OP-You had asked me why it was so bad in the other Man Cave thread that I think my d is spending too much time with bf.So really the issue is about contraception?
I just don't want history to repeat. My w never lived for herself (she got pregnant at 18, and has been in a relationship ever since, first with xh, and then me). I want my d to experience being single, and get to know herself. I know there is plenty of time for that, but at LEAST date a few different boys to gain r experience (something I lacked). But what really worries me, is she doesn't do ANYTHING with her "girl" friends. An example: D16 and her bf broke up for about 30 seconds (exaggerating...it was a day or two at most). She had made plans to go hang out with this friend or that friend. I was really happy for her. She then got back together with her bf, and cancelled the plans she had made with her girls friends. I had a talk and told her you don't do things like that, and she said "well, Melissa was going to be with her boyfriend anyway, so I was just going to be a third wheel anyway."
She's a smart girl-She conveniently always knows what to say...Hmmmmmm
-T
Looks like the man cave was well received! What a shame the we have lost Elray, Darth and rugged... All of these men brought so much to the table and I learned so much from them. If any of u happen to be checking in I sincerely thank you for sharing your wisdom. We lost some good men... Hopefully we can share some wisdom with any newbies to pay it forward.
It's been interesting to me that when us men have a place of our own we most talk about our children and how we can be the best fathers we can be. I'm impressed fellas... As much as we focus on our MLCers in our own thread it appears our children really are what matters most.
Stayed , love ya to bits but eh , gee thanks a lot.I didnt read that at all
So we can't be crude rude and vulgar and once again we're getting permission from women to speak openly
Some anger is healthy, very healthy. In fact no anger, I do not think is a good sign at all. It's just not natural to me. Plus I truly believe that anger can, if watched closely, push us through to the next stage. I'm just not sure how much anger is too much. I will watch this thread and hopefully figure that out.
What a shame the we have lost Elray, Darth and rugged...Again FTR them leaving has nothing to do with this thread.
I wanted to thank them all in a place I thought they might look from time to time.Sounds like you just did, I am sure they have read it.
So really the issue is about contraception?Actually contraception isn't the issue. We have had the talk (uncomfortable has hell LOL)-also we were all open about sexuality before the family split up.
...
I do not want her to wrap her life around ONE person, and lose herself.Well whats the alternative?
Quote from: terrified_in_TN link=topic=6104.msg393672#msg393672I do not want her to wrap her life around ONE person, and lose herself.Well whats the alternative?
I think what you are concerned about is the LOSING herself.
Men and women are suppose to be together.
That is more biology.
TT are you losing yourself?
Is this projection on your daughter?
I think you need to show by your actions the proper thing for her.
Girls mirror the best traits of their DADS when picking a mate.
And look for the OPPOSITE of the worst traits.
So what do your actions show your daughter?
Wow you are blunt, aren't you LOL?WOW and here I thought this was the MAN CAVE :) :) :)
Hawk, there have always been rules about rudeness, cussing, name calling and stuff like that. We watch all of the threads for overly aggressive behavior. When we see a member becoming worked up, their anger and bitterness obviously taking them over, we gently try to lead them out of it. Sometimes we have had to become quite assertive and warn them that their ANGER AND BITTERNESS is beginning to take them over and will eventually destroy them.
With women, we know that if we control the depth of their anger, we often prevent an increase in resentment, when we prevent resentment we save them from bitterness. Bitterness is a real killer. I came so close to going down that road and when I remember it, I see darkness and "COLD"!
I am not as familiar with men. I'm not as confident about trying to rein in your anger and bitterness, as I not completely convinced that expressing, feeling and enacting those feelings, is something men need to do, more then women.
But anyway and l do mean no offense to the good intentions of you guys and the thought/idea is very much appreciated and l do really enjoy knowing the women through the forum to but what's wrong with wanting a place we can truly call our man cave and truly talk anyway we damn well please and any subject. But we may as well scrap the title or else put a paddock on the place like l suggested though, unfortunately men still won't speak freely here as it's as many women as men and just too much bs to bother unfortunately.
It is this fundamental difference (emotions versus logic), in my opinion, as to why there are less standing husbands, or we "give up" standing. We look at it from a logical / logistical view. we check off our list (just a short list example of the big ticket items):
- Made changes she complained about - check! (I didn't really get any specific complaints...just she wasn't "Happy")
- Tried talking to her (usually from logic) - check! (YES, YES, AND YES!!!)
- Am I trying to show her I do love her and care, but no results? - Check! (YES!)
- Attempted therapy - check! (No, but she suggested it once; I knew it was "for show"-she had already checked out)
- Am I still supporting her financially / materially, but she is giving nothing back in return - check! (YES!)
- She cheated on me - check! <------------------- generally a deal breaker with all but the most caring men!!! (Not a deal breaker for me-I am different in this regard-its just sex, its carnal-and she is approaching the menopause years)
Conclusion: I did everything I could; didn't work; time to move on. From this point, cut all emotional ties, it's a business deal, done! Yea, I know, it's MLC, you can't fix it. No kidding....I can't fix it.....logical & logistical answer, move on and don't waste the next 5-7 years of your life & resources!
YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
It is this fundamental difference (emotions versus logic), in my opinion, as to why there are less standing husbands, or we "give up" standing. We look at it from a logical / logistical view. we check off our list (just a short list example of the big ticket items):POOR LOGIC!
- Made changes she complained about - check!
- Tried talking to her (usually from logic) - check!
- Am I trying to show her I do love her and care, but no results? - Check!
- Attempted therapy - check!
- Am I still supporting her financially / materially, but she is giving nothing back in return - check!
- She cheated on me - check! <------------------- generally a deal breaker with all but the most caring men!!!
Conclusion: I did everything I could; didn't work; time to move on. From this point, cut all emotional ties, it's a business deal, done! Yea, I know, it's MLC, you can't fix it. No kidding....I can't fix it.....logical & logistical answer, move on and don't waste the next 5-7 years of your life & resources!
It is this fundamental difference (emotions versus logic), in my opinion, as to why there are less standing husbands, or we "give up" standing. We look at it from a logical / logistical view. we check off our list (just a short list example of the big ticket items):POOR LOGIC!
- Made changes she complained about - check!
- Tried talking to her (usually from logic) - check!
- Am I trying to show her I do love her and care, but no results? - Check!
- Attempted therapy - check!
- Am I still supporting her financially / materially, but she is giving nothing back in return - check!
- She cheated on me - check! <------------------- generally a deal breaker with all but the most caring men!!!
Conclusion: I did everything I could; didn't work; time to move on. From this point, cut all emotional ties, it's a business deal, done! Yea, I know, it's MLC, you can't fix it. No kidding....I can't fix it.....logical & logistical answer, move on and don't waste the next 5-7 years of your life & resources!
You didnt even read what MLC was all about.
It was not about YOU, it was about HER!
So you did not do everything you could
You tried to FIX and did not LET GO.
YOU NEED TO FIX YOURSELF or never have another relationship again,
since it will be doomed to FAIL also.
OP,So how do we turn this into a positive?
You misunderstood my post!
It was a crude example showing pure logic! Not saying this was the complete thought process any of us went through! This is just demonstrating what I believe is the process many males go through that DON'T try to read or understand! In my opinion, the men that are here did try to do a lot more; they did / do try to understand! I have learned a lot about myself from this site and others and I have seen my own shortcomings and still working on some.
But many don't; they follow a logical process in my example scenario. That's why, in my opinion, there are way fewer male standers. The men here are the exception!
You are right; people do need to "fix" themselves first before moving on; It's sound advice won't argue that point!
I totally understand that MLC seems to have no logic however the more I have studied it
learned about it, disected it, then I found out it is completly logical.
You just have to be able to drink coffee sitting on the ceiling, using a fork and then the logic is simple.
OP,First of all Welcome Back RE.
This probably isn't my place anymore. Meaning? I shouldn't jump back into this.
I have been stalking the site......... My first impressions of the "man cave?" It was generic and
"safe" for anybody that might be reading.......
I became somewhat encouraged by Hatter's post. I felt that he was making a case for the men on this site. He was pointing out some fundamental differences and.......... unlike you OP. I read the entire post.
I agree in that we must move on and "EVOLVE" if we are going to finish our lives with our MLCer or any other person in our lives. We cannot remain the same as we were, if we expect things to be any different next time around.
That being said. What I read in Hatter's post was a man's point of view and man's way of dealing with a subject. We are rational and logical.
That! Has been my biggest struggle with all of this. When things become irrational? When I feel that I am under attack?
I am genuinely pi$$ed............
When I imagine my xw spreading her legs for another man?
I go into a rage..................
That being said..... I allowed myself to do that. And...... It was necessary at the time.
LOGICAL THOUGHT PROCESS!!!!!!!!
Any machine that holds pressure is designed with a "pressure relief" valve in it. When it gets too high? When more pressure will damage a precious machine?
Wa la! The valve let's the pressure off! The machine remains intact.
The big question I have is this?
If a man cannot let off his steam in print? If a man cannot find someplace to be a man?
Where does this steam go?
If we look at this logically?
My xw is in crisis because she stuffed a precious little girl into the pit of her being. My xw actually hates the little girl inside of herself. I know this for a fact.
In the case of my xw? The little girl inside of herself is now, clawing her way out. Before it is too late.
Wouldn't it have been much more productive if my xw would have let the little girl have her say when the abuse happened? Wouldn't she have been justified in destroying all of the $hit around her at the injustice of it all? AT THE TIME IT WAS TAKING PLACE?
Or is it better for people. Male or female to repress the emotions we have? Become some kind of magically whole person. When in reality we are ignoring actual emotions? Emotions that are justified by the circumstances?
And. If we deal with them now? Wouldn't it be healthier than suppressing it and insuring that these emotions stay with us?
It is exactly this kind of "cherry picking" the posts that caused me to leave this site.
We can embrace men for who they are. Or we can use all of our energy trying to turn them into something "safe." Something that makes us feel better about ourselves.
AS. I've invited myself in....... I will let you all know what I am up to.
I am standing. I have allowed myself to rage at my xw, God, MLC, the world in general.
I feel that I've purged myself of the very emotions that will destroy any chance of a reconnection.
I've gotten rid of the emotions and have been able to look at my xw with new eyes. Honest eyes.
I have to make peace with everything that has happened. I have to allow myself to process as it presents itself to me.
At this point in my journey. My focus is on a little girl that was abused. A little girl that has destroyed a 30yr relationship because she is not going to be silent any longer.
When the little girl has her say? My xw is going to need a healthy dose of unconditional love and compassion.
Logically? The little girl has been silent long enough.
...
It was not about YOU, it was about HER!
...
YOU NEED TO FIX YOURSELF or never have another relationship again,
since it will be doomed to FAIL also.
Op and mad, here is my thought process as I am planning on ending my standing next month after "only" 7 months... I agree with the process mad describes. I also know this is not about me, it's about her. I have worked on myself and continue to do so. One of the many things I learned how to set boundaries for myself. My w always looked at my boundaries as trying to control her, wrong, they were for me. She chose to comply and now blames me for being controling. My counselor has pointed out that during our separation my w has struggled with setting boundaries for herself while I have not. So yes, this crisis is about her but it's ok for me to say "my w sleeping around, gettin piss drunk and being a poor example of a mother is NOT ok with me." I dont want to be married to the person she currently is. That is for me, not her. If she ever gets out of this phase I would consider reconciliation. I am not going to live my life waiting for that to happen. It is hard for me to truly focus on myself while being married to w as she is now. There are also financial concerns but they are not the driving force behind my decision.
...
It was not about YOU, it was about HER!
...
YOU NEED TO FIX YOURSELF or never have another relationship again,
since it will be doomed to FAIL also.
Sorry, I have a problem with this. If its about HER, why do we need to "fix" us???? The logic doesn't work.
I am NOT saying I am perfect, not by any stretch. We ALL can do things to improve ourselves whether we are an MLCer, LBSer, or a happily married person who is lucky enough to never having gone through this. There is ALWAYS room for self improvement. But you can't say "its not your fault, you did nothing to cause this" out of one side of the mouth and say "you need to fix yourself" out of the other.
I STILL have not got that part since day 1.
-T
Because we are the only ones that we can control,
Sorry, I have a problem with this. If its about HER, why do we need to "fix" us???? The logic doesn't work.
I am NOT saying I am perfect, not by any stretch. We ALL can do things to improve ourselves whether we are an MLCer, LBSer, or a happily married person who is lucky enough to never having gone through this. There is ALWAYS room for self improvement. But you can't say "its not your fault, you did nothing to cause this" out of one side of the mouth and say "you need to fix yourself" out of the other.
I STILL have not got that part since day 1.
-T
For once in my life, I LIKE ME. I am a good person. What I am not: Perfect. If you expect perfect to have a successful r, move on, I am not your guy. If you want an honest caring person who won't stray, and will not run away when things get tough (within reason, I am not putting up with this MLC bs again-life is too short), them I am your man.
Its great that you feel good about yourself again. I feel better about myself than I have in years. Its not about being perfect, IMO its about discovering your self esteem again and knowing you deserve better than what your MLCer is trying to put you through. At least thats how i see it.
Terrified, if you believe the saying "broken attracts broken" than it is worth understanding why you were drawn to a woman that ws broken.
This is where most men differ from women; when we have had enough and it is time to draw the line, we cut out the emotions and use an almost complete logical process. We won't wait around and for the most part, once we make a decision, it's a done deal!I believe most of the men and women on this site that are standing follow a very logical thought process that allows them to view the MLC as a process their spouse is going through that is about their spouse and is not about them. They are able to rationally accept that their spouse will be out of control for a while and may not ever return because that's what happens when somebody goes through an MLC. And they are able to make the logical decision to accept that because they love their spouse.
This is where most men differ from women; when we have had enough and it is time to draw the line, we cut out the emotions and use an almost complete logical process. We won't wait around and for the most part, once we make a decision, it's a done deal!
I'm sure MH will chime back in, but I think he was referring more to the LBS male spouse. Once we have had enough of the BS, WE turn off that emotional switch, and is pretty much a done deal.
This is where most men differ from women; when we have had enough and it is time to draw the line, we cut out the emotions and use an almost complete logical process. We won't wait around and for the most part, once we make a decision, it's a done deal!
So, if our MLCer has said he is done, not coming back, not going to beg to return, is it truly a done deal?...
Expanding on my above comment a little further...
We are obviously all different, but I see a lot of similar traits between us LBS guys: We forgive a LOT. More than a typical person. We have high hopes our spouses will come to their senses quickly. We have enormous amounts of patience. HOWEVER...once that line FINALLY gets crossed-there is no going back. The emotions get turned off, and we become DONE, in most cases FOR LIFE. I don't know if you call it anger, or indifference, but for ME (and I suspect a lot of the guys as well), when we become DONE, not only is r not possible, but not even a friendship. We choose to ignore the MLCer/exMLCer for life for the sheer reminder of the painful memories. Friendship is generally not even an option. We don't HATE our spouses, we just choose to not have anything to do with them.
You do hear of those divorces where couples just come to the realization they are not "compatible" and split up, yet have the capability of remaining "good friends". I think in *most* cases, with male LBSers and MLC spouses, that is not an option.
I could be wrong. YMMV. These are just MY opinions.
-T
It's true that generally speaking I don't want much to do with W but honestly, the main reason is because of hurt. I think the closer I come to being happy and content with my own life, the less it hurts.Honestly MeNow, that does sound soooooo good. I just don't think I am built like that, and don't think I will ever be; no amount of "self help" is going to change that about me.
I'd like to get to a point where I could be happy for her and could even be friends (maybe)... That would tell me I'm over her and she cannot hurt me anymore. I don't want it affecting my life forever.
I don't want it affecting my life forever.
Why the need to be friends? Let me put it this way... If a guy friend slpet with your wife behind your back would you want to eveuntally be his friend again? I know bro code but seriously, our spouses owed us waaaaaaayyyy more than that. Just like we owed it to them... Lets take it a step further to eliminate the "this is different, its MLC" stuff. What if your guy friend in that scenario were in mlc and slept with your wife??? Does he get a pass then?
I still struggle with the "better or worse, till death" part of my vows and the decision to put some boundaries in place soon with my w that will likely result in me ending my marriage. So part of this is just me venting and trying to process my anger. I'm right at the cusp of where TT is:
"But the need to blow to hell our entire lives is something I can never ignore. Finances ruined: Check. Family torn apart and choosing sides: Check. Nasty Divorce: Check Being mean as hell when I have been NOTHING but nice our entire r: Check.
Bottom line: Check MATE, and I am DONE. She now has the privilege of joining that very very few select group of people in my life that "crossed that line", which is VERY HARD to accomplish with me"
I couldnt say it better so I'm borrowing... Except we havent started divorce yet.
You're all special guys. That's for sure. Your wives would be lucky to have you back in their lives. You love them and understand more than most men. You understand that something is wrong other than them just running off or cheating.
I went through a Mlc when I was 36/38. It started before that I believe as depression,then a whole bunch of things happened. I think my brain just got overloaded and said enough! I had no idea what was wrong with me. I just know I hated every one.
I had a brief affair and the h found out. At first he was all over me wanting to fix things and then the depression and anger hit. He wasn't like any of you. He started being a complete @$$. Drinking heavy,staying at the bar all hours everyday and started hanging with chicks the same age as our daughter. We separated and he slept with one of the bar who res. It did not make things better.
So your wives are very lucky to have men who choose to be the way you are. Running off to someone else doesn't fix anything. It causes way to much more trouble for the future.
Okay, here's the million dollar question - Is it possible that the way your H handled things (being an ass, bar-hopping, sleeping with the bar chick) possibly what drew you back to him? Would you have been less likely to return had he stood for the marriage like most of us have? I'm going back to my "bad boy" theory here.......
"Sorry to inject yet again, but it's not really bad or good, it's confidence, a strutt, a look, unfortunately those things often come along with the "bad boys"."
...it's basically what you are seeing when a woman waffles between two different guys that are polar opposites. she will be attracted to the "bad boy" sexually, but because he is "emotionally unavailable" or using her, she will tire of this and seek out the "beta" guy that is in the FriendZone. She is not sexually attracted to the beta, but he gives her the emotional needs and support she desires. When she has had her fill and tires of Mr. Beta, because he doesn't have those "masculine alpha qualities" she desires, she seeks out another Mr. Alpha to get her sexual needs satisfied.As hard as it is to hear, I think MH hit the nail on the head. The "waffling" I saw as well. I think you can also call it "cake eating" ;D I am a "beta". And she left me for an "alpha". As she approaches the menopause years, I imagine her hormones have kicked into overdrive for the desire to "reproduce" while there is still some time left. (However she cannot have any more children).
...
...she cultivated new friends that only know her version of me... IE her projections of herself on me!! Very frustrating. The well meaning "friends" help destroy famalies because they want to get our spouses out of pain the quickest way they see possible. U r right, they never think to look within.Ironically enough, my wife's "friend" was also a friend of HERS, not a mutual friend. But at our age, aren't we all supposed to know by now happiness comes from within? Why in the world someone our age would essentially give the advice to leave a marriage because of "not being happy" is beyond me.
-EDIT- Interesting....VERY interesting MH. I had to google "hypergamy" because I didn't know what it meant. I am an alpaha compared to OM when it comes to hypergamy, but a BETA when it comes to sheer "rugedness". He is tall, dark, handsome, young, all tatted up. I am an average plain looking conservative type.
He is a good guy, and a great provider [exact quote of what my w used to say about me] but I'm just not happy: Leave Him! WTF?Same thing I got from my wife. My wife was clinically depressed when her sister (who I've known for 36 years) told her that if she wasn't happy she had the right to find someone who would make her happy. Same sister who hasn't been happy with her husband for years but hasn't done anything about it. Same sister who gave me a big hug at the Christmas party because I gave her a cheese basket.
-EDIT- Interesting....VERY interesting MH. I had to google "hypergamy" because I didn't know what it meant. I am an alpaha compared to OM when it comes to hypergamy, but a BETA when it comes to sheer "rugedness". He is tall, dark, handsome, young, all tatted up. I am an average plain looking conservative type.
Hypergamy isn't just financial......there are social forms of hypergamy......she's basically "bored" and wants some excitement. Maybe her current mate is introverted......she craves a social butterfly.
Any perceived improvement in finacial and/or social status!
I don't know if any of them are actually out looking for anyone particular. I wasn't out looking for anyone. I was in this horrible place. I felt bad about everything in my life and the OM was someone I worked with. It was very unexpected when he started flirting. I was very dumb. He was also seven years younger. What would someone want me for? I was 38, married and had four kids. I'm no prize. Just the average housewife. I still to this day don't know what he found so attractive. I wasn't going around flirting and was very quiet and kept to myself. That flirting though hit at the right time I guess. It felt good but wrong. It was like an addiction. He was the aggressor. I've also thought of him as a predator.RB, thanks for posting this. Change the age from 38 to 52 and the number of kids from 4 to 2 and I believe my wife could have written this. I hope the day will soon come when she will look back at this like you are now. I believe you are tight about him being a predator and I feel the same way about my wife's OM. How did you manage to break free from him?
Short lived A. Maybe a couple months. He ended it but I acted like all the rest here. It's all a pattern. The cravings wore off eventually too. Once I started fixing myself I realized what I did too. Once everything was spinning out of control.
Reality CAN snap you out of it.So just remember that. You have to want to fix yourself too or it just goes on.
She's not sure now? Mine never wavered, although she would go months without bringing it up or making any movement on it. To this day I have yet to hear one word of regret or second-guessing herself on whether or not she made the best decision of her life. She sometimes even recites the mantra "I'm the happiest I've ever been" like a brain-dead zombie even still........Same XW here.
As discussed in the past it seems men "give up" on their MLCer quicker than women. I can feel my logical brain going through the process mad hatter listed in a previous post... I feel the need for movement in my situation. Bein only 7 mo post bd I know it's early. She lives alone and there is no affair partner anymore though I suspect she may be sleeping around. So my question to is how do you guys keep your ego in check?? Mine got the best of me the other day and I actually called her and said I was ready to file for divorce is she was 100% sure that's what she wanted. Low and behold after months of threatening it now she's not sure?!? For those of you gentlemen that did initiate your divorce did you still love your wife at that time?
For those of you gentlemen that did initiate your divorce did you still love your wife at that time?Yes I did still love my W at the time. It was agony. Several years later and I can say without any doubt that divorcing was the right course of action. Life is no longer agony, life is much better.
Rugged,AMEN
I could have wrote much of what you did, everything from her being bat$hit crazy at BD to things not turning out at all like she probably expected. Funny how the real world works like that, isn't it? As I look back I'm actually glad the D happened in a way as I'm much more financially stable
Rugged,AMEN
I could have wrote much of what you did, everything from her being bat$hit crazy at BD to things not turning out at all like she probably expected. Funny how the real world works like that, isn't it? As I look back I'm actually glad the D happened in a way as I'm much more financially stable
Same for me!.
I am also glad that I let her do all the work and I can look my children in the face and say I did nothing to help out this divorce.
She wanted it and she got it.
It cost a lot of money to try to stop it and that was totally unsuccessful.
I can live with that, although maybe it is not the best advice,
and I should have LET GO faster, and saved more $$$$$.
In the end we all do what we feel is the best thing!
I'm sure MH will chime back in, but I think he was referring more to the LBS male spouse. Once we have had enough of the BS, WE turn off that emotional switch, and is pretty much a done deal.
This is where most men differ from women; when we have had enough and it is time to draw the line, we cut out the emotions and use an almost complete logical process. We won't wait around and for the most part, once we make a decision, it's a done deal!
So, if our MLCer has said he is done, not coming back, not going to beg to return, is it truly a done deal?...
I think my w is looking for a weak person she can control. The people I know of that she has been spotted with are neither socially or economically upgrades nor could they possibly be perceived as such. I am "rugged" and in touch with my "bad" side. I think mine has gone the opposite and is looking for some little b!txh boy she can control and manipulate. She knows better than to bring any of them anywhere there is even a remote possibility of running into me.
Yes, my wife is bpd. Now that I understand what that means the last 19 years of my life make a lot more sense. So there is that to contend with as well. Therapist has also talked about taking her off anti depressants and switching to a mood stabalizer like lithium.
Dj,
I have a strong suspicion the xw is bp also.............
If this is true? It would explain a lot of the marriage I had with her.
What the he!!? If MLC isn't bad enough?
Add yet another pepper to the nuclear chili.
Yes, my wife is bpd. Now that I understand what that means the last 19 years of my life make a lot more sense. So there is that to contend with as well. Therapist has also talked about taking her off anti depressants and switching to a mood stabalizer like lithium.Dj,
I have a strong suspicion the xw is bp also.............
If this is true? It would explain a lot of the marriage I had with her.
What the he!!? If MLC isn't bad enough?
Add yet another pepper to the nuclear chili.
I know many here will probably not agree with me on this, but I think the community "over-diagnoses" people with "MLC". As much as I have read here about these "MLCers" having either symptoms of or confirmed diagnosis of BPD's, narcissism & depressions, it wouldn't surprise me if what we are seeing is actually the long-term affects of these conditions coming to a head rather than just a FOO flip-out!
Patience - Believe none of what you hear and half of what you see. Actually even less of what you see, maybe 10-20%. My XW took a few books and some DVDs along with about a week's worth of clothes when she left. College kids take more to the dorms when they go away for the semester. In fact, she's even brought back (snuck in even) some of the DVDs along with a couple things she bought AFTER moving out. It's all crazy bizarre, and if I didn't see most of it with my own eyes I would never believe it. I know for a fact that if it was me who wanted out of the marriage I damn sure would have taken as much as I possibly could, if for no other reason than to keep the next person from getting my stuff.
From my observation, I would estimate that 80 percent of the people who attend my divorce recovery classes suffer from a mental illness or disorder, or have dealt with a partner with one or more mental health conditions.So how many people are mentally ill in the US(diagnosed and undiagnosed) and married?
The challenges of being married to a person with a mental illness or disorder are often made considerably worse during the divorce process, and an individual with a mental health challenge will see their symptoms worsen during divorce.
Four out of every ten people at work or sitting in the doctor’s waiting room suffer from moderate to severe depression.
http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2011/04/depression-continues-undiagnosed-untreated-primary-care.html
49 percent of Americans are estimated to have undiagnosed depression. -
http://silverstreakonline.com/the-world-around-us/2012/05/11/report-nearly-half-of-all-americans-have-undiagnosed-depression/#sthash.4XuU6dTS.dpuf
I realize I'm getting off track of men's issues but my last post related to the idea that it's not always "mlc" but the other issues that cause the behaviors we associate with mlc.
I realize I'm getting off track of men's issues but my last post related to the idea that it's not always "mlc" but the other issues that cause the behaviors we associate with mlc.
Agree we kind of got off track in here and de-railed a bit. Would like to go back to a couple of hot issues in the original thread that got the man cave started. For discussion (whether mlc or just a marriage issue)
1) what long term issues did you deal with as a man in relarion to spouse / ex-spouse? Example: we talked about how we felt the woman always tried to control the dialouge.....think things along this line.
2) For those that have decided to start dating and dipped there toe in the waters; what are you seeing? Whats the good, bad and ugly out there compared to what it use to be and what you were expecting, versus what it is in reality?
3) if you were to decide to give a serious LTR or marriage another shot, what are you looking for in a partner; what requirements must be met? What will you give on versus what you must have?
Guys, dont be bashful or pull punches here! The ladies said they want to see how we think, so be honest! If you have minimum criteria on profession, temperament, looks.....let it hang out On what they need to bring to the table!
8)
" I just checked the site and found I had a visitor. 54years old, just left a 23 year marriage, looking for her soulmate, lost 70 lbs. in the last year, likes all music including rap as she listens to it when she hangs out with her son. :o :o :o"
I'm kind of picky too, but not unreasonable......dont smoke, dont nag, have a hobby or two of your own, sense of humor, fitness concious; stay reasonably in shape and maintain yourself.Well written, I agree with all of this, especially the commitment to living a healthy lifestyle.
Now those last two are subjective and a lot of women reading may take offense. Most guys dont expect a beauty queen and if youve had kids we get it. Just stay in shape according to your frame size and height and exercise regularly. Its not just looks, its a general health thing that a lot of people dont get! And for begeezuz sake, dont go out in public in your jammies, jacked up hair looking like youve just got out of bed and been sleeping for 3 days like them walmart people!
Well written, I agree with all of this, especially the commitment to living a healthy lifestyle.
I was really happy with my wife's newfound desire to eat and dress better during the year or so prior to BD. Of course, now I wish it had been for a different reason.
Agree with you guys. I also was impressed with XW's commitment to looks and health the months before BD. I was so proud I even showed my supervisor a recent pic of her a couple months before BD. His reaction? "Uh-oh." I didn't understand then. I do now.
Agree with you guys. I also was impressed with XW's commitment to looks and health the months before BD. I was so proud I even showed my supervisor a recent pic of her a couple months before BD. His reaction? "Uh-oh." I didn't understand then. I do now.
Hadn't thought about it that way, BH, but yeah. XW had multiple diets over the years that lasted about a week or two and usually resulted in her getting grumpy and hateful, then going back to nice after she fell off the wagon. That time though she stayed nice until a month before the end. I do sometimes wonder if things would have been different had I jumped on the fitness bandwagon with her, but it likely wouldn't have mattered.
And as far as dating goes, I've had a few lunch dates with a fairly attractive co-worker recently but have no inclination to go any further. Theres so much of my life she would never know, and so many of my late loved ones she will never meet, that I just don't think she would ever get to truly know or understand me. XW and I shared so many memories and so many years together that we got to know very many of each other's deceased loved ones. I can't imagine ever having a "better fit" relationship and am afraid I would always compare any future one to ours. Such a terrible, foolish loss for both of us for no valid reason.
Agree with you guys. I also was impressed with XW's commitment to looks and health the months before BD. I was so proud I even showed my supervisor a recent pic of her a couple months before BD. His reaction? "Uh-oh." I didn't understand then. I do now.
That's the thing, you hear all kinds of excuses for letting themselves go for years, but seem to have no trouble getting themselves back to pre marriage weight in as little as six months before they split.
Womens forums are full of such stuff where it almost seems they've do this on purpose, because they figure Hubby's afraid to say anything and it will lessen his desire for sex. Sad to think that as the PAU guys say, you have to use dread once in a whil;e to make them realise what they have.
OP,Rugged I agree with you entirely, their introspective foo issues ruin the long term relation ship at mid life. I see it evolving all around me, I don't want to be silent and modulated. I don't want to be politically correct " whatever for the severely damaged " I just want to get on with life. I a gree with chump lady loose a cheater gain a life . I'm just looking for it . From what I've experienced from certain So called MODERATORS on this site all females to be precise I'm better off with my Mlcer, shame on you all for pulling the women's card in this tornado we are in. Go boil your heads.
This probably isn't my place anymore. Meaning? I shouldn't jump back into this.
I have been stalking the site......... My first impressions of the "man cave?" It was generic and
"safe" for anybody that might be reading.......
I became somewhat encouraged by Hatter's post. I felt that he was making a case for the men on this site. He was pointing out some fundamental differences and.......... unlike you OP. I read the entire post.
I agree in that we must move on and "EVOLVE" if we are going to finish our lives with our MLCer or any other person in our lives. We cannot remain the same as we were, if we expect things to be any different next time around.
That being said. What I read in Hatter's post was a man's point of view and man's way of dealing with a subject. We are rational and logical.
That! Has been my biggest struggle with all of this. When things become irrational? When I feel that I am under attack?
I am genuinely pi$$ed............
When I imagine my xw spreading her legs for another man?
I go into a rage..................
That being said..... I allowed myself to do that. And...... It was necessary at the time.
LOGICAL THOUGHT PROCESS!!!!!!!!
Any machine that holds pressure is designed with a "pressure relief" valve in it. When it gets too high? When more pressure will damage a precious machine?
Wa la! The valve let's the pressure off! The machine remains intact.
The big question I have is this?
If a man cannot let off his steam in print? If a man cannot find someplace to be a man?
Where does this steam go?
If we look at this logically?
My xw is in crisis because she stuffed a precious little girl into the pit of her being. My xw actually hates the little girl inside of herself. I know this for a fact.
In the case of my xw? The little girl inside of herself is now, clawing her way out. Before it is too late.
Wouldn't it have been much more productive if my xw would have let the little girl have her say when the abuse happened? Wouldn't she have been justified in destroying all of the $hit around her at the injustice of it all? AT THE TIME IT WAS TAKING PLACE?
Or is it better for people. Male or female to repress the emotions we have? Become some kind of magically whole person. When in reality we are ignoring actual emotions? Emotions that are justified by the circumstances?
And. If we deal with them now? Wouldn't it be healthier than suppressing it and insuring that these emotions stay with us?
It is exactly this kind of "cherry picking" the posts that caused me to leave this site.
We can embrace men for who they are. Or we can use all of our energy trying to turn them into something "safe." Something that makes us feel better about ourselves.
AS. I've invited myself in....... I will let you all know what I am up to.
I am standing. I have allowed myself to rage at my xw, God, MLC, the world in general.
I feel that I've purged myself of the very emotions that will destroy any chance of a reconnection.
I've gotten rid of the emotions and have been able to look at my xw with new eyes. Honest eyes.
I have to make peace with everything that has happened. I have to allow myself to process as it presents itself to me.
At this point in my journey. My focus is on a little girl that was abused. A little girl that has destroyed a 30yr relationship because she is not going to be silent any longer.
When the little girl has her say? My xw is going to need a healthy dose of unconditional love and compassion.
Logically? The little girl has been silent long enough.
This goes for any deal breaker or undesired behavior! And ot works both ways if the guy caves too!!!Quite often it seems to go both ways. The husband and wife both let themselves go. And I look at them and think good for them, at least they're still together.
From what I've experienced from certain So called MODERATORS on this site all females to be precise I'm better off with my Mlcer, shame on you all for pulling the women's card in this tornado we are in. Go boil your heads.
From what I've experienced from certain So called MODERATORS on this site all females to be precise I'm better off with my Mlcer, shame on you all for pulling the women's card in this tornado we are in. Go boil your heads.
IMHO I do not believe this particular MLC tornado ever came with a "woman's card".
I agree that there is a "female chorus" in the outside world, the "You go, girl!" cadre of man-haters and divorce hags who cheer each other on for reprehensible things. But.....I don't see those women here. My guess is that those women are bitter former LBS who have learned that misery loves company and that they derive pleasure in seeing a man hurt in a way they cannot hurt the man who spurned them. The women I see here are women much more worthy, who "get it." I've not heard one woman defend or justify XW's actions and almost always condemn her actions toward the kids and I. Just my experience here, and no more valid than anyone else's.
All I can say is I can count on one finger the number of single/divorced women I've met or dated since BD that admitted to any responsibility for their part in the end of their marriage.
All I can say is I can count on one finger the number of single/divorced women I've met or dated since BD that admitted to any responsibility for their part in the end of their marriage.
I don't wish to sound argumentative (and this is the Man Cave, so I perhaps should gently exit?); but the entire basis of this website is to reinforce that the breakup of our marriages was not the LBS's fault. 'You didn't cause it, and you can't fix it'. "It's her/his crisis".
So why ever would you be surprised to hear single women irl NOT taking personal responsibility for the dissolution of their marriages, when none of the posters here (male or female) acknowledge the equivalent responsibility? I don't think this is a male vs female thing. It's a dealing-with-MLC thing.
...FWIW I don't think MLC/BD/divorce is the fault of the LBS. Though we each may have our own growing to do.
Hi Picton,
Thank you for restoring my faith in the opposite gender, I needed it. I am trying to work out my side of what caused my Mlcer to go nuclear. I can only look at the alienator she's with now, and I will give him a fictitious name Richard Head ha ha. She's going on lots of holidays and short breaks etc, prior to bomb drop it was hard work to get her to go anywhere, she's hanging around the bars with him as he's a bar fly.
They seem on the surface happy, but next door neighbour says she looks miserable all the time and hardly speaks.
I think she in her current condition is co dependant and if it's not the Richard it would be some other form of him. I believe she is getting validation from him/ them whatever and she's hooked on the compliments.
I wish in retrospect she could have let me know what she needed at the time and I would have responded in a positive way, but she said nothing at all and I can't read minds even though I wish I was capable of this. Whether or not she awakens from her trance, she's a cheater and once a cheater always a cheater they say. I still feel guilt for not seeing this coming and protecting our family, it's a daily burden I carry.
Good luck with your situation and may God go with you.
Jack
I don't think the hormonal question is even up for debate anymore. We now know that peri and menopause cause major changes in women, but also that men go through andropause as well. OP has maintained a hormonal connection ever si Ce he, Hobo/TB and I were on the peri site several years ago and I've not seen anyone challenge him on that.I agree with the above, however with the following exception.
I don't think the hormonal question is even up for debate anymore. We now know that peri and menopause cause major changes in women, but also that men go through andropause as well. OP has maintained a hormonal connection ever si Ce he, Hobo/TB and I were on the peri site several years ago and I've not seen anyone challenge him on that.I agree with the above, however with the following exception.
I personally have gone through a lot of andropause symptoms but have never had a MLC.
There are many women on this site who have gone through menopause and not have MLC's so while the above is TRUE, it is not a guarantee that if you go through menopause or andropause that you will have a MLC!!
Hope that is clear.
Hold on fellas...
I too found myself questioning whether "love" really existed or not, but I DO believe in it. Absolutely. If you doubt love at all, then wouldn't that mean you never truly loved your spouse? OF COURSE YOU DID! Co-dependence or not, you loved your spouse. We all did. If we didn't we would have told them "don't let the door hit ya where the good lord split ya" on their way out, instead of turning into a puddle of tears on the floor.
With the talk of co-dependence, maybe there is a "healthier" kind of love than what we have been used to, but you all know damn well we loved each other.
Does "love" last forever? Are two humans biologically programmed for monogamy for life? These are the questions I struggle with. But personally, I for one do NOT doubt the existance of love.
-T
... "Love" is simply the chemicals in your brain at play when your needs are getting met...
... "Love" is simply the chemicals in your brain at play when your needs are getting met...
Not to be facetious, but isn't "life" simply chemical actions and electric currents carried from our brains to our bodies?
You know I am really starting to hate that word "NEED"...I guess the goal of self healing is to get us to a point we don't "NEED" anyone but ourselves. Really? Okay, so at bomb drop maybe I thought I "NEEDED" my wife like I "NEED" oxygen, but the truth of the matter is, we as humans don't "NEED" a lot to survive. Food, water, shelter, and oxygen. Do I "NEED" anyone in my life to live; of course not. However, I have a "NEED" for companionship. I have a need to LIVE, not merely exist. Will I find "love" again one day-Maybe, maybe not. However, as angry as I am over my own personal situation and certain people in it, I REFUSE to turn into a bitter old man that hates ALL women, and no longer believes in love. I REFUSE to get to a point that being "in love" is only real when you are young.
-T
The famous clergyman Billy Graham and his wife were interviewed years ago, I think is was during their 60 anniversary, they were asked what their secret was to their long marriage...before Billy could say anything his wife said, " I think it was because we never hated one another at the same time" ....
...I agree with you. Love we are taught is pretty much the "perfect" emotion. Problem is, us humans are NOT perfect. Even happily married couples had times where "happily ever after" didn't just happen. It took a lot of heartache and work.
Reality is "Love" is not the fantasy we were force-fed as kids; the reality is much more sobering!
... marriage / LTR is disposable once we have got everything we can out of it or it is no longer what we "want"!
This new generation is even worse about it!