Midlife Crisis: Support for Left Behind Spouses
Archives => Archived Topics => Topic started by: Velika on September 21, 2016, 03:35:16 PM
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Okay, don't laugh ... I haven't totally lost my mind. I'm not sure I even believe in "phenomena" -- so this is really just a discussion to entertain the theoretical idea and hear others' impressions.
The reason this came up is that my son recently met OW and noted a very unusual physical feature that has a nefarious meaning. He also told me two accounts of her height; one in which she was so tall she had to stoop to enter through a doorway, and the next where she was much shorter. She also has stuff online that references esoteric pursuits and even magic/voodoo.
I know I have read people who come out of MLC sometimes say it was like they were possessed. Many LBS have observed many look like they are in a trance or "soulless" at times. This may just be a descriptive -- but do you think there is something more to this? Is there some dark spiritual force or energy at play in MLC?
I'm really just curious and hope no one finds this topic alarming or offensive.
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Velika, you did make me laugh. I'm not laughing at you.
Go I believe in the devil? Yes, I do.
I'm not sure this has anything to do with MLC but I think their dark side does listen to the devil encouraging them. Telling them it will be easier to do the wrong thing. The right thing is too hard.
In their weak condition responsibility or honor is difficult.
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This one made me laugh a bit too Velika.
Reminds me of a story many months before BD and D:
I was in the kitchen making dinner..
My oldest D was in the living room reading a book.
All is quiet.
In the distance we can hear ex h's car coming down the road ( it was a diesel)
It pulls in the driveway. Idles for a minute. Then shuts off.
Total quiet again.
The car door slams.
Oldest D says quietly
" Well (pause) Beelzebubs home"
( ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D I had to stop laughing before he got in the house)
The ex always was the devil..I just didn't know it. Or maybe refused to believe it.
I do believe there is a devil? You betcha
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I know I have read people who come out of MLC sometimes say it was like they were possessed. Many LBS have observed many look like they are in a trance or "soulless" at times. This may just be a descriptive -- but do you think there is something more to this?
No, it is the depression, overt or covert.
Is there some dark spiritual force or energy at play in MLC?
We are on the second half of the second decade of the XXI century, not on the X or XII century. Mental illness is not a demonic possession.
Your husband's OW may be into esoteric pursuits and magic/voodoo, but that is her stuff, it has nothing to do with your husband's MLC.
There may be one or other LBS whose spouse alienator is into esoteric pursuits and magic/voodoo., but must of us do not.
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I so believe in the devil. I have watched many Forensic Files or American Greed shows and the eyes of people who have done awful things - like steal people's life savings and become obsessed with material possessions or murder someone - are black and empty.
Shark eyes. Very much like the eyes of MLCers in Monster mode. Once a person lies and cheats they open the door to the Devil and the path spirals downward. The Devil is a trickster. The promise of fabulous and passionate sex forever. How often have you read that the affair down ends badly. The promise of unlimited freedom and fun if you just destroy the wife and kids. How often have you read that they wind up broken, aged and unhappy.
So many posters have given the MLCer up to God and I too prayed that He would save my husband and bring him back to God even if we were not together. I just wanted to see him rescued from the madness that I knew would destroy his life.
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Not sure if I believe in the Devil but definitely in evil spirits. I somehow got a lot of comfort in reading stuff by Sylvia Browne and James Van Pragh, even though they are more talking about the afterlife.
LP wrote something really interesting one time, I wish I could remember the thread. Her XH was just unhinged and violent and she was saying she saw him possessed or taken over by something.
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Oldest D says quietly
" Well (pause) Beelzebubs home"
( ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D I had to stop laughing before he got in the house)
The ex always was the devil..I just didn't know it. Or maybe refused to believe it.
Definitely think my H is the devil on certain days. ;D
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The Ex's AD looks like a lizard. Literally, my kids call her Golum. They said she looks like a lizard. And she's into New Age everything. Don't know if that counts. But since he's been with her, he has walked away from Christianity. Completely. So, there may be something to it.
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I was trying to think how to answer this one...because it is something that still freaks my wife out to this day, and I really don't know how to articulate what I feel on this.
Her answer is: Evil is Real, and there are evil forces at work in this world.
She has said that for a long time, after a lot of counseling...and for a while when she said it, it would really tick me off. Because it felt like a a cop out for her actions or the actions of whomever we were talking about. So I would preach along about personal responsibility, listening to your conscience, and that the ultimate decision was always with the individual...no some unseen force. We went around that one for a long time. It was then that she would articulate as best she could the battle that went on in her head...how her inner voice changed and how she felt so alone and confused...that the voice and reason that had always been there was suddenly missing and how disorienting that was, how it made her question everything...because everything looked, felt and seemed different through the eyes and ears of this new version of conscience.
All I can tell you is this...I believe in God and I believe in the Devil...and I do know that I have never been more afraid of anything or anyone in my life than that thing that was masquerading as my wife while she was fighting her own internal battle locked in her room. Looking in those eyes and seeing what she was like was like nothing I have ever seen before. Do I think she needed an exorcism to rid herself of a demon that would immediately cure her MLC...No, of course not. But is there evil in the world...unfortunately, of course there is. So for me...it is not that far to stretch to believe that evil feasts on misery & deception and it lives in the dark with lies and doubt...some people are vulnerable to MLC because of life events, trauma and tragedy...MLC takes those things and uses them against the vulnerable person causing Misery, Deception and Pain. To me...MLC is just a fertile breeding ground. IMO, I believe that MLC is a form of mental illness that manifests during certain periods to certain predisposed people...I have nothing to hang that on other than personal experience and a lot of others personal experience. But believing that it is mental illness does not preclude me from also seeing how evil can work within this illness.
I don't know if I agreed or disagreed with your premise V... :o
Stay Strong.
BB
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Demons?...Angels?... Or mental Illness?...
There were more than a few weird experiences in the early days.
Hours before BD, I walked in on husband when I thought he was talking a nap. He was laying in bed with his eyes wide open...sweating, shaking, I have described it as looking like he was being tormented by a serial killer. After reading this thread, a demon sounds more appropriate.
Then days later when he walked out the door for the last time, he looked straight at me with what I have described as a "demonic stare" and said, "I don't love you". He was so stiff, I remember being more horrified with his look and walk, something I have never seen him do in 30 years, then the words he spoke.
That was him.... I had my own experiences.
A week after he left, I had not slept at all, I mean not at all. I refer to that time as having hallucinations, some seemed so real. I went to the courthouse and filed for divorce. They sent me to the sheriffs office without directions. I was sobbing like crazy and driving like a maniac, trying to find the stupid building. I remember running off of a curb, going the wrong way (hard to see through the tears) probably about 40-50 mph. I heard a voice in my ear whisper "stop", I skidded to a stop. A car came flying through the intersection right at me. They beeped their horn and screamed at me, but if I didn't stop we would have collided.
My own inner voice?...an angel?...
I know it sounds crazy. Whatever it was, I'm thankful that I made it to the other side.
Interesting thread.
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Who really knows what MLC is? With mental illnesses people behave in a certain fashion. Like with shcizophrenia, they hear voices, them become delusional and paranoid. They can act like 2 difference people. All seem to have basically the same symptoms.
If you look and MLC, isn't that pretty much also true?
We talk about the script all the time. ILUBINILWU, I need space to figure out who I am, infidelity, personality change, the rewriting history.
They all seem to do and say the exact same things. Even in different parts of the world in different languages.
So who's to say with any certainty that this isn't a form of mental illness, even if temporary?
As far as I know there are some mental illnesses that can only be diagnosed through observing the behavior. There are no blood test that tells the doctors that's what it is.
I'm not saying I believe that but it is food for thought.
I personally think my H's was hormonal. but I don't know that for sure. Just my guess.
Sorry V, went off topic but BB got me thinking. :)
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nah, you're creeping me out. :o
Yes, those black, dead looking staring eyes. Very scary to look into.
I'm glad I'm reading this during the day. lol
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If you have never read "The Screwtape Letters" I would say that they are a very interesting theory on demonic influence as written by a Christian author. Fiction, but plausible I would day.
Satan's mission is to kill and destroy and he will use any weakness in order to accomplish his goals. Destruction of the family is high on his list and he seems to be working overtime in this area.
Does it rise to the level of "possession"? Maybe not, but definitely takes advantage in the vulnerabilities of mankind.
JMO........ :)
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While I hesitated to start this topic, I'm finding this discussion interesting and fruitful. My personal opinion is in line with what BB wrote, that this is a form of poorly understood mental illness. I think the neurology thread is actually one of the most informative on the board. But, like BB — and maybe others here — I do have moments where I feel that MLC transcends all this. Just like I can't say, "This is a normal breakup," I also don't feel like I can say, "This is a normal breakdown." Sometimes this feels like a fairy tale or a myth.
Nah, what you wrote is so true and so important to my own experience. (But before I address that — the stiff walk! I know exactly what you are describing.) It almost felt, as soon as the wheels of MLC set in motion with bomb drop, all the other people in my life, as if propelled by another, benevolent unseen force began almost guiding me along as if they were working together. To this day, if I piece together just the things others have told me, said to me, that helped me — I can't help but feel that there really are very powerful, collective forces in the world, even "angels." I often feel that MLC pushes into the realm of the symbolic and even mythical at times, but it's important to remember that the opposite is also true. There are different forces at play.
I was researching a little last night and found some of what Jung describes very applicable to this thread. In a post titled "Are We Possessed?" by Paul Levy, there is a lot of insight reconciling the physical mind and the idea of demons and other archetypes.
I am not someone who has studied Jung, and while I'm not familiar with the author of this site, I found this article incredibly interesting and relevant.
C. G. Jung, the great doctor of the soul and one of the most inspired psychologists of the twentieth century, had incredible insight into what is currently playing out, both individually and collectively, in our modern-day world. He writes, “If, for a moment, we look at mankind as one individual, we see that it is like a man carried away by unconscious powers.” We are a species carried away — “possessed” by — and acting out, the unconscious. Jung elaborates, “Possession, though old-fashioned, has by no means become obsolete; only the name has changed. Formerly they spoke of ‘evil spirits,’ now we call them ‘neurosis’ or ‘unconscious complexes.’” To condescendingly think that we, as modern-day, rational people, are too sophisticated to believe in something as primitive as demons is to have fallen under the spell of the very evil spirits we are imagining are nonexistent. What the ancients call demons are a psychic phenomena which compel us to act out behaviors contrary to our best intentions. To quote Jung, “…the psychic conditions which breed demons are as actively at work as ever. The demons have not really disappeared but have merely taken on another form: they have become unconscious psychic forces.”
“Possession,” according to Jung is “a primordial psychic phenomenon” that “denotes a peculiar state of mind characterized by the fact that certain psychic contents, the so-called complexes, take over the control of the total personality in place of the ego, at least temporarily, to such a degree that the free will of the ego is suspended.” Though the possessed might imagine they have free will, their freedom is an illusion. They are unwittingly being used as an instrument for some “other” energy or force to incarnate and express itself through them. Having complexes is not necessarily pathological, as everyone has them. What is pathological, however, is thinking we don’t have complexes, which is the precondition that makes us most vulnerable to possession. Jung clarifies, “Everyone knows nowadays that people ‘have complexes.’ What is not so well known, though far more important theoretically, is that complexes can have us.” The more complexes we have, the more we are possessed. We don’t need to get rid of our complexes, rather, we need to become consciously aware of them. What is important is what we do with our complexes.
Complexes are the psychic agencies which flavor and determine our psychological view of the world. To quote Jung, “The via regia [royal road] to the unconscious, however, is not the dream…but the complex, which is the author of dreams and of symptoms.” Thematically organized (such as the power-complex, savior-complex, mother-complex, inferiority complex, etc.), the complexes are the vehicles that flesh out the rich repository of contents of the underlying archetypes, giving the formless archetypes a specifically human face. Complexes are the living elemental units of the psyche, acting like the focal or nodal points of psychic life, in which the energy charge of the various archetypes of the collective unconscious are concentrated. An emotionally-charged complex acts like the epicenter of a magnetic field, attracting and potentially assimilating into itself everything that has any resonance, relevance or is related to itself in any way. This inner process can be seen as it en-acts itself in the outer world when we come in contact with someone who has an activated complex and we find ourselves drafted into their process, picking up a role in their psyche. This is an outer reflection of how a complex can attract, co-opt and subsume other parts of the environment, both inner and outer, into itself. Complexes, when split-off from consciousness, can potentially engulf and possess the whole personality.
“Possession” is an interesting word. It conjures up immediate associations of the Devil, who, mythologically speaking, is the one who “possesses” us, in the demonic sense of the word. Jung, however, differentiates his meaning of the word “possession” from the meaning associated with the Catholic Church, for example, when he writes, “The Church’s idea of possession, therefore, is limited to extremely rare cases, whereas I would use it in a much wider sense as designating a frequently occurring psychic phenomenon.” Possession, psychologically speaking, is to identify with a complex of the unconscious, and become taken over by it such that we act it out in, as and through our lives. Who among us hasn’t done this? Who among us shall cast the first stone?
You can find the full article here: http://www.awakeninthedream.com/are-we-possessed/
Just thinking again of what Nah wrote, but I think there is a powerful lesson in this for the LBS. I described this on my own thread, but when this all started, my young son was watching a space documentary on NOVA. He took my breath away when he suddenly told me that he had a theory of why the universe was expanding. He said he thought that if dark holes were taking in galaxies and planets, something must be coming out.
Maybe our lesson as LBS is to see, can we identify and harness the forces around us? Can we see that when the black hole is taking something in, it is pushing something out? Carl Sagan even speculated that dark holes were in fact light on the inside. Do we always know what is created and what is being destroyed?
Yoko Ono said, "Power is power. It's energy. And if you get big, big energy you can use that in a good way."
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Then days later when he walked out the door for the last time, he looked straight at me with what I have described as a "demonic stare" and said, "I don't love you". He was so stiff, I remember being more horrified with his look and walk, something I have never seen him do in 30 years, then the words he spoke.
Nah--that look. That stare. My H had it for at least 8 months. And when he said my name--he used my whole name instead of what he normally called me, it was almost as if he were spitting it out.
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Another great quote from the article I posted:
When we “see” a demon, we know its name, which helps us to get a “handle” on it. Naming is exorcistic, as it dis-spells the demon’s power over us. Jung says that “The act of naming is, like baptism, extremely important as regards the creation of personality, for a magical power has been attributed to the name since time immemorial. To know the secret name of a person [or a demon] is to have power over him.” Elsewhere, Jung writes, “For mankind it was always like a deliverance from a nightmare when the new name was found.” Finding the name is an act of power. Jung comments, “The moment you can designate the lived archetype by its symbol, you feel relieved, that is a good and positive moment even if it is horrible…Therefore old Egyptian medicine consisted in giving the thing the right name…A new name always produces an extraordinary effect; we cannot rationalize these things, they cast a spell, they are symbols, they really do influence the unconscious as the unconscious influences us.”
It is very important for us to re-introduce the words “demon” and “possession” back into our vocabulary, minus the fear that we will be seen as being primitive, crazy or even possessed ourselves if we use such words. We need to expand our psycho-spiritual fluency to enable us to navigate the living waters of our inner and outer landscapes. Being “possessed by demons” – taken over by unconscious, psychic forces – is something that happens to all of us, and it is to our great advantage to be able to properly name our experience. Finding the name empowers us to creatively engage with these parts of ourselves that are emerging from the shadows “in the name of healing.”
KIT, whoa, I hadn't thought of that in a while, but the way my husband said my name in the wake of bomb drop was so creepy and cold. Odd, the similarities.
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Your post was very interesting, Velika. Kind of puts me in mind of 1T's talk of positivity. This is a great thread. This and the psychic thread has me reading about positive/negative forces and spiritual things; very informative and it's a great distraction!
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Just thinking again of what Nah wrote, but I think there is a powerful lesson in this for the LBS. I described this on my own thread, but when this all started, my young son was watching a space documentary on NOVA. He took my breath away when he suddenly told me that he had a theory of why the universe was expanding. He said he thought that if dark holes were taking in galaxies and planets, something must be coming out.
Maybe our lesson as LBS is to see, can we identify and harness the forces around us? Can we see that when the black hole is taking something in, it is pushing something out? Carl Sagan even speculated that dark holes were in fact light on the inside. Do we always know what is created and what is being destroyed?
Yoko Ono said, "Power is power. It's energy. And if you get big, big energy you can use that in a good way."
I'm so glad you did start this topic and your son sounds much like mine.
I have always had a strong, instinct, intuition, gut feelings, or whatever you want to call it. Sometimes I describe myself as a witch and people will laugh, until I predict things again and again and again. My son (but not my daughter) has the same thing, again, whatever you want to call it. Sometimes we have had the same dream, on the same night, one was about husband dying within a few years.
I can't really say BD was a huge surprise, I mean yes it was like a punch in the gut, but I knew something was up, I was just afraid to face it.
It took awhile, I had lost myself for awhile but my fears are now gone.
It was hard to pick a quote, V, there is so much I agree with what you have wrote. I love the idea of harnessing one's powers. I agree with your son, there is a push and a pull, a ying and a yang, creation and destruction.
So why do we focus so much on the MLCer and their OP? They are the darkness. It's so hard to do, I did it myself, it takes time to get out of their way and let them swirl around in their own darkness.
I'm not perfect, I confess there were many times I wanted to send "bad vibes" their way. It was a constant internal struggle. I had to remind myself not to give them any power by letting them into my mind. I would advise on this forum to newbies again and again,...do not give that OP one drop of power, ignore, ignore, ignore. I will always believe this is good advise, no matter what the reason. My own reason was, if she seeped into my thoughts I would be tempted to send out bad vibes. I didn't want the darkness coming back to me. I wanted to work on seeking my own light.
The early days, I was in darkness. Yuck, it was so heavy, everyone on here knows that feeling. I worked so hard to climb out, and slid more than a few times. When I met my boyfriend, I warned him, "sometimes I'm afraid that my demons will come back." That was the exact phrase I used. He thought I was a little crazy (maybe I am). I'm not afraid anymore, my light is strong, I feel like I can take on just about anything now.
It's a great feeling.
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MLC involves depression, depression is a mental ilness. Stress and anxiety effects are also detrimental to mind and body, and MLCers suffer from both.
The stare/dead eyes of an MLCer are similar to those of some depressed people (it depends of the severity of the depression). When the depression lift, even if for a short time, the eyes become normal.
The psychotic episodes some MLCers have, that can lead them to become physically violent or do and say extremely bizarre things, are part, among other illnesses, of depression.
All signs MLCer show, including the most strange ones, fit with mental ilness/neurological issues.
So why do we focus so much on the MLCer and their OP? They are the darkness. It's so hard to do, I did it myself, it takes time to get out of their way and let them swirl around in their own darkness.
For the same reason astronomers and astrophysicists focus on the universe, planets and black holes. To understand. But I think we end up focusing more on MLC that the MLCer and their alienator. At least, foe me MLC is more interesting than any individual MLCer or their alienator.
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I remember the first time I saw those icy, black eyes. It truly made me take a step back. He was in my face and wanted to fight...he was daring me to say or do something. I knew I was looking at pure evil; regardless of what Avenue it took to get to my h, it was in my kitchen and in my face. I remember thinking oh hell no and kissed him on the cheek as I said good night.
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I am a logical person. I am not a lifelong deeply religious person as I only returned to the church after BD. I don't speak about my religious views here or elsewhere.
However,
I do believe in evil. I see it and spend time with it daily in my work. My clients murder, rape, molest children, and sell drugs. I have interviewed nationally and internationally known serial killers. Yes, some are mentally ill. That fact has nothing to do with whether or not they are evil.
Just as the idea that a person is in MLC does not preclude the person from having an evil darkside. If your spouse does not have an evil darkside or you have not seen it, count yourself lucky. I saw my former husbands darkside. I saw evil.
My former husband was a brilliant doctor and a career Marine. He was kind and loving and gentle. Sure he had his faults but he was not a violent man and certainly not with me or his mother.
That all changed with his MLC.
We were on the phone and he was screaming at me. His mother asked him to be quiet in her home, and he threw her to the ground and stepped over her on his way out the door. She was 79 at the time. This was the mother he worshiped. She was the best cook. He split his time off between her and our home. Literally. He bought her elaborate presents. He worried about her health. He was one big mama's boy. But he threw her to the ground. I heard him do it. I called his brother. His brother found his mother on the floor crying. She said she fell. Fell on both sides of her face. Fell on to a shoe that put a bruise in the shape of a shoe sole on her side. Sure, she fell. Sure.
Now is that evil? Not in and of itself. Ugly yes. A crime yes.
For me:
Until you have been there and have seen what I saw, don't tell me its mental illness. It wasn't.
Don't tell me it has anything to do with the century we are in because it does not.
Reading from a book is not the same as personal experience.
I know the exact date I lost the fight with the devil over my ex.
I was there.
I saw it with my own eyes.
MLC is an identity issue. For me, the crisis comes first and the health problems are a secondary result. That's why I am not a believer in the neuro theory. My husband, as a member of the military, had yearly physicals. His hormones were not out of wack. He had brain scans and nothing was amiss. He had blood tests and nothing was amiss. He had 19 weeks of counseling with psychiatrists, psychologists, and other evaluators. Nothing. He was tested for everything from Huntington's Disease to heavy metal poisoning to PTSD and everything in between. He saw doctors well versed in mental illness who found nothing. We had the money to pay for the best and did. Both civilian and military experts. Psychological exams were compulsory and later of his own free will. He cooperated since they had nothing to do with me or reconciling. Nobody could find anything wrong with him.
The battle was over 2 weeks. I wont relate it all, and I never have. I saw things that are just too private to share.
He was normal at first. Normal for MLC. He kept explaining to me why we couldn't be together, our differences, etc. Rational, reasonable. As the days passed, the conversation ended. We slipped in to a pattern of just having fun. He slept on the couch while I slept in the bed. We made plans, socialized, worked out together, ate together, all just normal. Then I awakened one night to find him standing in the doorway to my bedroom. He hadn't even turned on the hall light. It was just after 3 am and completely dark. My female dog growled and that's what awakened me. Ex was standing in the doorway talking to himself. Over and over he said, "I don't want to do that." Pause. "I have to do it." Pause. "I know I have to." And a bunch of other things. But the bottom line was he was arguing with himself over hurting me at least. I shook off the sleep as my dogs both began growling loudly and sitting up. I grabbed them and yelled, "Get your a$$ out of here or I will blow your a$$ out the door. (He knew I keep a gun by the table.) He turned around and shuffled back to the couch to sleep. He walked as though he were in a trance except that his head was down.
The next morning we went to the gym. At the gym he began acting strange. He was very competitive with guys in their 20's. He was spotting me on an exercise and let the weights fall on my neck. I shoved them off me and fell to the floor. He stood over me looking at me with a strange odd stiffness to him. Interested, curious, as I gasped for breath. But no feeling, no concern. (I've seen the same look on serial killers face's.) Another guy ran over and helped me up. Ex screamed at him to get his hands off me. The guy backed away. Then ex went over and began another exercise. He was lifting extreme amounts of weight, so heavy I couldn't spot him since the weights lifted me off the ground. The exercise is an iron cross type in which the arms are extended to the sides like a crucifixion. He just kept adding more and more weights. He kept making these sounds at me like snarling. I stood back far away just watching. When he completed the whole set, he came stalking over to me. He got nose to nose with me and yelled, "Did you see that? What do you think of your Jesus now? I held my own weight plus in the air. What do you think of your Jesus now? That killed him. I am alive." I shook my head and began backing away. He grabbed me by the upper arms and shook me so hard my teeth rattled. He just kept yelling, "What do you think of your Jesus now? I should be your God." As he repeated this, his face was bright red, spit flew from his mouth, and his eyes were dark and dead. I finally had enough and snarled at him to let me go, that I wasn't impressed and I wanted to leave as everyone was staring at us. A switch flipped and he slid back to normal almost as he noted the counter man was dialing the police. He walked off with a stiff back, and shaking, veins sticking out everywhere, eyes dilated and the whites all red and blood shot. He had a strange body odor as well, not normal sweaty, but strong. His speech was strange, a different tone, hissing, lips back, teeth barred. I wiped the spit off my face and left. We rode home in silence. The towel he used to shower turned crusty and the pattern faded by evening. The lab said it was salt. I was treated for two blisters on each arm the next day, just where he held me.
Ex slept 5 hours after that which is very unusual as the man never once slept during the day in all the years we were together. He could hardly sleep at night like a normal person.
Ex has no memory of that time. He denied it until he saw camera footage.
As to names he began calling me "Mommy" and tried to demand I called him Dr. X. (his name). I declined. When the police came to get him much later in my story it took 4 officers to subdue him with tasers, and he still fought. All 4 went to the hospital for treatment. When the military came for him they brought 6 soldiers. They needed every one of them.
No doctor as yet has found an explanation for his behavior during those two weeks. An FBI profiler compared him to a specific serial killer who underwent an exorcism and became a productive member of society. Another psychiatrist said he had a psychotic break, but has no explanation for why it has never happened again, the lack of physical indicators or lingering effects. My bishop and my priest met him during this time. Bishop D threw up and my Priest was so shaken he cried and said, "A devil can also spout scripture with great sincerity. Stay away from him as his soul is lost." The only people he reacted to so strongly were myself, my priest, and my bishop.
Even Heart's Blessing told me to stay away from him as he is dangerous to my soul and my safety. I think I am the only person she has ever advised to not stand under any circumstance as she believes he is evil.
That's the short story. You all call it what you want. You weren't there. I was.
Lp
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Oh my God LP.
Your story really shook me.
I am at a total loss for words. How do you even begin to explain what happened to him during this time?
When I hear people talk about the dead, black, soul-less of the eyes I can only remember only one time seeing them and it frightened me.
It's not the same dead, vacant eyes I saw my H have after BD.
It was a time before we were married. I will never forget it as long as I live...and have never seen it since.
We were in a grocery store and some man kept repeatedly running into my H's heals with his shopping cart.
I happened to turn around a saw his eyes. The were the blackest eyes I have ever seen in my life. It wasn't anger it was more PURE hatred. Like his eyes were nothing but solid black pupils....and it was like he wasn't even there. Then in a few minutes they were back to normal.
I told him afterwards I NEVER want to see those eyes look at me like that. They were pure evil looking.
I have seen that look in serial killers eye, but only in pictures.
Anyway, thank you for sharing you experience. Really makes you wonder.
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How do I explain what happened to him?
His darkside was very dark. The amount of pain and anger and hurt he surpressed over the years was huge. It ate at him, making a weak spot in which evil grew. One day the darkside took over. That's all I need to know and yet it seems I will know more as he feels the need to share his dark side with me even though I rarely respond as he works out his demons in the emails to me. Some are filled with confusion. Some anger. Some rage. Some such pain. All just short of taking responsibility yet.
The secrets some of these men carry are so dark, so frightening, so ugly, as to damage all around them. Thats why some are so angry, some want to destroy the spouse in total. No medication can fix that. It is something that must be faced and aired to heal if that is possible. Medication only helps in the late stages based on my experience with me these two men. And then it is only a crutch to get them a chance to heal.
I've been to hell with J as well, know his secrets and what drove him to his crisis. I listened day after day, week after week, just listened. No pity. No comfort. Just an ear. All my questions were answered about MLC, the why's and how's in the process yet the cost was high. He is doing well though. It is only me that remembers in great detail the stories he told.
Ex keeps telling me, "things weren't supposed to turn out like this". He wants to come home. But the price is too high and I'm too tired to do any more battles with the dark side.
The bottom line is evil exists and no pill or brain scan can fix that. Each person must choose to fight his own demons or live with them.
Lp
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Like Lawprofessor, I am a logical person. I am not religious, but I am spiritual. However, it is not a secret and have even being praying to Mary for grandmother. But I tend to separate a person's belief from the Church, the institution. And, for me, it is more the power of belief and the energy that comes from it. Be it praying to the Universe, Nature, God, Mary, or Higher Power.
Evil for me is the energy and behaviours that can be formed in certain situations. War, big greedy ruthless corporations and the mentality they exert upon those who work for them, unscrupulous poloticians.
What about those types of clients LP mentioned? For sure some of them have a very dark side. An horrendous dark side, in fact. I am just not so sure if the evil has nothing to do with being mentally and/or morally ill. I am in no way excusing those people actions. Their actions are abhorrent. But why do they behave that way? What lead to those actions? I don't know. In some, like LP said, there is obvious mental illness. In others, I truly do not know. Some defy reason.
I would not find it unlikely that those that defy reason also have a mental illness or some very messed up brain (phaedophilia is thought to come from a misswiring in the brain that, so far, no one knows how to correct). However, at our current level of knowledge we do not have any way of stop serial killers from being serial killers, paedophiles from being paedophiles or rapist from being rapists (from what I know some rapist seem to suffer from complicated phycological issues that no one knows how to treat). Murderers rehabilitation I think it would depend of the type of murder.
I am all for rehabilitation when possible, and when it does not put society at danger. If it does, it is better those people are kept away from society. Not necessarly in a prison, but in some appropriated facility. Even if here, with our maximum jail sentence at 25 years (and that requires something of gigantic magnitude) many of those people are quicly back in society. Or, with luck, are taken to a psychiatric hospital.
Do normal people have a dark side? Maybe. Or maybe the dark side is just our side when we are stressed, depressed, angry. I always think of Shantilly Lace, a former board member who had post-partum depression and wanted to kill, if I am not mistaken, her husband (maybe also the child and hersel? I don't remember.) and who has written about that time in her life. How out of control she was. Was she evil? Or was it the post.partum depression that brought up the dark side?
I saw more less with Mr J, if not the same, as Lawprofessor saw with her husband. But had seen my paternal aunt who suffered from mental illness (I was never told which illness) and my schizophrenic maternal grand aunt, plus hearing my mum and sibling taking of how my maternal grandfather acted when on his episodes (bipolar or borderline, no one knows for sure), I knew that it was some sort of mental illness. At the time I just did not knew what I was seeing. I was seeing psychotic episodes. Really nasty ones.
One day I was dragged from bed across the flat floor with Mr J screaming at me that he was going to rip that child out of me (we thought I was pregnant). Then he opened the flat door and tried to push me down the stairs. The next day he come by the flat and he had no recollection of what had happend.
Another time he ripped apart the internet cabble so that I could not work and picked the destop tower and nearly smashed it out of the windown. Then he broke in tears and run.
This just to name a few things that happened. Like LP's husband, Mr J does not remember any of the incidents.
For me it is different, the stress, anxiety and depression lead to the crisis mode and make the other issues come to the front. Regardless of our view of MLC, it does not change the horror of being physically hurt by our spouse who, until MLC was a normal person.
Even Heart's Blessing told me to stay away from him as he is dangerous to my soul and my safety. I think I am the only person she has ever advised to not stand under any circumstance as she believes he is evil.
No, you are not. She told me the same. Except she does not think Mr J is evil but quite ill. And that she can see some hope for him if he ever crashes and does a very hard, long work. But she told me to not to try to get close to him, a thing I did not intended to. And, much I keep saying how I regret had come back home, the truth is that I may not be alive if I had stayed. A thing HB agress wirh.
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Yes, I believe there is a dark side at work in MLC. Our university police chief, who has a lot of experience working the streets on big city police forces, once told me not all cops believe in God but they all believe in the devil. I would say with good reason.
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Velika,
Read the book, "People of the Lie", by M Scott Peck. It's an eye opener on this very subject. He's a therapist with some interesting insight on the subject.
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not all cops believe in God but they all believe in the devil.
Absolutely true in the Chicago area as well.
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I've talked to a few people who have come out of MLC and they have an eerily similar story to tell about how things were during MLC. People who have had demons routed out have said that their experiences of not being unable to control themselves, feeling like they were watching themselves, and the voices telling them what to do are similar.
The is evidence of people who have been delivered from demons telling about: something taking over, being compelled and wanting to stop what they were doing, not being able to is out there. We can't just dismiss it. I've noticed that some people who are set in their beliefs and ways of thinking are condescending to those who don't think like or believe as they do.
Being spiritual is no excuse for that type of attititude or behavior. To them I say, it's time to check your ego, and give everyone else the courtesy being able to speak their minds here, that has been openly extented to you. I believe it's worth researching.
I absolutely believe in God and the Devil, and have personally met possesed people. You can feel the spiritual energy of darkness on people possessed. There is a heaviness in the air when in their presence. You can feel the hairs on the back of your neck stand up with some. And a since if foreboding when they're around. Not a pleasant experience.
The Ex had that heaviness surrounding him. I could feel it the minute he entered the home. It would fill the room. And he would look at me and start complaining which lead to screaming at me. For no reason, and then storm off upstairs. It was a draining daily experience.
I'm with LP, the s*it he put me, and more importantly our girls through was absolutely evil. I don't buy this being mental illness depression as the sole reason, this is something far more sinister.
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LP
You have been on my mind since I read your post last night. I am just speechless! There have been a few times where h will say "your God" and will curse him up and down. It's not h talking at all..he talks in the 3rd person as if someone is speaking through him. FREAKY! And I k ow about the bad energy they give off...I've felt it. It stops me in my tracks every single time until I can get my bearings and say a prayer of protection. They make the room feel like you are standing in molases....And they eyes...I have a few pics of h that I can't even look at bc it scares the $h!te out of me!
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I haven't been on in a very long time. I just got a random email of a response, so I thought I would see what is going on. I came across this thread. I will tell you I know this is exactly what it is. I will tell you a little bit of what I have learned bc I have been doing research since 2011 on this very thing.
In January 2011 after BD after a few returns H came home again was home for a few days as usual then started again. Only being a few months in at this time I'm so confused, hurt, angry Ect. We talked and that day he cried like I have never seen. He then left. What happened next he drove down the street, sat in his truck and cried so hard he said that he felt something lift (literally) lift off of him.
"it goes and takes with it seven other spirits more wicked than itself, and they go in and live there. And the final condition of that person is worse than the first. That is how it will be with this wicked generation." Matt 12:45
As soon as that happened he was confused and said he knew how much he loved me and always did, didn't know why or what was going on. He called his mom talked to her. Which she told him he could not go home he did to much to me and she was afraid he was going to do it again. I understand why. Told him he needed to go. H went to OW's house bc he didn't know what to do. He left called his mom again telling her omg I can't I don't know her I don't even like her. She tried to touch me and I pulled away from her and told her don't touch me. He told his mom to call me.
Long story short it lifted off him, returned even worse a few days later he was not a born again or he did not have a relationship with the lord.
People (OW) can transfer spirits by just touching them. H remembers now he was fine but remembers after she asked if she could give him a hug he said everything felt different. He said it just got foggy! That was out it started day 1 also
Looking at her history she has broke up many marriages.
"But we belong to God, and those who know God listen to us. If they do not belong to God, they do not listen to us. That is how we know if someone has the Spirit of truth or the spirit of deception." 1John 4:6
There is way more to it. The Bible has scripture after scripture of spirits from Depression ,lying spirits to familiar.
Bottom line is people don't say or do the exact same things in a timeline without something guiding them.
"For our wrestling is not against flesh and blood, but against the principalities, against the powers, against the world's rulers of the darkness of this age, and against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places." Eph 6:12
I will tell you God is good. Power over any
I know this is very confusing I'm trying to put 5 years worth of info in this but
When you think about illness or Disease like Diabetes for instance
They may have the same symptoms. This is different when u read about it and the people going through this, they are Saying and doing the Exact same things!
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LP, what a horrifying story. :( Unbelievable. What did your H mean by 'your Jesus'? Were you religious? Was his hated mother religious? Very strange, the religious angle.
I don't believe in the devil in the mediaeval way, or that there are dark forces out there that do battle in the way of those that we often see in movies. And yet. I do remember the word 'evil' popping into my mind in the early days of my H's crisis. It was the only word that seemed to capture his suddenly cruel and twisted behaviour. I also remember sitting at breakfast one time in my IL's home and looking at FIL, and thinking, there's something about you that I really don't like, that seems 'nasty'. I've never ever felt this about anyone else I've ever met in my life.
Cruelty is frequently born of pain and suffering, though, isn't it? Even in serial killers (or so a documentary I once watched said). So I don't know that anyone devil-like or a devil-like force comes along and points a finger and 'wham' the person is suddenly beset by evil, but I do believe that cruelty, violence, hatred - ALL the negative and destructive emotions - become, collectively, a negative and yes, 'evil' power in humanity's midst. More like an energy, as other posters have said.
Maybe when the destructive emotions become SO pent up and so huge that they come at us like a whirlwind, then we find them so terrifying and dangerous that we turn to words like 'evil' to express the sheer extent of the horror we feel.
I think mlc is a mental illness. But science doesn't yet seem to have worked out what happens in the brain, or the causes, when people are submitted to cruelty for very long periods, relentlessly, and especially when the victims are young and have no defences. For me that's where the word 'evil' is required in order to express what I feel - when I see or hear of people being cruel to children.
Because when someone is cruel to a child they have no compassion, no sense of the child's innocence and vulnerability or their own overwhelming power. In the moment of their cruelty to the child the adult is a disgusting creature, self-serving, vicious, inflated with a feeling of entitlement to hurt someone else. That, to me, is about where 'evil' resides. Of course when adults are cruel to adults it's as bad, really.... But there's that extra vile-ness to the warping of something that exists as pure goodness - a child's innocence.
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I`ve been thinking this for a long time about my MLCer and actually had a conversation with my BF about it last night. My MLCer`s M had a very evil side to her. He detested her because of this and kept contact with her to a minimum as she always went out of her way to provoke and insult whoever she disliked most ( mostly me) that was present. The wierd and awful thing about it is that he seems to have taken over this evil side of her personality but is a thousand times worse than she ever was.
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Do I believe in the devil? Yes, yet pretty sure not in the way most do. Not the red dude with pointy ears and a pitchfork.
Do I believe in MLC as a mental illness? Yes I do.
Do I believe in 'demonic possessions' not at all.
Do I believe in magic or voodoo? No.
Do I believe in 'souls' No.
I'm a skeptic and a realist; it all takes a while for me to 'believe'. For me there must be proof. Evidence. And that goes for everything in my life.
Do I feel MLC has a dark side. Absolutely. At least with my MLCer. I feel whatever happened to him was so deep and scarred him so badly even he doesn't want to think about it at all. Hence the long running Replay behaviors.
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Attaching!!! Interesting enough just this week I told another LBS that I thought I was in a battle with Satan himself. She said she felt the same way but was afraid to say that to anyone else. I have to turn that battle over to God. I can't fight that battle alone.
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Yep I agree Shocked..you gotta give them to God.
It took quite a bit for me to admit it; the battle was too big for me.
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Exactly Shocked and in it.
Self Focus, detach and let go are the best ways to deal with this!
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Hi all, :)
Just want to add some things for those who read this thread later. :D
I have always be spiritual but not religious not even through deaths of grandparents and Mom. I live in a part of the world where "black magic" and shamans are present day happenings and not part of a distant past.
When H was deep in the tunnel, there were hints from relatives that H's work country was riddled with "black magic" and there were women who would use it to "catch" my H. H's apartment overlooked a cemetery and that was suggested by some other relatives that it was dangerous to do so.
At the time of first Dday, even the first MC asked me if I had considered "voodoo". ::) :o my reply was that H did this all on his "own-some" and I didn't want him to shirk any responsibility and evade accountability by using "voodoo". Yet.....
Things happened during this time and from this time onward that opened my eyes to how much I had been blessed and protected by God. H as well, he told me that "looking back, SomeOne up there is looking after me." And He truly was. :) :) :)
Further, I have seen with my own eyes a "rictus" smile on H when he "thanked" me just after Xmas 2014 when we Skyped MIL. It was a chilling look, for in that moment, I saw a skull underneath H's skin. :-[ it was soon after this that I prayed for H to be kept safe in God's hands as I could not battle this alone.
I prayed the Hedge of Thorns over H and also a prayer of protection over our house and family. Things started to go very very wrong for OL and H. She stepped up the pressure and things H "overlooked" before started to be annoying to him. And her true colours started to show through.
H looks back now (he is trying to write out a timeline with the help of IC) and has said it seems like he was "addicted" " intoxicated" but also has used the word "possessed". Though he was brought up Church of England, H had never been a church goer. He was very sceptical of "bible bashers" and yet there now seems to be a very spiritual side to him now. His IC prays with him after each session and he seems to gain strength from this.
I do believe there is a fundamental battle between good and evil. And that there are forces which tempt and aim to break up marriages and families. I am also seeing OL as a pawn in this. OL has recently become "engaged" to an older expat in H's work country. And when I mean older, he is retired and at least 65. OL is 28 this year and the story on Fakebook is following a very similar script, down to the holiday and rings. h feels now that he "went off the rails" and that he was a fool. I see it as a very close brush with the bottom of a very warm pit and that it was by the grace of God that he managed to climb out.
I am very grateful that H's IC (who is a church Elder) is guiding him on H's "Road to Redemption". "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy". How true.
Peace and strength.
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Bump
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Believe it or not, this is one of my areas of academic expertise. Magic and possession. Such things are very common in my husband's country. In fact, a government study about 20 years ago found people spend more money on this stuff than they do on medical treatment.
The OW long believed someone had put a curse on her to reject men. She finally got it removed (by the brother of one of the world's leading religious authorities nonetheless) and a week or two later she met my husband. No joke.
One night I dreamed I was in my kitchen talking to her. I told her, "This dishwasher isn't very good. Next time I would buy a different brand of dishwasher." I woke up, went into the kitchen, and having been reminded about the dishwasher by my dream, went to turn it on to wash the dishes in it. It wouldn't start. I really was suspicious about that coincidence. Turned out mice had chewed through the electric wires, but still it spooked me.
I would not put it past her to try magic against me. If she believe it worked on her, then why wouldn't she believe it would work on me?
I have actually toyed with the idea of telling my husband he is possessed when he monsters at me. It might be a more effective truth dart than telling him his personality has changed. It would allow him to not have to take personal responsibility for it.
90% of people here believe impotence can be caused by magic. Including my husband and he is a doctor. There are doctors here who will blame medical syndromes on folk medical concepts just to get their patients to comply with treatment, even though the doctors know it is bull$h!te.
Some people blame certain symptoms on medical causes, others on men being lying cheating bastards, others on possession or magic. In the end, people will believe whatever explanation suits their worldview. If you want to influence someone's behavior, telling them the cause is something they believe in is a more effective manner than what you believe.
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We are on the second half of the second decade of the XXI century, not on the X or XII century. Mental illness is not a demonic possession.
Yes but you would be shocked how many people believe in these sorts of things, even in America. People always want to believe that civilization progresses to a more enlightened state. It doesn't work that way.
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Thank you OP!
I got interested in this topic after reading about Watcher's wife's somewhat dramatic emergence from the fog. I hope you don't mind, Watcher, if I post some of her descriptions here, as they echo what other people who have emerged from MLC have said.
Demonic Possession/Dark Cloud/Fog
W decribes her crisis ( her words) as almost a demonic possession. Look she is having a moment of some clarity at best but she is still in the thick of things with her mlc.
The only other tidbit that she has added so far is that "a dark cloud ascended over my life". She said yesterday that she finally believes "that dark cloud has lifted".
Virgin Mary/Prayer/Church
Then we went out to my car and sat in it for hours alone. She says the cloud(her words) began lifting in November (month 17 post BD). She had a horrible dream. She had a dream of a Virgin Mary statue that lost its head and smashed as it hit the floor. She woke up shaking and scared. She immediately went back to Church and began praying.
In January (month 19 post BD), she woke up one morning and the cloud was gone for good . She waited a few days and it just never came back. She immediately began to seek me out. (Jan 18, Jan 20) and wanted me home, but still was hesitant.
Rosary
It's fascinating, I brought that rosary in Sept 2015, 3 months post BD. I believe she donated it. She wanted nothing from me at that time. It means something to her now.
She told me that one symbolic gesture let her know that Watcher knew something was wrong with her. She knew that her behavior was not normal because of the rosary. (Go Figure) She remembered my giving it to her but her possession just took over but she knew that I was there with that gift.
My own MLC-H, who is on a similar timeline as Watcher's wife, also recently told me that he was concerned my family and I thought he wasn't the person we had believed -- or that he had been possessed by OW. Since he projects, I was surprised by this use of language. Since his MLC he and she have gotten into shamanistic rituals. He also if you read my thread has become very morbid, interesting in watching violence like boxing and even animal-cleaning videos (hunting stuff). Totally out of character.
C4E I also had a dream about OW and a dream about a church. In the OW dream, I was laughing along with someone's maniacal laughter. I realized in the dream that the person laughing was OW and she was laughing at me. I woke up and my heart was racing.
In the church dream, soon after bomb drop, I had sought sanctuary in a dilapidated church. I was surrounded by old, decrepit, suffering people, lying on the floor. I became aware that an animal, some sort of beast, was slinking along the ceiling, and I knew it was coming for me because it could smell me. It was terrifying.
I am someone who believes MLC is a frontotemporal lobe issue. But if our brains out out as well as receive/perceive energy frequencies, it makes sense that a faulty system may also cause a person to participate/dwell/interact on a different "energy level" of some sort.
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It's very hard for me to relate to any of this because I am not a religious person.
I understand the fog analogy better. That sort of makes sense to me me than possession of an evil spirit or whatever.
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That's all good Velika, no problem :)
I wish that I could add more but I'm allowing her to talk on her own accord and not ask any questions.
She says that she began to explore why she was hammering me for a divorce when she has always been anti divorce.
She has told me that Satan attacked our marriage. We allowed it by neglecting our marriage through our various vices and addictions.
She believes that we had to go through all the pain and hurt to show us the error of our ways and for us to not allow this to happen again.
She revealed that she has been talking to a Catholic Priest for sometime now to help her.
She had the 2 of us blessed at Church, she has blessed medallions that we wear to protect our marriage and we did something at our home where blessed objects were placed outside the 4 corners.
She is having a spiritual awakening. She is incredibly happy and calm and at peace. If this is what it takes to bring her back to life then I'm all for it. It's been nothing but a positive experience thus far and hopefully she continues on her path to recovery.
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And yes Velika, I remember when you first posted this thread and I did believe that you were losing it :) never knowing that I would end up on it.
Look I was comfortable with the terms fog and tunnel for so long. My W did not experience either so they no longer apply to my situation. She uses dark cloud and demonic possession. It is her experience so that is what I have to go with now. She is the MLC ER and this is her story and experience. Who am I to say otherwise. I am just an observer.
Thank you Velika for starting this thread and hopefully I can contribute more when my W feels comfortable revealing more of her story.
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Haha I guess all roads lead to demonic possession.
I was really taken aback when I read your wife's descriptions. It made me wonder why people say this over and over again.
To be honest, I have always thought of the world in more traditional psychological framework. Before this, I saw people's failings and mistakes products of their upbringing and limits.
Again, I now feel that a lot of this is neurological but it is hard to ignore some of the spiritual aspects.
I really appreciate you sharing your story! As you know I have spent some time living in your wife and inlaws' home country so I can see how thr awareness of this issue would be greater for your wife.
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Even if it is something psychological or physiological going on in their brain, I've seen it several times in my husband now and it truly is like his body has been seized and he isn't even aware of anything. He did it again today, not directed at me he was angry at someone else and he was asking a question to me about this person in his native language, His body tensed up and he started to talk I think like his father, and I kept answering him in English, and he kept repeating the question over and over, as if he didn't hear/understand me. Finally he understood me, asked another question in his language, which I answered. Maybe after a minute or so I asked him, "Can I help you with something?" and he finally relaxed and answered me in English with what he needed help with.
He actually directed it at me the other night. He had left for his clinic in a pleasant mood and then came home a few hours later and finding I had closed both inside doors, he was too lazy to put his key in the lock and started banging on the door in his language, saying, "Open open!" I opened one door but he got angry and told me to go to hell and told me to come around and open the other door. Then he marched in like Arnold Schwarznegger in Terminator 2 when he goes into the bar naked to take someone's clothes, or in 3 when he goes to take the coffin with the weapons out of the cemetery. This stiff marching walk. He grabbed his blood pressure machine, turned around and walked back out. I called after him to tell him if he needed me to heat up dinner, just let me know, and he said back to me, "Go to hell." I found out from his mother later he was upset about something that had happened with a patient but again, it was very much like his father.
In fact, I remember one time while his father was still alive, I thought he was banging on the door to be let in in exactly the same manner, but it was actually my husband's uncle, they were so alike. We always joke about it because I opened the door in my nightgown thinking it was my FIL and found this strange man standing there and it was only after he told me who he was that I remembered him.
I feel like next time I should address him in his language and just ask, "Who are you?" and see how he responds. I want to see really what happens. Because he really goes into a sort of trance.
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OMG Changing, that would scare the heck out of me.
Not sure I could ask him who he is the answer might be very disturbing.
I have never met my H's father but he was a very violent man.
One time a few days after bd I do remember my H not sounding like himself at all. His voice sounded different, deeper, angry. I haven't thought about that in years.
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C4E, it's funny you mention this, but it reminded me of something I had observed early on regarding the stiff walk/posture.
When our son was very small he had night terrors. He would scream, inconsolable, eyes open as if awake, but he was actually in a sleep state. There was no way to get through to him when he was in this.
One thing I noticed was that he was always very stiff, like a board, when this happened. As an infant he would sometimes also wake up and cry, his neck and body very stiff.
I come from a family of sleepwalkers, but my husband would tell me his brother had night terrors as a baby.
I'm not sure if there is a connection, but the stiff body/altered state is a parallel.
* * * * *
I shared this on my thread but my MLC-H now has twice now, in last few weeks during fairly mellow conversation, accused me of thinking his OW possessed him and is a succubus.
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Interesting theory, I am Catholic and consider myself religious, but i also am very educated and like the church believe rational or scientific explanations need to be ruled out before jumping to supernatural. In my W case I know depression, medicine, neurological disorder, and hormone injections are possible explanations.
That said, I have seen some of the same behavior and the soul less eyes others have seen. I also have seen a spiritual element and can make a case based on past experiences my W has shared with me. First, I have experienced times when W old voice would call out to me, snuggle up to me, or show affection, only to quickly transform into the shark eyes and stop herself and retreat. I felt at times like her old self is a prisoner that is being repressed. The rapid shift and obvious change in her eyes was scary as hell. One night I came home and saw a kind look in her eyes and walked up and started kissing her. After a few minutes she changed, her eyes were different, and she stopped and was mad.
On the spiritual side, W was raised Catholic and started showing more interest as our kids were going through the sacraments. She is a scientific person being a doctor, but she has described several spiritual attacks from her past. She said her grandfather gave her mom some satanic material he found in a woods because he thought it would be cool Halloween decorations, and her mom was big into Halloween. W said she was young but her and her mom had some very scary experiences that she described as supernatural. She described a feeling that someone or something was bouncing on the foot of her bed. She also described beer cans falling in their basement.
As an adult she described a experience at a retreat at an old monetary where the wind blew her window open and something walked across the room and sat at the foot of the bed. She then said her body felt paralyzed and really warm. She said the feeling lasted until she was able to roll over against resistance and bless herself and say a prayer. She said that when she woke up the angel statue on her night stand was on the floor broken. This happened 5 years before the mlc, so I don't see an important connection time wise, but I find it worth noting that she claims these seemingly evidence providing experiences, yet now she rejects religion and is interested in astrology.
I tend to look at other factors, but all five people I know in her office have separated during the last 5 years with young kids. All this could be random, but I did get the house blessed as a precaution. I think faith and reason are connected.
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Whatever the cause, they are acting like a different person. And who CHOOSES to be a different person that is angry, nasty, irresponsible and morally deficient in their middle age? There's something they just can't control anymore and on the one hand that is what is so scary and repugnant about it, and on the other hand, it is what makes me feel so much compassion for my husband. Part of me says this guy is so screwed up and a pain in the ass and I am putting up with something so horrible, but on the other hand I say to myself, he can't help himself and if I lost my mind like that I would want him to show me compassion so I want to bear it because I want to be a good person to him and not walk away from him.
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I don't know Changing, I went back and forth about this.
Are they really unable to control themselves? I know the way they feel is painful, empty and scary so I never blamed my H for how he "felt." But even in this weak state they are still responsible for their choices.
If they really can't control their urges than why have any guilt at all? If the choice was out of their hands
then they had no choice. They blindly had to do what they did.
I'm a firm believer in consequences...AND compassion.
I think we can show then compassion but we also need to let them feel consequences. If they are being Monster or nasty or irresponsible then we can't just hold them up and say well he can't help it. Yes, I feel they can help it but they have to want to help themselves. Is it tough? I'm sure it is. Does it take a lot of courage, of course.
I'm not saying you are doing that, but by being nasty they should feel what the consequences are for those actions. That may not look like compassion from us. It may be turning our backs on them until they can treat us with in a more decent manner. Looks like you have done that a few times. I think it's healthy.
Just my thoughts on it for what it's worth.
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An exert from "The Devil Exists" Pope Francis 4/11/2014 - Morning meditation in the chapel of the Domus Sanctae Marthae
“We are all tempted, because … our spiritual life, our Christian life, is a battle”, the Pope said. This comes from the fact that “the devil does not want us to become holy, he does not want us to follow Jesus”. “Of course one of you will say: but Father, you are so old fashioned, speaking about the devil in the 21st century!”. To this Pope Francis replied: “watch out, the devil exists! The devil exists even in the 21st century. And we must not be naive. We must learn from the Gospel how to battle against him”.
http://english.clonline.org/default.asp?id=867&id_n=20513
Right after BD, I spoke to a woman whose husband had gone through a similar battle. She took my shoulders in her hands and looked me straight in the eye and said
" This is Satan's way of destroying good Christian marriages". I thought she was crazy.
Yet, my husband and I are practicing Catholics, even to this day he attends mass regularly.
There is no doubt in my mind that this is a spiritual as well as a physical, emotional and biochemical battle. We dismiss this as being old fashion...but I have experienced this evil and it is very very real.
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Thunder, you were lucky your husband wasn't heavy monster. But I think for many of us who do see ongoing monster, there is an aspect of how LEC describes. I clearly saw my husband do just what he writes about, almost like he was being pulled back or controlled.
LEC if you compare your wife's experience to Watcher's dream it is eery.
Can someone tell me what "when the beast" means? OW posted this once with a photo my husband had taken on a family vacation pre bomb drop.
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" This is Satan's way of destroying good Christian marriages".
There is no doubt in my mind that this is a spiritual as well as a physical, emotional and biochemical battle.
I couldn't agree more......
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I agree Velika, my H didn't monster much at all...and I'm grateful for that but sometimes being cold and completely, emotionally indifferent can hurt just as bad.
There were times I wanted him to Monster or anything just to show any kind of emotion.
I even pushed it a few times. I think to Monster you have to care. To hate you have to care.
You wouldn't Monster or hate a perfect stranger. There's emotion involved in hate.
Anyway..sorry, that has nothing to do with your topic on demonic possession. :)
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My W could have written what XYZCF just posted. She truly believes that Satan is attacking our marriage. Yesterday at mass she had the rosary that I replaced for her a couple of weeks ago blessed by the priest. She carries it in her purse. Satan is very real to her.
I also agree that it's a combination of spiritual, emotional, physical, chemical imbalance.
Our house has been blessed and she has Holy Water at the ready. Her view is that I'm the one who is currently vulnerable. She was the one who wanted divorce and strayed from the marriage. She has had her awakening and she now feels that I am the one who is susceptible to stray and end the marriage because of her behavior.
The theme at mass yesterday was temptation. Yes, she fell to her temptation with OM. But it got me thinking that I have also fallen myself. It could be alcohol, gambling, drugs, internet or any other vice that one can think of. It doesn't necessarily have to alone be infidelity. It's anything that distracts one from their marriage.
There are many avenues that Satan can take into ones marriage and that is W point of view. I cannot judge her. It's her experience and what she has gone through and feels.
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I'm not saying you are doing that, but by being nasty they should feel what the consequences are for those actions. That may not look like compassion from us. It may be turning our backs on them until they can treat us with in a more decent manner. Looks like you have done that a few times. I think it's healthy.
I totally agree. And I do NOT excuse Monster at all. I walk away, I even challenge him. I've told him monster is not him. That he is better than this. I even got religious on him after his last big blow up and told him how religiously unacceptable his monstering is. He gets no free pass in this regard. OW does give him a free pass. I do not and the fact that she does pushes me even harder to NOT tolerate it. Because no boundaries just keeps him in perpetual monster. And I know that is what stopped his father from abusing him and his mother, the fact that he stood up to him. So really to me it is absolutely essential I don't feed Monster.
But Monster is not the biggest demon our marriage and our relationship faces, to be perfectly honest. Monster is an annoyance, monster is even a threat, but it's something I can mostly deal with. In fact, sometimes Monster feels better than no Monster because Monster FEELS something, even if it is anger, whereas no monster is a zombie. Just as you say, Thunder.
There's something else much more problematic for me and it isn't something I can actually DO anything about. Because it's something he's NOT doing, rather than something he is doing. You can't force someone to do something they believe they "can't" do. If anyone has any idea how you can then I am open to suggestions.
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My only comment is that my wife was deeply religious before MLC...renounced it during MLC...and found her exit and the start of her healing when she found it again.
Before MLC she was devout but not afraid. Like Watcher's wife...Even Now...all these years later, she is still afraid. She will always say the "Satan is Real...Evil is Real...I know because I have seen it and I have lived it". And then she doesn't want to talk about it any further...like mentioning it somehow gives it power.
I know that there was a time I did battle with some Thing that was not my wife and felt out of this world. It was the scariest thing I have ever seen. She was a panting, pacing caged animal that cursed me, God and my children for everything. She did and said things I will never share and try to forget because they simply cannot be real. She didn't eat or sleep for weeks as the hate just consumed her. But once she had burned all the bridges and shined light on all the evil she was doing and living...it was gone. She slept for a week straight after this and had no memory of it then nor now. I can see now what a battle she had to fight to shine that light and I am thankful that she did.
And after reading Law Professor's account earlier...my hair stood on end. It is tough not to believe that there are many forces at work with an MLC'r.
BB
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This is the dilemma, what is the cause and what is the effect. I also wonder at times if we are just making up excuses for bad behavior because it hurts too much to accept that our spouses became really bad people. Then I think why did it happen suddenly and how can a person change so much so fast. I also wonder how could someone be something that they are not for years, and why do mlc's all follow the same play book?
I mean we're not looking for big foot, we all have seen the mlc spouse and observed them in action. The comment the Monsignor made to me about all prisoners justifying their actions and believing that they are victims makes sense, but the full scope of the mlc reevaluation to me suggests more than guilt. Guilt doesn't make people buy cars or get tattoos. Depression makes sense, but why try the mlc play book? I get high stimulation is necessary for a depressed person to have feelings, but why do they lose their ability to think rationally and make logical choices? Meds make sense, but some start after mlc. Hormones also make sense, but why are we so far behind in our understanding of the connection. Spiritual makes sense for believers, but why are other elements present?
I think it could be a combo or one opens the door for the others. I will look to natural explications first, but I won't dismiss others. One side note, I had a weird reoccurring dream in the years prior to mlc where I was in bed with my wife but she didn't want to be married. She wasn't cruel in the dream, she just didn't want to be married. I remember waking up a holding her tight. I now really wonder why I had that dream as it was like the mlc wife being in bed with me but not wanting to be married. No monster in the dream though. Also will add W and I always had a happy marriage.
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I think the cause IS the effect. They are depressed. They do things that they think will help them deal with the depression, and those things in turn make them more depressed. For example, they think their wife is the big source of their troubles. So they get an OW. Their wife gets angry about it or they feel guilty. Now they feel even worse.
One does not need to believe in demonic possession to still see the devil behind this. The devil simply could be leading people to make poor choices. Or the same brain chemistry is playing out in all of them leading them to make the same poor choices. Whatever your belief, the effect is the same.
Just an aside, may or may not be related. My husband just brought a large quantity of tissues. He bought some yesterday and they were like really underpriced, so I told him to go back and buy some more. He brought them by to me just now and we were discussing whether he should go back and buy even more and I just suddenly smiled and blew him a kiss. He stopped speaking, just stared deep into my eyes for a few seconds like he was connecting to me but also like he wasn't sure what was going on, and then resumed speaking about the tissues. I'd never seen that look before. It was really strange. Like I pulled him off into another world for a few seconds and then he pulled himself back. In the past if I did something like this he would have reacted right away, probably telling me not to be silly or not to waste his time.
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I think the cause IS the effect. They are depressed. They do things that they think will help them deal with the depression, and those things in turn make them more depressed. For example, they think their wife is the big source of their troubles. So they get an OW. Their wife gets angry about it or they feel guilty. Now they feel even worse.
One does not need to believe in demonic possession to still see the devil behind this. The devil simply could be leading people to make poor choices. Or the same brain chemistry is playing out in all of them leading them to make the same poor choices. Whatever your belief, the effect is the same.
Just an aside, may or may not be related. My husband just brought a large quantity of tissues. He bought some yesterday and they were like really underpriced, so I told him to go back and buy some more. He brought them by to me just now and we were discussing whether he should go back and buy even more and I just suddenly smiled and blew him a kiss. He stopped speaking, just stared deep into my eyes for a few seconds like he was connecting to me but also like he wasn't sure what was going on, and then resumed speaking about the tissues. I'd never seen that look before. It was really strange. Like I pulled him off into another world for a few seconds and then he pulled himself back. In the past if I did something like this he would have reacted right away, probably telling me not to be silly or not to waste his time.
Good post, I agree depression is the one part of mlc that is an absolute.
I get that depression causes the loss of feelings and the need for high stimulation in order to get desired feelings, but cheating and value changes don't seem to be a direct symptom of depression. I also don't think overt anger makes sense. I know guilt is a factor in those things, but wouldn't guilt also help prevent the bad behavior then? I just can't blame out of control emotions and urges on depression, but perhaps I need more education on the topic.
I feel depression, stress, and anxiety triggers mlc. I think it's a combination that is set off by an event. I feel that we probably have all seen some of the bad traits, it's just in the past they were kept in check by a conscious, good judgment, loft, and reason. MLC regression turns decisions over to the emotions. I guess the demonic or evil part is the intentional pain caused by rewriting history, cheating on, and demonizing the spouse. When someone's thinking and actions become disordered it's impossible to understand one cause when the disordered behavior leads to so many evil and destructive actions. I think depression is an absolute, but I struggle to think that the rest is just a normal snowball effect that follows the same path
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LEC, I struggle with same questions.
MLCers are angry with their spouse but hurt their children so badly. I have observed same indifference to harming our son, however, as I have toward me. For me this is an indication that this is more than psychological; something very extreme must be going on to override all the mechanisms that would have normally let our once loving and caring spouses know something was very wrong with their behavior.
Also, in many cases the MLCer is unapologetically amoral. They are not trying to hide their bad behavior. It is like they truly don't have a conscience. In my husband's world view that he expresses to me, he has done nothing wrong. Occasionally, I feel like he knows he has done wrong but like LC writes is just peeking out watching from whatever is in charge of him.
ALSO: Is it just me or is there major uptick in people joining this forum?
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Velika, I really find your insight and opinions interesting. I think evil is clearly part of the mlc. I don't exactly know how to comprehend the devil, but I think of the devil as a force of evil similar to the Catholic understanding of the holy spirt as a force of good inspiration. Every culture has a similar belief. I guess I think we can explain mlc w/o the devil, but mlc is w/o a doubt evil.
The poster who brought up C.S. Lewis's Screwtape letters hit on something important. First, the autio version is free online and a great listen. Ironically John Clease narraites it. I see the mlc person as just taking marching orders from the devil, and the mlc as basically being finishing school for devils. IMO mlc is the devils best weapon against marriage as it can attack and destroy healthy Christian families. While I'm fairly certain that the mlc is not demonic I feel like evil is an accomplice. Like Velika said, why do they become selfish and hurt the kids as well as us?
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My husband basically is taking a break from his/our morals. He knows right from wrong, and says he will start doing the right thing in 1-3 years. What he is doing now was prompted by a request from the OW and he made her a promise. He's said this explicitly to me. A promise which has no religious validity whatsoever. And everything he is doing now flies in the face of promises he made me. If the devil is in there anywhere, it's in the promises made and broken.
There's something in his head though that makes him think it is necessary that he not do the right thing right now in order to achieve his goals. And he is finding that a lot harder than he expected because a sort of karma is playing out in that regard. Maybe God wants to teach him a lesson. If the ends don't wind up justifying the means, then he's going to really hit a hard rock bottom.
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ALSO: Is it just me or is there major uptick in people joining this forum?
I haven't been around long enough to compare to anything but it does seem there are a good number. I've noticed a number of us seem to suddenly have spouses that are making a bit of progress though. It wasn't like that when I joined a couple months ago.
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I do find this topic interesting. My W really was devout prior to BD. I was the casual religious observer. After BD, she curses her God and the world and basically Monsters against me for 15 months. She also Monstered against her parents. I've already stated how she called the police on me 5 times, attempted a restraining order, and threw me out numerous times. She was downright nasty and abusive. She wanted a divorce.
She spends those 15 months isolated from me barely speaking and had her own version of NC on me. She has a spiritual awakening and finds her God again at month 20 and reconnects with me. This same woman makes me dinner now 4-5 nights a week and we sit and have tea time basically everyday and we discuss our day.
I recognize my W and I recognize that she is still in mlc. She continues to hold fast that we must protect our marriage because it is under attack from evil. She has her moments where she clearly is still foggy, but she always remembers to remind me to be careful and take care of myself.
I would like to know more about what she went through these past 20 months, but currently she is focused only on protecting the marriage. I don't know if we are necessarily working on our marriage, LOL, but she is adamant that we are going to defend it.
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A skeptic would say this is her way of not taking responsibility for what happened. If she has to "defend" your marriage then she is saying the problem came from outside her, not from herself. At least she is not blaming you, but it also sounds like she still hasn't dealt with her issues, whatever they may be.
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Watcher, she seems to believe the mlc feelings and behavior was an attack which is something that the Catholic Church has been really stressing in recent years. The church position is obviously largely focused on the culture and high profile court decisions, but I think mlc and no fault divorce are also a big part of the message, it's just they are not called out by name. They are also not as sexy so they don't get the media attention.
MLC is like profanity, you know it when you see it. My point is evil is very opportunistic, it preys on the vulnerable, but also seems to take pride in taking down devout good people. By this I mean evil is more effective when it destroys a Religious family or a highly respected or holy person. MLC seems to impact good people and families based on what I have observed. I find that interesting and sad that this evil manifests itself in the kind of people I have meet here. My kids are very religious, the older two serve mass and they all wear brown scapular. They are kind to people and try to be good people. The mlc has changed my oldest and my W changing values impacted everything that they knew and trusted. Evil has gained ground with my W mlc.
MLC is evil, it doesn't matter to me what causes it in this respect, because the impact is no different. This is the part that makes me struggle to attribute it all to depression or the effects of depression. I just don't see why anyone would want to destroy the good that exists in their children. Selfishness is evil and mlc is unfettered selfishness. Being selfish and even mean might be able to be reasoned, but the element of evil is very difficult to understand. The changes in my wife's eyes coincided with her personality. That to me is impossible to reason. It was like multiple personalities with the same name. I guess that's what we all struggle with the most. Losing our loving spouse is difficult, but watching them turn evil is pure hell.
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A skeptic would say this is her way of not taking responsibility for what happened. If she has to "defend" your marriage then she is saying the problem came from outside her, not from herself. At least she is not blaming you, but it also sounds like she still hasn't dealt with her issues, whatever they may be.
Basically she could be using the church's logic as an excuse or it is something that resonated with her and helped her understand why suddenly what she believed to be wrong feels right. I guess it depends on what she experienced. If she felt lost and out of control than it's like believing a diagnosis from a doctor in some ways. MLC is so difficult to understand and diagnosis because it is really an attack on the transcendentals. It is impossible to treat values and feelings that are disordered. I guess the nature of mlc is what makes it so difficult to diagnosis. The changes in personality are observable, but not quantifiable. The very nature of mlc makes it appear to be a spiritual attack.
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Good post, I agree depression is the one part of mlc that is an absolute.
I get that depression causes the loss of feelings and the need for high stimulation in order to get desired feelings, but cheating and value changes don't seem to be a direct symptom of depression. I also don't think overt anger makes sense. I know guilt is a factor in those things, but wouldn't guilt also help prevent the bad behavior then? I just can't blame out of control emotions and urges on depression, but perhaps I need more education on the topic.
Anger is the key to acting out. Anger is what lets the MLCer rise above guilt and remorse to say "hey! what about me? what about what I want? F this damn F'in world that has done nothing but take a dump on me! I don't care any more!"
I just talked to my wife last night about this. She was talking to her OM on a chat program and then it suddenly showed up on the phone bill. She did it because she didn't care anymore, she wanted to be caught and I would be the one to end things.. satisfying her guilt and not letting her have to face anything.
By and large, anger is the driving force behind cheating and other immoral things. Those in an MLC feel the universe has held them down and things have just been done to them their whole lives. Anger is the fuel that tips the scales in their favor.. or the illusion there of.
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Good post, I agree depression is the one part of mlc that is an absolute.
I get that depression causes the loss of feelings and the need for high stimulation in order to get desired feelings, but cheating and value changes don't seem to be a direct symptom of depression. I also don't think overt anger makes sense. I know guilt is a factor in those things, but wouldn't guilt also help prevent the bad behavior then? I just can't blame out of control emotions and urges on depression, but perhaps I need more education on the topic.
Anger is the key to acting out. Anger is what lets the MLCer rise above guilt and remorse to say "hey! what about me? what about what I want? F this damn F'in world that has done nothing but take a dump on me! I don't care any more!"
I just talked to my wife last night about this. She was talking to her OM on a chat program and then it suddenly showed up on the phone bill. She did it because she didn't care anymore, she wanted to be caught and I would be the one to end things.. satisfying her guilt and not letting her have to face anything.
By and large, anger is the driving force behind cheating and other immoral things. Those in an MLC feel the universe has held them down and things have just been done to them their whole lives. Anger is the fuel that tips the scales in their favor.. or the illusion there of.
I understand your point on anger, I'm just trying to understand what element of the mlc that anger is a symptom of? I really think you nailed the logic, I just don't know the why. Depression makes the most sense as the driving force behind mlc, I just struggle to understand the behavior that wouldn't seem to be linked to depression. I guess I want to understand why evil is part of their behavior.
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Hi LEC,
I feel this 'evil' you talk about and most likely blamed on the LBS is what the MLCer really feels about themselves.
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Watcher,
I grew up Catholic. I was taught many important life lessons to guide me that I still follow.
I'm not terribly religious today but I do believe God is the answer.
If your W is turning towards God for answers that is a good thing. :)
He will guide her.
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Hi LEC,
I feel this 'evil' you talk about and most likely blamed on the LBS is what the MLCer really feels about themselves.
That makes sense, the anger is them projecting, but is projecting mlc or depression? I guess I see mlc as basically a spiritual sickness in that it really impacts morals, values, priorities, or in other words a persons logic and belief system.
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Could it not just be seen that they are angry at themselves for their own moral failings and are projecting it on us?
MLC I think is a mental illness that has overlap with the mental illness that is depression.
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Could it not just be seen that they are angry at themselves for their own moral failings and are projecting it on us?
MLC I think is a mental illness that has overlap with the mental illness that is depression.
Well put, I think mlc is a mental illness, but the crazy part is that the symptoms seem to be immoral behavior. Like I said it seems to be an attack on the transcendentals, which to me make it seem like an attack on the good or things that are unique to humans. What makes humans different from a spiritual perspective is the belief that we have a rational soul. When the mlc lacks the ability to use logic and love and instead follow a feeling they are no different than a soulless animal following instincts.
To me the eyes being a direct window to the soul is both telling and scary. My W looked like a possessed person at S8 first reconciliation, she was the only parent that didn't go to confession. To me that was obviously guilt, but evil was also a factor.
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Watcher,
I grew up Catholic. I was taught many important life lessons to guide me that I still follow.
I'm not terribly religious today but I do believe God is the answer.
If your W is turning towards God for answers that is a good thing. :)
He will guide her.
Amen Thunder.
It was the getting back to her faith that really turned my wife around. I think it was where she could find some way to release the burden and start to find forgiveness.
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Watcher,
I grew up Catholic. I was taught many important life lessons to guide me that I still follow.
I'm not terribly religious today but I do believe God is the answer.
If your W is turning towards God for answers that is a good thing. :)
He will guide her.
Amen Thunder.
It was the getting back to her faith that really turned my wife around. I think it was where she could find some way to release the burden and start to find forgiveness.
Rejection of Religion was one of the first things my wife did. She can't stand to be in church. She went once when the girls served mass and during the mass she grabbed my hand. She told me afterwards that despite not wanting to go she felt better after going. Unfortunately I was not able to get her to go again. She was dark and cold during S8 first reconciliation and refused the sacrament. I know it's out of my control, but is there anything I could or should do to encourage religion? I left S8 first reconciliation homework for her to help him with but she had D12 do it. I could make her do the retreat with him, but my guess is she will not go. Any thoughts?
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Depression is anger turned inward.
I feel MLCers a very confused. As well as regressed in age. They forget what was taught to them. And rebel heavily just like teenagers.
So anything about religion, morals or anything taught earlier to them is now hidden as well as their love for the LBS and children.
In time, once they heal their childhood issues, things should come back to them with possibly a few changes.
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LEC,
I would not push her into religion. I has to come from inside her.
You however can practice your religion with your children and be a great example for her without saying a word. :)
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LEC,
I would not push her into religion. I has to come from inside her.
You however can practice your religion with your children and be a great example for her without saying a word. :)
Makes sense. It has been difficult since mlc, but I plan to get back in the routine. I have gone to the adoration chapel with the kids. I guess I kept hoping something would click with church since it did the one time. Irregardless of the causes mlc attacks the soul, so I think healing the soul by finding god is necessary. Nothing against non-believers, but in an atheist world view mlc behavior is just non conforming and not truly wrong.
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lol I'm not an atheist, so I can't speak for them yet I can't see anyone agreeing w/ a MLCer's bad behavior lol
Plus a MLCer is the complete opposite of what they once were no matter what they were.
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lol I'm not an atheist, so I can't speak for them yet I can't see anyone agreeing w/ a MLCer's bad behavior lol
Plus a MLCer is the complete opposite of what they once were no matter what they were.
Very true, and don't get me wrong most atheist I know are good people who believe in upholding a moral standard. I think you got my point, but if there was any confusion I will try to clarify. Most mlc behavior that makes it identifiable is a rejection of traits that we identify as good. I guess my point is that these things are universally recognized as good and bad because we assume that there is such a thing as good/bad and right/wrong. That belief is essentially a religious belief.
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I don't feel it's a 'religious' thing at all. The MLCer is a rebellious teenager or younger that wants to push boundaries.
Think back to when you were as teenager. If not you think back to your teenage friends back then.
Rebellious, bad lack of responsible adult behavior.
If it helps you to think it's against 'religion' then think of it that way.
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I don't feel it's a 'religious' thing at all. The MLCer is a rebellious teenager or younger that wants to push boundaries.
I think we agree, I was just pointing out that the boundaries are basically good/bad type behavior. I could be wrong but I don't hear about mlc'ers that because more moral. I guess what is odd about it is that it basically impacts behavior and specifically seems to cause them to reject moral behavior in favor of immoral behavior. The only point I was making about religious belief regarding the mlc traits is that they are basically non conforming or immoral. I never heard of this behavior resulting in some sort of positive improvement according to social norms while the person is in the fog.
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I feel the behavior change is because of the regression in age. Not necessarily anything to do with religion.
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I feel the behavior change is because of the regression in age. Not necessarily anything to do with religion.
I should clarify, I don't think it is about Religion. I agree that rebellious teenager is about age, but my point was they seem to reject good things not bad things. The idea that there is such a thing as good and bad is a religious belief.
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I feel the behavior change is because of the regression in age. Not necessarily anything to do with religion.
The idea that there is such a thing as good and bad is a religious belief.
I don't feel that way. There is good and there is bad. There is wrong then there is right. Who says religion has anything to do with that?
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I feel the behavior change is because of the regression in age. Not necessarily anything to do with religion.
That's fine. There are numerous threads about regression in age, brain chemistry, hormone levels etc.
Velika started this thread with something like, "I know this sound crazy..." then several of us responded with, "hey I witnessed something that I would have never believed..."
I'm not a religious person. I saw a man that I have known for 30 years behave in a way that goes past normal explanation. He was wild eyed, sweating, looked like he was being chased while in bed when I opened the door to ask him something he screamed and jumped in the air then growled at me ( this was during the day he was supposed to be napping) then started panting. I just shut the door, I had no idea how to respond. Our next interaction was about an hour later, which was BD.
I know it sounds crazy, that's why I never brought it up. I'm glad velika did, bc several others on here also had similar stories.
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I feel the behavior change is because of the regression in age. Not necessarily anything to do with religion.
That's fine. There are numerous threads about regression in age, brain chemistry, hormone levels etc.
Velika started this thread with something like, "I know this sound crazy..." then several of us responded with, "hey I witnessed something that I would have never believed..."
I'm not a religious person. I saw a man that I have known for 30 years behave in a way that goes past normal explanation. He was wild eyed, sweating, looked like he was being chased while in bed when I opened the door to ask him something he screamed and jumped in the air then growled at me ( this was during the day he was supposed to be napping) then started panting. I just shut the door, I had no idea how to respond. Our next interaction was about an hour later, which was BD.
I know it sounds crazy, that's why I never brought it up. I'm glad velika did, bc several others on here also had similar stories.
I won't rule it out either. I think people come up with the causes, but why do some of us see the things we see and why does the effect seem to be a rebellion against moral loving behavior?
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I feel the behavior change is because of the regression in age. Not necessarily anything to do with religion.
The idea that there is such a thing as good and bad is a religious belief.
I don't feel that way. There is good and there is bad. There is wrong then there is right. Who says religion has anything to do with that?
The belief that right/wrong & good/bad are real is a religious belief. You can disagree, but I would be curious how you define them w/o god or a higher power. I guess most people that try end up with an infinite regression. As for the mlc'ers, I think you are probably right about the root cause, but I think the discussion here is interesting. I know what I saw with the sudden personality change that was able to be predicted by W eyes was very scary.
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Hi Nah,
The sweating is part of male menopause. Just like hot flashes for female menopause.
LEC,
You're a religious person. Could it be that is how YOU define good/bad/right/wrong?
Yes their eyes change, I've seen it myself. Mostly when My H's is in his 5 year old persona. Sort of wide eyed, innocent curious.
I more follow science as opposed to religion although study religion because it's interesting.
Religious people often come up with a reason such as 'demonic possession' or something like that instead of something scientific that can be proven which is more of what I can relate to.
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I've seen some positive changes in how my husband behaves toward me since his MLC. In fact, he points these out to me when he feels I am upset with him. He truly believes he is being a better person in some regards at least. Maybe it is compensation for the bad, and maybe he is an exception, but I think it is unfair to say they turn all bad and turn their back on morals altogether. It might be more fair to say they pick and choose what suits their image and their needs.
Even if you believe in demonic possession, normally a possessed person does not act possessed all the time. The demon comes and goes. In fact, that is how it becomes so obvious, because it is like they become another person sometimes and then return to themselves.
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Hi Nah,
The sweating is part of male menopause. Just like hot flashes for female menopause.
LEC,
You're a religious person. Could it be that is how YOU define good/bad/right/wrong?
Yes their eyes change, I've seen it myself. Mostly when My H's is in his 5 year old persona. Sort of wide eyed, innocent curious.
I more follow science as opposed to religion although study religion because it's interesting.
Religious people often come up with a reason such as 'demonic possession' or something like that instead of something scientific that can be proven which is more of what I can relate to.
I'm Catholic, and I look to science and natural explanations first. Look at the criteria that the church uses to authenticate miracles. If you like science you would probably appreciate the incredible scrutiny that the shroud of Turin has been subjected to. I find demonic possession interesting. There is certainly some cases that are very difficult for skeptics to explain. I'm not saying mlc is demonic, but I won't dismiss evil as a factor and find the topic fascinating.
As for defining good/bad & right/wrong, i am not using religion because I believe in it, rather I use it because if we really believe in morality then something needs to define it or it's just opinion. If we believe it's purely reason created by evolution than I still question why it's real? Most skeptics answers just kick the can down the road imo.
I enjoy being challenged and think it's healthy for both believers and skeptics.
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The sweating is part of male menopause. Just like hot flashes for female menopause.
Hey thanks for completely disregarding what others are discussing on this thread that someone else started.
Also disregarding that I specifically mentioned hormones on my last post on this subject so maybe I have a clue about male menopause.
No one is saying you have to believe but you can respect the opinions of other posters.
I know what I saw as did Law Professor, Velika, and others.
If you think the idea is stupid, then disregard and go to another thread.
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Hi Nah.
I was replying to LEC. I have no opinion, just doing my best to relate. No need for the nastiness.
Yes hormones are involved. I didn't mean to disregard anything yet again, my discussion was for LEC.
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So when you wrote "hi Nah" you weren't addressing me?
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Hi Nah.
I was replying to LEC. I have no opinion, just doing my best to relate. No need for the nastiness.
Yes hormones are involved. I didn't mean to disregard anything yet again, my discussion was for LEC.
I think emails and message boards are notorious for miss understandings. Even in our exchange I felt like my message wasn't being interrupted correctly, but that was probably due to me not communicating my thoughts clearly. I really enjoyed being challenged by you Ellegance, I feel like if your questioning something I wrote someone else probably is as well. I also like debating someone with thoughtful opposing opinions.
I didn't take anything as being hostile, but I can see how even things I wrote could be taken that way.
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LEC,
I in no way found your comments hostile at all. The only thing I was questioning was with your good/bad thing and religion. I know many people who are not religious yet are extremely moral.
Or maybe I just didn't quite get what you were saying or maybe you just didn't realize that?
i was just trying to understand.
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LEC,
I in no way found your comments hostile at all. The only thing I was questioning was with your good/bad thing and religion. I know many people who are not religious yet are extremely moral.
Or maybe I just didn't quite get what you were saying or maybe you just didn't realize that?
i was just trying to understand.
I also know many non-religious and atheists that are moral. I was just pointing out if you believe in moral absolutes, god or higher power are the only logical explanations. I don't believe you can say something is bad or good without the basis. I'm more getting at the "why" question. We all agree intentionally hurting a baby is bad, but why is it bad. You could say common sense, but a true deep examination requires more. My point is if you believe something to be absolutely good or bad you are basically espousing a religious belief.
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LEC,
I in no way found your comments hostile at all. The only thing I was questioning was with your good/bad thing and religion. I know many people who are not religious yet are extremely moral.
Or maybe I just didn't quite get what you were saying or maybe you just didn't realize that?
i was just trying to understand.
I also know many non-religious and atheists that are moral. I was just pointing out if you believe in moral absolutes, god or higher power are the only logical explanations. I don't believe you can say something is bad or good without the basis. I'm more getting at the "why" question. We all agree intentionally hurting a baby is bad, but why is it bad. You could say common sense, but a true deep examination requires more. My point is if you believe something to be absolutely good or bad you are basically espousing a religious belief.
Not at all. We have LAWS that have nothing to do with a religious belief. Are you saying someone's religion has to do with a law?
The separation between church and state which is in the constitution would disagree with you if you do.
There are universal laws of mankind such as hurting child that would dictate right from wrong and have nothing to do with which ever religion or non religion you choose as well as man made laws.
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I was surprised to see this topic. As I thought this whole time there was a Spiritual Side to the whole thing. H was a Knight in our Catholic Faith,we were always involved in church.We did everything together.
from the beginning, when he began to change. he was still deep into our religion, read the bible every single day. But I could feel the evil in our house if that makes sense. as OW began her take over,she would send food home with him, send him home with Fig tree saplings for Me ( I didn't know her at all)id find quotes she would write in his bible.lots of things.as he got deeper into it with OW,he would insist they were just friends, all the while his personality was changing. from sweet,caring,attentive husband. to someone I didn't even know. By BD, he was someone I didn't even recognize. the black Shark eyes, among other things. he even smelled different.
before BD my engagement ring came up missing. asked him about it. didn't know a thing, I still think to this day he took it and it resides with OW, what would she do with an engagement ring, that was worth maybe $300??before BD I could feel the evil in that house.i made that comment to H, he said I was the evil one, that he was covered and that was my problem?????
the husband I knew would have immediately Prayed for me if I would have said something like that before. H was also quoting scripture on facebook, long long sermons about how God will give you your hearts desire, all you have to do is ask.he even said no matter what you cant go to hell, that God already knows what your going to do before you do it. and your all Good..... ???
Sorry im jumping all over with this story, its been 4 years since and ive tried hard to forget the Horrible Awful and move on. I can tell you, I have never Felt so Attacked by the dark side before or since.
Do I think things like possession,the Devil and the like exist? yes, I did even before the takeover of my H. I also think there has to be some kind of break in ones soul/Psyche for the Takeover to happen. Mental issues,Hormones,FOO Issues.,Alcohol,they are all Breaks.
In H case, alcohol Particularly Burbon Played a part in the whole thing. no matter if he took one sip, or a whole bottle. the effects were Immediate and dramatic,his eyes in particular. he finally had to say that there must be something to that, because I always could tell if he had drank it.
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When and if my H comes out of this and is able to remember and articulate his journey, I could tell you more. He's not religious in the least at all. Yet is extremely moral.
I asked him to please journal his journey so I could understand better.
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Heres another one for ya.A woman I know went thru a horrible time with her H. they had tried for years to have a child.. finally did. things were Great, she had an acquaintance who told her she was into SPells/rituals all that kinda stuff.She was telling her of a particular spell for Love. in which she used these gold leaves as a part of it. well, months went on. this woman became closer to her and her H.
she was invited to a party at their house. all the while her H was acting erratic, doing Crazy stuff, distancing himself from Her and the Child. a total 360 of how he was.
a few months after this party,he left her. She was devastated needless to say.yes he ran off with this woman.
the friend was cleaning house, and while she was putting up some Towels in their bathroom, she moved the existing pile of towels... and out fell...you guessed it 2 Gold leaves... she said she immediately got sick to her stomach and it brought back the conversation she had with the OW several months before about the spells and the leaves...
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Kat0465:
But I could feel the evil in our house if that makes sense.
Perfect sense
I have never Felt so Attacked by the dark side before or since.
I know what you mean.
Thus, I pray this prayer each day:
Hedge Prayer for the Return of a Wayward Spouse
http://saint-mike.org/warfare/library/hedge-prayer-for-return-of-a-wayward-spouse/
I believe that our prayers for them are very powerful and indeed may be necessary for their salvation.
Never stop praying for them.
1 Peter 5: 8-11
8 Be sober and vigilant. Your opponent the devil is prowling around like a roaring lion looking for [someone] to devour.
9 Resist him, steadfast in faith, knowing that your fellow believers throughout the world undergo the same sufferings.
10 The God of all grace who called you to his eternal glory through Christ [Jesus] will himself restore, confirm, strengthen, and establish you after you have suffered a little.
11 To him be dominion forever. Amen.
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XYZF,
thank you I printed up that Prayer.!
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LEC,
I think I get what you are saying.
The Athiest you know, who are good people and live up to their high moral standards, is just that..."their" high morals standards, what they personally think is right or wrong. They get to choose what is good or bad, with the exception of extremes, like killing someone of course.
Moral for one person isn't necessarily moral for another. Morals can change over time. Their mostly personal. You may find it immoral to live with someone outside of marriage, someone else may think if you love someone and are faithful to them then living together is ok, morally. Just two different sets of morals.
With religion there is no choosing or changing. What the church or your religion tells you is right or wrong, good or bad, as in the 10 commandments, that's what religious people believe.
When something like 80% of Americans are religious/Christian it is felt by a majority to be a religious belief.
Is one better than the other? Who knows?
Being brought up Catholic I believe what the Church, and the bible, interprets as right or wrong, good or bad.
It IS religious to me. But I guess it's not the same for everyone.
I would never judge someone who believes differently than me. I only have to live with MY conscience.
All we can do is respect other people's opinions and beliefs, even if we don't agree with them.
I believe in the power of prayer and I believe in God. But we are all free, in this country, to believe what ever we want without judgment.
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At first, I was not sure about saying that prayer..it feels manipulative but I did check with my priest who agreed that it was ok for me to say it.
I had my own experience with a priest who has the gift of healing...I was unable to feel any joy..I was really stuck...I do believe that their were evil influences around me, and I know that through his intervention they were removed, quickly and I have felt differently ever since.
Other things as well...although I have been told and I tend to agree, not to focus too much on the evil one as that gives him too much power.
Even The Lord's prayer acknowledges evil...." and lead us not into temptation but deliver us from evil"
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Knowing most people in here would be religious I try to not talk about my way of life at all. We don't 'believe' in 'marriage in a church'. It would take too much explaining.
So with most everything on this site, I read what someone says and try to put their words into something I can understand in my mind.
I admit 'demonic possession' is something I can't grasp as of yet. So I have no opinion because I just don't get it... so I move on.
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My H had sudden strange behavior after BD, I could tell he was having nightmares and even started humming in his sleep. He would struggle to say I love you when just weeks before he said it easily. The sudden change from love to extreme hatred towards the spouse is just hard to swallow or rationally understand.
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I will try again to clarify. Laws are not moral absolutes, slavery is wrong, it didn't just become wrong when it became illegal. Church doctrine defines morality for members, and members may consider it a moral absolute, but reasonable people disagree and various religions disagree. I'm not talking about a religion in particular, I'm saying to actually believe something is absolutely bad, say intentionally hurting a baby, then you must accept that some things are intrinsically evil. If an action is always bad, like intentionally hurting a bady, then you ascribe to a religious belief. You basically believe that some "bad" or "evil" are more than opinions, you accept that they are real. This is the universal law Elegance is referring to. The reality is an atheist may respect and agree with a "universal law", but an atheist can't claim a "universal law" to be an absolute truth and remain consistent with their professed belief system. Basically no god means good and evil are ideas not absolute truths. I know this is deep, but honestly I have never heard an atheist effectively explain how absolute truth can exist w/o god.
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I think most MLCers do things they would have known to have been wrong -- or at the very least to hide -- prior to MLC. Instead, many are shockingly unapologetic, flaunting affairs and harming their families emotionally and financially with seemingly no ability to predict outcomes.
So even if we take the idea of a universal idea of what is right and what is wrong out of the picture: MLCers are not obeying their own moral code of conduct.
I can see that anger is a huge part of it. I can also see behavioral overlap as well to other illnesses/disorders I have read about, like depression, behavioral variant frontotemporal lobe depression, bipolar, schizophrenia, even sociopathy and NPD. All of these affect the frontotemporal lobe.
I have noticed many observe their MLCers in the beginning being "pulled back in" to something. I saw this very clearly; in the beginning after bomb drop there does seem to be some type of "battle." Once my MLC-H even sent me a note, like he was very far away in a small prison, about how ashamed he was for the things he said to me and the way he had disrespected our bond.
But in the months that followed he said and did much worse things. His writing style changed to an ornate style. His eyes often looked terrified or haunted. They had the expression of someone held captive.
I remember early on he acted like he had to get out of our home, like it was possessed.
I wonder sometimes in his mind I am the evil thing he is getting away from. I think he sees me as evil and dark.
Very provocative discussion!
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Elegance, there are crazy stories of 9 year old girls of average intelligence from humble families having angry outbursts in different languages and using different voices. GB QB Aaron Rodgers gf Olivia Munn became a believer after watching NYPD footage of possessed people while doing research for a movie.
In the Catholic Church miracles are heavily scrutinized by scientists. When a incurable disease or tumor disappears upon visiting a holy site where numerous similar incidents take place and then are examined and scrutinized by top scientists before being accepted, one must at least pause. I've heard skeptics sometimes argue faith/belief allows these people to unlock an ability to self heal that humans haven't yet understood and learned to control. My question is would the healing happen after hallucinating children think they see the mother of god? I think looking at miracles that pass heavy scientific scrutiny is a good place to start if you are curious about supernatural.
Demonic possession seems like a stretch, but I still come back to why is mlc behavior basically all immoral by traditional or even mainstream definition. I don't jump to supernatural, but I think it is fascinating to examine as I clearly saw something evil in W eyes.
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Good point Velika, why do mlc'ers abandon their own values. I also saw a change in W vocabulary, which is similar to the changes you saw in writing style. I guess I'm stuck on evil because I don't know why confused or disordered thinking all ends up being immoral. Why don't they take to positive outlets.
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Thank you OM. I see it better now. I respect all religions, actually I enjoy learning about them.
LEC, maybe I don't understand you your definition of 'immoral'. I see being moral as having good values and sticking to them. Helping those who are less fortunate than you. Being honorable, honest, faithful and loyal to your spouse.
How do you define moral behavior?
I don't call myself a skeptic. I see myself as more of a scientist or one subscribing to a scientific thought process.
Velika,
You asked if the MLCer s running away from YOU and does he see you as evil? Remember, In the MLCer's mind he and the spouse are the same person. And he and the OP are the same person.
The MLCer attributes wrongly the 'evil' side of himself to the LBS, and the angelic qualities of himself to the OP.
So yes the MLCer sees us (the LBS) as 'evil' and want to run away from us. yet Please don't take it personally or actuality because it's just more crazy thinking of MLC. When the fog lifts the MLCer will see all he/she had done, and it won't be pretty at all.
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When I saw the words 'demonic possession' I only could think of the Hollywood version of asking if our MLCer head was spinning backwards, speaking in tongues, spitting green stuff and levitating off the floor.
I just really couldn't get it.
Is that what you meant Velika
They are like a caged animal busting to get free filled w/ anxiety.
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I know it sounds weird but I can tell when my husband is in his monstering stage. His eyes have this really weird empty look in them. It is hard to describe.
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Elegance-Someone who is possessed in the most simple terms acts like someone other than themselves. Their voice or accent may change, their physical posture and gestures may change, their behavior changes. The things that they want or demand or say are not the sort of things that they would normally do. They may not even remember what happened later because it wasn't them who did it. All that is left of themselves is the body itself.
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Elegance, you understand moral and immoral basically the same way I do. Immoral would be selfishly intentionally hurting others, infidelity, destructive behavior like drug use or irresponsible spending, lying. Obviously intent is a factor. The bottom line is i haven't heard of an positive changes occurring during the early stages of mlc.
Moral and immoral can be debated, my point is if you accept something's, like intentionally hurting a baby, is intrinsically (naturally) evil because it is contrary to reason and can never be accepted then you accept that there are moral absolutes, which requires a belief in God/higher power. We can self impose moral codes and obey man made laws or we can violate them, but some behavior is never ok, basically what is true is always true. Once we accept that then we accept that there is a spectrum where good and evil are placed. I think we all agree where mlc behavior changes fall on the spectrum.
If good no evil are absolute we accept god, once we do this almost every culture accepts both a force of good and a force of evil exists in the universe. I think we all would agree our conscious helps us choose good over evil. A change in behavior led by emotions overpowering a persons conscious could be interpreted as animal instincts overriding reason (conscious). A reasonable soul is what makes humans different than animals for most religious. If a mlc'er is acting based on animal instincts it is clearly spiritual disordered to a religious person. Now factor in accounts of the eye changes we observe and it seems like we are looking into a soulless body. Demonic possession is the idea that a soul can be held prisoner while a force of evil takes over the body. Using this logic and the fact that mlc'ers are often described as being taken overburdened the invasion of the body snatchers and you have the logic. I think good and bad are easy to accept as absolute truth, possession takes more faith as you need to believe in personal interaction and also the hard to reason causality of such an event. I just think it's interesting to look at because mlc seems so intent on destroying good and perpetrating evil.
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I know it sounds weird but I can tell when my husband is in his monstering stage. His eyes have this really weird empty look in them. It is hard to describe.
We call them "shark eyes", common for MLCers
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Elegance-Someone who is possessed in the most simple terms acts like someone other than themselves. Their voice or accent may change, their physical posture and gestures may change, their behavior changes. The things that they want or demand or say are not the sort of things that they would normally do. They may not even remember what happened later because it wasn't them who did it. All that is left of themselves is the body itself.
Great answer, very well put. I think we see multiple personalities which is confusing, but I believe multiple personalities use different names and mlc'ers don't. The other part is regression, as Elegance points out we see a younger version of our spouse which feels like a different personality. To me the eye change coinciding with personality changes is the scariest part. I'm sure it could be, or even likely is neurological but I think it's interesting to consider that it could also be spiritual. The fact that they reject values, religion, and love, suggests mlc is a spiritual attack. I'm not saying this is the case, but it is fascinating to discuss.
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LEC,
I highly doubt it's neurological. I agree MLC is fascinating if we weren't the LBS lol. C4E Thanks.
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LEC,
I highly doubt it's neurological. I agree MLC is fascinating if we weren't the LBS lol. C4E Thanks.
Probably true, but I heard somewhere that personality changes in midlife adults are often due to neurological disorders. I was surprised. The person also talked about hormones and the gut. They weren't discussing mlc, but why not as the symptoms fit.
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Hi LEC,
I have an idea where you got that from. A Nerological disorder is strictly having to do with diseases of the central nervous system and nerves only. I don't know anything about gut health.
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I have an idea where you got that from. A Nerological disorder is strictly having to do with diseases of the central nervous system and nerves only. I don't know anything about gut health.
Oh, but our brain bones are connected to our neck bones, and our knee bones, etc etc. Our microbiome influences our stress responses. And everything we consider to be biological (neurological) could also be read as spiritual, as we use our neurotransmitters to think those thoughts which contain our spirituality. We are indeed a $10 bag of chemicals that has managed over the millennia to learn to use those chemicals to debate god, morality and the devil as brightly as happens on this thread, and also to generate the concept of a periodic table of elements with which we then learn to understand our own chemical makeup. I can't think of these ideas as binary.
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I have an idea where you got that from. A Nerological disorder is strictly having to do with diseases of the central nervous system and nerves only. I don't know anything about gut health.
Oh, but our brain bones are connected to our neck bones, and our knee bones, etc etc. Our microbiome influences our stress responses. And everything we consider to be biological (neurological) could also be read as spiritual, as we use our neurotransmitters to think those thoughts which contain our spirituality. We are indeed a $10 bag of chemicals that has managed over the millennia to learn to use those chemicals to debate god, morality and the devil as brightly as happens on this thread, and also to generate the concept of a periodic table of elements with which we then learn to understand our own chemical makeup. I can't think of these ideas as binary.
Neurological/Neurological disorders and Neurotransmitters are two different things.
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Neurological/Neurological disorders and Neurotransmitters are two different things.
The one is comprised of the actions of the other, and the structures that house them. Not as different as all that (though yes I'm simplifying; and yes, fwiw I do study both of these things for a living)
There was a fascinating study of empathy in pre-verbal infants - they showed simple pictures of a green dot struggling to climb a hill, and then two blue dots either ganging up to push the green dot down, or 'helping' the green dot crawl up - and these wee babies actually became physiologically distressed (squinched faces, heart racing) when the blue dots were mean, and smiled when they were helpful. Whether you consider babies to be pre-religion or uniquely blessed, you could certainly sense they knew right from wrong (even before they could know what those words meant!). They were upset to see one object be mean to another, even before they could anthropomorphize those objects as people. That study kind of reaffirmed my faith in the goodness of our common humanity. Whether one ascribes that light to the kindness of god, or an intrinsic feature, would of course vary among belief systems.
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I have an idea where you got that from. A Nerological disorder is strictly having to do with diseases of the central nervous system and nerves only. I don't know anything about gut health.
Oh, but our brain bones are connected to our neck bones, and our knee bones, etc etc. Our microbiome influences our stress responses. And everything we consider to be biological (neurological) could also be read as spiritual, as we use our neurotransmitters to think those thoughts which contain our spirituality. We are indeed a $10 bag of chemicals that has managed over the millennia to learn to use those chemicals to debate god, morality and the devil as brightly as happens on this thread, and also to generate the concept of a periodic table of elements with which we then learn to understand our own chemical makeup. I can't think of these ideas as binary.
Neurological/Neurological disorders and Neurotransmitters are two different things.
Elegance, you have really studied Hearts Blessing and understand MLC through her model. Your knowledge of her writing is very helpful in many threads!
A gentle request however this seems to come up more than once. Hearts Blessing and RCR have amazing descriptive synopsis of MLC. However, some of us want to explore from a different angle -- biological or spiritual, or other way of understanding human behavior.
Juat as I can't say RCR is wrong or HB is wrong -- we simply do not know what is happening to all of our spouses that makes them all behave so out of character and yet so similarly to others who have same symptoms.
Some people believe the earth has been entering a new dimension since 2012 and that time is speeding up and our collective consciousness is shifting. RCR writes a lot about Jung, who wrote a lot about the idea of possession even from a humanist and psychoanalytical perspective. Some people on this forum have heard directly from a recovered MLCer that they felt they had experienced demonic possession. It is truly fascinating, especially to note that just like MLCers often use the same language, recovered MLCers use the same language as well.
Maybe we can keep this thread focused on the discussion of the spiritual aspect of MLC, including how this may overlap with other ways to look at the crisis (e.g. neurological, emotional maturation, etc).
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Definition of neurology for English Language Learners
medical : the scientific study of the nervous system and the diseases that affect it
neu·ro·log·i·cal
/ˌn(y)o͝orəˈläjəkəl/
adjective
1.
relating to the disorders of nerves and the nervous system:
"neurological diseases
Definition of neurotransmitter for English Language Learners
medical : a substance in the body that carries a signal from one nerve cell to another
Thank you Velika, yet I have read more than RCR or HB and very well versed in neurology. I admit I am more scientific then 'spiritual' that is why I was trying to understand your definition of 'demonic possessions'.
RCR and HB have wonderful articles on what the LBS can do and survive. Not so much on MLC. Their articles are about focusing on ourselves. To get our own life.
They are both LBS's that went through this and giving us a helping hand about Self Focus.
They are both back with their H.
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I admit I am more scientific then 'spiritual' that is why I was trying to understand your definition of 'demonic possessions'.
I would like to change the term "demonic possession" to a different terminology. Perhaps evil influence might cover this more broadly.
There was a good article today that might explain what is meant when we are being influenced by the devil
http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/mamaneedscoffee/2017/03/when-the-devil-gets-you-down-and-why-christians-need-to-talk-about-him/
Elegance, you have mentioned more than once that you are more scientific...I am not sure if you think you cannot be a scientist and believe in God and satan. If so, I would like to clarify this.
Several of my Christian friends are scientists, for some reason, many personal friends have phd's and post doc's in physics. Several as well are physicians, nurses and many other careers that are heavily weighted in science.
Religion and science are not separate entities. You can have both faith and also be immersed in science.
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Hi xyzcf,
I meant more of a scientific thinker. It's very hard to explain yet I wanted to know more about what Velika meant.
Thanks for the article, I'll take a look at it :)
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Elegance I feel you are engaging in mild type of harassment.
I think focus of this thread is self explanatory. Please do not tank this thread with semantics debate.
Some people are interested in forces, energy, vibration. This is a thread for that!
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Elegance I feel you are engaging in mild type of harassment.
I think focus of this thread is self explanatory. Please do not tank this thread with semantics debate.
Some people are interested in forces, energy, vibration. This is a thread for that!
I really enjoy this topic Velika. I definitely think it is worth looking at a connection between mlc and evil from a spiritual perspective. I think almost everyone thinks scientifically first, so Elegance isn't unique in that respect,I think the difference is some of us are open to the possibility of a spiritual element being part of the mlc. Obviously natural explanations should be considered first, but I feel everyone is basically doing that. I think some people think they need to choose between dcience and faith, when the reality is they are incredibly compatible. I feel science provides the best proof for the existence of god. This again brings us to a universe with a good and evil force. It you accept the existence of good and evil it is easy to see why someone would question if mlc is being influenced by evil.
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Velika,
Im sorry you feel that way. I'm not doing that in the least I know people w/ a neurological disease I care for.I feel you have the definition wrong. so I went to get the definitions for you. It's hardly semantics.
I am not of your same religion as you so kindly xyzcf answered what I had been asking you for me to understand better. I'm sorry if it offends you to teach me what you mean.
Could you be angry at something else?
LEC,
You've been doing a lot of guessing. No, I'm sorry, I believe in God.
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Velika,
Im sorry you feel that way. I'm not doing that in the least I know people w/ a neurological disease I care for.I feel you have the definition wrong. so I went to get the definitions for you. It's hardly semantics.
I am not of your same religion as you so kindly xyzcf answered what I had been asking you for me to understand better. I'm sorry if it offends you to teach me what you mean.
Could you be angry at something else?
LEC,
You've been doing a lot of guessing. No, I'm sorry, I believe in God.
My comment was meant as, well intentioned, easy going request to just keep the thread focused on initial topic. If you read through you can see there are lots of ways to consist "evil" or "possession" and from all sorts of lines of inquiry, whether strictly religious to humanistic/philosophical.
Yes, we all know there are ideas of science vs faith etc but there is so much we don't know. This can be a fun or a serious topic!
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Velika,
Im sorry you feel that way. I'm not doing that in the least I know people w/ a neurological disease I care for.I feel you have the definition wrong. so I went to get the definitions for you. It's hardly semantics.
I am not of your same religion as you so kindly xyzcf answered what I had been asking you for me to understand better. I'm sorry if it offends you to teach me what you mean.
Could you be angry at something else?
Really??
Asked bluntly, asked nicely. Doesn't matter.
What does it take??
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Velika,
Im sorry you feel that way. I'm not doing that in the least I know people w/ a neurological disease I care for.I feel you have the definition wrong. so I went to get the definitions for you. It's hardly semantics.
I am not of your same religion as you so kindly xyzcf answered what I had been asking you for me to understand better. I'm sorry if it offends you to teach me what you mean.
Could you be angry at something else?
LEC,
You've been doing a lot of guessing. No, I'm sorry, I believe in God.
Elegance, I never assumed you didn't, but you mention that you wanted to understand the topic better. I just wanted to show how a simple belief in good and evil is basically a religious belief if you accept that there is absolute truth. I guess my intent was to provide proof that good and evil were real and then make a connection to mlc. I think we all, atheists included, have more religious beliefs than we think and using consistent logic we can open our minds more. Again, never assumed you were a non believer, but I thought if I approached your questions like I was starting from scratch it would better resonate with you. I like being challenged and thought you were honestly looking for clarity. I didn't expect you to agree, but I wanted to do my best to help you understand my position. I apologize if I took this thread off course.
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I apologize if I took this thread off course.
You didn't at all! I hope you keep posting to this thread.
Sometimes I feel I have gotten so used to new persona of MLCer that I forget how shocking the behavior is initially. I think a huge part of the trauma of LBS is in fact the personality change and "trance like" behavior so many of us observe.
My husband was acting like he was being indoctrinated into a cult when he left. I still remember the sort of dreamy-mesmerized expression he wore, seemingly oblivious/indifferent to the trauma he was causing.
I think any rational person could see this was like a lemming walking toward the edge of a cliff. But how come he couldn't see this? Why act elated as the people he until recently loved the best were so obviously hurt?
Updated to add: Why the "pied piper" effect in post bomb drop MLCer? Has anyone else observed this?
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Definition of neurology for English Language Learners
medical : the scientific study of the nervous system and the diseases that affect it
neu·ro·log·i·cal
/ˌn(y)o͝orəˈläjəkəl/
adjective
1.
relating to the disorders of nerves and the nervous system:
"neurological diseases
Definition of neurotransmitter for English Language Learners
medical : a substance in the body that carries a signal from one nerve cell to another
You provide very simple definitions for English language learners to debate a doctor on the relationship between neurology and neurotransmitters?
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I've been reflecting on this some more today. Whether you agree that the MLCer is possessed or not, there definitely can be a shift in personalities that seem like totally different people.
After a bout of Monster at lunch today, I have come to the conclusion that my husband seems to shift back and forth between 4 personalities:
- The man that I know and loved all these years and who loves me. This one mostly comes out when we are alone together and is pleasant, relaxed and even in some ways more responsible than before.
- The man that chose to take the MLC actions. This one seems to be starting to feel depressed about his life and misses being Personality 1. He's withdrawing and thinking.
- His father. This is the "nasty" demon. This is the one that rages and has the stiffness of Schwarznegger in the Terminator. He mainly comes out with OW, a much lesser extent with me. After telling this personality our relationship was over forever 8 days ago, personality 1 suddenly took the reins back and broke down. I have not been attacked by this personality in 8 days except one time when it told me to go to hell as it was coming and going. But it may have had its mind on OW at the time. I also have seen it once since then talking about OW to me.
- The 18 year old. This one mainly comes out at meals, and makes fun of others at the table. For example, today he poked fun at everyone's teeth, because one has some missing, another has a cracked one, and my teeth are perfect so he made up a lie and said I had two false teeth. He also is obsessed with engaging in detailed criticism of the food that has been cooked. He was complaining about something I made today and I was not tolerating it and he asked me why I was always pushing back at him. I told him because he was embarrassing me in front of everyone else. He said he does it with everyone. I said "yes, and it's not acceptable that you do it with any of us." I got up and left the room. After a couple minutes of putting dishes in the dishwasher, I heard Personality 1 call my name like he was a bit worried about me having left the room.
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Changing4Ever. My Mlcer`s ever changing personality is what I find most hard to handle, especially when he`s been spewing (monster) or been particularly sarcastic (teenager) one minute and then behaves like he was pre MLC the next.
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Changing4Ever. My Mlcer`s ever changing personality is what I find most hard to handle, especially when he`s been spewing (monster) or been particularly sarcastic (teenager) one minute and then behaves like he was pre MLC the next.
How long does the old personality last, and does the old one keep you in limbo? I rarely saw the old personality. There were a few cases where I heard her voice, saw the look in her eyes, but arrows sit sustained. One morning W called me an old pet name she had done and crawled over to me to snuggle, things changed after she got up and she said it was an old habit. I saw someone close to the old personality more, but I frequently saw dazed and confused, rebellious teenager, monster, and narcissistic spoiled brat. I swear it feels like multiple personalities, but they are not named, so that doesn't match up with my understanding of the disorder.
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I think that's from cycling, LEC.
Some do it day to day, some minute by minute. So their personality seems to change with each cycle.
I believe occasionally they cycle into their old personality.
That probably scares the bazeebers out of them. OMG, I just snuggled with him!!! What was I thinking?!!
:o Back to mean me.
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Velika,
It's not a matter of disagreeing or agreeing w/ the devil possession or not, that is just more of a religious topic that I was never taught before in your way. Thank you for explaining what you meant. You started the thread,that is why I asked for your meaning so I can get it more.
I can definitely relate more to different personalities! I was just talking about this today.
Sometimes nice, sometimes mean, just always changing. It's something very difficult to deal with.
In the day is more tolerable than evening/night. I asked someone about that and was told that someone w/ depression and anxiety it's worse at night because they only have themselves and their issues because most people are in bed asleep.
In the day there are more distractions to keep them occupied so they don't think of it as much.
Now, the cycling/ mood or personality changes is another thing that's a problem. You never know what personality is going to come out.
To me is more like schizophrenia. Like that movie Sybol.
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I think demonic possession is generally thought of as being like the Hollywood films, but the priests I talked to about it feel it is more subtle and more like a person being influenced by a dark energy than what was portrayed in the Movies. My W, also someone who considers herself a scientific thinker, recalled an encounter with a spirit where her body became warm and pressure prevented her from moving. Keep in mind she is a physician so supernatural isn't her default. My question is could it be possible that she was infected, for lack of a better word, by spirit or dark energy and then when she was physically and spiritually weak the force/entity took control of her?
I talked to several priests, one a very well educated professor and scientist, and I was told that it is difficult to tell as the personality change could be due to a number of factors, but the immoral behavior, rejection of religion, and embracing new secular values was disturbing. W also became a big believer in astrology which is not condoned in the Catholic Church. I don't think a Hollywood like demon is the issue, but is a evil influence a factor. Interestingly enough the kids now call her the demon sometimes. If the eyes mirror the soul there is evil in her, but I'm not certain about the what and why.
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Since MLC was never classified in medical terms, I suppose the LBS is only able to answer to the best of their ability from knowledge they already know.
Personally, I don't see any darkness or evil in my H. Then again he hides so much of his feelings. He actually had to SAY to me he was angry recently. He wears many masks.
He is not one that monsters much at all. When he's hurting according what I read it's his male depression and projection that is the reason he picks on me.
So I'm probably not the right one to help you because I don't like to speak on what I don't know.
I might suggest talking to someone trained in MLC or a therapist who could help you more. I see it more as a medical/mental health problem than a spiritual one .
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Now well this subject is quiet a topic ermmm where do i start ...I know this might sound crazy to alot of you here but .....
Before ex went into mlc or whatever he s in he got into this strange religion which spoke mainly about demons ,the end times ,the Illuminati etc etc. I was in actual fact terrified .....I was alway a highly sensitive person and i don t mean a sensitive(one that reads fortunes etc etc). ermm so this is a bit hard for me to write down it s the first time i m saying this here .... during this period of time i started to see certain things outside our door i told ex and he days went on and i was at peace (today i believe these were all projections ) until one day I woke up 3am and saw a huge figure on my d s bed (we all slept in the same room and d was not home on this day) this figure was all in black but i could only see his eyes and my house keys dangling in his hands ...his message was "see how i still came in?" Again i told ex and he too was terrified . nowadays ex has the same look in his eyes as this figure has !
Ex left a year later and 9 months later he went to live in another country .....December 2015 i again see this figure and this time the message was "i m still watching you "(same eyes) ....ex h followed me on fb a day later !!!!!!
I m sorry I know most of you might think it s crazy and to be honest i too thought i was loosing my mind .....so don t know if it was me feeling that something was up or a projection of all the horrifying things ex made me watch when he got into this so called religion . Please try not to judge
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Thank you maomina...there is no way to know for sure what this meant, but no you are not crazy.
My one caution as I have been told is to not let the evil one take up too much of our attention or focus.
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LEC,
That's interesting. My W dabbled heavily in astrology and soulmate forums. Initially, did not display Monster after BD. She was herself and we still functioned as man and wife until she ran away. It was when she came home, month 4 post BD, that I noticed the possession. It was a complete transformation.
She introduced OM to her life during those 1st 2 months and I believe the entity took over her. She spent that entire 1st month back(Sept 2015) in her bedroom and we never saw each other. She emerged from it in Oct and exploded. Monster, police, restraining order, removal from house all within days.
I saw the darkness through the 1st 15 months and then I left. I have not seen it since we started talking, now 21 months from BD, but I know that her crisis is not over. So time will tell if it re emerges. She is holding strong with her Faith but it is a battle. We shall see.
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Elegance, I think we all see it more as a medical/mental health problem. I'm just looking at it from a spiritual perspective as an alternative. My W is on meds for depression, mood disorder, and she has injection hormones/pain killers hidden from me that may have been abused. I also know her family has a history of mental illness and sexual abuse. Her father lost his job as a teacher in the early 80's for inappropriate relationship with a middle school student. Sexual abuse and the pain medication both can lead to personality change and both make sense given the evidence. I just don't dismiss the possibility of a spiritual element being at play as some evidence also backs that claim.
Unlike you I see evil, dark soulless eyes, nasty comments, lack of feelings and misunderstanding love, being uncomfortable in church, and abandoning values. I never felt my W was capable of cheating much less breaking up two families. Again, not saying mlc is demonic, just making an alternative argument.
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LEC,
That's interesting. My W dabbled heavily in astrology and soulmate forums. Initially, did not display Monster after BD. She was herself and we still functioned as man and wife until she ran away. It was when she came home, month 4 post BD, that I noticed the possession. It was a complete transformation.
She introduced OM to her life during those 1st 2 months and I believe the entity took over her. She spent that entire 1st month back(Sept 2015) in her bedroom and we never saw each other. She emerged from it in Oct and exploded. Monster, police, restraining order, removal from house all within days.
I saw the darkness through the 1st 15 months and then I left. I have not seen it since we started talking, now 21 months from BD, but I know that her crisis is not over. So time will tell if it re emerges. She is holding strong with her Faith but it is a battle. We shall see.
Good luck Watcher!
I think the stages make sense and explain shifting behavior trends, but the pure evil we see is interesting and certainly raises questions. I think evil impacts religious people more as taking down a religious person would be a bigger trophy so to speak, plus the values cotrast would be greater. Obviously if evil can personally interact with us we don't know exactly how it works, but I would think that evil would attack a vulnerable person just like any other sickness. Obviously our mlc spouses are vulnerable.
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LEC,
I do see lack of feelings and misunderstanding love, and for us, abandoning our culture's monthly meetings.
I didn't realize you call that 'evil'. So yes my H has done the same. It's typical MLC behaviors.
You are fortunate your W takes pills. My H thinks he can handle this without them and it's driving me up a wall ::) Are they working for your W?
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LEC,
I do see lack of feelings and misunderstanding love, and for us, abandoning our culture's monthly meetings.
I didn't realize you call that 'evil'. So yes my H has done the same. It's typical MLC behaviors.
You are fortunate your W takes pills. My H thinks he can handle this without them and it's driving me up a wall ::)
I guess I see evil as intentionally hurting people, breaking sacred vows, breaking up families, selfishly spending $, lying, and having a disordered view of love.
If you believe love is real and not just a feeling of initial attraction, then it is logical to directly relate love to god. If you take a belief in god further than a deist and believe god seeks a personal relationship with you, then you can see God as love. The selfish mlc'ers see their needs as being all that matters, which is the opposite of unconditional love. I guess the logic I'm using is if the opposite of good is evil then the opposite of true marital love (unconditional) is selfishness. I would then by definition capthis disordered way of thinking evil.
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How long does the old personality last, and does the old one keep you in limbo? I rarely saw the old personality. There were a few cases where I heard her voice, saw the look in her eyes, but arrows sit sustained. One morning W called me an old pet name she had done and crawled over to me to snuggle, things changed after she got up and she said it was an old habit. I saw someone close to the old personality more, but I frequently saw dazed and confused, rebellious teenager, monster, and narcissistic spoiled brat. I swear it feels like multiple personalities, but they are not named, so that doesn't match up with my understanding of the disorder.
My P has been in MLC since around 2010 and his pre MLC personality only started showing up again after he returned home last November after being gone for a total of 4 weeks.
I`m sure he had a touch and go with Rock Bottom but unfortunately I made the biggest mistake of my life in letting him come home as he was still uncooked or better said raw. He probably felt safe in the knowledge that I was still there for him, which in return gave him his MLC confidence back again.
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LEC,
Let me expain how I see things. I don't see a MLCer intentionally lying per se. I see them as so mentally ill that is what their twisted and deeply confused brain is telling them. Their perception is WAY off.
They THINK they are telling the truth ::)
As far as love, again it's their skewed perception. It's not us (the LBS) the fell out of love with, it's themselves they no longer love. For some reason the MLCer see us (the LBS) and themselves as one person. Same with the OP, if there is one.
My H actually is just like other MLCers. They literally have no feelings at all. They go on this crazy literal search for happiness outside of themselves.
I have no explanation why it is MLC robs them of their emotions yet, have read once they heal childhood issues their emotions come back. It's not that they don't love us, they do! It's just hidden until they are done 'cooking'.
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LEC,
Let me expain how I see things. I don't see a MLCer intentionally lying per se. I see them as so mentally ill that is what their twisted and deeply confused brain is telling them. Their perception is WAY off.
As far as love, again it's their skewed perception. It's not us (the LBS) the fell out of love with, it's themselves they no longer love. For some reason the MLCer see us (the LBS) and themselves as one person. Same with the OP, if there is one.
My H actually is just like other MLCers. They literally have no feelings at all. They go on this crazy literal search for happiness outside of themselves.
I have no explanation why it is MLC robs them of their emotions yet, have read once they heal childhood issues their emotions come back. It's not that they don't love us, it's just hidden until they are done 'cooking'.
I appreciate you the explanation. I think your view is very plausible and probably way more likely than the alternative view being explored in this thread. Please don't think anything I wrote was dismissing other views it was more exploring a different angle or perhaps just a different element. Our councilor wanted W to see a physicist as she suspected sexual abuse. W never mentioned any abo, but she also never mentioned her dad getting fired for inappropriate contact way child. Her aunt did talk about being sexually abused by her brothers as a child. I suspect childhood issues are part of the problem. She even told me she had issues from childhood to work through but wouldn't discuss.
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My H has childhood issues he won't discuss also. He doesn't have to discuss them with me. Whatever they are he's go to heal from them. Yet the is the major goal of MLC, from what I read.
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maomina,
That was a very scary story and I don't think you're crazy at all.
I've had strange things happen that I can't explain. I think a lot of people have.
Dabbling in weird religion acts like that I think can conjure up evil, in my opinion.
LEC,
I can't really comment much on this alternative view, which is the subject of this thread, because I never saw evil in my H.
I saw the dead, black eyes, but not the Monster anger and rage.
Interesting discussion, though.
New thread
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=8813.0