Midlife Crisis: Support for Left Behind Spouses
Archives => Archived Topics => Topic started by: Anjae on November 01, 2016, 03:53:08 PM
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Starting a new thread, the first one reached 150 posts.
Link and blog post:
Reconciliation: If You Stand, Will Your MLCer Return?
http://loveanyway.theherosspouse.com/standing-and-divorce/reconciliation_will-your-mlcer-return/ (http://loveanyway.theherosspouse.com/standing-and-divorce/reconciliation_will-your-mlcer-return/)
October 27, 2016
A guarantee does not exist for reconciliation and right now, more situations end in divorce than in reconciliation. There are still reconciliation stories and the forum is filled with success stories because reconciliation and being successful are not mutually exclusive. For your hope, my husband Chuck came home and we have since adopted 3 children and are foster parents to an infant as well. Reconciliation is not impossible, but even if you Stand perfectly, your MLCer may not choose to reconcile with you—that will not be your fault! I am not trying to destroy your hope in saying that; what I am trying to do is give you a dose of reality as it is now. Go into this with your eyes wide open.
In the beginning, Stand as a Grace Period to let yourself heal before making a decision. After a Grace Period, make your own choice about what to do, Stand for your marriage and choose your terms for a possible reconciliation knowing and accepting reality or choose to stop Standing; the choice is yours!
Are there things you can do to improve your chances of reconciling? What might or might not improve the odds toward reconciliation?
Time
There are some who have this idea that if you just stay the course your MLCer will eventually come out of MLC and return.
Reconciliation is not a stage of MLC; it’s not the main thing that happens when an MLCer wakes up and realizes what they have done.
The passage of time does not carry some magical meaning or formula. Your MLCer will not simply come out of their crisis someday and want to come home.
Consider the reconciliations you know about, how much time was there from Bomb Drop to Reconciliation? Most reconciliations happen in the early years. That is not to say that they do not happen later, but the odds go down with time.
Waiting Patiently
Your MLCer is not more likely to return home simply because you wait and wait and wait for years and years—or even if you don’t spend that time waiting. Though patience is important, waiting is not a method that will get you to your Big Goal. Victims and stuck people wait. Life will pass you by while you wait. Standing is not still; Being is still; Standing is active and about living. Unfortunately, people do Stand by waiting rather than by continuing to live a full and joyous life—and yes, I do understand and accept that recovery to an active and joyous life takes time, but it is not supposed to take forever.
Healing and Personal Empowerment
Marriages do not reconcile—at least not to successful stability—with a betrayed spouse who has not healed and become stronger. Marriage is not about two people completing each other! A secure marriage is built on two complete individuals coming together to share each other’s lives; being whole is the job of the individual. Each person will heal on their own timeline and recovery is unique to each individual, but some people use that as their excuse for remaining stuck and failing or refusing to heal. Pull yourself together, stand up and take responsibility for your recovery. The faster you become strong, the faster you become an attractive force.
Healing improves the odds of reconciliation.
Healing leads to positive change.
I want to be sensitive to your individual path to healing. This is a place in need of a Tough-Tender balance because too Tender may lead to coddling and enabling an LBS to remain in the early stages where you become stuck. Too Tough and I could alienate an LBS who may then refuse further guidance or I could push them too fast for their present abilities which can damage self-esteem.
Do the odds for reconciliation increase with an LBS who detaches and heals faster? MLC has a timeline of its own, but will an LBS who detaches and heals quickly, accepting their own Mirror-Work, inspire an MLCer to do the same? Don’t get me wrong, healing is important for you; the benefits toward reconciliation are secondary, but maybe that is what will motivate some of you to detach and heal. If what I said above is true and the odds of marital reconciliation go down with time, it would seem prudent to take your personal healing and health seriously now.
Please understand, healing will not guarantee reconciliation.
You can do everything perfectly and your spouse may still not want to return to your marriage, but it does improve the odds because healing is a requirement for a healthy and stable reconciliation. It’s also the thing you need to do if you choose not to Stand–so Standing or not what you need to being doing is the same. This MLC marriage crisis thing is not your fault and neither is resolving it: it is not within your control. But your healing, that is within your control! Healing is empowering; there is no downside.
Education
Identify the problem. This can take a while. In the moments, days, weeks and maybe even months after Bomb Drop you may have searched for a purpose or reason. What has happened to my loving partner? Did we have problems that were this serious in our marriage? What is going on? Why is he/she doing this feeling this way? Who is that madman in my husband’s/wife’s body? These are the questions you ask over and over as you try to understand and make sense of this shock. They grip you and send you off on tangents as you find something that fits pieces, without quite fitting everything.
Is he a narcissist?
Is this an exit affair?
Is she right, did we have a bad marriage?
Now that you have identified the problem—midlife crisis— you finally have something to learn about that may help your situation move forward by educating yourself just enough to answer your basic questions: what’s happening, what does it mean, why is this happening, what can I do…?
Then stop! Or redirect more energy toward your personal education or learning and your own Mirror-Work rather than midlife crisis, because focusing on the latter could keep you attached to the situation and your MLCer and prevent you from progressing forward in a healthy and positive manner.
So which is it, does education improve the odds of reconciliation, have no effect or decrease the odds?
It depends on where you focus your learning. Education can be helpful because it can lead to understanding which can enable empathy. An MLCer typically does some terrible things that will hurt you deeply. Understanding the psychology behind this can help you to continue to apply the Unconditionals. Education is also beneficial in that having some answers allows you to stop obsessing over not knowing and redirect focus back onto yourself. But it can work against reconciliation if you fail to focus more of your energy toward your Self and instead keep your energy focused on midlife crisis and your MLCer.
Mirror-Work
This is related to and part of healing. You need to heal your broken heart from the effects of Bomb Drop and Monster. Mirror-Work goes deeper; it is a personal journey exploring you. Focus your energy on you. Your spouse is not and was not your everything and if you feel as though they were your reason for living, please speak with a mental health professional and make yourself a priority.
Mirror-Work honors you by giving you the time to be you and learn what that means—who are you? It takes many forms and has many facets. Healing and detachment are pieces of Mirror-Work, but so are meditating, journaling, dancing, singing, hiking… An important aspect of Mirror-Work is to discover the creator in you. Do this by exploring and playing with different activities. It might seem lavish to spend this time not only on yourself but also doing activities that may seem frivolous because they are fun and may not fit into what you consider functional.
Transitions are about change. Your spouse’s midlife crisis is a transition that has forced you into a transition as well. Mirror-Work is how you learn who you are becoming and who you want to become through this journey. No, it will not guarantee reconciliation, but it will empower you and enable all the Self positives like worth, confidence, esteem, control… and a person with high Self-levels has increased odds for reconciling.
Boundaries
We teach people how to treat us; the boundaries we set let people know what is acceptable to us and what is not. Without boundaries, you open yourself up to abuse—whether intentional or unintentional—because people will take advantage of you.
Boundaries are much more than rules for how to treat a person. They help us to separate who we are from others, giving us personal control over our identity. They enable us to establish limits in relationships, protecting our self-image and thus preserving our integrity. A person without boundaries looks externally to define their value in this world because without boundaries they are unable to tell where others end and they begin; such a person defines themselves as someone’s parent, husband, child, sibling, employee and their persona revolves around meeting that definition.
A person with boundaries is capable of saying no. There is nothing wrong with trying to please others until you do it at your own expense. Put the oxygen mask on yourself first–put your needs first, but Self-First is not only for emergencies. Self-Care is self-preservation and self-maintenance and keeps you energized for giving care to others without feeling exhausted and eventually resentment.
There are no guarantees that a person with strong and loving boundaries will reconcile their marriage, but someone without strong and loving boundaries is not yet a whole and healthy person and thus not able to do the work needed to build a healthy relationship with someone else. Get your relationship with you in alignment first. Having strong and loving boundaries improves the odds of reconciliation.
Agapé and Love Them Home
I love these. The problem is in the application or what you consider these to be. Loving them Home, in theory, is something that improves the odds of reconciliation Unfortunately some people’s idea is more about dismissing a person’s sins with excuses. The same confusion exists regarding forgiveness. Agapé and forgiveness are both unconditional, but that does not mean you should apply them in the absence of rules, boundaries, consequences or accountability. The problem is not with loving them home, it is with the idea that unconditional love means you should not hold your MLCer responsible due to the confused and unstable state of MLC (during which they may be easy prey for an alienator) or they are too fragile to handle the consequences that come with being held accountable. Stop making excuses for your spouse! Or stop making the excuses excusable.
Go back to what I said above: we treat people how to treat us. Failing or refusing to set or maintain boundaries enables a person to avoid Mirror-Work and denies them the opportunity to make amends and repair the damage they have caused. Instead, they may feel entitled and believe there is no damage.
Ironically it is not uncommon for those applying agapé in this manner to also be more judgmental; sometimes vacillating between seeming forgiveness without consequences and resentment, anger and judgment.
Loving them and Standing are not about preserving a home and waiting for them with open arms. Move forward and rebuild your life, becoming an attractive force that may interest and inspire your MLCer to do their own Mirror-Work to catch up. If they do not—someday—become motivated to catch-up, it is not because you failed. If they do become motivated to catch-up and yet are still not interested in reconciling, you still have not failed; they still get to choose.
Loving them home from a distance, where you do not deny them accountability for their actions and are not intruding, controlling or smothering can certainly improve the odds of reconciling.
Reconciliation is Not Guaranteed
You probably already knew that there was not a guarantee of reconciliation, but some of you may not have realized or accepted that the odds are at this time stacked against you. I’d love for us to change that, but let’s face it, that goal goes against society. Those who are the most susceptible to the idea of a guarantee tend to be those who base their Stand on a religious platform. Ask and ye shall receive is not an unlimited promise without conditions. I cannot tell you why God works as he does or how, but I can tell you that no amount of praying or hardship or perfect behavior will give you a guarantee of reconciliation on earth—Heaven is another matter and I have not been granted that level of knowledge or understanding.
previous thread: http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=8353.0
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Good Afternoon Law Professor,
Using your cancer analogy, if I choose --already knowing that the odds are low-- to continue my chosen path of treatment, should the Doc (and his assistants) keep telling me that the odds are not in my favor? Where does patient choice and agency come into play once the odds are shared?
If one chooses the path of treatment, the doctor would not keep telling the person the odds are low since it was already discussed once ("already knowing the odds are low").
However, in this case, I am not aware that RCR ever came out directly and discussed this. Therefore, one could say the "doctor" did not "keep" telling the patient that as this was the first time.
Source: http://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/stand_how-do-you-stand.html (http://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/stand_how-do-you-stand.html)
RCR wrote [bold emphasis mine]:
I want to make it perfectly clear: There is no guarantee. You can Stand until death and your spouse may never return. The same things in similar circumstances will have varied results. I don't know the statistics regarding returns--there may not be any and if there are I would be skeptical as to their accuracies, since coulds, what-ifs and maybes cannot be measured with accuracy, and since statistics may not include the different strategies as data points relating to success. Possibilities are not probabilities; it is possible to Stand alone and achieve reconciliation. But I also feel it is important that at the point of true return it is no longer a solitary job; there needs to be a point where both spouses work together in partnership to rebuild their marriage.
How is that not clear enough?
Similar language is stated in the Legal Disclaimer that shows up on every page in the forum [bold emphasis mine again]: "Any information, stories, examples, articles, or testimonials on this website do not constitute a guarantee, or prediction regarding the outcome of an individual situation."
And if many of the patients --who are part of the cancer center patient community-- say "hey... that's not so helpful when you tell me what the odds are" [because we already know the odds suck for this horse race] .. why would you disparage their voices/feedback to improve patience care?
The problem there I would suggest is that not all or even most patients may feel that way. The doctor has an ethical duty and legal duty to provide all information necessary to make informed decisions. Since party x does not want to know, does that mean I should also not be told because it may offend party x?
I don't believe anyone said they were offended, more so a patient's preference.
That all said, I'm super confused. What exactly are you and Airmid both advocating for? Everyone sign a disclaimer that they acknowledge know the odds are low (if we even had supported statistics) before reading her articles or posting here?
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I wont try to answer for LP; but me personally I think the two latest revaluations should be mentioned in the main article at leaat ONCE (to the best of my knowledge they are not at all), just to inform the newcomers exactly what they are up against.
As to the statement that says there are no guarantees, the reason it isn't sufficient is onw could interpret that statement to mean 1 out of 10 will not r, or 1 out of 10,000 will not r. You could take away what you WISH to take from that statement. It could mean not everyone will r, but infer that 'most do'. Or you could infer the opposite: not everyone will r but 'most won't '. Its not a clear statement at all.
-T
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As to the statement that says there are no guarantees, the reason it isn't sufficient is onw could interpret that statement to mean 1 out of 10 will not r, or 1 out of 10,000 will not r. You could take away what you WISH to take from that statement. It could mean not everyone will r, but infer that 'most do'. Or you could infer the opposite: not everyone will r but 'most won't '. Its not a clear statement at all.
-T
TN, how would you cite the (unsupported) statistics? What if the odds are closer to 10-15%? What if they are lower than 5%? That's the thing, we don't know what the statistics are regarding returns. Neither does RCR.
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I agree. I don't know where those actual numbers came from (it wasn't from RCR), but I do believe in her generalized recent comments about probability of success being low (paraphrasing) and dwindling with time. But its IMPOSSIBLE to place actual numers on.
-t
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Terrified, I agree with you. RCR has done a bang up job with this site.
I have read her articles more than once over the years. Each time gaining more knowledge on MLC and how it effects us and our MLCer.
I gained a lot of insight into to how to handle things. What to do and what not to do, any why, but it had to pertain to my situation.
I found good strategies to try to see if they worked or not.
The ones that did work I kept, the ones that didn't I left behind.
My H did not have an alienator. So my approach was different than if he had.
Everyone story is so unique. There is no one size fits all.
I found the NO talking about relationships helpful. I found that being intimate (when no ow was involved) was helpful. I found no expectations was helpful. GAL outside of my H was helpful.
But they were helpful for me, not everyone.
I appreciate the more realistic approach. I didn't want fluff.
I found getting a life and living like he wasn't coming back very useful. I didn't like reading it but it was true. I didn't want to waste my life waiting.
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It is already mentined in several places that there are no guarantees.
No one, not even RCR, knows the real nuimbers/percenatge. It would not make much sense to have those in the main page/article because no one knows if they are accurate.
Also, we are starting to see several members having their MLCers getting closer to them several years down the road. So, who knows how things will be in 1 year? Or 5 years, or 10 years.
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I don't think anyone is asking for statistics to be posted...again I don't even lnow where that came from. A simple statement such as "the odds of a successful r are low' would suffice imho.
Also, as I said above, the statement 'there are no guarantees' is NOT sufficient enough because although accurate, you can READ from that statement what you wish to read such as 'oh okay....not everyone will come put of this with their marriage intact but probably most do'.
The interpretation is completely up to the reader as to whether they choose to read that statement as a glass half empty or half full mindset.
-T
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"the odds of a successful r are low' would suffice imho.
This would be a total hope kill. It would also require further explanation.
For me the reason why the odds are (seem to be) low is because most of the times the LBS will no longer be interested in a relationship with the MLCer when the MLCer is finally out of the tunnel. I have said it over and over and over in the board, the lenght of MLC and the lengh of human life are not compatible.
But, of course, that is how I see things and that is my experience from real life, reading the board (there are many racounts from MLCers posted by LBS, we have threads with MLCers views, plus what members who have had their own MLC said, Sewing22 comes to mind).
I also need to factor that we do not know what is/has been going on the life of many board members because they stop posting. Some of us are still in contact with board members, and some members who no longer post are seeing their MLCer getting closer. However, those stories do not show in the board. How do we count? Just by the people that are still here? All members?
RCR may see the odds being low for other reason(s). Which of the reasons is the right one? No one knows, because it depends of each person experience and of how each of us reads/interpret things.
The site main page is simple and covers the essencial. The rest can be found in the articles and blog posts.
Odds can be a funny thing. My grandmother shouldn't had survived the stoke and epileptic seizures she had in the hospital. She did. But then she may not make it a week. She did. Then it was, she may not live more than a week home. A month tops. We are on our way to two months home. It She is far from well, but there are small improvements. She is 96 and a half, so, in any case, time is against her, but if I would had paid attention to the odds (or be frightned by them), I would had give up and would had not done the massages and limb exercises that have been helping her.
For the records, I think a MLCer coming out of crisis and reconcilliation are two different things. In my view, most MLCers come out of crisis, but most marriages will not survive a spouse MLC. I have listed the main reason why it is so for me.
However, HS and other similar sites may help increase the odds. The information is useful and can help people understand what they are dealing with.
I'm a glass half full person.
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I did a lot of digging on return rates a couple of years ago and was almost burned at the stake here for even suggesting Return rates were rare. Rates of remarriage with a former spouse across the board was around 6%, the majority of them had been apart for over 20 years. It stands to reason that if you filtered out all the other reasons for divorce other than MLC, the return rate for MLC spouses is tiny...
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A little off the subject..
Anjae I was glad to read the update about your grandmother. God bless her. And you for being an aid and comfort to her.
And after these last few years I have become a " Be grateful you have a glass and there's something in it" kind of person. :P :)
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Braveheart, wanting to return, or reconciliations? They are two different things.
A few years ago it was probably too soon to have a good idea of thing.
We are now on a timeline of MLC average 3-10 years, HS is 6. Early on the timeline of MLC average was, I think, 2-5 years.
How did you did the rates if we do not know the info on many members? What criteria did you use?
Thank you, In It. :)
When I used grandmother as an example, and said I am doing things to help her, I was not suggesting we should be doing to help our MLCers or try to influence their crisis. I was refering to the odds and how sometimes things may not confom to those odds.
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I did a lot of digging on return rates a couple of years ago and was almost burned at the stake here for even suggesting Return rates were rare. Rates of remarriage with a former spouse across the board was around 6%, the majority of them had been apart for over 20 years. It stands to reason that if you filtered out all the other reasons for divorce other than MLC, the return rate for MLC spouses is tiny...
I'm sure this is true but there is a major confound here. Many mlc couples don't divorce. So they wouldn't be captured in remarriage rates.
I think it's clear to most of us that the odds are against us. I know when he firstBD me I thought I just had to love him back but it was very quickly clear to me that was not to be.
The problem with batting around rates, odds, etc without true study is that we cannot control for the many variables that exist in a relationship. Are reconciliations low because the mlcer truly doesn't want to return home, had too much pride to admit he/she was wrong, is afraid he/she will be rejected by the LBS, the LBS is so longer interested, one of them dies? Hard to know without investigating the nuances of situations. It's also hard to use the posters as anecdotal evidence because so many stop posting and no one knows how their situation ended up.
I need no reminder that the odds are against me. I live that everyday I live apart from my H. My choice to stand is not about odds but about a belief that my marriage is worth my time. In the meantime, I use the time to figure out who I am without him and how to learn to love the life I'm living right now.
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Good evening Hand Puppets,
The legal disclaimer addresses that there are no guarantees, meaning reconciliation, meaning the entities that make up the forum cannot be held legally responsible. That is not what the blog post discusses.
This is the first blog post where Rcr discusses in some detail the issue and states her position clearly with little room for interpretation or misunderstanding unlike the comment cited.
How is it not clear enough?
Because Rcr decided it is not based on her observation and interactions on her board.
2nd did you notice T in Tennessee's statement? He's not even close to being the only one who feels/felt this way.
Patient preference? OK. Since party x's preference is not to know/discuss etc, does that mean I should also not be told when my preference is to be told?
As to advocating, I have no idea if Airmid is advocating anything or something.
I am advocating support for Rcr, her right to write this blog, and her right to publish it on her forum first of all
Second, I support the idea that this forum speaks to all members, not just a certain subset, and that includes standers, non standers, and those unidentified or in between the markers at present principally as related to the discussion presented by Phoenix some pages back on the previous thread.
Third, I am advocating full knowledge availability. Adults have a right to have the best information that is currently available to them to help them make informed decisions. It is their responsibility to make use of the resources available to them, weighing, considering and or discarding pieces that they decide are either important or irrelevant to them. Or perhaps somewhere in between I suppose. In that vn, is the idea that deciding what a poster should be able to read or judging what they should not hear is disrespectful, patronizing, controlling and even infantalizing. It takes away their right as adults to exert control of their lives and their futures. The person reading has to decide for themselves what to focus on in the readings. My opinion.
The exception is that Rcr has a right to decide what she wants on her forum. And readers then have a right to choose to participate or not.
Unnecessary to respond to the silliness as to the waiver comment.
Lp
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My statement about "odds of successful r is low" would indeed be a hope kill. I don't write as eloquently as RCR. But there *HAS* to be a way of keeping hope alive, WHILE at the same time being honest about the chances of success. I am not the one to figure that out, but there HAS to be a way.
Anjae, you make it sound as if the people who no longer post could be successful r stories, and they chose not to return and put it behind them. True. Its possible. Its also possible they moved on with their lives, and chose to put this all behind them and never r with their former spouses. I get what you are saying about you can't look at just the active posters and come to any kind of conclusion-but I disagree. Its a "sample group", just like we use "sample groups" in my business to determine ranking. Just like the polls use "sample groups" to determine who is in the lead in the political race. Is it a 100% fool-proof way to measure something-no of course not. But I do believe it to be a fairly accurate representative of measurement of a larger group.
I've seen it mentioned several times that there is NO WAY to come to any sorts of conclusions because there is just no data on MLC. What about those that "stay stuck in the tunnel for the rest of their life"? I have seen it over and over again that those MLCers "are the exception". That those MLCers that stay stuck are "rare". Really? Well, if there is no accurate data on MLC, how would we know? Maybe MOST MLCers stay stuck....The point I am trying to make is, you can't have it both ways. Either there is a sufficient enough "data" from a control group to form some opinions or there isn't. Which is it then?
I know we often bias our opinins based on our own unique circumstances. And YES, my opinion on this matter is very much biased based on my OWN circumstances which is this: Had I have known the odds were low in the beginning, I might have handled my situation very differently and came out far better. Again, maybe I read things into the articles there weren't there; maybe I interpreted certain things wrong. I don't know. I am not the sharpest knife in the drawer, so I appreciate a more "direct" approach. And as I stated many times before, although it is CLEARLY STATED "there are no guarantees", that is an ambiguous statement for the reasons I already mentioned above. And the way the articles came across to ME was that eventually there was a good chance that this madness was all temporary [but lengthy].
Using someone's stage 4 cancer analogy above, lets say the person with cancer required many expensive surgeries or treatments to combat the cancer. Maybe that person doesn't want to burden their family with enormous medical debt if the chances of successful treatments are low. Maybe they just want to live out the rest of their days as God sees fit without human medical intervention. Of course maybe they don't care about the odds and want to do anything they can to have a fighting chance. The point is, unless they know exactly what they are up against, they can't make an informed decision. Doesn't mean the doctor has to constantly remind them chances are they aren't going to make it. Just have that serious discussion ONCE, make an informed decision and stay the course.
I realize this site is all about HOPE. No one wants to dash hope. But as someone who found this site via google search, it would have been nice to have been armed with as much info as was available ALONG with providing hope.
-T
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The people who continue posting do not count as a sample group as in political polling because they are not randomly selected. They only way that would work is if we looked at all active posters and then randomly selected a percentage of those to see what stage of the process they were in. That would probably be interesting data. Even then however the info isn't always reliable. For instance I see many cases where the mlcer is more present, etc but it's not yet known if they are reconnecting. That's part of why it's hard to quantify because the answer if what's going on often becomes apparent in hindsight.
I do think many people who either reconcile or stop standing also stop posting which definitely skews the information available. I saw someone just today say that they don't post as much since they reconciled because mlc is no longer so central in their lives.
RCR has developed well thought out theories based on her personal experience and anecdotal evidence of people she has encountered. Those theories have no guarantee and currently have no quantifiable data to support them. That does not make them useless - quite the opposite. Many theories fail to be proven. It yet make sense anecdotally. I have nothing but the utmost respect for the work involved in developing the materials present here BUT I shudder when I see statistical statements made that are not supported by research.
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RT-I get what your saying, and I agree this isn't a scientific certainty just by looking at the forum, BUT I still think it to be an accurate depiction of the odds.
Throughout this thread (and the former) we have talked statistics, odds, whatever you want to call this data. Lets go back and look at EXACTLY what RCR wrote:
"A guarantee does not exist for reconciliation and right now, more situations end in divorce than in reconciliation.... Most reconciliations happen in the early years. That is not to say that they do not happen later, but the odds go down with time.".
I am not saying that RCR has some magical powers and is all knowing here, but I trust her research on the matter. I guess really the only thing that might put all this statistical stuff to rest would be to ask RCR herself where she drew the above bolded conclusions. For me, it doesn't matter. I trust her info. I only wish it would have been presented sooner.
-T
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ask RCR herself where she drew the above bolded conclusions. For me, it doesn't matter. I trust her info. I only wish it would have been presented sooner.
I'm with you TN. Knowledge is POWER! If you don't like what you are reading STOP... don't read it! There is so much GREAT information, so many different people, there is somebody for everybody here. Go read their stuff! That's what I did, picked through lots of threads before I found some to my liking. We don't have to agree on everything.
Hugs Stayed
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I have been contacted personally by four people who were very regular posters on this site who have since reconciled but decided not to post details. They also asked me not to post on their behalf so I have respected their wishes, although I admit to asking more then once for an update so others know there is hope.
I personally don't understand not wanting to shout from the rooftops if my H decided to come out of the tunnel but everyone is different and it's good to know that many here have reconciled but find the pain of MLC too much to keep coming back to update.
I honestly believe if you want reconciliation enough and keep hope in your heart, that it is possible, especially in the case of MLC because the problem was never one of the marriage in the first place.
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I too know 5 reconciliations from this site that either no longer post or post very rarely. I think the average among them is 4-5 years post BD. I've asked them sometimes to post updates too, but they've just moved on! That's the magic of time.
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Braveheart, wanting to return, or reconciliations? They are two different things.
A few years ago it was probably too soon to have a good idea of thing.
We are now on a timeline of MLC average 3-10 years, HS is 6. Early on the timeline of MLC average was, I think, 2-5 years.
How did you did the rates if we do not know the info on many members? What criteria did you use?
Thank you, In It. :)
When I used grandmother as an example, and said I am doing things to help her, I was not suggesting we should be doing to help our MLCers or try to influence their crisis. I was refering to the odds and how sometimes things may not confom to those odds.
Number 1. The idea that a substantial number of MLC'ers wanted to come back, but could not because their X had moved on or would not take them back is pure speculation by some members of this forum. It's largely anecdotal stories someone heard from a great Aunt or cousin.
Number 2. It really does not matter what the statisitics are for members of this forum, other data is available. What it tells us is reconciliations across the board for divorced couples according to a number of studies on marriage, divorce and remarriage run about 6%. Of that number, how many were MLC related does not matter, even if every marriage split was caused by a MLC 6% is 6%.
Number 3. All time lines posted on this forum are speculations. Of the studies I looked at Reconciliations with x spouses happened either relatively quickly ( within the length of the divorce process or shortly after) or well after any timeline suggested on this forum, many of them 20-30 years after they were originally divorced.
All this information can be found pretty easily visa a websearch under marriage and divorce statisitics. I believe I did post links to the Data way back the first time I brought this up close to five years ago.... Not many liked it then either, but it is the reality we are dealing with.
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Here is a list of board members who no longer post but are reconciled or in reconnection (by now, it is possible those in reconnection are reconcilled, but I do not have info on them). Their stories are in the Inactive Story Threads board. Evas still posts, but on others threads, not on her own.
To those, it is necessary to add reconnecting or reconciled members who stories may be on the annual stories and have stop posting, and the ones who never got purple. Be it because purple was not around at the time or because they have stop posting and we do not have an update.
If those dark and light purple threads were on the main board, the main board may look a little different. But there is not enough space and Inactive Stories get archived.
Reconciled (dark purple):
HappierDaysAhead22 - http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=6076.0
hyperglad - http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=5394.0
Resilient - http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=6680.0
evas - http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=5813.0
Mamma Bear - http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=5731.0
marriagerecovery - http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=3971.0
Patience - http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=2144.0
Sassyone - http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=2728.0
ForeverStander - http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=5242.0
Reconnection (light purple):
emerging_butterfly - http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=4615.0
eternity - http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=6561.0
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The beauty of life is that it is LIFE -- not just statistics. This site was always that bit different from the other MLC sites which definitely had more of a "there's no point, as reconciliations are so rare".
If one doesn't see the possibility of a reconciliation of course behaviour is going to be different. I don't see HS as peddling false hope (as other forums have accused it of doing), I see it as pointing out that there CAN be hope. That having hope is fine, as long as it isn't a crutch that prevents the LBS from living.
There is so much valuable information here, especially about how to respond, not react, the unconditionals, all things that improve our lives immeasurably.
When all this happened a number of people said "well, I could never get past what he/she did to me, so don't even think about trying". But having hope also means having hope for our own growth.
The lessons I have learned here have helped immeasurably in so many difficult situations in life, I can be grateful for that even if my H hasn't returned. And all because they let me see that there CAN be a way through.
And to add to the many views on why the odds go down with time; one possibility is that in the case of MLCers who do a lot of damage, the more time passes the more damage they can do. And the more damage the LBS can do, actually.
Hence the need to detach and protect ourselves, which is what this site teaches.
It will be interesting to see RCRs responses to these threads!
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I said nothing about a hidden agenda, and haven't even suggested there is one. I said nothing about the mentor team.
I realize I have a direct way of speaking. And that directness is obviously viewed as criticism, when it is not the intent. I'll work on that.
Perhaps if the lens on me were more one of recognizing that my comments also come from a place of care and support, that would also help.
Onward - my use of hidden agenda was not in response to your comments but a general statement for the post.
The mod/mentor team are one and the same in practice. If you note most of us have moderator under our names but we are actually all mentors in the first instance with limited moderation tasks, should we choose to use them and that usually means merging short threads etc. It is ultimately Anjae and OP who have much higher moderation level.
So when you mention the mod team you are also referring to the mentor team.
I absolutely agree with you that your comments are coming from a level of support and care. Your threads have always been interesting and enlightening.
Re speaking directly - that's your style and there are quite a few members who do speak very directly and thank goodness they do. Challenge is with any forum as LP or Phoenix stated ages ago - you cannot control how those words are interpreted by the reader and tone of voice cannot possibly be heard either so there is always always going to be mis-interpretation.
So what I am about to say is with a soft friendly but firm tone.. ;D ;D I chose to defend RCR and the team because I thought (note I thought) that you did not have the facts about the way the team works and wished to clarify a few points. My personal response was that I felt (note I felt) that you were criticising the team and RCR which I personally felt was unfair.
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The beauty of life is that it is LIFE -- not just statistics. This site was always that bit different from the other MLC sites which definitely had more of a "there's no point, as reconciliations are so rare".
If one doesn't see the possibility of a reconciliation of course behaviour is going to be different. I don't see HS as peddling false hope (as other forums have accused it of doing), I see it as pointing out that there CAN be hope. That having hope is fine, as long as it isn't a crutch that prevents the LBS from living.
There is so much valuable information here, especially about how to respond, not react, the unconditionals, all things that improve our lives immeasurably.
When all this happened a number of people said "well, I could never get past what he/she did to me, so don't even think about trying". But having hope also means having hope for our own growth.
The lessons I have learned here have helped immeasurably in so many difficult situations in life, I can be grateful for that even if my H hasn't returned. And all because they let me see that there CAN be a way through.
And to add to the many views on why the odds go down with time; one possibility is that in the case of MLCers who do a lot of damage, the more time passes the more damage they can do. And the more damage the LBS can do, actually.
Hence the need to detach and protect ourselves, which is what this site teaches.
It will be interesting to see RCRs responses to these threads!
Love this! Especially the line about having hope also meaning hope for our own growth. I agree!!!!!! When I came here it gave me hope that I would make it out of this. Not necessarily as a reconciled marriage but certainly as a better woman.
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Anjae,
NotGivingUpOnU is also reconciled with her husband.
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as is evas.....
But to respond to Reallytrying -- When I came here yes, what I wanted was a reconciled marriage. I still do, even though I recognise that it really may not happen. We can want many things that we can't have....
But learning to become a better person is the bonus, that which will help us live a much better life in all ways.
And having hope, rather than begging, is what actually does make it all possible.
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Anjae,
NotGivingUpOnU is also reconciled with her husband.
Yes she is but she has a current thread on the community board,
this was a list of people with no current threads.
If you click on the PURPLE icon at the top of the board it will give you the current list of people.
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Sada has also reconnected. As I'm sure there were others that have not been on the board for some time.
TrustandLove - thanks for your post. That was very well said. 8)
Edit - she has a thread on the forum currently - OP
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Thank you... I don't often find myself expressing myself very well, perhaps that day I did better :)
But I wanted to add something: When I said "having hope also means having hope for our own growth", I should have added:
Having hope ALSO means having hope for our own ability to forgive, for our ability to have compassion, for our ability to do the work that would be necessary for a reconciliation to work.
It is different ways of saying the same thing: that we need to get healthy, for if our MLCers do return it may not be easy (OK, probably won't be easy), but that we should trust that we CAN do it.
Probably not as eloquent, but I hope the idea gets across...
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Here is a list of board members who no longer post but are reconciled or in reconnection (by now, it is possible those in reconnection are reconcilled, but I do not have info on them). Their stories are in the Inactive Story Threads board. Evas still posts, but on others threads, not on her own.
To those, it is necessary to add reconnecting or reconciled members who stories may be on the annual stories and have stop posting, and the ones who never got purple. Be it because purple was not around at the time or because they have stop posting and we do not have an update.
If those dark and light purple threads were on the main board, the main board may look a little different. But there is not enough space and Inactive Stories get archived.
Reconciled (dark purple):
HappierDaysAhead22 - http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=6076.0
hyperglad - http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=5394.0
Resilient - http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=6680.0
evas - http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=5813.0
Mamma Bear - http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=5731.0
marriagerecovery - http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=3971.0
Patience - http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=2144.0
Sassyone - http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=2728.0
ForeverStander - http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=5242.0
Reconnection (light purple):
emerging_butterfly - http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=4615.0
eternity - http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=6561.0
I'm following this discussion, but have not jumped in because quite honestly, I haven't fully worked out where I am on the whole thing.
But I'm glad Anjae provided this list and I did want to add that I sometimes read the archived discussion threads and when I read a comment that resonates, I always look at the profile of the person who commented. (On a side note, I do really, really wish more people would complete their profiles and also update them as time goes on - although I know everyone is busy and that's not something that is usually on the top of anyone's priority list!)
Anyway, I very often see profiles where the person was last active years ago but their status shows living apart and rebuilding, or rebuilding, or something similar.
One I came across last night was a member named Rebel Yell who has not been active on the forum since 2014.
I think I will just start keeping a running list of these and post it.
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One I came across last night was a member named Rebel Yell who has not been active on the forum since 2014.
Yes he was re-connecting with his wife and she was aware of this site, and he needed to leave and have his threads moved to a safe spot.
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But I wanted to add something: When I said "having hope also means having hope for our own growth", I should have added:
Having hope ALSO means having hope for our own ability to forgive, for our ability to have compassion, for our ability to do the work that would be necessary for a reconciliation to work.
It is different ways of saying the same thing: that we need to get healthy, for if our MLCers do return it may not be easy (OK, probably won't be easy), but that we should trust that we CAN do it.
This is very, very true. Just had a discussion today with IC about this.
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Following this discussion with great interest, but honestly feel a little awkward posting (being in the purple). Tolstoy said "All happy families are alike; each unhappy family is unhappy in its own way." ...but my experience as an LBS was very similar to everyone else's (script, no?), and my experiences during rebuilding don't seem to overtly overlap with many others. So I don't comment or post often.
Is it important to have hope? Even if it's faint? I'd vote yes, in this context; there are enough websites out there that can tell you how to dump the bum, how to never have a relationship with a loser again, how to effectively cut your losses and move on. Safe, conventional, easier. This is the only place I know that suggests how to craft a new life for yourself while in limbo; how to strengthen legs that haven't been walked on for a while; how to forgive yourself while also (perhaps?) permitting you to forgive your MLCer. None of that requires reconciliation, true. But some of it needs at least the hope of eventual reconciliation, to make the hard personal work feel worthwhile at the outset. And yes, eventually we transfer that feeling of hope into hope for our own growth, rather than our spouses'. It took me a helluva time to realize this journey was all about me. I kept turning my head covertly to see if my H was following (and he never did, dang it). Think he only got off his duff and started walking forward when I was well out of sight, and he had no choice but to eat my dust or move.
The only difference I perceive between the aforementioned approaches, and this one, is that Standing is a term of grace that permits one to recover from despair without bitterness. Whether we choose to share that recovery with a recovering spouse is (in some cases) our gift. In some cases, time and space and bumbling slow recovery do put that out of reach (but that's not a failure of the original premise). Each longterm Stander's thread here tells a story of grace and serenity, painfully hard-won (quite irrespective of their eventual marital status).
Fwiw my job regularly requires breaking bad news, with lousy statistics, and counseling patients. "It's not likely to work" isn't a phrase I'd start a conversation with. It might be required later. Much later. The difficulty is, we all will encounter RCR's essay at different points in our conversation on MLC, and may be varyingly ready to hear it. And in the end, what happens to each one of us in life is not a statistic; it's our N of 1, and 100% of our personal outcome, however vanishingly rare the likelihood of that particular outcome might have been from the start. So even at that point, quoting the stats doesn't help.
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Great, thoughtful post osb. You make so much sense.
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Wonderful post, osb.
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I haven't had a chance to read all of the reconciliation links yet,
but were any of these reconciliations after divorcing? or were they all
still married / separated or even still living together with the treat of divorce.
I plan on reading them when I get home.
Thanks,
Speed
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I made the decision early on that I did not wish for my now ex-spouse to return. It had nothing to do with statistics....which are just meaningless numbers in this case, and more to do with the fact that since he ran away in search of a better life for himself, my life has become my own again. I freely admit that in the18 years I spent in the company of his toxic personality, I slowly let it seep under my own skin.
It has more to do with a person's particular position and situation, rather than playing the numbers game. One must take an honest, open and often painful look at themselves to be sure where they stand.
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**Disclaimer: What I'm about to post means nothing.
I'm in total agreement with all that has been said about mirror work, self-focus, standing doesn't mean standing still, etc. I'm reading all with great interest.
Today I was procrastinating for an hour instead of starting a very boring work assignment. I read through the first 12 pages of the members list.
**Again, this information means nothing...or something, or everything, depending on how you look at it:
There are 30 members listed on each page.
In the first 12 pages, I collected a list of 17 members, 15 who have not been active in years, whose statuses were "rebuilding."
At least 1 per page, or at least 1 in 30, which, again, means nothing scientifically or really otherwise.
There's no way to know if the 15 inactive members successfully rebuilt. There's no way to know if they were not successful either.
In addition to the 17 rebuilding, I also found 3 with statuses of "home after a brief separation."
Maybe those became successfully rebuilt marriages.
Maybe those were failed early returns.
Who knows?
The majority of inactive members on those first 12 pages had not filled out their profiles.
So do I have a point? Not really. Just that
a) I really, really, really wanted to avoid my boring work project. :P
b)we don't know what happens to a huge majority of members, but
c) there is hope, especially if you look for it, and
d) the most important thing is still focusing on ourselves, protecting ourselves, taking responsibility for own happiness, knowing who we are and what we want for ourselves, moving forward and, if we want to remain standing, choosing to see hope...even if sometimes it appears to be hiding itself from us.
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There are 30 members listed on each page.
In the first 12 pages, I collected a list of 17 members, 15 who have not been active in years, whose statuses were "rebuilding."
At least 1 per page, or at least 1 in 30, which, again, means nothing scientifically or really otherwise.
There's no way to know if the 15 inactive members successfully rebuilt. There's no way to know if they were not successful either.
What board were you looking at, Nassau? There are only 9 pages when logged-on (logged off, to my knowldege does not allow for profile info to be seen) on the Community Board. The person on the Community board who has the thread that was used longer ago is No doormat, last posted March 23, 2016, last active March 27, 2016.
That was some months ago, not years.
Are you talking about the Archives? There is an Archive for each year 2010 to 2016 and an Archive for Inactive Stories.
As for people having rebuilding on their profile, it may not mean much. People put on their profile what they think their situation is, not what it may really be. That is why purple icons are to be used only with permission.
This said, we do know that some are reconnecting and reconciled, but had stop posting.
Speed, 31, one of HS mods/mentos is divoced and reconciled. You can find her most recent thread here: http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=6789.0
The links on the list on this thread are only for people who are no longer posting. Here is the link for the board reconciliations stories that we know of (it may incomplete since there are many threads in the archives and, in the past, there were no purple icons): http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=1872.0
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**Disclaimer: What I'm about to post means nothing.
I'm in total agreement with all that has been said about mirror work, self-focus, standing doesn't mean standing still, etc. I'm reading all with great interest.
Today I was procrastinating for an hour instead of starting a very boring work assignment. I read through the first 12 pages of the members list.
**Again, this information means nothing...or something, or everything, depending on how you look at it:
There are 30 members listed on each page.
In the first 12 pages, I collected a list of 17 members, 15 who have not been active in years, whose statuses were "rebuilding."
At least 1 per page, or at least 1 in 30, which, again, means nothing scientifically or really otherwise.
There's no way to know if the 15 inactive members successfully rebuilt. There's no way to know if they were not successful either.
In addition to the 17 rebuilding, I also found 3 with statuses of "home after a brief separation."
Maybe those became successfully rebuilt marriages.
Maybe those were failed early returns.
Who knows?
The majority of inactive members on those first 12 pages had not filled out their profiles.
So do I have a point? Not really. Just that
a) I really, really, really wanted to avoid my boring work project. :P
b)we don't know what happens to a huge majority of members, but
c) there is hope, especially if you look for it, and
d) the most important thing is still focusing on ourselves, protecting ourselves, taking responsibility for own happiness, knowing who we are and what we want for ourselves, moving forward and, if we want to remain standing, choosing to see hope...even if sometimes it appears to be hiding itself from us.
Thank you, Nassau. For those of us who like statistics, it's wonderful when someone else procrastinates at something else ;) enough to gather some stats for individual use when we don't have the time to gather such stats ourselves.
Multas gratias vobis ago.
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Good points Nassau.
Thinking back, if I needed hope I went looking for it and no amount of reasoning would have convinced me.
Also, Disraeli?: "There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics."
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There are 30 members listed on each page.
In the first 12 pages, I collected a list of 17 members, 15 who have not been active in years, whose statuses were "rebuilding."
At least 1 per page, or at least 1 in 30, which, again, means nothing scientifically or really otherwise.
There's no way to know if the 15 inactive members successfully rebuilt. There's no way to know if they were not successful either.
What board were you looking at, Nassau?
Think it was the Members pages: http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?action=mlist
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At the beginning of the year I went through the members list (it was to kill time inbetween xmas and new year and when I was looking for some inspiration and hope)
Adding to Nas's stats post, I also found threads which were not lilac or purple or where the status had been changed to "home and rebuilding". I found stories where the status may have said "done" or been left as it was when they joinedo and yet the LBS was reconnecting with their spouse or their spouse was home, there wasn't many but there were some and I didn't even go through all of the pages.
I am not into peddling false hope here but I believe there are more reconciled MLC couples than we think, some LBS's like Seeking has not changed her icon to lilac and still feels she is in a touch and go.......hopeandfaith was missing off the list of lilac purple icons, so was Rainbowgal I think.
Then there is withgodshelp who reconciled after 6 years and her H had a baby with his BP OW.
I think I started compiling a list of reconciled threads I will see if I can find it.
But the main reason for revisiting this thread is because I too have been thinking a lot about this subject since I last posted and in my view, there are a lot of people saying things along the line of wishing they had known all the information at BD, saying its more realistic to tell newbies their isn't that many reconciliations, those who think its important the LBS knows from the off what they are up against etc etc.....
I know everyone comes from a point of trying to save another person from going through what they went through or are still going through, I know everyone on here feels the pain of newbies BUT you are further on in your journeys and so I think, IMO you are sitting judging this from a stronger view point
you are looking back.....................and we all see things differently with the benefit of hindsight.....
I also want to make another suggestion here.......there have been some who have mentioned about the board having members who are discussing dating and have queried whether this is the place.....personally I don't have a problem with this, these people still love their spouses IMO but they have been forced into moving on and this is what they have chosen to do, it is part of the LBS journey some will have.......it doesn't mean under the veneer these people are not still missing their spouses or not still hoping for reconciliation.
This has always been a safe place for them so its natural they want to stay here as their journey continues and as this site matures there will be more at various stages and by keeping people posting we may even get some more data on returns.
This site is maturing and maybe the current set up is outdated where all our threads are just put together in one huge list
So my suggestion is to may be have a place on the site for various stages of people to come together....
newbie people
Parents
Divorced LBS's
Dating LBS's
and maybe even a section for MLC'ers
and also a café section were some funny humorous things can be put to give this all balance
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As I mentioned in my last post here is the list of reconnecting or reconciled user ids I compiled from here
This was early this year, there maybe more
1994 - M
31 counting
adult condor
affaircare
almost there
angelgirl 4/11
Azione
Back to me plus 2 2015
barbiedoll 2013 dec
battlefield 2013
bennhurr
bernall 2015
Blindsided
BonBon
Chloe77
Crazyforhim
dadspearl
destinyschild
eternity
Evas
feelingbetrayd
finding nemo
FI foolish idiot
flybelove
foreverstander
foursiordias
Gallagher
Herefornow
holdinon2hope
Hope4ever
hopeandfaith
hopeful2
Hopelessly Optimistic
Howmanytimes 2015
hyperglad
JD
JustFine&Dandy
kappy
karmirtsaghik
kindler
kylique
Looking4Hope
Mamma Bear
Mermaid
Midlife Madness
neverg1veup
NoLongerHandlessMaiden
NotGivingUpOnU
OSB
Opportunity to Grow
Patience
primwluv
RainbowGal
really???
Rebel Yell
Resilient
rubyhearted
sada
Sassyone
Seekingpatience
SleeplessnSville
smileonmyface
Smitty2929
standingmale
StandingScared
Stargazer313
stayingthecourse
Stepping Stone
STP
Strong girl
Strongerthanthat
summer progress
superdog
SWH
Terry1957
The Navigator male not many posts
The New Me femaiil not many posts
tigrlily12000
Trying to hold on
Undaunted
Verrat
WarriorSprit
watching and waiting
windrow
Windsofchange
wondering
WorkInProgress4Life
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1t, I understand what you are saying, but I see Anjae's blood pressure going up. lol
She does so much of the technical stuff on this board and to add all these different type's of groups would be a lot of work for her.
The way I look at it is, if a person doesn't like a thread, just ignore it. If you read an article that doesn't sit right with you, there are so many others that will.
I don't think giving people a little reality is bad. Possibly it may help some.
I don't think it's bad to point our a lot of MLCer's don't return. It's the truth. I think RCR put it in a gentle but honest way.
Of course newbies don't like to hear that, none of us like to hear it, but I think giving too much hope is bad too.
From day one I knew the chances were not in my favor but I thought my H would be different so reading that wouldn't have changed anything for me. That was "other" MLCer's, not mine. ::)
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Stp is no longer reconciled.
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Stp is no longer reconciled.
When I read accounts of those that were in R a while ago I got the impression that there was a lot of Rug sweeping on the part of the LBS, their spouses still messed up and potential false returns. Female MLC'ers appear very unlikely to return.
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OK so I counted 87 people many of whom are already on the lists that we already have, some are not reconciled, some we have never heard from again.
So now what does it mean?
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I thought one of the points of this forum was NOT to have many different boards.... before this one existed I was on another one where there was just that, the categories suggested above, and it really was unwieldy. And people would jump between categories; those with CBs would jump from reconciled to not to back again.... it was very hard to follow.
One of the lovely things about this board is the way we keep one thread for a long time, it makes it easy to follow someone's story, and yes, if you don't want to read about dating, for example, you just don't read that person's thread!
But back to the original topic, of course we all know that there are fewer reconciliations than not, but here, this forum, is where I thought we were safe in playing the long game. Everywhere else tells you to give up.
In one of her intro articles RCR says that she believes that there would be fewer divorces if more people took a stand. And that is what so many of us are here to do.
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OK so I counted 87 people many of whom are already on the lists that we already have, some are not reconciled, some we have never heard from again.
So now what does it mean?
Nothing....I just said I would put it up here and I have
and the idea about the board was only a suggestion...that's all
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OK so I counted 87 people many of whom are already on the lists that we already have, some are not reconciled, some we have never heard from again.
So now what does it mean?
Nothing....I just said I would put it up here and I have
and the idea about the board was only a suggestion...that's all
OK - thanks for your effort.
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From my reading, MLC is a process that has little to do with what the LBS does, or doesn't do. It's mostly all about the MLCer's emotional maturation. If the MLCer doesn't ever heal whatever brought them to MLC in the first place, then reconciliation won't happen. And if the MLCer does the required work, then the natural process is reconciliation.
I feel this site is wonderful in teaching the LBS to keep the focus on us and the children, and let the MLCer heal and grow into full emotional maturity that was compromised, not by the MLCer , yet from whatever traumatic event in their childhood that stunted their growth.
That's my understanding.
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My only point was that we are responsible for our own happiness, and that includes our own choice to have hope.
Some days I admittedly view the situation as absolutely hopeless.
I can also choose to look for hopeful signs in the information presented. But at times when I feel all hope is lost, nothing I read does very much to make me more hopeful.
I could dig up 500 possible "rebuilding" members and still not believe my H and I will be together again.
When I'm feeling hopeless, I can't expect any one of you fine people to give me hope. That's on me.
That said, I do agree that seeing stories of successful rebuilding is very helpful. It not only can give a newbie hope - if they choose to have hope - but these stories provide extremely valuable insight into the whole process of MLC and what might/could happen after the madness of replay ends.
If someone on this site reconciles, I'm extremely happy for them, and I love reading about reconnections and reconciliations, but it doesn't really give me hope regarding the outcome of my own situation because my situation is unique to me and my MLCer.
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When I'm feeling hopeless, I can't expect any one of you fine people to give me hope. That's on me.
Here is the thing that I can guarantee.
You need to be hopeful in YOURSELF!
I can guarantee you success in that endeavor.
Stop trying to be HOPEFUL in a relationship that you have no control over.
Any relationship is a 50/50 proposition and even if you give 125% in that you
may or may not get to reconcile.
HOWEVER if you give 125% towards yourself I guarantee that you will be successful!!
MY .02
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of course we all know that there are fewer reconciliations than not, but here, this forum, is where I thought we were safe in playing the long game. Everywhere else tells you to give up.
In one of her intro articles RCR says that she believes that there would be fewer divorces if more people took a stand. And that is what so many of us are here to do.
Amen, I totally agree.
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Attaching...
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When I'm feeling hopeless, I can't expect any one of you fine people to give me hope. That's on me.
Here is the thing that I can guarantee.
You need to be hopeful in YOURSELF!
I can guarantee you success in that endeavor.
Stop trying to be HOPEFUL in a relationship that you have no control over.
Any relationship is a 50/50 proposition and even if you give 125% in that you
may or may not get to reconcile.
HOWEVER if you give 125% towards yourself I guarantee that you will be successful!!
MY .02
This says it all to me. Success is all about YOU!
Hugs Stayed
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I agree too, but...I want to make a suggestion that may be unpopular. Since the focus of the site really has progressed more toward "hope in the LBS" instead of "hope in the marriage reconciliation" - The forum tag (and not referring to the main site) "Dealing with Midlife Crisis and Infidelity When You Don't Want a Divorce" should be changed to something like, "The HS Forum - Where Standers, Spouses, and Those Moving On Come Together to Heal." Just my .02 to keep the overall mission on point.
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I agree too, but...I want to make a suggestion that may be unpopular. Since the focus of the site really has progressed more toward "hope in the LBS" instead of "hope in the marriage reconciliation" - The forum tag (and not referring to the main site) "Dealing with Midlife Crisis and Infidelity When You Don't Want a Divorce" should be changed to something like, "The HS Forum - Where Standers, Spouses, and Those Moving On Come Together to Heal." Just my .02 to keep the overall mission on point.
R2T I love you and you are very wise, but this make me sad to the pit of my stomach. If I had seen this when I was new, I wouldn't have gone any further with the site. I did not want a divorce. I wanted support for standing and I wanted my marriage back. I wanted to learn about midlife crisis and infidelity as well. It was the tag that got me to look further into this site. It was that tag that got me to read the articles which are fabulous. It was learning about script and how to handle contact and how to respond and not react that helped me stand. I'm very grieved that the forum is changing its focus. :'( Just my .02 as well.
((hugs))
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R2T I love you and you are very wise, but this make me sad to the pit of my stomach. If I had seen this when I was new, I wouldn't have gone any further with the site. I did not want a divorce. I wanted support for standing and I wanted my marriage back. I wanted to learn about midlife crisis and infidelity as well. It was the tag that got me to look further into this site. It was that tag that got me to read the articles which are fabulous. It was learning about script and how to handle contact and how to respond and not react that helped me stand. I'm very grieved that the forum is changing its focus. :'( Just my .02 as well.
((hugs))
I actually 100% agree and would probably not have stayed here either. :( I just have this "bait and switch" feel about what is up front versus what we're actually doing as a support group.
And I will take those hugs! :)
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I actually 100% agree and would probably not have stayed here either. :( I just have this "bait and switch" feel about what is up front versus what we're actually doing as a support group.
And I will take those hugs! :)
I am glad you said this as I do not feel that it is a bait and switch.
Those few that did save their marriages used this method.
A relationship in order to succeed must have two healthy, happy individuals.
We must not sweep our portion of this under the rug.
We must become the best possible partners possible.
Those of us that are codependent, conflict avoiding, enablers must FIX themselves
as they are not healthy and will fail again in future relationships.
I see this as part of the mission of this site.
I believe that when you first get bombed you are not ready to hear the things that I am talking about.
Each of us heal and fix ourselves at our own pace.
A certain percentage of people will save themselves and maybe their marriages too.
Without the proper tools they will continue to repeat bad behaviors.
SO no matter what road we all choose this is a good path for us all to go down, to get
to the point of what road to choose.
My .02
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I agree too, but...I want to make a suggestion that may be unpopular. Since the focus of the site really has progressed more toward "hope in the LBS" instead of "hope in the marriage reconciliation" - The forum tag (and not referring to the main site) "Dealing with Midlife Crisis and Infidelity When You Don't Want a Divorce" should be changed to something like, "The HS Forum - Where Standers, Spouses, and Those Moving On Come Together to Heal." Just my .02 to keep the overall mission on point.
I actually think this is an EXCELLENT change. I honestly do not think it would TURN PEOPLE AWAY, in fact, it sounds enticing and sensible in a strange sort of way. How is it any different to say, have "hope for yourself", rather then "hope for your marriage"! To me, they are not mutually exclusive, in fact, they are in a sense one and the same thing. In order to have a great marriage, you have to have great feelings and love for yourself. Marriage is about sharing, not owning. Recognizing the similarities and differences, loving and enjoying each other because of those similarities and DIFFERENCES!
When we recognize and change traits about ourselves that even we did /do not like, our world begins to look a lot brighter. Hope is my middle name (not really), without HOPE I could not have gotten where I am today. Nobody could take away my hope, not then and not now. When I found this forum I was looking for a place that understood my pain and would not put a TIME LIMIT on how long it should last. Nor hate my h for what he was doing. I didn't want to hate him or anybody. I just wanted to feel better. I totally understand that for my family and friends, it was just too difficult for them to watch me suffer. This place was a God send.
I didn't need to hear what I ONLY WANTED TO HEAR, I just needed to be able to discuss it and lean on other people that were experiencing the same pain and loss that I was. As I said, "hope for my marriage, or hope for myself"... one and the same thing for me. If my marriage survived, lovely, but either way, I had HOPE for myself. I believed that this was intended to happen and the outcome would be mine to choose. There was much to be learned. Still learning actually.
Peace!
Hugs Stayed
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I am glad you said this as I do not feel that it is a bait and switch.
Those few that did save their marriages used this method.
I agree Old Pilot. Thank you for your post. H and I are back together and I've learned a lot and have changed a lot for the better. I think him seeing my changes helped him change as well. He tended to mirror me towards the end. Monster tried to throw me off, but I would come here and learn how to deal with it and Monster had to go away. He wasn't effective anymore. I don't know that I would have been able to stand through all of the fire and mud without learning what I learned here.
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I know I said this before, but I just wanted to weigh in again.
The tag line "Dealing with Midlife Crisis and Infidelity when you don't want a Divorce" is exactly right. It's exactly what we are doing here. RCR, if you're reading, please don't change that -- indeed, my .o2 is that it should be the overall site tag!
It doesn't mean not healing and not working on ourselves and any of that. It acknowledges the reality: that we have to deal with this. And that we don't want a divorce.
It doesn't mean we can necessarily avoid it.
I think it's one of the wonderfully clear statements about this site, and it's what I always thought this site specialised in. Helping those who don't want a divorce deal with the reality of MLC, infidelity, yes, divorce, all that.
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R2T I love you and you are very wise, but this make me sad to the pit of my stomach. If I had seen this when I was new, I wouldn't have gone any further with the site. I did not want a divorce. I wanted support for standing and I wanted my marriage back. I wanted to learn about midlife crisis and infidelity as well. It was the tag that got me to look further into this site. It was that tag that got me to read the articles which are fabulous. It was learning about script and how to handle contact and how to respond and not react that helped me stand. I'm very grieved that the forum is changing its focus. :'( Just my .02 as well.
((hugs))
I actually 100% agree and would probably not have stayed here either. :( I just have this "bait and switch" feel about what is up front versus what we're actually doing as a support group.
And I will take those hugs! :)
R2T, I agree with you about the "bait and switch" feel. I'm still a newbie by far, but from everything I read and everything I saw in my experience and from reading others, it's up to the MLC spouse what is going to happen. The LBS can either make it worse or get out of the way and make it better for themselves. Granted, yes there's so many individual factors, relationships and what type of MLCer we're talking about, but 99% of what's out there gives people the idea that A+B=C and you get your marriage back.
There was one guy I really like and I actually paid to watch his video. He was kind of the Mr. Roger's of all of this, super nice, thoughtful and gentle, but he still denied the reality and chaos that a MLC is. That's the thing nobody tells you and that you'll find down here on forums like this. It's all $$ and click through advertising and I do believe it sells false hope and keeps people in the "working on your marriage" mindset when you're really trying to manage chaos.
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R2T I love you and you are very wise, but this make me sad to the pit of my stomach. If I had seen this when I was new, I wouldn't have gone any further with the site. I did not want a divorce. I wanted support for standing and I wanted my marriage back. I wanted to learn about midlife crisis and infidelity as well. It was the tag that got me to look further into this site. It was that tag that got me to read the articles which are fabulous. It was learning about script and how to handle contact and how to respond and not react that helped me stand. I'm very grieved that the forum is changing its focus. :'( Just my .02 as well.
((hugs))
SAME WITH ME, SF!!! I AGREE. When I saw this site and title at BD, I felt understood, comforted and a bit relieved and read through everything in one day!.
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There was one guy I really like and I actually paid to watch his video. He was kind of the Mr. Roger's of all of this, super nice, thoughtful and gentle, but he still denied the reality and chaos that a MLC is. That's the thing nobody tells you and that you'll find down here on forums like this. It's all $$ and click through advertising
and I do believe it sells false hope and keeps people in the "working on your marriage" mindset when you're really trying to manage chaos.
I agree gman. Quite frankly you can't work on a marriage that no longer exists. You can work on a new relationship, again though, only if both parties want to have a relationship. MLC is CHAOS! Excellent way to describe it. The only way to deal with chaos is to analyze it and determine if there is any way to eliminate it or at the very least reduce it. Often there is. We do that by taking our financial, emotional and physical well being into our own personal responsibility. That is done by preventing the MLCer from having access to your well being.
That doesn't mean you throw HOPE away. If you can forsake hope that easily, then I am thinking you did not have much faith in what you once had, in yourself or your partner.
As for the TAG line of this forum, I think you have a good point Trustandlove, but so does Ready2tranform! As I said before, the two concepts are not mutually exclusive.
Hugs Stayed
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I'm very grieved that the forum is changing its focus.
I continue to be perplexed by statements like this. To my knowledge--and RCR will need to speak to this directly rather than have speculation swirling around and taking on a life of its own--I have never heard the board is changing its focus.
When the board began everyone was in the same place in the journey. Now it's been a number of years and 4000 members. People are going to be at different places now as new folks join regularly with much greater diversity of timeline, circumstances, etc.. There does not need to be a change in stance for there to naturally be differences in where people are in the process. We also now have reconciled people which we did not have in the early days so that is a benefit of having people at different points in the process. The seeming lamenting of what is past when it's not past is not helpful.
This is a board for people standing for their marriage and for themselves and, unless we are going to force people to leave when they are no longer standing--including because a divorce was forced on them---then a level of tolerance for where each of us is on the journey, would be more useful. Going in circles about a loss of hope and and speculations about a change in stance seems counterproductive. Everything is tangibly the same today as it was the day before the blog. Reminding people of what she has always said---there are no guarantees---does not mean RCR has changed stance or that there is any less hope today than there was a week ago.
Personally, I don't know that altering the tag line is what we want to do. I think it reflects why people come here. It's just that the reasons people stay, evolve over time and that couldn't have been known in the beginning.
Phoenix
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I have an opinion!
Doing a little mirror work on where and how and when I share it, though. 8)
So just hanging out around the virtual table, watching and listening....
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There was one guy I really like and I actually paid to watch his video. He was kind of the Mr. Roger's of all of this, super nice, thoughtful and gentle, but he still denied the reality and chaos that a MLC is. That's the thing nobody tells you and that you'll find down here on forums like this. It's all $$ and click through advertising
and I do believe it sells false hope and keeps people in the "working on your marriage" mindset when you're really trying to manage chaos.
I agree gman. Quite frankly you can't work on a marriage that no longer exists. You can work on a new relationship, again though, only if both parties want to have a relationship. MLC is CHAOS! Excellent way to describe it. The only way to deal with chaos is to analyze it and determine if there is any way to eliminate it or at the very least reduce it. Often there is. We do that by taking our financial, emotional and physical well being into our own personal responsibility. That is done by preventing the MLCer from having access to your well being.
That doesn't mean you throw HOPE away. If you can forsake hope that easily, then I am thinking you did not have much faith in what you once had, in yourself or your partner.
As for the TAG line of this forum, I think you have a good point Trustandlove, but so does Ready2tranform! As I said before, the two concepts are not mutually exclusive.
Hugs Stayed
There's certainty room for both sides. I just thing a majority of the industry (and that's what is is!) blissfully ignores the reality of it.
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I agree Phoenix, I've been here for a very long time and I don't see where the board has changed much at all. I'm still confused why people think that.
I see Mentors giving the same advice they did when I came aboard. The ONLY difference is there is more emphasis on protecting your finances, which is a good thing.
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I'd like to add on my reply. Self focus, respond and not react, mirror work, living in joy are much needed to be around a MLCer to eventually reconcile. Please don't misunderstand my last post. Yet I feel the natural and most work is actually done by the MLCer going through the 6 stages.
Keeping our focus on ourselves and children instead of the MLCer is the absolute best way to go. The MLCer will naturally change as they emotionally mature.
I find lots of jewels and I am very appreciative for RCR articles and this site to get us (the LBS) back on to us, instead of frantically getting impatient and wondering what's going on with our MLCer
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I'm very grieved that the forum is changing its focus.
I continue to be perplexed by statements like this. To my knowledge--and RCR will need to speak to this directly rather than have speculation swirling around and taking on a life of its own--I have never heard the board is changing its focus.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
I so agree Phoenix... what has changed? Some words! We are still a support group that now has healed members. Healed and reconciled! Healed and in new relationships! Healed and enjoying the life they have rebuilt for themselves!
If we do no heal, we are INCAPABLE of having any sort of relationship with ANYBODY... including ourselves. We have done a marvelous job and have supported thousands of people through some of the worst days of their lives. We have watched them grow, move on... some with their MLCer... some without! We have made new friends, that we would rely ours lives on, as there is a bond created by this THING, that can never be erased!
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Personally, I don't know that altering the tag line is what we want to do. I think it reflects why people come here. It's just that the reasons people stay, evolve over time and that couldn't have been known in the beginning.
Phoenix
This is a very good point Phoenix. The tag line SUITS what we are all about. All of us came here, hoping/praying/desiring our MLCer would find their ways through the tunnel and come out the other side to us. We haven't seen as much of that as we would have like, but that does not mean we have GIVEN UP HOPE... or faith in our MLCer. It simply means that we now know for a certainty that we cannot fix them. That our MLCer has to do this on their own. Just like we had to do our journey on our own, with a little help from our friends in here. I suspect that very few MLCer's seek out an online support group to help them navigate their journey. Such a pity.
Well said Phoenix.
Hugs Stayed
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I have an opinion!
Doing a little mirror work on where and how and when I share it, though. 8)
So just hanging out around the virtual table, watching and listening....
Funny! 8)
CallingHeart
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I have an opinion!
Doing a little mirror work on where and how and when I share it, though. 8)
So just hanging out around the virtual table, watching and listening....
;D ;D ;D ;D
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1t, I understand what you are saying, but I see Anjae's blood pressure going up. lol
My blood pressure will not go up, but my mind may explode. ;D On the separated board issue, lets leave things the way they are, simple.
We are all, myself, included, debating the more controversial points of the blog post, but I think it is important to focus on the self healing and working on ourselves part. Not because the MLCer may or may not return, not because of, like Stayed said, of a marriage that no longer exists, but because of us.
That work is the same regardless of the marital outcome. Like OP said, if we focus 125% on ourselves, success is guaranteed. The success of a LBS does not equal marital reconciliation, it equals a person that has healed (at its own rate and in their own time, rushing will not help), grew and worked on theirself. That is success.
Regarding change and words. Words make a difference. Especially in a context where they are all there is. On a written online board there is no tone, no facial expression or body language . Words are the only thing one sees/reads/goes by.
Of course there is change. The board is now a few years old. Nothing remains static. Not HS, not the LBS, not the MLCer, let alone life.
Can we all do better? We can. Better is always possible.
But there is necessary to have in mind that like everything else, HS is going through growing pains, that like within any normal family there are discussions, arguments even, periods of what may seen instability and periods of serenity.
It is much more difficult to work, on any level (be it mentoring, moderating, giving advice, offer support) on a place with many people than on a place with a handful of people. Early on HS members were a much smaller group who knew each other fairly well.
Now the board grew, some of those members remain around but their situation has changed. Many new people come in (several of which come and went and we no longer know a thing about them). Like life, HS is in flow.
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That work is the same regardless of the marital outcome. Like OP said, if we focus 125% on ourselves, success is guaranteed. The success of a LBS does not equal marital reconciliation, it equals a person that has healed (at its own rate and in their own time, rushing will not help), grew and worked on their self. That is success.
Anjae,
This sums it up perfectly....
Success can not be measured by numbers of reconciliations (or not), numbers of reconnections (or not) numbers of new relationships (or not)....
Success can, and SHOULD, be measured but the numbers of LBS's (we should also think about finding a better term for this as being left behind infers that we stay where we are/were) who are living happy, productive fulfilling lives IN WHATEVER FORM THEY FIND MEANINGFUL AND SATISFYING FOR THEM.
RCR has posted on the old thread in a very comprehensive response. If you haven't had the chance to look at it (I got the "new post" notification this morning my time), it is well worth the read as it does describe some of her reasoning and thought processes that she was going through while writing the blog.
Peace,
UM
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RCR has posted on the old thread in a very comprehensive response. If you haven't had the chance to look at it (I got the "new post" notification this morning my time), it is well worth the read as it does describe some of her reasoning and thought processes that she was going through while writing the blog.
Peace,
UM
I am at work and just read the abovementioned post by RCR. Very well worth the read.
I would like to say that although the blog post initially ruffled me a little, I was obliged to look at my stand again and say that the odds are not so important to me at this time. I am standing with my eyes open and realize that there are no guarantees, in fact, the probability of a restored marriage is very slim when we take into account the universe of failed marriages. I know that having time and space to rebuild my life according to the principles I find important, has been essential. I strive to be coherent and consistent in my beliefs and not be swayed by stats.
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UM,
Thank you so much for letting us know RCR had written a response on the first, locked thread. I would never have gone back to look at the locked thread.
I encourage everyone who hasn't read it to go read it. Good stuff! :)
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Took me ages to find it:
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=8353.msg542310#top (http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=8353.msg542310#top)
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Yes, very good stuff.
I appreciated RCRs responses and even though I still don't agree with the quote "odds go down with time", I understand why she wrote it. Thank you RCR for responding.
We now have 4000 people on this forum. Let's face it, MLC is a crazy beast that can come in all shapes and sizes, let's also factor in the different personalities of all the LBSers. There is absolutely no way to please everyone.
For me now, it's not about the odds, for me now. I was just going back in time and I know without a shadow of a doubt if I thought the clock was ticking instead of my friend I would have made different choices. So for me, I would have been even more self destructive. Anyone who has drifted onto my thread knows that I was a hot mess for a long time. Can you believe I was holding back? I was. :o I was holding back b/c of advise from this forum. That would have been my response, but others have said they wouldn't have appreciated the "bait and switch"... hey I get that, and it's a good point. Again, how do we please everyone?
I always knew I wasn't a "typical stander". One could easily accuse me as being a big factor to some of the changes that many don't like, especially talking about dating. Also, because I don't hold back most know about a particular thread of mine that grew hostile. Yet, I'm still here. Why?
In the real world my best friend, the person I trusted more than anyone else in the world threw me into an icy cold ocean and left me there. I reached out to my sister in law, she threw me a boulder, the rest of my in-laws joined in, my daughter, same thing. Some people with good intentions tried to help but didn't get it. We all know these people, "well, divorce happens", "he must have always cheated", "why are you still crying over a cheat?" "are you going to have a divorce party?" etc....
This was the only place where I could come and people understood what I was talking about. This forum is the only place I can say, "my husband use to be a good man, now he is a liar and a cheat and he points his finger at me". Then a dozen people will respond, "yep. mine did that too."
Hey I'm not crazy. He is.
So yes, it's easy for someone like me, just a crazy hot mess with a broken heart, to pick apart each article and responses from others when I don't agree BUT...
I will always be grateful that I found this forum and (most..) of the people who put up with my nonsense on a daily basis. As we often say on here, if you don't like my stuff, then don't read it and move on. :)
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I couldn't agree more. If I don't like a thread I just stay away from it. :)
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LBS's (we should also think about finding a better term for this as being left behind infers that we stay where we are/were) ...
Oh, I have been sounding a bit like a broken record at times when I start with "the LBS is soon the ahead spouse". ::) I believe it. Longer it may take us, we become the ahead spouse.
Not sure if we ever debated the mattter, but if we had, it was probably decided to stick to LBS because it is a term people are already familiar with.
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Someone used the term "newly released spouse".
I like that one. :D
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Not bad, but I think it is not something people at BD would want to hear or feel OK with. And standers may also not feel cool wiyth it.
the ahead spouse does not seem that bad to me. However, having one term for BD and the times after BD and another for those down the road may be compicating things too much.
We all know the LBS ends up no being the left behind spouse at all. :)
There is absolutely no way to please everyone.
There really isn't. At least not everyone a, every single time.
Again, how do we please everyone?
When it comes to info (articles, blog posts, etc) having balance and present the several realities, as well as what MLC is I think it is more a case of having the info available than please people.
On story threads, it is possible to taylor advice to each particular case, because we are all different and dealing with different situations.
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My old forum kept the LBS thing pretty simple. We called ourselves betrayed spouse (BS) and we called our cheating spouse, the wayward spouse (WS). Kept things pretty simple actually, lol, not very flattering I am thinking, but certainly precise.
Hugs Stayed
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If we do our mirror work and such, we are eventually the LBS (Left Better Spouse 8) ).
Phoenix
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If we do our mirror work and such, we are eventually the LBS (Left Better Spouse 8) ).
Perfect! :)
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If we do our mirror work and such, we are eventually the LBS (Left Better Spouse 8) ).
Phoenix
Love this! :)
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If we do our mirror work and such, we are eventually the LBS (Left Better Spouse 8) ).
For me LBS = Living Better Spouse. I mentally changed that when my mirror work was taking hold because I wasn't the one left behind, STBX was. Same only different. :)
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Excellent, Medusa! ;D
Phoenix
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I had a question that'a related but maybe not entirely on topic, but I have noticed in some cases of reconciliation I have read there is an acknowledgement that the MLCer is not really operating at 100 percent.
Is this typical? I know there are people who come out an improved version but is this the exception?
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When they first return Velika, very few of them are completely out of the crisis. At least not the ones that return to their marriage partner or significant other. When they first start to see the light, they are filled with a lot of guilt and shame. You would think that would be a good thing but sadly guilt and shame often doesn't work the way we expect it would. People hate feeling guilty and they hate being ashamed of themselves even more, so for many of them, those feelings end up turning into anger and depression.
I don't know what happens to the men and women who do not return to their spouse. I don't know if they come out of their crisis or not. It seems that many do and complete the rest of their lives in a state of depression of some sort. I have often wondered about the MLCer that did not have a truly loving partner that was willing to ride the aftermath of their crisis with them.
I did not consider us to be reconciled for the first 3 years of our reconnection. Honestly, I kept waiting for the other shoe to drop, then 3 years later I realized that we had been together for 3 years already. Maybe it was time I let my guard down. I hadn't realized I was being protective of myself, until that moment, but seriously, opening yourself up to a person that betrayed you so horribly, is not easy to do.
Reconciliation is really, really difficult. I don't think any MLCer becomes a changed man or woman immediately upon leaving the tunnel. They tend to nip, in and out of the tunnel for quite a while after they SEEM to be exiting their crisis. Honestly, you can't really tell if they are out of crisis or not for quite a long while.
Mine and most other recovered MLCer's that I have known, spend a long time trying to dodge accountability and ownership of their behavior throughout their crisis. It's crazy, during their crisis, they adamantly deny that they are in CRISIS. Once they start to come out, their big EXCUSE is, I was having a MLC. My h tried that one... didn't work out too well for him.
They become a new, improved person when they finally own what they did. When they finally accept accountability and actually seek and ask for forgiveness. Usually we have forgiven the actions, words and behavior during their crisis, but it is pretty surprising how many layers of forgiveness there is. Just when you think you have totally forgiven them, something else is divulged. It's not easy and I think any recovered MLCer that returns and completely weathers the aftermath, stands a pretty good chance of becoming a pretty good person. If they can't, then they will remain shallow, petty and unhappy.
A recovered MLCer can be a pretty amazing person eventually but they have to do a lot of work. A little easier if they are with a partner who has done the mirror work on him/herself. Having a role model to follow, definitely makes it a little easier for the returner.
To top it all off, we can definitely forgive but NOBODY ever forgets!
Anyway, that's my personal opinion. Others will be along eventually to add their opinions I expect.
Hugs
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If we do our mirror work and such, we are eventually the LBS (Left Better Spouse 8) ).
For me LBS = Living Better Spouse. I mentally changed that when my mirror work was taking hold because I wasn't the one left behind, STBX was. Same only different. :)
I like that too Medusa!
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stayed,
What you said made so much sense to me and I can completely related to everything you said. :)
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Thank you for a very honest and insightful answer, stayed. It was so appealing to me to spend the first several years thinking of this as a magical process that would be just like a blip in the overall timeline of our lives, but that's not really how life works, is it? Once I got real about what I was actually standing for, I could actually make more educated decisions about it. It's not always warm and fuzzy, but neither is life as a non-stander.
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This is going back to the blog post--I couldn't decide where I stood :P . On the one hand I don't like to see newcomers discouraged. I also cannot see how one would heal without accepting the present reality [spouse gone, lbs alone].
I think the Stockdale Paradox applies to the situation. Someone on HS quoted it once and I thought it was worth repeating for newcomers. Google for the background story.
“Retain faith that you will prevail in the end, regardless of the difficulties, and at the same time confront the most brutal facts of your current reality, whatever they might be.” —James Stockdale
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author=calamity
“Retain faith that you will prevail in the end, regardless of the difficulties, and at the same time confront the most brutal facts of your current reality, whatever they might be.” —James Stockdale
Pretty much sums it up for me; I'm prevailing, but it's been brutal. :)
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This is going back to the blog post--I couldn't decide where I stood :P . On the one hand I don't like to see newcomers discouraged. I also cannot see how one would heal without accepting the present reality [spouse gone, lbs alone].
I think the Stockdale Paradox applies to the situation. Someone on HS quoted it once and I thought it was worth repeating for newcomers. Google for the background story.
“Retain faith that you will prevail in the end, regardless of the difficulties, and at the same time confront the most brutal facts of your current reality, whatever they might be.” —James Stockdale
Love this! Thank you.
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Reconciliation is really, really difficult. I don't think any MLCer becomes a changed man or woman immediately upon leaving the tunnel. They tend to nip, in and out of the tunnel for quite a while after they SEEM to be exiting their crisis. Honestly, you can't really tell if they are out of crisis or not for quite a long while.
Mine and most other recovered MLCer's that I have known, spend a long time trying to dodge accountability and ownership of their behavior throughout their crisis. It's crazy, during their crisis, they adamantly deny that they are in CRISIS. Once they start to come out, their big EXCUSE is, I was having a MLC. My h tried that one... didn't work out too well for him.
They become a new, improved person when they finally own what they did. When they finally accept accountability and actually seek and ask for forgiveness. Usually we have forgiven the actions, words and behavior during their crisis, but it is pretty surprising how many layers of forgiveness there is. Just when you think you have totally forgiven them, something else is divulged. It's not easy and I think any recovered MLCer that returns and completely weathers the aftermath, stands a pretty good chance of becoming a pretty good person. If they can't, then they will remain shallow, petty and unhappy.
A recovered MLCer can be a pretty amazing person eventually but they have to do a lot of work. A little easier if they are with a partner who has done the mirror work on him/herself. Having a role model to follow, definitely makes it a little easier for the returner.
To top it all off, we can definitely forgive but NOBODY ever forgets!
Anyway, that's my personal opinion. Others will be along eventually to add their opinions I expect.
As always Stayed - to the point and undeniably brilliant info.
This is perfect for me in my thinking at this moment and with what is going on with H and "me" or rather my situation. It is good to have a reminder of just how tough this MLC malarky is and can be when you have been it for a few years.....
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Good post, stayed -- so many times we hear "they return broken"; you've explained in more detail and more clearly.
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Rcr, I dont know if you ever wrote about what your h said he felt like when he went through this. I was wondering if you could tell me where you might have wrote about it ,or can you tell us a bit on this thread.
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From what I've read about some accounts of the "Returned", it seems a lot of rugsweeping is being done on the side of the LBS. Is the "Broken" MLc'er really coming back or do they simply have no where else to go?
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Good point, Braveheart.
Not all come back for the right reasons.
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This is a very good point Braveheart! Quite frankly, I have seen a lot of rugsweeping as well. It really is easier to let it all go then to face it and deal with it. In my opinion that is only going to lead the couple straight back to where this ALL BEGAN! Sad but true.
In my opinion, the returned partner has to feel real REMORSE! In my experience, I have not seen a single MLCer who returned with true, blue remorse. Most returned with a great deal of sincere guilt and shame, but that is not the same thing as remorse, as we all know. Unless they reach remorse, as I said earlier guilt and shame, end up becoming anger and depression, which helps NOBODY!
Getting my husband to own his actions during his crisis was probably the hardest thing I ever did. I went through every emotion there is... furious anger, to true, blue pity for my partner. People are SO resistant to remorse and repenting. They honestly think that just feeling very, very badly about a thing, is enough. The number of times my h shouted, "| said I was sorry, what more do you want?" I could have bought every swamp in Florida and if I had bought into his FEEBLE apology, swamp land is exactly what I would have ended up with.
Instead, I slowly found the right boundaries, the boundaries that were going to lead both of us back to redemption and reconciliation. It was especially difficult for me, as I did not have Hero Spouse to give me suggestions. That being said, I did have another wonderful "life line" called Surviving Infidelity, the lovely people there helped me so much during that time period, as I went through a lot of the emotions I began during and after BD but because my h returned so quickly, I had not totally completed.
These wonderful people helped me to understand that I was having severe anxiety attacks and not heart attacks that came and went, hehehe. They helped me to understand that I had to hold my husband's feet to the fire until he understood EXACTLY what he had done. They helped me realize that my h had to own what he had done, JUST LIKE I owned my part/s in the marriage. They also impressed upon me the importance of helping him to understand that, no matter how bad he felt our marriage was, that there was NOTHING bad enough, that gave him the right to lie, cheat and betray me, as he did.
It is not easy Braveheart to deal with these type of things. As it often feels like you are BEATING the returner up. Standing firm on your expectations is not picking on them. We don't let our children away with bad behavior, well this is the same thing. I was always suspicious that people hate to admit wrong doing but reconciliation showed me that people HATE admitting to anything. The crazy part, they seem to think that they don't NEED to own their misdeeds, yet the Bible and life in general has taught us that UNLESS we understand what we did wrong and completely OWN it, we are doomed to repeat it. Surely NOBODY ever wants to repeat this.
As the left behind spouse no more, it is your job to make sure that you truly do forgive them, and that your returned MLCer totally grasps the HORROR of their behavior and how much they must now repent for their actions. Not only to their LBS but children, family and friends that they disappointed, abandoned and replaced during their crisis. Certainly, they need to learn about MLC. They need to understand what happened to them. Once they do that though, they truly must not HIDE BEHIND it as a very convenient excuse that allows them to downgrade their behavior to a "oops, me bad", sort of moment. This was far, far worse then that and we all know it.
You are right Braveheart, there is a lot of sweeping under the carpet for some of the people that are trying to reconnect. I think at first you have to set it all aside, until you become reacquainted again. Give yourselves an opportunity to fall back in love, which quite honestly is much easier then even I expected. These are people we trusted, spent many years with, most of us had children with them. When they stop acting cold and nasty, it is easy to see the person you loved for many, many years. The thing is though, unless you show them (as you cannot do this for them) that they must DEAL with this monster, not sweep it aside, we seriously cannot have the relationship we want and desire with our returned spouse.
If we do, then it is possible to have a much improved partner... actually both of you become much improved. It's worth the effort but you have to remain very alert and not allow either of you to slip back. I'm not sure that the returner every totally grasps that these changes within us, have to be for life and we have to be
I'm pleased that you brought this up Braveheart, that is a mistake so many people make because they seem to feel that by holding their MLCer accountable they are RUBBING it in, not letting it go, using it to lord over the MLCer. I strongly believe that if you want to have the sort of marriage that I now have, you have to enforce boundaries and insist that both of you remain accountable for our behaviour to each other. Just my opinion Braveheart. Take what you want and leave the rest or even all of it.
Hugs Stayed
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From what I've read about some accounts of the "Returned", it seems a lot of rugsweeping is being done on the side of the LBS. Is the "Broken" MLc'er really coming back or do they simply have no where else to go?
Boom. That's the message a lot of the gurus of marriage reconciliation also promote (Joe Beam comes to mind the most - basically said the LBS has two weeks to ask non-invasive questions and should then stop "shoving it in their face"). I can't see where that wouldn't lead to LBS repression. And if it's repression that leads to crisis, wouldn't that be a factor in at worst another crisis in the family down the road, or at best an unsatisfying, non-transparent relationship? Both parties should be free to express their emotions in a healthy marriage, IMO, and that would be a really huge thing to have to squash for the "greater good".
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Stayed, you reminded me of some things my X told me when he was in treatment for drugs n alcohol.
The counselors and the others trying to heal do not let you get away with sweeping things under the rug or making excuses for what you have done. Nope, the hold their feet to the fire until they see, understand and admit the gravity of what they have done, the hurt they have caused.
Until they see real remorse.
That's when the healing starts.
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Not all come back for the right reasons.
Actually, I think they return believing they can control the return. They want to return to exactly what they had without any repercussion or consequences. Just my opinion but it seems to me that the returns that fail, are the ones where the LBS's allowed that to happen. This is probably one of the few times when a partner has "leverage" over the other. Not a nice way to put this, but if you want a new, improved partner then somebody has to make that happen, because MLCer's really do not want to revisit the past or "mirror work" or do stuff like that. They would much prefer, ALL IS FORGIVEN and forgotten... now let's just carry on as though nothing happened.
Definitely this can and is forgiven. Forgiveness is just as much for ourselves as it for the sinner. That being said.. we NEVER forget. Nor should it ever be forgotten.
Just my opinion... completely!
Hugs Stayed
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From what I've read about some accounts of the "Returned", it seems a lot of rugsweeping is being done on the side of the LBS. Is the "Broken" MLc'er really coming back or do they simply have no where else to go?
Boom. That's the message a lot of the gurus of marriage reconciliation also promote (Joe Beam comes to mind the most - basically said the LBS has two weeks to ask non-invasive questions and should then stop "shoving it in their face"). I can't see where that wouldn't lead to LBS repression. And if it's repression that leads to crisis, wouldn't that be a factor in at worst another crisis in the family down the road, or at best an unsatisfying, non-transparent relationship? Both parties should be free to express their emotions in a healthy marriage, IMO, and that would be a really huge thing to have to squash for the "greater good".
Sorry but these amazing responses are coming in as I am responding to the other.
OMG... 2 weeks...that is ridiculous! That means the LBS has to stuff all this down and then try to forget all about it. NO WAY! When I say I was THREE YEARS Ready2transform, I am not kidding. Sometimes, rarely but sometime, hubby and I get into it and I will still throw it in his face. He hates it! I hate it when I do it BUT this does not just go away. This is part of who you both are now. Betrayal is something one NEVER forgets. At the slightest sign of betrayal/disloyalty/deceit etc., expect to flare up and start accusing, or at the very least letting them know that YOU ARE CONCERNED! Is that considered "throwing it in his/her face?"
How can you not? This isn't just a "me bad" thing! This is betrayal! The worst kind of betrayal, if there is a worst kind. In most cases we were abandoned as well as betrayed, so there is no way that we should feel that we have to BURY our hurt and pain, because it might be perceived as "shoving it in their faces"! They did it... they should expect to hear about it. My h definitely does. If you do not get it out, you are going to have a big, pink elephant in your life forever. No thank you. I am honest now. I react honestly. If my h doesn't like it, then he shouldn't have done it or he shouldn't have returned.
My husband and I have discussed this stuff in great detail. In his mind, ad nauseam lol. There are no freebies my friends. No free get of jail cards. This is real life. Being accountable, actually makes all of this very bearable. Believe me, my husband doesn't hold back with me either. The man shoots straight from the hip and sometimes it really hurts. That being said, generally his angry retorts back at me, are totally justified and validated. No, I don't like it. No he doesn't like it when I do it to him.
Since both of us started being honest (and I am sure we are not being 100% honest with each other, I actually think that would probably be going a bit too far lol), we have a contentment and peace between us, that was never present before. WE not only love each other, but we totally LOVE being together and now that we are retired, we are together a lot. I'm not sure we would be as happy and content as we are, if this had not happened. Retirement togetherness might have been a bridge too far, but having been separated we know we love being together, so every day is a bonus. Even if I do rub it in his face now and then... and he into mine.
Again I state.. just my personal opinion!
Hugs Stayed
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What about holding them accountable during the mayhem? After three years he did finally divorce me and in this 4th year is still with OW, and is still in contact. I have a difficult time not saying some hard truths to him at times...always have spoken my mind with him because I certainly do not think he should get to 'rug sweep' his actions just because we are divorced now.
Stayed, you reminded me of some things my X told me when he was in treatment for drugs n alcohol.
The counselors and the others trying to heal do not let you get away with sweeping things under the rug or making excuses for what you have done. Nope, the hold their feet to the fire until they see, understand and admit the gravity of what they have done, the hurt they have caused.
Until they see real remorse.
That's when the healing starts.
And this too. I have an (recovering) addict son and I have always held him accountable for his actions and choices. I do not see why my exh should have an escape from reality.
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They have no motivation to be accountable to us when they are checked out and done with the marriage, no matter how nuts any of that is. I think that's why boundaries are so valuable for us. It is the only thing that will give us control back. When they DO want the marriage or at least the stability of the home again, that's when you have leverage to hold them accountable.
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Thank you Ready2. I think this is true and have often felt that I need to do a lot more mirror work on this matter. It's incredible difficult at times when I feel that everything is on me, I have been the one taking care of my son(s) and trying to help him stay clean. I do not want to become the bitter one because of my circumstances, as I know I would be there for my sons no matter where my relationship status stood. Would be nice to have some assistance though :-\
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HUGS. I can't even imagine what must be on your shoulders. If friends and family aren't able to be part of your support network, I know many around here have gotten a huge value out of Al-Anon. You should NOT have to go through this alone just because your H is off the rails.
It's been one of the hardest things for me to accept that mine was able to make such a clean emotional break, due to mental illness or decision or otherwise, but it definitely has helped bring down my level of expectation in him.
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HUGS to you as well. I've tried the Al-Anon but the beast that I deal with is not alcohol, and that's where it felt centered on. I do know that whatever the DOC (drug of choice) is that of course, some of the same practices apply. In the end though, it is the addicts choice to face their demons and change. Somewhat like an mlc'er, I suppose.
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Boundaries are important, for ourselves as well. I mean that in the sense that we have to set our own boundaries about what we are not going to allow ourselves to do as well. We have to set rules for ourselves as much as for our MLCer.
The truth is Adia, it probably doesn't do much good speaking your mind, at least not to the way your h thinks. If it HONESTLY makes you feel better, then that alone, makes it worth doing. The thing is, you need to be pretty sure that it is making you feel better because sadly, it is very easy to find yourself very bitter and very angry, especially when you have been left to deal, completely on your own, with a very loved child that is dealing with addiction, depression or even a physical illness.
It's you that MATTERS Adia. You and your sons. Focus on you. Remember, we all have to face our Maker some day. Your h's day before a higher court will come. For now, the most important thing is you and your sons, especially the one who is battling an addiction. Believe it or not Adia, seeing the way you are handling your MLCer's betrayal, has to be motivational to your son.
Hugs Stayed
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Not all come back for the right reasons.
Actually, I think they return believing they can control the return. They want to return to exactly what they had without any repercussion or consequences. Just my opinion but it seems to me that the returns that fail, are the ones where the LBS's allowed that to happen. This is probably one of the few times when a partner has "leverage" over the other. Not a nice way to put this, but if you want a new, improved partner then somebody has to make that happen, because MLCer's really do not want to revisit the past or "mirror work" or do stuff like that. They would much prefer, ALL IS FORGIVEN and forgotten... now let's just carry on as though nothing happened.
Definitely this can and is forgiven. Forgiveness is just as much for ourselves as it for the sinner. That being said.. we NEVER forget. Nor should it ever be forgotten.
Just my opinion... completely!
Hugs Stayed
If they return in the same state of irresponsibility and wanting to be non-accountable for their actions, then what is it they have actually accomplished and what purpose did their escapes actually serve? Have I wrongly been under the belief that this time "away" for them was supposed to help them sort things out.
If you just take them back in the same condition they left...many times after years of them having been away, how in the world would you expect it to work? It would be in essence as if the time away was nothing more than an escape for them...not a time of healing, improvement, and healing. Just a time for them to be free of you.
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Boundaries are important, for ourselves as well. I mean that in the sense that we have to set our own boundaries about what we are not going to allow ourselves to do as well. We have to set rules for ourselves as much as for our MLCer.
The truth is Adia, it probably doesn't do much good speaking your mind, at least not to the way your h thinks. If it HONESTLY makes you feel better, then that alone, makes it worth doing. The thing is, you need to be pretty sure that it is making you feel better because sadly, it is very easy to find yourself very bitter and very angry, especially when you have been left to deal, completely on your own, with a very loved child that is dealing with addiction, depression or even a physical illness.
It's you that MATTERS Adia. You and your sons. Focus on you. Remember, we all have to face our Maker some day. Your h's day before a higher court will come. For now, the most important thing is you and your sons, especially the one who is battling an addiction. Believe it or not Adia, seeing the way you are handling your MLCer's betrayal, has to be motivational to your son.
Hugs Stayed
As usual Stayed, your thoughts & comments are valuable advise.
And the fact is that speaking my mind to him, just makes me sad mostly. You should never have to remind a parent that they have children.
To keep the focus on this discussion thread-RCR's post almost felt like a sign to me and my situation BECAUSE that's what I was feeling/reading into it, not BECAUSE she was personally advising me to do anything. As time passes for me, I'm no longer certain of to my stand. I know that the man that I loved, gets further and further away and I have so much other to focus on; my sons, work, financials and so on.
Adia
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If you just take them back in the same condition they left...many times after years of them having been away, how in the world would you expect it to work? It would be in essence as if the time away was nothing more than an escape for them...not a time of healing, improvement, and healing. Just a time for them to be free of you.
That's why it is called "Escape and Avoid" as a stage. That is literally what they are doing. I've not seen, in his many years gone, my xH do anything but crash and burn through businesses and jobs, relationships, and integrity.
Nothing happens until Liminality per RCR's stages, if they ever hit it. From http://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/mlc_overview_liminality.html
Liminal Depression is a consequence of Replay behaviour. Replay spending results in bills and losses of things that are no longer affordable--not merely Replay luxuries such as the sports car, but also the loss of former possessions and savings (house, car, pension etc.). Financial losses can be significant, but more devastating is the loss of Self and potential, the loss of marriage, health, self-worth due to losses and guilt, and the loss of escape as Replay no longer produces a high. Everything leading up to Liminal Depression was preparation; the real work begins here.
It really is the reason why it's so important we get to acceptance asap and start the self-focus. Even if they do hit this, it's a long haul to get there.
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What about holding them accountable during the mayhem? After three years he did finally divorce me and in this 4th year is still with OW, and is still in contact. I have a difficult time not saying some hard truths to him at times...always have spoken my mind with him because I certainly do not think he should get to 'rug sweep' his actions just because we are divorced now.
Stayed, you reminded me of some things my X told me when he was in treatment for drugs n alcohol.
The counselors and the others trying to heal do not let you get away with sweeping things under the rug or making excuses for what you have done. Nope, the hold their feet to the fire until they see, understand and admit the gravity of what they have done, the hurt they have caused.
Until they see real remorse.
That's when the healing starts.
And this too. I have an (recovering) addict son and I have always held him accountable for his actions and choices. I do not see why my exh should have an escape from reality.
l've gotta admit.
Mine has been so sensitive and volatile in 4yrs l've hardly said one thing about all this .Only things related to my d and ex nearly always brushed those over with things like - oh we can do this or she'll be ok or just brushed it off completely.
But we had a fight a few mths back about a credit card , it blew up a bit and for the first time really , l said something that l'd felt like saying for yrs.
l said you destroyed her family [ my d's ] and now your acting like this in front of her.
Well , for the first time she hasn't talked to me since .
20 yrs together and now she hasn't talked to me in 2mths and this makes it very hard for d and to keep each other in the loop with all things d. Which we'd at least done really well up until that fight and me saying that.
But she had it coming , l still think that , but it's just that it has totally messed up our parenting now and has been a very emotional time for me since knowing our 20yrs has come to this.
So l'm not sure about making them accountable or maybe l just did it wrong , gotta be careful about it l think and the way it's said but l was pretty damn pissed and had been carrying that inside for 3yrs and letting her of Scot free.
Gotta admit though ,bc of the sitch with my d now , l really wish l'd just shut the fk up at the time and not poked the bear .
Still hoping in time we can get back on track and it blows over.
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So l'm not sure about making them accountable or maybe l just did it wrong , gotta be careful about it l think and the way it's said but l was pretty damn pissed and had been carrying that inside for 3yrs and letting her of Scot free.
Gotta admit though ,bc of the sitch with my d now , l really wish l'd just shut the fk up at the time and not poked the bear .
Still hoping in time we can get back on track and it blows over.
Hawk, with all due respect, the reason you are now not talking and it is difficult for matters regarding d isn't because you said something to her (or even HOW you said it), it's because of HER reaction, which SHE is responsible for!! SHE is the reason there is a problem. Your reaction of making it YOUR fault is because you have been emotionally abused by her! It is a common reaction by all of us, male and female, and I saw my own father do it for decades with my bpd mother. He was not responsible for ANY of her actions or reactions, just as you are not. I'm sorry it makes it difficult for and with your daughter, but if it wasn't THIS, it would be something else. You really have to know this and you really have to allow her to own her own problems without taking responsibility for them - for ANY of them.
We all come here abused by them and seeking to fix it, but I really want to encourage you to go deep in your mirror work and get your power and peace back. And power is not about "then you can attack her" - it's about "and then you can no longer accept less than what is reasonable" from anyone, including her. If she can't deliver, then you'll learn there's probably a lot less you have to communicate with her about regarding your d anyway (your d directly, teachers, and other third parties as needed can fill you in instead).
We fail here when we encourage people to mitigate abuse instead of end it.
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Hawk....you did nothing wrong in calling her out. In my eyes, it serves absolutely no purpose to continue to placate to these people who have treated everyone around them as bothersome nconveniences and destroyed everything else in their way. Nothing wrong with a truth dart that manages to pierce their fantastical little bubble. The truth hurts....with the guilt and shame...no surprise she's kept her distance. Now she knows you see thru her bs. Just sorry she's manipulating the situation and taking it out on your D. Truly selfish.
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I called my X out when I found out she was moving in with the OM, we had to meet up at the DMV to transfer the ownership of one of our cars. When we were done I looked her and said, " I don't know how you could do this to us and our family, even if you been a paraplegic for the last 20 years I'd never have done what you did, I'd have stuck by you to the end". She ran off and I've not had more than a dozen words with her since....I worried about being that blunt early on, but felt much better for saying what needed to be said. Now I realize I was right, and she'll never be in any doubt about my integrity and devotion to our family and marriage.
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Braveheart, I did the same to my xh very early on...about a month after he filed the D and just 4 months post BD. Told him everything I had enough of the 16 years of our M because even by that point, I knew I didn't want anything else to do with him. All he could do was try....but I didn't let him, to weakly monster. It was the moment I lost all respect for him and saw him as the coward he continues to be to this day. My life is so much better without him.
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Hawk it made me sad to read that you REGRETTED calling out your wife about the credit card incident. Every word Ready2Transform said is true. Trust us when we tell you, one way or another your wife was not going to be talking to you at this time. That's the way MLCer work. No matter what you say or do, YOU ARE THE ONE AT FAULT in their mind.
Please my dear, stop regretting what you said. It doesn't matter whether she had it coming or not.. you said it, SO WHAT? Don't let her or ANYBODY manipulate you. You did and said NOTHING wrong.
Hugs Stayed
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I agree with stayed 100%.
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That's the way MLCer work. No matter what you say or do, YOU ARE THE ONE AT FAULT in their mind.
Please my dear, stop regretting what you said. It doesn't matter whether she had it coming or not.. you said it, SO WHAT? Don't let her or ANYBODY manipulate you. You did and said NOTHING wrong.
So true.
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If telling someone the truth is the wrong thing to do in any relationship, then I just give up that relationship . Period. A true, lasting relationship is one where honesty, loyalty, respect and devotion thrive. It is one where communication and dedication abound. Not one of walking on glass, measuring every word, so as not to offend the other party by pointing out your own position. If the person truly loves you, he or she will understand what you are saying.
Bottom line, these people know what they are doing. They are not simply on auto pilot, with someone else "flying the plane". Acceptance of this truth is what leads to your forward movement.
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Some excellent posts here... 2.5 years post bd and my x still acts like a bratty teenager when things dont go her way. Not attractive. I do recognize that the old me would have felt how Hawk did. It is a learned behavior as a response to living with such a difficult person. Do the mirror work and you can break that cycle for yourself.
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Bottom line, these people know what they are doing. They are not simply on auto pilot, with someone else "flying the plane". Acceptance of this truth is what leads to your forward movement.
I so agree about that tocslave! My h told me so. Now, I have had RCR and some others tell me that we can't ALWAYS believe what a recovered MLCer says, because their views are skewered, you know, having had a mid life crisis and all. Their minds were in a fog the entire time and they don't remember what they did. According to my hubby, that is total POPPY COCK! He knew! He remembers! He knew it was wrong! He CHOSE to do it anyway because he felt he DESERVED to have his happiness, no matter who it hurt or effected.
I honestly believe that MLC is a depression of one sort or another. I truly believe that. I do NOT believe that they have AMNESIA once it is over. I think people being people, will do anything to hide their wrong doings. They will do anything to not feel badly about themselves. The problem is, BETRAYAL is a particularly heinous crime. It's not something that sends a person to jail generally, but nobody likes to be known as a lying, cheating, disloyal abandoner.
Sadly that is what our MLCer's are now. They have to own that about themselves and if they don't, I'm not sure that an LBSer can actually get past this. That cannot be done in any TWO week period of time. Anybody who believes they have only two weeks to get the truth from their returner is a fool, in my opinion. They didn't take two weeks to be crazy, they took as long as it took, well the same applies to the LBS. Sorry, but that's how I see it!
Again, just my opinion.
Hugs Stayed
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Amen, Stayed!
Phoenix
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ABSOLUTELY AMEN!!
J remembers clearly what he did and why. He just doesn't like talking about it anymore. He says he was a selfish ba$tard, and didn't care at the time he was hurting others. It was all about him. He hates the idea of amnesia though and says that's just another part of denial and excuses from a punk who isn't man enough to own what he did and is hiding still from growth and healing.
He also hates the idea that this is something like a disease. He says that is an easy excuse, an excuse for nasty behavior by a child. He said he made choices, choices to fall on the ow with his pants down, choices to run, and choices to live like he was the only one that had any value in the whole world. Owning that is his responsibility. He also said it was his responsibility to go to the doctor and have his head examined when he knew he wasn't thinking right. He chose not to and owns that as well. He realizes he has depression and knows when his pills aren't quite right so he takes responsibility for seeing the doc at those times.
The other day he was filling out some paperwork. I asked what he was doing. He said he was filling out his interview form for a new job. I said I didn't know he was applying.
He replied, "I'm not happy with my job so its my responsibility to change that. I can either look for a new job or suck it up and be a martyr. I'm no martyr. I'm in charge of my own happiness."
OK go big boy!
Lp
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Wow Law Professor, he's really is coming out of the crisis. He is lucky to have you to give him some directions now and then. It's a rather scary, lonely road I bet.
Hugs and well done J... I am really starting to like him... he sounds like my h. My h owns every single bit of this. He admits that he wasn't happy but it wasn't my job to make him happy. Instead he took his unhappiness out on me. He is very grateful that the kids and I have given him the chance to "redeem" himself. He is taking full advantage of the opportunity.
Hugs Stayed
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I honestly believe that MLC is a depression of one sort or another. I truly believe that. I do NOT believe that they have AMNESIA once it is over. I think people being people, will do anything to hide their wrong doings. They will do anything to not feel badly about themselves. The problem is, BETRAYAL is a particularly heinous crime. It's not something that sends a person to jail generally, but nobody likes to be known as a lying, cheating, disloyal abandoner
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I think it is a tenacious depression. And of course at some point, IF the couple reconciles, there is going to be accountability. However, before the mlcer is through the crisis I think it is futile to even think about responsibility. Except for the HS members who are reconciling, most of us are nowhere near communicating in any real way with our spouses. That doesn't mean the lbs is a doormat or that the mlcer won't remember what the lbs said. A few years later.
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In my opinion, the returned partner has to feel real REMORSE! In my experience, I have not seen a single MLCer who returned with true, blue remorse. Most returned with a great deal of sincere guilt and shame, but that is not the same thing as remorse, as we all know. Unless they reach remorse, as I said earlier guilt and shame, end up becoming anger and depression, which helps NOBODY!
As the left behind spouse no more, it is your job to make sure that you truly do forgive them, and that your returned MLCer totally grasps the HORROR of their behavior and how much they must now repent for their actions. Not only to their LBS but children, family and friends that they disappointed, abandoned and replaced during their crisis. Certainly, they need to learn about MLC. They need to understand what happened to them. Once they do that though, they truly must not HIDE BEHIND it as a very convenient excuse that allows them to downgrade their behavior to a "oops, me bad", sort of moment. This was far, far worse then that and we all know it.
For me this was the key for me and for her...Because like Stayed for years we were together but not reconciled. Seeing my wife be crazy, say she was sorry, and accept her actions as the horrible things that they were were reconnecting STEPS toward reconciliation...it was experiencing her True Remorse that lowered my shields enough to reconcile. As Stayed said...Falling back in Love with my wife at that point was easier than I expected...so was trusting her again...because the truth was out there and fully accepted by you both, and now these new stronger people with so many wonderful memories and shared experiences could leave the mushroom cloud behind.
Stayed said so much that was spot on with my own life...It is hard work...it is a slow dance where you stop throwing truth darts and just start honestly communicating. Getting through it can be difficult but you have to put in the effort to lead by healing yourself and give them the time it takes to do the same...it can be worth it.
V...I think that Stayed answered your question for me as well...just thought I'd add my 2 pennys...
Stay Strong.
BB
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It is hard work...it is a slow dance where you stop throwing truth darts and just start honestly communicating. Getting through it can be difficult but you have to put in the effort to lead by healing yourself and give them the time it takes to do the same...it can be worth it.
I have also stopped worrying about what I say, if it sounds like I am throwing it back in his face. Let's be honest, all this stuff happened. He did this... this is his to deal with. It's not my job to reassure him although I certainly do tell him, it's in the past and he is doing a great job of making a new future. Other then that, what can I say? I have forgiven him, he has to forgive himself. I will not pander to his feelings, as that honestly doesn't help. I certainly let him know, that I am proud of how he has come back from this, faced/facing his demons and mostly about how well he has OWNED what he did.
Still, we do not avoid those horrible years. We actually call them "the time of our troubles". Sadly our life is punctuated with before the time of our troubles and after the time of our troubles. That is our life. This is now a part of who we are. We have not only survived it though, we are literally thriving.
The thing is, whether people reconcile or not, we all can and do survive this and usually far better then we ever expected. If we are not thriving, we simply didn't do the work that was required to live well. That means, back to the drawing board. It's never too late to FIX your own personal life. We all know we can't fix anybody else but we sure as hell can give ourselves our lives back.
We owe it to ourselves, our children if we have any and the world in general... lol perhaps I reached a bit too far there eh?
hugs Stayed
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We owe it to ourselves, our children if we have any and the world in general... lol perhaps I reached a bit too far there eh?
Not at all! In my opinion, if what you just said doesn't restore 'hope' to everyone, then they just don't really want it. :)
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I think the one aspect most variable among reconciliation stories is the pacing. When do you "hold their feet to the fire", and when do you let time heal? Do you really have a two week window to get all your questions out, is this a 'speak now or forever hold your peace' part of the marriage? Do they have to show remorse before they get let back in the door, and if they don't exhibit sufficient remorse, is their return all just "rug-sweeping"?
I suspect those who are going / have gone through a reconciliation have time-compressed their memories, so with the blurring of time it feels like our spouses 'got it' right away, yes we held them accountable, yes indeed. I'm guilty of thinking this way, it makes me feel better about myself! But as someone wisely noted downthread, it takes as long for a soul to get out of this mess as it took to get into it. And most MLCers, if they do return, return undercooked and stumble through the rest of their journey at home, cycling, and clearly not in a state of grace and remorse. These timelines don't jive.
There is an organic quality to a return. We will ask the right questions when we're ready to deal with the answers. Our MLCers will answer those questions only when they're ready to deal with the emotional fallout. Can't underestimate the avoidance - they've accumulated guilt like a mountain of $h!te, would you want to start eating that pile of guilt? And yet, eat they must, one mouthful at a time, if they want to reconcile and find peace in themselves. So they start... and then they get emotional indigestion and pause for a while, maybe backpedal... and then they see in us something that they want back desperately enough, that they go back to tackling the mountain.
Ever since my H started honestly facing up to what he did, I've been having nightmares. I used to be a legendary sound sleeper; now almost every night between 4 and 5, I wake with the most awful dreams, all death, mayhem, abandonment, no chance of getting back to sleep. I've concluded that I also have to digest H's mountain; and I also need time to process it. Now I ask questions only when I'm ready to deal with the fallout. The dreams haven't stopped. Accountability? Yes, I think we'll get there. When I'm ready. I think. Ten years from now, I'm sure I'll remember this as having happened over a matter of weeks. Not years.
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I suspect those who are going / have gone through a reconciliation have time-compressed their memories, so with the blurring of time it feels like our spouses 'got it' right away, yes we held them accountable, yes indeed. I'm guilty of thinking this way, it makes me feel better about myself! But as someone wisely noted downthread, it takes as long for a soul to get out of this mess as it took to get into it. And most MLCers, if they do return, return undercooked and stumble through the rest of their journey at home, cycling, and clearly not in a state of grace and remorse. These timelines don't jive.
There is an organic quality to a return. We will ask the right questions when we're ready to deal with the answers. Our MLCers will answer those questions only when they're ready to deal with the emotional fallout.
I totally agree OSB. Thank you for writing this. It has been my experience so far as well...... :)
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Those sound like wise words, osb. It seems to be what those that I have known IRL the have reconciled have experiences.
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I wish it were a compressed timeline but j has been slogging through this ending for well over 2 years. Its been a long 2 years plus. Yes, I held his feet to the fire at varying degrees of heat level for the whole time I'd say. The fire just burned hotter at times than others according to my needs. We each have our own style.
Lp
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Thanks for everyone's insight into this topic. I've read some powerful posts especially from those who have reconciled / are in the process...
Osb, what you wrote about the dreams really hit me.
I have a similar experience (but without a MCL spouse return)
I've chalked it up to the experience and fears that came with the abandonment from my spouse. Also coupled with my father's death.
It's like a mild ptsd experience. It's scary at times.
I wake up and hug a Catholic religious picture that my dad gave me after a trip he took years ago to Medjugorje.
Then I reach for my dog who sleeps where my husband used to :'(
CallingHeart
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Compressed time! What is compressed about 3 years before you even begin to believe they are really, truly back. Trust, please, there was no way I totally trusted my h at the 3 year point. We are now in the 10 year and I can honestly say that I have found some of my former trust for him.
No, I don't have nightmares anymore, not at all but I have not FORGOTTEN. I know that is never going to happen and so does my h. As for digesting this crap, absolutely, man, that took time... years.
I know most of you think I am the hardest a$$ ever, but my h doesn't see it that way and as I have said, we are now in our 10TH. year of reconciliation. He did not see me as being tough, he saw me as being honest. He saw that he had betrayed everything I believed in him and he knew it was going to take a long time for me to trust him, even half as much as I did before the time of our troubles.
I don't know how many times I have said he returned HALF BAKED... he came home determined to run the show, because he honestly felt that I would let him. Based on our old marriage, he had no reason to think otherwise. Seriously though, I could not allow that to happen. I had to be sure in my mind that he was back with me because he loved me, missed me and wanted to spend the rest of his life with me. I didn't want to be second best to a FAILED EXPERIMENT that he once tried and somehow just didn't work out, so he crawled back to his security blanket!
Surviving Infidelity claims it take two years for every year of betrayal, MINIMUM! Personally, I believe that. IN fact, my personal experience, I would suggest more like 3 years for every year of betrayal.
This is very difficult. I may not have the exact time frame correct but I can assure you, I HAVE FORGOTTEN NOTHING! I doubt I ever will.
hugs Stayed
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To those reconciled,
I am at a place where im not quite sure if i want to stand anymore. The reason being is my h has been so many places with this woman and has done so many things that i wanted to do with h. Im wondering if you all were the same. I mean my hs job took him from city to city where ow would meet him. Places i wanted to go. He took her to the other places where i stood as his wife .she was put in my spot. That hurts deeply. Some of what i read said when redonciled that didnt seem to matter much. How do you get over that? . It is not about forgiveness its that you cant forget. How do you truly recover? For me i dont care about the sex its the casuality and the fun and the places and the things they did. Thats all i can picture. Them in hots tubs ,getting massages . When i go out to eat ,i picutre them when i see other couples.
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Meditation! One woman pity parties! Stop sign techniques with a promise to wallow in my misery later that night but only if I STOPPED thinking about the situation now. Self bribing. Making deals with myself. I did it all.
Combating my hurt and anger took all of the things I mentioned above... pretty much used the whole entourage every day for a while as well. They taught me how to manage anger, anticipation, anxiety, over analyzing, self pity, disgust, bitterness...
Truth is keep believing, you can't let this win because if it does, you will end up being a bitter, angry person. That is no way to live.
Hugs Stayed
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Keep believing, I can so related to what your feeling.for me as well that's what has hurt my stand.
I also took a long hard look at My MIL, who went thru the same thing with FIL. She never dated, never moved on, that was over 20 years ago.
I doubt want to be her, it's been 4 years since his affair started. 3 years has been gone.our daughter got married Saturday .and the whole wedding, he treated me like I was invisible, and was even texting the OW pics of the wedding. That sealed the deal for me.
Like MLC, there's really no time line.... You know when your done.. Or not....
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Each of us copes differently, though the feelings are so familiar.
I think I anaesthetized myself, in some fashion. I mourned H like a dead man, even while he was at home raging next to me. And then I withdrew. Placed myself inside bubble wrap. Refused to permit myself anger. In the process, I refused to permit myself feelings. Went through life mechanically, planning for my future (which seemed inevitable at the time). Got a life; enjoyed it, even; but it felt unreal to me. Was I done? Well, I don't think I asked myself that particular question, since it didn't matter (H being a few slices short of a loaf at the time, his returning was unlikely, and my assenting even more unlikely). In retrospect, no I wasn't done.
Since we started reconciling, I think the most difficult thing has been for me to permit myself to feel anything again. It's so much easier to pretend, to let the questions go unanswered. But gradually I've got to scratch through the clear plastic, until I draw blood, until it runs clean. That's where all the nightmares come from, I think. A daily effort.
Stayed, I'm rather counting on your timeline; post BD, my H was in MLC for three years, then has been home for two years, though a halfways sensible human being for only the last year. You're so right, one doesn't forget. I'd really like my amygdala to forget, though; I'm looking forward to sleeping though the night.
(modified because I actually lost track of years and had to go back and think about the calendar...!) ::)
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Half the time this works for now since h is still in the tunnel but i guess i am more asking after word. Is it really worth it? As time goes by do those thoughts of h and ow just seem far far away? Thanks
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osb, I once read that a study of soldiers found that in active combat, soldiers had soothing dreams. It was only when they returned home and were safe could they have nightmares.
The conclusion was that perhaps the mind needed to soothe itself in order to face danger; once the danger had passed the psyche could process what it had experienced.
In this light, the nightmares might actually be an acknowledgement you are finally safe.
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Keep believing posted:
i guess i am more asking after word. Is it really worth it?
Then I read WithGod's help post from today at
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=8213.msg543081#msg543081
Thanks for the replys ;D ;D ;D just a little update h is finally becoming a better version of the man he was pre-mlc. his memory is getting much better in fact I finally feel like he's my husband, best friend and a father again, not that he was a bad one before mlc however I feel because he nearly lost all us, he's become more focused on what family means....the kids have a brilliant relationship with their dad something I never thought would happen after he went from a dad to stranger basically overnight with them....we continue to improve on our relationship everyday it's been along hard slog but I finally feel like I can breathe and let go of that weight I carried on my shoulders for nearly 8 years
From the many reconciliation stories I have read, it seems to be that it is VERY WORTH IT.
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Doesn't the questioning of this thread suggest that the return/not return of our spouses depends on our actions? After reading all the materials concerning MLC, as well as listening to much wiser and experience fellow LBSs the main conclusion I made is their behavior is not determined or impacted by our behavior. As a matter of fact, all the advice that is given suggests that we cannot influence MLC process and MLC er, the only person we can, indeed influence is us.
I told my H. who wanted to come back 9 months past BD that we were not ready to live together, as I believe he has not done his work and I have not finished my healing. My goal is not being married to someone who disrespects, lies, takes me for granted, etc. My goal is to have a meaningful, respectful, and trusting relationships. If that is possible with my H in the future, I cannot tell, most probably not, given his family's history of mental illnesses, inability to take responsibility for one's actions, etc. But I know for sure, that I will not sacrifice my dignity for the sake of marriage. It is just plain wrong. I live a good life with my kids, because I live it honestly and in peace with myself.
It is hard to recover from betrayals, all those rude and offensive words, the name calling, unhinged anger directed at you, etc. But it is impossible to recover if the forgiveness is not sought properly, not shown in actions, and there is no accountability whatsoever. Maybe, I ask for too much, but I think I deserve it. I do not need a man to make me happy. It would be nice, of course one day to have someone to share a laughter with, for example. But that somebody, whoever he is should be a worthy person. My H. MLC was not all doom and gloom for me, it was/is rather empowering for me to know that I can survive and thrive, in the country where I do not have roots, family, close friends, and connections. That I am the somebody my children look up to. I am happy to eat dinner every night with the best people on this planet, my S3 and D9. Love to all of you.
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Doesn't the questioning of this thread suggest that the return/not return of our spouses depends on our actions? After reading all the materials concerning MLC, as well as listening to much wiser and experience fellow LBSs the main conclusion I made is their behavior is not determined or impacted by our behavior. As a matter of fact, all the advice that is given suggests that we cannot influence MLC process and MLC er, the only person we can, indeed influence is us.
This is a contradiction we skate around and around on HS. I don't believe there's anything we can do except get the heck out of their way and live our lives. If the couple is reconciling, that's a different thing.
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I am at a place where im not quite sure if i want to stand anymore. The reason being is my h has been so many places with this woman and has done so many things that i wanted to do with h. Im wondering if you all were the same. I mean my hs job took him from city to city where ow would meet him. Places i wanted to go. He took her to the other places where i stood as his wife .she was put in my spot. That hurts deeply. Some of what i read said when redonciled that didnt seem to matter much. How do you get over that? . It is not about forgiveness its that you cant forget. How do you truly recover? For me i dont care about the sex its the casuality and the fun and the places and the things they did. Thats all i can picture. Them in hots tubs ,getting massages . When i go out to eat ,i picutre them when i see other couples.
This is what the MLCer does - this is typical replay and I think KB you have to accept this as part of the process and perhaps take your eyes off reconciliation and more on to your mirror work.
I absolutely get what you are saying and told my H (stay at home replayer with OW for 3.5 years now) that he had robbed me of every memory we had because he had re-lived them them with OW. I said it calmly but with intense anger and told him that he had no right to do that. He had destroyed memories that were just ours and I doubted I could ever look at them as positively as I used to. He sat there mute and nodded quietly.
It really hurts because you want to know why, how, what motivates them.... However this is what makes you become bitter. That which we resist persists and that is why it is important to become a student of MLC - get to know it and then leave them to it. It is what it is and all you can do is create a life for you.
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We are here to support not dictate. Everybody must do what they feel is best for them. We suggest STANDING because it protects us from perhaps entering another relationship too soon, or retaliate out of vengeance and anger. We all know how painful this is and we all know we do not want to do any more damage to ourselves, our spouses and our families. So we grant ourselves a period of grace. A period of time to grieve, mourn and hopefully heal. A period of time to do a lot of mirror work. A period of time to restore our self esteem, renew our self worth and take back our lives.
I'm with Calamity, get out of the MLC's way. Leave him/her to it. I'm also with Songanddance, protect yourself from becoming angry and bitter, I can't think of anything worse that could happen to anybody. As long as we are true to ourselves, I truly believe our lives will work out just fine.
Whatever the outcome, we strive to use this time productively, as we know, life goes on, with or without our spouse. Life is a beautiful thing and to waste it is truly a crime.
Hugs Stayed
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We suggest STANDING because it protects us from perhaps entering another relationship too soon, or retaliate out of vengeance and anger. We all know how painful
this is and we all know we do not want to do any more damage to ourselves, our spouses and our families. So we grant ourselves a period of grace. A period of time to
grieve, mourn and hopefully heal. A period of time to do a lot of mirror work. A period of time to restore our self esteem, renew our self worth and take back our lives.
Whatever the outcome, we strive to use this time productively, as we know, life goes on, with or without our spouse. Life is a beautiful thing and to waste it is truly a crime.
Dear Stayed,
This is the all-time BEST explanation that I have EVER seen here... because this is NOT about the Mid-Lifer, this is about US, the forsaken spouse... This is about OUR healing and OUR growth, no matter what our mid-lifer chooses to do because, in the end, it is their decision and their choice.. they are NOT criminally insane where a judge can say that they do not know right from wrong. If that were the case, there would be definitions and protocols for dealing with this just like any other illness or disease.
This is about reclaiming OUR power that we have given away in the course of our relationships. It is about learning (or relearning) who we are as humans - reestablishing that person that our mid-lifer found so irresistible in the first place but NOT DOING IT FOR THEM OR TO GET THEM BACK. Rather doing it for US to be the people we were always meant to be.
new thread: http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=8389.0