCers.
* Caveat that I think there is still some type of biological cause/susceptibility at play.
So do I. But become super stressed and depressed because one thinks what one has is not enough, or because one is been over working to have tons of irrelevant things, ends up being a neurologic cause since burnout comes from excessive stress and depression is neurologic.
MLC, like other things/illnesses could have several causes. For example, pneumonia may be caused by viruses, bacteria, or fungi or, to a lesser degree, by other factors.
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Anjae-You make it sound like MLC is the new white man's burden. ::)
As for your stereotyping all Africans and Asians as "too poor" to have an MLC, I read a very interesting article recently about how Angolans have been propping up the Portuguese economy for years.
If men can't afford to have two women in Africa, then how do you explain the fact that in Senegal, where the GDP per capita is a little over $1000 a year, half the marriages are polygamous?
Maybe in your country poor people get drunk, but in the rest of the world life is very different and people deal with their poverty in different ways. I mean for a poor man, more women, can mean more kids, can mean more hands to send out to work and earn money to support the household...Do you really think poverty encourages monogamy????
As for abuse in childhood, there was a poll on here a few months ago, and last I saw of it, about 80% of respondents said their MLCer had been abused as a child. And there was no option on the poll for "I don't know" and I suspect in some cases the LBS doesn't really know because the MLCer has kept it hidden from everyone. So the rate of abuse may be much higher than 80%
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I would actually venture to say that it is the lack of social support, social cohesion, and community that might lead to a MLC among Americans, not an excess of wealth.* **
I'm not going to disagree with you, but I would say it is the opposite that led to MLC in my husband. His MLC fantasies suddenly appeared when he went home for a family funeral and spent a week sitting with men who had achieved in life what he hadn't and I am sure every single one of them was asking him why not and what he was going to do about it. And we live in a very conformist society where what others think about you is very important and people think it is their business to stick their nose in your business and tell you what to do. And we were living away from all that until his MLC became full blown and he was never the kind to succumb to any social pressure until he was put in the middle of it by moving home to his hometown. He will never admit it was social pressure that made him do what he did but if their parents have sway over them after all these years even sometimes the parents are dead, then of course it's not so hard to imagine social pressure being hard for them to resist. And he still hasn't achieved what all the other men have and I have heard people asking him about it on the phone so I imagine he is under pressure every day from his peers, which is just fueling his MLC further.
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X snapped one day after he had come from a funeral, although before that he was a mess and of course everything was my fault, anyway he's married now to her so no matter, I hope to NEVER see him again.
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Thunder:
I am an observer on this site and I have noticed you are often the first one to respond to anyone who finds this site. You quickly tell people we will never understand what they have done and dismiss their cruelty as MLC antics.
You also have a quote underneath your name from an apparent MLCer that blames the spouse for not letting go. "From my experience, if (I will paraphrase now) spouse had only let me go earlier and stopped pressuring me I would have returned earlier."
Thunder: Please attribute the quote to who made it. What is her or his name?
What I will say is: Try to get your spouse to a doctor, a psychiatrist or a neurologist.
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I am sorry Sam A, I am going to hijack your thread:
bvFTD:
Thunder:
I am an observer on this site and I have noticed you are often the first one to respond to anyone who finds this site. You quickly tell people we will never understand what they have done and dismiss their cruelty as MLC antics.
SamA first posted on HS May 11, 2017 so is not new to this site. BD was 2.5 years ago.
This is a site where people come to to find out about MLC. That is why they are here. If they wish to look at other reasons for MLC, they would go to another site. It is easily done in this day and age with goggle. But people are here because the concept of MLC resonates with what they are experiencing.
Thunder has many many years of experience with this. She is very capable of giving information and advice to anyone who is interested in understanding what happens with MLC.
You also have a quote underneath your name from an apparent MLCer that blames the spouse for not letting go. "From my experience, if (I will paraphrase now) spouse had only let me go earlier and stopped pressuring me I would have returned earlier."
Thunder: Please attribute the quote to who made it. What is her or his name?
I am curious...why are you asking this on SamA's thread..perhaps address Thunder directly. In reality, it doesn't matter who said this...obviously Thunder feels this is an important quote, regardless of who said it.
What I will say is: Try to get your spouse to a doctor, a psychiatrist or a neurologist.
Try all you want. As many members have stated over and over again, we cannot force someone to go see a doctor. Many MLCers are under a doctor's care. Many come out of their crisis and do not have any persistent or deteriorating pathology.
I am really unsure of the purpose of your comments which have nothing to do with SamA's situation and does not support the idea of MLC which is why our posters come to HS.
Again SamA, I apologize for hijacking your thread.
bvFTD, if you wish to respond to my comments, please take them to your specific thread and do not allow this thread to be taken over by your own agenda once again.
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xyzcf:
It is almost as if you are ON ALERT should I comment. Does an alarm bell ring? You should not have hijacked Sam's thread nor chastised me for my comment. Please remind yourself of the Hero Spouse's Mission Statement.
Thank you.
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Posts moved here as per original thread owners request.
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xyzcf:
It is almost as if you are ON ALERT should I comment. Does an alarm bell ring? You should not have hijacked Sam's thread nor chastised me for my comment. Please remind yourself of the Hero Spouse's Mission Statement.
Thank you.
And perhaps you may wish to remind yourself of the Legal Disclaimer?
Legal Disclaimer
The information contained within The Hero's Spouse website family (www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com, http://theherosspouse.com and associated subdomains), (collectively 'website') is provided as general information and is not intended to be a substitute for professional legal, medical or mental health advice or treatment for specific medical conditions. The Hero's Spouse cannot be held responsible for the use of the information provided. The Hero's Spouse recommends that you consult a trained medical or mental health professional before making any decision regarding treatment of yourself or others. The Hero's Spouse recommends that you consult a legal professional for specific legal advice.
Any information, stories, examples, articles, or testimonials on this website do not constitute a guarantee, or prediction regarding the outcome of an individual situation. Reading and/or posting at this website does not constitute a professional relationship between you and the website author, volunteer moderators or mentors or other community members. The moderators and mentors are peer-volunteers, and not functioning in a professional capacity and are therefore offering support and advice based solely upon their own experience and not upon legal, medical, or mental health training.
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bv comments support the legal disclaimer. She is advocating seeking support from medical professionals.
I think her comments about mixed message are also fair. People often come to this site looking for a reason to have hope. They receive a complex message that there is nothing you can do but there is a right way to do it. While MLC and advice have its own unique logic and this has a type of general value, I think in many specific cases and for someone new to this, the advice is too subtle.
I think many LBS would actually be better off with a legal separation if not a divorce from the get-go. I also think most should call their spouse's doctor to alert them of radical change in personality and behavior.
Will this have the effect of a full screening and diagnosis? Possibly not. If your spouse's condition worstens will you then have a record of when you first notified the doctor? Yes.
I am actually glad to be divorced now. I feel more protected with a legal agreement. I wish I had called my FH doctor and pushed harder for medical screening right away, but I admit I am saying this now not because to save the marriage but perhaps to help my FH and protect him from himself if at all possible.
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I understand what you are saying, Velika, and each LBS definitely has to make his or her own decisions about whether and when to divorce. In my case, it would have been far worse for D and me, financially and otherwise, until she was out of school and during several medical situations where I desperately needed H's much better health insurance, but each case is uniquie.
I'm not sure if you reside in the US, but a therapist or a doctor would never allow a spouse to call and speak to them about a patient. I can't even do that in regards to my daughter without her first granting permission for her doctor to speak to me without her knowledge. And legal adults (over age 18 in the US) have the right to make their own decisions about what tests and screenings they want unless they are genuinely so incapacitated that a court grants that authority to another person.
Even my neighbor with a 19-year-old autistic son has to speak to his doctors in front of him at all times, and is not always allowed in the room (and never during counseling) because he is considered high enough functioning though he could never live indepedently.
Even if I was to have called and "alerted" H's doctor of a change in personality, this would have had no bearing. As completely bizarre as H acted in front of me, he held it together just fine in front of others (and 7 years later, still does) and his doctor would have thought I was a woman scorned trying to make him seem crazy. If anything it would have given credence to others about why H wanted to leave. As difficult as it may be not to have control, we don't. However, if a degenerative issue is at play, either a spouse will choose to get help or it will naturally progress to a point that it's obvious to other family, co-workers, etc. that they need help. It may not be ideal, but this is what the law is in many places which is why it only adds to the stress, and maybe guilt, to tell an LBS they have to get a spouse to an neurologist or other doctor. That can't be done against their will in many places.
I agree that people should consider possibilities when a loved one has sudden and drastic changes in personality, but--depending on the laws and policies in each area--this does not mean that the spouse has any say or influence in the situation other than to broach the topic with their spouse in the hope he or she might choose to look into it.
Phoenix
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Phoenix, yes -- you are correct that an adult must seek medical treatment voluntarily barring certain circumstances, and also that privacy laws would prevent doctors from discussing the case with an unauthorized person.
My lawyer gave me the green light to call my FH doctor when I regained her (about eight months in). The doctor's office told me they could listen but not comment. They actually showed a lot of interest. So I would recommend to anyone who arrives here to at least say, "Hey, my spouse has suddenly changed. This is the family history. These are the medications." Just a simple alert.
I wished I had called right away for two reasons. One we were not yet separated and two my FH was taking an SSRI with warning to report sudden changes in behavior and personality. I think at the very least the doctor might have review the medication, especially if I had shared family history. At the time I had never heard of MLC, FTD and only had vague understanding of how the brain worked etc. I had no idea what bipolar could look like.
I suspect my FH will, like yours, kind of continue on. I don't envision him having a spectacular crash or breakdown, but I also wonder at times if he will keep his job and doubt he will ever be the same person I once knew. I am basing this largely on his family history, not what I read here, because I think truthfully this is the best predictor of what will happen to any one of our given cases.
I never wanted to get a divorce -- but I feel quite strongly the person I once knew and loved is "gone." So speaking to my own experience, protecting yourself financially, getting expert advice, and not accepting a certain level of treatment has been empowering.
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In the end, we can only make predictions based on how well they match known patterns. In my husband's case I see no matching of bvFTD patterns, but I do have to say he has followed what HB has written almost to a T. I read her articles every day, different ones depending on what is going on, and it is downright amazing how well she nails it.
I used to think my H would never come out of this and would get stuck in endless replay but he's now come over the hump of replay and is in the part of replay where the mask starts to slip off of OW and he starts to see me as the greener grass. I do believe MLC is an illness, but not bvFTD, and that no matter what my husband thought he wanted or needed or was going to do, the illness has its own momentum that will push him down a path NOT of his choosing.
That's why I see no point in divorce. I want my husband back and so far I see no reason to believe that isn't possible.
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New thread
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=9447.0