Midlife Crisis: Support for Left Behind Spouses
Archives => Archived Topics => Topic started by: Jackolar12 on November 10, 2019, 12:50:59 PM
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Hey Shock Sis, I had some time to work on my theory of the menopause contributing to the midlife crisis today. I know you said you went through it some years later, but read this snippet below.
If your menopause was diagnosed within the 5 years of your MLC ending you would probably have been in peri menopause during that crazy time and suffering from peri depression. It would also in part explain your compulsion/need to follow the process as your hormones were changing together with your brain functioning and biology, you really would have had to do it as it was out of your control.
Without the proper diagnosis which you will read is difficult hormone replacement might have eased your compulsions. I may be wrong but if there’s some of this is applicable to your situation I would like to know. I will leave you read your study now hehe.
Kind regards
Jack
Diagnostic difficulties
The World Health Organization defines the perimenopause as ‘the time immediately preceding the menopause, beginning with endocrine, biologic and clinical changes, and ending a year after the final menstrual period’.
The diagnosis of peri menopausal depression is therefore often made retrospectively. To complicate matters the physical symptoms of the menopause often present much later (up to five years) than the psychological symptoms. This delay can make the diagnosis of perimenopausal depression very difficult.
It is important for health professionals to consider whether women who experience depressive anxiety symptoms for the first time in their mid-40s are actually experiencing depression related to the perimenopausal hormone fluctuations. Similarly, women who experience an exacerbation of a previously well-controlled depression may also be experiencing a perimenopausal relapse.
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Jack
I think you think peri/menopause is worse than it really is. Not that it’s necessarily fun, but it’s not like the Grim Reaper shows up either.
IMO it is separate and succinct from MLC.
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Hi Jack
I still don’t think menopause or peri menopause had the slightest thing to do with my MLC. I’m sorry but I absolutely don’t. I know it’s roots were laid down a very long time ago and over time I had suppressed so much for so long that it was a ticking time bomb.
I know it had absolutely nothing to do with my ex h and entirely everything to do with my issues.
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I still don’t think menopause or peri menopause had the slightest thing to do with my MLC.
I'm with you SS. All women go through menopause and peri-menopause - 100%. What % will go through a mid-life crisis? 10%,, maybe 15%. idk but not even close to 100%.
From what I've read, the MLC hits most women between 35 - 40 yr. Long before the appearance of menopause (typically around 50 - 53) or even peri-menopause (typically 5 yrs before menopause). What about the women who go through instant menopause when they have a hysterectomy? What % of those women have a MLC? Probably no more than the usual average which is quite low.
Jackolar,,, I'm sorry but I too, think you are barking up the wrong tree.
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Hi Shock Sis, it was just a thought that it might have had some influence in your situation, as we all know MLC is made up of so many factors pertaining to the individual it makes your head spin thinking about it. Although you have clearly identified your particular triggers others may have not worked it out as you have as you seem very self aware.
At least you can begin to heal knowing the roots of your crisis. Your making great progress and being very helpful to us as we try to understand our situations. It would be great if more recovered Mlcers would visit us as we would get a bigger picture of what’s driving it in others and gain increased understanding and healing. It would also give your typing fingers a chance to cool down with so many posts I bet their glowing.
Kind regards
Jack
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Hi Anon, thank you for your view point here’s the age range of meno in the USA. As the symptoms appear earlier I would suggest early to mid forties for peri also a prime time for MLC in women. Certainly it might contribute in a small percentage but I’m not suggesting in 100%. Of course there’s always outliers either side of the average, earlier and later than 51 years.
There’s also of an example of another woman’s plight, I bet she wishes she had a dog barking in her life prior to meno. Education around this time could save many marriages. She doesn’t mention MLC at all which suggests that may be some here are suffering due to the menopause.
“In the United States, the mean age of menopause, the occurrence of the final menstrual period, is 51 years. However, the menopausal transition may begin up to a decade before the menopause; the average duration of menopausal symptoms is 4-8 years. In other words, some women will be facing physical and emotional changes over the course of several years, until they finally reach menopause.”
Here’s a later age range example:
Menopause“I was happily married to a wonderful husband for 15 years. I became perimenopausal at 49. I became depressed, had an affair, filed for divorce. It’s been a year now and I’m alone and very depressed. I went from a happy, loving wife to someone completely unrecognizable. Now I’m starting to understand the effects of hormones on my behavior.” quotes ( patient forum First for women Updated: Jul 27, 2018) https://www.firstforwomen.com/posts/perimenopause-midlife-crisis-150976
There’s examples of these first hand qualitative reports from females scattered through out menopause related forums, their stories are eerily similar just like our MLC ones are. Most academic reports I have found are targeted at the effects of treatment methods during the menopause and are funded mostly by big pharmaceutical companies. They are not targeted at the social effects of this life phase or links to MLC, there are however links to mental illness during this time.
Are your figures of 10-15% backed by research, if so I would like to see these figures for myself as I believe they relate to the 60-70s and are now much higher. Academic research in this area is sparse and if anyone has accredited reports or even better meta- analysis please forward them to me as I can’t walk very far or drive right now to get to the university to use their library.
Kind regards
Jack
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Hi Anon, I suggest these figures are more inline at this time. It’s more prolific than people can imagine, it’s growing, women are leading the way and there’s just not enough education out there.
Jack
“By age 50, even more women than men are reporting a turbulent midlife transition -- 36.1% of women, compared with 34% of men -- according to research by Elaine Wethington, a Cornell University associate professor, based on a subset of the giant 6,432-person MacArthur Foundation "Midlife in the United States" study of Americans' well-being at midlife.
Applying the findings to the 42-million-member generation of U.S. women who are nearing or in middle age, defined as about 38 to 55 years old, more than 15 million women will have, or are already having, what they regard as a midlife crisis -- about equal to the entire populations of Colorado, Massachusetts and Minnesota combined.”
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Hello Jackolar
Shock and awe here,
My big problem with this hypothesis is what is the ratio of women to men currently in MLC and how many can be attributed to menopause or andropause?
To my mind there are way too many variables to nail it down to this.
I’m not saying there are no cases attributed to it but in the cases of my parents, my sister and myself I can’t attach it to any of them.
Of the 3 cases I am personally familiar with only one had the female in MLC the other two, my h and my father, are obviously male.
It would be interesting indeed to learn the ratio of men to women in MLC and if it’s similar globally as in is it a western culture phenomenon?
I for one don’t think it’s anything to do with menopause.
God bless you all
Shock and awe
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Hi Shock and Awe, good questions and if the qualitative studies I have demonstrated are to be believed wethingtons suggestions of around 36% in women and 34% of men are in turbulence, it doesn’t mention crisis because it’s a myth isn’t it .....or is it.
There’s much to be identified within this life phase and I agree there’s too many variables but there are themes like depression, fear of aging and why not the menopause/Andropause as a contributing element, it happens around the same time and it’s science based not myth.
I wish I could tell you the percentage based on the Male/ Female menopause but I haven’t found them as yet and only a few reports of some substance regarding crisis. I can think of my former wife and several others that might be menopause related and when the Meno/ Andropause clashes with MLC it could be an ingredient involved in the disaster. Still it’s good to hear others opinions as they open new avenues to explore.
Kind regards
Jack
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Jack from my experience of my H. I believe he had a change in hormones around what I witnessed as the beginning of the MLC around 3 years ago. I am not sure about now but knowing this man for over 30 years I would say amongst other things his hormones changed.
I’m not sure if this is a good example or not but if you know TV show ‘Friends’ character Joey who loves ladies it would be like Joey living like that for another 20 years and then almost overnight him not noticing ladies or having any interest like he did. I am not saying my H was as extreme as that but just hope it’s an example people can relate to and that it doesn’t cause offence.
Or maybe it was part of his depression and was empty inside. Or maybe one is linked to the other but it was like he lost all his testosterone and became a shell of a man.
Rose 🌹
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That’s a positive Rosetintedglasses, I haven’t done much on the Male Andropause as in my disaster movie a female had the leading role. Perhaps one of you ladies might want to look into the Andropause and possible links as a component to MLC.
It’s better done by different genders as there’s less observer bias by the researcher. Perhaps a group of you doing it as the research can be very time consuming. I spent 6 hours and 40 minutes last week on research and different forums I either visit or answer questions on daily so it gobbles up your time.
If there’s enough interest and support for the theory I can search for more self reports from people going through this phase who attribute their marriages being destroyed by the menopause in either gender. We can then debate if this applies to MLC. It would be better if these were academic reports so if anyone has any please send the link to me.
Kind regards
Jack
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Jackolar, I would totally love it if you or mods would split the thread off into a separate examination of menopause or andropause. I also think it would be helpful if you share more there about andropause, being that you are male and can speak to that experience firsthand and with authority.
I don’t mind telling you gently, but with conviction, that not even the premier female physicians and mental health experts can speak on menopause with any authority at all. It is a highly individual and highly subjective internal experience, and only the woman going through it herself can speak on it. And that’s only if she can find the words, because some of it is deep enough so as to be verbally inexpressible.
The midlife transitions are not just of the body or of the mind. They are of the soul and spirit as well, and no statistician, physician, or psychologist is going to ever put together a study or report that captures it all. We are talking about the universe of the individual body and the many galaxies within the individual’s mind and various life histories, all true and yet some histories possibly now obsolete or no longer needed or relevant. To that end, the only real explanation we can have or give is our very own individual one.
For sure, square in what I think is likely my final year of perimenopause or indeed early in first year of actual menopause, your dogged focus on a — or any, or every — woman’s natural inescapable God-given reproductive system processes MAKES ME FEEL UNCOMFORTABLE, SAD, ANGRY, AND NERVOUS.
And I don’t mean I don’t like you or don’t value your interest or curiosity here. I do mean that as a man, it’s better for me as a woman navigating this strange and unexpectedly uncomfortable life passage that you back off a bit and maybe stay out of it. No man on earth is going to understand the full import of what peri or full menopause means in a woman’s mind, heart, body, and life.
It’s like you trying to grasp what we feel during a menstrual cycle. No matter how many girls and women you have witnessed or read about or cared for or taken heat from, you just are not ever going to know what any She herself is feeling, experiencing, and enduring.
That’s Her body and heart and mind, with all it’s mysteries and confusions and strengths.
From you, I want to hear more about Yours. Your gift of study and curiosity can be more powerful and better informed as you use it to speak of all things He and His, Me, Mine.
Thanks for listening, apologies for the derail, and a promise that these words are not driven by menopause or even femaleness but honestly just to acknowledge and communicate that it’s possible some clarity or redirect is needed here.
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Jackolar, I would totally love it if you or mods would split the thread off into a separate examination of menopause or andropause.
I agree with this primarily because it’s a discussion that should have its own thread apart from Shock Sis story.
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Terra with all due respect as a fellow member, I believe that my ex wife, that I dearly loved had either an MLC or menopausal change of character or both. I’m simply trying to find out which was the most likely and if one influenced the other. I am sure that others want to find out why their significant others derailed too and try to get closure do you say the same things to them.
My questions are specifically for shock Sis as a recovered Mlcer and not generalised across the board to every woman who goes through this natural process that hasn’t had a crisis on this site as there’s no point. If some have had both I’m all ears though.
I’m simply trying to find out if there may be links between MLC and Menopause as I haven’t found a great deal of academic research on it to date and what’s there are big Pharma orientated.think I posted one I found a few posts back in answer to another poster in support of the “no link camp”. Sure others intervene and I try to answer them as best I can. As long as their respectful that is.
I can get the flavour from some posters comments on this subject that meno might be a little unsettling to some going through meno around this time and perhaps also a man might not understand this time of change, so I have held off starting a thread as I mentioned to another who posted recently and intervened in my question again specifically for Shock Sis.
This site is predominantly female after all. But you can start one if you wish on the Male menopause which I believe I’m in at the moment and I will try to help answering questions. But I haven’t had an MLC so I see no point on an MLC related topic.
Shock Sis has been so helpful to me in trying to find out and in her case the menopause did not contribute to her MLC. It’s been great having her here and I wish there were more like her. She’s on a mission to help us understand and is a star.
I have now enquired about fears during this time as the MLC May be driven by fears of some type and could have a bearing on the fog as I have a theory about this too which involves the limbic system, and in particular the Amygdala. Foo issues is another area I would like to dive into in the future but I need to read around it first.
I hope you understand why I am trying to put two and two together, to get closure for the extreme emotional pain that still exists after my Mlcer who I still love blew up not only my life but more importantly my children’s.
The oldest of my daughters who she used to hide her adultery is now spiralling into psychotic episodes and having dark thoughts and hearing voices which I firmly believe were caused by my ex wife’s heinous emotional abuse using my children to suppress the truth from their father over several years. Both as a father and a former happy husband and now an unhappy victim of the MLC I need to find the truth...isn’t that what this site is for, support and increasing knowledge about MLC. And hopefully get along and be tolerant and respectful to each other.
Jack
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Jack, I'm another female member finding it very uncomfortable to read your continuous posts on the menopause. Would you please start a new thread of your own. My impression is that Shock's sis has told you more than once that she does not think in her case they are connected so please could you leave it at that on this thread.
I tend you feel like Terra, please speak about andropause, because unless you are a doctor, I'm not at all comfortable with this discussion.
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Jack, please listen to the many female posters who are letting you know the way you are approaching this subject is uncomfortable, including Shock Sis - add me to that list.
It really is as simple as this - menopause is a normal biological change every woman goes through much like puberty. Not every woman goes into MLC, only a a very small minority have a crisis that completely disrupts their lives like our spouses. Your wife may indeed by impacted by hormonal issues or brain chemistry imbalance but that would be a sample of 1. MLC often hits many many years prior to peri menopause or menopause. We female non MLCers are letting you know, as gently as possible to please stop - without trying to be overly critical, your repeated attempts sound a lot like “mansplaining” to me about menopause, and I really object to that...
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Anon I won’t reply to others who now enquire of me while on Shock Sis thread while I’m waiting for my answers. You’ve enquired of me twice and I have answered you in good faith as I have done with others while waiting. Please if I’m having dialog with a specific person in the future and waiting for their reply don’t jump into the conversations with your comments as I don’t like it, and I will reciprocate.
Jack
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Ok folks, my intentions are good so the menopause is taboo from now on, I would appreciate any reports you may find to the contrary in your travels and also as I said to Anon when I’m asking a specific question directed at a person you don’t jump into my conversation until I get their replies as replying gobbles up my time and puts me off track somewhat.
Kind regards
Jack
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Anon I won’t reply to others who now enquire of me while on Shock Sis thread while I’m waiting for my answers. You’ve enquired of me twice and I have answered you in good faith as I have done with others while waiting. Please if I’m having dialog with a specific person in the future and waiting for their reply don’t jump into the conversations with your comments as I don’t like it, and I will reciprocate.
Jack
also as I said to Anon when I’m asking a specific question directed at a person you don’t jump into my conversation until I get their replies as replying gobbles up my time and puts me off track somewhat.
Uh, what??? If you are referring to me, I have no idea what you are talking about !! Please re-read my posts Jack and explain what your problem is because I don't get it. This thread has gotten a bit ridiculous now.
May we please get back to this being ShockSis thread?
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Hi Anon, here’s what I’m relating to and I responded to this with some academic and personal report on the subject which ties up the thread but requires an answer none the less to your statement directed to me.
“Jackolar,,, I'm sorry but I too, think you are barking up the wrong tree.” All I was after is shocks opinion on her MLC Anon.
I may be Anon but I’ve moved to a different line of enquiry now due to the subject being unsettling to some and that’s not my intentions just to gain knowledge and heal. I have been interested in the possibility of links to the meno it might explain a lot in a certain percentage of MLC women and quite possibly my Mlcer.
I don’t know much about the Andropause so I would have to read around it. But I will do this privately of course. I’m more interested now in the fears experienced and the origin of the fog I think it may have some mileage.
“Jackolar, I would totally love it if you or mods would split the thread off into a separate examination of menopause or andropause.
I agree with this primarily because it’s a discussion that should have its own thread apart from Shock Sis story.”
I did want to start a thread but decided earlier on against it as it it made some uncomfortable I don’t know why exactly, but I’m happy to leave the meno where it is and be a team player. I was conscious of tying up the thread so I really didn’t want to answer anyone’s questions or respond to statements directed to me as I was just after shocks replies as I was on her thread.
Kind regards
Jack
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Jack, I did not inquire anything of you. I simply made a comment supporting the post that immediately preceded mine,,, in BOTH cases when I posted. If I may, your reaction to my posts are more than a little out of line as are your reactions to some other posters on this thread who have politely let you know they would like you to drop it.
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Jack, really, perhaps you should start a discussion thread so people have a place to respond to you about this particular subject, but your repeated mischaracterizations of menopause are troubling. It’s not some mentally debilitating, soul crushing horror show called “The Menopause.”
There’s literally decades of research on menopause. It can produce some shifts in mood, sure, but it’s not the kind of manic/depressive out of control event you seem to keep describing. It’s a natural shift in hormone levels over a period of years. Which happens multiple times throughout our lives. It doesn’t turn benevolent women into monsters.
Nas, I was going to start a discussion thread as I have already mentioned in my previous post to Thunder which you should be aware of as you are following along. However on reflection I have decided in a greater part due to your disparaging replies too my posts not to pursue this at this time as I seek greater knowledge/understanding and not to antagonise anyone or gender.
In resolution of this matter I would respectfully suggest as you find my dialog relating to my personal opinions on the effects of the Menopause/Andropause and it’s possible impact on MLC allegedly mischaracterising, you avoid reading/replying to my posts as I will be doing to yours.
I hope this clarifies matters as I do not want to get involved at all with infighting as it blocks avenues that need exploring and I would imagine puts off many who want to post for the first time and reduces their growth/healing.
Jack
I am on my phone and unable to select all text. Could a moderator please take this entire post for me and move it to my own thread? I would like to use it when I can to start a discussion on my own thread. (If that is not possible, then as soon as I am at my computer I will copy this to my own thread and then ask a moderator to remove it from this thread.)
Saw this coming a mile away…
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Hi Jack
I understand your quest to attribute a specific reason for MLC as I am sure everyone on this forum would. MLC has many factors and layers. I absolutely maintain one of the biggest if not the biggest contributor is FOO issues, along with 3 definite markers if you like and as I have said before, I feel sure if the LBS were to look back they would recognise their existence.
Stress over a period of time which brings on depression, a lot of people are depressed but not all go into MLC I know but I think the biggest determining factor is a traumatic event, the size or severity of the trauma is as individual as the MLCer. Once this traumatic event happens it’s as if the brain can no longer cope and somehow flips the on switch which kicks off MLC.
I feel it was my brains way of preventing me from total breakdown and that it hid my core person under the thick multi layered fog in order to preserve it and allow it to heal and because of my FOO issues and that my childhood trauma of my father leaving after being in his own MLC I didn’t develop the coping mechanism of an adult and so, when he died I was traumatised and had only the coping mechanism of my childhood to rely on which was an overload on my brain.
I understand the reason for wanting closure but I think it’s going to be a long time before you get this as I only realised the importance of this to my ex h after reading and answering questions from LBSers.
Jack, I want more than anything for you to heal from this awful nightmare you were thrown into and I know you are a good person but understand closure may never come.
Concentrate on you Jack because the reasons for your wife’s MLC really are her issues. Let go and look to healing yourself. Don’t be a casualty of her MLC in spending time researching the reason or reasons because it will hold you back entrenched in her MLC and you deserve peace.
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Jack, I think ShockSis is saying something important here for all of us about healing and closure. We all hunt round for THE cause for a while....understandable...but the tough truth is that even if we could 100% pin it down, it would not change what happened that affected your life so much. Or mine. Bc we can't fix FOO issues or change someone else's hormone levels or make them healthy and happy. So if we knew, what would that knowledge do that would make our lives better really? All we can do is deal with the collateral damage the best we can, for ourselves and for others like your dear daughter, and if we are minded to do so pray that some day our ex/spouses may reach the point that ShockSis has and some of those answers may come. It isn't fair at all that we did not cause this but still it is our responsibility to find a way to heal and rebuild regardless, I know, but it is how it is.
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Thank you Shockandawe for understanding my situation it means so much to me. Few understand my pain, I don’t understand it my self to be honest. I have tried to move on and forget about things but nothing works. I try daily to increase my knowledge in an attempt to gain a greater understanding of life. I’m sorry if my questions made some uncomfortable it was not my intention but I can see others points of view and will keep the subject of my concerns to my self and private studies. It would be nice to experience inner peace again, to feel whole and happy.
Looking back I can’t see any Foo issues my former wife had, she never mentioned any to me and she wasn’t perfect but she was perfect for me, I was deeply in love with her and any faults she had were brushed aside as part of her and I could live with them. Being abandoned by her has cut so deeply into my soul I can’t see it ever healing to be honest, there’s just this empty void that I can’t fill.
Looking back at the markers I felt she was depressed and as we were in the process of expanding the business we were both super busy. I asked her this out of concern but she said she was fine. She had an older sister and two older brothers that considered her the runt of the litter which upset me as she was wonderful, perhaps I was blind ....
Regarding the traumatic event she did have a head on collision while picking up my son and they were both lucky to walk away with their lives. The vehicle was fairly new and all air bags, and crumple zones deployed, thank you Mr Toyota. I wonder if this was a contributing factor she did seem a bit odd at the time but I put that down to shock and trauma.
Another thing I thought about was her carrying on behind my back and her traumatising her self by breaking her vows. My youngest daughter mentioned about breaking a sacred vow, unprompted by me and totally out of context with our conversation. So many wierd things have happened it’s bizarre.
I’ve got a theory about the fog and it’s origins I’m musing over at the moment. It’s to do with the limbic system and amygdala dis regulation and altered perceptions.I’m not sure if I will post it but I haven’t made my mind up as yet. Perhaps private email with like minded people would be better as people like to jump in I find and it gobbles up your time answering them and they don’t really grasp the context of your questions in the first place.
It’s the not knowing the truth of the matter is killing me, it is consuming my thoughts and invading my dreams even now years later. I just can’t shake it out of my head. I suppose it’s the injustice of it all I can’t accept. I have found this site to be helpful and populated with like minded people who have walked in my shoes. People like yourself bring a smile to my lips and I feel of some worth and belonging again.
Thank you again for your understanding an thoughtful reply it is much appreciated by me.
Kind regards
Jack
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Hi Anon, I suggest these figures are more inline at this time. It’s more prolific than people can imagine, it’s growing, women are leading the way and there’s just not enough education out there.
Jack
“By age 50, even more women than men are reporting a turbulent midlife transition -- 36.1% of women, compared with 34% of men -- according to research by Elaine Wethington, a Cornell University associate professor, based on a subset of the giant 6,432-person MacArthur Foundation "Midlife in the United States" study of Americans' well-being at midlife.
Applying the findings to the 42-million-member generation of U.S. women who are nearing or in middle age, defined as about 38 to 55 years old, more than 15 million women will have, or are already having, what they regard as a midlife crisis -- about equal to the entire populations of Colorado, Massachusetts and Minnesota combined.”
Hey Jack
I think this post is pretty much what I have found in my research on this subject.
So as you have found out some women think that menopause is just nothing at all but a blip on the radar screen.
Others find it very turbulent.
This all applies to men and andropause also.
I went through a trying time in my 40's that I can look back on and see that it was the start of my andropause.
It did not get me divorced but maybe that contributed to my ex wifes issues that caused me to end up here.
Anyways I have split off this to a separate discussion and I might even participate if I have time.
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Hi Treasure, your right in all ways regarding moving on and acceptance. It is what it is as you say. I just haven’t achieved it as yet and I don’t know how to. I guess I will have to go on living with this heavy weight on my shoulders until I find something that works.
Kind regards
Jack
Im going to get shot down again for this but hey, it is what it is.
Im sorry mate but I feel as though its time for a friendly 2x4 (its not just aimed at you personally, you just got in the way).
Your never going to move on because your thinking About MLC, Menapause, Growing old, Reasons for the MLC 24/7.
Your W has left the building, so has mine and many other XWs and XHs form amazing LBSs. They chose OP over us for firetruck knowa whatever reason but they did and we are history. They are GONE MATE and they wont be coming back. Fog or not, it doesnt matter. Gone is gone and they have no right coming back and expecting us all to forgive and forget, we didnt even get an apology or a reason did we!
Its not like they spilt milk or bumped the car whilst reversing into the garage! We know what they did and nobody or nothing can make that right again.
Shocks sisters XH may have made a bad desicion in getting too involved and having a child with his new wife too soon but basically he did the right thing. He got the firetruck away from her because she was a monster flying over the planet just to firetruck her OM! She would have destroyed him and he just tried to protect himself as well as he could. There is no hiding behind the fog as its BS! They know and they have control of their actions, WE ARE NOT A PLAN B FOR A FAILED "GRASS IS GREENER ACTION"!
Accept acceptance. Its a simple choice, just do it or your going to be asking the same questions 10 from now.
I posted this on "Shocks sis recovered MLCer 11" but it got taken off put on here. It was not About Menopause and not meant for that thread. Nice, freedom of speece and all.
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Jack: I don’t know your full story, I will definitely try to look back in the posts and find your thread (if there is one). I am sorry you find yourself in so much pain, and I think all of us can relate to the feeling that a part of us has been torn out.
From everything I know and my experience it is very common when we are confronted with the irrational to try to find some “reason,” something we can place our finger on, an explanation, someone/something to blame. And I think it comes from us wanting to feel like we have some kind of control. It is one of the hardest things to accept that there are things that we have no control over. And having the person you shared your life with blow it all up and be in pain is definitely one of those experiences.
As others have said this can be counterintuitive but trying to “understand” may actually prevent healing and moving on. Don’t get me wrong, I am not saying it will all go away, and that you will happily move on, etc. In fact just yesterday I was saying out loud during therapy that I know this will be with me for the rest of my life. Not the immediate pain and deep sorrow, not the feeling that all is lost. But the experience, the sadness, some feelings of loss and what may have/should have been.
But the truth is we have no control over many things. This is frightening maybe, but once we realize that it can also be freeing. We just get to choose what we do today, and we get to plan for how we want to live our days going forward. Sometimes trying to find out what happened is rooted in trying to control what happened or to make sure it never happens again. But I find that leads to a form of rigidity that prevents healing and the flexibility to enjoy life as it happens. Most of us here won’t have the life we wanted to have before the MLC explosion, but we can choose to have another life that suits us and find a new contentment, but it starts with letting go of ruins and trying to examine every thing that was destroyed and why.
Hope that makes some sense.
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I posted this on "Shocks sis recovered MLCer 11" but it got taken off put on here. It was not About Menopause and not meant for that thread. Nice, freedom of speece and all.
You can blame me - it looked like you were posting to Jack and not SS.
And I had just moved his discussion here.
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Hi Treasure, your right in all ways regarding moving on and acceptance. It is what it is as you say. I just haven’t achieved it as yet and I don’t know how to. I guess I will have to go on living with this heavy weight on my shoulders until I find something that works.
Kind regards
Jack
Im going to get shot down again for this but hey, it is what it is.
Im sorry mate but I feel as though its time for a friendly 2x4 (its not just aimed at you personally, you just got in the way).
Your never going to move on because your thinking About MLC, Menapause, Growing old, Reasons for the MLC 24/7.
Accept acceptance. Its a simple choice, just do it or your going to be asking the same questions 10 from now.
I didn't either, jack.
I fell over, over and over again. But sometimes something stuck and then the next time I got up just a bit quicker or easier.
WhyUs is right about acceptance bc all any of us can donis live in the grace of the day and where we are right now. Tomorrow might be different, but this is where we are.
Which then means deciding how much we want to live and feel differently than we do right now. Which is a very personal choice imho...sometimes grief sticks bc it is also a connection of a kind I think. And it sounds as if part of you is still grieving?
I didn't know what to do at all so I was stuck for a long time. I got good advice which I couldn't or wouldn't act on. And then, for whatever reason, I didn't want to feel how I felt so I tried different things. From skydiving to IC to prayer to planting roses to walking to learning more about lots of different things. Most didn't work...but a few did a bit. And then a bit more.
The turning point for me truly was when I was just desperate to not feel how I felt...to live how i was living bc it wasn't really living. The things I had learned suggested EMDR might help in my case but it was really just another bit of trial and error. But it did...or it did and I I was ready to feel better too. Since then, it has been a lot of hard work but a lot of feeling myself shift internally...like magic tbh. Am I unscarred by what happened? No. Will I ever understand it? Not really. Do I have those 'gulp' moments of sorrow or disbelief, or when I just wish I could chat to my h as I knew him? Yes, I do. I never would have chosen this for us or for me...but I did eventually choose to want to live again regardless.
What helps you, jack?
And what doesn't?
Important questions for all LBS trying to heal I think...but the answers may be different.
Oh and on the menopause issue.
I don't see it as contributing to MLC per se but I think it can contribute to depression for some women I have known. Not necessarily just hormonal but the psychological issues of no longer being able to bear children or sometimes the physical issues of things like fibroids or overwhelming hot flashes affecting your sleep say. My mother certainly suffered in peri-menopause and did go through a brief patch of depression. I got the LBS gift of suddenly going into menopause the month after BD, maybe a stress reaction, so if I had any memopause stuff going on, it got drowned by the s$itstorm going on around me ;)
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I posted this on "Shocks sis recovered MLCer 11" but it got taken off put on here. It was not About Menopause and not meant for that thread. Nice, freedom of speece and all.
You can blame me - it looked like you were posting to Jack and not SS.
And I had just moved his discussion here.
OK OP. I thought it may have been you. It was meant for SSs Thread really, i cant read it and I dont. ist painful and feels like a trap to me.
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Hey Jack
I think this post is pretty much what I have found in my research on this subject.
So as you have found out some women think that menopause is just nothing at all but a blip on the radar screen.
Others find it very turbulent.
This all applies to men and andropause also.
I went through a trying time in my 40's that I can look back on and see that it was the start of my andropause.
It did not get me divorced but maybe that contributed to my ex wifes issues that caused me to end up here.
Anyways I have split off this to a separate discussion and I might even participate if I have time.
I'm glad to hear that we aren't abandoning this avenue. I think there are many people who believe MLC may be tied to hormonal changes. I posted a link to a female MLC article from Oprah a few months back, and it definitely covered the theory. In it, a doctor who believed there was some connection, said he told his patients not to make any major life decisions for 10 years when they were diagnosed with menopause.My W was definitely peri-menopausal prior to going off the rails: she'd been diagnosed, she was having hot flashes, she couldn't sleep and it was driving her crazy. Our bed was stained from her sweat on her side. She was 44 when it started. She told me, once OM was discovered "I told you women in my family had bad menopause and to be ready for a bumpy ride." (I don't recall ever hearing this prior.) On my way out the door to move out, she said "You know I had to grieve the relationship with OM. And my hormones are messed up. I've probably got more testosterone in me than you." :o Was she just making excuses? Perhaps. Not owning her behavior and choices, I guess. But I know that menopause was a cloud hanging over us for several years before everything blew up. I also know my D attorney, a woman, asked me several pointed questions when we first met: "Is your wife menopausal? Is there an OP? What do you know about mid-life crises?" 30 years of practice in family law lead her to believe hormones are definitely related in both men and women.
Take this for what it's worth and I'm sorry some of the female LBS's here find this topic, or the way it's being presented, as triggering. We should definitely be sensitive to that. However, I find the argument "I had menopause and didn't have an MLC, therefore there's no relation" to be about as effective as "I know people who smoked until they were 90 and never got lung cancer and therefore cigarettes don't cause lung cancer." What if andro/menopause + bad FOO = MLC, and andro/menopause - bad FOO doesn't? Simplistic I know, but I think the search for possibilities is one way to gain further acceptance by the medical community. Does that mean that knowing what causes MLC can stop it? Well, no, I don't think so. But knowing is half the battle, isn't it? I believe my W was searching for an explanation as to why she felt the way she did. Perhaps, had there been more specific causal analysis out there, she might have known there was a reason she was hating me and falling for another man and been able to weather the storm. And then again; maybe not. ;D
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Nice to hear from you OP, the research figures are staggering aren’t they. I feel as though I’m in the Andropause at the moment I mentioned it to the nurse while in hospital today she was very understanding and sweet about it. I bet you are glad yours is over it can last for over ten years in some men. The constant fatigue and aches and pains are the worst for me coupled with the knowledge you can’t do what you used to.
Thank you for splitting the thread I would not have had a clue how to have done it as I’m a technophobe. They didn’t have computers when I was in school and I was thrown in the deep end when I went to University. I can manage Ok but there’s a lot I need to learn. I didn’t intend to start a thread just yet but let’s see what develops.
Your right there are those that breeze through the Meno and those that have it rough. I’m on another international site so I get to hear of some really troubling cases. It seems a very touchy subject for some but Shock Sis has been very informative and pleasant about things.
I see similarities in the Menopause/Andropause and MLC and I’m curious to know if it could be a contributing factor in my x wife’s case. If it was I cannot hold things against her for being ill and following her hormones as they drive us all. All I hope is whatever has changed her subsides and returns to her usual self. I seek logical and polite replies concerning this from like minded people and don’t want infighting to occur that wrecks threads.
Your very welcome to participate Old Pilot and thank again.
Kind regards
Jack
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I'm glad to hear that we aren't abandoning this avenue.
I think there are many people who believe MLC may be tied to hormonal changes.
We should not abandon this topic - and HB and others all write that MLC has hormonal changes tied to it.
It might not be menopause or andropause but likely perio menopause and the same for andro pause.
Hormonal changes are definitely tied to why we are all here.
And at this point I can say that is not even my opinion but a fact.
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Hi Why us, a 4x2 is what I need I think at the moment this year has been really bad emotionally for me I think I’m in the Andropause as I’m the right age for it. I really wish someone could wipe my thoughts out of my mind and put only the good ones back in.
Thinking about it all the time as you say is also not in my best interests so I try to distract myself with my hobbies. It doesn’t help my legs been in a plaster cast for 3 years and cannot drive right now. God willing if it heals and I can walk properly again I will go back to University as that really keeps me busy with assignments.
I do try but it just keeps coming back to haunt me it’s exhausting, I have tried several other women but they don’t measure up, perhaps one day one will come along when I’m ready and I’m not there yet.
You have made excellent progress I keep an eye on your threads and your very positive about your situation. I’m hoping I would have been there to long before now but it’s just not happening even though I want it to. I have thought about being hypnotised that might work. I’m from Wales Whyus you are too aren’t you. Thanks for your advice.
Kind regards
Jack
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Jack,
The way you are feeling and how you are responding to those feelings are perfectly normal. Chumplady calls it “untangling the skein”, it’s a normal coping mechanism to try to figure out what makes your cheater tick so you can ensure they will never hurt you again. If it’s foo issues, you can call a therapist. If it’s MLC, like shocks sis, it’s temporary and not their fault, so all you have to do is wait it out.
Don’t we all find the perfect articles that have the answers? Aren’t we all tempted to send the “answers” to our MLCers?
Maybe it’s “The Menopause” (using the word “The” might be what’s pissing off some female posters, personally I thought that phrase was unusual but a bit humorous).
Menopause causes many symptoms, having sex with whoever says yes and then lying to my husband about it, isn’t one of them.
Let’s forget about your spouse for a minute, you are grieving your marriage. After denial, usually comes anger. I was good at that one. ;D
I don’t see a lot of anger from many of the men on here, It’s like you guys jump over anger and go straight to bargaining and just hang there.
Bargaining-
During grief, you may feel vulnerable and helpless. In those moments of intense emotions, it’s not uncommon to look for ways to regain control or to want to feel like you can affect the outcome of an event. In the bargaining stage of grief, you may find yourself creating a lot of “what if” and “if only” statements. Bargaining is a line of defense against the emotions of grief. It helps you postpone the sadness, confusion of hurt. If you can just understand why, you can possibly change the outcome and no longer feel the pain.
Sound familiar?
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Menopause causes many symptoms, having sex with whoever says yes and then lying to my husband about it, isn’t one of them.
Nah,
What does cause that, then?
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Choice
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Menopause causes many symptoms, having sex with whoever says yes and then lying to my husband about it, isn’t one of them.
Nah,
What does cause that, then?
I'm not nah, but lack of morals? If you aren't in a relationship, you can sleep with whomever you like, with as many as you like as long as you don't lie to any and say they are the only one (still a morality issue, imo), no foul.
If menopause or andropause caused people to sleep with other people and lie about it, everyone would do it, but they don't. There has to be a personality issue for that kind of selfishness, possibly a developmental stage that got missed, also imo.
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Menopause causes many symptoms, having sex with whoever says yes and then lying to my husband about it, isn’t one of them.
Nah,
What does cause that, then?
JMHO
Hormonal imbalances is a contributing factor to this
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If menopause or andropause caused people to sleep with other people and lie about it, everyone would do it, but they don't. There has to be a personality issue for that kind of selfishness, possibly a developmental stage that got missed, also imo.
I agree
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Choice
Is a choice made under duress a true choice? If someone is in emotional turmoil, do they make choices that might be in opposition to their values?
I know I did. After BD, I was nearly overcome with anxiety and depression and lack of sleep was a contributing factor as well. I made several choices that were not necessarily true to who I was/am. They certainly weren't marriage ending, but I felt like they were outside of my control.
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Menopause causes many symptoms, having sex with whoever says yes and then lying to my husband about it, isn’t one of them.
Nah,
What does cause that, then?
I'm not nah, but lack of morals? If you aren't in a relationship, you can sleep with whomever you like, with as many as you like as long as you don't lie to any and say they are the only one (still a morality issue, imo), no foul.
If menopause or andropause caused people to sleep with other people and lie about it, everyone would do it, but they don't. There has to be a personality issue for that kind of selfishness, possibly a developmental stage that got missed, also imo.
Offroad - thank you for responding. I already addressed the "everyone would do it" argument earlier. It doesn't hold water for me. However, you just followed up with personality issue or missing developmental stage, and on that, we can agree. Nowhere will you find me defending the theory that everyone in andro/menopause has a full blown MLC. I do believe there are extenuating/contributing factors or existing behaviors that make it more likely when combined. I'm finding the "no relation between the two" argument befuddling.
And I also agree that morals/ethics/boundaries play an important part. But as far as I am aware, whatever deficiencies my W has in these regards never manifested until after she was diagnosed peri-menopausal.
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If one thinks depression is a cause of mlc then menopause is a possible cause. I go to a professor who opened the World’s first menopause clinic and has awards for his academic work. He believe that hormone imbalance often results in people being prescribed anti depressants. This covers pre and post party women, those with menstrual issues and women who are in menopause and beyond.he believes hrt/endocrine treatment is far preferable to anti depressants.
I am prescribed natural oestrogen and testosterone. Unless something untoward occurs I will continue indefinitely. I didn’t have particular problems- when I went to him I described myself as ‘the worried well’ but stiff joints, general lack of interest, and tiredness and anxiety seemed to disappear. My skin is good (for my age)I
As Nah points out, none of these things means menopause made me lie and sleep with men other than my husband - in fact im now more likely to do so as Im a lot livelier! but despite being a natural Phenomenon, it, like childbirth or menarche, causes more issues than are generally recognised because we all just get on with life and accept small changes and inconveniences.
Like others on here though, I don’t think it can cause mlc -It’s more of a general health/psychological health issue.
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Also, I do believe chemicals, including hormones, can contribute to MLC, but I also believe it's a combo of that and personality. Imo, the difference between people who think the world is responsible for their happiness and everyone owes them something and those who take responsibility for their own contentment. Some of group 2 also take responsibility for other people's contentment, which has its own inherent problems.
I think a lot of people live a life they were told to live without understanding why they live that way (follow the rules whether they understand them or not), then get to a point where they don't know who they are because they missed out on learning who they are themselves. They are who their parents or society told them they should be. When you reach a point where your body doesn't bounce back like it used to, you feel "getting old" creeping up. If you don't become yourself now, when will you ever? This is why I think we see the juvenile behavior, and the selfish behavior of those learning what is "good" what is "bad ", compassion, integrity, honor, loyalty, etc.
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Also, I do believe chemicals, including hormones, can contribute to MLC, but I also believe it's a combo of that and personality. Imo, the difference between people who think the world is responsible for their happiness and everyone owes them something and those who take responsibility for their own contentment. Some of group 2 also take responsibility for other people's contentment, which has its own inherent problems.
I think a lot of people live a life they were told to live without understanding why they live that way (follow the rules whether they understand them or not), then get to a point where they don't know who they are because they missed out on learning who they are themselves. They are who their parents or society told them they should be. When you reach a point where your body doesn't bounce back like it used to, you feel "getting old" creeping up. If you don't become yourself now, when will you ever? This is why I think we see the juvenile behavior, and the selfish behavior of those learning what is "good" what is "bad ", compassion, integrity, honor, loyalty, etc.
Now we are in the same wheelhouse! ;D
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Now we are in the same wheelhouse! ;D
Which is also a choice. Attempting to untangle the skein to avoid the pain that there was an element of choice that our spouses made.
Yes, I do believe there is an element of depression, and there can be many factors that lead to the perfect wave of destruction. At some point, though, there was flirting, secret messages, plotting and planning before the bomb. It didn’t just happen and it certainly wasn’t due to the natural changes of our bodies.
An argument that shock sis likes to repeat is no one in their right mind would choose to go through the pain. Was her pain the affair, or the fallout when the grass wasn’t greener?
... and here come the pitchforks.
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It’s the not knowing the truth of the matter is killing me, it is consuming my thoughts and invading my dreams even now years later. I just can’t shake it out of my head. I suppose it’s the injustice of it all I can’t accept.
I will explain why I needed to understand what happened but this is my personal experience. It may or may not apply to anyone else.
First, figuring out why my wife did what she did helped me to realize that it was all about her. It had nothing to do with me, our marriage, or our family and there was nothing either of us could have done to prevent what happened. Even now, in spite of knowing what I know, my mind still occasionally tries to place blame on me but I know better and that's comforting.
Second, in spite of the BS I often read on this site about them knowing what they're doing and doing it anyway, I didn't believe it in my wife's case. We were a couple for 36 years and married for 34 years. I knew her better than I knew anyone and almost as well as I knew myself but I had no idea who this person was who was going through this crisis. I could tell that she was fighting the compulsion to do what she eventually did, I could tell that she didn't want to do it, I could tell that she didn't want to hurt me, and yet she did all of it anyway and I needed to understand why. Learning why she did what she did has helped me to feel compassion for her and to hold onto the love that I feel for her.
Few understand my pain, I don’t understand it my self to be honest. I have tried to move on and forget about things but nothing works. I try daily to increase my knowledge in an attempt to gain a greater understanding of life. I’m sorry if my questions made some uncomfortable it was not my intention but I can see others points of view and will keep the subject of my concerns to my self and private studies. It would be nice to experience inner peace again, to feel whole and happy.
Third, the most important thing that came from trying to understand my wife and how she was broken is that it led to me finally understanding myself and how I was broken. Investigating my wife's childhood and FOO issues helped me to better understand my own. Learning about my wife's crisis helped me to better understand the crisis that I have been going through. And learning why my wife is doing what she is doing prepared me and perhaps softened the blow when I was diagnosed with the same condition.
The one thing my research didn't do was to fulfill what was perhaps my primary goal. I wanted to find a reason to believe that she would eventually heal and we would be able to return to living our lives together. I was looking for hope for a future that included my wife as my partner again. Unfortunately, I haven't found that.
I think it would have been easier if I would have decided after BD that my wife was a lying, cheating ow who had been hiding her true nature from me and everyone else for 52 years. Then I could have quickly moved on and found somebody else to make me happy. And if that didn't work out, there are plenty of fish in the sea. I could move on again and find another one. Maybe someday I might even find myself with 5 ex-wives, like my brother, and still be searching for the one person who would make me happy.
I chose the harder path. For 36 years my wife was the center of my universe. I've decided to try to figure out how to make myself the center of my universe (in a non-narcissistic way). For a long time my wife completed me. Now I believe a partner should complement me, not complete me. Now I believe that I should be able to find peace within myself instead of needing to be with somebody else in order to feel peace.
I'm still very much a work in progress. I have a long way to go and I don't know whether I'll ever make it. The road I'm traveling to try to heal from my disorder and from my FOO issues is a long and difficult one even though I'm working with a couple of therapists who are experts in this area. That's why it's hard for me to believe my wife will ever be able to find healing on her own. But somehow Shocks's Sis managed so you never know. All that I know for sure is that I have a lot of work to do on myself.
... and here come the pitchforks.
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Disillusioned that’s great you have similar interests. I hope others will as well. I thought it worthy of looking into as my x was 49 at bomb drop and 3 weeks before she left she said she loved me to bits, I was so confused at this time but I new very little about the menopause only many men spend a lot of time in the garden shed around this phase I watched my sister-inlaw going through it and my brother bearing the brunt of her rages, it was not very nice she had a bad one for sure.
I’m also pleased to hear your lawyers take and that there are other interested people out there. It makes sense at that turbulent time of change which also coincides with the MLC range of 40-55 that a percentage of MLC may be related to the Menopause and the Andropause and that’s the point I was trying to explain.My theory wasn’t well supported there so I thought in the sake of harmony to let it drop. I’m pleased others see things differently.
At that time your wife was right her testosterone was driving her altered behaviour and making her more aggressive you could have put up with that but when it turns into an affair it’s a real deal breaker I know, beyond belief in many cases. I hope your healed and doing well now.
The peri menopause is a dangerous period for relationships that have been rock solid for decades and you hit the nail on the head that an effective early diagnosis and treatment may well have saved her. It’s weird how they hate their husbands and look for another man to make them feel happy as they already have a tried and tested husband who loves them, it’s as though their perception of their husband and relationship is turned upside down and they devalue and discard them just likes narcissistic person would.
I have a possible explanation for this but it’s not quite there yet and more thought needs to go into it and it’s to do with the effects of hormones on the limbic system. Thank you for your support you have encouraged me no end and it’s nice to hear positive thoughts at last.
Kind regards
Jack
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Now we are in the same wheelhouse! ;D
Which is also a choice. Attempting to untangle the skein to avoid the pain that there was an element of choice that our spouses made.
Yes, I do believe there is an element of depression, and there can be many factors that lead to the perfect wave of destruction. At some point, though, there was flirting, secret messages, plotting and planning before the bomb. It didn’t just happen and it certainly wasn’t due to the natural changes of our bodies.
An argument that shock sis likes to repeat is no one in their right mind would choose to go through the pain. Was her pain the affair, or the fallout when the grass wasn’t greener?
... and here come the pitchforks.
No pitchforks from me. I appreciate the input and all the different views. That's what was bothering me about the "Sorry, Jack, this is a non starter" posts.
I think, what may help some of us to empathize and understand the possibilities , is if we have experienced something similar. I think I had an MLT or mild MLC, brought about by depression over a number of things, some marriage related. Or, it could have just been depression. All I know is that I was combative, sullen and withdrawn and I have to accept that some of that may have influenced my W, whatever the contributing factors. At one point during this time frame, I found myself attracted to a woman at work, but only in passing. As Offroad has pointed out, my morals came into play and I quickly extricated myself before anything intimate, sexual or defamatory to my marriage was discussed. I'm not even sure that such behavior would have been reciprocated, so maybe that's a factor. But, the thought was there. And prior to that, for years, no matter what was going on between me and W, I refused to look at other women, or engage with other men about looking at women, including magazines. I would be offended if someone, especially a married man, would point out or make an appreciative comment about a woman. So, something caused a momentary lapse, or a crack in the wall, if you will. But, whatever I was going through, was nowhere as severe as what I started to watch my W experience and I didn't have the horrible FOO issues she had to go along with it.
I'm I hurt by the affair? Yes. Did I do all the things we are told not to do, including begging, crying and promising to change? Yes. I've been angry, depressed, reflective, and disillusioned. I've also leaned on my faith and found a place for forgiveness and grace. I go there when anger starts to rear its head. I have been kind, giving, and vulnerable to this person who still mostly treats me like poo on the bottom of her 4" heels. I still believe, however, that the marriage itself, and my D9, are more important than my pride, which I've learned to let go. I watch Affair Recovery on YouTube a lot, and it helps to understand how/why character deficiencies can contribute to this issue. It is my hope, that eventually my W will recognize these deficiencies and stop blaming me for everything that happened. At that time, whether or not reconciliation is possible (she did file for D, after all) it is my earnest desire that we can at least have an open, honest relationship, in honor of the nearly twenty years that went before.
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...
Second, in spite of the BS I often read on this site about them knowing what they're doing and doing it anyway...
Brain, don't you think this particular statement is a bit dismissive of those of us who find it to be true? I think both viewpoints are equally valid, and it comes off to me as a bit of an attack to those who happen to believe that particular statement, which I DO.
My analogy since its something I can relate to VERY well: Smoking. I do it. I know its bad for me. It will probably be what kills me. It is an EXTREME addiction that is difficult to shake. If I were diagnosed with lung cancer today, although I am sure I would go through all the stages of grief, I STILL would not blame the tobacco companies. They didn't hold a gun to my head and force me to smoke. It was a CHOICE. Now you could say I lack the willpower to quit, therefore I HAVE no choice. While the former may be true, the latter is not. Although its an extreme addiction to shake, ultimately the only person I can blame for my smoking is me.
I happen to feel the same way about MLC.
-T
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Terrified, I THINK we are on the same page.
I don't think a midlife crisis is a choice, but do believe there is a choice what you do about it.
The choice to have an affair, is a choice. Leaving you family is a choice. No one is holding a gun to your head.
I'm not saying it is an easy choice, I don't believe it is. I'm sure it's extremely difficult.
There is a very strong pull to run away or chuck your responsibilities and find an affair partner.
I also believe if you find yourself feeling these things that may destroy your marriage, or walk out on your kids, find some help. You know it's not normal or you wouldn't feel guilty about it, when you do it.
They are not mentally ill. They are in a life crisis, yes, but they still have choices.
I know not everyone feels this way, and that's ok, it's just my opinion.
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...
Second, in spite of the BS I often read on this site about them knowing what they're doing and doing it anyway...
Brain, don't you think this particular statement is a bit dismissive of those of us who find it to be true? I think both viewpoints are equally valid, and it comes off to me as a bit of an attack to those who happen to believe that particular statement, which I DO.
My analogy since its something I can relate to VERY well: Smoking. I do it. I know its bad for me. It will probably be what kills me. It is an EXTREME addiction that is difficult to shake. If I were diagnosed with lung cancer today, although I am sure I would go through all the stages of grief, I STILL would not blame the tobacco companies. They didn't hold a gun to my head and force me to smoke. It was a CHOICE. Now you could say I lack the willpower to quit, therefore I HAVE no choice. While the former may be true, the latter is not. Although its an extreme addiction to shake, ultimately the only person I can blame for my smoking is me.
I happen to feel the same way about MLC.
-T
I think that’s a perfect analogy, T. I often use drugs and or alcohol but smoking is even a better analogy
Brain, I also find it very arrogant to assume you know someone, anyone, better than they know themselves. This has come up before with you. Since you want to exhaust every avenue, is it possible, just possible, that your wife had thoughts she didn’t feel comfortable sharing with you?
No? Not possible. Why? Because you say so?
Maybe she dreamed about escaping her protected life for some freedom. No? She wouldn’t choose to escape because you have decided that she is too weak to make decisions for herself?
Jack, I respect that you are looking for answers. Very normal. I did that myself for a very long time. Heck, I still stop sometimes and read articles about MLC, depression, addictions, etc. I realize I don’t have the answers and most likely will never have the answers. Maybe it was some kind of mysterious fog or maybe he just felt old and a young blonde looked his way, and he was gone.
For me, like Whyus said, the point is he’s gone.
We all go through different stages to process this mess, all on our own timelines.
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terrified_in_TN: I know you are asking brain but if its ok I want to add something.
I am completely in agreement with you about action/consequence, decision/outcome and responsibility. Not from a moral stand point, but for me its about mental health, existing in a coherent state with reality which is both an indicator of mental balance and a contributor to it. So in you example you are making a choice with a relatively comprehensive understanding of consequence, and you are clearly living by it.
I am going to use this unrealistic example to illustrate what I believe is part of the MLC experience (part, not all). If someone is in so much pain/turmoil and suffering from cognitive dissonance, let's say its because of a sudden impact to the head, and let's imagine they have no idea that glass is fragile. When they go around dropping glass and it shatters it doesn't take away the consequence and damage of what they had done. But trying to understand it as compared to someone who does its not the same. It doesn't take away their responsibility, but it creates a context and understanding.
I can say that I clearly see my wife in all manners of disassociate states over the past three years. I know her pretty well and we were very open and talked about everything, and I am very well aware of her FOO issues and traumas that finally blew up. So when she does something truly hurtful and she registers NONE of it I know there is something not working on the action/consequence part. Its not that she doesn't care, its more like a cord has been cut and the two things are no longer interlinked in her mind.
Does that mean I am not deeply hurt? Darn no. Does it mean she is "allowed" to do anything she wants? Again no. But if this is the case then we get to decide what it means to each of us, and there is no single answer. And also there are probably many variants including maybe some MLCers who simply never cared and just covered it up.
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I respect that people have different opinions on whether MLC is a choice or a compulsion and personally I sort of come down in the middle somewhere.
However, I get the feeling that many people believe it is one or the other not because of any factual or scientific reasoning (even if they claim it), but because of how they feel about the situation itself, whether they are angry, want reconciliation, whether they can forgive a cheater, etc. etc.
In a way, I don't think any LBS is in a position to definitively say one way or another because none of us can be completely objective about it.
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Good point.
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Second, in spite of the BS I often read on this site about them knowing what they're doing and doing it anyway...
Brain, don't you think this particular statement is a bit dismissive of those of us who find it to be true?
Your arrogant friend,
MBIB
I agree. It was dismissive but it's still my OPINION. I should qualify it and say that it's possible that not every situation on here is MLC and my statement only applies to MLCers. There may be some on here whose spouses really did know what they were doing and chose to do it anyway. In my OPINION, those are not MLC.
My analogy since its something I can relate to VERY well: Smoking.
T, how old were you when you started smoking? Suppose you learned that the tobacco companies had targeted children in their marketing campaigns, knowing that children wouldn't have a mature enough understanding of the risks involved, knowing that children wouldn't understand how addictive cigarettes are and how difficult it is to stop smoking once you started, and knowing that if they were able to get those children hooked on smoking that they would probably be addicted for life? Would that change your mind about the tobacco companies guilt?
I know its bad for me. It will probably be what kills me.
No offense but do you realize how irrational this sounds? If it's a choice, then STOP! Are you really choosing to die from lung cancer? I suspect your answer will be no, but you continue to smoke in spite of the fact that you believe doing so will probably kill you. You're "choosing" to do something which will probably result in an outcome that you don't want. How is that a choice?
BTW, my wife's stepfather was a lifelong smoker who died from lung cancer. It was a very unpleasant way to die.
I don't smoke so it would be easy for me to consider you weak for continuing to smoke when you believe that it's bad for you but I don't feel that way because I used to smoke. I know how hard it is to quit. I used to count my cigarettes at the end of the day to make sure I wouldn't run out before the stores opened in the morning.
You haven't lived through an MLC so it's easy for you to believe that MLCers are weak and are choosing to do the things they do but think about this. MLCers who follow their compulsions blow up their lives and their families but at least they aren't choosing to do something they believe will eventually lead to a slow and painful death.
Brain, I also find it very arrogant to assume you know someone, anyone, better than they know themselves. This has come up before with you.
Nah, it's always nice to hear from you. I appreciate your efforts to keep me humble. I'm afraid I think it's pretty arrogant of you to point out my flaws without closely reading what I wrote.
We were a couple for 36 years and married for 34 years. I knew her better than I knew anyone and almost as well as I knew myself but I had no idea who this person was who was going through this crisis.
Where does it say that I felt I knew her better than she knew herself? It seems like what I write doesn't matter because you've already decided that you know who I am. And you think I'm the arrogant one.
In a way, I don't think any LBS is in a position to definitively say one way or another because none of us can be completely objective about it.
This is a good point but when an MLCer or ex-MLCer posts that it was a compulsion they were powerless to resist there are LBSes that still doubt which leads me to believe that some LBSes have already made up their mind and don't want to hear anything that doesn't support their belief. If you really want 2 plus 2 to equal 5 then it's a waste of time to try to tell you anything else. You aren't looking for knowledge or understanding, you're looking for confirmation.
I can't give you that. I can't agree with you that 2+2=5 or that smoking when you believe it's going to kill you is a rational choice or that blowing up the life and family you loved while going through a severe crisis is a rational choice. I just can't do it. I'm sorry if that makes me arrogant. I guess I'm just a jerk. But at least I was strong enough to quit smoking. Maybe I'm a jerk who has the experience to know the difference between things that are hard choices and things that are irresistible compulsions.
I spend a lot of time editing my posts before submitting them, hoping that my meaning will be clear. Please carefully read what I wrote before firing up your flamethrowers.
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I respect that people have different opinions on whether MLC is a choice or a compulsion and personally I sort of come down in the middle somewhere.
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I feel similar NYM. I guess what gets me is if a MLCer stated "I *FELT* that I had no choice", I'll buy that no problem. But if a MLCers states "I had no choice" I just feel as if its a simply untrue statement.
I like that word "compulsion" you used. I think that fits well. The compulsion one feels to run away and do what they do I have no doubt is EXTREMELY strong. Probably one of the strongest pulls they have ever felt in their life. I truly believe that. I just can't stand the blanket statement that they had NO choice.
Semantics? Probably. But reading on an internet forum without body language, voice cues, etc you have to take the wording at face value.
Marvin-you lost me a little bit. But in your example, you state to imagine that they have no idea that glass is fragile. With MLC, I am pretty sure they know the consequences of their actions. Maybe not to the EXTENT of those consequences, but I feel they know they are taking a risk when they run. I also feel that is often why they try to keep the lbs on the shelf-as plan B with anchor checks and such. But again, this last bit is my personal opinion with nothing to back up why I feel the way I do other than a gut feeling based on my own experience.
But you also alluded to head trauma/mental illness. That is very valid. And there probably are some "MLCers" who radically change behaviors & values because of it. I do believe that too. As has been said I don't think there is any one item to blame for "MLC". But my personal opinion above is for lack of a better word my feeling for your typical garden variety MLCer who has no indication of mental illness, trauma, or any other medical cause for their behaviors.
-T
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I’m on my phone so it’s difficult to pull out a quote of a long response.
Brain, I stand corrected, I misread what you wrote.
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Brian, I don't think you realized, but you kinda helped make my point...
To answer your question: I was 14 when I started.
I agree with you: The tobacco companies I'm sure targeted children with ads and such. And made their products highly addictive.
They still didn't force me to start smoking. And they don't force me to continue smoking.
Yes, it IS a choice. Just stop? I wish I could. I never said it was an EASY CHOICE. I just said that it was a choice. Like my last post said...semantics probably.
I think it comes down to accepting responsibility for your life choices vs being the perpetual victim. Sure I could blame the tobacco companies for my poor life choices, which seems to be an all to common theme these days.....nothing is EVER anyone's fault. Its ALWAYS someone else to blame.
For the record, I do hope one day to quit.
-T
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Marvin-you lost me a little bit. But in your example, you state to imagine that they have no idea that glass is fragile. With MLC, I am pretty sure they know the consequences of their actions. Maybe not to the EXTENT of those consequences, but I feel they know they are taking a risk when they run. I also feel that is often why they try to keep the lbs on the shelf-as plan B with anchor checks and such. But again, this last bit is my personal opinion with nothing to back up why I feel the way I do other than a gut feeling based on my own experience.
I wasn't clear sorry. I wasn't talking so much about the idea that they don't realize what will happen if they do what they do. I agree in that their guilt and wanting a "plan B" explains part of how they behave. My analogy was more about their internal experience of what they are doing, and how it is probably more "disordered" than ordered. Maybe a better analogy is if they are disassociating from their emotions they are losing a very valuable guide and assessment tool for behaviour regulation. What we feel is so much a part of our decision making day to day, from small to major things in our lives. The better analogy is if I lose my nerve ending for sensing burning then I would be much more willing to grab hot objects. Obviously I am still damaging my skin, but I no longer have pain and the reaction of sensation to "dissuade" me from doing it.
I know my wife has completely disassociated from the pain she is causing, and the pain she herself is experiencing. In fact as it seems for most MLCers she is doing everything she can to escape reality. So I go back to that initial comment: existing in reality of a situation is both an indication of mental well being and a contributor to it. Most MLCers have lost the plot. It doesn't mean they are "guiltless" or have no consequences to face, but depending on your view it is not quite the same as a fully volitional decision.
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Marvin-Im not the brightest bulb in the fixture, but I think I understand what you are saying.
What you describe reminds me of what Joe Beam stated in his podcast on limerence:
In his example, he was educated in religion. He knew too much about it to state that God wanted him to be with his affair partner. So he became as he describes it 'an emotional athiest'. He came to the conclusion that there was no God. He changed his values and beliefs so that he could resolve the cognitive dissonance he was experiencing in order to be with his affair partner.
As he stated it, he came to his decisions emotionally. If he had done what was best for everyone LOGICALLY, he would have returned to the marriage for his spouse, their children, families, and even his affair partner, and so on.
There does seem to be a complete disconnect from their emotions to reality during this time.
-T
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Marvin-Im not the brightest bulb in the fixture, but I think I understand what you are saying.
What you describe reminds me of what Joe Beam stated in his podcast on limerence:
In his example, he was educated in religion. He knew too much about it to state that God wanted him to be with his affair partner. So he became as he describes it 'an emotional athiest'. He came to the conclusion that there was no God. He changed his values and beliefs so that he could resolve the cognitive dissonance he was experiencing in order to be with his affair partner.
As he stated it, he came to his decisions emotionally. If he had done what was best for everyone LOGICALLY, he would have returned to the marriage for his spouse, their children, families, and so on.
There does seem to be a complete disconnect from their emotions to reality during this time.
-T
Good point. My W said numerous times, before I moved out, "I know what makes sense logically. But my heart is telling me something else. I don't know which to follow." She also spoke of an overwhelming desire to run, and not knowing who she was supposed to be anymore. She said she wanted to jump in front of a train. She sobbed uncontrollably. She said she was sorry she couldn't give me what I needed right then. She also said everything was about her, now. She completely changed her clothing, and did all the usual MLC "script" related things. She was definitely in crises, and if people want to say everything she did was her choice, okay. I understand. Had I not been so devastated though, and so involved in my own turmoil, I would have viewed her as I now believe she was/is: a broken person in deep pain, fighting whatever was raging inside of her. If she was capable of choices, they weren't going to be ones with a concept of long term ramifications and they were only designed to try to find immediate relief for whatever she was going through. If I had been in better control of myself, I would have handled my interactions with her, and my decision to move out, differently in healed hindsight.
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Great read guys ! I have to say that in my opinion my wife didn't think I was going to take it so hard. She almost looked in disbelief that I took the news of an affair so hard. Then the total lack of compassion set in and I was in total WTF land. I don't know what is worse? That she knowingly destroyed our family and hurt me deeply or that she felt absolutely nothing about me at all. She does show a lot of shame and guilt now but in the beginning nothing, couldn't care if I was dead or alive.
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To answer your question: I was 14 when I started.
I agree with you: The tobacco companies I'm sure targeted children with ads and such. And made their products highly addictive.
They still didn't force me to start smoking. And they don't force me to continue smoking.
Sorry T. If I were to accept your argument then I would also have to believe that statutory rape doesn't exist. That there is nothing wrong with 14 year old girls choosing to have sex with adults. That a 14 year old girl is mature enough to make that decision. I believe you may have made my point but I may be wrong. Perhaps I should give 14 year old girls more credit for their ability to make life altering decisions.
Marvin-you lost me a little bit. But in your example, you state to imagine that they have no idea that glass is fragile.
Marvin's analogy is a good one but I'm going to take the liberty of modifying it slightly. At one time the glass item was very important to them, they placed great value in that glass item, and they carefully protected it. But the crisis they're experiencing has caused them to lose all regard for that glass item. They don't think about what will happen to the glass item if they drop it because it has lost all value. Do you think about what will happen to a McDonald's food wrapper when you discard it? Do you worry about the consequences?
It's hard for us to understand how that glass item could become meaningless to them but that's the effect of the crisis. And we can see that it's a crisis because the glass item didn't slowly lose its value over time, it was suddenly and inexplicably devalued.
But my personal opinion above is for lack of a better word my feeling for your typical garden variety MLCer who has no indication of mental illness, trauma, or any other medical cause for their behaviors.
My opinion is that this is like talking about a garden variety cardiac event that has no underlying cardiac cause. What?
You may not recognize an underlying mental illness, trauma, or other medical cause but my opinion is that it wouldn't be an MLC without it. It would be somebody who was choosing to behave badly without regard for the consequences. I know that people like that do exist but when they hurt people it isn't because of a crisis, it's normal behavior for them.
For the record, I do hope one day to quit.
I hope you do too, T. My wife's stepfather quit right after being diagnosed with lung cancer. He died 7 months later. I hope it doesn't take being diagnosed with lung cancer to motivate you to quit.
I used to tell people that it's easy to quit smoking. I probably quit 100 times. The hard part is not starting up again. I'll tell you what worked for me.
I was sitting around a campfire one night when the wind started blowing the campfire smoke into my face. I moved to get out of the smoke because breathing in the smoke was unpleasant and unsafe and then I lit up a cigarette and thought "Well isn't this stupid." I put the cigarette out and never smoked again. At that time I was smoking around 2 packs per day.
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In a way, I don't think any LBS is in a position to definitively say one way or another because none of us can be completely objective about it.
This is a good point but when an MLCer or ex-MLCer posts that it was a compulsion they were powerless to resist there are LBSes that still doubt which leads me to believe that some LBSes have already made up their mind and don't want to hear anything that doesn't support their belief. If you really want 2 plus 2 to equal 5 then it's a waste of time to try to tell you anything else. You aren't looking for knowledge or understanding, you're looking for confirmation.
Just because a cheating spouse says that a mysterious fog created a compulsion they were powerless to resist doesn't prove that what they say is true. They could say that simply because they feel it makes them look better than the alternative. They could say it because it earns them a legion of adoring LBS fans who hang on to their every word and pumps up their ego. You may be right that there are LBSes who made up their mind the opposite, but there are plenty of LBSes who want to see it as a compulsion who are more than willing to believe someone who may be lying through their teeth or keyboards telling them what they want to hear.
If we really want to get to the truth about our own situations, we have to be patient and wait for if and when our spouses give us an explanation/excuse for what they did and judge for ourselves if what they are saying is genuine or a bunch of BS.
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Marvin-Im not the brightest bulb in the fixture, but I think I understand what you are saying.
What you describe reminds me of what Joe Beam stated in his podcast on limerence:
In his example, he was educated in religion. He knew too much about it to state that God wanted him to be with his affair partner. So he became as he describes it 'an emotional athiest'. He came to the conclusion that there was no God. He changed his values and beliefs so that he could resolve the cognitive dissonance he was experiencing in order to be with his affair partner.
As he stated it, he came to his decisions emotionally. If he had done what was best for everyone LOGICALLY, he would have returned to the marriage for his spouse, their children, families, and even his affair partner, and so on.
There does seem to be a complete disconnect from their emotions to reality during this time.
-T
Terrified-There is research that shows the opposite, namely that the best decisions made are ones where the person is using their emotions, not just logic. My husband has stated and it is very clear that he has no feelings for anyone right now. It shows in the decisions he has made.
If you can feel love for someone, you can't knowingly and premeditately hurt them. If you fear God, you aren't going to be disrespecting your marriage. It sounds to me like Joe Beam made a very logical decision. He did what was immediately best for what he wanted. That's logic. It's not emotion. Emotion pushes you to do things that are good for others even if you don't necessarily benefit yourself.
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NYM
I know my h isn’t the man I married. I also know he’s deep in crisis and I also believe his MLC was a result of FOO issues. Does he have the mental strength to deal with that? I don’t think so.
I also know my sister has helped me immensely and she doesn’t have to answer questions at all but does so because of me.
I was the one who told her of this forum and how kind and understanding the people on here are as they were going through the same things I am.
She is without doubt the most honest and least egotistical person I have ever known. She doesn’t have to do this and she works a lot of hours as well as giving her free time to help in her church and volunteers to help people learn to read and write. She is selfless and kind and she will continue to answer questions about her own MLC not someone else’s. I don’t know what you don’t get about that.
Sorry Jack and I will not be hi jacking your thread.
God bless you
Shock and awe
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Terrified-There is research that shows the opposite, namely that the best decisions made are ones where the person is using their emotions, not just logic. My husband has stated and it is very clear that he has no feelings for anyone right now. It shows in the decisions he has made.
If you can feel love for someone, you can't knowingly and premeditately hurt them. If you fear God, you aren't going to be disrespecting your marriage. It sounds to me like Joe Beam made a very logical decision. He did what was immediately best for what he wanted. That's logic. It's not emotion. Emotion pushes you to do things that are good for others even if you don't necessarily benefit yourself.
NYM: emotions are the more complete assessment and understanding of “reality” than just logic, this is true. Assuming your emotional state is not fractured and you are not in a disordered state. For example a fear of a cliff edge is healthy when its working, but when it becomes a phobia where you can not go up stairs it is no longer the “best” decision. People in MLC are suffering from an emotional state of disorder, so emotional decisions are disordered. When we are in throws of emotional turmoil it is much better to make logical decisions.
My wife literally said the same words: “My head tells me this is wrong but I have to follow my emotions.” This from a woman who was deeply in pain, would change emotional states rapidly and completely unhappy. The consequences of following her emotions are obviously not going to be great.
I guess we all deal with pain and loss in different ways. Some of us reach for understanding, some of us want to blame, others try to control. And I know some (including me) do mixtures of all of the above. But I am with MBIB on this one: no one who is in a good emotional functional state will do what MLCers do. The harm they do to themselves and people they love makes no emotional nor logical sense. To treat them simply as “cheaters” or people who were “bad” is oversimplifying a terrible crises.
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exactly that Marvin
I’m with you and BIB
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It’s extremely hard for me to think that my H would just abandon me and stop communicating when I got cancer, because that requires me to believe that he not only doesn’t care about me now, but never cared, because a person wouldn’t abandon someone they once loved who now has cancer, even if they no longer love them.
So it’s easier for me to believe he must be in an emotional crisis or impaired in some way.
Bug is that just how I deal with my own cognitive dissonance?
Absolutely no way to know what’s true. The only truth I know is that my life and my health have value to me and spending time trying to figure out why he did what he did doesn’t serve me at all.
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Real quick I want to address the analogy the brain applied above with statutory rape. I don't see how that was relavent since there is no "3rd party" to lay blame on...
Some of this maybe due to our age differences brian? In the 80s when I grew up, it was WELL known that tobacco was bad. Even at 14 years old, I knew of the health risks and how bad it was for you, etc. So although you might say I wasn't of legal age, therefore I was unable to make life altering decisions, from a legal standpoint you would be correct. From a practical standpoint, I would disagree. I knew what I was getting into. Maybe not the FULL ramifications of my actions, but I knew.
And revealing MY own foo issues, truth be told, the bully down the street that I was trying to act cool in front of had MORE to do with my decision to smoke than did the Phillip Morris Tobacco company. Should I hold him liable should I get ill?
i just believe at SOME point you have to own up to your own choices, and stop trying to blame every body else for your issues. (not you personally...that is meant in a generic fashion).
-T
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I've been reading along I just have a few things to say, and I'll shut up.
About smoking? Unless someone has been addicting to cigarettes for 30/40 or more years you have no idea how strong the addiction is.
I know of NO ONE, not one person who smokes who wouldn't love to quit. They know full well how bad it is for them, plus how expensive it is. Smokers are not stupid people.
I had a SIL who when into treatment years ago for a very bad addiction to alcohol, seeing bugs on the walls, etc,.who also smoked.
She eventually quit both but when asked what was easier for her she said, she would quit drinking "5 times over" before she would quit cigarettes.
She said maybe because most alcoholics don't drink 24/7 or they would be dead, where they did smoke 24/7. It was much more of their daily life style than drinking was.
I do agree with T though, we chose to smoke. That is on us. Personal responsibility means you don't put blame on anyone but yourself for your choices in life. If you try heroin, who's fault is that? The drug dealers or yours?
About MLCers? I have great empathy for all of them. I agree with Shock's Sis, who in their right mind would choose to have a midlife crisis? No decent, normal person I know. It's a very scary, confusing, painfully dark time for them.
I never blamed my H for his.
Bottom line is IF they really felt they were doing the right thing, then why the guilt?
My opinion is, they do know right from wrong, even in their fogged up brain.
If they feel no guilt, ok than maybe it is not a MLC, just an unhappy spouse who wanted out.
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Choice to have MLC. Choices made during MLC. Two different issues. We might be mixing up the two?
I acknowledge that H did not choose to have MLC. (Who does?! ::))
I acknowledge that MLC explains H’s bad choices.
I acknowledge and have deep empathy for his pain he suffered during crisis.
Extenuating circumstances, yes.
Understandable, yes.
But...
He was responsible for all his choices during his crisis. He says so and I fully agree. No plea of ‘diminished responsibilities’ here.
My recognition of his full personal responsibility does not mean that I hold any animosity, bitterness or vindictiveness toward him. Blame game is not on my mind. Because I have forgiven him. Because I’m out of LBS fog and can face naked truth - he did it, not the fog, not OW, not alcohol, not confusion.
I know it’s not just my MLCer who deflected his responsibility for his actions but I, the LBS, did that on his behalf as well. And I did a really good job of it.
If one is intent on taking away personal responsibility from MLCer, which is not LBS’s prerogative in the first place, the question is not about the verdict on MLCer but the motive of the LBS who exonerates MLCer’s actions. In my view anyway.
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You win T. I agree. It's totally your fault that you're a smoker. :D
Now let's return to the point of the discussion. Forget about why you started. Why do you continue?
You stated that you started when you were 14 "back in the 80s" so you've been doing it for at least 30 years. You knew all along that it's bad for you. You knew all along that it could eventually kill you. You're smart enough to realize that your second hand smoke could be harming other people, even your own children. Knowing the type of person you are, I would be surprised if you didn't feel some guilt about that. And yet, you continue to smoke and you claim that it's your choice. So what you're telling me is that you've been hurting yourself and your family by your own choice and that you plan to continue? Why would you choose to do that? Maybe you can explain it to me because I don't understand.
Is it possible for an MLCer to believe what they're doing is wrong, perhaps even feel guilty about it, yet feel powerless to stop? I believe it is because I know that T is a nice guy, that he wouldn't hurt himself or others on purpose, and yet he does just that by smoking and he has stated that he feels powerless to stop. But stopping is just a choice. For the smoker. And for the MLCer. Maybe they just need to hit rock bottom.
I'm sorry T. I think you're a great guy but smoking was your analogy. Did you quit yet? I know you can do it. I'm weak and I did it. You just have to want it badly enough.
Many LBSes have posted about the FOO issues their MLCers seem to be dealing with because of childhood neglect and abuse. They didn't choose to be neglected or abused. They were just children. Should we show them less understanding, compassion, forgiveness, than we have for cigarette smokers who made the choice to start smoking, alcoholics who made the choice to start drinking, addicts who made the choice to start taking drugs?
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Hi Marvin, it makes sense for sure, I have been trying to find the root of the problem since bomb drop to take control back and hopefully put things behind me. I blamed myself initially for everything and self medicated nightly just to get to sleep as my anxiety levels were through the roof.
I had therapy in the early years it did help a little. I went out to try to GAL for a few years but only ended up feeling our of place as a single man when I actually felt like a married man inside. I purposefully avoided parks and play areas where families we’re having fun as I couldn’t stop tears flowing from my eyes when talking to them. I took every opportunity to learn and study I could fit into my life as for hours I had to concentrate and keep the thoughts of what happened at bay.
Problem was they took me in my sleep I have had them for years and they wake me up in the early hours in a bath of sweat. I might try hypnotism i can’t tell my doctor as I deal with explosives and I think it might be PTSD related and I’d have my licences revoked.
I think hypnotism sworth a try. I’m sorry you have had to suffer too it is not a nice place to be. When my leg heals and I can walk properly and drive again I will have another go trying to GAL but I can’t face another relationship for now and I doubt I ever will. Having your decisions made by lawyers and judges is really disabling as a man, it was awful I felt like they were a$$ ra$ing me.
I was divorced from my adulterous first wife of four years and only took 6 months to get back to myself. It was easier to heal as I told her to take a hike and although upset I was in control. My last adulterous wife lasted 25 years the attachment goes much deeper and I had absolutely no control. My dreams relate to the trauma and injustices I endured, this ones a hard one to bounce back from.
I constantly try to forget things about the bad times and I got a lot better when I was in University my course assignments kept me flat out and exhausted I grabbed what little sleep I could but the dreams kept waking me up they are always there waiting for me and probably even if I found another love and was happy they would remain etched in my soul. They are baggage I would gladly get rid of if I could.Your advice is very helpful Marvin thank you.
Kind regards
Jack
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Brain,
Okay, I am really getting this thread waaaayyyy off track. I'll just state my position one last time, hopefully in a manner better than I have done thus far, and then let it go.
The smoking thing was just an analogy. MLC (especially the affair to the OP) has often been compared to other addictions. That was the point I was trying to make. Stopping smoking is EXTREMELY difficult for a lot of folks. Just like I'm sure giving up the 'high' you get from an affair partner is probably EXTREMELY difficult to give up as well. These are things that I dare say most people just can't find the strength to do. So I recognize the almost addiction-like attraction running away has. I get that. And I agree as well.
But to say one had NO CHOICE is a lie. If I said I CAN'T stop smoking, it would be a lie. If I said its EXTREMELY difficult for me to stop smoking, that would be a truth. That is the only point I was trying to make.
-T
PS I never smoked in my house in 'my old life'. I either smoked in the garage, or outside only. And congrats Brain for kicking such a filthy habit.
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Perhaps terrified, the "choice" that they make while they are in a crisis is not the "choice" they would make if they were not in a crisis.
They didn't do anything to send them into the crisis by choice...but they are affected never the less in ways that we don't completely understand.
I think the word "choice" has high meaning for you. I look at it more from the actions and behaviours associated with being in a crisis are in some ways indicative of the crisis. I don't use the word choice so much as they may not be totally in control of what they are doing as they try and resolve something inside of them that has been tearing them apart for years.
Jackolar,
After many years, I was still feeling deep depression and sadness. I had therapy after BD but several years later, I realized I was stuck. It was determined that I was experiencing PTSD as many LBSers do and I found a therapist who deals with mind body work. I saw her for 2 years and recently went by for a "tune up". It has helped me very much.
Others have used EMDR quite successfully.
I also accept now, that the end of my marriage, my family, the life I adored is over. I didn't cause it to be and I cannot do anything to bring him home...that acceptance helps me a great deal also.
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...
I think the word "choice" has high meaning for you....
Perhaps you are right. Again this is such a hard topic to discuss because we all have our own opinions, beliefs, experiences, and even thoughts on 'why' this happened in the first place.
Now we haven't experienced it here on HS that I know of, but most of us have seen middle-age love triangles that ended up in murder. I'm sure at least a few of those folks were not career criminals or psychopaths, but did just end up going completely off the rails. Again thank God we haven't had anything like that happen here that I am aware of. In quite a few of these cases, the stories reeked of MLC. In cases such as these, do you think the conspirator didn't have a choice? Should their responsibility be lessened due to diminished capacity? That's a rhetorical question by the way-each person will feel differently based on their values, beliefs, and so on.
-T
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Acorn even if they had no control over their choices, their choices hurt us. In the end this is what they should be accounting for. If after all this my husband told me he was sorry that his fog made him do it, that would show he had little awareness of the effects
of his actions and was still focused on himself
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Jackolar,
After many years, I was still feeling deep depression and sadness. I had therapy after BD but several years later, I realized I was stuck. It was determined that I was experiencing PTSD as many LBSers do and I found a therapist who deals with mind body work. I saw her for 2 years and recently went by for a "tune up". It has helped me very much.
Others have used EMDR quite successfully.
Jack: I just want to echo this. I am sure you already know this, but what you are experiencing is PTSD from having suffered through a spouses MLC. I know I have PTSD from it, and it even triggered much older wounds that were there. PTSD won’t respond well to just talk therapy, nor is it really treatable by medication. But there are other modalities like xyzcf suggests that will actually start helping you release that trauma and start healing. I don’t know if its an option but it definitely is something that you may find very worthwhile.
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Acorn even if they had no control over their choices, their choices hurt us. In the end this is what they should be accounting for. If after all this my husband told me he was sorry that his fog made him do it, that would show he had little awareness of the effects
of his actions and was still focused on himself
Yes, NYM, my H’s choices hurt me so deeply that I no longer wanted to live...
If he had kept on blaming his crisis, this mysterious ‘fog’, MLC compulsion, whatever, then there would be little guilt for him to feel (if he didn’t do it, he can’t point finger at himself) and, as a natural consequence, no redemptive actions could follow. That would also indicate that he is lingering in the deep recesses of MLC tunnel.
That’s why I said that he is aware that he did not choose to have MLC but no one, nothing made him do what he did. I doubt that reconciliation could even be considered with a person that deflect his personal responsibilities to something like ‘the fog’ that cannot even defend itself. When I was dying to reconcile with him, no matter what, I freely gave the blame over to anything other than H. It was not healthy for me to think that way. I was protecting my fragile self and I was in my own LBS tunnel.
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We've been told that men can't understand what it's like to experience peri-menopause or menopause. That only a woman who has been through it could really understand it. Everyone seems to have accepted that as truth.
Which leaves me wondering why so many on here who never experienced MLC or the fog think they know what they're like. How can you be so sure what it's like if you haven't ever experienced it? I just don't understand.
But what I really don't understand is why I care so much about helping people understand what it's like. I've experienced the fog. I know what it's like and whether anyone on here understands what it's like doesn't change my experience. So why do I spend so much time trying to explain it?. When I first came to this site five years ago we used to describe it as being like the MLCer was being sucked into a vortex, which I think is an apt description. Resistance if futile, the vortex is too powerful.
I need to remove myself from this. God has only given me a certain amount of time and I spend way too much of it on here making myself unpopular by advocating for an unpopular point of view. I'm sorry if I've offended anyone, especially my old friend T. Light 'em if you've got 'em if that's really what you want to do but I do hate to see a Mustang with a dirty ashtray.
I think I'm going to check in with my buddy Don Quixote and see if he needs a hand fighting windmills.
I really miss my wife. I can't believe this is my life now.
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...
I really miss my wife.
I am really sorry. Your a great guy and didn't deserve what happened to you. None of us did. I am sorry to see that this site has to even exist at all and that anyone should find themselves here. BUT...
...
I can't believe this is my life now.
It doesn't have to be. You too have a choice, my friend. You can choose to look backward at what was or choose to look forward at what could be.
I wish you the best.
-T
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So, moving back to whatever pause. When I started down THAT path, I started having anxiety attacks. Yes, the chemical changes caused a physical reaction in my system. I would shake, fear everything, mind would race, etc. People made me cranky because I had no control over how I felt at that time. So yes, there was a physical and maybe mental aspect that I could not control. What I could control was how I dealt with it. I could have screamed at everyone to leave me alone. I could have melted into a quivering puddle. I could have gone out and found an om who would make me feel safe. I did NONE of those things. I tried exercise, relaxation techniques, vitamin suppliments until I found what worked (for me it was B-complex, for my sister a therapist. We all find what works for us). I did NOT say "I'm anxious and that makes me unhappy so it must be everyone else's fault". It's why my personal anecdote says MLC is NOT just whatever pause. I've watched my friend, 9 years younger, navigating this same path, though she's got a rocky MLT or mild MLC going. She also describes not knowing why she is doing something she normally would not. My questioning of her tells me all her teenage behavior is based on not getting to be a teenager . She worked in the family business from the time she was little. And while she has no SO to cheat on, she has had ample opportunity to latch onto a married man. Yet that line holds strong-NO. Other lines appear to change and be blurry. She is not the same person I met 25+years ago, she is far less mature now.
What is it that could destroy enough of your brain cells to think cheating on your spouse, abandoning your kids, stealing all the money, leaving your spouse without a place to live are in any way ok? If dissociation is actually the key, then it can't be just whateverpause, it has to be individual situational. And yet, it does seem to happen more frequently at a set of ages, but not always.
It still sounds like a combo of things, including core personality.
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Offroad, I read what you wrote about your friend before and I just wanted to mention that it was very interesting and enlightening and wanted to thank you for sharing.
About controlling how someone deals with menopause, you are right. I've seen this even in disabled people. There are some disabled people who make the most of their lives in spite of their limitations and they can be inspiring. And then there are those who just let it bring them down and become bitter, complain and make excuses for their lack of attempting anything in their life. I had the good fortune of working for someone like the former when I was in college and I never forgot it. It has always made me realize that we still have choices within the physical confines we are dealt in our lives. We still have a range of limits we can push, or complain about.
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Choice to have MLC. Choices made during MLC. Two different issues. We might be mixing up the two?
I acknowledge that H did not choose to have MLC. (Who does?! ::))
I acknowledge that MLC explains H’s bad choices.
I acknowledge and have deep empathy for his pain he suffered during crisis.
Extenuating circumstances, yes.
Understandable, yes.
But...
He was responsible for all his choices during his crisis. He says so and I fully agree. No plea of ‘diminished responsibilities’ here.
My recognition of his full personal responsibility does not mean that I hold any animosity, bitterness or vindictiveness toward him. Blame game is not on my mind. Because I have forgiven him. Because I’m out of LBS fog and can face naked truth - he did it, not the fog, not OW, not alcohol, not confusion.
I know it’s not just my MLCer who deflected his responsibility for his actions but I, the LBS, did that on his behalf as well. And I did a really good job of it.
If one is intent on taking away personal responsibility from MLCer, which is not LBS’s prerogative in the first place, the question is not about the verdict on MLCer but the motive of the LBS who exonerates MLCer’s actions. In my view anyway.
This makes sense to me and is probably where I have come to rest as an LBS.
I think my xh had broken pieces held together and then unravelled into some kind of WIW crisis. I don't think he chose that crisis, and that his broken bits were formed by other humans mostly and i have compassion for him experiencing that. Which is perhaps influenced by my own experience of PTSD 'fog'. And I also did neither of us much service by my own uninvited LBS mindreading excuses on his behalf. Acorn talked about having a metaphorical pink tutu and I recognise that in myself. I simply did not want to swallow that my then h was capable of choosing to do what he did. But he was and I was wrong.
But I agree that I made choices even when I felt in the grip of PTSD, some good, some not, some lines I wouldn't cross bc of my own character. Choices in the run up towards PTSD too. The same is true for my xh as i see it. And I didn't start to recover until I took responsibility entirely for my own choices and recovery. Likely it is the same for my xh and I saw no evidence that he reached that point when I still had contact with him. To be fair, he may be doing so now, or may in the future, no way of knowing. I hope so bc I loved him for long enough to hope that he recovers from WIW happened to him and does not hurt himself or others any more. But it also isn't my business if he does or not.
Whatever the conditions or context, life is formed by an unfolding chain of our choices isn't it? Every time I chose not to pick up a ringing phone bc I was triggered, I still made a choice which had impact. Every time my xh chose to ignore me or lie about something important, the same. Embracing agency can feel painful but it is the road out I think.
And perhaps most useful of all is to consider that the same principle applies to recovering from what happened to us as LBS. Exactly the same.
We did not choose our circumstances and we deserve compassion for them. We have made choices along the way, some poor and some not. But if we keep focusing a lot on why it happened or other people's choices, I think without meaning to do so, it distracts us from our own responsibility to heal regardless. What happened wasn't our fault; how we recover is our responsibility. Which is also the message that ShockSis says repeatedly for the LBS. in the end, i think there is a time when we decide to fight for ourselves...and like giving up smoking, it may be extremely difficult but it can be done if we want it enough...and owning our choices unvarnished is a necessary step...same for any recovering MLCer I'd suggest.
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NYM
What exactly do you mean by “even in disabled people “? I find that statement quite offensive as if we who have a disability aren’t already viewed differently from the rest of society it is exactly that kind of wording that makes us feel less than we are and I would suggest you take out that example as I for one feel very angry and very offended by it.
Shock and awe
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I often see things in goner nym’s posts that I find offensive. But I’m failing to see it in her example of disabled people who can choose to persevere or let their disabilities define them and keep them from living life to the fullest. And I say that as someone with a very disabled sister and as someone who now has multiple disabilities.
Perhaps I didn’t read close enough Shock, but it seems you are carrying your frustration with goner’s criticism of your sister over into this post and they are two different situations.
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No Nas
I am offended because that particular phrase could have said even in men or even in women for every disabled person is one or the other. I simply don’t like how disablement was used as an example and whatever NYM and my sister are up to is their business and has no baring whatsoever on my anger at that statement.
I am sorry if you don’t agree but that is up to you. I do not think disabled people should be used as an example of choices.
I repeat my request to change or remove it.
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And I repeat my opinion that I’m baffled by your need to have the statement removed. It is not offensive, nor is it disparaging of disabled people. In fact, as someone with disabilities and with a disabled sister, I like when people point out that being disabled does not have to be a deterrent to a full life. I don’t think you have explained at all why you are finding it offensive. It doesn’t seem that your disabilities have led you to lead a less than full life. And that something to be proud of. So the anger seems misplaced and I’m puzzled by it. I am personally more offended at your demand to have a statement removed on a forum that allows free speech.
That’s not how we deal with these things on this forum. This forum is about mature people having discussions and expressing their opinions freely. Not about people demanding that a statement that makes them personally feel bad for their own internal reasons be removed.
Again, I implore everyone to please learn from the mistakes of the past. If someone says something that upsets you, it’s your right to feel upset but it’s not everybody else’s responsibility to fix it. And if a person is continuously upsetting you, simply “canceling” them is not the culture that we want to have for this forum. Is it??
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Offroad was talking about menopause and its effect on her, which in a way was a temporary disability, and I admire how she handled it. I talked about people I knew, including one who had a disability that I greatly admired because he was able to do things that even most ably bodied men would even bother to attempt and who I would emulate if I ever found myself in a similar situation. I compared that person to others I have met in real life who were the opposite. What does that have to do with anyone in this forum at all?
I would suggest that there are probably a fair number of people on here who are dealing with disabilities and other physical or even mental challenges who are like the man I admired and because they live their lives to the fullest, they do not feel the need to even define themselves in this forum by these conditions because they have psychologically overcome those limitations. They could even be posting on or reading this thread and you wouldn't even know it.
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I think as LBS we have to be very careful not to look for any excuse to give to our MLCer so that we can justify still loving and wanting them. To prove that we are right. That they are just temporarily lost. That what we had was real.
Some of us come here hoping it is MLC because they may come out of it, some of us come here hoping it is something else that can be cured...or fixed...or changed. Anything to get them back.
I think it is much harder to accept that while MLC or whatever it is...is a compulsion...it is still all very much a choice.
If they had a mental breakdown, went wild for a week or two...then returned to their normal selves...it would be different. You could say it was just due to stress, or some unfulfilled desire..or some temporary lapse in judgement.
But these MLCers make CHOICES for years. And the consistent choices is not us.
If it was really all about mentally being forced or compelled then..well every now and then they would choose us. Really choose us.
But how can we convince ourselves when they are away for years, consistently choosing something else that it is not their choice at all?
That feels like denial.
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It’s a request not a demand.
I feel as a forum of freedom of speech it’s my right to feel the way I do and express that. It’s a two way street after all.
What I do know is I personally would not have used that as an example for precisely the reason it has evoked anger.
I find it in bad taste and no matter how much you may say it’s ok it isn’t.
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FWIW,
There is the hormone and brain confusion of menopause/andropause. A list of attachment disorders. And a slew of fear responses. Limerence from an Affair. And then whatever type of abuse and the age at which it occurred that is happening here.
It’s IMO the perfect storm of all these things combined that result in what we call MLC.
What shock has described sounds like, or could be the combination of the limerence of an affair, menopause and a fear response that is dissociative, due to FOO issues.
Does it really matter?
We are to unique and complex for simple answers and simple solutions. You fell In love with a person because your soul saw their’s and said....”here is a person that will bring all my unhealed hurts to the surface so I can fix them.”
That is what marriage is....that is what relationships are....refining.
We can argue over this one thing....but at most it is a component of what happened.
Each of us is responsible for healing our own hurts instead of using those hurts to hurt other people. Is there a compulsion to it.....maybe....but very frankly if the MLCer had taken ownership and responsibility earlier and worked through their own stuff the situation may have been different.
That they did not, and that you did not prior to this is now and unchangeable, and the only thing you can do with things from the past is learn from it.
Just my opinion....for what it’s worth.
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I agree, Mort.
It’s a request not a demand.
I feel as a forum of freedom of speech it’s my right to feel the way I do and express that. It’s a two way street after all.
What I do know is I personally would not have used that as an example for precisely the reason it has evoked anger.
I find it in bad taste and no matter how much you may say it’s ok it isn’t.
Absolutely 100% completely positively unequivocably inarguably true that it is your right to feel however you feel about the statement...and to express how you feel. But asking for it to be removed because of how it makes YOU feel is what I am objecting to.
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I see Nothing wrong or offensive in NYMs post About disabled People. I have no idea what you read that could have offended you S. Maybe you should go back and read it again, she is just saying that everybody has the choice to either:-
A/ make the most of their situation
or
B/ Play the victim, give everybody and everything else the blame and give up.
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A lot of us have angry MLCers. One thing this experience teaches us is not to cave in to the unreasonable demands of an angry MLCer because they are selfish attempts at controlling us and gaslighting us. It's an experience that we can apply in all aspects of our life, including our interactions with others in this forum. And the anger of a stranger is really just like water off a duck's back after living with a monster for several years.
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The post was fine.
As was Anjae.
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NYM
I am not a mlcer I am a lbs. my sister is the ex mlcer.
I requested not demanded and on that note I shall leave this thread and Jackolar I apologise for the hijack
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It has occurred to me that the word "choice" may be a problem depending on where you sit. For me, if my mlcer knows right from wrong, and he chose do behave and leave as he did, that it imo a problem with HIM. For some if their MLCER knows right from wrong and chose to behave and leave in the manner they did, it makes the LBS feel like it was their own fault, like they were lacking. For some, if it isn't the MLCers "fault", as in "they had no choice", then they can justify still wanting them back, not realizing that none of us has to justify anything. I've always said, I don't like who my mlcer is now. It doesn't mean I might not like who he ends up. I don't have to justify how I feel or my opinon to anyone. Nor would I be offended if someone disagreed with me.
MLCers do what they do. They make choices, ill informed by a screwed up brain or not. Those choices sometimes have devastating effects on those around them. Why they do it might make a difference for some, but getting stuck in their "whys" does not necessarily help. And I mean stuck, not just learning.
Of course maybe someone here will write a paper and get a ball rolling on research of MLC. You never know..
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Hi all, I will try and get back to your posts as soon as I can, I have got to do my accounts for the next couple of days so it may take a while. I’ve read the for and against for andropause/ menopause having links to midlife crisis and from my observations you are actually both right. The two opposing opinions suggested to me there are two common components in making these choices which are gender and individual perception of the perceived severity of the effects of hormones.
What I see is there are individual differences and levels to the extent hormones effect either gender. A mild one with little effect, a midrange one with more effect an a severe one with lots of effect on the individual and it’s this one that I believe is where the link to MLC may be.From here on I will be referring to the effects of severe hormonal dis regulation that may be a component in some MLC individuals. I’m looking at the worst cases.
My thoughts are that perception or rather an altered perception brought about by hormones surging during a severe midlife transition, coupled with other internal factors such as Foo issues and external factors such as life stressors may contribute to the MLC switch being flipped.
Why would a normally faithful spouse flip to the polar opposite of who they were, break they vows, lie, commit adultery and destroy their marriage? Because their perception of their life and in particular their spouse has changed due to those surging hormones and internal \ external influences during this time. While some people can adapt and react to these changes and still act appropriately some cannot and it affects them more severely and they act inappropriately.
They no longer love us as they perceive us as being causal to this perception change. We were great now we are dog cr&p to them eventually we become their enemy something annoying and resentment starts to build towards the spouse. They may even get to the stage where they perceive we frighten them and they run to escape us.
So some but not all decide to look around for someone with a better fit to they new perceptions. They are re-evaluating their lives and taking actions that might not occur if hormones were stabilised by medication and they waited for 10/15 years for the hormones to settle down enough to achieve balance again.
They are in a period of severe hormonal dysregulation and although many can function seemingly normally to others, albeit with a refocused view of their life and love. Some are aware of what’s behind it and seek medical advice and medication, some choose not to take the advice given to them others may be misdiagnosed and on the wrong meds, while some may be unaware of what’s driving their emotions and FEELINGS during this phase.
I will continue this when I get time, but for now remember the word “Feelings” did anyone hear this mentioned by their MLCer, mine did, think it over for now.
Kind regards
Jack
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Disillusioned I think your right too, dysregulated hormones can alter people’s behaviours drastically. If you get chance post the same article on this thread it sounds good and I bet interested people would like to read it.
Quote
“I also know my D attorney, a woman, asked me several pointed questions when we first met: "Is your wife menopausal? Is there an OP? What do you know about mid-life crises?" 30 years of practice in family law lead her to believe hormones are definitely related in both men and women.”
My lawyer was a woman she told me my wife seems cold when she had talked to her. I didn’t know a lot about MLC then.
Kind regards
Jackolar
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If one thinks depression is a cause of mlc then menopause is a possible cause. I go to a professor who opened the World’s first menopause clinic and has awards for his academic work. He believe that hormone imbalance often results in people being prescribed anti depressants. This covers pre and post party women, those with menstrual issues and women who are in menopause and beyond.he believes hrt/endocrine treatment is far preferable to anti depressants.
I am prescribed natural oestrogen and testosterone. Unless something untoward occurs I will continue indefinitely. I didn’t have particular problems- when I went to him I described myself as ‘the worried well’ but stiff joints, general lack of interest, and tiredness and anxiety seemed to disappear. My skin is good (for my age)I
As Nah points out, none of these things means menopause made me lie and sleep with men other than my husband - in fact im now more likely to do so as Im a lot livelier! but despite being a natural Phenomenon, it, like childbirth or menarche, causes more issues than are generally recognised because we all just get on with life and accept small changes and inconveniences.
Like others on here though, I don’t think it can cause mlc -It’s more of a general health/psychological health issue.
Hi Nerrisa, I’m glad you can see this too and it looks like you did the right things at the right time to seek medical help. Not everyone going through it will have an MLC I think only severe hormonal disregulation above and below their normal tolerance levels will contribute to a MLC, coupled with Foo issues and other life stressors.
My thoughts are once the tolerance level is breached the Amygdala is dysregulated in both males and females this has a very powerful influence on behaviour and can also make people act inappropriately. Throw that in the mix with other issues and it may be involved in some MLC cases.
Kind regards
Jack
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Hi Brain, I see a lot of similarities with our quest for understanding. Did your research show up Amygdala dis regulation, it can alter behaviours and induce hyper sexuality in some people who’s hormones are above their normally set levels.
I think that may have been causal in my situation it’s the only thing that fits other than her being a bad girl all along and she wasn’t she was a Step ford wife prior but she never let on she was on the change to me, perhaps she didn’t know herself at the time.
Kind regards
Jack
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I would be curious if the fear of Menopause can help push a woman into MLC.
I know W is deathly afraid of Menopause. She has a complete histo and was gutted several years ago...... hormone replacement since then (and she's never missed a pill, not even in MLC.... it's that important to her).
Men don't and can't understand what it's like to face going into this, and we can't understand what it's like to go thru it. Women have so many moving parts, so complicated and intricate. So many powerful chemicals compared to us.
-SS
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Yes, MLC in women is caused by menopause. It's very clear: men-o-pause. It's when women take a pause from the men in their lives because they become o so repulsive.
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Yes, MLC in women is caused by menopause. It's very clear: men-o-pause. It's when women take a pause from the men in their lives because they become o so repulsive.
Womansplaining.
And I never knew there was a comedic streak hiding somewhere inside NYM. ;D
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I would be curious if the fear of Menopause can help push a woman into MLC.
I know W is deathly afraid of Menopause. She has a complete histo and was gutted several years ago...... hormone replacement since then (and she's never missed a pill, not even in MLC.... it's that important to her).
Men don't and can't understand what it's like to face going into this, and we can't understand what it's like to go thru it. Women have so many moving parts, so complicated and intricate. So many powerful chemicals compared to us.
-SS
Standing, confusing as to why you think your wife has a major fear of menopause, since if she underwent a complete hysterectomy, she would have been thrown into immediate surgically induced menopause.
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Hi Brain, I see a lot of similarities with our quest for understanding. Did your research show up Amygdala dis regulation, it can alter behaviours and induce hyper sexuality in some people who’s hormones are above their normally set levels.
I think that may have been causal in my situation it’s the only thing that fits other than her being a bad girl all along and she wasn’t she was a Step ford wife prior but she never let on she was on the change to me, perhaps she didn’t know herself at the time.
Kind regards
Jack
Jack. Just curious.
If you somehow was handed the answer of why this all happened, what would you do with it and how would it change anything?
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From the NHS website:
Hormone replacement therapy (HRT)
You may be offered HRT after having your ovaries removed. This replaces some of the hormones your ovaries used to produce and relieves any menopausal symptoms you may have.
It's unlikely that the HRT you're offered will exactly match the hormones your ovaries previously produced.
The amount of hormones a woman produces can vary greatly, and you may need to try different doses and brands of HRT before you find one that feels suitable.
Not everyone is suitable for HRT. For example, it's not recommended for women who have had a hormone-dependent type of breast cancer or liver disease.
It's important to let your surgeon know about any such health problems you have had.
If you're able to have HRT and both of your ovaries have been removed, it's important to continue with the treatment until you reach the normal age for the menopause (51 is the average age).
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NYM
I am not a mlcer I am a lbs. my sister is the ex mlcer.
I requested not demanded and on that note I shall leave this thread and Jackolar I apologise for the hijack
Hi Shock, your always welcome on my threads, post as much as you like, thank you and ShockSis for your understanding and help.
Kind regards
Jack
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I would be curious if the fear of Menopause can help push a woman into MLC.
I know W is deathly afraid of Menopause. She has a complete histo and was gutted several years ago...... hormone replacement since then (and she's never missed a pill, not even in MLC.... it's that important to her).
Men don't and can't understand what it's like to face going into this, and we can't understand what it's like to go thru it. Women have so many moving parts, so complicated and intricate. So many powerful chemicals compared to us.
-SS
Hi SS, yes they have a harder time as they go through it more quickly than men, we drop gradually 1% every year past 30 while their fluctuates more. It can’t be a very nice thing to go through.
Kind regards
Jack
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I wonder if someone should start a thread titled, ‘Andropause - split from Menopause’.
Seriously, though, it’s in our nature to look for the causes for heartbreaking events in our lives. Perfectly understandable. However, one can obsess about the causes and spend far too much time and energy on ‘whodunnit’ quest. When is enough enough?
The real question is, how does one let go of focussing on people and things we can do nothing about and refocus on living our own each and every day well.
Yes, MLC in women is caused by menopause. It's very clear: men-o-pause. It's when women take a pause from the men in their lives because they become o so repulsive.
This is not all joke but actually discussed rather often in books and media when the topic of middle aged women pops up.
At a certain point in a woman’s life, she may seek emancipation from a spouse that may have been emotionally chaining her through the means of ‘rescuer’, ‘protecting knight on a white horse’, ‘wife owner’, male chauvinism, or misogyny. Basically, she gets sick of being considered a second class citizen in her own marriage.
Just my 2 cents’.
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They don’t want to here that, Acorn, it must be “The menopause” or “The Fog”, or something else, it just can’t be that women of a certain age sometimes want to escape and just go about it the wrong way. How would we know? We don’t know their wives, we are just women of the same age who are also going through the same issues.
Also, please realize that as women we are very aware of our hormonal fluctuations since we had a monthly reminder for about 30-40 years.
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And oddly enough, there were monthly fluctuations in my XH'S mood swings (I could actually track it) but everyone seems to like to pretend that men's hormones never fluctuate. Because it shows as behavioral, not overtly physical.
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They don’t want to here that, Acorn, it must be “The menopause” or “The Fog”, or something else, it just can’t be that women of a certain age sometimes want to escape and just go about it the wrong way. How would we know? We don’t know their wives, we are just women of the same age who are also going through the same issues.
Also, please realize that as women we are very aware of our hormonal fluctuations since we had a monthly reminder for about 30-40 years.
Not only are we, as women, much more aware of our hormonal fluctuations, we really need to be careful about spreading misinformation about the function of the human body and brain. Just recently someone made a post about the difference between the gray and white matter in women and men’s brains. They actually had it backwards.
Please remember that no one on here is an expert. No one can be an expert anyway in something that is not well understood or even recognized as an actual issue within the larger scientific or medical community. There may be people on here who are actually doctors, scientists, physicist etc., but in the end we are all strangers on an Internet forum, not researchers. And particularly with people who have no background in medicine or research or science, we should not be presenting our ideas as factual statements about the way men or women behave due to their brains or their chemical makeup or hormones or whatnot.
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I really never imagined this thread would be so active ..and rather interesting. I do not believe that menopause can "cause " a MLC reaction. I am firmly of the opinion that it is a result of childhood issues , trauma etc. I really struggled in menopause ...very badly. Sat on the cold ceramic floor and bawled my eyes out on more than 1 occasion from severe unrelenting hotflashes that were accompanied with surges of anxiety . Lack of sleep , moodiness etc etc . I tried so many products, creams , stupid teas and finally HRT. None of it helped. I was miserable and in fact still struggling with hot flashes . Did I think about running away, blowing up my family, not being "happy"...not even for 1 second. Can some women do that as a result of a normal life change ? Yes, I guess they could if there were other underlying issues. Just my opinion. My mother used to say that some women in menopause ended up in the "looney bin" … , so maybe some do loose it entirely but I doubt it is that common now.
To add a twist from my own experience , my husband was deeply effected by MY menopause. As odd as this may sound , he has repeatedly said "my wife was suffering and I could not "fix it". I could not do anything about it or to help her. I tried to help..I drove her to appointments, PU medications...but I could not help her ". He told every therapist we saw this story until I was done listening . As if he could stop menopause or be "mother nature". But ( to him) it was in the perfect -storm mix and he was reacting to it from his already struggling self. According to him , he was devastated that he was helpless and could not "fix it".
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They don’t want to here that, Acorn, it must be “The menopause” or “The Fog”, or something else, it just can’t be that women of a certain age sometimes want to escape and just go about it the wrong way. How would we know? We don’t know their wives, we are just women of the same age who are also going through the same issues.
They don’t want to here that, Jack, it must be MLC, it can’t be that men of a certain age sometimes want to escape and just go about it the wrong way. How would we know? We don’t know their husbands, we are just men of the same age who are also going through the same issues.
Does anyone think this is offensive? Or at least insensitive?
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Maybe we should have a thread on how men cope with erectile dysfunction as they age and all the women can weigh in.
::)
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They don’t want to here that, Acorn, it must be “The menopause” or “The Fog”, or something else, it just can’t be that women of a certain age sometimes want to escape and just go about it the wrong way. How would we know? We don’t know their wives, we are just women of the same age who are also going through the same issues.
They don’t want to here that, Jack, it must be MLC, it can’t be that men of a certain age sometimes want to escape and just go about it the wrong way. How would we know? We don’t know their husbands, we are just men of the same age who are also going through the same issues.
Does anyone think this is offensive? Or at least insensitive?
It is a possibility. I have posted that before. Sometimes men feel bad about aging and start looking to stroke their ego. It gets out of hand and they can’t back up.
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They don’t want to here that, Acorn, it must be “The menopause” or “The Fog”, or something else, it just can’t be that women of a certain age sometimes want to escape and just go about it the wrong way. How would we know? We don’t know their wives, we are just women of the same age who are also going through the same issues.
They don’t want to here that, Jack, it must be MLC, it can’t be that men of a certain age sometimes want to escape and just go about it the wrong way. How would we know? We don’t know their husbands, we are just men of the same age who are also going through the same issues.
Does anyone think this is offensive? Or at least insensitive?
I think in large part many people understood that Nah was speaking specifically about the handful of men on here who continue to express unevolved and often misinformed ideas about women in general.
I can’t speak for nah but I would place a bet that she wasn’t talking about all the men on this forum or all men in general.
IMO there has been some alarming misinformation about gender differences being bandied about here lately. And presented as fact, not opinion. (Although incorrect facts, even when presented as “opinions,” are still incorrect facts.)
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I would also add that if we want MLC to be taken seriously, the way to go about that is not to consistently present misguided and misinformed information under the guise of “theories.” A theory is proven, a hypothesis is an educated and well researched guess that often leads to a theory. Even a valid hypothesis needs to have actual facts to back it up.
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I think in large part many people understood that Nah was speaking specifically about the handful of men on here who continue to express unevolved and often misinformed ideas about women in general.
I'm afraid that I'm not one of those many people who understood what nah was speaking about since there was no specificity included in her statement. In fact, when I re-read it I have to say that it sounds very general and not at all specific. It sounded to me like female MLC was being attributed to this:
At a certain point in a woman’s life, she may seek emancipation from a spouse that may have been emotionally chaining her through the means of ‘rescuer’, ‘protecting knight on a white horse’, ‘wife owner’, male chauvinism, or misogyny. Basically, she gets sick of being considered a second class citizen in her own marriage.
If this is true then female MLC doesn't exist and there is no reason for male LBSes to be on this site.
Maybe I'm just being overly sensitive. I was up late last night waiting for the coroner to show up so that I could help load a body into his van.
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Yes, MLC in women is caused by menopause. It's very clear: men-o-pause. It's when women take a pause from the men in their lives because they become o so repulsive.
This is not all joke but actually discussed rather often in books and media when the topic of middle aged women pops up.
At a certain point in a woman’s life, she may seek emancipation from a spouse that may have been emotionally chaining her through the means of ‘rescuer’, ‘protecting knight on a white horse’, ‘wife owner’, male chauvinism, or misogyny. Basically, she gets sick of being considered a second class citizen in her own marriage.
Just my 2 cents’.
No, it wasn't a joke at all. It was a reaction to having just read the opinions of several men on this thread about menopause. Everyone is free to have their own opinions, but the opinions expressed by some of the men on here about menopause and women's hormones make those men seem sleazy and unattractive and arrogant. I wonder if any of you men on here have considered whether YOUR ATTITUDES toward your wives' menopause (as opposed to the effects of the menopause itself) is one of the reasons they chose to leave?
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Why is it offensive? It’s offensive bc my opinion is it could possibly be choice? It doesn’t have to be choice but it COULD be. I don’t get offended when someone says it might be chemicals. I might not agree but I don’t get offended.
My ex fits every single MLC stereotype perfectly. I can’t tell you how many times in RL, people have said to me that he is going through a MLC. So, maybe there is some mysterious fog that has taken over his brain, I’m not counting that out. But, it’s also very possible that he started to feel bad about aging, started to flirt, the attention made him feel better and like a drug, the more he got, the more he wanted.
Why is that offensive? Bc it doesn’t fit with “they can’t help themselves”?
Added... gender doesn’t matter.
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If the men on this thread really truly want real answers, why be so closed minded to what the women on here are saying?
We are not reading about menopause, we are living it.
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I wonder if someone should start a thread titled, ‘Andropause - split from Menopause’.
The major difference between the two are TIME.
Although likely not a GIFT.
Men go through Andropause (in general) between 20 - 70 years old and it is normally a very gradual process. ( but not always)
Women's change is much more sudden in comparison.
And likely can happen anytime between ages 35-55 but lasts a much shorter time.
The only guarantee is that we all seem to go through this process.
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Actually, for a number of reasons, there are some women who actually look forward to and welcome menopause. It can be a very positive thing for some women and even their marital relationships so I think one can't assume it is a negative either on a woman or her relationships with others.
Anybody remember the Brady Bunch episode where Peter's voice changes? They turned that negative into a positive, so any life change can be spun positively if you have the right attitude.
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It’s offensive bc my opinion is it could possibly be choice? It doesn’t have to be choice but it COULD be.
I think you're back-pedaling now. I find nothing in your post that indicates that it's POSSIBLY a choice. Your post, as written, is attributing female MLC not to ""The Menopause" or "The Fog", or something else" but instead to "women of a certain age wanting to escape".
I don't disagree that there are a large number of "women of a certain age" who want to and perhaps eventually do choose to escape their marriages and I can understand in many cases why they might feel that way and I can sympathize with them.
But I believe it's insensitive and possibly offensive to make a statement like the one you made on a site where there are so many good men who are hurting and yet are standing for their marriages. I think there would be an uproar if a man on this site were to make a similar statement about male MLCers leaving not because of MLC but because they're seeking emancipation from a female spouse who may have been emasculating.
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Now I’m really confused.
You don’t find that it’s offensive that it could be choice but you find it offensive that some women might want to escape?
What’s the difference?
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Hi Brain, I see a lot of similarities with our quest for understanding. Did your research show up Amygdala dis regulation, it can alter behaviours and induce hyper sexuality in some people who’s hormones are above their normally set levels.
I think that may have been causal in my situation it’s the only thing that fits other than her being a bad girl all along and she wasn’t she was a Step ford wife prior but she never let on she was on the change to me, perhaps she didn’t know herself at the time.
Kind regards
Jack
Jack. Just curious.
If you somehow was handed the answer of why this all happened, what would you do with it and how would it change anything?
I would use it to help others untangle the skien Nah, I believe hormones exceeding the upper level of an individuals Amygdala could be causal to it going into disregulation and be a contributing component among other factors such as life stressors and Foo issues to some MLC cases but only in extreme hormonal shifts not all reach the upper set point. It’s well documented that it can change a persons perspective. Even if they saw something formally viewed as harmless in their environment they are now are seen as a threat.
It could be why the former spouse is seen as the now resented enemy, someone to escape from or fight. It could be a contributor in some normal affairs also, high threshold breaches can make an individual behave socially inappropriately. It would also help me in the process and I’m into the sciences academically so I enjoy researching as it distracts me from thoughts and feelings I would rather not have.
Kind regards
Jack
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Okay, that makes sense to me. Helping others is a great way to heal.
Do you feel you are suffering from PTSD and have you researched ways to ease the pain?
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Hi, yes I have had some good advice off many posters, when I can walk properly again and drive I will get some privately the events over the last 8 years have left a legacy I don’t want.
Kind regards
Jack
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My husband helped me a lot with breathing deeply and “be where your feet are”...
No walking or driving needed. :)
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If the men on this thread really truly want real answers, why be so closed minded to what the women on here are saying?
We are not reading about menopause, we are living it.
I'm not being close minded. I think close mindedness is what caused this thread to be split off in the first place. Jackolar was basically told he was wrong, and that there was no correlation.
This woman seems to think menopause is somewhat related, and so do the doctors in the article. http://www.oprah.com/sp/new-midlife-crisis.html
As I mentioned earlier, my W was perimenopausal in 2014 and things got progressively worse from there. She directly referenced it several times for her "crazy" behavior and she's still no where near the woman I met and married in her behavior, her attitude, or her desire to be with our 9 year old D.
Again, if this conversation is so triggering to some of you, isn't it best to just post somewhere else? I really don't understand the anger, or dismissive attitude, on this particular topic or the thoroughly demeaning tone toward some of the men here. It would be interesting to see what would happen on a thread about ED, or something else male related. I wonder if the men here would react the same way?
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Jackolar: I realize this may not be an option but I’ll put it out there anyway. There are more and more therapists who will work with clients over skype/FaceTime/video. Some PTSD therapies work best in person, but there are others that will work remotely. And considering how much they help it very well may be worth NOT waiting for when you are physically healed to start healing spiritually and psychically.
Only thing I will say about the discussion happening here: I don’t think we can equate the experience women have in their roles in society (and I am only limiting this to the US) as compared to men. I know we have varied backgrounds, religious beliefs, relationship beliefs. But as a general statement women are viewed more negatively if they are assertive in personal and professionals lives then men if the two genders behave EXACTLY the same and make the same choices. So there is a bias towards women having to be “nicer,” “less angry,” etc etc. So when we talk about roles in a long term marriage this factor may play a role. As we get older some of us become more comfortable with ourselves, and I can see that a spouse who has stayed in an uncomfortable relationship and has felt constrained may simply decides to change their lives.
This is in NO WAY the same as what many of us have experienced in MLC. That is simply called end of a non functioning relationship.
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But as a general statement women are viewed more negatively if they are assertive
🙋♀️
Assertive woman here, totally co-signing this statement
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Again, if this conversation is so triggering to some of you, isn't it best to just post somewhere else?
Menopausal women don't get "triggered." They aren't millennials.
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Again, if this conversation is so triggering to some of you, isn't it best to just post somewhere else?
Menopausal women don't get "triggered." They aren't millennials.
;D
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My husband helped me a lot with breathing deeply and “be where your feet are”...
No walking or driving needed. :)
Hi Nah, i haven't looked into anything yet but I did think of hypnotism. I live alone so I have no one to help in that respect I've spent 3 years in plater casts both legs for two years and only one for the last year. My bones have fused but my ankle has collapsed permanently and can't take weight for very long, but I do what I can. When I get back to driving I will get some. But I will read up on what you suggested.
Kind regards
Jack
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I would be curious if the fear of Menopause can help push a woman into MLC.
I know W is deathly afraid of Menopause. She has a complete histo and was gutted several years ago...... hormone replacement since then (and she's never missed a pill, not even in MLC.... it's that important to her).
Men don't and can't understand what it's like to face going into this, and we can't understand what it's like to go thru it. Women have so many moving parts, so complicated and intricate. So many powerful chemicals compared to us.
-SS
Standing, confusing as to why you think your wife has a major fear of menopause, since if she underwent a complete hysterectomy, she would have been thrown into immediate surgically induced menopause.
NYM's post hit the nail on the head - HRT allows them to not enter menopause. The docs told W that she would get a prescription until they thought it was time for her to go thru with it (between 45 and 50). There was one time when there was a problem with her prescription and it looked like it would not be filled and she was about to be on the road for a week. The doc on the phone said "well, go thru menopause... you will sooner or later anyway". W blew a gasket and went ballistic (rightfully). In the end, she got her prescription and then started hording pills (not sure how) so that if there was ever an emergency she would have a supply. At one point she was talking about having a year's supply in "reserve" as her goal.
So yes.... deathly afraid of menopause. This was in the pre-BD shadow phase but I don't think it was what lit the fuse, it was already burning. If her fuse hadn't been burning already, her reaction was such that I think it could have lit it.
-SS
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Jackolar: I realize this may not be an option but I’ll put it out there anyway. There are more and more therapists who will work with clients over skype/FaceTime/video. Some PTSD therapies work best in person, but there are others that will work remotely. And considering how much they help it very well may be worth NOT waiting for when you are physically healed to start healing spiritually and psychically.
Only thing I will say about the discussion happening here: I don’t think we can equate the experience women have in their roles in society (and I am only limiting this to the US) as compared to men. I know we have varied backgrounds, religious beliefs, relationship beliefs. But as a general statement women are viewed more negatively if they are assertive in personal and professionals lives then men if the two genders behave EXACTLY the same and make the same choices. So there is a bias towards women having to be “nicer,” “less angry,” etc etc. So when we talk about roles in a long term marriage this factor may play a role. As we get older some of us become more comfortable with ourselves, and I can see that a spouse who has stayed in an uncomfortable relationship and has felt constrained may simply decides to change their lives.
This is in NO WAY the same as what many of us have experienced in MLC. That is simply called end of a non functioning relationship.
That's a great idea online therapy I will look into the costs involved. I have considered she just got fed up but the OM she went for was her ex boyfriend who dumped her over 30 years before and within a few months he dumped her again for a younger Asian lady. She told me she loved me 3 weeks before bomb drop and I witnessed very unusual behaviours in her. We appeared very happy so the sudden change floored me.
She almost immediately poached OM 2 out of a 33 year marriage that's a super quick rebound in any bodies books.With all the single blokes about she split another family unit. People working with her told me I'm better off as she's having some form of identity crisis and this advice came from women not men, they told me to keep smiling.i don't smile so much these days unfortunately.
She was always dead set against this behaviour. Her parents who were upper middle class were mortified it gave her mother a sweet lady a stroke from all the anxiety caused and she never recovered her father died within 18 months and I liked my inlaws they lived 5 doors down. She must have pre-planned this how long for I really don't know. She blamed me by bullet pointed notes and she made no mention of an affair. I found out by luck a member of my family saw her out with him. And I started to dig and find more.
Kind regards
Jack
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I would be curious if the fear of Menopause can help push a woman into MLC.
I know W is deathly afraid of Menopause. She has a complete histo and was gutted several years ago...... hormone replacement since then (and she's never missed a pill, not even in MLC.... it's that important to her).
Men don't and can't understand what it's like to face going into this, and we can't understand what it's like to go thru it. Women have so many moving parts, so complicated and intricate. So many powerful chemicals compared to us.
-SS
Standing, confusing as to why you think your wife has a major fear of menopause, since if she underwent a complete hysterectomy, she would have been thrown into immediate surgically induced menopause.
NYM's post hit the nail on the head - HRT allows them to not enter menopause. The docs told W that she would get a prescription until they thought it was time for her to go thru with it (between 45 and 50). There was one time when there was a problem with her prescription and it looked like it would not be filled and she was about to be on the road for a week. The doc on the phone said "well, go thru menopause... you will sooner or later anyway". W blew a gasket and went ballistic (rightfully). In the end, she got her prescription and then started hording pills (not sure how) so that if there was ever an emergency she would have a supply. At one point she was talking about having a year's supply in "reserve" as her goal.
So yes.... deathly afraid of menopause. This was in the pre-BD shadow phase but I don't think it was what lit the fuse, it was already burning. If her fuse hadn't been burning already, her reaction was such that I think it could have lit it.
-SS
Thanks. I’m no expert, but have some friends who have had radical hysterectomies. My understanding from them was that HRT was given to them similar to the way that hormone therapy is given to women in natural menopause. Meaning that the HRT was not given to them to prevent menopause, but rather to manage the surgically induced menopause. Now, I don’t know because for myself, I went into chemically induced menopause from chemo treatment and cannot take any hormone therapy because of the cancer.
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Standing strong high cortisol levels can create a change in the brain state. Long term stress is a contributor among others.”Cortisol Can Trigger Stem Cells to Malfunction.
“The "stress hormone" cortisol is believed to create a domino effect that hardwires pathways between the hippocampus and amygdala in a way that might create a vicious cycle by creating a brain that becomes predisposed to be in a constant state of fight-or-flight.”
The same systems if in disregulation can alter individual perceptions of fears and behavioural responses to them. The common denominator that causes these changes are hormones.
Kind regards
Jack
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So I have to ask. If menopause is the "cause" oF MLC, why do men end up in MLC? Or does someone out there think there is no MLC for men since they never enter menopause?
MOO, trying to force all MLC into menopause makes zero sense. Can chemical changes, including hormonal changes be a contributor? Sure. Maybe even what kicks it off. But that is more likely to do with individual chemical compositions and personality than trying to write it off as any kind of "change of life" thing. OR ALL OF US WOULD DO IT.
This is like saying menopause causes chemical changes in the body. Chemical changes in Gerald are contributing to a mid life crisis. Geralds midlife crisis is caused by menopause.
Is someone trying to say there is no MLC for women, the ones that look like MLC is just an overactive case of menopause that the rest of us didn't get?
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And HRT does not stop anyone from entering menopause. It just helps alleviate the hot flushes/flashes, headaches, etc for those that get them. The meno pauses no matter what you take.
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I honestly don't know the 'answer'. Could it contribute to depression as Nerissa said? Sure, I can see that. Or a feeling about aging and lost years? Sure, I can see that too. But for me, it is no different than any of the other discussions here about all the potential 'causes' from FOO to neurochemistry to mental health issues to CPTSD et al that seem to play a part in an individual's 'perfect storm'.
If I knew the answer, how would that serve me?
If I had known the answer before BD, how would that have served me?
If my xh had known the risks or causes before BD, would it have made any difference?
If the psychiatrist he saw had known the answer, would it have made any difference?
On the whole, my experience suggests No to most of the above. Or idk. ShockSis and other MLCers seem to say consistently that they are rarely open to advice or suggestions from others, particularly the LBS. There are people here who have experienced a feeling of 'not being quite right', whether hormonally, emotionally or mentally as LBS. And they made choices about how to handle that which did not include the kind of behaviour our spouses engaged in bc probably the core of their character and coping skills are different. When I was struggling, I turned to walking, faith and EMDR treatment; my xh chose antidepressants, running off with an ow, getting rid of his old life/friends, despising me and divorce. I have no idea how that is working out for him as a treatment plan....tbh it was hard enough to trudge through my own lol.
I respect that most LBS, including me, go through an extended time period of trying to unpick the cause of what happened to us. We do it for different reasons at different times probably, and it is a natural human thing to do. I respect that for some LBS it becomes an unscratched itch that they choose to invest energy in sometimes for many years.
I would humbly suggest that, often, investing the same amount of energy in understanding the causes of our own distress and solutions for our own healing is more likely to produce a tangible return....but I accept that each LBS has the right to plot their own path regardless of others opinions about it. We do each other a real service here on HS sometimes when we see patterns in each other that are perhaps not healthy or healing, and call them out with love. Like a mirror being held up. But people may not like that, or agree, or have reached that point and they have the right to plot their own course anyway.
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And HRT does not stop anyone from entering menopause. It just helps alleviate the hot flushes/flashes, headaches, etc for those that get them. The meno pauses no matter what you take.
Correct and as someone who has been through menopause without any form of HRT (my GP and I discussed it at length and we agreed no) I can say that if I were to compare me and my H's MLC - yes there are many comparable symptoms - tiredness, anxiety, irrationality, depression, feelings of low self worth, inability to do what you used to be able to do, feeling that if only syndrome etc..... The difference is I choose to face those and deal with the effects of Menopause head on.
My MLCer H chooses to run away emotionally, mentally and for 3.5 yrs with OW physically - it is his choice.
We all have choices and we all have to live with the consequences of those choices.
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So I have to ask. If menopause is the "cause" oF MLC, why do men end up in MLC? Or does someone out there think there is no MLC for men since they never enter menopause?
MOO, trying to force all MLC into menopause makes zero sense. Can chemical changes, including hormonal changes be a contributor? Sure. Maybe even what kicks it off. But that is more likely to do with individual chemical compositions and personality than trying to write it off as any kind of "change of life" thing. OR ALL OF US WOULD DO IT.
This is like saying menopause causes chemical changes in the body. Chemical changes in Gerald are contributing to a mid life crisis. Geralds midlife crisis is caused by menopause.
Is someone trying to say there is no MLC for women, the ones that look like MLC is just an overactive case of menopause that the rest of us didn't get?
Hi Off road, some MLC not all,a possible contributing factor in some, im not sure MLC is the right word as the more I try to get my head into why it happens it seems more like an evolutionary process in both sexes driven by altered brain states possibly caused by the hormone cortisol and long term exposure to it. I’m sure you will agree in midlife and meno/Andropause there’s plenty of that circulating around.
There’s also other factors to try and understand like bomb drop and why many former loving spouses seemingly switch to their polar opposites and hate their spouses. I believe this is caused by fears and altered perception originating from the limbic system and hormones crossing biologically pre set levels that have kept them stable for decades.
Their perceptions change suddenly it’s like flipping a biological switch In an already altered brain state that could cause a domino effect while they settle into a new normal and maybe why people assume it’s a crisis when they have just evolved along a different path and no longer see their spouse as beneficial to them.
There’s obviously a lot more to consider like the fog Foo issues returns and reconciliation in some but not all cases. This is a change in their biology and thought processes and how they view their world its a re-evaluation of their life that is not under their control and fuelled by hormones.
My MLC thoughts relates to a female my former wife and my focus is on that, others may want to do the same with males it’s basically the same what drives it I believe is altered brain states and perceptions but there are some differences in the limbic systems.
If their perceptions return to normal they come back, if they don’t they likely won’t. And might explain why some return sooner, some much later, and some completely vanish for good as their brain state and perceptions of they former life’s value to them does not change.
Jack
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My mother lived with us for most of our marriage.
The day after BD, I went downstairs (still in shock) and told my mother that my husband told me he had a girlfriend and he moved out.
She gasped, held her heart with both hands, and then slowly nodded her head like she understood, “Nah, as we get older women go through menopause. But men? With men, something happens to their brains.”
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Well I've read more than once in last few days about women don't have MLC. It's just they are tired of their husbands. Maybe menopause. Hell I must be on wrong site . Either I was just a $h!tety husband or my wife was tired of me.
Nah
Your last statement that you mom said ??? Andro/meno may not be cause of anything. But I definetly think it screws with people's head. Now I agree 100% how they handle things is what matters.
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This thread has reached the posting limit. If it is continue, a new thread is needed please.
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Ok thanks
Jack