Midlife Crisis: Support for Left Behind Spouses
Archives => Archived Topics => Topic started by: bluerose on September 30, 2018, 06:59:28 AM
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There you go.
Previous thread: https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=10310.0
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The clanishers of the vanishers!! ( I forget who came up with that term but I love it)
It just shows for those of you that had a spouse just disappear, you are not alone AND it’s normal to have a million questions that keep spinning in your mind.
19 threads and still going strong.
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Most of us with (mostly) vanishers, while grateful to not have the mind**kery of monster boomerangs, maybe live for a bit longer with doubt about MLC because the crazy is not so visible. Initially, I definitely felt as if I was 'less' somehow because my h deemed me not worth a conversation, explanation, apology or even a goodbye. It is quite brutal when a long-term spouse goes poof and I think it took me longer to see the difference between old h and new in that kind of vacuum. And it hurt like hell when people on HS said that vanishers are least likely to reconnect. Now I see that it is just different versions of a s$it sandwich and there is a peace in absence which is much less exhausting than the pop-up rollercoaster that others have had more of than me. And maybe it makes it more obvious that, as sane decent grown ups don't do this, the broken bits are about them not us.
I suspect their 'vanishing' is more about their cowardice and guilt like the one of the famous monkeys with hands over their eyes screaming internally 'if I can't see it, it's not there' than who we are or even who were to them. Really they just run away from the hard uncomfortable stuff of life, I suppose. No idea if my xh thinks of me at all but there is anecdotal evidence that some vanishers do. But still brutal and damaging to one's sense of reality to be ghosted by a spouse of many years as if you were an unfortunate short-term hook up ::)
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The coward used to say " out of sight,out of mind." He obviously lives by that now. One of his new 10 commadments.
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Would that be like the one "Thou shall not commit Adultery?" ::)
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Haha Thunder. I dont think so. I dont think your h had an ow, correct me if im wrong. Its not adultery if he didnt feel like he was married anymore. That changes the rules about being faithful.
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Just got back from a walk and found myself musing on the following question...
If you have a Vanisher, does it matter if it is MLC or not to you?
I can see why in the immediate post-bd shock, it matters because we are so blindsided and want hope or reassurance that it isn't our fault maybe, and that we are not insane.
And I can see why it helps for those who are trying to navigate dealing with their spouses behaviour on a regular basis.
But does it matter with a spouse who ran away and is never/ rarely in contact?
Practically for me, my new normal is just the same if my h had MLC or if he ran off because he decided he no longer loved me or wanted a different life/wife....either way, running away is a immature selfish cruel thing to do to your spouse isn't it? And unless I was so horrible or scary that I was impossible to talk to ha ha, still not my fault.
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Actually, regardless of “type”, I’m not sure if MLC should matter for any of them.
What is MLC anyways and is it even a real thing? Usually if the subject comes up, even people on here often can’t agree.
Some kind of depression? That’s what makes most sense to me, but it still doesn’t matter, unless he reached out for help.
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Haha Thunder. I dont think so. I dont think your h had an ow, correct me if im wrong. Its not adultery if he didnt feel like he was married anymore. That changes the rules about being faithful.
My xH argued this one too me while we were still married. Once they decide it's done, they're free.
I can see why in the immediate post-bd shock, it matters because we are so blindsided and want hope or reassurance that it isn't our fault maybe, and that we are not insane.
And I can see why it helps for those who are trying to navigate dealing with their spouses behaviour on a regular basis.
I absolutely agree Treasur. I knew from my dad's divorces that likely once everything was final we would never see or hear from each other again (especially since he ran thousands of miles away). I didn't expect that to happen before the settlement was reached, as I thought the courts themselves would turn the wheels (spoiler alert: nope!). You feel like there is the suspension of your life while you're still bound to them in some way. But it's healthier in some ways to just keep rolling with it and not worry about what they do, what might be happening, etc. Just get on with living without them. MLC or not, if you live for the knock at the door you're giving away your most precious asset, which is of course, time. There are no guarantees for anyone, no matter how predictable any syndrome or crisis is.
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I do think Mlc is a crisis due to the nuclear fallout and odd behaviours but in the end the outcome is the same, just takes longer and follow the yellow firetrhcking road!!
I had a clinging boomerang who changed to a vanisher. For me and this is purely on how I feel, I do prefer a vanisher apart from one part. As a clinger h was in my face and his confusion, tears, multiple returns and lies, boy could he suddenly lie, took such a toll on myself and my children. I felt anxious and desperate all the time. A nervous wreck but at the same time I could see what was coming. I prefer the peace of a vanisher but I have no idea when or what is being thrown at me next.
I do wonder when the next bomb hits, will it hit harder or not. I’m hoping not as for me I have grown much stronger without a depressed, crying, mean , blaming man constantly wearing me down. Xx
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I have an odd question - since with a Vanisher I do not have any interactions or monstering going on, how long before we actually fall out of love with them ? I knew I would always love that man regardless if he left or not, but I did not count on still being in love with him. Does that ever go away ?
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Would we pressure ourselves to "fall out of love" with our spouse if they had died?
I prefer to hold on to the great memories we had when he was a good man with love.
That's what works for me, anyways.
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As part of my PTSD therapy I've had to give an overview of my life and the traumatic events. Fortunately it wasn't as scary to do as I thought :) but it has made me realise that a bit of me is almost afraid to look at the good memories now...even if to just pack them away...
I want to remember the good because there was a lot of it and I don't want to rewrite my years with my h as a terrible mistake or lie just because he did...but I'm a bit scared that seeing the good will hurt again to have lost it if that makes sense? It is easier to write v2 off as he is self-evidently a toxic thing that wishes me nothing good to be avoided, so it's a conundrum that I haven't made peace with quite yet. But it feels necessary to do so somehow so I don't have to throw 20 years of my own life in the bin as I guess he has done....so, a PTSD work in progress for me but I hope I get to a point when I can love the imperfect man I knew and enjoyed without staying stuck in the past that no longer exists.
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I don't have a good answer, except that it takes time.
About six months after The Leaver left me, I was having lunch with a group of co-workers in the cafeteria. Someone brought up anniversary rings and I started to tell them how The Leaver secretly retrieved my ring out of my jewelry box and had my engagement ring reset with more diamonds. Even though I still hold that memory of him as one of my favorites and couldn't get the words out without choking up. I had to leave the lunch room and ball my eyes out in the ladies room.
Now I like to recall the story with a smile on my face, and love in my heart.
The original ring was precious b/c we barely had enough for food when he bought it. He secretly made weekly payments for over a year before he could buy it and give it to me. Then when we started to make more money, he made sure I had the ring that he felt I really deserved. I was so beautiful, not just the ring, but how he spent so much time thinking how to make it perfect for me.
I know he loved me, unlike many others, I don't doubt it at all because of these memories. I remember him asking me to sit next to him (I had no idea what he had done) with a huge smile on his face. He told me how much I had meant to him with tears in his eyes as he handed me the new and improved ring. He was a good man, a hard-working man that gave our family every penny he earned until he changed in Mr-Weird-Sugar-Daddy-MLC Man.
I don't want to forget who he used to be.
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I think - most of the time - I also believe my h really loved and liked me.
And I have chewed hard on the possibility that I was wrong...but never quite felt that was the truth
Even when it might have been easier or less confusing to think so.
Like you I have lots of memories like that and it was obvious to everyone who knew us
So the Disappearing MLC version was a shock all round!
Maybe you've inspired me to look at that before I pack it away....it was lovely to be loved and love someone like that, and I still think it was a rare blessing to experience it
But of course that is why it is so bewildering that someone would choose to destroy it as if it was worthless....it certainly wasn't worthless to me or easily discarded.
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Shratz66: I have the same thought. It has been 4 years since BD, and almost a year since I have seen him or heard his voice. Yet, I still love him as much as I ever did. I wonder when the feelings will weaken or completely go away. I am building a new life, have a career, keep busy, but still wonder when I will "get over this." I am finding that time does not heal all wounds. I know I have seen this question may times, but I do think about whether he misses me, wants to call, but doesn't, remembers me when he hears a song, has any love left for me as you would a spouse --- not a friend. He said it all evaporated - could that really be true, and if yes, why not for me?
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He said it all evaporated - could that really be true, and if yes, why not for me?
I think this is what points to some kind of crisis or mental health issue. People stop loving their partners, that's true. But for all feeling to disappear and for them to not even care about our basic well-being anymore after so many years is so clearly a much bigger issue.
I used to wonder if my H wanted to call me but just didn't act, but once he changed his phone number I realized that I'd just been wanting that to be true. That's just what's true in my case.
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At 33 months post BD and my MLCer having married the OW, I don't believe that time heals all wounds. My goal has never been to get over it. My goal is to get through it and live each day to the fullest I can.
I work at it every day.
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Here here, sb.
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I too feel as you all do. Like Nas my X changed his number and did not bother to let me know. (I know because of my kids) I know I still am in love the man that was once my kind, reasonable, fun h. I have come to the conclusion l do not have the energy to care at the moment. I no longer look for him everywhere I go.
I like sb's goal! On ward and up ward!
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Would we pressure ourselves to "fall out of love" with our spouse if they had died?
No. But a dead spouse didn't leave us the way a MLCer did nor is living with OW/OM, or married OW/OM. The two situations aren't comparable.
I prefer to hold on to the great memories we had when he was a good man with love.
Sure. But, at a point, those memories fade, at least mine had. It was all too long ago. Do you still have so many, and so present memories of your MLCer? You have a new husband and a new life. How much space do those memories take?
I don't want to forget who he used to be.
To me, it no longer makes much of a difference who Mr J used to be. He is not that person anymore and has not been in over a decade.
People stop loving their partners but they don't act the way MLCers do.
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With time and a new day to day life, of course some of our memories fade. But as with any bereavement/loss, there are others that are just part of who we are and our path to right now and it is nice if they can raise a smile rather than cause us pain.
I'm with SB....and there is something really painful about their remarriage but it does stop you hoping or watching...I may never 'get over it' and it was life- altering but my goal is to live happily and fruitfully again despite it all. Easier some days than others.
There is just an inherent cognitive dissonance in it.
I loved and liked my h, and I don't regret doing so as it brought me years of joy. As far as I can see, that person no longer exists by my h's choice so it feels a bit like he died.
And
I inadvertently shared my life with someone who was capable of abandoning me when I was bereaved and being indifferent and incomprehensibly cruel, and that bonkers rollercoaster cost me a lot and brought me unimiganable pain. That person who looks a bit like my h is somewhere living a new life and is to be avoided for my own safety and sanity.
Both things are true.
I think each of us find our own way to make peace with it depending on our own situation. Mine has definitely been shaped by other simultaneous bereavements and by the fact that I have no kids or siblings so have felt very alone at times.
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It is too early for you Treasur. It has been 12 years for me. It is totally different after 12 years. Especially if the MLCer and LBS do not have contact.
Sure, if it better if a memory rises a smile than hurt.
I inadvertently shared my life with someone who was capable of abandoning me when I was bereaved and being indifferent and incomprehensibly cruel, and that bonkers rollercoaster cost me a lot and brought me unimiganable pain.
You still think the problem somehow is you/the marriage/your real husband and that you shared a life with someone that was not who you thought he was. He was. Then MLC come and he was no more. What would be the sense of preserving memories if he had always been like the MLC person?
Your MLCer was not more cruel than many of our MLCers. Some of us have MLCers who were far more cruel than yours - I am not being subjective here - and you know it. I see too much self-pity and too much I had this really, really horrible cruel MLCer when he was/is just a standard MLCer.
Do you think ours didn't brough us unimiganable pain?
You will get over it. With time.
I see you constantly oscilatting between being all hurt, upset and between deciding to be over it in X amount of time. Or the it has been 3 years, I should be feeling like this instead of the way I do. That is not how it works. It takes a long time and trying to rush things does not work.
I also have no kids. Ready2 also have no kids. Others also have no kids. Other were left when seriously ill.
I don't know about remarriage. Mr J didn't remarry. For all I know we are still legally married. I was the one who used to want to remarry, not him. But, if the MLCer has remarried, shouldn't that be one more reason to put an end to the matter for good?
Treasur, we have all lost our marriage and spouse - except for those reconnecting and reconciled - but some of us have lost far more tha n that. You are not one of those. You have money for a house, a good life, a good job, etc. You were not physically hurt. Your mids were not taken from you/turned agains you.
Maybe you should try to put things in perspective and think/see that others have/had it far worse than you.
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I appreciate the dose of reality, Anjae, and of course any pain is not competitive.
I certainly don't see my xh as 'worse'...and try not to be quite so self pitying as I used to be....but it's also true that my finances are fragile, I no longer own my home for the first time since I was 21, I have lost both my family and my in laws have cut me dead too, I lost my old business, home, had death threats that were frightening to live through and the mindf**k of seeing my xh get remarried within weeks...it really wasn't as simple as you make it sound LOL. None of which is to claim a 'worst MLC' award ha ha - who would want such a thing - but just the reality of where my rebuild at 54 starts from. A mostly vanisher has saved me from a lot of things, but it also took away a lot of things too. Really all I have is me, my uncle and a few good chums most of whom live some hours away. :) - even Louis the cat died ::) so I really am on my own right now and have been throughout this, which is also why HS has helped me so much when I had no one else to talk to.
I suppose where I differ on the 'real vs MLC person' is that logic tells me that, even if neither he nor I knew it, the darkness of the MLC version IS part of the whole of who my xh is. He is capable of doing these things because he did them and continued to do them. His crisis may have unearthed this part of him as my own response to trauma and grief has shown me some dark bits of myself tbh, but these dark angry destructive things are part of both of us. My challenge is to manage mine and keep away from his. What he does with his demons now is his business. I try to balance my selfcriticism about feeling stuck sometimes with a healthy impatience to get unstuck from the after effects of this life experience, sometimes better than other days Lol.
I see too much self-pity and too much I had this really, really horrible cruel MLCer when he was/is just a standard MLCer.
Maybe you should try to put things in perspective and think/see that others have/had it far worse than you.
I don't know if it is what you meant, but your post did sound a bit like 'get over it, Treasur, you have no right to feel as you do because others have it much worse than you'? And I don't think I have ever claimed that my xh is special, different or worse than any other, just that I have shared the same sense of bewilderment as everyone else at his behaviour. If that is what you meant to say, I'm not sure why you want to judge me so harshly and shall humorously blow you a raspberry of pffft. :) if not, I apologise for misinterpreting you and thank you for the opportunity to voice and respect my own needs and feelings about where I am right now ;)
I often see postings and think 'thank God that's not happening to me', true enough, but my feelings about what has happened to me are my reality and don't need to be justified or weighed in comparison here or in RL. I can only work with where I am and who I am and how I feel...and that is good enough. I'm sure you are right that Time as well as healthy effort will bring me to a different perspective but,valuable as it is to learn from veterans like you, I also hope that I am not here on HS regularly posting in ten years time because MLC - and its fallout - is no longer part of my real life as it still is now.
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It is not as simple as I put it, but it is also not so dire.
If it was get over it Treaur I would had not said it is still too early and that it takes time. It really was put things into perspective. In my case it would be something like, Mr J was as nasty as he was, but, at least, he didn't try to run me over with a car and took my kids, like In It's husband did.
Time will get you over it. But for now, it is too soon. And it may still be too sonnfor a good while. And at point may come when you think it is all behind you, just for something to bring back some stuff. There is not timeframe.
Did he ever did anything like this before MLC? If not, of course it come with MLC and it his MLC version. It is the same with depression. Depression will lead people to do things they haven't done before. Since depression is part of MLC, real odd things are going to happen.
Everyone is capable of doing those very same things, with the variations of each specific person, providing they are having a MLC/depressed. Think about war and the brutal things normal people do at war. Extreme conditions lead to extreme behaviours.
You may still be posting in 10 years. It does not mean you will be where you are now. You will not. At a point, HS becomes a nice club to chat. And exxhange idead about a subject that affect far more than our spouses. MCL affecst relatives and friends as well. At times, even the LBS.
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Hi Treasur.
I hope you are well and having a good day up on the coast north of me. I think winter is coming.
Thank you for your posts and insights on here and on my own blog they are much appreciated.
Take care DW
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Treasur
No one can rewrite history....our children, family, friends, colleagues and us know what our relationships we had with our MLCers were. Photos don't lie. Unconditional love is real....it does not fade away with a MLC. I for one will never forget the love and the memories.....and I believe that the Mlcer is the same. I hope I never become so angry with hatred that my memories fade.
Yes I still have a intuition that my relationship with my MLCer is not final.....I can not explain it....I believe that connection will remain.....we carry on our life living the best we can as a family (without the Mlcer)....I trust fate.... If he is meant to be in our lives again he will catch up....and oh boy will he have some damage to repair 🤔....nothing is ever impossible.
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Bren, I have the same intuition, but wonder some times if it's not just wishful thinking.
I cannot explain it but somewhere deep inside I know we are not done - then again, maybe that just means I am bonkers...lol
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I don't see too much self-pity in Treasur or anyone's posts. And I've been the queen of self-pity so if anyone would recognize it in others, it should be me.
We have been traumatized, plain and simple. And HS is a place to come and work out how we're feeling because the real world wants us to just get over it, find a new partner and move on as fast as possible so they don't have to feel uncomfortable around our pain. When we come here, we need to feel safe to let out whatever is inside us that needs to be released or explored. That includes discussing how "bad" our MLCer is, ways in which we might still be personalizing things, and lamenting things we've lost as a result of someone else's decisions and behaviors.
We, the clanishers of vanishers, have virtually nowhere else to do that but here. We can't talk to our MLCers. At a certain point, after enough time has passed, our friends and family seem to expect us to erase the MLCer from our lives and memories and not speak of them anymore.
Even this past weekend, when my brother ran into H's best friend, after he told me about it, he felt the need to tell me he thinks I should just divorce H and forget about trying to get the retirement fund, just write it off as a huge loss and shut all doors to H and live my life as if H doesn't exist anymore.
That's what he wants, because then the situation is over from his perspective. No more having to deal with Nas's uncomfortable situation.
This is what we have. We have HS, and for those of us with vanishers, we have this vanisher's thread.
I've just seen too much on various threads lately where people are saying things that (hopefully inadvertently) invalidate the feelings or beliefs of fellow LBSs - statements about LBSs wallowing in self-pity, suggestions that there is one category of "real" MLCers who have a chance of coming out of it. We ALL need to choose our words more carefully. None of us are experts. Reading every article by RCR and HB and everything Jim Conway 10,000 times still doesn't make anyone an expert. Every single thing any of us say on this site is our own hypothesizing, speculating and attempting to process what we have been through in our own personal situation.
We're all trying to process something most people cannot even imagine. We all have been through terrible experiences and just like we say no one knows how they would deal with MLC unless it actually happens to them, none of us know how we would deal with another LBS's situation unless it happens to us.
For me, having a vanisher has triggered every childhood insecurity about not being worthy of love, not being good enough for anyone, and has made me question every aspect of my past and present life. But how would I deal with having a live-in clinging boomerang for years on end? I have no idea.
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Well said Nas.
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To me, having a vanisher has been bliss. It was hell when Mr J was a clinger.
There is often self-pity on HS, Nas. It would be strange it there wasn't.
All LBS wallow in self-pity for a while. At a point, unless new things keep coming up - and for some of us they do, we start to get on our feet. A good suggestion is to use Stayed's allocated wallowing time. After a certain point, Stayed reserved a certain time/amount of time a day to wallow.
No one is an expert/who is an expert and how did experts become experts?
RCR created HS after her husband's crisis. That was all her experiece and that is what made her an expert (even if RCR does not call herself an expert).
Conway wrote about his MLC and he is considered and expert. His experience was his MLC. What was HB experience? Her husband's crisis and her own crisis.
What prevents any of us from writing a book, starting a website/forum and be a MLC expert? Nothing apart not wanting to.
If no one was an expert/had more knowledge there would be no way to help others. How would someone help a newbies of we didn't have the expertise and experience for it?
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Hey I haven’t replied to these threads for a while now but have watched and read along. But I really wanted to in this latest subject because it’s one that I think about a lot.
For the question of if/when do you fall out of love I think it’s a very tricky and confusing thing to answer. I’m only 2 years in to this but I know that the desperate feelings of clinging on to the idea of always being in love with my H left a while ago. I don’t love him I can’t because he doesn’t exist. I don’t know the person who exists now I don’t see him as the same as the person I knew. I look at old photos of us and I remember how I loved him but I also feel the pang of grief and loss because to me my H did die in a way. I don’t see the person that exists now as the same at all its almost as if they are two sepertw beings. And I have no love for the person that exists now. Maybe that makes me crazy but it’s just the way it is.
I have accepted that the person in those pictures has gone. I cannot answer how I would feel if my ex h turned up on the doorstep tomorrow. I don’t know if any compassion for the person I once knew would be there. The way I feel about the person that exists now is strong and the past and the person in those pics is changed forever because I can’t erase what’s happened enough. That doesn’t mean I didn’t love him less than any other Lbs, I fought hard to ‘stand’ just reading my old threads baffles me that I can feel so different because I was steadfast in my belief that I would always love him.
And this brings me on to memories. I struggle with old memories because while I can recall them and I know that there are many happy ones they all now kind of mean nothing. I don’t need to convince myself they were real I know they were but what’s happened since has rubbished them all. I can’t and won’t sit and reminisce or talk about ‘good old times’ because in a way even though I KNOW they exist I can’t feel them because I just can’t get passed what’s happened.
Our emotions are complex and I think I was once naive in thinking that true love couldn’t be shaken but it can. I know how I once felt and I know how I do now. Yet that doesn’t change the hurt, it doesn’t change still feeling like you have lost or had your life stolen from you even if you don’t now want it back...
As for does it matter if it’s MLc or not with a vanisher - yes in the sense at least that’s a reason for this madness. I am just someone who has to try and have an answer or a reason for something. And this was all so utterly crazy that at least the idea of MLC (which believe me I have doubted many times over) makes some sense of it. And I still question the whys and the wherefores but try and make peace with the fact that I may not ever get the answers and that’s the most difficult part. I want to know if I’m ever thought about, whether my ex h regrets, whether he will one day ever admit it. I still want vindication and that’s hard but I hope that as time passes I will care less about that too.
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There is often self-pity on HS, Nas. It would be strange it there wasn't.
All LBS wallow in self-pity for a while. At a point, unless new things keep coming up - and for some of us they do, we start to get on our feet. A good suggestion is to use Stayed's allocated wallowing time. After a certain point, Stayed reserved a certain time/amount of time a day to wallow.
What a absolutely horrible uncompassionate statement! This forum and in particular this Vanishers thread used to be a godsend for many offering support....is this not the case anymore?
Anjae your posts (on various threads) of recent have been very "attacking" and enforcing your opinions to many posters...unsure what is going on, but it is not what this forum is about and is definitely not your usual style?
Yes you may be an expert for your situation, but like what is constantly repeated on HS is that every case is different...whilst script remains similar timeframes do not.
I am sorry Anjae but your comment is totally so wrong. Self pity....if only I had time to wallow in self pity when raising 4 kids alone. I am pretty sure that RCR would be horrified by your statement like no doubt many followers of this Vanishers thread.
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I dont think Anjae meant what she said in a mean way. I think the point that she was trying to make was that we all on here pity ourselves at one point or another. Some of us longer than others and sometimes when new things happen with these mlcers its hard not to fall back into that self pity. I know that i have. Its hard not to think " why is this happening to me". I also think that Anjae was talking about how not to wallow in the self pity for a long time because its not good for any of us to do. I could be wrong but thats how i read it. We have all been through hell with mlc wether we have a vanisher or a clinger or whatever else is out there and i think the hurt and sensitivity of our emotions are very overwhelming at times. When we come here to vent its because we know that everyone understands what we are feeling. We dont have to convince anyone that this is real because it is. And we all know it. We all have our opinions and how we interpret them.
Bren, from reading what you have been through i understand the hell you have been through. My situation did not happen exactly the way yours did but i understand. My heart goes out to you. I hope your not upset.
For the question of when do you fall out of love with them. Its different for everyone. Some never will stop loving them. For me, it was dead at about the 3 year mark. I think it may have even been sooner but i was terrified if having no feelings for him that i held onto it tighter and longer than i should have. He doesnt deserve my love anymore. He killed it long ago when he chose to lay with another. I will not ever begin to forgive him for all that he has done to my kids (and continues to do) and to me. There is nothing he can do to fix it ever. The memories and love that i had for him i have chosen to let go of and forget. It is making the pain go away. I have however questioned if i ever really loved him. I cant answer that question because i dont know. It does feel like i am not divorced but a widow. My grieving over that loss is done but my grief for my kids is still there. It will be as long as he keeps continuing to hurt them.
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Anjae's tone might have come across as a bit harsh (and certainly few of us ghosted by vanishers or trying to deal with divorces from vanishers would describe it as bliss ::) ) but there is a balancing point between self-pity (which tended to make me feel more like a victim) and self-compassion (which feels more accepting and constructive).
As others say, the detail of our experiences may vary around some of the common script stuff and how we recover individually - and how long that takes - will vary too. And our perspective on others' experiences is naturally shaded by our own. But our self-pity is often a desparate search to feel heard and to receive the kind of empathy that is so thin on the ground from our spouses and others in RL....maybe it lasts until we feel heard enough or find our feet in the quicksand or until we are no longer under active attack from the situation?
I know that I felt like less of a victim when I was no longer exposed to the exhaustion of an MLC divorce or nasty anonymous notes...but sometimes I did feel pretty sorry for myself coming back from seeing my mother rage at me thinking I was the devil to an 'anonymous' note telling me that I was an ugly, old hag who had stopped my h finding his now true soulmate happiness or a piece of legal irrational 180 by my xh or happy snaps of their wedding while I was worrying about being homeless :) life didn't feel very fair and I had no one else but me to say 'you poor thing, how unfair and s$it is that because you don't deserve it'! So, I'll own my self pity as part of the process of being abused for reasons I can't comprehend by someone who used to love me and who I trusted. :) But it is true that we reach a point where the self pity doesn't do much and we stretch out for other feelings and actions that help more.
My own 'thin skin point' now is probably about my impatience and self-blame for having got stuck and still feeling not me and not normal after 3 bloody years...which is my issue to make peace with...but probably makes me a bit over sensitive to anything that sounds like a 'stop whining and get over it' message from someone else. :)...which is absolutely only my circus and my monkeys lol.
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I dont think Anjae meant what she said in a mean way. I think the point that she was trying to make was that we all on here pity ourselves at one point or another. Some of us longer than others and sometimes when new things happen with these mlcers its hard not to fall back into that self pity. I know that i have. Its hard not to think " why is this happening to me". I also think that Anjae was talking about how not to wallow in the self pity for a long time because its not good for any of us to do. I could be wrong but thats how i read it.
This. I have a vanisher and have had for a long time. As for Stayed's and her, at a point, giving herself a portion of time a day to wallow, it is an old, well known thing on HS that has been around since HS started.
Anyone who knows my story knows it was hell with my MCLer, physical violence included. However, a times comes, and that time is different for all of us, when all that will not be felt the way it was early on.
You all need to have in mind that Mr J left 12 years ago, I no longer have the raw pains of BD/early times. Just like when HS started RCR and Stayed were reconcilled and no longer had BD/early times pains.
I also had a MLCer that at first, and for a few years, was a clinger. It was hell when Mr J was a clinger. He was (still is) a very angry, nasty MLCer. Much better when there is no contact from him. I was clear to say to me it was bliss to have a vanisher, not it is bliss for everyone.
My own 'thin skin point' now is probably about my impatience and self-blame for having got stuck and still feeling not me and not normal after 3 bloody years...which is my issue to make peace with...but probably makes me a bit over sensitive to anything that sounds like a 'stop whining and get over it' message from someone else.
It is normal to still be "stuck" after 3 years and still not fell like ouslves. Especially when things keep coming at us. Eveyrone will move at their pace, but Stayed's ideias, like the a special time to wallow a day after a certain point in our jouney, or the rule of 3, 3 minutes, three hous, 3 days, 3 weeks, 3 months, before we do things (aside from an emergency) and the rubber band on the wrist to be pulled when we are about to do something "crazy"/less wise are goo ideas and have been used by many.
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Treasur, we have all lost our marriage and spouse - except for those reconnecting and reconciled - but some of us have lost far more tha n that. You are not one of those. You have money for a house, a good life, a good job, etc. You were not physically hurt. Your mids were not taken from you/turned agains you.
Maybe you should try to put things in perspective and think/see that others have/had it far worse than you.
Anjae-For many of us, the MLC experience is the worst thing that has ever happened to us in our lives. So really what does it matter that someone else might (subjectively in your opinion) have it worse? We only live our own lives, not those of others.
I have chosen to not tell my entire story publicly in this forum. Why? Because I know probably 98% of you would not actually put up with the situation I am in nor even be able to relate to it and many would pass moral judgment as well, and I would be constantly subjected to people telling me I should just end my stand and I would have to spend most of my time defending why I choose to stand. I wouldn't be surprised if others thought my H deserved the worst MLCer of the year award if they knew all that has happened but for me personally, there are other LBSes I would not want to trade places with either.
I would suspect there are a lot of people on here who don't tell the whole story of what has happened to them because they know they would be subjected to judgmental attitudes about the spouses they choose to stand for if they told the whole story here. I think in some cases what is going on is far worse than what people let on.
It's all subjective who has it "worse" but really we all are suffering our own personal hell. Yeah, I wouldn't want to be in your shoes, or Nas' shoes, or Treasur's shoes or anyone else's shoes here. But you know what, I don't want to be in the shoes I am in now either!
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I don't think anybody can compare their pain and loss.
What is bad to some may not be as bad to others.
Point plain and simple is we all are hurting. We all have lost.
Worst thing possible is for us(LBS) to down another LBS!!!!
Why!!!!!!
I feel for every single person on this site!!!!!
PERIOD!!!!!!!
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Goner, if having a live-in MLCer is horrible, one can always ask the live in MLCer to leave. Or leave. Or divorce the MLCer. I have always said that if Mr J had not left I would ask him to. There is no having OW and living with me. Some LBS manage to tolerate such situation, others do not.
The truth is, Goner, some of us suffered things others didn't. Hide it would be absurd. There is no point in pretending things are/were one way if they are not.
What would be the point of I, Savy, LP, In It and others to hide our MLCes were physically abusive?
I have chosen to not tell my entire story publicly in this forum. Why? Because I know probably 98% of you would not actually put up with the situation I am in nor even be able to relate to it and many would pass moral judgment as well, and I would be constantly subjected to people telling me I should just end my stand and I would have to spend most of my time defending why I choose to stand.
That is your choice. We can only go by what people write. If they decide to leave out some things, we cannot have those things as factors to the person's situation. We are not mind readers.
I would suspect there are a lot of people on here who don't tell the whole story of what has happened to them because they know they would be subjected to judgmental attitudes about the spouses they choose to stand for if they told the whole story here. I think in some cases what is going on is far worse than what people let on.
Maybe. That is those people's choice. Again, we can only go by what is writen. If people are hidding information they may be doing themselves a disservice, since we can not advice accordingly. We may even be giving totally wrong advice for the situation. But since we only have what has been written, that is all we can use.
Not even HB advices LBS to stay with a physically abusive MLCer. No one would.
Help, some MLCers are worst than others, some LBS had if worst than others. It is a fact.
I would love a nice, financial responsible MLCer. I have a horrible, physically abusive, nasty one. Of course a nice, financial responsible one is better than a nasty physically abusive one.
Trying to level everything does not make sense. Wonder why several of you are so unconfortable with the fact that some MLCers are beyond the pale and have done, or are still doing, truly horrible things.
I am not talking about people hurting, I am talking of actions/things they have done.
I feel for every single person on this site!!!!!
PERIOD!!!!!!!
That is different than thinking everyone has it the same good or bad. We don't. And different situations required different ways of dealing with the MLCer and different advice for the LBS.
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Surveys show that in most countries approximately 30% of women suffer violence at the hand of intimate partners.
I would say that far fewer than 30% of female LBSes on here have revealed that they have been abused, either by their current partner or previous ones. Even maybe 15-20% of men are abused by partners according to surveys. So that tells me it is highly likely there are many many LBS on here who aren't being completely forthright in this regard.
Why would they hide it? That's probably an individual matter so I can't speak for others. I would hazard a guess that they love their spouses and think that physical abuse is something that is tolerable and perhaps in their family or culture it is considered normal, maybe they even believe they deserve it, and they may not want anyone harping at them for not leaving their spouses for something that to them is acceptable.
But that's just a guess. We will never really know because if someone isn't revealing this about themselves, they also aren't going to say why they aren't telling us.
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I don't think anybody can compare their pain and loss.
What is bad to some may not be as bad to others.
Point plain and simple is we all are hurting. We all have lost.
Worst thing possible is for us(LBS) to down another LBS!!!!
Why!!!!!!
I feel for every single person on this site!!!!!
PERIOD!!!!!!!
Totally agree Helpingme.
"The Hero's Spouse Forum offers an understanding and supportive community along with a peer mentor program to guide you through the trauma of your spouse's midlife crisis and infidelity. Join us and meet friends who understand what you are going through"
I surely hope that many threads can get back on track again and offer support to every LBS instead of having posters attack other LBS's. No one is an expert on MLC irrespective of the length of time of their experience. Everyday we all learn something different. Everyone's story is different and deserves total respect and compassion.
We have all been put through the wringer and have suffered immensely. HS is a great "home" where the LBS can share their experiences, thoughts and emotions without judgement and receive compassion that we deserve. I seriously hope that our threads can get back on track.
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I agree with Helping too.
Anjae and Goner,
You are both making some good points, but this is such a complicated issue, with so many facets to it, we may never really solve what makes a person go in to a midlife crisis.
I think you both agree on:
Not every MLC is the same.
Not every situation is the same, it could depend on a variety of things. Culture, religious beliefs, etc..
Does every one on here have a spouse who is truly in MLC? Most, but I don't believe all. Sometimes the spouse really may have been unhappy in the marriage, for what ever reason, and they just want out.
We only hear what the LBS tells us about their story, their history.
The reasons for having a crisis varies too. Not all MLCer's had a bad childhood. It seems most have but not all. Sometimes it can result from a LBS who had the bad childhood and contributed to the break up. They could be unable to know how to have a healthy relationship.
There are people who have Avoidant Personalities. They may be just be emotionally insecure, with low self-esteem and not mature enough to deal with problems in an adult relationship.
Most have an alienator, but it's not always an ow/om. It could be their work they throw themselves into, or a hobby they become obsessed with.
It could also be a mental/personaliy disorder, or a hormonal issue. Hormones can play a big role in feeling bad and unhappy, in both men and women, especially in their 40's and 50's. Women losing Estrogen, men with low testosterone.
Other reasons could be heavy debt. To find you are bogged down with a lot of debt in middle age, can be very depressing.
Running away may sound really good to them. Start all over again.
Then we have aging, or the fear of. They look in the mirror one day and the person looking back at you is no longer 25. They see wrinkles and gray hair and panic. Maybe a little tire around your belly the didn't notice before. They no longer look young and it freaks them out. How did this happen? So they go to extremes to turn back the clock.
Just too many things can cause this to happen, and it's not always childhood issues.
Maybe we just need to agree that no matter what the reasons are/were, we have all been wounded by what has happened and be kind and supportive of each other.
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I think you both agree on:
Not every MLC is the same.
Not every situation is the same, it could depend on a variety of things. Culture, religious beliefs, etc..
I agree.
Does every one on here have a spouse who is truly in MLC? Most, but I don't believe all.
Also agree most here, but not all, have a spouse in MLC.
Then we have aging, or the fear of. They look in the mirror one day and the person looking back at you is no longer 25. They see wrinkles and gray hair and panic.
That one was always odd with Mr J. He was 36 but looked much younger. No grey hair, no wrinkles, and he looked pretty much like his 25 years old self.
Yet, he wouldn't stop the "I only have now to do this". Never knew if this was DJing, leaving, OW, the whole of it. Whatever it was, "now" become 12 years down the road.
Maybe we just need to agree that no matter what the reasons are/were, we have all been wounded by what has happened and be kind and supportive of each other.
I still don't think it makes sense to be giving advice to non-LC cases. Think of HS as a hospital. You don't go to a psychiatris if you have a broken leg. Nor to a dentist if you need a heart surgery. They are all doctors, but each as it range of action.
Wanting to be all things to all people does not work and takes from those who have a MLCer. That is, a spouse whose crisis has the potential to end.
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But the thing is we do not know, with any certainty, who is truly in MLC and who isn't.
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But we do know that if certain behaviours were there before MLC, then those behaviours are not MLC related. They may had been enhanced by MLC, but they were not brought by MLC.
Someone who always cheated is different from someone who only cheated because of MLC.
Someone who physically violent before MLC is different than someone who was physically during MLC. Someone who had manic and depressed episoded before MLC is different than someone for whom those episodes only come with MLC.
AIf someone has a spouse with a mental illness medically diagnosed before MLC, we know that mental illness is not going to go away.
If a LBS clearly states their spouse was diagnosed with a degenerative neurological disorder by a neurologist, it is not MLC. But we have people like that here.
If HS members think their spouses do not have MLC but something else be it NPD, borderline, bopolar, etc., and some do, then, HS may also not be the most logical place for them.
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But the thing is we do not know, with any certainty, who is truly in MLC and who isn't.
Totally agree Thunder. It is not up to fellow LBS's to judge others and decide in their partner in is not a Mlcer. We do not know the relationship they shared. It is our role to support not judge.
Realistically is any of our partners MLcers? There is no medical test to confirm 100%. All we can go by is by the symptoms and traits....ironically the symptoms just happen to be script for so many others....worldwide. Is this a coincidence? In my opinion I think not.
I do believe that most LBS's read up on Midlife marriage advocate and other websites prior to diagnosing their partners as having a MLC and joining our HS community. Dare say they would know their partners best. Yes some non-MLCers may slip through, but i dare say this number would be very few.
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Realistically is any of our partners MLcers?
Yes. There is a MLC script that is recognisable. Some of us, myself included, had a MLC of our own. Some of us have relatives and/or friends that have had a MLC.
https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=5826.0 MLC Script VI (there are 5 previous threads on the same matter).
Some therapists, psychiatrist, other doctors and other health professionals believe in MLC.
"A "midlife crisis" can also be responsible. This can happen when men think they've reached life's halfway stage. Anxieties over what they've accomplished so far, either in their job or personal life, can lead to a period of depression." from https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/male-menopause/ and
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-3696284/Are-risk-midlife-crisis-Doctors-6-tell-tale-signs-past-them.html - Doctors describe the 6 tell-tale signs - and how to get past them
https://www.bbc.com/news/health-11429993 - Mid-life crisis begins in mid-30s, Relate survey says (not doctors but a survey by the BBC)
There are many more articles from or with testimony from Health Professionals. Some of us know real life health professionals that believe in MLC.
https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=3602.0 - MLC and the Medical Community
I do believe that most LBS's read up on Midlife marriage advocate and other websites prior to diagnosing their partners as having a MLC and joining our HS community. Dare say they would know their partners best.
Indeed. But several end up changing their mind and thinking their spouse has something else and remain here.
Yes some non-MLCers may slip through, but i dare say this number would be very few.
There are several with threads currently on the main board that question if it is MLC and think their spouse has NPD and may always had, etc.
And we did have at least one person whose husband has been diagnosed with a neurological degenerative disease and was here telling us all our spouse was soon going to die. 7
She insisted MLC and a neurological degenerative disorder were the same thing, never mind MLCer come out of MLC and there are people reconnecting on HS as well as reconciled.
RCR always left it clear some here do not have MLCers. However, those who think they don't have MLCer may have MLCers and some of those who think they have MLCer may not.
It is also possible that, at a point, for some, MLC becomes something else.
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I kind of agree with Anjae here...
Sometimes I can't be sure but sometimes posters come on here and it's so blatant...
Married just a few years, oh they cheated on their ex, and then with me, but then we got married anyways and my spouse was drunk half of our 3 years marriage and cheated on me,,, blah, blah, blah....
THEN.... even some old-timers on here will jump on the "yes that's MLC wagon"....
Nope, not always.
Maybe to make the poster feel better.... idk.
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Married just a few years, oh they cheated on their ex, and then with me, but then we got married anyways and my spouse was drunk half of our 3 years marriage and cheated on me,,, blah, blah, blah....
That also happens. It could be the person married someone that was already in MLC, and we often say it if we think that is the case. It could be the spouse was not in MLC but had such issues.
THEN.... even some old-timers on here will jump on the "yes that's MLC wagon"....
Nope, not always.
Maybe to make the poster feel better.... idk.
True. Yes, I think it is to make the poster feel better. Being direct/blunt/calling a spade a spade is not that appreciated around here. Or not now. I mean, we try to take the person's feelings into consideration, but sometimes the story does not add up with MLC and its script.
It would not make sense to say it is/looks like MLC when it does not.
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I kind of agree with Anjae here...
Sometimes I can't be sure but sometimes posters come on here and it's so blatant...
Married just a few years, oh they cheated on their ex, and then with me, but then we got married anyways and my spouse was drunk half of our 3 years marriage and cheated on me,,, blah, blah, blah....
THEN.... even some old-timers on here will jump on the "yes that's MLC wagon"....
Nope, not always.
Maybe to make the poster feel better.... idk.
I agree, there are some obvious cases of non-MLCers. For the people who think their spouse might be NPD or BPD or bipolar, I think we all go through that kind of questioning at some point. If they have had a diagnosis of bipolar since they were 16, that's a different story. If they've exhibited major NPD traits for the past 20 years, that's a different story. If they've had 19 OW during the marriage, the 20th OW is not an MLC affair.
As far as the topic of this thread: To me, one of the things we have to deal with as LBSs of vanishers that is particularly hard is being erased from existence and knowing absolutely nothing can make them acknowledge us.
I've been fighting cancer for 16 months now, for crying out loud, and it hasn't been enough to make him so much as "check the anchor."
Clingers and boomerangs, whether they are monster or charming monster or acting "normal," at least acknowledge the LBS's existence. They might move out and live with the OP, get all new friends and change their whole lives, but they still acknowledge the LBS. They might not always initiate contact, but they at least respond to texts or emails. They might even answer phone calls.
With a clinger or a boomerang, the LBS can send truth darts and have the hope of feeling "heard." We clanishers are silenced, muted.
Erasing someone who was once the biggest part of your life is a particularly cruel act. My IC once called it excessively emotionally abusive, to be honest. It's a dismissive act that is really unmatched in its coldness and callousness.
I believe that as H started to feel more and more "safe" in his new life, he erased me more and more. As he's achieved more and made more new friends and felt more confident that his new life isn't going to fail, he's had less and less need to think I'm out there somewhere as a safety net.
He really did get to "start over," while my new life in my beautiful apartment in a new state was cut short by an illness that has a very high possibility of shortening my lifespan. At the risk of being told to stop being self-pitying, I can't help but wonder why. Why did he get to do all the wrong things, pack up and leave and have everything fall in his favor, while I did all the right things and when I packed up and left to start anew, it all went to sh!t within 6 months?
Forget all the things he did for months pre-BD and for the first two years after. Why does he get to change his phone number and disappear completely from his legal spouse who has cancer and somehow the universe keeps showering him with lucky breaks and good fortune?
The injustice of a vanisher is a unique feature of all of this that adds an extra layer of sh!t onto an already brutal situation.
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I've been fighting cancer for 16 months now, for crying out loud, and it hasn't been enough to make him so much as "check the anchor."
I'm sorry, Nas. It is not a given a MLCer "check the anchor" if the lBS has a life threatning illness. Sadly, life threatning illness often has the opposite effect on the MLCer, they run more.
We had a LBS, Coffedrinker6, with stage 4 cancer who died. Her husband could not care less about her. He wanted to divorce, and he did. In court. She had been to hospital, she become more and more ill, but, at a point, she uded her last energy to go travel with her kids.
She was 60 when she come here, in 2013. She died in 2016. We have a memorial for LBS and MLCers who died: https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=6416.msg416169#msg416169
If you want, you can find Coffedrinker6's threads in the archives.
I believe that as H started to feel more and more "safe" in his new life, he erased me more and more. As he's achieved more and made more new friends and felt more confident that his new life isn't going to fail, he's had less and less need to think I'm out there somewhere as a safety net.
You may be right. I think it is the same with Mr J.
Why does he get to change his phone number and disappear completely from his legal spouse who has cancer and somehow the universe keeps showering him with lucky breaks and good fortune?
I don't know why he keeps having lucky breaks and good fortune. The same happens with Mr J. The changing the phone number, may, or may not, have to do with you and your cancer.
I have a single friend in MLC who has changed his phone number I don't know how many times. Then, here and there, he will go back to one of his old numbers. Then it no longer works.
The injustice of a vanisher is a unique feature of all of this that adds an extra layer of sh!t onto an already brutal situation.
Someone that we may be able to contact may not be better. In 2011 I crashed and fall on the kitchen floor here. I was seen by doctors, they said I needed a lot of rest - not really possible since I was looking after grandmother.
I was able to told Mr J. His reply? "will not help you, I will not give you a cent, I don't care if you need meds, I don't care about you, leave me alone." I remember Mamma Bear's reaction as she couldn't believe what Mr J said.
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Funny, I remember thinking of Coffeedrinker way back when I was first diagnosed, almost exactly a year after she passed. I wish there was a way to know how her husband feels about himself now.
He was earlier on I. His crisis than my H is now and he was a really nasty monster too. I never thought my H would completely vanish because he was never a nasty type. But as with everything else, I was wrong.
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I wish there was a way to know how her husband feels about himself now.
Either
(A) he feels like a complete sh!t-bag or
(B) He is a complete sh!t-bag
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hopefully both nah.... what a tool!
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Why... Is there a German equivalent to the term "tool"?
Honestly I don't think there is a term strong enough in any language to describe a "man" who would desert his sick wife.
Nas, I think about Coffeedrinker's "tool-spouse" all the time. If he isn't sick about what he did every single waking moment,....
I don't even know what to say.
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Yes, I often wondered how he felt after she passed away.
That is something that man will have to live with for the rest of his sad life.
I sure wouldn't want to be him. Especially if he is out of his crisis. ::)
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I was thinking about the Universe last night. Why is it that the MLCer moves on with so much success - at least in my case - my vanisher is soaring (in love, traveling the world, lots of money), and I am the one who did nothing wrong but struggles every day in such agonizing pain? It really doesn't seem fair. I don't wish any ill will towards him, but would love to receive some "Universe goodness" my way... I have made much progress with my mirror work, and changing my life to live without him. To the world I am in a really good place and I am proud of all that I have accomplished, yet, still have such sadness that time doesn't want to heal. Does every MLCer get through to the other side? I know it can take years, maybe decades for some, but do you think that - at some point - they understand how cruel they were, even if they chose not to reconnect? I don't know that he has that capability. I think he buries it and runs, and will do that until the day he stops breathing.
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I wonder if progress is when we see them as two separate questions?
When do we get enough good stuff to outweigh the pain we have suffered?
And will they ever acknowledge or validate the pain they caused?
The second is unknown and out of our hands I suppose, whereas the first is maybe our own quest...both moving away from the pain and sorrow as well as creating new things that feel good.
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No one is going to like my answer to your question, Shining Star. :(
My story is pretty much summed up in my post signature, but here's the basics: BD March 2015, he had been blowing all our money on get rich quick schemes for months, left in July 2015, finally moved 1100 miles to live with OW in June 2016, her friend got him an entry level government job, he's absolutely thrived and built his way up since then. Lives with OW (and her kids part time) in a cute rented house, has made lots of new friends, is seen as a respected member of his new community. No one knows they were an affair and everyone thinks we are divorced. He would communicate with me intermittently but after I got cancer in June 2017 he stopped all communication and at some point changed his phone number.
Took me 10 months to get him to even send me his financial paperwork to get legal process started in 2016. He paid me the agreed upon support for 2 months in 2016 and then just stopped paying me and walked away from all of his debt in fall 2016. I haven't gotten a dime of support since Oct 2016. He has not made a single payment on his massive debt since then, including a $30,000 loan that somehow has never been sent to collections. ??? Even with that unpaid loan and a few small collections accounts on his credit report, his credit score has actually gone up like 100 points in the past few months.
He just keeps swan diving into piles of sh!t and coming out covered in gold. No consequences for his supremely despicable behavior.
Anyway, to answer your questions of why do they get to have success and do all of them come through - I think the following:
1. They get to have success and no consequences because karma doesn't really exist and unfortunately, people who are willing to screw over innocent people to get what they want very often get what they want.
2. Not all of them come through and I truly believe that they only look at themselves if/when their new life fails...and even then, they either don't look at themselves or they just have pity parties. Nah's exH is a prime example of an MLCer who saw a colossal fall in wealth and status and quality of life, and yet still marches on, married his mistake and still unable to admit that nothing he did made him "happy."
I think they don't look at themselves unless something adversely affects them enough. The consequences have to be so great that they are forced to acknowledge that they hurt people. As long as they are getting what they want or at least not completely failing or losing too much, they just keep on going without ever thinking about what they've done.
Even if we look at the relatively small sample of reconciliation/return stories we have, in almost every case, the MLCer returns because they lost something. The OP cheated on them/dumped them, or in some cases the OP died. They had nowhere else to live. They're out of money.
After BD, I signed up for pretty much ever MLC forum I could find. On another forum very recently, not one but two LBSs confessed that the 30-year marriages they are standing for started as affairs.
I'll be honest, that shook me and really brought reality home for me. One of the LBSs said her H is in an affair now with an OW and it has caused him to think about what they did to his first wife. 30 years later. It took him 30 years to face it.
She wrote that she started hanging around him and his wife and then the affair started, and when her H presented his first wife with D papers, she sobbed and begged him not to divorce her.
This LBS had been posting for a long time before making this admission, and like most LBSs, she described her 30-year marriage as very happy until BD. So they had 30 great years in which neither this LBS nor her MLC H thought about his first wife. Her H was a cheater and she was an OW and they didn't spent 30 years consumed with guilt. They got married and built a great life together.
She wrote that she was crying while typing her confession because she had caused the first wife such great pain. But she never mentioned wanting to make amends, she only mentioned wanting God to forgive her for the hurt she caused. She never addressed the contradiction that she's standing and prays to God to restore her marriage because she loves her H and doesn't want a divorce, but his first wife loved him and didn't want a divorce either and God didn't restore her marriage.
I read her story and just felt like my eyes were opened even more to the stark reality: People don't feel guilt as long as things are going well, when they are getting what they want.
I don't think my H is lying awake every night wracked with guilt. I don't think he thinks of me every day. I think when confronted with a reminder of me, he feels a twinge of guilt that can quickly be squashed. When forced to interact with me, like when the dog died in July, he feels guilt in the moment, but then disappears again and the guilt once again sinks back down somewhere deep inside of him where it won't come out full force unless and until some day in the future when he faces a loss of something important to him. One day IF he is faced with something overwhelmingly painful, something that hurts him, only then will he truly face the full force of his guilt.
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Nas: I understood every word you wrote, and it made sense to me. Your situation is made so much worse because of the health issues. I think the shock, pain, etc is similar for most of us, which is why we are here - but you have an added component, and I am so sorry that you are going through it.
Every day I try to do at least one thing that will make my life better, and perhaps today is the day I give up wondering whether my vanisher feels guilty, or even cares..... Knowing him as I do, I know that he can turn anything around in his head to make himself look good, so it is wasted energy on my part. The only issue he may have is that he didn't get to show the world that he is a great guy - "look at me, she is still my friend." When all is said and done, that is the only item he didn't control.
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Nas - Very few people like to be confronted with the truth, and while what you wrote is your truth only, I think it will resonate with many and make them uncomfortable. And thank you for that.
Shining - this is going to sound simple and may not be helpful, but perhaps you are focused on the wrong things for what you consider a successful and happy life? Are the things you point to as proof your MLC'er is "soaring" the very same things that mean success and happiness to you? Focus on what makes you happy. If it's travel, then go travel. If it's money, then find out how to make more of it. But it's also possible that you don't actually have need of those things, nor the necessity of him feeling or expressing guilt, to find contentment in your life. Just a thought.
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I wonder if we can ever truly stop wondering about them. It might not consume our thoughts, but it'll always be a question.
There's a therapist named Vikki Stark who writes about runaway husbands. Her husband abandoned her years ago and she insists that they never think about us. I don't know if it's true for all. Nah's H said he thinks about her and their life every single day. But for my H, I think he only thinks of me sometimes because we are still married and that has to be a weight on his shoulders.
It's truly baffling because I put so much effort (and all the money I had) into moving the D forward when I moved to a new state in late 2016 and he just avoided me. Then when I was diagnosed, I sent him an email focused on the legal stuff and it would have been so easy for him to deal with it and get it done. Instead, he chose that disappear and cut off our only avenues of communication - text and email. If he feels any guilt at all, he's foolishly prolonging his own guilt by disappearing instead of just dealing with it so he can then get on with his life.
He doesn't to be the guy who vanished on his cancer-stricken legal spouse. He could be the guy who has an ex-wife with cancer, which sounds much less awful.
Yet somehow he thought disappearing was the better route to take.
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Nas,
I think when you are well, you should talk to a lawyer. You may be surprised at what they will think about him abandoning you and giving you no money (well some in the beginning) the last few years, while legally married to you.
It may even be possible to get a settlement using his new position.
I sure don't know this, and it's not anything you should concern yourself with right now, but just food for thought in the future.
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DI: I do seem to focus on what he is feeling - maybe because I still want him to come home, even though NOONE in my life - other than you all - would understand that. Although, I think he has put me in a box in his head, and it is easier now that we have NC, he must have some feelings of guilt. An example would be the last time I saw him he jumped out of a moving cab, ran to me on the street, picked me up, was crying, telling me how much he loved me. When I started crying too, and said "I don't understand," he said "I know." That was a year ago in November, before he finalized the divorce. So weird. As I move into 4 1/2 yrs since BD, and healing from the divorce, all I really want is to build a relationship and have that intimacy and a partner again. The money and travel are nice, but will not fill my heart. I have always wanted to do the building with him, but the longer this goes on, the more I become resolved to the fact that it may not happen. Every day when I do my meditation, I always make reference to letting him go without punishment. That really is the key to moving forward to me. Just accepting that this has happened, it isn't what I would have chosen, but it is time to move ahead without him. This is the only way I will really be fulfilled. If, in the future, he contacts me and has an interest in re-building, it would depend on where I was in my life.
Nas: I also read the Vikki Stark book, and I am not sure I agree with her. I think there are some MLCers that do think about us, and perhaps that is why they go so dark - because of the guilt and shame. It probably helps to not have a daily reminder of the destruction. I hope your H finds some compassion and does the right thing by you. Sending you a hug for the day.
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I feel your pain, Nas. I, like you, had an attorney, did everything legally the right way and threw a ton of money behind it. And the settlement is just not going to happen and my attorney doesn't understand why I can't just be satisfied with the bifurcated decree (where xH got his divorce, but no assets were split). The court system was the one thing I thought I had on my side, and even it ghosted me. So I got the debt, the foreclosure, the bankruptcy, the sick pets, the fallout. He got his freedom.
The one thing I've learned that has served me is to try to stop getting inside anyone else's head. We can pontificate all day about whether or not someone is happy, guilty, angry, in love, humiliated, suffering from debilitating abuse, or possessed by a demon. A lot of standing literature focuses on that very thing. But there is absolutely no way of knowing, so what's the point? We weren't like this in our marriages (I know I wasn't). Every second we spend trying to get inside someone else's mind is a second we've lost our own thoughts, our own identity, and our own purpose. We can't figure out how to get over this if we're spending all of our time inside of a sick person who we may or may not ever see again. We become them.
You don't actually need to understand what is in their heads to have closure, to move on, to accept this happened, or to stand.
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As a fellow clanisher, I agree with so many points made on this thread it’s hard not to waffle between wondering about the “why” of it all, hoping against hope that there is something “real” beyond my own self-closure, and just a big fat PPPPPFFFFFTTTT regarding it all!
Oct 3 was my 9 year noniversary, so I purchased an $80 bottle of wine, tipped the bar tender $20, and enjoyed my evening at home in a townhome with a beautiful skyline view of the city - and which I’m currently renovating so I can list it on AirBnB
Today I purged a few more things I’ve been holding on to regarding my hwow. I’m slowly, slowly starting to re-recognize my self worth even while there still exists out there in the world a shadow of a man who bailed on me. (mini ppppffftt) I feel as if I’m getting to understand the gift of time.
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Great way to spend your noniversary, Calling. :)
Funny, my H and I could not remember when we met so we chose a day in January and called it our noniversary. Now every time I hear that Kelsea Ballerini song "I hate love songs" with the line, "We were drunk when we met so we don't know our anniversary" I kind of cringe and kind of laugh. (Honestly, I could have written every word of that song, it sounds just like me, lol.)
The self-worth issue is very difficult. Especially for those of us who did not have the most solid self-esteem to begin with.
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I think the core issue for me with a vanisher...and therefore very little information or any conversation really...is not about their truth. It's about doubting mine. When someone lies, and then ghosts you pretty much, perhaps the desire for them to show up and speak (even when we know that's unlikely to happen and if it did it would probably just be more lies and gaslighting half-lies) is because we just want to know what the truth of our own lives was. Then with time, we see that we can't get the truth there....so we hunt internally for it. And some find an ok spot they can live with there. But some can't...or it takes longer...or they find a way to write it off and not care maybe.
But as my perspective has evolved, I think it has become less about his lies and much more about doubting my own ability to lie to myself. So, I am unsure of how I can trust my own judgement. Was my h what and who I thought he was for many years and then stewed into his own crisis so the bit where my judgement was off was for a year or two? Or was my h never who I thought he was and I failed to see it because of the lies I wanted to tell myself for 20 years? And if even now I can't see many forewarning flags looking back even though I also have to accept the reality of how my h behaved towards me, is that because they weren't there to see or because I denied them to feed my own not true story of my own life and the person I am? And would I really rather know the truth or not? And how do I figure it out when the other person who knows some of that decided to just refuse to talk to me about any part of those 20 years? Because the reality is that the person I thought I knew would not have done much of what he has done. And that's just the things I know about. And normal healthy rational decent humans normally don't act this way even when they want to end their marriage. But he did and it is real and there are facts albeit with unknown reasons.
I know we say here...well, MLC blah, blah. And you know what your truth and intentions were regardless of what was going on with the other person so you can keep your POV. And that is partly so...but not quite all of it is it? And I'm sure that for folks whose MLC spouses show up to spew and blame, it's an equally confusing puzzle. But the itch for us clanishers of the vanishers, which we sometimes conflate with trying to work out what our spouses think/feel from afar, is maybe more about how we make something feel really authentic in ourselves that was shared with a now silent invisible participant. And why, even now after 3 years, I sometimes have moments - which I never act on because common sense tells me it's futile - when I simply want to appeal to my xh human to human to tell me his version of the truth, no matter how ugly, so I can reclaim some clarity about my own judgement again or challenge the lies I told myself.
I have no answers at all, but I wonder if the itch - which is about us not them - is the reason why our vanishers sometimes continue to live in our heads long past their sell-by date.
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I was questioning a lot if I was just blind to a lot of things. But some recent memories that have popped into my head for no reason at all have me now realizing that I was not blind or in denial. He's a different person. At least with me, he's a completely different person.
So now, rather than wondering if he's always been a narcissist or lacked empathy, I can so clearly see he's changed and wonder if he's only changed with me because of the way his feelings for me changed, or if he's changed who he is as a person. Does OW get to see the man I saw for 16 years before BD? Because if so, she's never letting him go.
Do the new friends and colleagues see the man I always knew before BD? If so, no wonder his new life is successful.
When he changes his phone number but emails me and claims that the reason for his "lack of communication" for an entire year is because his phone went through the washing machine, am I the only one who hears that kind of absurd reasoning and confused logic? Because wouldn't other people think it was strange? Is he clear minded and logical with others and only absurd with me?
I guess it's more a question of how the hell can others not see something is off, or am I the only one who witnesses the craziness?
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People who knew him will see it, but not new people. They didn't meet the man you married....and you're right he is a stranger now. You real H would never treat you bad.
I'm sure he is different with her too. She'll never have the real man he was. You had him.
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I'm more wondering about the ridiculous things he says that make no sense. Surely if he is that way, people would think it was odd, whether they knew him forever or just met him.
"I haven't been able to talk to my lawyer on the phone because we've had severe thunderstorms every night." ??? ??? ???
"I apologize for not contacting you for an entire year, but my laptop died and my phone went through the wash within a week of each other."
So your phone went through the washing machine so you had to get a new phone number? ??? ??? ???
He makes up excuses that a child might come up with. Is that just with me or is that how his brain works now? And I get it, why is it important? It's not and it's not something I particularly dwell on, but it's just so strange and I am so curious if he comes up with such idiotic reasons when talking to others. Because how could they not find it weird? And if it's only with me, what the hell is it that causes him to regress to about age 10 only with me?
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He just keeps swan diving into piles of sh!t and coming out covered in gold. No consequences for his supremely despicable behavior.
Same with Mr J.
Nah's exH is a prime example of an MLCer who saw a colossal fall in wealth and status and quality of life, and yet still marches on, married his mistake and still unable to admit that nothing he did made him "happy."
Same with Mitzpah's husband, except he didn't marry OW. At a poont his finances and life style too a gigantic blow, but he remains in crisis.
I think they don't look at themselves unless something adversely affects them enough. The consequences have to be so great that they are forced to acknowledge that they hurt people.
That or they have to come to a point where physically/mentally/emotionally it is no longer possible to carry on with the MLC life.
The OP cheated on them/dumped them, or in some cases the OP died. They had nowhere else to live. They're out of money.
It is not always so. Often the alienator is still in the picture. And some have where to live and money. For others it is like you said. When Mr J and OW1 broke, he wanted me to be his "girfriend" while he carried on the MLC life. I told him no. He will not run out of money and he always have a place to life. If OW2 cheated on dumped him, I wouldn't be felling very sorry.
People don't feel guilt as long as things are going well, when they are getting what they want.
This is true. Or mostly true. However, for some reason, at a point MLCers start to look like hell. I don't see that happening in non-MLC marriages/relationhsips that started with cheating.
Her husband abandoned her years ago and she insists that they never think about us.
It may be true for a non-MLC runaway husband, but it is not true for a MLCer. I know Mr J thinks of me, and in the past, he thought a lot. We have the testimonies of those who had a MLC or of those whose spouse returned. They all say they thought about their spouse. Read Sewing22 threads. She had a MLC and she talks a lot about how she always thought about her husband.
On another forum very recently, not one but two LBSs confessed that the 30-year marriages they are standing for started as affairs.
We had (not sure if any is still around) HS members whose marriage to the MCLer stated as an affair, including LettingGo that was once a mod.
Be being me, I would say bluntly to her that the things she called her husband's OW didn't make sense since she herself started her marriage as OW and that there was no difference between them, other than her marriage had lasted a long time. Her MLCer had a wife when she got invoved with her.
It made zero sense to me that someone who started the marriage as OW is complaining their spouse has OW. I understand that all part involved were hurt, you can't really complain, can you?
The court system was the one thing I thought I had on my side, and even it ghosted me.
Same with me. The court system will not always play in our favour. It may play against us.
I have no answers at all, but I wonder if the itch - which is about us not them - is the reason why our vanishers sometimes continue to live in our heads long past their sell-by date.
I don't know. At first Mr J was the ultimate clinger, and his vanisher phase brought court cases, so it was hard not to know he existed and I also had to keep dealing with stuff created by him. Also, since we more or less move in the same world and our country is tiny and we have a relevant cultural past together - some of the things we created are currently on display on a big exhition, he will somehow always be part of my life. Same for me in relation to his.
Do the new friends and colleagues see the man I always knew before BD? If so, no wonder his new life is successful.
Mostly, yes. At least for a while. MLCers tend to show their most amazing side to new friends. Also to OW/OM. However, someone who has knew them in the past may found something strange with them. It may be something so small as the music they play as a DJ. When I say Mr J by chance in January, I was with someone that has known us since our lates teens who has not seen us in a long time. He found nothing strange in me, but he couldn't believe the type of music Mr J was spinning. He was like "This is what he plays/listens to now? What happened? How did he and his musical tastes changed this much?
I wrote mostly, because the MLCer tends to lead a life that is not exactly like the previous one. OW1 and OW2 had/have to put up with totally drunk Mr J, to the point of oblivion or falling in the middle of the floor, with his hangovers, and with everything else that comes with his MLC lifestyle. OW2 has also been putting up with DJ life and no Saturday and often Friday nights for them because he is DJing. OW1 left him when she realized he was not going to stop DJing and the the DJing was more important than her. Also that he had no interesst in anything she liked, like holidays in tropical places, etc.
Lets pretend Mr J hadn't left and that there has not been OW. If he keept the djing life for as long as she has been keeping it, I would had divorced him. Or. at least, separate from him.
DJing wolrd is not that far from music/arts & culture world, I had not probkem with him djing for a while, I even kind of coied him when my own crisis was in its high - minus the djing, I could had done ti, but didn't wanted it turned into a competions and a mates things. However, by 2008 I start to tell people that my out and about days would come to an end. They did, not at once, but many years ago.
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He just keeps swan diving into piles of sh!t and coming out covered in gold. No consequences for his supremely despicable behavior.
Are you sure??
This, this, a thousand times this....
perhaps you are focused on the wrong things for what you consider a successful and happy life? Are the things you point to as proof your MLC'er is "soaring" the very same things that mean success and happiness to you? Focus on what makes you happy. If it's travel, then go travel. If it's money, then find out how to make more of it. But it's also possible that you don't actually have need of those things, nor the necessity of him feeling or expressing guilt, to find contentment in your life. Just a thought.
My husband made about 400K a year, two healthy kids, admired and loved as a father, husband, coach, boss, friend, etc...
We had all the luxuries you could ask for, I adored him, desired him, catered to his every need without complaining, I loved to do it. People envied us, people told me all the time they envied us.
He told me he wanted to drive into a tree, he ran away like he was on fire.
His direct boss was paid 12 million for a scrap yard. Later he was fired from the industry (along with The Leaver) from fixing the books, 12 million was not enough for his "happiness", maybe if he made more like the grandson of the company founder, his grandmother left him 36 million dollars (he also has other assets in the millions). This guy used to come over our house all the time, you know why?
He envied The Leaver. This was years before we had money. This guy who had millions used to hang at our house and watch tv while I made dinner and helped my daughter make a "special cake for the boss" every week.
None of these guys were happy. The money was nothing but a contest about who made more, and there was ALWAYS somebody that made more. We were better off when we were scrapping by making the weekly special cake for the boss.
What does it matter how much the man we used to know has in the bank? What his girlfriend looks like, says, does, thinks, any of it? What are we doing TODAY to make OURSELVES happy?
Yes I know, I often talk about how The Leaver lost his big job, how I make more money than him now. It still isn't the biggest factor of karma.... not really. The biggest factor is living big, it doesn't have to be about money, it can be about painting, writing, body building, being kind, learning a new language, it can be whatever you want it to be.
If you really truly want to compare yourselves with being better than 'them", then don't firetruck a married person. You won every single time.
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Nas - STBXW does the same thing. The excuses are so patently ridiculous - "I'd pay you back the money I owe you from 6 months ago but I'm waiting for the bills to catch up from when you were living in the house. Some of the bills lag." 6 months??? "I thank you for your patience for me not scheduling our next mediation but I'm busy at work." 5 months??? "I didn't work on the paperwork for the divorce until I had to because there was so much of it." She showed up with one item out of 7 completed, and I'd provided her pretty much everything she needed for the 6 items she didn't complete. This is a woman who was OCD and extremely organized pre MLC. Everything was calendared and listed to death prior to BD. It falls into the "Believe nothing they say" category. They are always lying and their excuses are easily seen through.
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Nas, I got those pathetic type of excuses as well. I know Mr J uses some of them on other people. Or tell people one thing, than does not follow through. I do not know if he had been doing it to others all the time, but for the last 18 he has. The exhibition curators got in touch in him. He said he never saw their messages, yet they know he read them. Then it was "the messages end up at the bottom". He has also said to a musician from a band we once releases that he was interested in re-releasing their album (never mind I own the legal rights), then never said one more word about the matter.
I also know Mr J tends to leave his lawyers (he has had at least 3) totally confused, giving them contradictory instructions.
Are you sure??
In my case, I would say that making tons of money, live in a nice luxury flat, go on holidays in the country and abroad, having tons of adoring fans who thing you are amazing and have a court saying that you are not pay alomony to your wife because you need to lead a dignified life is having no consequences at all.
It could be argued the drinking, lack of sleep, and looking dreadful are consequences. But are the firts two consequences or reasons for the crisis to continue?
What does it matter how much the man we used to know has in the bank?
It does when we have none and on top ot if are told by a court the poor guy cannot pay. Especially when some of that money is ours, like in my case. The money would made a huge practical difference in my life. It also would on Nas one.
As for OW. Don't care about her. But I do care that she benefits from money that is legally mine. As did OW1. I alsocare that my own money was used for Mr J's court cases. Remember one days, out of the blue, he cleaned the bank accounts. That was back in 2006 when I knew nothing about MLC. And it was after Mr J being not only nice but saying the money was as mine as it was is - have that on an e-mail, so he cannot claim he didn't said it. Even if he hand't sine they were joint accounts and the moeny was made during marriage and the years beofre marriage we worked together, 50% of it it is mine.
Disillusioned, the type of things crisis Mr J values are not the type of things I value or want in my life. That, however, does not change the money issue and the impact its lack as in my life.
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He just keeps swan diving into piles of sh!t and coming out covered in gold. No consequences for his supremely despicable behavior.
Are you sure??
As sure as I can be without actually having contact with him. I know if I blatantly just walked away from a huge amount of debt, I'd have creditors hauling me into court and demanding payments from me. It's been 2 years since H made a payment and his credit score went up and the huge loan still hasn't even been sent to collections. How is that even possible?
He's got a wife he doesn't care about who never bothers him or interferes with his need to pretend I don't exist. He's got a new group of friends to aid his golf obsession and never lost any of his old friends because no one knows he had an affair or anything he's done to me, and most would turn a blind eye anyway since it doesn't affect them. He really likes his new job and has moved up the ladder extremely quickly. And after 4 years total and 2 years living together, OW still appears to fawn all over him like she's still an underclassman with a crush on the popular jock.
No consequences. They might come some day, but not anytime soon.
Nas - STBXW does the same thing. The excuses are so patently ridiculous - "I'd pay you back the money I owe you from 6 months ago but I'm waiting for the bills to catch up from when you were living in the house. Some of the bills lag." 6 months??? "I thank you for your patience for me not scheduling our next mediation but I'm busy at work." 5 months??? "I didn't work on the paperwork for the divorce until I had to because there was so much of it." She showed up with one item out of 7 completed, and I'd provided her pretty much everything she needed for the 6 items she didn't complete. This is a woman who was OCD and extremely organized pre MLC. Everything was calendared and listed to death prior to BD. It falls into the "Believe nothing they say" category. They are always lying and their excuses are easily seen through.
It must be script because my H did the same thing early on with the paperwork, said the paperwork was too overwhelming (it was a one and a half page form) and took 10 months to get it to me, and when I got it, it was handwritten in messy handwriting and parts of it were wrong. And then after that he claimed for a full year he was just too busy to file or talk to his lawyer or respond to me when I had questions from my lawyer. And then he just completely disappeared.
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Following along and nodding my head to much that has been posted by everyone. My H is not a complete vanisher since we have kids. My sense is that he started vanishing (after having been a boomerang for a couple of years) because he is scared of me. He admitted this to his lawyer. Now scared can mean several things, I think he's scared of how I make him feel about himself. I make him feel guilty.
I agree that one of the hardest parts of having a vanisher is feeling completely annihilated. Feeling like I meant absolutely nothing to my H so that he can just put me behind him like some girlfriend he had as a teenager. That hurts, makes me feel like I mattered so little, like my presence in his life was of minimal importance. Like I would not have mattered to anyone.
And then like Treasur said, I keep questioning my own view of my marriage. Is it true, as he said, that he never loved me and should never have married me? Was I fooled the whole time? Did I think the man I married me loved me, when in reality he didn't? How come I didn't see it?
Did I marry a fraud? Did I marry a lier? Was he always a fake? Why didn't I see it? If instead he did love me until he stopped loving me, why can't he just tell me? I would rather have that, it would leave me feeling my marriage had value, that 30 years of my life were not a waste.
For me this is the hardest part of having a vanisher.
As for: do their new friends get the fake version of our Hs/W? I think mainly yes. I think our Hs/W are careful to show a better version of themselves, but even when they lose control and tell a pathetic lie, the new friends probably laugh it off.....at first.
I think it will take years before the new friends start connecting the dots and realize that our MLCers are a little off. Old friends know there's something wrong. My old friends have said so. So you see, we're not crazy, our MLCers are weird now, have changed since their crisis.
And regarding what Nas said about her H and many other humans who treat others badly and get away with it, I think there's some truth to it. They get material success, but with personal relationships they're total failures.
I have to prevent myself from focusing on what I've lost material wise because it stings like for all of us. I tell myself now that I am starting from scratch, as if I were in my 20s when I truly would have had to build a life. It sucks that I just turned 54, yet I can still make something of my life, and in reality I need less now.
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I cud of written that myself milly. Although I have young teenagers that he has also put behind him as if they don’t exist either. H changed his phone no and even d13 and s15 are not allowed it.
My h as as far as I know is not succeeding in anything. I believe ow is trying to comfort him with material objects. I am 51 and it’s hard to have to start over and although I’m not interested in dating I’m hoping that love will again enter my life and treat me and my children how we deserve to be treated. I believe at some point it will happen without me looking for it. I feel that’s the difference. They are looking for a plaster and believe they have found love but a plaster is a plaster where as when we find new love it will be real xx
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Milly,
I thought they were all my thoughts !! Feeling exactly like you. My husband said he made a mistake marrying me !!! 29 years of marriage ...33 years together at BD.
New Friends....my H lives in another country, in our holiday home in a warm country. Even though we both had the same friends where the holiday home is he has stopped seeing them for some years now.
His new friends that he has known about four years now ( I actually met some of them last year....really nice retired people) have informed me in the last two weeks that H does not bother with them now. I believe it's because he has moved on to ow2.
New Friends had informed me he only speaks well of me and tells them he is responsible for our situation. He will not want the new friends to know about ow2 2 as he is trying to keep the good guy image.
H also told me after a touch and go in 2017 (home for 4 months) that he felt no spark for me. In June this year we spoke on the fone. He told me he should be here with me and children....I validated this..but he is still with ow 2 . This relationship is a year old now And he is still in replay.
My H is retired, so the only thing he is succeeding in is a good body physique which he has been tirelessly working out in gym for the past four years to look and feel younger.
Ripped
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Milly,
I was going to pull out a quote but I agree with everything you wrote.
Yes, that's what I was trying to say, it might seem that they keep "swan diving in sh!t and keep coming out covered in gold" but if it looks like gold on the outside, most likely the sh!t is inside them waiting to ooze out.
I say this all the time, if they were so sure and confident of their choices, why can't they contact us? Because they care so little? That doesn't make sense. If they cared to little, they wouldn't be so scared of us. Scared does not equal "meh".
As for the friends? The Leaver's band hopping practices has left me with 100% proof that he is out of his mind. Band#1 old friends, told me point blank that he is "not the same dude, sad... he's always mad at me and I don't know why,... etc" I have several messages like this saved from 30+ year friends. Band#2, I didn't know at all but they also couldn't stand him, now Band#3 is desperately trying to contact me with more of the same gossip but I no longer want to play.
Money? Believe me, I know it sucks. I too was left holding the bag. I was cheated out of 100K+ but if I think about how much I could of had, it drives me mad. So I don't.
It does when we have none and on top ot if are told by a court the poor guy cannot pay. Especially when some of that money is ours, like in my case. The money would made a huge practical difference in my life. It also would on Nas one.
As for OW. Don't care about her. But I do care that she benefits from money that is legally mine.
Again, believe me, I get it. The Leaver bought a house for THEM with OUR retirement that I sacrificed for, not him. Our entire marriage, whenever we got a bonus, he would take half to buy a toy and I would take half for OUR retirement. That's how we compromised b/c he didn't believe in saving and I did. The fire trucking girl wasn't even born yet when we made this agreement. For the first half of our 30 years together, my mother would slip money in my pocket b/c we didn't have food, after kids she would babysit for free, buy us food/diapers/clothes for the kids, my parents gave us our first house at cost. Now that my mother needs help, where is The Leaver? Married to a young girl in a big house while I send my mother money out of my paycheck.
I can't think of the name of the reconciled guy on here that says, "whatever you focus on gets bigger", that resonated with me. I don't want to wallow in what I don't have, what I could of had, what The Leaver has that should have been mine. So I focus on what fell my way. That's probably why you guys think EVERYTHING fell my way.
It didn't but I prefer to focus on the positive,... well most of the time.
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so the only thing he is succeeding in is a good body physique which he has been tirelessly working out in gym for the past four years to look and feel younger.
Ripped it is crazy how obsessed the MLCer has with the gym. Yes my Ex-h may have a good physique but his face tells the real story. Over the last almost 4 years he has aged significantly....ironically all of our family and friends say exactly the same. You cannot turn back the aging clock irrespective how much you try.
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How is it you all said exactly how I feel. I could have written all your stories, with a few changes. It is so distubing and amazing at the same time!
I don't think any of them are truly happy. I think they can place thing on the shelf. My X once told me, after a family party. That he seemed to be having fun at, that he hated them cuz he is on stage. They are good actors. My S told me he acts happy but if you look into his eyes you just see pain. Pain he will never deal with. Unfortunatey I agree.
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My X once told me, after a family party. That he seemed to be having fun at, that he hated them cuz he is on stage.
That's exactly what my husband said was the reason for him getting back into music. He said he can pretend he's someone else when he's on stage. Now that he's gone, he is involved in music more than ever.
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Bren
Your mlcer is a lot younger than mine. Mine is 66 !!!! 62 at bombdrop. He is also on steroids but won't admit it to anybody but me. My adult children know this. My eldest Son (28) told h to stop taking them as it will affect him mentally and physically. But my h knows better....he's invincible lol. My h and I were told many times we look younger than our age. His age never bothered me, I am 8 years younger than him.But he has become obsessed with it.
The first ow was older than me, the second is 6 years younger. She is the one that is stroking his ego and making him feel sooo good about himself. My h also I believe sees his ow as "damsel that need rescuing and he is the knight in shining armour"
I often wonder did he think i needed rescuing when we met.... I know I didn't as I have always been independent. My h also said he was scared of me once after bd.... I think because they know /knew that we would not tolerate such bad behaviour.. I didn't allow myself to walk on eggshells after year one.
The addiction part of mlc is gobsmacking...... His addiction is gym, steroids, phone texting and fb. When do these people grow up !!!
Ripped
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I say this all the time, if they were so sure and confident of their choices, why can't they contact us? Because they care so little? That doesn't make sense. If they cared to little, they wouldn't be so scared of us. Scared does not equal "meh".
But they contact, don't they? Even if only here and there. And some still in touch with the kids.
Contact and scared is different. At a point Mr J become terrified of me. No idea why. We don't have much if any contact. Like in January, when I saw in by chance and went to say hi. He freaked and gave a step back. But when he was leaving he put his hand on my shoulder and said "so goodnight". He behaved odd again in August when I called him because of the exhibition - several relevant materials are with him. It was a professional call - this, that and those is required for exhibition X curated by A, B, C that will be held at P, no personal issue was mentioned. Yet, monster come out.
When Mr J was a clinger he was not scared of me one bit. Or he didn't seemed to be. He contactd so much it was crazy.
I am not wallowing, I am just saying that money makes a difference. It is a fact and it is valid for everyone. However, money, or its lack do not equal happy or unhappy. Money means comfort, not happiness. I am far happier than Mr Nightclub with his fancy life.
Walking, the Sun, art galleries are free. Books can be picked for free at the library. There are also many free concerts here and other that are paid I can get into for free. I also don't have to spend 4 to 6 or more hours during the night in a closed room - read nightclub -, full of noise, heat and, often, cigarette smoke including when I have to go to my day job the next day. Mr J does because he wants to keep at it.
At times, it seems that when a LBS points for something that is not rosy, people equal with wallowing rather than fact.
As for friends, Mr J has had several DJ partners, for some reason, some didn't last long and one who used to be very close to him cut ties with him years ago. I don't have a clue why.
The reason Mr J remains in his MCL life is that, of he stops, he starts to think about everything he has done and cannot deal with it. He told me that a couple of times.
I never felt erased nor thought the marriage/relationship was fake. When the MLCers was a super clinger early on it is hard to feel erased. As for the marriage/relationship, I know how it was. No reason to doubt it.
When we post here it may give the wrong impression that we are focussed on the MLCer or things that come with the crisis. That is true for a while, then we are all busy with tons of things. What I am focussed on at the moment?
Both big and small things. My ideas for cultural things and meeting the people that will be necessary to help - they are very big and impossible to do alone; recovering from physical injuries from when I looked after grandmother; working on my organic compost (I am trying a few differents methods); drying seeds (melon, watermelon, punpkin, etc) to be eaten with cereals or in smoothies; my watercolours/paintings; photography; doing small improvements around the house; keep growing my professional contacts; meet new people; keep working on the former joint project.
I am doing it all at my pace, and the pace is not even. Peri-menopause keeps playing a number on me and I go with the flow. No point forcing or rushing. It only tires and sets me back.
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The addiction part of mlc is gobsmacking...... His addiction is gym, steroids, phone texting and fb. When do these people grow up !!!
Ripped
Ripped I don't think they can grow up whilst in Mlc. They are focused on trying to stay young and extremely egotistical. My Ex is absolutely obsessed with gym, riding 100's of klms each day on his bike and there are rumours about steroid use also. Yes they are totally invincible in their own eyes...lol. Christmas Day 2 years ago he spent 3 hours at the gym...does that sound normal for someone in a new relationship and new family for Christmas Day? That sounds like a man punishing himself for whatever reason.
Ripped we all go back in time and analyse our relationships - forsensically scrutinise photos and memories looking for answers. As you say we question were we the "damsel in distress" needing rescuing or were we just totally blind to what was going on. I know the independent woman I once was there would be no reason why I would need saving. The woman I am now after the battering I have endured...yes...I am a damsel in distress....but he is long gone. We can't rewrite history....no one can. It was what we thought it was! Don't doubt yourself of the millions of memories. Most LBS observed a personality change in our Mlcers before BD, IMO this was the onset of MLC.
My ExH always had an addictive personality...he would swap and change sporting interests to fit in with new found friends, change his choice of alcoholic beverages to the "in" style drink, change dressing style so he would be stylish and modern, his brain was always busy - swapping and changing interests, starting many projects but failing to complete many. I often question if the kids and I were just another fad that has reached its use by date.
I keep saying that the men/women we know so well, the person we have known for many years is still in that body/brain somewhere...lost in the fog of MLC...all we can do is live our lives as best as we can and trust our future path to fate. What is meant to be will be. Some old timers will no doubt disagree and have a theory to argue otherwise. Which is interesting to read, but it is just an opinion based on their own experience. Everyone's situation is different. There is a lot of bitterness and anger with some LBS's (in combination with menopause personality symptoms) which is perfectly OK...but it is no good mentally and psychically for us to hold so much anger and bitterness. We need to focus on growing stronger and our own self care.
Ripped sit back and keep watching this story unwrap from afar. A women aged 52 will soon tire of a man aged 66....and your H will not be able to continue to put the effort and punishment on his body to keep up with a 52 year old. Hold your head high and watch his rock bottom come.
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Bren,
My H was sooooooo reliable and predictable...always. We both attended the gym over the years me not as much as him but we enjoyed it. He was never into styles, fashion etc., We travelled around Europe on his Yamaha 1100 when we first met, he loved his bike but sold it so that we could put it towards a deposit on our house 30 + years ago.
He was a perfectionist in everything he did, he was helpful and pulled his weight as did I. We had worked together over 30 years, first in the same company and then we set up our own business. He changed totally when mlc hit and now it's his stubbornness and obsessive behaviour with the gym that continues. 3 hours a day, six days a week. Ow2...I've seen a photo.....She is no gym bunny and the opposite of me in every way. The only thing I noticed ow 1 and ow2 have is brown eyes like myself.
I have left him to keep digging downwards into that huge hole he now finds himself in. :D ;D
RIPPED.
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Clanishers of the Vanishers...,
The Leaver just called.
I didn’t answer.
It’s been at least a year, maybe two since I heard his voice.
This can’t be good.
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Wow....no message?
No doubt the mind ponders....in overdrive somewhat? A misdialled number???? Interesting...
Hope everything is ok with your daughter?
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OMG nah, you must be feeling god knows what emotions.
S15 has just text the vanisher and called him a d!ck! Vanisher has just turned up and took s15 on a drive xx
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Interesting. My curiosity is piqued.
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Nah.. Very interesting. I would be so curious I would have had to answer.
Nas. You rknow how you feel like your Mlcer is living a great life... I do too. I'm the casualty. And I fell as tho no one cares.
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Hope everything is ok with your daughter?
Not really worried about that... if it was a big deal, he would have contacted my mother, son, brothers, sisters, etc by now.
Sorry I kept you guys hanging, I had a minor emergency at work.
Butt-dial? I doubt it.
99.9% sure, it's most likely about the book. He must have heard by now, I mean, he heard about my wedding in record speed. Now, I haven't heard a peep from him since he married (sept 2017), I sent him one Father's Day message, other than that, nothing. We both had birthdays, nothing. College bills from son sent to his house that he can't afford, nothing. Me getting married, nothing.
Yeah... It's gotta be about the book. Very curious why no message though, something like, "You're a big meanie, now everybody knows I'm a big fat liar." Well, everybody already knew, but he does like to blame his own guilt for his own actions on me, so this is the perfect opportunity.
So, if nothing else I'm honest. When I saw his name on the phone, I started to shake. Thought that was in my past but I guess since I haven't heard from him in awhile, my nerves unexpectedly bubbled up. The difference this time from the past is I really have zero desire to have contact with him. In the past I would play the "rule of 3" game, more to make him wonder than something for me, but this time, I really truly wish he would just go away.
No such luck. Vanishers always come back when you least expect it. Like a oozing rash on your wedding night. :P
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Vanishers always come back when you least expect it. Like a oozing rash on your wedding night. :P
Haha....interesting..do you thinkl he might've read it? Maybe he wants to give you his personal review 😳
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Interesting Nah! I'm curious like the others. I wonder why he would be calling you about your book, as in not to congratulate you or anything, just like he was silent when you married. But I'm wondering if something in your book triggered him. Clearly something pushed him to make the call when nothing had for a year. So he's still watching you.
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My best guess?
I never mentioned to him or anybody else that he was on a sugar daddy website and transferring our money, while we were married, to young girls.
Hey if he’s embarrassed or doesn’t like the story, maybe he should have behaved better.
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Oh my gosh Nah, that's in the book??? LOL
Yep, it probably has something to do with the book. ;D
Oh well, you didn't lie. 0 : )
I can't wait to read it all.
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If the girl has read the book (and my bet is she would out of morbid curiosity), then the leaver is in big trouble. He. Will. Never. Hear. The. End. Of. It.
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Very well put, Nas.
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If the girl has read the book (and my bet is she would out of morbid curiosity), then the leaver is in big trouble. He. Will. Never. Hear. The. End. Of. It.
and I guess you are probably right.
Believe it or not, when I first started writing the book, it was mostly about him, but I purposely shifted away from him and onto me, but let's face it, of course some of his antics are going to be in there b/c what he did affected me.
I also, purposely, kept her very low on importance, as that's how I feel about her, but again, sometimes they were there, like my father in laws funeral, etc
Now if I was her, Hell yeah I would want to read it, and I'm sure there are many surprises for her.
Most importantly, all the conversations we had over the years, the meetings, the fact that it was him that dragged along the divorce, etc. I doubt very much he told her any of those things. Maybe I lied? Well, ask "Peggy", she knows the truth, right down to The Leaver not showing up at court, Peggy was there. The sugar daddy website is a google away (and I have the screen shot, plus credit card receipts)
I wrote this book for me, and to give others like me hope, but if they have a problem with anything that is in the book, again, maybe they should have behaved better.
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That’s what I always say, if you wanted a better role in my autobiography, you should’ve played a better role in my life.
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Just sitting here today on this drab drab weather weekend and thinking about the old days. Huddled up in the family room with hustle and bustle with the kids, pets and xh wondering what comforting food to have for dinner. Here I am all alone in a dark house without any of that reheating lasagna. Whatever, this is the new normal. But it got me wondering about how these ows and oms live with themselves living our lives and how do they sleep at night. I don't think that question will ever be answered.
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My father had an affair, actually he had several and left with the last one. One of his conquests was my mums best friend. Somehow my mum has remained friends with her and once asked her if she ever thought about my mum while she was sleeping with my father! My mum said that her friend looked shocked and said no! I didn’t think about you or your feelings at all. I just thought about myself and what I wanted. Which she didn’t actaully get! Xx
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I don't think the other people think about us, but I'm sure our husbands do.
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I think it's probably very rare for an OW to think about the wife, unless it's to demonize or blame her. I recently was profoundly affected by a post on another forum where an LBS admitted that she and her MLC H had gotten together as a result of an affair. Her H had left his first wife for her 30 years ago. She posted that she felt that her H, due to his MLC, was just now facing what he'd done to his first wife. She posted in detail about how her H told her that when he presented his first wife with D papers, she sobbed and begged him not to do it.
She spoke about how she felt maybe she was being "punished" now for the fact that it was an affair that brought her and her H together. But I didn't sense that she had any real empathy for the first wife. Not once did she write anything about true remorse or wanting to make amends. She wrote that her H needed to forgive himself, but she never said he needed to make amends to first wife. And she's been posting for years as an LBS and never once mentioned this until now. For 30 years she was married to her H and presumably never once thought about his first wife. And she's only thinking of the first wife now because now her H has left her for OW.
It only solidified my belief that people don't feel remorse for what they've done as long as things are going well for them.
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It only solidified my belief that people don't feel remorse for what they've done as long as things are going well for them.
PREACH! It's easy even for healthy people to focus on the present successes and happiness when there isn't a block to it. How many more of us would move on faster if there weren't strung out divorces and settlements looming that kept these people in our lives? Work into that an unhealthy person who is actively ditching their prior life. After the first year or two where there was some limbo and something to be gained from monstering at me, I think my xH absolutely put me and anything about our life out of mind. He was surrounded by other drama and that is what he likes. I saw him do it with other friends and situations during the course of our relationship, and I feel confident that it went that way with me as well. This is a man who never repaid a debt. He had no intention of making *this* the time that changed, and the sooner he could forget it, the better.
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I dont think these ow' s think about anyone else but them selves. They go after what they want and they destroy everything in their paths to get it. They dont care how they get it and dont stop until they do.
The ow in my story has been saying things about my children and now my mother. I know this because my sister is friends with one of tbe ows friends and the ow dont know that my sister knows this woman. She said , quite recently, that it is a good thing that the coward left me when he did because if i end up looking anything like my mother as i get older he wouldnt want anything to do with that. My mother is 67 and had a little bout with cancer this year.
She said that my s23 uses the coward. S23 has his own place with his future wife and their 1 year old son. He takes very good care of them both. Hecis the boss of his own crew at the framing company he works for and is one of the youngest bosses they have ever had.
She said that s21 only talks to the coward when he wants something. When is it wrong to ask your parent for advice or help with something. He has stopped asking because he knows he wont get it.
She has said thst d13, who will become d14 on Monday, has no manners and with just a little more work d13 will mot want to come for weekend visits any more. The ow is intentionally masking her miserable behind the cowards back. .
S23 and d13 confronted the coward about this tuesday night. The ow of course denied it and he defended her. D13 has been telling him how much she hates the ow and her kid and he doesnt hear her. He dodges every complaint this child has. I would feel lime a loser if one of my kids said to me that they didnt respect or trust me and that is exactly what d13 told him.
During this arguing, through text of course, d13 let it slip that the coward and the ow became engaged earlier this year and will be married in the spring. D13 has known since july but didnt know how to tell me without hurting me. I couldnt be with someone knowing that didnt at least like my kids. The coward has said to me and the kids how much he cant stand her kid. The ow obviously doesnt want my kids around which is fine with me. I dont believe that the coward even knows that she is saying these things and how she really feels about them and yet they are getting married.
This is really a sick and disgusting thing that they are doing to everyone involved.
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I hope your kids feel strong enough to stick to their truth and set some boundaries.
And it tells you the character of the person he is planning to marry....looks like a big dollop of karma for your xh to me.
And hopefully your kids will feel less pressure to pretend fake happy families...so he loses his kids too and you get more of them...another nice bit of karma right there.
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I hear you blue. I don’t know how the ow are more important than our children and they don’t hear the children. My children have told h how they feel as ow posts on social media about me most days and yet I do nothing. I don’t retaliate as I am better than her and I don’t need to be that childish.
Tbh I prefer h out of our lives completely but that is up to the children as he has popped up again. I will wait for the next abandonment and pick up the pieces when he lets them down which seems to be starting with a couple of days! I always said I would never stop them seeing their father but if he vanishes from them again I will have to seriously think before I let him be in contact again. Xx
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Karma would be great and about time. I must admit though hearing they were getting married did hurt. Not as much as a year or to ago but a little bit. The coward told d13 rhat it felt like his kids dont want him around. She said he seemed upset, sad and depressed last time she seen him. D13 did set a boundary. She told him that she didnt want to come to his house any more if the ow and her kid was there. He said that he wpuld have them leave for the weekend if it would help. A year ago in the parenting time assessment he said that he could not ask her to leave her home when d13 xame on the weekends. Why the change of heart? He doesnt understand that d13 feels no emotional connection with him. Dunny, that was one of the reasons he gave as to wjy he was leaving me. I would rather he be out of their lives completely also. Im sick of watching my kids be hurt and let down all the time. Im terrified that s21 is going to turn more to drugs and alcohol. Which both are a problem in the cowards family. His biological father was an alcoholic who beat his mother and we buried his 24 uear old half brother from a cocaine and heroin overdose. It just keeps getting worse.
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So just got served with court papers from my vanisher. He has said our marriage irretrievably broken down. Just a warning to other LBS that ANY emails or words you send them in regards to the relationship will be used by their lawyers against you. I had written a lovely email before new years to say wish you well for 2018 and I am sorry about any mistakes I made during our marriage (trying to open dialogue with him). THIS was used that I agreed that our marriage was in trouble; plus I wrote him a nasty email saying he is screwing around with men, and yes, this has turned up in the court documents.
So to you all there, not only zip ya lips, but try not to send nasty grams or write anything that can be used to say the marriage was already over......I don't regret any of it and I am surprised he obviously sent all emails to his lawyer from me......aaaweeee, such a 'nice' guy he is.
Coward my daughter says.
In the court documents it says whether I want to attend in court (he has opted for NO). I wondered if it was worth flying to Melbourne to attend so I can have closure. Is it worth standing there proudly or does it do no good.
Any thoughts?
Aus
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He had to pay the lawyer to review those emails.
He has to live with the fact that those are now in what I assume are public documents.
But you are right that everyone here should view every text/email/letter as a potential exhibit. Usually even after divorce there can be modification to custody/support, etc. (read more litigation where these things can be used against you) that still suggest that the less said the better. Also though keep in mind that courts know this is a tense and difficult situation and that people often get off kilter in these times. Look to your lawyer for advice, but likely he won't get much mileage from this. Just learn your lesson and move forward.
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Thanks Unraveled....yes, its cost him more than money.
I spoke to his sister whom I have had very limited contact. She said she saw him a month ago in Melbourne. Says he is just the same brother that they know, speaks highly of our children, and only saying that he is just getting to know 'himself' and she doesn't think he has AP on the scene. I asked her if she knows where he is living....silence. She said no she doesn't only that he mentioned he is renting from a friend (whom I believe is the AP) and she saw no 'evidence' of another person (he picked them up at the airport and took them to their hotel).
One minute I think maybe this is and Exit affair not MLC, but then again when I write things like that.....it still sounds like everyone else's experience (different but the same)! A friend who went out drinking with my H, 8 months before he ended our marriage said he spoke lovingly about me and 'wanted to make me happy'. Doesn't sound like someone who was thinking of leaving his marriage.
However I try and rearrange it in my head....it still doesn't work out and probably never will. I can see why it takes us LBS years to get over this, I thought I had this handled but triggers starting for first time really with legal documents. Especially seeing emails being twisted around to look like I 'knew' the marriage was irretrieveable and completely over. I never sent emails saying I wanted to work on my marriage either.....because he was so adamant he was done. I know in a couple of days I will be fine....but I think it will be painful for a long time. Going to read some Chump Lady now to get my mojo back.
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H has printed off all emails I have sent him to use against me. I tried to open dialogue for our kids sake last night and now we will never speak again. Evil man xx
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Yes, everyone be careful with anything you write, or say even, because they learn to provoke and record you. They become the most unbelievable, schemers, the evilest people you've ever had to deal with, except for the OW, who can be even worse.
They will use anything against you because they know they don't have a real case. Their lawyers believe them at first, but eventually they see through them, too.
Ausgatorgirl, I wouldn't worry about your email admitting any mistakes, that just shows people (lawyers, judges) that you are a normal person who can admit their faults and who would like to open up a dialogue. And if ever questioned in court about it, you can say just that.
About going to court for closure, I hadn't thought of it that way. I remember dreading and being terrified of that first separation hearing, but then it wasn't that bad, and it did take away the 'scary' from the whole thing. Also, if I were him and knew that you would be present while he was not, that would make me anxious thinking that you would get to put more points across.
His not wanting to be present shows how scared he is of the whole D thing, too.
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Thanks Milly, I needed that feedback....xx
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I sent emails saying I wanted to work on my marriage and that he needed to see the kids. I did rant in some as I was so frustrated that I got no reply even with our children. That has come back to bite me in the a$$. Xx
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There is no point in trying to reason with h. I don’t think I will even bother informing him of the children as h said he can walk away if they won’t intergrate into his life and new family. Complete nc is the only option xx
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You may need to do basic factual info if the divorce is still ongoing RP to show that you have behaved reasonably and are not alienating the kids, but that really is a bare minimum...so, telling him your son was in x hospital and why but without any suggestion on what your h should do or how you feel about anything. Just the facts as UM said on another thread.
Where are you at with the divorce process?
And what is the best way to give him basic or emergency info - I found email best bc I could bc it to my L if I needed to, and when xh did crazy text rants, I just replied the next day by a short email - but reduce your contact to almost nothing?
You sound angry - which is ok - but you need to let your actions be driven by colder logic in a divorce process perhaps?
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I’m not angry really, I am upset though and really it is my own stupidity for still thinking he will be reasonable at some point or show me any respect or empathy.
Had the decree nisi in August and awaiting finances before absolute but h won’t do mediation and thinks he can go straight to court and then says he can’t afford it yet as I have already cost him £8000 of divorce debt.
H is currently apparently investigating his ow. Solicitor and will not inform me or my solicitor who or if he has new respresentation. I did want to wait for the finances until absolute but as divorce so far has been 16 mths, I am feeling that come jan I will apply for absolute myself. Xx
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I’m not angry really, I am upset though and really it is my own stupidity for still thinking he will be reasonable at some point or show me any respect or empathy.
I did the same, RP, most of us do especially if we are not contesting their divorce so from our POV they have what they say they want.
And then we slowly learn that there is no reason or decent adult stuff in them, so we adjust accordingly that's all.
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RP- I advise to not apply for absolute until fianances are sorted. My solicitor advised not to as once absolute is done he will drag his feet even more especially if it’s not in his best interest financially to sort a settlement.
As for texts and any written communication Witt your MLCer I was always very carful about this. The exchanges actually worked in my favour as me being the sane one out of the two of us did not just rant and always kept in mind what will make me look better in court eg- no mentioning OW, no name calling and always showing that I am encouraging contact with the kids. Monster however could not contain his anger and would spew back- which I used against him in court. Maybe manipulative on my end but mamma bear took over and I knew I had no choice but to use it to win custody of my kids. I tried to be the bigger person by initially not including incriminating messages from his mum and sister but his sister stabbed me in the back so I included it- only necessary things not everything. My dignity remains in tact and I don’t believe I played dirty- just did what I had to do to protect me and my kids.
Aus- I’m not sure about turning up at court. I’m not convinced it will give you closure. May just cause you more distress. Unless it helps you legally and emotionally I would avoid.
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I'm sorry you are all dealing with such stress from these fools.
Aus, I agree, I don't know that showing up in court will bring closure, but only you really know if that will be better for you. I think for me, I would do whatever I could remotely.
I also wouldn't worry about your words in email making it appear that you knew there were problems in the marriage. You can explain that you were in essence walking on eggshells and avoiding talking about your marriage in terms of reconciling because you were aware he would react with either anger, blame or escalating bad behavior of some kind.
I'm starting to feel like I have a unicorn MLCer. A lot of them go years without divorcing or talking about it, but most times they're clingers, not vanishers.
A lot of them don't start the D, but when the LBS finally starts it, they deal with it in some way, even if it's just arguing and
Some of them are vanishers who go years and years without divorcing, but they do take action and make a show of at least somewhat dealing with divorce (i.e. Anjae's Mr. J and his foolish crazy court cases).
I have the one who vanished and even before I had cancer when I spent all my money doing all the D work and he didn't have to do anything to get it, he still avoided and hid away and stuck his head in the sand. Like the old story of the guy who went out to get cigarettes and just never returned.
I chased him from Dec 2015 to June 2016 for his financial disclosure form. Only got it after one day before he moved 1100 miles away. It was handwritten in chicken scratch penmanship.
Email after email about legal issues sent to him in 2017 went ignored. Texts about legal issues would be ignored or he's respond that he was working and would respond when he had time, which he never did.
I texted him in spring 2017 to tell him the actual date the D would be filed. No response, not even an "Okay." Then two weeks later I got a random text with a picture of my dog and said something about how he'd taken the dog to the beach and the dog loved the waves, etc, but nothing about the D. (And then I found out that the day he sent the picture of the dog was when OW's exH got remarried. ???)
And then we all know how it turned out, I got diagnosed with cancer and he faded into the ether and the rest is history...
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So I posted on my own thread but thought I would post something different here.
Nah, YOU ARE SO RIGHT!
Exh and I had a bit of an email discussion on Friday. I posted some of it in my own thread but what got me was something else he said. He said that I once posted (whatever it was, can't think of the words right now) and the only place he would have ever seen that would be Fakebook. Guess what? We are not friends there lol. I have never looked at his social media, he doesn't post much anyway.
THEY ARE WATCHING even when you don't think they are. Why are they watching? Hmm... Some of my xh's words on Friday were " I still love you. I will always love you. We did some amazing things together but now it is time to experience new things with new people and new partners'
🤢
Gag me with a spoon.
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THEY ARE WATCHING even when you don't think they are. Why are they watching? Hmm... Some of my xh's words on Friday were " I still love you. I will always love you. We did some amazing things together but now it is time to experience new things with new people and new partners'
🤢
I know that they watch, they always know what is going on. How? Why? I am unsure....I guess somewhere in the MLC head they still care....we the LBS still matter.
"We did some amazing things together but now it is time to experience new things with new people and new partners'".....guess this is how the MLC justifies to themselves that what they are doing is Ok...hmmmmm
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Well, haven't been using FB for a while but will make sure I post some gorgeous pics from my Christmas in Barcelona then lol ;)
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I know I always say this, and of course I have no way to verify, but I really, really don't think my H is watching in any way, shape or form.
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Nas, I have always said the exact same thing
Honestly, I don't really care anymore, lol. I just wanted to let nah know that she's right.
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Well, maybe one day I'll see something that makes me think otherwise.
Honestly, I don't think he could handle checking up on anything to do with me. How can he keep living his shiny new life and look at my social media and be reminded of what I'm going through. Unless he has pure ice water running through his veins. Who knows.
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I was curious about something, figured I'd ask here since it's a discussion. Is the vanisher because they are trying to avoid anything that would remind them of reality. Is it that they think it'll help block memories of LBS. Just curious to hear ideas why the vanishing. I've heard of periods maybe 6months to 1 year with no contact then calling and in distress. Anyone have that experience?
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Honestly, I don't really care anymore, lol. I just wanted to let nah know that she's right.
Haha... Only b/c I've been in this MLC biz for a long time.
Nas, You may be right, OR you may never know BUT, like Tyks, I really truly did not believe he was watching, until I had proof that he was (and still is).
And YES, YES, YES, Treasur, post those fabulous pics. I know I did, let them eat their hearts out.
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Just curious to hear ideas why the vanishing.
I like to keep it simple, because well, once you get past the pain, it really is simple. I can sum it up in one word...
GUILT.
They are trying to hide from it, but they can't.
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I like to keep it simple, because well, once you get past the pain, it really is simple. I can sum it up in one word...
GUILT.
They are trying to hide from it, but they can't.
Welcome back Nah...thought that the dreaded Vanishing epidemic had succumbed another victim 😂😂😂. Hope all is well.
In The Valley....I totally agree that it is GUILT that makes the vanishers run away. They try to create a new life (new family, new friends, new interests...ie basically a new personality) in order to escape their actions. They know what they have done to their spouse, children, family and friends is wrong and the guilt contains them. This affects their physical appearance and their personality. They run, they gruelly punish themselves with obsessive exercise regimes, drinking, spending in order to diminish their guilt. BUT we all know that you can't keep running forever!
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Guilt makes sense. You do something terrible to someone you don't want to see them.
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ITV...it sucks big time. But just remember they can't run forever! At some stage they need to face reality and the destruction that they have caused. Hang in there mate...be the best dad possible to your boys....your daughter will come around.
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Guilt makes sense. You do something terrible to someone you don't want to see them.
It’s veey hard for them to pretend they haven’t done whatever bad things they’ve done unless they completely avoid everything connected to the bad things they’ve done. Out of sight, out of mind (mostly). I know a lot of people say it can’t be out of sight, out of mind forever. Although unfortunately, we’ve seen proof that it can be for a very long time. Boggles the mind how they can avoid for years.
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Guilt makes sense. You do something terrible to someone you don't want to see them.
It’s veey hard for them to pretend they haven’t done whatever bad things they’ve done unless they completely avoid everything connected to the bad things they’ve done. Out of sight, out of mind (mostly). I know a lot of people say it can’t be out of sight, out of mind forever. Although unfortunately, we’ve seen proof that it can be for a very long time. Boggles the mind how they can avoid for years.
And I believe that some of them can avoid it for the rest of their lives.......
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I really think vanishing is just about Avoidance 101.
Difficult to know exactly what any individual is most avoiding, but there is a long potential list isn't there? Reality, practical consequences, dealing with other people's feelings or opinions, dealing with their own feelings of guilt or loss or responsibility.
Whatever they are avoiding, the action of vanishing I think just says two things clearly.
That it is easier for them than the alternative.
And that the benefit from their avoidance to them is more important than the damage or difficulty they cause to anyone else.
Horrid, but strangely simple.
It is good when we reach a spot when it becomes less about why they vanish and more about our healthy desire to let go of wanting the insane dysfunction they carry in our lives. I never thought I'd get there but NC is a sane choice for me regardless of why my then h stopped behaving like a sane decent adult. A gift for me and he gets in return the new life he wanted without the irritating responsibility of dealing with the mess he made of his old one much as it saddens me to see what he did and who he evidently is choosing to be now. We both deserved much better. But it is nice to be able to shrug my shoulders and let it be.
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My dad managed the out of sight, out of mind for 37 years now and he never showed a lick of remorse.
Living high on the hog with OW
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Thanks Bren for the encouragement and everyone else for the responses. What really causes anxiety is the unknown. When I think I know what will eventually happen, I feel good even though its not the outcome I might want. If I knew she would run forever I could relax, but I have those moments that I'm sure she is going to hit bottom and face reality. As Treasure says, reaching a point that it doesn't matter to me is probably the healthiest place to be. If a person is capable of suppressing that guilt for the remainder of their life, they are not a person we want in our lives.
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Welcome back Nah...thought that the dreaded Vanishing epidemic had succumbed another victim 😂😂😂. Hope all is well.
Nope, I'm always here just really busy lately. I guess I will always be a lifer on here. :D
If a person is capable of suppressing that guilt for the remainder of their life, they are not a person we want in our lives.
Wow... You're way ahead of the game than I was at your timeline.
Unfortunately, It seems the vanishers are better at avoidance than the other MLCers. Often that makes the LBSers feel that they didn't love us as much as the other MCLers. I don't believe that at all. It's just that their guilt is bigger. Doesn't really change the outcome though, except that we tend to detach quicker b/c they aren't in our faces all the time.
If they do find their way home, we usually no longer give a sh!t.
Their loss.
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Welcome back Nah...thought that the dreaded Vanishing epidemic had succumbed another victim 😂😂😂. Hope all is well.
Nope, I'm always here just really busy lately. I guess I will always be a lifer on here. :D
Well hallelujah for that.
If a person is capable of suppressing that guilt for the remainder of their life, they are not a person we want in our lives.
Wow... You're way ahead of the game than I was at your timeline.
Unfortunately, It seems the vanishers are better at avoidance than the other MLCers. Often that makes the LBSers feel that they didn't love us as much as the other MCLers. I don't believe that at all. It's just that their guilt is bigger. Doesn't really change the outcome though, except that we tend to detach quicker b/c they aren't in our faces all the time.
If they do find their way home, we usually no longer give a sh!t.
Their loss.
I can't wait for the day I can say "his loss" and mean it!
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What inthevalley said has always made sense to me (or did once I stopped running around in shock like a beheaded chicken!)
Either they are profoundly broken...in which case, safer to stay away until or unless they show real signs of being a sane decent adult again. And for vanishers, that means un-vanishing in an honest respectful way. Getting off the avoidance train.
Or
They will choose to keep running and avoiding forever, blaming others instead of taking responsibility for their own actions...in which case, they will continue to use and abuse and lie to everyone in their life so again who would want that?
I agree with Nah that the sort of secret sorrow that comes with a vanisher is feeling that perhaps we were less loved, less important, not worth even a conversation. Idk if that is true in their heads tbh. I suspect not, I suspect it might even be almost the opposite - that they hate themselves more and can't bear the guilt of seeing us or their old life at all. That they have simply burnt too many bridges and built too big a wall for too long.
Having said that though, when my xh unleashed some pop up crazy monster during his divorce process, I found myself VERY grateful not to have had a monster clinger full of venom and bonkers stuff. It is exhausting and impossible to deal with imho. :)
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I decided to post my email from the vanisher so that you guys could see it. Some of it explains why they make themselves scarce (most we already know) but I find it very insightful after 2.5 years of barely any contact. Any thoughts??? Maybe if I were not so detached I might actually start to fight... but no thank you at this point. And I am not really sure why he has anger towards me lol... No point talking to him because it just goes back and forth, back and forth and nothing ever gets closure
I am not sure what we need to say about our 20 year relationship. We are divorced and apart for 2 years. The relationship and life we had was not regretful at all. We had good times and bad but at the end I did what I did and it was not the best way to handle it. Which I have said before, the past cannot be changed all we can do is move forward. If you are going to throw this $h!te in my face that is going to be difficult.
I don't hate you, I just don't know how to deal with you. I do, at times, feel anger when dealing with you. I am not sure if it is anger at myself for the way things ended or agitation at you. I really don't know.
How am I supposed to treat you exactly. You can't bring yourself to drop the kids off at my place. You can't be there when I pick D16 up so what I am supposed to do. You cut off communication until it suits you. Again I really don't know. Either we move on and try to be respectful to each other or we hold on to the past and continue like this.
I don't want to sling mud and say you did this or didn't do that but for years I felt underappreciated and everything I did was for the family but yet even today you say I should have done more. I feel like I gave and gave but you still wanted more. Then at the end I wanted to stay strong to the way I felt and not be swayed by you so I did stay away and found it difficult to be around you. I waited for you to call and ask me for help with the house but you didn't. So I wanted to be more helpful there but didn't say anything that would make you think that. I knew then, just as I do now that I wasn't coming back, and I also knew that it wasn't fair to you with the way it ended. It also wasn't fair to go through the motions to seem like I was working on it and deep down knowing I did not want to come back.
And it has nothing to do with anybody else that I had met. Sure talking to someone else, which as wrong was the "trigger", but it was not the root cause of the problem. The root cause is I was not happy with the way I was and the way our relationship was. No amount of talking or counselling was going to convince me otherwise. I am stubborn and when I get my mind set on something I can't even talk myself out of it. There was no closure because we never had a fight or a good discussion about how I felt and why I felt that way. I did not want to get into a situation to make you fell even worse by saying stuff that would be hurtful.
From my point of view I was not the person I wanted to be. You weren't the person I wanted you to be and I didn't see either of us changing. I am not sure if you want to call that irreconcilable differences or growing apart or what but I did not see a way to get there so I built a wall. Not having to deal with it was easier than dealing with it.
I still love you and I always will. You were such a big part of my life and we did a lot of great things together. But it is time for us to experience new and different things. To learn and grow with new challenges and new partners. To move on to the next chapter in our lives. You once said or posted something like a relationship is over once we have nothing else to learn for each other. I guess we got to that point. I hope you can find closure and happiness sooner rather than later.
Anyway I will try to work on my anger so we can communicate better for the good of our kids and our own mental health.
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Holy Sh!t!!!
Thank you for posting that Tyks.
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I hope people chime in with thoughts, but I'm speechless. 2+ years from BD and his email sounds like BD could've been yesterday. Blame, deflection, self-pity, excuses...
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Thank you for sharing so openly something that I suspect was hard for you to read, Tyks.
I could almost hear my xh saying almost exactly the same thing.
I guess what struck me most was the flavour of 'well, I did a bad thing but get over it and stop your mean detachment s$it so it's easier for me to deal with you...or things will get more difficult' tone.
And his 'you wanted too much....but then didn't ask me for help' logic loop is a classic.
Although my favourite bit might be his outrage that 'you cut off communication when it suits you'. From a vanisher. ::)
Probably the most honest nugget is when he says he still feels angry and doesn't really know why. And that not dealing with it was easier for him.
Out of interest, did you respond to the note or just do nothing? Not sure I see a question being asked to answer really, just quite a lot of anger and sadz, with the odd accidental nugget of small insight. But still not much action from him really.
And how do you feel about it and him now? There is an exercise about writing an apology letter to yourself....can't help but feel you'd write a better one lol.
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I do think that my progress has been faster because she's been so absent. This sight has been a god send as well. The way things have played out has been consistent with all the info I've found on here, helps put me at ease.
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His email is very heavily defended. He isn’t allowing himself to feel the guilt because it’s too hard for him.
I think one reason for appreciating a vanished is that at least they aren’t trying to replace a once deeply felt love with a pale imitation of some kind of friendship. That is almost like an insult to the relationship that was - to feel connection so easily replaced with superficial friendliness. At least if they burn it all down, it’s a kind of dysfunctional acknowledgement of the complete destruction of something big.
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Hi Tyks,
Not really surprised tbh. I know it’s not nice and it’s horrid to hear all that blaming but I’m over 7 years in and even up until recently I’ve had similar stuff to that from H. I’d say it’s probably only this last year it’s not happened quite so much. It seems to take years to stop being all about them
X
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Wow tyks, so many lines in your email I have heard very similar from h mouth. I’m sorry and I shouldn’t but I actually laughed at you cut off communication. That is absolutely a wtf moment! As treasur said this from a vanisher!! I am also curious as to whether you replied xx
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Interesting......thank you for posting that, Tyks.
He doesn't want to sling mud......but, oops! I guess he really did want to sling mud. And right squarely at you! ::)
But gee, he really does love you. And always will....... (vigorous shaking of my head combined with multiple eye rolls)
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Tyks .. I am glad you decided to post this email. I know it sure hurt to read it and for that I am sorry. When you read it to me yesterday my stomach actually reacted and anxiety set in ..and really, I just ache for all the unfairness and hurt this MLC causes to so many of us .
I need to understand this universal feeling these men ( maybe the women too) seem to have .."unappreciated ". Or as your husband says "under appreciated". My husband chanted to same , over and over again. NOT prior to BD by the way , but his said lament after he came back. To say I had no tolerance for that is the biggest understatement of the universe . You DARE to have an affair , abandonment this family , injure my children and come back here whining and sniveling about all of YOUR hurt ? . Regardless, I digress into the black whole and that is not where I do my best thinking.
We talked about this ...you and I , the unappreciated statement. Apparrently it has to do with their highest need " make you wife happy". We can scoff but I have read 100's of articles on the needs of men or husbands and this is always at the top. To feel appreciated and that they can make their wives happy. Hmmm.. say I . My husband was an extreme workaholic . I worked ft and had 5 kids ... and an absent husband , partner, helpmate etc. He was bust making millions to show "how much he loved me and did everything for his family " . I did NOT feel his love this way. The biggest pay check would never (NEVER) make me feel loving feelings towards him. I was angry, lonely, exhausted, resentfull ......FAR from "happy" with the heavy burden of doing "it all" . That's how it felt. I shamefully remember ripping a paycheck in half ...telling him that's how little his money meant to me . I needed help , I needed support ...I needed a man and a husband. I hated my life at times ...maybe even hated him. So I would imagine he absolutely felt unappreciated for all his efforts . HE NEVER SAID THAT . So, it would have required my "pretending " to be happy and appreciate his 150 hour a week job etc etc. I was not happy and I did not appreciated living alone and fatherless children . I do not know what the resolution would have been ...but it certainly was not an affair . ( I know there is far more that that to it ) . Like I have read over and over again...these men never spoke out loud about anything. Nothing can be resolved under these conditions ...so it adds to their own internal unhappiness of stuffing it all down.
My husband also has said many many times that every single thing he did was for me and the girls . 100 % . He has said this in counselling repeatedly . And yet , to him he was doing "everything right " and still had an unhappy wife . I am told it is utterly devastating to a man to not be able to make his wife "happy". So I guess you can add that into the mix of his FOO issues, aging, hormone changes, etc etc ....this "perfect" storm stuff.
Regardless ... how they handle this "unhappiness " is absolutely selfish and cruel and they have blocked you from changing things, discussions, comprimises because you have no idea that they feel like they feel... The "blame" lies directly on the MLC shoulders as he did not try to talk and solve ...he chose to run and hide. Perhaps that is what he is angry about ...acting like a coward .
He still loves you ? That is a curious statement . None of his actions make you feel loved . He is still a runner ...very mixed up superficial runner. A silent quitter . That is just sad for everyone . He has not done the "work" , so this relationship he has now will repeat all the same issues and likely he will be on his own again in the future. Not your problem .
New thread: https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=10504.0