Midlife Crisis: Support for Left Behind Spouses
Archives => Archived Topics => Topic started by: stayed on August 08, 2012, 01:27:05 PM
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I found this very helpful, 100% my H, it explains much:
1. Real remorse means seeing the pain you caused someone, and reaching out to make it better. Feeling bad for the person in pain.
A person who feels guilt rather than remorse sees the pain of others (that they inflicted) as judgment, condemnation, and feels bad for themselves. What they feel for the person in pain is anger - anger for showing them what they don't want to see (the consequences of their actions).
2. Someone who feels remorse for doing a bad thing will always consider the thing they did to be bad.
Bad feelings associated with guilt are situational, and change with circumstances.
3. Someone really remorseful doesn't want to repeat a harmful action - they aren't even tempted to. Real remorse means never doing it again, self accountability.
Someone who feels guilty can still repeat the actions causing the guilt, precisely to escape the guilt. The only way to end feelings of guilt is self accountability - guilt happens when someone runs from it.
4. Remorse says "I'm sorry I hurt you".
Guilt says "stop making me feel bad for what I did".
5. Remorse cares more about the one wounded. They don't care about others holding them accountable because they already hold themselves accountable.
Guilt worries more about how the wounded one makes them appear in the eyes of others. They feel their self image is being attacked. They do worry about others holding them accountable because they shirk self accountability.
6. Remorse means learning from one's harmful actions.
Guilt means not even facing what one has done, so learning from it isn't likely.
7. Remorse means leaving the harmful actions one did in the past, but not forgetting them.
Guilt carries harmful actions around, keeping them ever present, by attempting to avoid dealing with them. They will always be ever present, a thorn in ones side, looming large and affecting one's life until faced and dealt with. This is self inflicted torture - although a person struggling with guilt will blame others.
8. Remorse leads to the ability to forgive the self.
Guilt leads to self hatred.
9. Remorse is action, actively doing something about the harm one caused.
Guilt is feeling self pity and doing nothing about the harm one caused.
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Stayed,
WOW. That is a powerful piece. Too bad many of us whose spouses are still in MLC cannot sent that as a truth dart.
Just curious, has your H read that? What was his reaction?
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Funny CforLife, I never even bothered to show it to him. I read it, and went WOW! I watched my h battle his way from guilt to remorse, fearing the whole way, that he would never make it. Although I did not have such a clearly stated difference between the two, I totally RECOGNIZED it when my h finally got there.
I found this posted by somebody who does not wish to have their name posted on the main forum. It was on TrustingMyHP's thread. I had never seen it laid out quite like that before. I wish it had been available when my h and I were reconciling.
I think it will be very helpful for those that are reconnecting/reconciling. Once you know what to look for, it is glaringly obvious whether they are truly remorseful or fooling you by appearing to feel guilty.
hugs Stayed
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Thanks, I printed that out for me. :)
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This is actually a great wake up call for me personally about the EA I had 13 years ago before we were married that my H brought up last year. I was very guilty about it, but I know now I was never properly remorseful. Something for me to work on, and hopefully us when the time is right.
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Interesting article - Funny thing is I received a text today from H telling me he was an idiot and he is getting tired of putting me through hell and he loves me. Only time will tell if that is remorse or guilt. He also asked for forgiveness (something he hasn't done until today). I don't know I am very leery about clinging boomerang activity though. It is something to look at though and use to evaluate somethings.
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Wow powerful!
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Really thinking about this one. It's terrible how much I stuck myself in the guilt stage out of fear and anger toward my H (when my affair was discovered). And it's also amazing how quickly my guilt went away and my ability to forgive myself kicked in once I finally saw that I had hurt my H. For some time I think I didn't believe he COULD be hurt. And when I understood that I had hurt him I moved out of defense into remorse.
Or so I certainly hope. Life is hard.
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Yes, yes, yes, stayed!!!
I've known this from the very early days after BD. People would ask me, "Do you think you'd ever take him back?"
I've known that IF I were to ever take him back, and that would be a BIG "IF," there would be a condition of remorse and restitution. Because I don't believe in forgiveness without both of those things.
I may move on and choose to not have anything to do with xH, I may decide that I don't really care that much for or about him, but I won't forgive him without remorse and restitution.
And I've always known that remorse would be able to tell me HOW he hurt me--describe the ways he'd hurt me. As in, "Gosh, you must have felt very alone/frightened/sad about what I did to you. I love you so much that I am sad I ever made YOU feel that way." It would not say, "I feel really bad, you must hate me, I'm a loser, please forgive me." There's a big difference.
After BD he'd say, "Well of course I can't imagine how you feel--I'm not you." Or, "You put way too much emphasis on fairness." The man has no capacity for empathy. Until such time as he feels and expresses genuine pain for what he did to me and to my children, and considers the specific ways he hurt me, then I will not trust him to actually LOVE me.
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And I've always known that remorse would be able to tell me HOW he hurt me--describe the ways he'd hurt me. As in, "Gosh, you must have felt very alone/frightened/sad about what I did to you. I love you so much that I am sad I ever made YOU feel that way." It would not say, "I feel really bad, you must hate me, I'm a loser, please forgive me." There's a big difference.
That is exactly how it was too. My h finally was saying things like, "it must have been terrible for you, how did you stand it, you must have felt so alone, I am so sorry Stayed, I can't believe I could do that to you".
Even when we were first reconciling, I could tell his REGRET/remorse/guilt was all about him... "you are never going to let this go, are you? I can't bare to go down that road Stayed, it makes me so bad about myself". All of his pity was for himself. Facing what he had done, made him feel badly about himself, and he felt ANGRY that I held his "TOES TO THE FIRE"... as I was not going to accept anything less then full ownership of his action/behaviour/comments/the works... any guilt would eventually become something to beat me up for later, hold against me, for making him LOOK BAD.
He did that all by himself. He didn't need any help from me. Instead, the "light" went on for him. I don't think it was ONE specific incident that brought about TRUE REMORSE... I don't think it is ever just one thing... but he got there.
I think that may be what the ones that are RECONNECTING now, are feeling is missing. Their spouses feel guilt, are becoming angry with their LBS'er for making them feel guilty, instead of moving towards SINCERE REMORSE.
hugs Stayed
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Hi Stayed
Thank you for putting this here for us all to read, very helpfull.
Also would just like to add I have recently been reading through your early posts and they have given me a lot of insight and help, I can now see things going back over several years, the intermittent cycling at the very beginning that at the time I wasnt even aware of, just thought h was getting a bit grumpy in his old age lol, boy did I ever not know what was on its way
Thanks again CrazyJ x
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20/20 HINDSIGHT Crazyjourney! Looking back I can't believe I MISSED it! As I have always said, "can we say DENIAL"? MLCer's are not the only ones who go a bit bat$h!tecrazy!
hugs Stayed
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Hi Stayed..i found something similar and thought i would share..it was amongst the many many quotes, books, research etc i have gathered over the 2 plus years..i think my H has had insights but not enough to really 'do' something about what he's done! As though keeping away and finding 'new' experiences is going to fix it for him - so doesn't care about me. I think when he sees me he continues to feel guilty and so "I" make him feel bad and he hasn't really got it yet (and i have on occassion pointed it out to him) the difference between guilt/regret and remorse. I found this on another site. from the Betrayer to Betrayed Spouse:
"When confronted by my BS on dday, I immediately felt regret. Regret for having been careless enough to get caught. Regret for the pain my BS was in, regret for the shame I felt. It was as if I was disconnected from my real feelings and was only able to feel things only in relation to how it affected me. Regret is being sorry for something you've done, but not necessarily taking action to make amends. One can feel sorry that their BS is hurting without doing a single thing to comfort them or help them recover. Regret is a feeling that is momentary and can be easily suppressed, especially if you are someone who compartmentalizes. Regret is passive.
Remorse, on the other hand, is active. Remorse comes when you, as the betrayer, feel compassion for your BS. It is when you are willing to do whatever it takes to help your partner heal. Remorse is selfless. Remorse asks, 'what more can I do to help you?' Your BS needs to see that you understand their pain. When you feel remorse, you realize that you'd do anything- literally anything- to take away your loved one's pain. In other words- you "get it." Remorse allows you to take responsibility for your bad choices and is necessary for recovery and reconciliation. Don't be passive in your healing. Regret is not enough. Take ACTION! "
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Remorse, on the other hand, is active. Remorse comes when you, as the betrayer, feel compassion for your BS. It is when you are willing to do whatever it takes to help your partner heal. Remorse is selfless. Remorse asks, 'what more can I do to help you?' Your BS needs to see that you understand their pain. When you feel remorse, you realize that you'd do anything- literally anything- to take away your loved one's pain. In other words- you "get it." Remorse allows you to take responsibility for your bad choices and is necessary for recovery and reconciliation. Don't be passive in your healing. Regret is not enough. Take ACTION! "
I love this Hey Jude! It is EXACTLY 100% correct. That is REMORSE. When we first reconciled, I couldn't put my finger on what was missing, but damn I knew something was. If only I had a description of REMORSE like this, some pain and suffering just might have been prevented. Mind you, who knows... nothing in this affliction happens until the MLCer is ready to embrace what they did and take 100% responsibility for it.
Until then, we shall just have to hold onto each other.
hugs Stayed....
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This makes so much sense. I have been divorced very long time. My ex said a couple of times that "he was sorry he hurt me", and although I heard some regret in his voice, I never felt/heard any true remorse. That is what has been missing and that is what I have wanted to actually see and hear.
Although we are friendly, I still would like to see some true remorse. I don't know why except maybe it would be some kind of validation of me.
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I can understand you wanting that dbpb! Some just can not own their actions. Cannot think beyond their own selfish needs. Some, just honestly don't feel true regret/remorse. How sad is that eh? :-\
Perhaps in time, your spouse will be able to do this one little thing for you. I hope so, you deserve at least that.
hugs Stayed
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Thanks Stayed. It definitely confirms for me that my H feels guilt but no real remorse. I guess that's just where his head is still at. It is still all about him. He really struggles to not deal with how I must feel. I guess at this stage he just can't. I wonder whether some personality types never get to the remorse stage.
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I wonder whether some personality types never get to the remorse stage.
I have no idea wondering! I really hope they are able to feel true remorse, can't think of any worse way to live out my life. To do something like this to a person/family/kids that truly loved me and feel no regret/remorse for having DESTROYED their faith in me, is just sad!
hugs Stayed
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Wondering:
I feel that remorse comes when they can feel and see the damage that they have done to us. In my personal situation when I was having a bad day I saw remorse all over my H. He hurts when I hurt and he hurts because he hurt me and he can't fix it. I think remorse comes when they are fully out of replay, through OW withdrawal and committing back to the relationship. It took time, but all I can say is you will know it when you see it, you will actually feel it. It isn't so much in the words (although they certainly count), it is more in the action (at least for me) when I am cycling. Not once has he asked me to get over it and move on (oh he would like me to for sure), he is always there to answer my questions, reassure me and apologize again if I need it. I know that my cycling hurts him because I am hurting (if that makes sense). For your H Wondering, he is still so wrapped up in himself. You are doing fantastic and your H is progressing at a good clip. Keep the faith girlie.
If your spouses were remorseful previous to their MLC, I really feel like they have the capacity and in time will feel remorse.
Hugs,
Sassy
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True Sassyone, when we first reconciled, he kept saying stuff like, "I'm not dwelling on this, like you, I am moving on. I just want to move on. You are never going to stop beating me up about this." etc. etc. Now, he never does. He doesn't take offense when I ask him something that you people ask me about... or if I get upset. Or if he is late getting home and I look at him closely... he gives me a hug and says, "I know what you are thinking... I know it our places were reversed, I'd always be needing your reassurance".
You will know it for sure... hugs Stayed
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I wonder whether some personality types never get to the remorse stage.
I have no idea wondering! I really hope they are able to feel true remorse, can't think of any worse way to live out my life. To do something like this to a person/family/kids that truly loved me and feel no regret/remorse for having DESTROYED their faith in me, is just sad!
My H can't get to remorse. He can't allow himself to make a mistake (perfectionist) and gets absolutely overwhelmed by any type of mistake. So he won't face the past, refuses to accept that he did wrong, and tells me I have to overcome my anger on my own. It would help me so much if he would just admit it, but he can't, he won't, so what can I do? He's been back for some time now.
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I've been reading this with great interest. So, now I want to share my thoughts. I haven't seen my exH in a year. We've had off and on contact via email and the last contact he made was just a few weeks ago. Nothing earth shattering.........just business stuff. Anyway, I saw a lot of guilt/shame early. I'm not sure exactly when/at what point my exH started telling me he was sorry.....profusely. He would cry and tell me how sorry he was for hurting me.......then he'd clam up and stop contact. This type of behavior rocked off and on for some time. After his suicide attempt and therapy, he stated that he had to stop apologizing for what he did. He said his therapist told him it wasn't healthy for him to continue this behavior. He said since I had forgiven him he just had to work on forgiving himself. This I understand. So, here I am getting close to the 3rd year (BD-Oct.09) of his MLC and nothing much is going on. My exH has also told me many times that he can not undo what's been done and that he will carry this to his grave. I'm not sure if I will ever see/witness true remorse. He may process his actions and let go...........move on without another notice to me. I don't know how you can hurt someone like this and not deal with it. So, have I seen all I'm going to get? I don't know. I find myself wondering how my exH can honestly move on to another relationship with this "secret" in the closet. I don't know if there is an OW now or not.
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I find myself wondering how my exH can honestly move on to another relationship with this "secret" in the closet.
If he has told his therapist then it's not a secret, he's told someone and got it off his chest. If he's apologised to you, then he's begun to face what he's done. In some ways whatever he's dealt with in therapy, which is a safe place for him, means he might not need to deal with everything again with you.
This might not help you very much to know whether he's faced remorse, or just guilt. Did it help you that he apologised?
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Yes, Mermaid. It really helped me but I had already given him my forgiveness. I told him that I forgave him the day we married............this was how I interpreted part of our vows..........I married him to love and honor him. I told him that forgiveness (for me) goes hand in hand with that. He seemed perplexed by it but I'm sure he has forgotten that conversation. I don't need him to actually show me any remorse. As I said, I have forgiven him. I know he struggles and suffers in his own world. He beats himself up more than I could. I just feel like my exH is of the personality type that he will chalk this one up as a mistake in his past and be done with me........us.........completely. I don't think he is of the type to return even though he knows I still love him. I know, I could be wrong because it is MLC............after all, I never expected this to happen either.
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You never know... if he knows you've left the door open, and you have forgiven him, perhaps he can forgive himself.
It may take time.
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I honestly can say that I have never seen any guilt, shame or remorse..absolutely nothing. :'(
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I concur with xyzcf. As many of us on the forum believe that our spouses turning their backs on God is a common theme (Conway), I think that those of us who have never seen any guilt, shame, or remorse from our MLCers just shows how deeply they have left their faith and their God and their core values.
Abandoning their family, violating a covenant vow, and pursuing that which God clearly hates - all the while showing no guilt or remorse for it - clearly reveals how deep in bondage to sin they truly are.
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My H has made the following comments:
"You made me feel hurt for your hurt"
"Don't leverage the children to put guilt on me" (in response when I sincerely update him on how they are doing)
"I wasn't unfaithful. We are 'estranged' . It is ok with God because it was love"
I have found out that his mother never apologises and pretends things didn't happen. I have experienced this from her myself which hurt me deeply at the time. I gues it may be a learned behaviour for H.
I found the post interesting and very clear on the difference between guilt and remorse. thanks for putting it on the forum.
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A very good article and one I will go back to im sure. My H is a long way from remorse and only seems to show the actions of guilt. It will be interesting to see what happens in the future as I dont think that I will truly ever forgive him, whether we reconcile or not until he feels complete remorse. I dont want to know anyuone who is quite 'happy' to put someone through that much pain, mlc or not.
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My H says the words but his actions don't show me much progress. He claims to be working on coming home but what gets me is that he is doing all these things without really paying attention to my needs. So yesterday and today I am not texting and pretty much have decided that for this next week it is re-focusing on my issues. Yeah he asked for forgiveness, told me he is tired of putting me through hell, told me I am here, he is there and he is such and idiot and he loves me - then went silent and cold in my opinion.
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Thank you, Thank you,! This helps so much.
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Well, mine has said “I’m sorry I hurt you” when I left, on BD and when OW1 was no more. He also said he knew he caused a lot of pain but there was nothing he could do since he needed to live his life and, anyway he “way suffocating” in the marriage. To me “I’m sorry I hurt you” does not equal remorse. It is just something said in order to try to gain my sympathy and let him be around. Actions will do it for me, not words.
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AnneJ,
Are you sure we are not married to the same man ;)! haha....my H pretty much said the same exact thing! He is sorry but this is what he has to do and he has to live his life...uh really? would he like to say that to our kids when they are older that he just HAD TO go and sleep with OW and live his life and leave them without a father? Ummmm...something doesn't sound quite right :o.
Oh MLC....those "sorry" mean nothing...."sorry I hurt you" mean nothing because they are always followed by a "but". It is "sorry I hurt you and I will not bring hurt to you again and I will make it up to you and SHOW you that I am sorry for hurting you"....as they said in Jerry McGuire instead of "show me the money"..."show me the sorry"!
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Well, mine has said “I’m sorry I hurt you” when I left, on BD and when OW1 was no more. He also said he knew he caused a lot of pain but there was nothing he could do since he needed to live his life and, anyway he “way suffocating” in the marriage. To me “I’m sorry I hurt you” does not equal remorse. It is just something said in order to try to gain my sympathy and let him be around. Actions will do it for me, not words.
You are so right - actions speak far louder than words.
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JAG, Maybe we share the same husband... ;) JoJo, yes, actions speak louder than words.
To be fare I think Stayed's "I'm sorry i hurt you" = remorse is for when they are already out of the tunnel and capable of really get the mess and hurt they've caused. Until then no amout of "I'm sorry" will do. And after, only "I'm sorry" will also not do.
Mine wanted to came and apologise after he broke with OW1. He would even come here and do it. I said no, I think it is better we don't meet. We will juts end up fighting. Also, he wanted to apologise, get a divorce that would only serve him and have me for his girlfriend. According to him, he wanted to apologise so everything was fine and we could date again. Right... ::) ::) ::)
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AnneJ,
Are you sure we are not married to the same man ;)! haha....my H pretty much said the same exact thing! He is sorry but this is what he has to do and he has to live his life...uh really? would he like to say that to our kids when they are older that he just HAD TO go and sleep with OW and live his life and leave them without a father? Ummmm...something doesn't sound quite right :o.
This is exactly what I'd like to say to H and what makes me so angry about the whole ridiculous way they handle their problems. No thoughts for the mess they leave behind.
Oh MLC....those "sorry" mean nothing...."sorry I hurt you" mean nothing because they are always followed by a "but". It is "sorry I hurt you and I will not bring hurt to you again and I will make it up to you and SHOW you that I am sorry for hurting you"....as they said in Jerry McGuire instead of "show me the money"..."show me the sorry"!
My H still and always has, followed his 'Sorry's with a ....but......
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Quite frankly, when I posted this guilt vs remorse, it was COMPLETELY for those that were reconnecting/reconciling. I assumed that everybody whose spouses were still in the tunnel (crisis), would of course be still yapping about GUILT... and totally incapable of REMORSE!
I don't think I have ever heard of one single MLCer that expressed, felt or showed TRUE REMORSE, while still in crisis, or even while beginning to come out, for that matter!!! I posted this for those whose spouses were beginning to make apologies. I thought it would help them to recognize sincerity, true remorse from guilt... hehehe... it APPEARS I was right... as almost everybody that has posted has talked about the total LACK OF SINCERE remorse from their MLCer!
When my h and I first reconnected/reconciled... he could not have been less sincere. His only concern was for himself and how bad it made him feel about himself, when we tried to discuss this. Like everybody else's spouse, all he wanted to do, was sweep this under the carpet. His favourite turn of phrase was, "I just want to move on, move forward, take back our life together. Why do YOU feel the need to keep on raking this up? Why can't you just let it go and enjoy our new life together?" It was all about him. He didn't like that person he was during his crisis, he didn't want to be reminded and he did not want to OWN it, any of it. After almost a year of denying he was having a midlife crisis, it was suddenly his new "mantra"... his excuse... his alibi!!! "I WAS IN CRISIS!!!" Seeing as he was in CRISIS, that meant he wasn't RESPONSIBLE for his behaviour. He married the wrong woman, if he thought I was going to let him away with that!
I believe that if I had not continued to "rake" this up, it would have only FESTERED! Killing whatever chance we had of recovering. Most diseases cannot be left "untreated"... this is no different.
hugs Stayed
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Yes, one thing we learned on the 'Divorce Care course on the 'Reconciliation week was that there could not be reconciliation without acknowledgement for what has happened and remorse. I can see from reading threads of those that are reconciling that it is very difficult to progress when the MLCer doesn't yet show remorse. These LBSer's are VERY strong, hanging in there.
My H hasn't showed real remorse throughout our marriage. Apologies always followed by "but...." or "you should know I don't mean what I say when I'm angry". There has ALWAYS been a justification from him for everything. Not only through MLC. Not sure if others have experienced this.
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Stillpraying, I found exactly the same thing. My h has always been "defensive", he still is. He just finds it so difficult to say, "I WAS WRONG"! He always twists it around and makes out, like it is ME who can't admit, I am wrong. I have finally learned to truly keep track of when I outright say... "you are right hubby, I was wrong". At least now, when he says, you don't do it, I can say, "oh yes, I do and name the times".
I found it was/is really important to keep track of things you say. I honestly believe that was part of our problem. Once the argument or disagreement was over, for me it was done. Even my grade 8 teacher used to laugh and say I was like a RAIN SHOWER... cloud over, pour rain and the sun bursts through just as quickly as it disappeared. I have always been like that. So, I never bothered to remember things my h or anybody say, or have said, or did.. or do to me. Once I have dealt with it, I simply let it go.
I don't do that any more. Now, I keep track, even if I have to write things down, which I do. I have a very bad memory especially about "bad stuff". Quite frankly, I don't want to be angry and bitter, so I simply let stuff go. Now, I write it down, forget about it, if needed I know where to pull out the saved information.
It's a disturbing part of their personality I think. Probably part of their upbringing, I know my h's parents... and NOBODY in that family admit they did it. In that family it is lie... till you die! Ugh, so frustrating... h really, really tries to own up, he absolutely knows lying is not allowed, but now it seems even more important to NEVER BACK down from statements that he makes. Uggggghhh :-[
hugs Stayed
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Stayed,
you bring up great points about remorse and guilt because only visible when they are coming out or completely out of the tunnel. As you said, my husband is "sorry" just as a word....not knowing the true meaning. However, I have a few questions for you, if you don't mind. Can you elaborate on when your husband finally turned to remorse? How did he make his way back into your life? Your home? I find there are touch and go's with H but he is still deep in the tunnel...problem is that neither of us have a permanent home as I am iving with my parents and he is closing up shop in the apt. we used to rent. He has verbalized that he is waiting for me to settle down in a new home and new country before he settles down (of course putting it on me). But I guess my question is in reference to the fact that what are the signs that your husband gave to you that he wanted to come back home and try? How long after BD was it for you? I am just curious how it looked...was it when his guilt changed to remorse?
I don't know if I made any sense...but if you can decipher what I am trying to say, you are a genius and I thank you in advance ;)
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YEP, my h still in the guilt phase. His whole life ;D ;D ;D Never,ever did an apology come without the BUT !!!!!! >:( >:( >:(
FH
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I totally get what Stayed is saying..... I have heard a lot of SINCERE "I'm sorry" talk.... it is sincere... but it has LITTLE to do with ME, and EVERYTHING to do with HIM.... he is SORRY that hurting me makes him feel so guilty, because he LOVES me and hates that he is hurting me.... BUT..... and then here comes the blame..... that is NOT reconciling!!! As I understand it, MLCers may want to come home, or be home for some time before they actually hit that rock bottom that shines the mirror into their face of what they have done....
I suspect that it is no different with the MLCer than it is with ANYONE as far as an apology goes..... except for the magnitude of the betrayal, a real apology has to do with NEVER wanting to go down that path again... recognizing the horror.... for all involved.
My husband has ALSO never been able to make an apology without a "but" attached... he is Catholic, and no offense... but I have seen this phenomenon attached to "Catholic Guilt"... who knows?? My husband used to have an annoying habit of, when I would apologize for some ERROR (not slight, not trespass.... but ERROR... "Oh, you know what, honey??? You're RIGHT!!! School DOES start on the first!!!" he would declare "It's okay... I FORGIVE YOU!!!" WTH???? BUT, this was LEARNED behavior from his FOO, so I can BLAME THEM!!! He parrots what he HEARD growing up!! MISTAKES WERE FORBIDDEN!!! MISTAKES were something you needed to be "forgiven" for... WTH????
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As I understand it, MLCers may want to come home, or be home for some time before they actually hit that rock bottom that shines the mirror into their face of what they have done....
From casual observation of other's stories :), it seems to take about a year from when the OW/OM is finally rejected and the MLCer coming home - to when it seems to start shifting from guilt to remorse.
Hats off to you all who are struggling through this time. It doesn't look like a walk in the park.
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Can you elaborate on when your husband finally turned to remorse? How did he make his way back into your life? Your home?). But I guess my question is in reference to the fact that what are the signs that your husband gave to you that he wanted to come back home and try? How long after BD was it for you? I am just curious how it looked...was it when his guilt changed to remorse?
JAG, the truth is my dear, THERE IS NO WAY OF KNOWING, when they are FINALLY sincere! My h said throughout his whole deception, that he loved me, he didn't know why he was doing this to the kids and I, begged me (them) to be patient, that he would work through this, in time! He kept pleading (can sound so sincere, but was in fact just a good ploy, which he knew appealed to my sincere "concern" for his well being... did I mention how MANIPULATIVE they are), PLEASE, give me more time... I will FIX THIS! That was my hub's big thing, I will FIX THIS!
Truthfully JAG, LettingGo, describes it the best! I totally get what Stayed is saying..... I have heard a lot of SINCERE "I'm sorry" talk.... it is sincere... but it has LITTLE to do with ME, and EVERYTHING to do with HIM.... he is SORRY that hurting me makes him feel so guilty, Bingo!!! he is sorry because it makes him feel so guilty... there is the REAL TRUTH!!! because he LOVES me and hates that he is hurting me.... BUT..... and then here comes the blame..... that is NOT reconciling!!! As I understand it, MLCers may want to come home, or be home for some time before they actually hit that rock bottom that shines the mirror into their face of what they have done....
I suspect that it is no different with the MLCer than it is with ANYONE as far as an apology goes..... except for the magnitude of the betrayal, a real apology has to do with NEVER wanting to go down that path again... recognizing the horror.... for all involved.
JAG giving you my timeline, wouldn't help you in any way whatsoever. Telling you when my HUSBAND finally showed TRUE REMORSE would also be pointless. Telling you how it looked, quite honestly, it didn't look much different then the other "I'm sorry", accept that they meet your eyes, look you squarely in the face and their attention is totally focused on you. I knew my h was sincere when he actually said to me, "God Stayed, how did you survive that." Even then, he slightly turned it back to himself because he added on, "I know, I could never have withstood what you did!" Without a doubt that is different, because he was honestly reflecting on what this must have been like and of course like anybody else, can only work through it by wondering how we would have reacted in the same situation.
My h made many "false" starts. Honestly, I didn't know if he was back for good or not. I simply took the chance and tried it out. This much I will tell you though JAG, it was a good 18 mos. before I saw TRUE, BLUE REMORSE! I swear his whole goal when we first reconciled was to wrap me around his baby finger, force me to get over this and even SHARE some of his shame! I know he was VERY confident that he could manipulate me. Quite frankly, I am surprised he didn't as well, because I had always BOWED to his superior knowledge, EVENTUALLY. I usually did some kicking and screaming but in the end would capitulate to his way of thinking.
That was one of my changes. Surprised him, oh yes. Surprised me... double oh yes! I had given him way too much POWER and CONTROL in our life. I share myself with him now, nobody controls me now! Nor do I control anybody either. Don't want to, just want to control my own life, leave him and everybody else to take care of their own.
Hugs Stayed...
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That's what I'm experiencing, my MLCer home way before he is able to feel much of anything. My H is desperately running from rock bottom and facing anything he has done. Truly hard to watch and live through. What kills me is the false progress you think you are making then to be crushed when they regress back to the way they were 6 months ago or more. It's so frustrating. I want to see some remorse, some rock bottom...hell I'll even take some guilt at this point... :P :P :P
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Naaaaaaaa Wondering, guilt is like false labour... it just doesn't go anywhere! The guilt only becomes anger and anger always ends up being directed towards whoever is closest and most tolerant... which mean you.
Kiddo... just back away, give your h all the rope he wants. Let him hang himself with it. You are still not directing this thing where it should be... which is YOU, my dear lady. All YOU!
Get healthy, happy, in spite of his miserable behaviour. There is nothing that bugs a person more then somebody actually appearing to be happy and content, when the whole objective is to crush and destroy you. I know that sounds a bit harsh... and the MLCer may not actually have that much chaos and destructing in mind, but that is what their behaviour is doing. Take that power away from him Wondering and find your own inner peace.
See what you think of the whole sordid mess then.
hugs Stayed..
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As always, so wise Stayed!!
Guilt is a negative emotion. MLCers don't want to feel anything negative. During his episode H was so angry toward me. Some nerve I had making him feel guilty by my sheer existence. During that time, he never said he was sorry, only anger at any hint of guilt. It was all about what was going to make him feel better, even if it crushed everyone around them. I think when i told him "I need to get control of this situation.." he responded in anger "now you know how I feel." Yes, i think he wanted be to suffer like he was "suffering."
Stayed is right, my smile and supposed tranquility (once I portrayed it to him) did confound him.
When he was cycling and wanting me to wait, and he was confused and all that stuff, he asked if he could ever be forgiven. I talked about how I viewed Forgiveness (if I did so it would be for my benefit and I was fully capable of forgiving him while still holding him accountable. Neither was mutually exclusive) and I said there was a difference between just feeling bad about what he'd done vs. whether he was truly remorseful. But at that time his brain wasn't working properly so i think he didn't really HEAR me then.
Later, when he came home, he felt guilty. He felt bad. He said I was too good for him. It was still all about him. He still had to show all his friends, OW, his coworkers, his family he was a good guy. He had to prove it to me. However, unlike Stayed's H, he did harp on it. He talked about it often -- what was I going thru? What was that?" Part of it is that he wanted to blame it all on the crisis, but he was realizing he needed to be accountable.
He wasn't until later he said crisis there was for sure; depression etc, but ultimately he was accountable for how he handled it. He hurt me; he hurt the kids; he misled OW; he hurt his parents; he hurt some friends...He started to measure the damage in real terms. In fact, he won't accept excuses either. Now it's not about showmanship; he really just wants to respect himself and he wants to earn respect from others. Or at least he's trying.
Lately there is little talk of that time anymore, but if something reminds me of it, he is quick to acknowledge that I'm entitled to feel it and speak and it and want assurances. Those times are fewer and farther between.
very interesting discussion Stayed. Luv it.
angelgirl
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Good to hear from you Angelgirl, long time, no hear... plus good stuff you are passing on. I found this Guilt vs Remorse on TrustingMyHP's thread. When I read it, my first thought was, "why isn't this one of the REQUIRED readings, that we are all expected to read, when we join this forum?"
The newbies need to understand the difference and the rest of us, need to be constantly reminded that our spouses are LIARS until they really truly come out of the tunnel/ the crisis and they use guilt like a weapon to beat us up with and a shield to protect themselves. Anybody who is trying to reconnect/reconcile with their spouse must remember this and do not believe a single word out of their mouths UNTIL they see SOLID, sincere, REMORSE! Until then, it is all air/noise pollution.
Thanks Angelgirl. Keep posting, lot's of needy LBSers here that need to know they will get through this, with or without their spouse. Plus, be a better person for it.
hugs Stayed
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Here goes, I have to post again and not be a spectator,
My timeline is that my wife starts emotional affair in February 2007 with what I know know to be a Narcissistic man who has Asperger syndrome. It is very sad but what can I do? It is his childhood problem which has destroyed my family.
Physical affair starts March 2009, I left for Switzerland January 2010. My daughters left home to be in Edinburgh, wife stays in Yorkshire.
In all the 32 years of Marriage (which was wonderful may I say, I thought she was my soul mate) and gave us two lovely daughters, there was no suggestion, although my wife was always a flirt and had many other 'interests' which were 'just friends'. I am a calm , tolerant guy, can you tell?
Now here we are on Wednesday 15th October 2012. My wife called me last week and wants to talk as the lawyers are taking all the money. Divorce was filed March 2012. We wait for the absolute but finances have to be resolved. At this rate the lawyers will have it all. Beware!!!
She wants to 'talk to me' as she wants 'feel safe' for just a couple of days. She wants to stop the lawyers. I think I am meant to believe that she has split with her boyfriend? She arrives in Zurich on Friday evening for 2 days of 'talks'.
So this gives you a time line, married July 1980 and now here we are half divorced. She will be back with her boyfriend by Christmas (I believe). I am past caring.
In all the years I have known my wife I have heard the word sorry 3 times.
Guilt or Remorse? Am I a sucker or just a nice guy who finally got wise?
We will see, but now I want this to end. The ones who have suffered the most are my daughters aged 23 and 26. We recover, we become stronger but they carry this into their lives.
If I were to reconcile with my wife now, no Guilt, no Remorse, my daughters would have no respect for me.
Think
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OUCH!!! Freddygone. Truthfully my good man, I don't think anybody gets true remorse until they are totally out of the tunnel. I can't imagine that your W has suddenly popped out this, unfortunately it just doesn't happen that way.
As for your daughters. I think Freddygone, you and the girls need a good POW WOW! It would be helpful to get their honest opinion about this situation. Then I think you need to explain, that you have known your wife for many years prior to their births. That a part of you will always love her. That it is quite impossible to envision not loving her.
I guess what I am saying, if you WANT one more chance to save your marriage and be with your wife, then you should tell your girls that. You seem to feel that without remorse your daughters will not be able to respect you. I am suggesting that if you were to honestly open up to your girls, explain about how unlikely sincere remorse will be here yet, but how much YOU would love to have your family WHOLE again, your girls might surprise you.
Does any of that make sense? The problem is Freddy, this is our marriages.. not our children's. WE know how much they have been through, we know how devastated they are, and we understand that they will carry this for the rest of their lives... BUT ... maybe you NEED just one more chance. If it works out, great... if it doesn't... at least in your heart, you know you did everything you could. That is how I would suggest you explain this to your girls... I would be very surprised if they did not totally understand where you are coming from.
Whatever you do Freddy, your girls are going to be in counseling for a long, long time to come. I know you don't want to hurt them anymore then they have been... but bottom line, YOU MUST DO, what you think is for the best!
Hugs Stayed
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Stayed,
I asked RCR about this and she is working on it but, I would love your opinion. My h ALWAYS says to me " I'm sorry you feel that way", what the hell is that suppose to mean? >:( >:( >:(
I'm suppose to be the one that says that, right? :o :o :o
Its like hes read the script. Its so condescending and frankly just makes me mad.
FH
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Stayed,
I asked RCR about this and she is working on it but, I would love your opinion. My h ALWAYS says to me " I'm sorry you feel that way", what the hell is that suppose to mean? >:( >:( >:(
I'm suppose to be the one that says that, right? :o :o :o
Its like hes read the script. Its so condescending and frankly just makes me mad.
FH
Finding Hope:
That is cocky, sarcasm! It's worse then no guilt and no remorse. He's mocking you! My h did that all the time, him being such a genius and all! His preferred line of attack and gash was, subtle slams that basically said, I don't give a "sweet tweet" what you think!
Nice eh! Don't worry about it Finding Hope.. he will EAT THOSE WORDS some day!
hugs Stayed
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Stayed,
Good, and I hope that he chokes on him as he's trying to get them down ::) ::) ::) ;D
FH
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my h wants to reconnect but as yet not one word of apology . now don't get me wrong I don't expect him begging forgiveness (how unnatractive that would be) but his ego is such that he thinks that I'll roll over on my back and have him tickle my tummy. as I have done in the past. http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/Smileys/default/shocked.gif
Until he takes responsibility for what he's done I am keeping him at arms length. I'm not sure I want reconcilitation at the moment. I feel nothing for him. not pity not love not gladness to have him around more (see my thread) .
For me I will need him to express taking responsibility for what he has done. It was not nothing when he said he didn't want to be emotionally involved with me anymore (and the rest). I fear I may be one of the LBS who has moved on. I don't know. and because I don't know I'm doing nothing.
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stayed is correct: there is no remorse, and sometimes not even guilt in the tunnel. It is a post-tunnel discussion. Within the insane part of the tunnel, my H didn't want to feel "bad" about anything. Feeling bad made him angrier. He felt bad that his actions made HIM feel bad; it was more of a reason to put me and the girls in a box and treat us as if we didn't have feelings. H flat out said "i didn't think about you. I didn't miss you. I didn't cross my mind that you'd be in pain."
That was his "truth" at the time.
Lighthouse: I'm not sure my H had true remorse when he was reconnecting. I allowed him back into my life because I felt that I saw what he couldn't see -- he was feeling guilty and somewhere in there, was an H that wanted to get through the steps to remorse. It's just my two cents, but you can reconnect during this time and still protect your heart, because you know that down the line he may eventually feel remorse. In my sitch, i felt he was better off at home while going through that journey. So even though part of me was kept at arm's length, we didn't welcome him home with open arms. H felt secure, safe and it's where he wanted to be while he recovered. But this was my situation, and you know your H best and what's best for you while you go through this. The whole MLC process takes TIME.
Bottom line is that remorse is way down the timeline of MLC...
angelgirl
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I allowed him back into my life because I felt that I saw what he couldn't see -- he was feeling guilty and somewhere in there, was an H that wanted to get through the steps to remorse. It's just my two cents, but you can reconnect during this time and still protect your heart, because you know that down the line he may eventually feel remorse.
angelgirl, thank you for this strength. I know this really embodies the commitment to stand. I will try to follow! It's hard because I want healthy boundaries. Hard to have healthy boundaries with an MLCer who feels no remorse for abandoning his wife and young child, and still let them in the door.
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Underpressure, first off, YOU have to be much healthier then you are at this moment before you even begin to WORRY about whether your h is showing true remorse, or guilt.
All of this begins with us. LBS who find "forums" like this one, are usually much, much healthier, content and confident of what they are looking for, if their MLCer's do return. We learn so much from this experience, and from each others honest testimonies of their trials and tribulations, about their journey.
WE need to be healthy enough to recognize what we are or are not seeing. This isn't about "grandstanding gestures" of blind faith and devotion, this is a willingness to look beyond what has been and a desire to restore something that once was, quite lovely. At the same time, at least from my own stand, I was also willing and prepared to WALK AWAY, if my h could not eventually feel and express, true remorse. Not the self pitying guilt that was so obvious, when we first reconciled. I can't speak on behalf of Angelgirl, but somehow, I think she would say the same thing.
Reconnecting/reconciling is not unconditional. We can continue to love them to the day we die, but recognize that we could not have lived with them, without seeing real remorse. At least, that is how I felt.
hugs Stayed
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thanks, stayed. Needed that.
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Stayed,
I asked RCR about this and she is working on it but, I would love your opinion. My h ALWAYS says to me " I'm sorry you feel that way", what the hell is that suppose to mean? >:( >:( >:(
I'm suppose to be the one that says that, right? :o :o :o
Its like hes read the script. Its so condescending and frankly just makes me mad.
FH
Yikes - I wonder if they think it is condescending of us when we say that to them.
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Of course they do! They also think, even if what we say is genuine, "it's too much, too late"! In their minds, they gave us EVERY possibility to "change". Of course, they were perfect and there was no need to touch such "perfection".
They also find our "kindness, meekness, gentleness" to be pathetic and nothing more then an attempt to "suck" them back in. Remember, they are on bat$h!tecrazy! They see us as the manipulators!
Lalalala... just more "singing in the rain". Hugs Stayed
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Of course they do! They also think, even if what we say is genuine, "it's too much, too late"! In their minds, they gave us EVERY possibility to "change". Of course, they were perfect and there was no need to touch such "perfection".
They also find our "kindness, meekness, gentleness" to be pathetic and nothing more then an attempt to "suck" them back in. Remember, they are on bat$hitcrazy! They see us as the manipulators!
Lalalala... just more "singing in the rain". Hugs Stayed
Oh this is so true!
When my H first 'lost it', I had no idea what was going on, and it was many months later before I found this website.
BUT I had already found that my yelling and arguing with my crazy H was just making things worse, and I naturally started doing what is advised here.
At MC my H said that he thought my sudden 'zipping it' was designed to MAKE HIM STAY!!!! (read MANIPULATION). I was horrified.
And when I found this website and started to say 'I'm sorry you feel that way' - he HATED it!!!
His lips used to curl in distaste!!
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Stayed again your wisdom is invaluable. what I have learned more than anything on my journey is the need for boundaries.
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And look out for yourself. There is no length too far to protect yourself, financially, emotionally and even physically. Nobody benefits if YOU go down! Somehow, we have to pick ourselves up, clean ourselves up and take back control of our personal well being.
When this first happened to me, I instantly looked to myself. Every single word of criticism my h made about me, I took as the holy grail. I believed every word he said. I had lost him because I took him for granted, I had not cherished him enough, had not looked after his "physical needs" enough... I had been a selfish, mean person and I DESERVED to lose him. I was really hard on myself.
Looking back, I have no regrets about that. I needed to beat up on myself, there was some truth in what he was saying. As part of our journey, the process, I think we need to look at ourselves and find ourselves "wanting". That being said, the beauty of the process is that eventually, as their antics become more nasty, cruel and self serving, we start to look a little further afield. Them! The marriage! Life, past, present ... future!
Many months later I concluded that although I definitely had not been the perfect wife, there was nothing on this planet that justified his behaviour. NOTHING! From that point on, I never really looked back, but I maintain that self condemnation and reflection was an essential tool. Enabled me to find balance, self awareness of strengths, as well as weaknesses and a new faith and belief in myself. My ability to heal, to rebuild and find happiness again.
It's quite the balancing act, to be completely honest. I became my own biggest critic but also, a fan. I have good traits and bad. I am human. Take me or leave me. That is good enough for me. That is all I want. It is up to our spouses to do the same. NOT OUR PROBLEM!!!
Hugs...Stayed
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They see us as the manipulators!
I've been getting quite a few comment from H about this lately when he starts going into monster. "You are manipulative and you always have been!!"
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That post is oh so true, I have followed that exact same path at first trying to be the best wife possible almost to the point of exhaustion and you know what he still left.
Yes I have looked at myself very critically and worked on a few things to be a better person but I would no longer run after h the way I was willing to before, he can whistle dixie as far as I am concerned, previously to mlc creeping in we had a lovely give and take relationship I can now see that he had started to do all the take and marriage doesnt work that way.
No idea what path we will end up on, the thoughts of ow still hurt me to the core even if she is a bandaid, but I have survived this thing so far, I have managed without him for 19 months now and if he wanted to come home tomorrow I am not really sure if I would let him, it sounds like another difficult journey, if mine returns I would like him back fully cooked please lol and if he isnt cooked to perfection I might send him back!
Well that is the tough me talking, but I also know that a weaker me still exists that wonders if I would just melt and welcome him back and what is strange is I really dont know.
Great post though stayed, imformative as usual thanks
CrazyJ x
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On a better note . . . Stayed of course is 110% correct, they will when they exit the tunnel and begin to further heal remember the kindness and strength we showed (i.e. the "manipulation"). Until then they think everything we say or do has an agenda. So don't worry about what they say and continue to focus on yourselves. Continue to be the lighthouse.
When my H was deep in the tunnel and I would say I am sorry that you feel that way and all the other validating statements he would onster so bad and tell me I read too much and stop trying to manipulate me by what you are reading. I would literally laugh at him (oh yes he remembers those times!).
Let them monster and continue to work on yourselves. This is the time where you can become who you have always wanted to be. I can promise you one thing . . . in the end, you will be a better and stronger person.
Hugs,
Sassy
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Sassyone,
Your post put a smile on my face because my H (who is still deep in replay) pulled a "stop using psychology talk" instead of saying "manipulation"....different words....same meaning...haha....Really....me telling him that he has to look within himself and see what he wants is psycho babble? ummm....don't think so....it is the truth!
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Was not sure where to post this, but I thought some of you may find this interesting.
I have been divorced, many,many yrs and ex still is living with OW he left marriage for. He and I have been through all the emotions associated with adultery, separation, divorce that so many of you are experiencing now. It has taken time but I guess I could describe our relationship at the present time as "casual friends with NO benefits".
Several yrs ago, we had to discuss one of our children and it happened to be on our anniversary date. While we were talking, we both realized what day it was and both of us felt kind of uncomfortable, and we ended up wishing each other a "Happy ex Anniversary." I remember being so upset/sad afterwards.
Each yr since then he has left a brief voicemail just saying he remembered what day it was--that is all he says.
Yesterday he left a voicemail, but went into more detail. He stated that 43 yrs ago at this time we were both so nervous getting ready to walk down the aisle. And that he remembers our driving to our honeymoon location. Wasn't ex pecting that and was kind of surprized he even mentioned it.
In my opinion, I think he has guilt, but has never been able to actually admit it or say I'm sorry. In the beginning of this, I was happy because I thought it meant more than it actually does--remembering that he is still with OW and the night before, they were at a big ski expo picking out their trip for next year. I say this because now, or at least this yr, it kind of irritated me. CAke EAter is the first thought that came to my mind when I heard the call.
What I'm saying to those who have read all this is and may have abandonment or rejection issues,, They don't forget us even if they don't come back!! I'm not gloating at all, but I would think the OW would be furious if she knew about the voicemail.
Just thought I would share this "dysfunctional moment".
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They don't forget us even if they don't come back!!
No they don’t forget us if they never come back nor will we ever forget them. My uncle end up leaving after years and years of having OW (it was not a MLC situation). He keep being around here every Christmas until my aunt got a partner. He does not call on the day they got married but, more than once, years after he had left, called on the day they start dating.
And with my uncle it is pretty obvious he has never forgot my aunt. Everytime he go around his house he always gives us something to bring to my aunt and he still sends her things every Christmas.
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That was a fascinating update dbpb! It also substantiates my belief that MOST MLCers eventually feel true remorse. I don't see this "exchange" you two have been having on your anniversary date all these years, as acts of GUILT, I actually see them as signs of true remorse. I will be "stunned" if you do not receive a full blown apology, sometime in the future.
The question remains, will it be during one of your "happy x-anniversary" exchanges, or will it be completely on its own. Whatever, I bet you get an apology in time.
Thanks for sharing this. This was the perfect place to do it.
hugs Stayed
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I've been reading I Don't Want to Talk About It by Terrence Real and reading an article from his website - here is an excerpt:
“The common name for appropriate shame,” I tell Peter, “is remorse. You can tell the difference. When someone moves out of shamelessness and grandiosity into toxic shame, they feel like big $h!tes. And in a funny way one form of self-preoccupation just replaces another. You know: ‘Don’t bother me; I’m too busy feeling like hell about what I just did to you.’ Real remorse doesn’t pull you in like toxic shame does. When you feel remorseful, your attention is on the people you hurt and their feelings. You’re moved to do whatever you can to make amends, to repair things. Can you feel the difference?”
Here's the article http://www.terryreal.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/The-Awful-Truth1.pdf
I know we've covered this a bit, but thought some folk might like the article/book/website reference..many here have referred to Terrence Real..he writes with lots of examples of situations he comes across as a therapist, which i appreciate.. :)
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Thanks, Hey Jude!
That's really good. I tried to finish that book, then picked up another one and another one... But it's a good book!
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Thanks Hey Jude.
I am trying to read the article while I'm on my lunch break at work. Sneaking in some more as I'm glued to it.
One of the major items H was leaving me about was stepping in when he was 'disciplining' the kids. It was so refreshing to read about this aspect and that it is OK as a mum to step in when you feel your child may be abused. Did I also get it wrong sometimes? Yes, SURE! but I like that Terrance states it's better to get it wrong and step in, than to not step in when I should have.
Sp
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Hey Jude
Thanks for posting that. I got that book out of the library with a large pile of other books (have no idea what I was thinking at the time). I read about a quarter of it, and then skimmed the rest.
It is an amazing book, and I think his work in recognising covert depression deserves him a medal. A man ahead of his time.
I think I'll need to get it out again and read it front to back this time.
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Thanks for posting that Hey Jude! That was incredible reading. I really must get and read all his books.
hugs Stayed
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Just read that article Jude - he's an amazing therapist.
Shame vs Grandiosity - think we are dealing with a whole heap of grandiosity in our MLCers.
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MY thoughts exactly Kikki. Funny I always thought of it as an over inflated sense of ENTITLEMENT! He sure put his finger on the crux of the problem though eh... when I messed up, I couldn't do enough to try and put it right. To reassure whomever I had offended that I didn't mean it and please, please let me make it up to you. Just name it.
My h NEVER did that, the most he would do would bring home flowers or do something nice for you, but he never acknowledged that he knew he had hurt your feelings. Saying sorry and being truly remorseful was something he did not do well. This has changed since The Crisis (TC), although, it still does not happen quickly. He will react, go away or simply refuse to discuss it, then later in the day, sometimes even the next day, express real remorse. Quite an improvement. Mind you, he will never "grovel" like I would/will!
My mother used to say things like, "you wouldn't have said it, even in anger, if you didn't mean". I grew up thinking this was a truth. It took me a long time to realize that that was not true. In fact, people say mean things ALL THE TIME, just because they are angry. In so many ways, punching or hitting with a stick would have been more humane then the horrible things that have come out of the mouths of loved ones. Of course, I have done the same.
I must confess, I would love to do a few sessions with this guy.. hehehe!
hugs, Stayed
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HeyJude,
Just wanted to thank you for posting the link to Terence Real's article, it was excellent. I continue to be amazed at how little I know about myself and H; it takes reading an annonymous case history for me to see our relationship in true colour.
Only hope his work gets more mainstream, what a revolution that would be!
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HeyJude, thanks for the excelebt article.
Kikki, yes, I think we're dealing with shame vs grandiosity.
Stayed, when I mess up I just let it go. We all mess up, we all blow once or twice. Having lots of siblings makes you not to give much importance to a little mess up or anger in the heat of the moment. I just walk way, let it all calm day. Next day is all over. Besides, people know when we messed up, we know when they have messed up (I'm not talking about MLC messing up, just regular messing up).
For a long time my husband would go for a walk, or leave on fire (when we were still dating and living with our parents) and return the next day when he had calmed down. Flowers were always as a gift, never has an apology. Was so used to my husband that I didn't even knew flowers were used as an apology. ::) ::) ::) Silly me. Mine was good aknoledge he had hurt my feelings. I'm the one who isn't good doing it.
We say a lot of things in anger we don't mean and wouldn't say otherwise.
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Why is it that the MLC'ers can't get to remorse as quickly, if ever when they decide to come back? I've had three different counselors tell me that in regular old affairs the H's are usually on their knees begging to come back and willing to do anything. Is it the whole dynamic of MLC? The depression? Do they feel more justified since we made them miserable and they didn't love us any more? Are they in general more out of touch emotionally then non MLC'ers?
And what if you're in R in the MLC'er doesn't get to remorse? Should the LBS'er question the validity of the R? Can R even happen without remorse?
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And what if you're in R in the MLC'er doesn't get to remorse? Should the LBS'er question the validity of the R? Can R even happen without remorse?
Question it? Oh my, yes! How could you not question it? Question everything about your life, your marriage, your partnership, yourself!
Personally, I don't think a relationship can exist! No regret! No true remorse! What is there to rebuild on? What does a couple really have? No remorse, no empathy! No empathy, no relationship! No remorse, no empathy, breeds resentment, anger, bitterness! Resentment, anger, bitterness, destroys love, prevents joy, pleasure and happiness from being a part of your life. Takes over your "SOUL".
What do you have without a soul? Misery!
Just my opinion, mind you!
hugs Stayed
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And what if you're in R in the MLC'er doesn't get to remorse? Should the LBS'er question the validity of the R? Can R even happen without remorse?
Question it? Oh my, yes! How could you not question it? Question everything about your life, your marriage, your partnership, yourself!
Personally, I don't think a relationship can exist! No regret! No true remorse! What is there to rebuild on? What does a couple really have? No remorse, no empathy! No empathy, no relationship! No remorse, no empathy, breeds resentment, anger, bitterness! Resentment, anger, bitterness, destroys love, prevents joy, pleasure and happiness from being a part of your life. Takes over your "SOUL".
What do you have without a soul? Misery!
Just my opinion, mind you!
hugs Stayed
I couldn't agree more.
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Stayed is 100% correct Gallagher. People get to remorse when they face and see everything and on their own timeline. It didn't happen overnight for my H and cetainly not when he first got home. Remember they are processing EVERYTHING and somethings slower than others. They process things individually. So your H is processing what his identity is, who he is, what HIS marriage is, etc. . . . This process is a solo journey at times and yes it is all about their overwhelming depression. MLC is the depression of all depression . . . they processess everything about themselves. Hugs, stay strong and listen to that smart pastor of yours. Remember God only gives you what you can handle, same with your H, so perhaps God is spoon feeding him right now until he gets stronger.
Hugs girlie,
Sassy
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Hi..thought i would continue here with the Terrence Real theme again as really enjoying his book "I don't want to talk about it" ..how i would love family therapy with this guy! As Kikki mentioned it is Father's Day here tomorrow, for the past two years i haven't really thought about acknowledging it to my H..to remind him he has been a great dad. He probably thinks he still is, so i don't really know what to say in the end.. I guess i felt so disappointed in his lack of action to turn around and face us, be remorseful to me and his sons. To look into his deep troubles/depression. To seek help. To look at his own relationship with his father. Maybe to understand what he has inherited and what he doesn't want to pass on. Once again, i am tempted to send to him, but i know...what's the point.
So this from Terrence Real
"Healing the Legacy"
Through the mechanism of carried shame and carried feellings, the unresolved pain of previous generations operates in families like emotional debt. We either face it or we leverage our children with it. When a man stands up to depression, the site of his battle may be inside his own head, but the struggle he wages has repercussions far beyond him. A man who transforms the internalized voice of contempt resists violence lying close to the heart of patriarchy itself. Such a man serves as a breakwall. The waves of pain that may have wreaked havoc across generations spill over to him and lose their virulent force - sparing his children. The "difficult repentance" such a man undertakes protects those who follow him. And his healing is a spiritual gift to those who came before. The reclaimed lost boy such a man discovers - the unearthed emotional, creative part of him - may not be merely the child of his own youth, but the lost child of his father's youth, or even of his father's father.
Each man is a bridge, spanning in his lifetime all of the images and traditions about masculinity inherited from past generations and bestowing - or inflicting - his own retelling of the tale on those who ensue. Unresolved depression often passes from father to son, despite the father's best intentions, like a toxic unacknowledged patrimony. Conversely, when a man transforms the internalized discourse of violence, he does more than relieve his own depression. He breaks the chain, interrupting the path of depression's transmission to the next generation. Recovery transforms legacies.
When a depressed man has trouble remembering why he should follow 'the dark path', take up the arduous work of recovery, I ask him about his relationship to his father. And then i ask about his own kids.
"Do the work," I often say to such a man. "Face this pain now, or pass it on to your children, just as it was passed on to you."
Virtually every depressed man I have worked with knows what I am speaking about.....like the great adventurers of old, they are willing to descend to the depths and encounter their monsters. They want to be better fathers than they had. they want the legacy of physical or psychological violence to stop.
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Hey Jude,
Your posts have inspired me to read more from and about Terence Real. I wish he was available globally for counselling!!
Thanks for posting again. For years I would listen to my brother talk about 'breaking the chains of generations' and to my shame I never understood his struggle. My brother was/is an alcoholic. We had long suspected that my Dad, now 88, was/is a functioning alcoholic. There was no physical violence in our family but despite being the only boy my brother had absolutely no relationship with my Dad and emotionally this was always very telling. I guess through ignorance my mother dealt with it by overcompensating and doting on her son which only served to drive my Dad further away.
My brother has a 10yr old boy of his own now and in many ways I see him work very hard at their relationship, he is attentive and encouraging but he can also be emotionally aloof (much like my Dad). I think my brother broke or weakened the chains a little, I will share the following with him to encourage him even further along.
The "difficult repentance" such a man undertakes protects those who follow him. And his healing is a spiritual gift to those who came before. The reclaimed lost boy such a man discovers - the unearthed emotional, creative part of him - may not be merely the child of his own youth, but the lost child of his father's youth, or even of his father's father.
Unfortunately, much as I would love to share this with my H, I don't think H will relate it to himself or the damage he is inflicting on our Ds. So I actively work with Ds in the hope that not only will they understand the FOO issues that might drive both their parents' behaviour at times but to also help them to start to heal from the damage H and I have inflicted. I genuinely would call this journey of mine a success story if my Ds manage to break one or two links in that chain for themselves and their future families.
X
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WN, my feelings exactly. I have stated over and over again that the rot stops here -- I will do everything I can to NOT pass on my own hurt and pain to my children, as it was passed on to me by my parents. I know that book talks about men, but in my case it seems to be me it speaks to.
I have talked to H about this, about how we need to not pass this kind of mess on; I know that in MLC there is little point, but do believe that on some level it does go in. The only frame of reference for that that I have is my own experience 30 years ago, when I was behaving badly and not listening to anyone -- people would tell me things like this and I would discount them, but in the end they DID go in.
The conversations I've had with my mother recently just confirmed to me how much was passed on to her by her own parents, and how she passed it on to us. My father does it as well.... and I just want it to STOP.
Ironically, until BD H always was a staunch believer in this, and constantly said that we'd never break up, we'd never have a broken family, and so on and so on.
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I love the initial post on guilt versus remorse. It helped me understand my W's actions since BD in July 2011.
I feel as if every time we have contact now, she has some feelings left for me but contact also reminds her of her guilt. This confirms for her that she does not love me, she denies having feelings for me and she thinks that she just feels guilt.
Lately, I have been as dim as possible with her. (She is with OW. We are lesbians) I feel like it is good for me to be dim due to my own anger right now and I am working on processing and releasing those feelings. But I also wonder if my absence will perhaps give her the opportunity, when/if she is ever ready, to not equate me with "causing" her guilt but to realize the guilt as her own.
Any thoughts or advice on that? Thank you!!!
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Hi Hummingbird
Welcome to the forum that no one wants to be a member of, but that we are all grateful to have found anyway.
Sorry you are also dealing with MLC.
Have you read RCR's articles?
This is a link to her series on contact levels. Hope it helps. Do you want to start your own thread and tell us more of your story?
http://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/standing-actions_contact-and-communication_contact-levels.html
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I love the initial post on guilt versus remorse. It helped me understand my W's actions since BD in July 2011.
I feel as if every time we have contact now, she has some feelings left for me but contact also reminds her of her guilt. This confirms for her that she does not love me, she denies having feelings for me and she thinks that she just feels guilt.
Lately, I have been as dim as possible with her. (She is with OW. We are lesbians) I feel like it is good for me to be dim due to my own anger right now and I am working on processing and releasing those feelings. But I also wonder if my absence will perhaps give her the opportunity, when/if she is ever ready, to not equate me with "causing" her guilt but to realize the guilt as her own.
Any thoughts or advice on that? Thank you!!!
HEY look who posted!
Glad you could join us here. :) :) :)
P.S. How about that Yankee game last night. ;D ;D ;D
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Hummingbird, delighted to see you posting. It has always amazed me how much guilt and shame is misunderstood. I guess we must think of it in the sense of being little children and how our parents could "guilt" us into doing the right thing. Seems to work really well with little people, probably because we are so dependent on our parents and we are afraid they will not LOVE us any more, if we do not make them proud. Guilt and shame, certainly doesn't have that same effect on "adults". Instead it actually increases their anger and resentment, which results in them spewing monster, indifference, cruelty whatever angst they are experiencing onto the people who have stood by them.
I am ever hopeful that MLC will be better understood someday. Humans always resist what they DO NOT UNDERSTAND! Especially something, that does not show up on an x-ray, a blood test, a urine sample... :( . I believe forums like RCR's Hero's, will change that. All kinds of things were kept in the closet when I was a child, retarded children, emotionally disturbed people, alcoholism, drug addiction, heck even MENOPAUSE was discussed only by "old women" when I was a girl. Now, all that is out in the open. Taboo topics are routinely discussed at the supper table and long overdue.
I am convinced MLC will become another topic that will be an accepted condition. With understanding, knowledge, awareness, families that were once left devastated will get assistance, perhaps even PROTECTION, as the unreliability and inconsistencies of an MLCer become more commonly understood. Hopefully, more LBS (let's be special, Bewildered renamed it) will quietly and calmly understand what their once "devoted" partner is going through and more willingly use the time to strengthen themselves, help their children to understand and grow from the experience, as they themselves will. Openly, honestly, assess their options and better able to choose the best course of action for themselves and their family. STANDING because they feel it is the right thing to do, not because they fear what their lives might or might not be like without their partner. Decide without fear of financial destruction and hopefully maintain a civil relationship with each other, whatever the outcome. Resulting in less damage, all round.
Understanding, that guilt and shame will not HELP bring your spouse to his / her senses. In fact, will probably send them running, faster and further away, casting hell and damnation on you, as they depart, is a huge step forward for the LBS's personal growth and eventual recovery.
hugs Stayed
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Stayed, I tend to agree that pointing out the shame and guilt that someone in 'crisis' SHOULD be feeling and SHOULD be reacting to will only serve to bring out the BEAST in the short term and sink them further into the mire over the long term. Most of them are operating at a level of denial, avoidance, and evasion that prevents them from even admitting that they left a light on in the house during the day, let alone admitting that they have shown nothing but depraved indifference to those that they should love the most.
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Sad but true statement! They simply cannot face that "part" of themselves. I can understand that, I hate the "idea" that my h could be that person!!!! No way of knowing if he could be again! Seems to me, we take all the risks and they somehow get all the benefits.
Well said Doc Hudson.
Hugs Stayed
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Stayed - that's a scary thought.
I know none of us have any guarantees, but has anyone heard of any MLCers who had such a splattering and public MLC as our spouses all have, who then came home - only to go on to have another MLC further down the track?
OMG - you really would shoot them that time wouldn't you.
My mother has asked me twice in the past couple of weeks - how could you ever trust him again if he wanted to come home. How do we ever trust anyone ever again I would say. Changes our perception about everything really.
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Stayed - that's a scary thought.
I know none of us have any guarantees, but has anyone heard of any MLCers who had such a splattering and public MLC as our spouses all have, who then came home - only to go on to have another MLC further down the track?
I would say it depends on the real underlying mental illness below the MLC.
My mother is bipolar and during her MLC it was much worse.
I do not think she is still MLC but her bipolar is still not cured, and she is 80 right now going through another round of bipolar.
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That's a very good point OP. So really, all of us are taking a bit of a gamble.
Do you mean that during your mother's MLC her bipolar was much worse?
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Do you mean that during your mother's MLC her bipolar was much worse?
YES - Absolutely, bipolar and replay craziness combined, and her divorce gave her lots of money that she blew through, travelled around the world and ended up with nothing.
Oh and there was never a real OM, just a fantasy one.
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That's a very good point OP. So really, all of us are taking a bit of a gamble.
If your H has lied, deceived and committed adultery, your H is an abuser. We can use euphemisms such as MLCer but we are talking about people who have crossed the line into abusive behaviour. If you let an abuser into your life or back into your life, then gambling is exactly what you are doing. Gambling with your mental and physical health and your wellbeing.
honour
EDIT: I accidentally modified honour's post instead of replying to it. I apologize.
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Do you mean that during your mother's MLC her bipolar was much worse?
YES - Absolutely, bipolar and replay craziness combined, and her divorce gave her lots of money that she blew through, travelled around the world and ended up with nothing.
Oh and there was never a real OM, just a fantasy one.
My Mother is not bipolar, but I believe she too had a MLC (not that we knew what it was at the time).
Sounds very much like your mother - blew through lots of money by travelling and also ended up with nothing.
She did have another man, but has been on her own for many years.
My Dad died 14 years ago, and often wonder whether they would have ever got back together or not.
Honour - while I understand what you are saying, and agree with you superficially - my H was none of those things before his crisis hit. He was a very good man for twenty odd years.
From my perspective, I would like to know whether people ever have a second bout of crisis that is as huge as this one?
If I met someone new, I would know nothing about their history, and in my opinion, that would be a larger gamble than being with a man that I knew to be a good person for so long, who went through some tumultuous years, and was through the other side and feeling remorse.
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At this point in time I don't think I ever want a man again.. Sad but true , I'm worried I have been damaged by this ..... and all I see around me are men in MLC and desperate middle aged women chasing them. I think I have lived in a bubble and see and hear things I never even knew existed . I think I'm going to become a hermit . I will never become one of those women... ever. And the thought of going thru this again just makes me ill.
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Stronger - I think that is absolutely part of the healing process. This all certainly opens our eyes to a sordid part of human nature - and it's not pretty.
Of course we are protecting ourselves from being hurt, and as we are 'working' on ourselves, we don't have the room for another relationship just yet.
Never say never. You don't need to worry about how you might feel in the future, because healing from this is a process for us too.
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hi stayed,
thank you so much for your response and for sharing your wisdom with me, you really present it all so well. i am fascinated by this discussion as it helps me understand how my W could have changed so drastically and not seem to see it at all.
is there anything the LBS does that helps the MLC reach remorse or is it all their journey? sometimes i see glimpses of my old W but then she seems to run right back into anger. she is with an OW too... do you think that changes the progression from guilt to remorse?
and she has a history of physical abuse and some neglect as a child and i wonder if that stops her from facing things... because she would need to face how she felt growing up and that would be scary.
thank you, stayed..
and hi, old pilot, glad to see you here dear friend!
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If your H has lied, deceived and committed adultery, your H is an abuser. We can use euphemisms such as MLCer but we are talking about people who have crossed the line into abusive behaviour. If you let an abuser into your life or back into your life, then gambling is exactly what you are doing. Gambling with your mental and physical health and your wellbeing.
That is completely unfair to the people out there who have had affairs and worked things out with their spouse, and never strayed again. I've been in a room with 20 other couples, listening to couples tell them from their own experience that you can make your marriage work, even in the face of adultery. And most of them do make it work.
Yes, there are abusive and selfish people who will cheat because they feel they deserve whatever they can get away with. But many people who have affairs do so because they haven't learned yet what it takes to make a relationship work. Maybe they came from screwed-up families who cheated on each other or got divorced and remarried multiple times. Maybe they bought into the lie that marriages are "happily ever after" or that their spouses will just magically meet all of their needs without being asked, and what that doesn't happen they put the blame on their partners.
And it's got to be hard to go to someone whom you have repeatedly lied to and cheated on, and ask for forgiveness. Most people wouldn't bother; they just chalk it up to "lessons learned."
Painting all cheaters with the same brush is disrespectful, both to the ones who want to make amends and to the people who choose to forgive them.
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That is completely unfair to the people out there who have had affairs committed adultery and worked things out with their spouse, and never strayed abused again.
They came to terms with the abuse.
I am all for forgiveness. But we must tread very, very carefully. We must be aware of what we are dealing with. Adultery (or cheating, if you want to use a softer term) is abuse whether it occurs at mid-life or any other time.
Painting all cheaters with the same brush is disrespectful
All cheating is abuse.
The "crisis" part is a theory. The adultery part is the fact.
The reader may be asking, "why does he keep using the word adultery? I don't like it. It makes me feel uncomfortable. Why can't he say MLC or crisis or affair or cheater?"
I use the word adultery intentionally because it is a horrible word. When my solicitor was filling out the divorce papers (for the record I didn't choose the divorce) and had to use the word adultery he said, "adultery is a horrible word." It made him cringe. I agree with him, it is a horrible word, it made me cringe too. He didn't write on the form, "grounds for divorce: MLC" or "grounds for divorce: depression" or "grounds for divorce: 47 years old and confused."
And it's got to be hard to go to someone whom you have repeatedly lied to and cheated on, and ask for forgiveness. Most people wouldn't bother
Is it because it is hard that they don't bother, or they don't bother because they do not feel guilt or remorse? Many of the accounts give the impression that these people have thrown off "the shackles" and are reinventing themselves. It could be liberation they feel and never guilt or remorse. We are told they come through stronger and more self-assured, well if that is the case and if they are then remorseful, they will find it less hard than we think to ask for forgiveness. But it would appear that many don't think they have done anything wrong or if they do think they have done something wrong, they believe the "wrong doing" was necessary to set themselves free.
Painting all cheaters with the same brush is disrespectful, both to the ones who want to make amends and to the people who choose to forgive them.
All cheating is abuse.
I have the utmost respect for the poor suffering souls who come here in shock, anguish and trauma with their lives turned upside down; I am one. But I have no respect for adulterers (cheaters if you prefer). I have compassion for these lost souls but not respect.
I have forgiven my W. She is a victim of her childhood but that does not mean I have to be a victim of it too.
Implying that people should respect their abuser runs the risk of setting the victim up for more of the same. Vulnerable people can come here and read some of what is written and conclude they must be bad people if they are not able to tolerate their abuser abusing them. That is dangerous. Take for example victims of domestic abuse who will often say that their H is abusing/being violent/cheating/verbally bullying because, "I don't love him enough" or "I don't love him the right way." They blame themselves when they should not.
Let's reserve our respect for the brave and courageous souls who come here hanging on to their sanity, remaining solid examples of good-living to their children, family and community whilst in the midst of the emotional carnage of the aftermath of the total and utter disrespect shown to them by people they trusted and cared for.
That does not mean we can not keep our compassion for the lost at the same time.
I know you mean well StillStanding, as do I, despite some of my posts perhaps sounding harsh. We are all trying to make sense of the seemingly senseless. It is tragic what has happened to our Ws and we would give anything to have them emotionally healthy; we would give anything to have them reach that place of wanting to seek forgiveness but it's not our Ws who come here seeking support, it's the Left Behind Spouse that does. Let's get the LBS back on their feet; let's get the LBS stronger and more assured. Let's get the LBS stronger and wiser and more capable than they ever could have imagined they could be before any of this began. With the LBS healed and strong, should the abuser feel remorse and seek forgiveness, then forgiveness can be given from a position of inner strength and security and not from the neediness of co-dependence; the forgiveness will be genuine and selfless.
Sincerely
honour
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The very reason that infidelity and divorce are so accepted in our communities is because we use words and terminology that try to soften the blow. Even Christians and the clergy that are supposed to be leading us down the narrow path are accepting of what God clearly says is unacceptable.
It IS adultery. Shout it from the rooftops and proclaim what is truth. People who commit adultery are adulterers or harlots according to the Bible. They are not affair partners. An affair is an 'event.' Adultery is a sin against God and against the very spouse that the adulterer promised to love and cherish. In old testament times, a man or woman guilty of ADULTERY would have been stoned to death. Today, many laugh it off, make an excuse for it, or claim that it isn't so bad because everyone is doing it.
Certainly adultery can be forgiven. But, our MLCers - many who are also adulterers - need to stop their adultery, repent of their adultery, and ask God and those who were hurt by their sin for forgiveness. Adulterers will not enter the kingdom of heaven. My prayer for all of our spouses is that they do repent of their sin of adultery. That is why I believe many of us continue to stand.
We all need to stop sugar coating the sin of adultery. Adultery is a horrible word. So is the abominable action it represents.
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Wow, Honour... JUDGE MUCH???? Adultery is UGLY... and it is a sin... it's hurtful, destructive, and ABUSIVE... even if you aren't aware of the secret adultery!!! Lucky for YOU that you are FREE of sin, and therefore, can cast the first stone.... Good luck with that!!!
I'm one that objects to the term "affair" as it sounds "romantic" and it's NOT... it's UGLY.... but LIFE has a way of teaching us lessons and humbling us... especially when we wield the stick of self righteousness.
Sorry, but I disagree with your assessment that MLC is a "theory".... you need a reality check. If you aren't convinced, then why are you here? Oh.... right.... you're probably a SKEPTIC.... thanks for nothing!! The world is full of skeptics on MLC... and it is also full of ACCEPTANCE of adultery... we "get" that.... but perhaps OUR spouses have fallen down the Rabbit Hole... if yours hasn't, and she is just a CHEATER, then I guess your judgement of character wasn't as good as you thought it was....
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Guilt comes from the mind and is the result of self-judgment and a desire to control, while remorse comes from the heart and leads to true change...............
and this.........
Guilt and remorse, two different ways of responding to the ego. Guilt establishes that sin is real, judges it, and then through its expectation that we be punished for what we have done, ensures that the future will be like the past. Thus is time made real as well as the individual self, along with the thought of separation that is their source. Remorse, on the other hand, sees the decision for the ego as simply a mistake to be corrected. By doing so, remorse over having hurt others as well as ourselves undoes the sin-laden past, releasing it to correction. Relationships are now about them, instead of us and our special needs. As an expression of forgiveness, therefore, remorse becomes the means of forgiving ourselves and returning home.
Found both these not sure where they were in my files but they both apply to MLCERS........xxxxxxxxxxxxx
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That is an excellent quote, WGH, just one bit that doesn't seem to make much sense:
thus is time made real as well as the individual self, along with the thought of separation that is their source.
It's one of those sentences where you understand the individual words, but when you read it you realise you have no idea how they fit together, much less how it applies to the topic being discussed....
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I just wrote this on AnneJ's thread; thought I'd put it up here as well.
A book that has helped me greatly during this process is David Burns' "Feeling Good". He talks about guilt in one part of it, not a whole chapter, but I think he's spot on.
The quote that encapsulates it is:
"Rather than facilitating your recognition of your error, guilt engages you in a coverup operation. You want to close your ears to any criticism. You can't bear to be in the wrong because if it feels so terrible."
What he means is that you keep on doing things to justify your actions, to cover up your guilt, rather than expressing remorse and having empathy for how your actions affected someone else, and making the necessary amends. That covering up only deepens the problem, and that is where many of our MLCers are.
He does emphasise the necessity of "developing a strategy for correcting the problem", along with "identifying that an error has occurred", i.e. admitting the transgression and making amends.
Now this book is a CBT book, so he mostly talks about letting go of unnecessary guilt (punishing yourself for not pouring the correct amount of milk in your tea, for example), but this very concise explanation rings true.
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Wow! I will definitely be referring back to this post when/if H ever comes around. Thanks for posting this Stayed!
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Just wanted to say that I had gotten a lot out of this topic at several points during my journey so far. But yesterday I was actually able to use it with my S13 who is struggling with Autism and Puberty and his parents separating all at the same time (WAY TOO MANY CHANGES for him!). He had a bad behavior and threw a classmates calculator against the wall (one of those expensive graphics ones...). After the fog cleared (yeah...it's kind of the same....) he didn't even realize it was a calculator he had thrown and felt really bad. Told the counselor that was talking with him about it that he was just a MONSTER (seriously...used that word....felt a little dejavu). I asked him why he felt like he was a monster...because he damaged property of a friend of his and hurt her feelings. I asked if he felt bad for it - yes, did he intend to do it - no, did he intend to do it again - no. Then it's not Monster (or guilt), it's remorse. Remorse = good and Monster = bad. I pulled up this post (he often needs to SEE the reseach I am telling him) and let him read the definitions. It made COMPLETE sense to him...he hugged and kissed me and thanked me. Wow.
So, thanks for the info...in more ways than just MLC, it helps!
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Jules,
I'm so glad that your S understood! I have special needs kids as well; I totally get it that it is absolutely wonderful when they understand something -- most people just don't have any way to 'get' that our kids DON'T 'get it' so much of the time.
I also am one who has been able to use so much of what I've learned here with my kids, and I see how it applies to special needs situations particularly. My S gets horribly angry often, and sometimes turns that anger on himself.... I need every ounce of everything I can get at those times.
But understanding guilt vs remorse -- wow!
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T&L I do remember you mentioning that you had special needs kids. I thank you for your perspective and understanding. That's what I was struggling with so much the other day. Absolutely physically and mentally exhausted from working through the situation at school, on top of already being emotionally exhausted with this MLC bull. Then, all I got from H was - well, he's growing up and going through some changes. And he's got this one other issue of autism to contend with. Like it was a mole on his face!
No, he's got ANOTHER set of BIG changes being thrown at him...changing houses every two to three days and his parents are separated....and his dad is being incredibly selfish!!
All of that did push me to realize exactly what others have suggested....I just need to worry about myself and do what I know is right and not think that H is going to "get" it. He's in crisis. How can he?
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The very reason that infidelity and divorce are so accepted in our communities is because we use words and terminology that try to soften the blow. Even Christians and the clergy that are supposed to be leading us down the narrow path are accepting of what God clearly says is unacceptable.
It IS adultery. Shout it from the rooftops and proclaim what is truth. People who commit adultery are adulterers or harlots according to the Bible. They are not affair partners. An affair is an 'event.' Adultery is a sin against God and against the very spouse that the adulterer promised to love and cherish. In old testament times, a man or woman guilty of ADULTERY would have been stoned to death. Today, many laugh it off, make an excuse for it, or claim that it isn't so bad because everyone is doing it.
Certainly adultery can be forgiven. But, our MLCers - many who are also adulterers - need to stop their adultery, repent of their adultery, and ask God and those who were hurt by their sin for forgiveness. Adulterers will not enter the kingdom of heaven. My prayer for all of our spouses is that they do repent of their sin of adultery. That is why I believe many of us continue to stand.
We all need to stop sugar coating the sin of adultery. Adultery is a horrible word. So is the abominable action it represents.
I don't think people laugh it off, but rather they forgive and work towards building trust into their relationship part of that is coming to understand a little bit about why their spouse committed the sin in the first place. I agree god doesn't like the sin of adultery but also it is a sin to not forgive too and there are no levels of sin in God's eye - sin is sin period and we are all forgiven by the lord when asked regardless of the so called "level" of sin according to man. Now there are different punishments by man for certain sin like murder to be sure but they are men's laws not Gods.
Matthew 6:14,15 "For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.
Mark 11:25 And when you stand praying, if you hold anything against anyone, forgive him, so that your Father in heaven may forgive you your sins."
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JoJo - completely agree with post. I also agree with forgiveness. But, if you don't yet WANT to be forgiven...you can't be. And why wouldn't you WANT to be forgiven....because then you'd have to admit you are wrong. That's where my MLCer is...DENIAL. He has tried to justify to me on several occasions how this affair isn't wrong. Amazing. I know the truth....
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JoJo - completely agree with post. I also agree with forgiveness. But, if you don't yet WANT to be forgiven...you can't be. And why wouldn't you WANT to be forgiven....because then you'd have to admit you are wrong. That's where my MLCer is...DENIAL. He has tried to justify to me on several occasions how this affair isn't wrong. Amazing. I know the truth....
Forgiveness by us to whomever isn't about the person creating the sin. it is about us understanding we cannot control their behavior, releasing us from being tied to their action and releasing us from the anger that will eat at us. It is to release us from the resentment and bitterness. I don't need my H to admit he was wrong he already knows that else why would he have guilt and shame? What I did need is to forgive so I could move forward in my life, it doesn't mean I agree with his behavior by any means, wrong is wrong. Besides it really doesn't matter in the long run because his salvation isn't going to come from me forgiving him, it has to come from a higher power and himself. He won't grow until he asks for forgiveness from God and himself as well. I have forgiveness because I needed to heal, I need to progress and I need to let go of the pain, anger and bitterness. It isn't a free ticket and it doesn't say you were right to do it, it simply says that I am no longer affected by your behavior and can move forward.
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That's where my MLCer is...DENIAL. He has tried to justify to me on several occasions how this affair isn't wrong. Amazing. I know the truth....
I think he knows the affair was wrong why else would he be trying to justify his behavior. You do know the truth, he knows the truth and God knows the truth. He isn't in denial he is trying to make himself feel better and wants you to acknowledge that it really was okay. I would simply tell him to keep telling himself that one day he might even sound like he believes it and then he wouldn't try so hard to justify it.
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Thanks JoJo...you are right...he is wanting me to say it's okay...because I was always his cheerleader and supporter in everything (because when he was Sweetheart he didn't do immoral things!). Thank you!
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Thanks JoJo...you are right...he is wanting me to say it's okay...because I was always his cheerleader and supporter in everything (because when he was Sweetheart he didn't do immoral things!). Thank you!
Anytime its always easier to see the situation when it isn't our situation. Mine just sits there and doesn't say anything other than if you knew the things I have done you wouldn't want to be with me. Sort of scary considering the high level of crack ho he is with.
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Wow, Honour... JUDGE MUCH???? .
LG, on reflection my post is too judgemental. Thank you for the truth dart.
honour
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Forgiveness by us to whomever isn't about the person creating the sin. it is about us understanding we cannot control their behavior, releasing us from being tied to their action and releasing us from the anger that will eat at us. It is to release us from the resentment and bitterness. I don't need my H to admit he was wrong he already knows that else why would he have guilt and shame? What I did need is to forgive so I could move forward in my life, it doesn't mean I agree with his behavior by any means, wrong is wrong. Besides it really doesn't matter in the long run because his salvation isn't going to come from me forgiving him, it has to come from a higher power and himself. He won't grow until he asks for forgiveness from God and himself as well. I have forgiveness because I needed to heal, I need to progress and I need to let go of the pain, anger and bitterness. It isn't a free ticket and it doesn't say you were right to do it, it simply says that I am no longer affected by your behavior and can move forward.
Thank you FJJ,
That is a very clear way of explaining forgiveness and is very helpful to me.
Thanks,
SP
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Funny actually spelling it out even if I did repeat a few times helped me to be more clear about why I forgive him....lol
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Is there really any merit in showing this to the MLCer. One that is out of replay ?
SD
x
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Is there really any merit in showing this to the MLCer. One that is out of replay ?
SD
x
First of all - how do you know they are out of REPLAY?
I would suggest that showing it to them before the crisis is over, that means complete reconciliation is
controlling and NOT what you should do.
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Hi OP
Ow appears to be gone. No replay behaviours surfacing from what I can see. He is expressing that he is aware of the damage and its his fault. Major depression kicked in. What else should I look for to say out of replay?
Sd
X
Edit - will answer on your thread - OldPilot
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=2977.msg186257#msg186257
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I wish I could be sure that my H felt remorse.
He is a very deep person and has lied in the past. He was also in an affair with OW for six years. He says he is sorry etc. and I believe he feels guilty but whether he feels remorse is another thing. I don't believe I will ever know the answer to that question.
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Might I ask, then how are you ABLE to remain with him? I simply could not have stayed with my h if I had never seen TRUE REMORSE. I simply would have been unable to FORGIVE HIM. I don't care how "deep" he is, or private, he B E T R A Y E D you. This isn't just about sex, heck, I honestly wouldn't have given a tinker if he had simply been having it off, with the dumb bunny. It was the lying, sneaking, disrespect, withdrawal of love, support, appreciation, LOYALTY. That was the REAL issue.
My h's defection taught me that I could live ALONE. That I was not dependent on him for anything. I learned that if he could not be a totally loving, devoted h who was capable of dropping his pride for my benefit to REASSURE me, that he was aware of how badly he had screwed up, then I would/could live without him. He taught me that. He taught me that LOVE is not ENOUGH! Marriage is much, much more then LOVE.
I expect if one does not make it very clear about what they MUST have in order to rebuild a life with MLC returner, then one will not get it.
Hugs Stayed
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Hi Stayed
I suppose because deep down I love him very much. I tell myself that if it happens again then I will have to end it. I hope that I will have the strength to follow through and do just that.
I am soused to living with him and feel so attached to him. I have known him nearly all my adult life. Tat is why it hurt so much when he did what he did. I almost had a breakdown. For the first time I really did come very close to ending up going nuts and ending up being committed. When I look back I find that rather worrying. When I look back at how I behaved.
I suppose we are all different in how we cope. I think most people in my shoes would have filed for divorce. Part of me almosts feels ashamed at myself for not doing so.
When you think that for six years he was having an affair then you get some idea of the deceit involved on his part. That is why I know that I will never really know him. During that time we were actually getting on really well and he treated me well. It was only the last year that he stopped wanting to sleep with me. I don't know what that tells you. I would say that he had become more close to her but according to him the last two years he wanted to end it but was afraid of her telling me because she is a bunny boiler.
Part of me thinks that he must have some kind of personality disorder to be capable of such deceit. That is why I say I will never know for sure what he is thinking. He tells me he loves me And is sorry and feels guilty but I cannot say I believe him 100% because of the extent of his deceit.
hugs to you too Stayed.
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Howmanytimes, I am going to post your entire posting and respond within it, in blue. I am concerned that you might not have been doing your homework. As many of the comments you have stated, you will not have done so, if you had read the ARTICLES. We are here to SUPPORT you my dear, not criticize you. We will not judge you and hopefully we will be able to help you understand that nobody else, friends, family or children should judge you either.
Here we go!
Hi Stayed/Hi Howmanytimes
I suppose because deep down I love him very much. I tell myself that if it happens again then I will have to end it. I hope that I will have the strength to follow through and do just that.
We all love our spouses.
I am soused to living with him and feel so attached to him. I have known him nearly all my adult life. Tat is why it hurt so much when he did what he did. I almost had a breakdown. For the first time I really did come very close to ending up going nuts and ending up being committed. When I look back I find that rather worrying. When I look back at how I behaved.
From what I have read about your situation, you became aware of a huge character change in your h 7 years ago. It seems he began meeting with "prostitutes" or some such. MLC brings about HUGE changes in a person. It begins slowly, gradually increasing in intensity and frequency with inappropriate behaviour, moodiness, anger, awareness of physical health, change in style (cloths, hair), often take up new taste in music, movies. Sexual behaviour often changes as well. Increased interest in pornography, more adventurous sexual activities etc. Severe mood swings, happy, sad, carefree, morose, angry... etc. sometimes, all in one day. Life become pretty uncomfortable and you find yourself walking on eggshells. Generally, at some point an Other Person is discovered, not always mind you, but more often then not.
I suppose we are all different in how we cope. I think most people in my shoes would have filed for divorce. Part of me almosts feels ashamed at myself for not doing so.
My dear lady, you have joined a forum of over 900 people (men and women) who have been treated just as disrespectfully as you, and NONE of us have FILED for DIVORCE. I would go so far as to say, most where divorce has been filed, was done so by our/their MLCer. This is a forum, that truly wishes to SALVAGE marriages. No need to feel any shame about not having done so... NOT HERE! We totally get why you didn't/haven't!
When you think that for six years he was having an affair then you get some idea of the deceit involved on his part. That is why I know that I will never really know him. During that time we were actually getting on really well and he treated me well. It was only the last year that he stopped wanting to sleep with me. I don't know what that tells you. I would say that he had become more close to her but according to him the last two years he wanted to end it but was afraid of her telling me because she is a bunny boiler.
You knew something wasn't right. You may never have believed your h was capable of deceiving for 6 years, but it happens. My h was in crisis a long time before he had his affair. I did not wish to believe that my h was cheating on me either. That is normal. When I look back, can we say DENIAL much??? I am embarrassed to admit, cheating on me, just never once occurred to me. I think I simply did not want to believe my h was capable of that.
Part of me thinks that he must have some kind of personality disorder to be capable of such deceit. That is why I say I will never know for sure what he is thinking. He tells me he loves me And is sorry and feels guilty but I cannot say I believe him 100% because of the extent of his deceit.
Duh... ;) yes, your h does have a personality disorder, it is called MID LIFE CRISIS. Do the reading my dear girl. Your h has all the traits. Of course he lies and much, much worse.
As for remorse, my dear lady, until he is completely out of his crisis and totally recommitted to you, he is not going to be trustworthy. You will not be able to believe a single word out of his mouth, and I don't think you will really want to know what he is thinking. It is just too crazy to comprehend.
Do the reading Howmanytimes. Educate yourself. You will be amazed at the RELIEF it will provide. Understanding is half the battle. It will not solve your problem but at least any decisions you make once you have educated yourself, will be made from KNOWLEDGE not knee jerk reaction.
hugs Stayed
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I noticed a change in my H over 7 years ago . i put it down to him losing his mother, father and brother all within 2 years .
He works away from home Monday to Friday and i only saw him at the weekends ,even then he started to go out by himself to the football and drinking with his new friends . I was definitely in denial that something was far wrong with him and our marriage . We had always been together , I think at that time i was a real mess emotionally and i allowed him to distance himself from me
Then in Aug 2009 i discovered the secret phone . He had been having an affair with a woman that he had met through his new friends . He dumped the OW almost immediately , was really sorry , bought me flowers every week , answered all questions about his adultery and we limped along for the next 3 years (remember i only saw him at the weekends ) I always thought that something was quite not right but couldn't put my finger on it.
Then in August 2012 i could feel a change in him again . He got out of bed one morming , told me that it was inevitable that we were going to split up and that every time he saw me he felt guilty , hated himself, was a loser ,wasn't in love with me and that he thought that he would be better of by himself. i asked him if there was an OW . He denied this also in front of our grown up children .
I thought that he was depressed and started researching discovered he is MLC
He is still at home and i try to detach from him as much as possible . I dont know what stage he is at . He sits and watchs TV most of the day when he is here, goes out with his friend every now and then . The reason that i posted is thati can see that its still all about him 7 years on . When i read the guilt vs remorse, i recognise that he feels guilt and shame.but i haven't seen or felt any remorse from him.
He is still angry with me , doesnt contact me at all during the week.
I wish that i had found this site 3 years ago, i would have dealt with him and her differently .
What i find hard to understand is why did he not tell me all of this 3 years ago when he was with OW.
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This was such an eye opener. For my H it is all about him. Before I had confirmation about the OW I would get upset and sometimes cry when he would constantly go out. He would get very angry at that. Now I know it was because it stirred up feelings of guilt inside of him. He has not yet reached remorse yet and I am not sure if he ever will. I've lost almost 40 lbs since the affair began. At first it was because he was spending all his money on her and not leaving me with any to buy food, after it was an inability to eat or keep food down once I found out about her. He is constantly telling me now to eat and gain weight. After reading this I realize it isn't because he cares about me and my health, but is worried about how others are perceiving him because of it.
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Sorry to hear that Guanacowife. I hope you are eating better now. I developed severe kidney problems and was told it was caused by sudden and severe, weight loss. We have to look after ourselves, as nobody else is going to do it for us. A healthy person deals much better with whatever comes their way. You are going to need your wits about you dear.
Hugs Stayed
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THis is interesting, it is about contrition and regret (I hope it's ok to post the link? )
http://www.manipulative-people.com/contrition-behavior-and-therapy/
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Most definitely it is OK... hugs Stayed
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Being a lighthouse, here is what SCREAMED out at me, when I read this article...
I also can’t count the times that those affected by another’s misdeeds were so swayed by the wrongdoer’s display of tears or a claim of regret that they unfortunately helped “enable” that person to avoid real change.
This is the one thing that really concerns me. I see some very, very kind, compassionate people, giving their spouses the benefit of the doubt over and over again. Many dislike seeing ANYBODY appear to be hurting from the consequences of their actions, that they let off the hook way to soon and easily. As this article says, true contrition, which seems to be a level above REMORSE (which is all I thought I was aiming for, but after reading this, I confess, I was looking for TRUE CHANGE, with sincere, honest, heartfelt remorse), is a willingness to change and do whatever it takes to succeed.
More of us should be looking for that, rather then feeling all sad and sorry for the state our MLCer's have managed to get themselves into. We seem to forget, our spouses had the same choices we had. They CHOSE to go nuts, they chose to have an affair and they chose to abandon, forsake and betray their spouse, their children, their family and MOSTLY THEMSELVES.
I think we owe it to them to except nothing less then true remorse and an OBVIOUS attempt at contrition, an ongoing attempt quite frankly. Like us, their work is never done either and to be honest, they have a hell of lot further to go, then we do.
Hugs Stayed
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YES !!!!!
I have really taken to heart the things you have written on my thread recently , all of which resonate with my breakthrough in the summer about not accepting/enabling "bad" behaviour from my h. I did. I enabled it through my tolerance.
I want to see contrition,I cannot accept any less. and only then can we begin to build, if at all. I am still getting projection / monster throwing things back at me because I used to take it.
I have developed a force field.
This article helped me a lot.
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I was impressed with this article as well being a light house. I was an enabler too, much to my chagrin. It seemed like we were always at each others throats, so I stopped. He obviously took that as capitulation. I guess he was right.
I do not capitulate anymore. I do understand that nobody gets EVERYTHING they want... but there are some things that I could not negotiate on.
Hugs Stayed
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A friend of mine is a psychiatrist and was telling me about the following; when I charted to her about MLC ......
All humans are susceptible to the "Illusion of Truth" effect -- The more we hear something, the more we believe it's true.
And that in regard to MLC or any crisis in a human being this is the most difficult part for the one in crisis and the ones playing a role in their version of the truth ( fantasy) and in her view the most damaging for a LBS is to have a clinging boomerang !!
Harder to accept what has happened and forgive as 'the truth' is too mixed up and confused to straighten it out so I asked her well how can you get thought this - she said total forgiveness, compassion and the will to start from today and let the past stay in the past .. This is for the LBS as otherwise anger will remain and no amount of remorse can fix this and contrition will not be able to naturally occur as the LBS will hold back the MLCer from finally processing what happened to them and its not the LBS role to know everything about the MLCer as that in itself is something that could hamper growth.
MLCers if trapped by LBS who watch their every move (obviously ) will not allow the natural process of healing to happen - each party needs to heal independently and start a new marriage/ relationship with lessons learnt.
So what do you think??
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I found that food for thought
its not the LBS role to know everything about the MLCer as that in itself is something that could hamper growth.
and the bit about anger remaining if you don't completely forgive.
My first response is that this does make sense. Although the LBS does need to know some in order to process it precisely so that it CAN be left in the past -- you'd have to get past the point of having things come up to hit you.
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Hi B
Really interesting stuff. To me MLC is an identity crises, not an illness as such. That said there are elements of depression in it. I think there are other periods in life when this can happen, not just at mid life or adolescence but more and more I see people going through identical behaviour to MLC in their late twenties and early thirties. But in theory it can happen at any point.
RCR used a good analogy with the idea of Humpty Dumpty, falling off the wall and breaking in pieces. Some of the pieces remain large enough to allow the MLCer to function, go to work for example, but because the other pieces are missing they can not be entire whole people.
So eventually they have to either glue some old pieces together, and/or make some new ones, find the right places for them to fit and then become whole again.
That's an enormous task and its not surprising many of them choose just to function with the pieces they have left, even if they are raggedy and disjointed.
For those with CB's they have a ringside seat at this process, and the urge to help the MLCer find some of the missing bits must be overwhelming. But the whole point of an identity crises is that for a long time the very person who is trying to help, is a big part of the problem in the MLCers mind.
But to rehash an old phrase, it is the MLCers identity crises, they have to go through this and be left alone to do it as much as possible. It's hard sometimes to believe in this process, especially if you are witnessing this on a daily basis, it's so hard to be able to detach and let go.
so I asked her well how can you get thought this - she said total forgiveness, compassion and the will to start from today and let the past stay in the past .. This is for the LBS as otherwise anger will remain and no amount of remorse can fix this and contrition will not be able to naturally occur as the LBS will hold back the MLCer from finally processing what happened to them
This reminds me of the old dilemma, forgiving, but wanting to have some sort of accountability from the MLCer. How often do we want them to say sorry, how many times do we want to see acts of contrition? And if the LBS hasn't been able to forgive and let go of anger, will that be something expected from the returning MLCer for ever? Timing is essential here too, until the MLCer is ready, holding to account might make us feel better temporarily but won't have the impact we are looking for.
Can/should we really take the moral high ground? We didn't have the crises, and yes the MLCer has to recognise the damage done. But I fear that what could happen is rather than have a new marriage based in equality we could end up holding the past over the MLCers head like a sword of Damocles.
I don't want to have a relationship like that, I know it's very difficult to do, its a hope, but I don't think I could have my h back if I wasn't ready to forgive and trust again. He would have to take responsibility for his part, but I would also have to take responsibility too for actively forgiving and being compassionate and willing to let go. Otherwise what sort of a relationship do I think I will have??
And I should be prepared to be remorseful too. Sorry for things I did within the old marriage, pre MLC. Maybe they were more sins of omission and neglect than actual acts, taking for granted, becoming self absorbed, not listening. Stuff that the standing time has shown me I needed to fix in me.
If the MLCer returns not all of these things will be in place at that time, but there needs to be a commitment to work on them from both sides.
Is any of that easy? no in some ways I can see it's even harder to do and go through than most parts of this journey. I quail at the thought of whether I could do that.
I'm at a point where I'm settled in myself, I can see that working to forgiveness in my current state is probably a lot simpler than doing it with my spouse living back with me. But I really would want to aim for trust, compassion and forgiveness, for my own sake and his. If I found I wasn't able to, I couldn't go on with it.
I can't pre-empt myself here, I have done that too many times before, told myself I was done etc, or I was deeply committed to a restored marriage, only to find that the sands keep shifting. Now I just try to concentrate on the step I am on, before I'm ready to take the next one.
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
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Guilt vs Remorse,
To me it seems we should not expect anything. But to move forward with this relationship we need to see Remorse.
But I don't think we should hold our breath as it could be a long time coming. This is why in this Forum we are told to look after ourselves and the rest (should) follow. But if it does not follow at least we have improved ourselves.
As most people acknowledge, we had a part to play in this, but the roots of MLC go way back, even before we met our spouse.
We can't be held completely responsible but maybe we helped cause a trigger or maybe it was just a sequence of events which brought these brain programs into effect.
Whatever the situation, in some MLC there will be no Guilt and then probably no Remorse and then we must act accordingly.
Certainly it is unlikely for Guilt or Remorse while ever there is an OP feeding the MLC.
Where there is Guilt, maybe there will be Remorse and we must be patient, calm and wait and watch.
Where there is remorse, we should be understanding and stand behind our boundary lines.
Maybe there is a sequence, from awareness, to Guilt, to Remorse? This is how I see it and understand it. But what do I know? I am still watching it.
Some OP's are needy and/or Gold Diggers.
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For me, it is a part of my growth to have an expectation (not laid at his door ) of contrition.
for my life. that my life is dignified with that.
whether it happens or not , I am not waiting for the apology to move on. only recognising and honouring that desire in me.
I used to apologise for everything. For some , I can see waiting for an apology/remorse/contrition can hold back. I am not waiting.
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Voyager
A very supportive post - I only wish I could be so insightful!! Thank you...
So thoughtful on the main issues (IMO) of how a LBS can get strong enough to deal with the consequences of someones else's actions.
Humpty Dumpty - yes i remember RCR article - using it as the metaphor for an identity crisis but had not thought of the pieces as you describe ,
Some of the pieces remain large enough to allow the MLCer to function, go to work for example, but because the other pieces are missing they can not be entire whole people.
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I did not think of the pieces of being some big enough for them to function - but when I read the above it was a Doh!! moment - We the LBS have to deal with for ourselves the fall out from someone we loved? actions. From the Broken trust, agreed commitments, lost empathy & love. (IMO) how I feel when I read your words below on forgiveness and believe this is the only way forward for me ... it is where I am now as forgiveness they say is for yourself - to quote the Mayo Clinic -
When someone you care about hurts you, you can hold on to anger, resentment and thoughts of revenge — or embrace forgiveness and move forward
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i didn't get this till recently... (IMO) forgiveness now has made for me a hugh leap forward ... I feel really fine about the future and the present and the past - is the past and it truly is, it has NOT been easy, as anger is a much more comfortable place to be in, it gives you power and a reason to exist but (IMO) it only makes you unable to be you.
Quote from a leading mental health specialist -
Nearly everyone has been hurt by the actions or words of another. Perhaps your mother criticized your parenting skills, your colleague sabotaged a project or your partner had an affair. These wounds can leave you with lasting feelings of anger, bitterness or even vengeance — but if you don't practice forgiveness, you might be the one who pays most dearly. By embracing forgiveness, you can also embrace peace, hope, gratitude and joy. Consider how forgiveness can lead you down the path of physical, emotional and spiritual well-being.
What is forgiveness?
Generally, forgiveness is a decision to let go of resentment and thoughts of revenge. The act that hurt or offended you might always remain a part of your life, but forgiveness can lessen its grip on you and help you focus on other, positive parts of your life. Forgiveness can even lead to feelings of understanding, empathy and compassion for the one who hurt you.
Forgiveness doesn't mean that you deny the other person's responsibility for hurting you, and it doesn't minimize or justify the wrong. You can forgive the person without excusing the act. Forgiveness brings a kind of peace that helps you go on with life.
What are the benefits of forgiving someone?
Letting go of grudges and bitterness can make way for compassion, kindness and peace. Forgiveness can lead to:
Healthier relationships
Greater spiritual and psychological well-being
Less anxiety, stress and hostility
Lower blood pressure
Fewer symptoms of depression
Lower risk of alcohol and substance abuse
Why is it so easy to hold a grudge?
When you're hurt by someone you love and trust, you might become angry, sad or confused. If you dwell on hurtful events or situations, grudges filled with resentment, vengeance and hostility can take root. If you allow negative feelings to crowd out positive feelings, you might find yourself swallowed up by your own bitterness or sense of injustice.
What are the effects of holding a grudge?
If you're unforgiving, you might pay the price repeatedly by bringing anger and bitterness into every relationship and new experience. Your life might become so wrapped up in the wrong that you can't enjoy the present. You might become depressed or anxious. You might feel that your life lacks meaning or purpose, or that you're at odds with your spiritual beliefs. You might lose valuable and enriching connectedness with others.
How do I reach a state of forgiveness?
Forgiveness is a commitment to a process of change. To begin, you might:
Consider the value of forgiveness and its importance in your life at a given time
Reflect on the facts of the situation, how you've reacted, and how this combination has affected your life, health and well-being
When you're ready, actively choose to forgive the person who's offended you
Move away from your role as victim and release the control and power the offending person and situation have had in your life
As you let go of grudges, you'll no longer define your life by how you've been hurt. You might even find compassion and understanding
So as Voyager says ...
This reminds me of the old dilemma, forgiving, but wanting to have some sort of accountability from the MLCer. How often do we want them to say sorry, how many times do we want to see acts of contrition? And if the LBS hasn't been able to forgive and let go of anger, will that be something expected from the returning MLCer for ever? Timing is essential here too, until the MLCer is ready, holding to account might make us feel better temporarily but won't have the impact we are looking for.
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SO how do you forgive and deal with the possible omission of obvious remorse?
again from the experts view point (not mine but has helped me) !!
What happens if I can't forgive someone?
Forgiveness can be challenging, especially if the person who's hurt you doesn't admit wrong or doesn't speak of his or her sorrow. If you find yourself stuck, consider the situation from the other person's point of view. Ask yourself why he or she would behave in such a way. Perhaps you would have reacted similarly if you faced the same situation. In addition, consider broadening your view of the world. Expect occasional imperfections from the people in your life. You might want to reflect on times you've hurt others and on those who've forgiven you. It can also be helpful to write in a journal, pray or use guided meditation — or talk with a person you've found to be wise and compassionate, such as a spiritual leader, a mental health provider, or an impartial loved one or friend. What if I have to interact with the person who hurt me but I don't want to?
If you haven't reached a state of forgiveness, being near the person who hurt you might be tense and stressful. To handle these situations, remember that you can choose to attend or avoid specific functions and gatherings. Respect yourself and do what seems best. If you choose to attend, don't be surprised by a certain amount of awkwardness and perhaps even more intense feelings. Do your best to keep an open heart and mind. You might find that the experience helps you to move forward with forgiveness.
What if the person I'm forgiving doesn't change?
Getting another person to change his or her actions, behavior or words isn't the point of forgiveness. Think of forgiveness more about how it can change your life — by bringing you peace, happiness, and emotional and spiritual healing. Forgiveness can take away the power the other person continues to wield in your life.
and the MLCers role -
What if I'm the one who needs forgiveness?
The first step is to honestly assess and acknowledge the wrongs you've done and how those wrongs have affected others. At the same time, avoid judging yourself too harshly. You're human, and you'll make mistakes. If you're truly sorry for something you've said or done, consider admitting it to those you've harmed. Speak of your sincere sorrow or regret, and specifically ask for forgiveness — without making excuses. Remember, however, you can't force someone to forgive you. Others need to move to forgiveness in their own time. Whatever the outcome, commit to treating others with compassion, empathy and respect./quote]
Hope this may help ?? As (IMO) if you are lucky to have a reconciled relationship - let the MLCer deal with how he/she makes up for what he/she has done by him/herself - actions will show he/she is changing/changed BUT its their choice?
B x
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Bewildered, Thank you for a such a helpful post on forgiveness.
I have been thinking about forgiveness a lot lately.
Beyond my WAS, I am trying to find some compassion and forgiveness for both the OW and an earlier EA that my W had right at the beginning of our sitch.. Both of these people had been my friends. The OW was not a close friend. The EA, I thought was a close friend, and had spent nights at my house (she is from out of town.)
I am not really doing this for them, but for me. I do not want to get caught up in the anger any more, it does not feel good.
I also feel remorse for ways in which I handled moments in my own sitch when I was angry and or pleading with my W. Sometimes I still struggle with forgiving myself for mistakes made during our M and also,after the BD. I have apologized to her.
What a great discussion on such a difficult topic. Thank you.
If anyone
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Hummingbird,
I feel that the forgiveness part of this crazy world we now inhabit is the hardest part of our growth as human beings .. we are on this earth as individuals responsible for all our actions and words, so when my H first let I was so hurt, then more hurt then I was panicky then more hurt then in a whirlwind of disbelief and shock ----- then thanks to outside (not good or supportive) forces - people who felt I needed to seek revenge - they made me feel that I wasn't angry at all and that anger was how i should feel so I did for a little while. Enough to make me feel unhappy, sad and wasting too much time on resentment and wanting him to fail, at EVERYTHING !!
Why? well because I had hurt pride, how could he be happy without me!! stuff - luck for me I recognised that these feelings didn't make me feel better and even thought sometimes I have slipped in the past year, so maybe 75% there - I have grown to feel sorry for him - sorry he is missing out on us and me and our family.
I know I am getting nearly 100% there, well maybe 95% (maybe the best I will ever do - but thats ok) as recently I was fortunate (IMO) enough to see some photos of my H with his OW (well I think of her as this - she is a very close, female friend, maybe not in a physical way 'girlfriend' but she must I feel emotionally support him (well as much as the MLCer can be emotionally supported) and a lady that I have know since meeting him - (a friend from his college days).
The photographs were taken at an event 4 days after his birthday - spent his actual birthday eating out with 5 other men (evidence seen on twitter!! as his birthday daytime he spent speaking at another event - (he now goes and speaks at anything asked - as they say in the UK he will attend the opening of an envelope - previously he hated this sort of thing & when he first left he was in demand and he was speaking everywhere but now he isn't so much in demand) so this event he was just a participant.
Background
OW, she is 49 - he is just 53, last week, the majority of the group that was partaking in this event were between 25 - 35 years old. The event was over a weekend - was connected in a very abstract way to his job. but work as he is now working 100% all the time!! day night weekends writes work blogs every week 2 x A4 in length and spends his weeknight on trains (evidence to support this not guessing).
A work related friend who knows H and was at the event sent me the link - there were about 20 pictures of people to scroll through, she sent them as she felt it was an illustration of 'H' as a "Happy Man???" Not?!! and she thought (she doesn't know OW) he was on his own??
He featured in approx. 12 of them, with the OW and on each and every one of them he looks sooo disconnected and unhappy, well maybe a better word is empty and very much in a crowd but so on 'his own', OW and he never are connected, never looking at each other, or any kind of obvious connection (one has him talking to someone with OW looking on with a strained smile on her face, looking at him adoringly (well again IMO) and trying very hard to be involved (which was IMO an impossibility as looking at him he is on another planet) neither women OW or the one he was chatting too seemed in fact connected to him.
However, the best photo was him looking towards the camera (others are smiling at the camera, or deep in chat) he is looking straight ahead hands wrapped around his knees - he's sat on a bean bag on the floor - told you this was a very young peoples event!!, and looks mesmerised and goggled eyes staring into space. OW is looking the other way and sat behind his approx (guessing a couple of feet), a very odd photo - well they all are, some he is on his mobile, taking pictures of ?? ONE he has his arms on his head and so his back completely to OW, and the best one in it - he is asleep!! Well on enlarging it - his eyes are closed!! so my view is asleep or 'just resting his eyes'
and guess what I felt ??
Not joy , no i felt sorry for him and for OW too. Why would anyone want a relationship with this person??what kind of person is he that she thinks so little of herself? she looked strained and resigned to this is it!!
So my H wants happiness?
So my H wants freedom, excitement and to change the world and most important an OW that doesn't have any expectations from him to fulfil any role he doesn't want to do? (remember I nagged him to take out the rubbish= I's so horrible, Was so mean to him all the time -
the list is endless silliness and best of all i was wasteful = I cooked sometimes too much pasta/rice/potatoes at dinner)!!
Well looking at these photos he has freedom - to be miserable
he has an OW friend or whatever she is who has trillions of expectations but is so insecure with him , so lacking in self confidence that she will sit there and hope he notices her??????????? Put up with being on call, whenever he wants her - Totally crazy of as the Schnoppies would say BAT S*** CRAZY!!
So who is the lucky one now??
ME
US !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Because they are NOT happy, They are not content, have any freedom - they are lonely, lost and empty!!
So sorry got sidetracked but this was important to why forgiveness (to me) is so IMPORTANT ..
Forgiveness
“We should not look back unless it is to derive useful lessons from past errors, and for the purpose of profiting by dearly bought experience.”
~ George Washington
So if we the LBS'S have done as RCR says our mirror work, as HB says; learnt the serious lessons for personal growth along our way WE will find forgiveness; which will replace anger, resentment and revenge.
HOW?
UNblock the issues that stop us from moving forward - it is that one thing that’s supposed to be behind us: the past. Our unconscious mind has carefully recorded every little detail of what has happened to us in the past and uses that information to determine what is possible for us in the future. It’s not a conscious choice.
Many of us who have done work in the personal growth arena recognise that our history doesn’t determine our destiny. As that great philosopher ?!! Mick Jagger says,
“The past is a great place and I don’t want to erase it or regret it, but I don’t want to be its prisoner either.”
Still, your unconscious mind drags this past forward and uses it to filter information, form reactions to new situations, and influence our choices. Because it’s an unconscious process, we don’t even know that it’s happening – until we find ourselves sabotaging our best efforts to meet our goals and create change in our lives.
Here’s how it works: Say as a child you were embarrassed by a teacher you liked when making a presentation to your class.
Your unconscious – which is always eager to protect you from harm – makes a note: “Speaking in public is dangerous - you will be embarrassed ” as you go through life -
You may have completely forgotten the incident -- but your unconscious never does! So if you decide to do a little public speaking for PR for yourself or your business, your unconscious makes you think , “Whoa! Not that! It’ll be too painful!”
Of course, your unconscious can’t actually speak/shout etc , so what does it do instead? It makes your palms sweat and your knees shake and might even make you sick to your stomach – whatever it takes to keep you from entering that “dangerous” situation.
BUT weird as this may be ...(psychology training from University days) .....
The other thing about your past is that it never really happened. Actually, it happened but the memory you have of it has been twisted, coloured, and distorted by your immature belief system.
As poet Adrienne Rich put it, “Every journey into the past is complicated by delusions, false memories, false namings of real events.”
Have you ever talked to your siblings or childhood friends about incidents in your distant past? Have you noticed that none of you remembers those incidents exactly the same way? Your unconscious doesn’t carry forward a factual accounting of the events in your history. It carries its own interpretations of events and throws them in front of you whenever it perceives you moving into unknown, unsafe territory.
Forgiveness is an amazing human power and it's worth understanding, when we hold on to our pain, anger or resentment, we are burdened by them. We forgive because we need to lighten our load, and not carry pain forward relentlessly.
Whether it's the Yom Kippur service in Judaism, the redemptive message of Easter or a recovering alcoholic’s commitment to a fearless moral inventory, forgiving and asking for forgiveness is a human blessing.
However - Forgive Does Not Mean Forget: We are told over and over again, that we should forgive and forget. In my opinion, forgiving is sufficient, forgetting may be asking too much, or simply be stupid. After all, if someone hurt you, it’s a good idea to be aware that it could happen again. And if you learned something wise from forgiving someone, it is a good thing to remember how you came to learn the lesson that has proved so valuable.
However - The cost of never considering the possibility of forgiving is that you risk remaining a victim forever – and if you’re not careful, you can assume a victim persona that can impact future relationships and even your children.
So IMO - The ability to truly forgive is a gift. It is not as simple as wanting to forgive or saying that you’re sorry to someone you’ve hurt.
We all wish life was that simple.
If you do the work of forgiveness, you actually mature. Bad things happen to good people all the time. Life is not fair. You can be traumatised, you can be bitter, you can be angry – but you’re better off being realistic and dealing with those you love from a place of emotional clarity.
The past does not have to dictate your future. But, the choice, when possible, is yours.
There is a power to being human. USE IT! - again just IMO , however if you do then IMO forgiveness may be one of our greatest strengths.
Bx
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To forget is to deny the learning our trials have taught us. To acknowledge and learn from them enables us to move forward into forgiveness, peace and happiness for ourselves.
But if we focus totally on our physical and emotional scars we will never move forward nor forgive the person/persons who caused them.
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Lovely post on forgiveness, B. It's something that I've been working on for a long time, and it's still a work in progress. I completely agree that it is very important, for US, so that we live fully, rather than becoming bitter.
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Hummingbird,
I feel that the forgiveness part of this crazy world we now inhabit is the hardest part of our growth as human beings .. we are on this earth as individuals responsible for all our actions and words, so when my H first left I was so hurt, then more hurt then I was panicky then more hurt then in a whirlwind of disbelief and shock ----- then thanks to outside (not good or supportive) forces - people who felt I needed to seek revenge - they made me feel that I wasn't angry at all and that anger was how i should feel so I did for a little while. Enough to make me feel unhappy, sad and wasting too much time on resentment and wanting him to fail, at EVERYTHING !!
Why? well because I had hurt pride, how could he be happy without me!! stuff - luck for me I recognised that these feelings didn't make me feel better and even thought sometimes I have slipped in the past year, so maybe 75% there - I have grown to feel sorry for him - sorry he is missing out on us and me and our family.
I know I am getting nearly 100% there, well maybe 95% (maybe the best I will ever do - but thats ok) as recently I was fortunate (IMO) enough to see some photos of my H with his OW (well I think of her as this - she is a very close, female friend, maybe not in a physical way 'girlfriend' but she must I feel emotionally support him (well as much as the MLCer can be emotionally supported) and a lady that I have know since meeting him - (a friend from his college days).
The photographs were taken at an event 4 days after his birthday - spent his actual birthday eating out with 5 other men (evidence seen on twitter!! as his birthday daytime he spent speaking at another event - (he now goes and speaks at anything asked - as they say in the UK he will attend the opening of an envelope - previously he hated this sort of thing & when he first left he was in demand and he was speaking everywhere but now he isn't so much in demand) so this event he was just a participant.
Background
OW, she is 49 - he is just 53, last week, the majority of the group that was partaking in this event were between 25 - 35 years old. The event was over a weekend - was connected in a very abstract way to his job. but work as he is now working 100% all the time!! day night weekends writes work blogs every week 2 x A4 in length and spends his weeknight on trains (evidence to support this not guessing).
A work related friend who knows H and was at the event sent me the link - there were about 20 pictures of people to scroll through, she sent them as she felt it was an illustration of 'H' as a "Happy Man???" Not?!! and she thought (she doesn't know OW) he was on his own??
He featured in approx. 12 of them, with the OW and on each and every one of them he looks sooo disconnected and unhappy, well maybe a better word is empty and very much in a crowd but so on 'his own', OW and he never are connected, never looking at each other, or any kind of obvious connection (one has him talking to someone with OW looking on with a strained smile on her face, looking at him adoringly (well again IMO) and trying very hard to be involved (which was IMO an impossibility as looking at him he is on another planet) neither women OW or the one he was chatting too seemed in fact connected to him.
However, the best photo was him looking towards the camera (others are smiling at the camera, or deep in chat) he is looking straight ahead hands wrapped around his knees - he's sat on a bean bag on the floor - told you this was a very young peoples event!!, and looks mesmerised and goggled eyes staring into space. OW is looking the other way and sat behind his approx (guessing a couple of feet), a very odd photo - well they all are, some he is on his mobile, taking pictures of ?? ONE he has his arms on his head and so his back completely to OW, and the best one in it - he is asleep!! Well on enlarging it - his eyes are closed!! so my view is asleep or 'just resting his eyes'
and guess what I felt ??
Not joy , no i felt sorry for him and for OW too. Why would anyone want a relationship with this person??what kind of person is he that she thinks so little of herself? she looked strained and resigned to this is it!!
So my H wants happiness?
So my H wants freedom, excitement and to change the world and most important an OW that doesn't have any expectations from him to fulfil any role he doesn't want to do? (remember I nagged him to take out the rubbish= I's so horrible, Was so mean to him all the time -
the list is endless silliness and best of all i was wasteful = I cooked sometimes too much pasta/rice/potatoes at dinner)!!
Well looking at these photos he has freedom - to be miserable
he has an OW friend or whatever she is who has trillions of expectations but is so insecure with him , so lacking in self confidence that she will sit there and hope he notices her??????????? Put up with being on call, whenever he wants her - Totally crazy of as the Schnoppies would say BAT S*** CRAZY!!
So who is the lucky one now??
ME
US !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Because they are NOT happy, They are not content, have any freedom - they are lonely, lost and empty!!
So sorry got sidetracked but this was important to why forgiveness (to me) is so IMPORTANT ..
Forgiveness
“We should not look back unless it is to derive useful lessons from past errors, and for the purpose of profiting by dearly bought experience.”
~ George Washington
So if we the LBS'S have done as RCR says our mirror work, as HB says; learnt the serious lessons for personal growth along our way WE will find forgiveness; which will replace anger, resentment and revenge.
HOW?
UNblock the issues that stop us from moving forward - it is that one thing that’s supposed to be behind us: the past. Our unconscious mind has carefully recorded every little detail of what has happened to us in the past and uses that information to determine what is possible for us in the future. It’s not a conscious choice.
Many of us who have done work in the personal growth arena recognise that our history doesn’t determine our destiny. As that great philosopher ?!! Mick Jagger says,
“The past is a great place and I don’t want to erase it or regret it, but I don’t want to be its prisoner either.”
Still, your unconscious mind drags this past forward and uses it to filter information, form reactions to new situations, and influence our choices. Because it’s an unconscious process, we don’t even know that it’s happening – until we find ourselves sabotaging our best efforts to meet our goals and create change in our lives.
Here’s how it works: Say as a child you were embarrassed by a teacher you liked when making a presentation to your class.
Your unconscious – which is always eager to protect you from harm – makes a note: “Speaking in public is dangerous - you will be embarrassed ” as you go through life -
You may have completely forgotten the incident -- but your unconscious never does! So if you decide to do a little public speaking for PR for yourself or your business, your unconscious makes you think , “Whoa! Not that! It’ll be too painful!”
Of course, your unconscious can’t actually speak/shout etc , so what does it do instead? It makes your palms sweat and your knees shake and might even make you sick to your stomach – whatever it takes to keep you from entering that “dangerous” situation.
BUT weird as this may be ...(psychology training from University days) .....
The other thing about your past is that it never really happened. Actually, it happened but the memory you have of it has been twisted, coloured, and distorted by your immature belief system.
As poet Adrienne Rich put it, “Every journey into the past is complicated by delusions, false memories, false namings of real events.”
Have you ever talked to your siblings or childhood friends about incidents in your distant past? Have you noticed that none of you remembers those incidents exactly the same way? Your unconscious doesn’t carry forward a factual accounting of the events in your history. It carries its own interpretations of events and throws them in front of you whenever it perceives you moving into unknown, unsafe territory.
Forgiveness is an amazing human power and it's worth understanding, when we hold on to our pain, anger or resentment, we are burdened by them. We forgive because we need to lighten our load, and not carry pain forward relentlessly.
Whether it's the Yom Kippur service in Judaism, the redemptive message of Easter or a recovering alcoholic’s commitment to a fearless moral inventory, forgiving and asking for forgiveness is a human blessing.
However - Forgive Does Not Mean Forget: We are told over and over again, that we should forgive and forget. In my opinion, forgiving is sufficient, forgetting may be asking too much, or simply be stupid. After all, if someone hurt you, it’s a good idea to be aware that it could happen again. And if you learned something wise from forgiving someone, it is a good thing to remember how you came to learn the lesson that has proved so valuable.
However - The cost of never considering the possibility of forgiving is that you risk remaining a victim forever – and if you’re not careful, you can assume a victim persona that can impact future relationships and even your children.
So IMO - The ability to truly forgive is a gift. It is not as simple as wanting to forgive or saying that you’re sorry to someone you’ve hurt.
We all wish life was that simple.
If you do the work of forgiveness, you actually mature. Bad things happen to good people all the time. Life is not fair. You can be traumatised, you can be bitter, you can be angry – but you’re better off being realistic and dealing with those you love from a place of emotional clarity.
The past does not have to dictate your future. But, the choice, when possible, is yours.
There is a power to being human. USE IT! - again just IMO , however if you do then IMO forgiveness may be one of our greatest strengths.
Bx
-
Sorry don't know what happened here - re posted my post of a few hours ago
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Thank you so so much Bewildered for another great post that challenges me to think and to grow.
You have opened my eyes to so much about forgiveness. I was seeing it as having compassion for W and understanding how her pain and fear impacted our break-up. Every time I would go there, see her with those kind eyes, I would end up missing her more and hurting more. Again, the focus was on her, not me, a Co-D pattern. I think it was also an attempt on my part to not let go, to excuse her in order to keep a path open to reconciling.
I read your posts and others on the web and see forgiveness as a different process now. My work is on using this experience to understand myself better, to grow by seeing the stories I create about my experience in the world which keep me imprisoned and by letting go of the story by creating a new one.
I can look at the story of my M differently.
I can see that this has happened in order for me to learn how to forgive. I can see that this is an opportunity for me to challenge and let go of the stories I tell myself about abandonment and being unlovable ...replacing them with the awareness of the uncertainty of life and my ability to survive and thrive in it, that the journey that another takes is not a reflection of us but them, that this is my opportunity to unfold and grow, to understand how my fears manifested what i feared the most... and on and on...
My forgiveness needs to start with me.. and my own shortcomings... facing them honestly and compassionately and expand from there..
I am starting to work on creating a new story... about myself and my M... and that story can lead me to let go of the old ones and to forgive.
Thank you, Bewildered :)
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Hummingbird
It has taken me a long time to work forgiveness out and how to achieve it!!
each and every day, in fact many times a day Something happens that just consolidates my view - that as you said so elequently , about changing ourselves to be able to grow upwards and forward.
I see my H MLC as until he gets to some so of acceptance as he is moving either backwards or sideways - a few dots do forward movement but ?? So when you see forgiveness is what is holding him back - he can't forgive me, for a multitude of not important issue, the world and whatever he will stay in flux. This is what finally made me see -that forgiveness is freeing For us
B x
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So when you see forgiveness is what is holding him back - he can't forgive me, for a multitude of not important issue, the world and whatever he will stay in flux.
This is a great way to put it, B. It made me think, about that, and about what things I still may not have forgiven him for.
More practice needed...
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The mind of an MCLer is so clouded and confused getting some clarity to even consider forgiveness takes a sismic shift along the tunnel.
That's why it is important for the LBS to learn and heal on their journey to get to forgiveness. In doing that they pull ahead of the MLCer on the spiritual, psychological and emotional journey. This changes the dynamic and interaction between the MLCers and their spouse enabling the spouse to become the lighthouse in the dark.
To do this the LBS MUST learn to detach, live their life and not to concentrate on the MLC journey only their own. Eventually the process completes and all the jigsaw pieces come together, whatever the outcome.
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JA,
I truly appreciate your posts as they are so calm and enlightening.
I struggle with forgiveness and taking this so personally.
Your post reminds me that I need to live my life and truly let go of my H.
Thank you
Limitless
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Forgiveness is for you! It's hard to find though and I think like everything else, it has to be worked through slowly. It DOESN'T just happen overnight... and the worst part, thinking total forgiveness had been reached... only to find, there was more.
We are not just forgiving somebody who has left us. This person turned our whole lives upside down. The word TRUST had to be redefined. Everybody close to the situation required "counseling". Budgets had to be written up and strictly adhered, if there was anything let to BUDGET. Homes sold. Divorces paid for. Probably just the TIP OF THE ICEBERG.
I don't care how saintly a person is, the fall out from MLC is an uphill run to get to forgiveness. Rushing forgiveness is almost as bad as rushing into the divorce. Everything needs to be worked through.
I don't think the MLCer is the only one who needs 2-7 years to get through, the LBS probably needs twice that time to get OVER this. Lives are permanently altered. Doesn't mean it will be a bad thing, but it sure takes some time to find the "peaceful place" within ourselves.
hugs Stayed
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Stayed, i cannot second what you have said here enough.
I get the feeling that there is a little bit of pressure put on people in the forum to find forgiveness quickly and find your peace. It's not a lost set of keys, it's as you say - when you are good and ready and mean it you will find it. Rushing, pretending is not good enough, you need to be ready. I certainly know for some things i haven't forgiven yet and I am into year 4. We underestimate often what the true costs are to the LBS and families.
You are absolutely right, the devastation to most of our lives is huge and it was caused by one person, that's a whole lot of forgiving to get done. One item at a time ! No matter how hard we try we will never trust the same EVER. Not just our MLCer but others aswell. Redefining that cannot be done alone and cliche's are born out of truth "once bitten twice shy", fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me". Those alone suggest that finding peace with that level of broken trust may never completely be found.
SD
x
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No matter how hard we try we will never trust the same EVER. Not just our MLCer but others as well.
SD I agree with this. My Dad cheated on my Mom and though they managed to come through it and loved each other very much, my Mom never completely trusted my Dad again. It was always in the back of her mind even if it was just a little bit.
I don't know that I could ever get back to the same level of trust with my MLCr that I had before bomb drop. He has stripped our relationship of its innocence and security. There will be parts of me that he will never be able to access again.......I wonder if he will ever realize how much he has destroyed by his actions.
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You got my point exactly Superdog. Many think, "ah ha, Stayed obviously isn't healed yet... ah ha, Stayed's marriage isn't as great as she makes out"... on and on. No, it's not that SIMPLE folks. Sure, there is nothing I want more then to let this go. Forget it EVER happened and just live out the rest of my life, happy and at peace. Totally practicing the lessons learned, appreciating what I almost lost. IF ONLY it were that simple.
A sassy comment, a strange look, a strange, attractive, woman/man gushes all over your spouse, or seems overtly familiar... ughhhhhhhh, there you are, wondering. NO, you never TRUST them again... or ANYBODY, at least not like you did. Some other poor devil carries the burden of your mistrust, due to your SPOUSE. How is that fair? It's not, but what can you do? Those "cliches" are based on truths, facts... who the "hell" would ever trust like that again?
There is no need to rush anything. Just get yourselves HEALED. Worry about FORGIVENESS and other stuff when you can feel that it has to be dealt with. Believe me, you will know. I'm still filtering through all the layers attached to this "crisis" that our spouses had.
In the end, they heal better then we do. For one thing, they ABSOLUTELY, POSITIVELY KNOW, they can TRUST US! Can you believe that? Honestly, you just can't make this $hit up!!! :-\
hugs Stayed
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Stayed.....
In the end, they heal better then we do. For one thing, they ABSOLUTELY, POSITIVELY KNOW, they can TRUST US! Can you believe that? Honestly, you just can't make this $hit up!!! :-\
Luck Ba****ds
after turning everyone else over, and also our potential future relationships.
But we must all believe in Karma.
I just saw a picture of my wife's OM car upside down. He was not injured but his sports car looks pretty sick. Happened Wednesday.
You see , there is a God.
-
I wouldn't want him seriously hurt or dead, but I must say, a nasty cut, a broken arm, maybe "pelvis"... :-\ would that have been asking too much?
:-X OOOOOOOOOOOPS, I really am bad aren't I?
hugs Freddygone... Stayed
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Stayed,
I don't think I should confess to my wishes, but it does not involve forgiveness to this guy who has spat on my family and marriage.
It's good that I was not in the country and that it was a self imposed accident by an adolescent 52 year old.
When two MLC's combine (the OM and my wife) it is a heady cocktail but at least my ex-wife was not in the car. That is a blessing.
Now it is a source of amusement to my daughters that his 'girly sports car' was wrecked and hopefully some significant inconvenience is the result.
I will admit to printing out the picture A4 size and sticking it on my wall. :)
It's a long way to go but I do believe that things balance out in the end. For all our pain and suffering we will have our up times and the best revenge is our success and happiness.
It really made my weekend.....I am bad too. ;D
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hehehe... hugs Stayed
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In the end, they heal better then we do. For one thing, they ABSOLUTELY, POSITIVELY KNOW, they can TRUST US! Can you believe that? Honestly, you just can't make this $hit up!!! :-\
True. And they also forget of lot of what they have done. But we don't. We will forget some of what happened but not all.
Forgiveness is for us but, like Stayed said, when we think we're there, more to come. And when we are still dealing with a spouses crisis a lot may still come our way. A lot that will have to be forgiven. No need, no point, in fact, to rush to forgiveness.
We must take our time. And if our time will be twice as much as it took the Mlcer to have their crisis, so be it.
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Thanked Stayed for this, I read a similar article about guilt vs remorse and sent it to my H (yes not the best move), which he read and responded to, he said he felt guilt and remorse, tho of course not true remorse as he's never apologised. Anyway I think this is such a great explanation and a much better version of the one which was clearly written in anger.
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When I tell my H that I wish I had never had his children, that I want a divorce, that he is spending money like crazy, he says nothing. Why is that?
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No offence meant Lovely1, but how would anyone respond to another person telling them that they wish they had never had their children? I'm sure you have heard a lot of mean things from him too i understand, but thats a low blow. Would you like your kids to hear that?
As i said not meant to offend you, but that one is harsh. Our kids are one of the best things to come out of our unions regardless of our H's actions against us.
Sd
x
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I think if you're really thinking about initiating a divorce, which, if he's being financially irresponsible, may be in your best interest, that you should see if you can approach it civilly for the sake of your children, and move forward with it. Threat of leaving him in hopes it will snap him out of it will not work with an MLCer - on the contrary, it will give them justification for their actions.
I don't have children, but I also agree with superdog that no matter what the relationship now, please come to peace with the gift your children are to you. They should know they have one solid parent in their corner.
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When I tell my H that I wish I had never had his children, that I want a divorce, that he is spending money like crazy, he says nothing. Why is that?
Don't EVER EVER let your children hear you say that! Those are DEVASTATING words to a child. >:(
And, the advice you have been given here is correct--your H has nothing to say. If you want a divorce, then do it for you, but do NOT fling ugliness about your children. Think before you speak. Do not fight in front of the children AT ALL. Be their sweetness and their pillar. You don't need permission nor sanction from your H for a divorce, and you will not get it, anyway. You will not bring him closer by being ugly. I know first hand--I said every ugly thing I could think of to my exH, out of earshot of the children (I regret it, as I now know he is a sick man), but I never ever insinuated that the children were a mistake. They are not. They are my biggest source of pride and joy in life. Their father was a good father for most of their childhood. Do I wish for their sake that their father was a better man? Of COURSE I do, but I don't regret that we made them together.
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Just read through this whole thread - Voyager, stayed, Bewildered and all the rest of you, this is a deep and enlightening discussion. Learning a lot, thinking a lot....
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It's a big subject osb... huge in fact. We are all so unique and the way we express guilt, and remorse is unique as well. The way we forgive, equally so. I also believe that forgiveness varies on how much forgiveness is needed, how much face to fact time is going to be involved. If you never reconcile and you have no children, or anything to remain connected, you can simply forgive him/her and move on with your life. Never having to have another thing to do with them in fact. If there are children, pets, business or something, then you need to be able to communicate, have some sort of a relationship that can be civil, cooperative and supportive. Then the reconciled forgiveness, which I don't think anybody but one who has been through this, can truly understand what that is like, unless they have done it.
I think it really help us all though to get other peoples perspectives. I have found it so helpful as I am grateful that my marriage survived but sometimes, I forget to be more appreciative. At the same time, I actually think it is my h who should be the MOST grateful and I admit, he often says that actually... and I am vain/little/still angry enough or something, to agree with him. I do feel a "little guilty" at times, because I think I should have completely forgiven and if not forgot but certainly not expect any more REDEMPTION (lack of a better word) from h or anybody else for that matter. This forum helps me to remember, that I have much to be grateful, thankful for.
This is a complicated subject. Not an easy thing to understand, let alone know exactly what it is we NEED to heal and fully recover from. Sometimes I wonder if a full recovery is ever really possible! Don't get me wrong, I feel good, really good, but this event still monopolizes a good deal of my head space, definitely not like it used to, recalling events clearly is slowly fading, which has to be a good sign, but it is STILL there. Perhaps because of my desire to help others through this, but I don't really believe that, in fact, I think it has done more to eradicate the demons that haunt me, then to instill them deeper into my psychic.
Lovely, I'm sure you didn't mean what you said about regretting having his children! I think that was just a moment of intense rage and something that you felt would TRIGGER a reaction from your MLCer. If anything you now have PROOF of just out SICK he really is. I feel the need to say, my children were the ONE THING that kept me grateful about ever having KNOWN my h. I honestly believe that if we had not had children, I would not have been an RCR, my spouse would not have seen EVER AGAIN. Of course, I honestly do not know that, because I was stunned when I found myself searching frantically for a site that BELIEVED Marriages that has suffered infidelity could survive, hehehe. So perhaps, I would have been the same, with or without children. I will never know, I had 5 at the time and marriages underway... new grandchild due towards the end of it... ughhhhhhhhhhh. We just don't know do we.
That being said, the one thing I absolutely know for sure, I WAS/AM/always will be, grateful for the greatest gift he ever gave me and that is our children and now grandchildren.
hugs Stayed
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Thanks for the original post Stayed, it really hit home for me .
After frst BD day and the decision to reconcile H showed small signs of guilt but no remorse, he got emotional but it was mostly about how his actions made him feel not about how I felt . I had to comfort him . He was struggling with the guilt and I think after the initial shock when I stated to show some signs of stress the guilt hit him again , he could not cope and he ran straight to other woman .
Since then he has said he feels sad that I am sad but I think he is still stuck in the guilt phase and keeps running . He has hidden himself away in his new life and can't face me , he says that if he speaks to me it will give me the idea that things will change . It used to annoy me but I have to accept that he will face me when he feels ready and if he does show remorse I am likely to be the last to see it . :)
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I can pretty much guarantee that you will be the last person to hear or know about his remorse. I eventually discovered that what they really can't face is that PERSON! That person, that does those sort of things. When my h finally faced his remorse, he sobbed most of the night... and I mean sobbed. Not the "I feel so badly for me", it was the sobbing of somebody who couldn't believe he could ever be like that, and he SIMPLY did not know how ANYBODY could ever forgive him... let alone himself.
For almost 2 years prior to that day, he remained arrogant, defiant, cocky, resentful (he desperately wanted me to give him a pass), angry at me for not letting him away with it. It was pretty horrific.
Don't hold your breath my dear, but I would be very surprised if some day, you do not get a SINCERE apology. I'm not sure they can go easily to their maker without at least speaking of their regret. Little good that might do you though, other then it is always wonderful to get a sincere apology.
hugs Stayed
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I can pretty much guarantee that you will be the last person to hear or know about his remorse. I eventually discovered that what they really can't face is that PERSON! That person, that does those sort of things. When my h finally faced his remorse, he sobbed most of the night... and I mean sobbed. Not the "I feel so badly for me", it was the sobbing of somebody who couldn't believe he could ever be like that, and he SIMPLY did not know how ANYBODY could ever forgive him... let alone himself.
For almost 2 years prior to that day, he remained arrogant, defiant, cocky, resentful (he desperately wanted me to give him a pass), angry at me for not letting him away with it. It was pretty horrific.
Don't hold your breath my dear, but I would be very surprised if some day, you do not get a SINCERE apology. I'm not sure they can go easily to their maker without at least speaking of their regret. Little good that might do you though, other then it is always wonderful to get a sincere apology.
hugs Stayed
Thanks Stayed , I will hold on to your words when I am feeling low .
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Hello all,
I read this a few months ago and found myself nodding my head at the many descriptions of "apologies" I have heard over the years from my H. It also reminded me of what to watch out for in the future - are his words coming from a place of guilt or true remorse?
So far, all I heat is guilt-driven.
How many of you have heard your MLCers in this?
http://www.luke173ministries.org/466803
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An article I found interestung ....
Why is it so terrifying to apologize?
A strong leader knows the power of an apology. When a leader recognizes that something of value has been broken or lost, s/he has the power to mend it through the delivery of a good apology.
The decision to give an apology is rooted in the ability to separate behavior from the person that you are. It takes a strong sense of self to step back and recognize when something happened that shouldn’t have, even when you played a part in it.
Sometimes an apology requires you to allow a part of your ego to die. The reward is that once you let it die, you are stronger, with more integrity and a greater ability as a leader.
“If I hurt you, I’m sorry” doesn’t cut it.
A good apology has 4 features:
1. Admit what you did wrong.
This is about behavior not the person that you are. A statement like ‘When I — I failed to recognize your true value” or “When I — I jeopardized what was really important here which is—— and I regret that.” It is an acknowledgement of what happened that shouldn’t have as opposed to an opportunity to highlight all that you did right or what other people did wrong that was even worse than what you did (defensiveness). It requires a clear recognition of what happened that shouldn’t have. ”If I hurt you, I’m sorry” doesn’t cut it.
2. Repair the damage.
What action can be taken to bring the situation back to wholeness? Pay for the broken item, explain the situation to people who were affected, genuinely acknowledge what damage was done and take action to remedy it so it does not linger into the future.
3. Give reasonable assurance that it will not happen again.
Create new systems for safety checks, commit to a new course of action, or identify consequences that will be imposed to deter recurrence of the incident.
4. Ask what you can do to make it better.
Beyond the physical damage there is damage to the trust between the parties. Commit to hearing their concerns, or taking actions that will repair the feelings of the injured party. There is a responsibility on the part of the injured party to not extract such a heavy toll more damage is done and a cycle of victimization develops.
A crisis is the crucible in which a man, or a leader is measured and an apology is very powerful. During this moment integrity, and values become evident. It is an opportunity to rise to your better self, as James Burke did during the tragic Tylenol case in 1982 where the tampered seal of several bottles resulted in cyanide poisoning of seven people in the Chicago area. As CEO, Burke immediately established a task force to take on two clear missions: 1. protect our clients, in keeping with the corporate mission statement, and 2. save the brand.
They immediately warned people using all available media (admit what is wrong), they stopped all production of Tylenol locally and then recalled over $100,000,000 worth of product nationally until they were clear on how people were being killed (give reasonable assurance it won’t happen again) and designed a tamper-proof bottle within two months. Burke gave non-stop press conferences to show he was in charge and make himself available (ask what you can do to make it better). Even though Tylenol was not found to be negligent in any way, they offered counseling to the grieving families and compensation (repair the damage).
In this crisis Burke showed the integrity and the root values of Tylenol, namely its customers’ safety over making money. Burke took the bullet for what was happening to protect others and heal the relationship. He did not focus his effort on making sure Tylenol was not seen to be at fault.
I’ve used this apology format in numerous situations from squabbles between kids, my relationships, and professional intervention to restore relationships after cyber bullying incidents. It is really effective. The key is to ensure that the apology is recognized as coming from a position of strength of character, an embodiment of your inner Warrior King.
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An article I found interestung ....
Why is it so terrifying to apologize?
A strong leader knows the power of an apology. When a leader recognizes that something of value has been broken or lost, s/he has the power to mend it through the delivery of a good apology.
The decision to give an apology is rooted in the ability to separate behavior from the person that you are. It takes a strong sense of self to step back and recognize when something happened that shouldn’t have, even when you played a part in it.
Sometimes an apology requires you to allow a part of your ego to die. The reward is that once you let it die, you are stronger, with more integrity and a greater ability as a leader.
“If I hurt you, I’m sorry” doesn’t cut it.
A good apology has 4 features:
1. Admit what you did wrong.
This is about behavior not the person that you are. A statement like ‘When I — I failed to recognize your true value” or “When I — I jeopardized what was really important here which is—— and I regret that.” It is an acknowledgement of what happened that shouldn’t have as opposed to an opportunity to highlight all that you did right or what other people did wrong that was even worse than what you did (defensiveness). It requires a clear recognition of what happened that shouldn’t have. ”If I hurt you, I’m sorry” doesn’t cut it.
2. Repair the damage.
What action can be taken to bring the situation back to wholeness? Pay for the broken item, explain the situation to people who were affected, genuinely acknowledge what damage was done and take action to remedy it so it does not linger into the future.
3. Give reasonable assurance that it will not happen again.
Create new systems for safety checks, commit to a new course of action, or identify consequences that will be imposed to deter recurrence of the incident.
4. Ask what you can do to make it better.
Beyond the physical damage there is damage to the trust between the parties. Commit to hearing their concerns, or taking actions that will repair the feelings of the injured party. There is a responsibility on the part of the injured party to not extract such a heavy toll more damage is done and a cycle of victimization develops.
A crisis is the crucible in which a man, or a leader is measured and an apology is very powerful. During this moment integrity, and values become evident. It is an opportunity to rise to your better self, as James Burke did during the tragic Tylenol case in 1982 where the tampered seal of several bottles resulted in cyanide poisoning of seven people in the Chicago area. As CEO, Burke immediately established a task force to take on two clear missions: 1. protect our clients, in keeping with the corporate mission statement, and 2. save the brand.
They immediately warned people using all available media (admit what is wrong), they stopped all production of Tylenol locally and then recalled over $100,000,000 worth of product nationally until they were clear on how people were being killed (give reasonable assurance it won’t happen again) and designed a tamper-proof bottle within two months. Burke gave non-stop press conferences to show he was in charge and make himself available (ask what you can do to make it better). Even though Tylenol was not found to be negligent in any way, they offered counseling to the grieving families and compensation (repair the damage).
In this crisis Burke showed the integrity and the root values of Tylenol, namely its customers’ safety over making money. Burke took the bullet for what was happening to protect others and heal the relationship. He did not focus his effort on making sure Tylenol was not seen to be at fault.
I’ve used this apology format in numerous situations from squabbles between kids, my relationships, and professional intervention to restore relationships after cyber bullying incidents. It is really effective. The key is to ensure that the apology is recognized as coming from a position of strength of character, an embodiment of your inner Warrior King.
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Interesting article - Funny thing is I received a text today from H telling me he was an idiot and he is getting tired of putting me through hell and he loves me. Only time will tell if that is remorse or guilt. He also asked for forgiveness (something he hasn't done until today). I don't know I am very leery about clinging boomerang activity though. It is something to look at though and use to evaluate somethings.
all of us with vanishers for partners would dream of having a clinging boomerang ;-)
can i give some advice?
all of the things you H has just done are wonderful. You can accept them all and tell him you appreciate all of them without having to dive back into the relationship. Guilt is good because its the beginning of remorse. He has taken a giant leap forward.
cheers
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Interesting article - Funny thing is I received a text today from H telling me he was an idiot and he is getting tired of putting me through hell and he loves me. Only time will tell if that is remorse or guilt. He also asked for forgiveness (something he hasn't done until today). I don't know I am very leery about clinging boomerang activity though. It is something to look at though and use to evaluate somethings.
all of us with vanishers for partners would dream of having a clinging boomerang ;-)
can i give some advice?
all of the things you H has just done are wonderful. You can accept them all and tell him you appreciate all of them without having to dive back into the relationship. Guilt is good because its the beginning of remorse. He has taken a giant leap forward.
cheers
Yeah and it goes on and on and on. He is moving forward and now he told me that none of this is my fault. He Is more like a vanisher at the moment and I grow more when he is out and away to be honest. The issue is that he recognizes what he has done, he now admits that he is the crazy guy and it isn't my fault. He does nothing that I can see to move forward though, who knows maybe it is behind the scenes. I think that true remorse will come though when he no longer does the things he says he is sorry for.
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Very good article on apologies -- somewhere here there was also a post on meaningful vs meaningless apologies.
Gary Chapman, the author of 5 love languages that we often refer to here, has also written a "5 languages of apology" book; he uses the four components of a good apology that are in the article Bewildered posted, and adds a firth -- requesting forgiveness.
His angle is of course a bit different, and he's made it fit his "five" format, but the overall idea is the same. He adds to it that what constitutes an apology to one person is different to another (love language format, again), but also says that "big" things need ALL the langua
His five are: Expressing regret ("I am sorry"), accepting responsibility ("I was wrong"), making restitution ("what can I do to make it right?"), genuinely repenting ("it won't happen again") and requesting forgiveness ("will you please forgive me?").
Of course, forgiveness is in the gift of the other person, and a meaningful apology isn't conditional on the other party forgiving.
And as to the guilt vs remorse thing, well, my H has expressed guilt many, many times, and in between some meaningless apologies once even did say he was sorry for having treated me so badly, but he's nowhere near any remorse, at least not that I can see.
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Interesting article - Funny thing is I received a text today from H telling me he was an idiot and he is getting tired of putting me through hell and he loves me. Only time will tell if that is remorse or guilt. He also asked for forgiveness (something he hasn't done until today). I don't know I am very leery about clinging boomerang activity though. It is something to look at though and use to evaluate somethings.
all of us with vanishers for partners would dream of having a clinging boomerang ;-)
can i give some advice?
all of the things you H has just done are wonderful. You can accept them all and tell him you appreciate all of them without having to dive back into the relationship. Guilt is good because its the beginning of remorse. He has taken a giant leap forward.
cheers
Yeah and it goes on and on and on. He is moving forward and now he told me that none of this is my fault. He Is more like a vanisher at the moment and I grow more when he is out and away to be honest. The issue is that he recognizes what he has done, he now admits that he is the crazy guy and it isn't my fault. He does nothing that I can see to move forward though, who knows maybe it is behind the scenes. I think that true remorse will come though when he no longer does the things he says he is sorry for.
if we look at the unconditionals we wont be expecting him to express remorse before we forgive. forgiving is different to reconciling but i have found acknowledging our responsibility, whatever that maybe be, can help in that reconciliation process.
in other words you can be right or reconciled which ever you prefer.
i know if i wait for my W to apologize and show remorse before forgiving her then it will never happen. so forgiveness it is.
cheers
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I agree BH- but one thing we can't do is ask them to forgive us over and over. I fully understand my part have acknowledged it to him. I have forgiven him on many levels and found great release for doing it. I think that is partly why he now recognizes and wants me to know this isn't my fault. He thought I blamed myself for it all. I let him know I don't and I know my part in the marriage but have nothing to do with his crisis. He has to go through it to be whole as I have to do my journey.
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Fantastic points about forgiveness. It truly is for us, and we need not withhold it from ourselves. After I found out about the OW at BD2, I had a friend call me and say, "Maybe you'll be able to forgive him someday." I told her, "I already did." She really didn't get it. We talked very little after that and haven't spoken in over a year now.
Some people don't get that withholding forgiveness does not give you power or leverage. It gives you pain. It doesn't mean to put yourself in harm's way again, but it does mean that you can start to move on with your life, no matter what the circumstance.
Here's an interesting story I saw the other day about forgiveness in a horrible situation that transformed two lives: http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2013/04/13/from-anger-to-forgiveness-man-befriends-brothers-killer/?hpt=hp_t5
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I agree R2, forgiveness helped release me from becoming an angry bitter person. Besides I know that he is in crisis and to me I equate it to not forgiving my spouse if he had cancer. Would I blame him if he had a more physical illness, hope and he is sick sure it is a mental sickness with possible physical attributes like low-t or low serotonin and other factors but an illness none the less. His cure isn't going to happen with a pill or anything like that but time is healing and that I can give because I need I as well for my healing from the pain he caused prior to BD.
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I also agree. It was possibly 5 minutes after I discovered my wife's affair that I forgave her.
The problem I have is all the rubbish that has followed on since discovery. The lies to me and our children. I don't get angry, I am just amazed.
The extended family who embrace another man even when my daughters and myself independently will not have anything to do with him.
I see that this 'support' for a wayward spouse does not help MLC. They simply feel entitled and though there is regret, ( 'I have not been happy since I met him'), they will not have remorse as they constantly get validation and head patting.
Relatives and friends do more damage after the fact in some cases.
Even my ex-wife now acknowledges (after she divorced me) that most damage is / was done by friends and family. She is not happy, but is saddled with a needy narcissist.
Until they eliminate the poisonous predator there is nothing we can do.
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Until they eliminate the poisonous predator there is nothing we can do.
IMHO the poisonous predator is just one more symptom of them being in crisis.
Until they decide that they are not going to be in crisis there is nothing we can do.
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Yes, I agree.
The predator is only a symptom.
But the MLC is generally targeted by the predator because they are a receptive host for the parasite. Low self esteem, receives compliments and assurances that they are wonderful.
The excitement of an affair makes them feel young again.
I used to tell my wife all the time she was beautiful, but what wife listens to her husbands compliments after 30 years of marriage. ))) No, she would rather believe some slick con man.
Now the con man is all she has. Like strong masking tape or glue (I am being polite), first it sticks to your fingers, then your shoe, then it is all over your house. )))
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It doesn't matter who validates them or doesn't. They will find SOMEBODY, a bum on the street to validate them, if they have to. This is not about friends or family, or anybody... THIS IS ABOUT OUR SPOUSES... our MLC spouse. There is something wrong with them. They are mean, nasty, vindictive, selfish, self promoting, indifferent to anybodies suffering but their own.
If nobody validated what they are doing, they would still be doing this. I can assure you, her friends and family did NOT keep her in this relationship with this OM... she stayed because she wanted to.
As for forgiveness, I'm not sure we REALLY KNOW what that REALLY, TRULY IS... I think many of us THINK/BELIEVE/prefer to think we have forgiven because it makes us feel superior or more mentally stable or some such thing. Forgiveness is complicated and just like MOST things in life... many, many layers.
hugs Stayed
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I do agree with stayed that even if nobody validated them they would still be doing this, but think that they would continually be looking for someone to do that validating. My H is a case in point, he has gone from OW to OW looking for this. And from friend to friend, job to job.
But the MLC is generally targeted by the predator because they are a receptive host for the parasite. Low self esteem, receives compliments and assurances that they are wonderful.
The excitement of an affair makes them feel young again.
And this rings true as well. The original alienator in this case really did target my H, hard. And H even said that she changed from a "caring listening person" (i.e. one who validated his actions) to a harpie -- so on he went to the next. And the next. And yes, I've heard the "I feel like I'm 18 again" bit as well.
And all the while he is running from the guilt, which keeps following him wherever he goes.
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Good point Trustandlove, all of which leads straight back to our bat$hit crazy spouses. Sadly, there are people out there who are just as nutso as our spouses, but I tend to believe that even if there wasn't our spouses would still "discard" us.... this seems to have more to do with INFLICTING pain/discomfort on another, I can only think it is to have SOMEBODY, anybody feel as badly as they are. They definitely know how "connected" we are to them, so we are the OBVIOUS candidates.
Blaming everybody that comes into contact with our spouse, everybody who APPEARS to validate them, won't help our MLCer or us. We have to get past this blame shifting and accept that our spouses had / have a FLAW... a big flaw. It must have always been there, just waiting for the perfect time to present itself.
What we choose to do is our own personal business, but BLAMING others for our spouses behaviour is definitely NOT a solution. I found firmly placing this mess at the feet of my spouse was the only sensible solution, otherwise, I was going to be angry with the world and looking upon every person I know, or meet afresh with skepticism and distrust. It really isn't fair to tar everybody with the same brush. As it is, I look much more CAREFULLY then I did before... not a bad thing, but SAD none the less.
hugs Stayed
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Wow......It just shows. I thought I had it pegged. But you have made me think.
I must read these last half a dozen post again and again.
Thank you Stayed, Trustandlove and OldPilot.
Time for a little rethink. I realise it still is not quite 'in focus' for me, even after all this time.
Great Forum this......... :)
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accept that our spouses had / have a FLAW... a big flaw. It must have always been there, just waiting for the perfect time to present itself.
Oh I agree with this and our FAULT was that we enabled those flaws, swept them under the rug.
So a great place to work is to stop enabling, fixing, pursuing.
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Oh I agree with this and our FAULT was that we enabled those flaws, swept them under the rug.
So a great place to work is to stop enabling, fixing, pursuing.
Now, you have really hit the nail on the head OP... WE DID ALLOW our spouses to be this way.... I bet if we really thought about it, we always let them have their way. We must not allow ANYBODY to take advantage of us. I am suspicious that most of us, have always been capable caring people, who THOUGHT they were being helpful and thoughtful. Sadly, our spouses saw us as an EASY TARGET... who would bend over backwards to please... because we LOVE EVERYBODY to be happy.
Happiness comes easy to us... and we just want everybody to feel as happy as we USUALLY DO! Our mistake! We must learn to leave people to find their own bloody happiness.
I would say our biggest flaw is, we make EXCUSES FOR PEOPLE... which doesn't help anybody, in any way.
hugs Stayed
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I shall chime in here as I'm not so sure if this can be called a "flaw". Rather a pre-condition? Let me share my story and insight into my situation....
I have read a lot on abandonment recovery and since this is a theme for me, I decided to dig deeper. Here's what I found: While pregnant, my birth mother knew she was going to give me up for adoption. She was 18 yrs old and broke with no family support. It is very possible that as I was developing in utero, my brain was being "mapped" to prepare for abandonment. After I was born, I was held by her for 10 minutes, until the nurses realized she wasn't keeping me and they took me away. As an infant, my brain would have responded to this de-attachment and likely panicked. (More mapping) For the first three months, I was in a foster home. Likely my basic needs were met, however that emotional attachment need (which we require as a species) was likely not met. (even more mapping) When I was three months old I was placed into the home that eventually became my family. I attached to my mother very strongly. My father, well that's another story. He is the first emotional abandonment story I actually remember.
SO...how does this relate to me now? I believe that I accept when my emotional needs are not being met. H was very much like my father in that he provided financially (house, food, recreational activities, etc) and for the first part of our relationship DID meet my emotional needs. However, as time went on, my emotional needs were not being met. H became consistently negative and tested my trust in him. He also became critical of what I was providing him (sex, support, understanding, etc.) and that was hard to hear. I thought I was giving him my best. When he wasn't satisfied with that, I tried even HARDER. (I didn't want to be abandoned) It was during these discussions that I also expressed my emotional needs and how they were not being met by him.
Now, here's my insight and why I have been saying I was too complacent. Even though my BASIC NEEDS were being met (echo of my infancy) I settled for that. I tried to have my emotional needs heard and met and when they were not, I ACCEPTED THAT. Why? Because my brain is mapped to settle for such a situation. (another echo of my infancy.....if you can't get ALL your needs met, accept and be grateful that your basic ones are.)
Now this situation does not mean I'm doomed to repeat it over and over again in my future relationships, as I have in my past and most recently with H. I am now more AWARE. This also tells me why my ability to DETACH is so very hard. Make sense? Detaching for a person who's greatest fear is abandonment is a hurdle not easily overcome. My BRAIN fights me on it every step of the way!
My story and insight may not resonate with everyone here. Perhaps not anyone. I just thought I would share in the hopes that maybe someone may share my AHA! moment.
:)
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This also tells me why my ability to DETACH is so very hard. Make sense? Detaching for a person who's greatest fear is abandonment is a hurdle not easily overcome. My BRAIN fights me on it every step of the way!
I think that this is very common for some LBS.
I think we all more than likely have fears of abandonment.
I know that I worked through these issues too.
Might explain more why we are enablers.
Words of Affirmation and Touch as love languages.
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Not sure whether your story resonates with us or not... not sure it really matters. I know I did NOT have your experience and yet I was MORE ACCEPTING then I guess I should have been. I have always pretty much just taken people as they come, in fact, I accept most situations for what they are. I have never felt there was a long explanation for it... to me it was simply a case of where NO PARENT BECOMES A PARENT with the intent to be a $HITTY one. Even your birth mother, felt she was doing you a favour, giving you up for adoption knowing that a man and woman could be the only people that could adopt you. She felt she was giving you PARENTS... a mommy and a daddy.
As you see, nobody can guarantee anything. Look at your son, he is now being raised by his mother (mostly) with input from his daddy. Not quite what you had in mind, did you. Duthla, none of us know how we would have turned out, if our life experiences had been different. That is what life is all about.
The bottom line is, that no matter what you did, or why you did it... the RESULT was the same. Your spouse left you, for another person... just like the rest of us. Making excuses for WHY our spouses has done this, won't make any difference. In fact, I would venture a guess that by making MORE ALLOWANCES for his disgusting behaviour we are in fact VALIDATING the MLCer's sense of entitled.
Dang.... wish OP's comments came before I wrote this... as usual he is right again... I think MOST people are afraid of being abandoned... probably an instinctive fear we are born with.
Hugs... Stayed
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An article I saw that I wanted to share ... As it fitted with this theme and why forgiveness is so difficult -the pain is so all encompassing ?
“The pain you feel today will be the strength you feel tomorrow.” ~Unknown
“How did you get so wise?” My friend’s voice on the other end of the telephone line was genuinely curious.
I took a moment to think, wanting to be just as sincere in my response as she was in her inquiry. I felt the words climb up from the depths of my heart and ride a breath of truth as they passed through my lips.
“I cry a lot,” I finally responded.
Believe me, I wish there was another way. On my personal journey—and there are surely others who walk a similar path—life at times sweeps me up in a wave of utter brokenness, and washes me onto new shores of beautiful transformation, grounded wisdom, and unconditional love.
There is a longstanding slogan in Alcoholics Anonymous that pain is the touch point of all spiritual progress.
Somehow our moments of deep despair and gut-wrenching desperation serve as evolutionary portals to a higher level of grace and resolve. The breakdown itself is the gateway to the breakthrough.
Don’t get me wrong. I do not go chasing after anguish like an adrenaline junkie with a death wish. Just because turmoil shows up as an unexpected guest at my front door that doesn’t mean I graciously invite it in for tea and cookies.
I avoid pain—internal and external—whenever possible. I’ve given birth to two beautiful children and both times I asked for the labor-numbing drugs. If I so much as stub my toe on the bedside table or get into an spat with my husband, I reach for my favorite quilt and a pint of Ben & Jerry’s for comfort.
I have heard there are two types of pain in the world—welcomed and unwelcomed.
Suffering is defined as unwelcomed pain. I am beginning to understand that, like enduring labor, the more I am able to stop resisting pain’s vice-like grip and breathe through the ark—noticing its build, peak, and subsiding—the less of a hold it has on me.
Just like birthing my babies, on the other side of the pain is the promise. Some of life’s greatest gifts come wrapped in sandpaper.
Here are a few of the treasured insights I have received on the other side life’s tribulations. I hope they renew your strength, affirm that you are not alone, and shed a hopeful light on your dark moments.
Pain strengthens you.
In order to build a muscle we lift the weight. But first there is a breaking and bleeding of the capillaries. The healing of the wound is what develops the muscle; injury precedes strength.
Pain refines you.
It takes pressure to make a diamond and fire to purify gold. Nothing cleanses the soul like a good cry. Tears wash away the impurities of fear and attachment and clear the channels for love to freely flow.
Pain lightens the load.
Growing up my mother would often say, “When you are down to nothing, life is up to something.”
Navigating painful moments can feel like squeezing yourself through a tight corridor. There is no room for excess baggage. At the peak of agony I have learned to let go of the “stuff” in my hands—my stories, my fears, my judgments—in order to hold on for dear life.
Pain qualifies you.
Nothing qualifies a person to step up to a big vision for their life like pain. When I count the cost of the rejection and disappointments endured on the journey to living my dreams, it creates a worthiness and grounded resolve that my toughest critics cannot chip away.
Pain connects you.
One tragedy unites people in a far deeper way than a thousand moments of laughter. Falling apart independently and collectively healing has launched powerful, life-changing movements like Mothers Against Drunk Driving (M.A.D.D.). Pain becomes purpose when it is shared.
Like the peaks and falls on a heart monitor, the valley low moments are just as much a confirmation of life as the mountain highs. Lean into pain’s sting. Allow yourself to be placed on its potter’s wheel and transformed into all you can ever hope to be and more.
Remember, life is never happening to you, it is always happening for you. Always.
About Mina Grace Drake
For years, Mina Grace Drake has been helping professional women who are burnt out, unfulfilled, and ready for something more in life to get clear on their options, reconnect with what they’re truly passionate about, and THRIVE in the new work they’re inspired to do. Visit www.catch-a-fire.com.
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Wow. I was just thinking how do you know if they are ever truly sorry. I lost all my friends during the crying phase. No one wanted Debbie Downer and I was mad that they could still be friends with a man who left his family, didn't want to pay bills, and was chasing a 25 year old. He blames me. Said I had to keep talking bad about him and he sat back and they stayed with him. I talked about him because they were friends with him and saw a different story. The "I left my b!tc#y wife because I can't take it anymore" story. And I got the "get over it move on" from them. It kills me that he could hurt me (a human being never mind wife) so easy and not bat an eye.
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I think MOST people are afraid of being abandoned... probably an instinctive fear we are born with.
“The pain you feel today will be the strength you feel tomorrow.” ~Unknown
“I cry a lot,” I finally responded.
Pain strengthens you.
Pain refines you.
It takes pressure to make a diamond and fire to purify gold. Nothing cleanses the soul like a good cry. Tears wash away the impurities of fear and attachment and clear the channels for love to freely flow.
Growing up my mother would often say, “When you are down to nothing, life is up to something.”
Just hit on this this morning and it's just started to join the dots.
Funny how when you are least looking for help - it hits you right between the eyes.
My H is afraid of being abandoned and has said so, several times. His actual words when crying after his mum's death was "why does everyone abandon me?" So he chooses to abandon his family and values - crazy!
Re the pain - I have been getting cross with myself for getting so tearful lately - part of the cycling process, I know but every day?? I must see it as part of my growing not a weakness and therefore it's part of making me feel better and less victim like.
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Re the pain - I have been getting cross with myself for getting so tearful lately - part of the cycling process, I know but every day?? I must see it as part of my growing not a weakness and therefore it's part of making me feel better and less victim like.
Absolutely Songanddance, it is not a weakness. I swear, the Shahara Desert would be green now, if I could have done my crying there... accept they are salty aren't the... ??? OH well, you get what I am trying to say... hehehe. No shame in crying. Tears purify!
hugs... Stayed
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Going to back to the powerful post at the start of all this and the difference between Guilt and Remorse...
This is becoming very significant for me now, even though my H is still in Early Replay. Why? Because instead of hanging on to hope, hope, hope all the time, and looking for every possible sign that things are going to be restored, it's getting me to start standing back a little (ha! some of RCR's counselling has just pinged into my mind; she said, try Standing at a distance...) and take a look a the bigger picture here.
What if bugger-lugs does decide to return, eventually? What am I going to do? Am I ready for that day? I'm getting ready on the 'charging neutral' front as I'm much less emotionally driven than I was, and my shattered self-e is starting to heal, but what will i say if he wants to come back?
And I realise the litmus test of whether a return is even possible, in that particular moment, is his mental state at the time. And unless he's in liminality/overt depression, then none of the vital work of alchemy has been done by this crazy process. Implosion = Chance at rebirth. Tears must be seen. (Stayed's ref to her husband's sobbing through the night, and other stories I've heard, away from this site, about MLC-ers crying like babies, tell me also that this is true.
The tears are just the beginning, of course. But they're essential. Just as they were for many of us, to start healing.
UKS
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I don't quite know if what I'm feeling from my sister now is her own lack of true remorse for her affair with her BIL (her H's younger brother) over 10 years ago. It lasted for 18 mths and as far as I know neither she nor her H did any counselling or anything afterwards. They stayed together but that's it.
I've posted before about earlier comments from my sister and BIL regarding how it is both our fault that H left etc. Last week, she phoned me to let me know her D (21 yrs old) was crying at my place because we hadn't left yet to go with my kids to the snow. Its a lengthy and complicated story but while we were talking she also says, "sorry to be blunt, but there are heaps of single parents these days" and "I don't know what your life is like" and "I don't know why your H can't do the driving to sports activities etc These were all in response to my explaining that I AM a busy person as I am doing the job of both parents. I also brought up the comment she made at Christmas about how I didn't have it as bad as her H's mum when her H passed away because she had 7 children and I only had 4. Mind you, most of her kids were adults.
I have sensed her distinct lack of any emotional support for me from the beginning. She will do the odd practical thing and talk to the kids but brushes me off any time I try to explain what has happened etc.
I am now wondering if in her mind she is trying to make it MY fault for H leaving because if she didn't that would put guilt and blame onto the betraying spouse which she once was. Whilst she openly acknowledges what he did was wrong, she has not acknowledged it was an issue within herself not the hurt it may have caused those she betrayed. She says it was because her H didn't give her the attention she wanted and was grumpy when he returned from a week away for work. I am wondering if she is truly sorry?? I think she's sorry that it happened but I don't think she's sorry because of why it happened and I don't think she wants to acknowledge my pain and daily struggles because that would mean she's need to acknowledge the pain she caused others by what she did.
There just always seems to be a brick wall with her where I CANNOT discuss and explain what has happened with H. She expects him to behave like a rational man and be an equal parent with me and I should therefore not have to ever ask her for help.
Any thoughts???
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Stillpraying,
I think it's hard for many people to acknowledge the bad qualities in others as also belonging to themselves. I have a friend that is absolutely going through a MLC herself right now. Last summer she got a "tummy tuck" and a hair piece. In the fall she left her H of 20+ years. She met a guy on a dating site and hopped in his truck on the first day they met, had relations with him within 1-3 days and moved in with him on the 3rd day. She's also changing jobs now. I should add that she went through her "religious spell" during the winter. I guess she gets a check mark for all 4 pillars:)
Many times throughout this she has pointed out the horrible things that my runaway has done but then qualifies everything that she has done as different and that her marriage was bad for the past 5, 10...oh wait...now it's been bad since before it even happened.
I suspect that your sister is probably along those same lines. She probably doesn't talk about it at all either out of shame. IF they never did any counseling or anything afterwards the problem will probably be repeating itself.
J.
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UKS - thanks for that little gem of info c/o RCR - Stand at a distance.
I'm in very early days and trying hard to detach but that little gem has just pulled me out of my current low after H being so yuck today!
That's what I have to do as a teacher when students are angry/upset etc... is stand at a distance and just look at the situation logically.
I am hoping and that is ok in principle and my hope makes me over analyse....
The tears I know are part of my healing but now that phrase is going onto my self help tapes !!
THANK YOU
(ps love the buggalugs reference)
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Wow. I was just thinking how do you know if they are ever truly sorry. I lost all my friends during the crying phase. No one wanted Debbie Downer and I was mad that they could still be friends with a man who left his family, didn't want to pay bills, and was chasing a 25 year old. He blames me. Said I had to keep talking bad about him and he sat back and they stayed with him. I talked about him because they were friends with him and saw a different story. The "I left my b*tchy wife because I can't take it anymore" story. And I got the "get over it move on" from them. It kills me that he could hurt me (a human being never mind wife) so easy and not bat an eye.
I have the same experience. Either directly or indirectly people are showing me that they don't want to know or that H had a reason to leave. My counsellor says it's fear it could happen to them ie if there was no reason in our marriage for H to leave then it could happen to anyone. they need a reason so they can point a finger and say "well we don't behave like that so it won't happen to us".
Sometimes I feel as though those around me also feel 'guilt' rather than 'remorse' or empathy for what has happened to our family. they just don't want to 'go there' and walk beside me for a time. I feel very alone and this is truly that hardest part and the most eye opening for me. Where I expected close friends and family to emotionally support me, they have kept their distance. That's Ok, it's their choice but when the tell me 'how to live my life as a betrayed, abandoned single parent of 4 young children with a monster for a H- ( "move on", "learn time management", "don't do so much" etc etc) but don't offer to help, then I get upset.
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I totally get what Stayed is saying..... I have heard a lot of SINCERE "I'm sorry" talk.... it is sincere... but it has LITTLE to do with ME, and EVERYTHING to do with HIM.... he is SORRY that hurting me makes him feel so guilty, because he LOVES me and hates that he is hurting me.... BUT..... and then here comes the blame..... that is NOT reconciling!!!
Wow, this is so true, he is sorry that all this happened, but he is not yet ready for reconciliation, my husband has said these exact same words to me but something about them rang false, now I know its because he is feeling guilt and not yet ready for the remorse stage. Thanks for stating this so clearly!!
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Sadly Joy1025 , the remorse is all for himself... until it is about what he did to you and your kids...his I'M SORRY'S mean nothing!
Lettinggo is right. hugs Stayed
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Stayed can you start a new guilt vs remorse thread?
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As requested by OP... here is the new thread.
Quilt vs Remorse #2
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=3867.0