Midlife Crisis: Support for Left Behind Spouses
Archives => Archived Topics => Topic started by: denjef31 on November 15, 2016, 03:07:15 AM
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UM,
Well when my H went on dates I didnt care. He would tell me about his dates in an upbeat way like he was looking forward to it. Maybe he was but i could smell desperation from him to get a reaction. He absolutely was going on dates but i knew those dates meant nothing to him he was just staying busy. As long as he was actively sharing the details of his date and things he was doing i felt secure in my depressed state. What made things change was when he stopped sharing the details of his dates, he stopped including me in anything, he stopped asking me out on dated and he stopped asking me to go to family events. He was still nice and cordial but I noticed the shift instantly.
Thats when i had my awakening. It still took me another 6-8 months to even try to turn things around. It was like I could see I was getting left behind but i wasnt strong enough just yet to make my way back. I finally found the strength to sit down and share some things with him and my feelings but by then he was already dealing with MLC caused by FOO issues, divorce, and 2 deaths back to back of people very close to him. So in essence you can get a life they will notice but they wont do anything still until you are almost slipping away.
UM, i did meet a guy and he help bring on the fog. He was kind, attentive, happy easy go lucky. It wasnt anything i didnt like about this guy yet I knew deep down he was not going to be the person i grew old with. He was like a last chance to explore people and places i havent prior to. I had a good carefree time with him but the whole time i was looking back making sure H was where i left him. The guy i met was 8 years younger than me. I liked this guy i really did,but i loved my H and i knew my future was with him i just wanted to get whatever I was feeling out of my system. I was aware of the risk i was taking but it was something i felt I had to do. It feels like i pretty much had to sense i was losing or I had lost everything to come out of my depression ro start working on the damage I caused.
Denjef31
Previous thread: https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=8451.0
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Mine was very guarded about her business and life too.
She was surprising open with the everyday stuff but very cagey on anything private.
well apart from going away or this cruise she went on.Those she couldn't wait to have a gloat about when l asked.
l think they do still think about us 24 7 too. l just saw things you know,
noticed funny things for someone that wasn't suppose to care anymore.
still do now , even when she stopped talking to me for a few mths,
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Handpuppets,
Towards the end of my depression, I did reach out to him more. Despite what we LBS think, when they are ready to try to repair the damage they will indeed come forth to let their desire to come back to the marriage be known. Just as much as I shut him down and treated him like he had the plague, I was also quick to let him know I still loved him and wanted to work on the marriage when the depression lifted. It was gradual though, at first I asked if he wanted to come over with me and the kids to watch tv, then I remember making up another excuse all kid related at first. I was testing him to see how receptive he was. Then one night I asked if he wanted to stay over. He asked me to stay over his place instead.
He was unsure of what was happening because I turned him down left and right every chance I got. He also by then was dealing with MLC and in replay. He did all the things I did to him, withdraw, come close,withdraw, disappear, and get clingy when he thinks I am going to move on. If your spouse is doing these things then they have some awareness of what they are doing. They also may not want to lose you and have not made their mind up about the other person. Sometimes they may even be like me, entertaining someone else for pure fun and selfishness but know deep down they belong with you and will return home at some point. It is better for them to leave as to not hurt you anymore than
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laptop died sorry. I was saying they dont want to hurt you more than they already have so they retreat to do what it is they feel they need to do. At least that was my rationale behind my running away.
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Butterfly, if your H has said this he is telling the truth. Now MLC do lie, but usually not about their feelings towards their spouse. I never told my H I didnt love him, I told him I was not inlove with him because that is what I believed at the time. I told him to move on with his life, and go find a girlfriend. I remember being full of rage to I actually would scream it at him to move on then slam the phone down. I know now those feelings were always there just hidden and protected safe from my own self destruction.
I didnt even realize I was depressed for 3 years. I went to my primary doctor, a psychiatrist and a counselor and they all diagnosed me as depressed.Ihave tried wellbutrin, celexa, prozac, and clonazepam but I would never stay on them because I refused to believe I was depressed. My answer was get a new life, I was just unhappy with H.
It just takes time to work through the issues, and once H finally dropped the rope and let me twist in the wind is when I finally took a look within and straighten the h$ll up. Again, I could have stayed in that state of depression indefinitely as long as he was willing to hold on and go down in flames with me.
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Denje
Your description of yourself sounds just like my H. Refused to take medication for depression, said it just made him feel numb and masked his feelings. Said he was unhappy with me. In his eyes removing himself from me would solve all his problems. I have a clinging boomerang so I don't know how he justifies all this to himself now!
Can I ask you, when you finally accepted that you suffered with depression, did you take medication for it?
Thanks Cat
Sorry for the hijack UM!!
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Sorry UM, i have done a bad thing.....I hijacked your thread sorry about that!! Anyone has a question for me that I havent already answered pls go to my thread and i will answer there. Again sorry UM😉
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Sorry UM, i have done a bad thing.....I hijacked your thread sorry about that!! Anyone has a question for me that I havent already answered pls go to my thread and i will answer there. Again sorry UM😉
Den, you have NOT done a "bad thing"at all. This has, arguably been one of the best discussions that I have seen here for a while. I have split this part of my thread off to its own discussion topic - I hope the title is OK... This has been VERY insightful and I think of significant help to more than a few people... OK, I had to create a new thread after it blew up over the weekend but the conversation should REALLY continue, here or elsewhere.....
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The title is perfect considering the topic. No worries UM, I am just glad you are not mad your thread got off topic.
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Den-
I have pulled some quotes from you that I would be curious to hear more about, if you don't mind.
I liked this guy i really did,but i loved my H and i knew my future was with him i just wanted to get whatever I was feeling out of my system. I was aware of the risk i was taking but it was something i felt I had to do.: I have told my H this so many times, that he just needs to go and do whatever it is that he feels he needs to do otherwise he will implode; he hasn't left. He's terrified to leave (his words).
They also may not want to lose you and have not made their mind up about the other person. Sometimes they may even be like me, entertaining someone else for pure fun and selfishness but know deep down they belong with you and will return home at some point.: I truly believe this is going on with my H. 2 MOWs and no one is making a move. It's a sense of entitlement
I told him to move on with his life, and go find a girlfriend. I remember being full of rage to I actually would scream it at him to move on: he tells me this all the time. You deserve someone so much better than me. Go find someone. Is it to relieve guilt b/c of what he's doing?
once H finally dropped the rope and let me twist in the wind: how did he do this and how did you feel when he did?
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Cat66,
We need to remember most people who are depressed or suffering MLC do not think they are the problem. Some will be aware they are not themselves but they think the solution is to run away, self medicate with street drugs, affairs, abandonment, and even suicide. I gave all the medications prescribed a week or two and then I would toss them in the trash. The only ones I kept taking was the Wellbutrin because it gave me extreme boost of energy throughout the day. By the time I started taking Wellbutrin I I couldn't sleep for more than 2 hours.
The shambles my life was in haunted me. I hated my life and that included my job, my H, bills, the routine, just every aspect of it. I told myself if I didn't have kids I could go live the life I was meant to have, If I didn't marry the man I did I would have found me the love of my life and I would be happy. I was disappointed in my choice of friends, wished I was born into a different family. Poor me everything and everybody sucked. I also took the clonazepam to help with sleep because I couldn't turn my brain off, it was constantly thinking and processing. I would lay in bed night after night thinking what if this happened? What if I did this? What if he did this? Yadi Yadi ya just a bunch of numb blinding questions for myself. I was so tired everyday and extremely irritable. I would b$tch at who I could(H) then play pretend denjef31 to everybody else. I couldn't share to a soul I got what I wanted and was still miserable. I couldn't tell anyone I trashed H so bad but I loved him and still wanted to be him, and that he was not all those things I painted him to be.
The 6-8 months after my awakening I was going to see a counselor by myself. Talking through it helped me tremendously. her and I decided I would try to deal with my depression without the drugs to see if I could make progress. She helped me realize that depression was real, and yes I truly had been depressed all this time. I have FOO issues I didn't know affect me so bad, my H affair, the death of my grandma, and dad. Just a lot of thingsI didn't deal with, but suppressed until the sh$t was falling out of my closet refusing to be ignored. I started taking each issue head on at rapid fire succession because again, I SENSED I was being left behind by H. Wallowing in my depression was no longer an option. Antidepressants are a good thing if they are able to find the right one's that works with your body chemistry. To me it just worsened my symptoms as I felt nothing at all.
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Whatthe,
How did he do this? He stopped everything I became accustomed to him trying to do. It's tough love. I guess he got to a point where he tried for 3 years to wait patiently for me to say I wanted the marriage back and that didn't work. He tried to date me that didn't work. He tried to stay away and out of my way that didn't work for long. He would stay away, but then he would see me and it would all crumble as he couldn't help but grab me for a hug or try to kiss me. He would call I answer then he would start talking relationship talk about getting back together and moving back in. When I wasn't receptive he would be so hurt and cry to me, retreat for a few days but I didn't care. His feelings were not my concern during this time.
He finally at some point detached, really started not just meeting women to make me jealous but to actually move on. He didn't tell me that I sensed it. I could feel literally the shift from I was his number 1 priority to she doesn't want me so she is someone I will always care about, but I have to move on type of shift. He didn't try to convince me he was done. He just did it. That scared me and I cried all night why the h$ll was I doing this. So many nights after the shift I just wanted to get in my car go to H apartment and just grab him, hug him, and tell him I do love him, and I do want the marriage. I didn't, not yet. I wasn't ready just yet and also because of pride. By then any negative feelings I had about H or the marriage were gone I just couldn't recall anything that warranted all that I had done. H started giving me tough love. He no longer was acting like my H by cutting the grass, fixing things around the house, offering to take to work or pick me up when we had bad weather, call to check on me everyday just because. He simply gave me what I thought I wanted with no interference from him whatsoever. When he did this to back away from the situation is when I was starting to come forward but it was slow and gradual. It took me almost another 8 months to open my mouth. End the end I do believe the LBS will have the final say in most cases it just takes a long time to get to that place
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denjef,
This just proves what RCR's articles tell us is so true. These MICer's do not care they are hurting us.
You have to completely let them go! Drop the rope! Live "as if" their not coming back. LEAVE them alone.
I hope everyone reads this thread.Thanks, den. :)
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Attaching
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So you wanted him to go and find someone else to relieve guilt or so he wouldn't be lonely? What was your thinking on this?
How do you totally drop the rope and leave them be if they are at home and involved in every aspect of your life?
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Denje
Thank you for your reply, I am finding your posts so helpful. You explain your thought processes and emotions so well, it really is illuminating to see things from your old perspective. I can relate so much of what you experienced to what I believe my H has been going through since BD and for at least a year before that.
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denjef, This was so helpful for me as I am sure it was for many other LBS. My H doesn't seem to worry or care about anything I do. It has been 3+ years, and finally we can have a civil conversation. I am trying to tie up the D. H is very matter of fact about it. H has destroyed everything in his path. Still with OW - 24, H - 63. I don't see that ending. I do see bits and pieces of what you are saying. How long did the MLC last for you?
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Whatthe,
I didn't want him to find anyone else that's the point I am trying to make. Most of the spouses do not want you to move on. Sure they will tell you that, and some believe they do but deep down it simply isn't true. I told him that because I was confident he wouldn't. I told him that to relieve my own guilt so I could say that I never told him to wait for me, and that I never told him he couldn't find someone else. I also told him that so if should catch me out with my friend I could say we are separated I told you to go find you somebody.
The whole time I was aware I didn't want that and I would be jealous and crushed if he did. Depression/MLC is a slippery tight rope to walk on trying to balance wanting freedom and being single, but hoping and expecting your old life waits for you to figure out whether you want or should return to it.i can't stress how selfish and disgusting it is. I felt I lost complete control of my abilities to make wise decisions during that time so I snuck around doing whatever I wanted that didn't include my family.
Whatthe, you must start going out with girlfriends, spend us much time as you can outside of the home and don't include him in the activities. Let him think about the fun you are having, the people you are meeting. Be very guard full just as he is with you in sharing what, who, and where you go. You are creating an air of mystery for yourself. At first you will be doing it for his benefit but then you will actually enjoy doing new hobbies, hanging out with old friends. He of course initially will be relieved and happy you are out for his own selfish reasons but eventually when he is with her and he knows you are not twiddling your thumbs watching the clock it will be him thinking about you the whole time he is with ow. That's when wheels of motion sets in and things begin to change as he begins to wonder if he might lose you. It isn't easy to do but that is really why it is important to GAL. I had a tough time with it as well and I have been through depression and I know what to not do but I did it. You will get there
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Strength,
Your H is still deep in the tunnel and the OW hasn't let her mask slip just yet. Sometimes everything has to be lost for them to hit their rock bottom. You won't be able to reach him right now with anything meaningful this just has to play out. You will get some hope every now and then as he gets a moment of clarity but you would have to give more details about what you are seeing and hearing from him and perhaps people that are close to him. I am not familiar with your thread I will try to read up on it tomorrow.
Denjef31
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thanks Den.
Some days I have to redefine what GAL/live for me means...today is one of those days.
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Thanks Denjef31 and UM
This thread is really helping me make sense of my MLCH's actions, I look forward to learning more and making a bit more sense out of what's happening 😊
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Wow, great insight, attaching
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I could feel literally the shift from I was his number 1 priority to she doesn't want me so she is someone I will always care about, but I have to move on type of shift. He didn't try to convince me he was done. He just did it.
Thunder is great about driving this point home and many people echo the same thing. You have to GAL for you.
I too started changing, but I was also fishing for compliments, wanting her to notice how I made good on all of the things she said to me during BD. Then I realized, I need to be doing these things for me and not her, because there may not be a her later and that's when I just did it.
I took down the family photos, I inadvertently told her I got rid of a bunch of her old clothes to good will and suddenly she stopped snooping and peeking into every corner. I think she noticed the changes, but she kept that to herself. Gone were her gasps of "what did you do to my ?!?".
I think it sank in that she left and filed for divorce and I was moving on, like I told her I was going to. I texted her aunt under the pretext of seeing how she was doing after surgery, to see if W had really told her we were through and she did. I decided I was going to see someone for a friend date I met on match . com. She lives too far away to date and we just hit it off as friends and she had a lot of advice to give me about being D. It was well worth the experience to see how strong she had grown and I knew I would get through this too.
On the way back I texted W that I would have the rest of her stuff boxed up and ready to go on Saturday. What was I going to do? Another Thunder-ism. She told her family, she's living with OM and divorce is pending. Next day she wants to cancel the divorce.
That's where I'm at now. The future will tell the rest, but I'm ready to move on if need be. I've crossed that bridge.
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Denjef, I again have to say how much this thread is needed! Thank you for sharing your journey with us , ultimately so we can heal !!
I just have to say there's a huge difference between getting a life truly for ourselves and getting a life thinking we're going to save the marriage !
This is something that I have realized when the lightbulb went off and I am headed on that journey now . There's something that clicks and you can still have hope and there will be moments of cycling , but when you truly get a life for yourself and start enjoying the day to day adventures and start getting to know who you are again and all that fills you with joy... That's when the light bulb clicks . It's for you to heal and get on with your life and not that you need someone else there at all , it's all about getting to know who you are again ! There's a moment in this that doesn't have anything to do with anger or betrayal or fear where you crossover and realize this is life today and start walking in the journey and rediscovering who you are as an individual !! Not saying that there aren't moments especially the times dealing with the MLCers... But when you truly start looking at yourself and rediscovering yourself and doing your mirror work , realizing the things that you need to change in yourself to benefit yourself that's when the light bulb goes off . We can't change them , all we can do is pray , all we can change is ourselves and our path . When it's raw and fresh, we grasp at trying to fix it. The pain is beyond belief and our lives have been destroyed – truly a bomb went off . But there does come a moment when we take care of ourselves . And when that happens it's an automatic detachment and get a life !
Thanks again for sharing , because it truly gives insight to what's going on on the other side and it is helped me especially to keep my anger and self-doubt in check !! Absolutely has let me know that it isn't about me which is truly a blessing !! God bless you and I will be praying for you and your family !
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Attaching.
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gman,
Did you box her stuff up?
I hope you did.
You are not a storage facility. People pay money to store their belongings.
No matter what she says actions speak louder than words.
Look at her actions, not her words.
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Attaching x
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Den:
My H used to say (he doesn't anymore) that we needed to get a D and then later on in life find see where it goes but knew I would not wait for him. Now he is pushing the D. What is that all about? I may have missed it in the thread
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Thunder, its sitting in tbe garage .. She tried to keep me from going to my lawyer tuesday, i went anyway. Being prepared.
Its all actions and not words at this point.
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denjef, could you explain the tunnel? I am hoping you have time to read my posts. We are 3+ years now. At times I hear I love you, then "you were a terrible wife" H told me 2 days ago how miserable he is and his life is very twisted. I will wait to hear from you. Hopefully, we can talk more. I have moved very far away from the situation. OW living in our home. She won the lottery. Almost 40 year age difference.
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GMAN,
Good for you! You shook her up, snatched that security blanket right from under her. As long as she had that comfort she was going to keep going the route she was on, the road has been altered and the path not so clear. Keep doing what you are doing, do not let up or change because you are seeing some positive signs from her because if you do she will revert back to the path she was on with the OM. You are walking a very fine line, but if you keep this up the rewards of saving your marriage could be within reach. Praying that god helps you continue to say and do the right things.
Denjef31
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Shelley,
Your husband is confused and cycling. It really depends on the emotions he is feeling at that time. He will continue to go back and forth, up and down, as he goes thru the tunnel. When the fog is the thickest, and the euphoria is at a heightened level we do not want to be married, we cant feel that we love you, we just feel empathy for you like you would a dear friend who is hurting. Some days we get clarity and the euphoric feelings have subsided somewhat.
Maybe the other person has pissed us off, disappointed us, the mask the OP wears has slipped and we begin to see things we don't like or didn't realize about that person. Then we compare them to you, and that's when we give you affection because we aren't so sure about the new life anymore so we cant close the door completely on you either. We will string you along unfortunately but not on purpose. Just one big state of confusion. It really is I love you, I don't love, I love you, I don't love you type of thing going on in our head. The feelings are very fluid and change daily and anything can trigger it.
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Shelley,
Your husband is confused and cycling. It really depends on the emotions he is feeling at that time. He will continue to go back and forth, up and down, as he goes thru the tunnel. When the fog is the thickest, and the euphoria is at a heightened level we do not want to be married, we cant feel that we love you, we just feel empathy for you like you would a dear friend who is hurting. Some days we get clarity and the euphoric feelings have subsided somewhat.
Maybe the other person has pissed us off, disappointed us, the mask the OP wears has slipped and we begin to see things we don't like or didn't realize about that person. Then we compare them to you, and that's when we give you affection because we aren't so sure about the new life anymore so we cant close the door completely on you either. We will string you along unfortunately but not on purpose. Just one big state of confusion. It really is I love you, I don't love, I love you, I don't love you type of thing going on in our head. The feelings are very fluid and change daily and anything can trigger it.
This is so interesting, thank you for this thread!
Denjef, my H moved 1000 miles away from me in June. I had my lawyer draft a financial agreement and H stalled and avoided me for months. He is paying me monthly alimony in the amount we agreed upon but never signed the official agreement and made up just ridiculous excuses for months about why he hadn'ts signed.
A few weeks ago, he found out I am moving 700 miles away. I wouldn't think it would affect him since he has moved so far away from me (emotionally and physically...1000 miles) and started a whole new life. But the second he learned I was moving, he had his lawyer draft a divorce petition. He put it in the mail to me yesterday so it will arrive just a day or two before our anniversary.
He knows I have literally just a few days until I make a huge move out of state, and last night he sent me an email saying I need to sign the paperwork ASAP because his lawyer needs to file it with the court before I move.
Talk about selfish and controlling! He is trying to make me jump through hoops now when I am stressed and moving and have no time, when he did nothing for 19 months and didn't respond when I had my lawyer draft something up back in June.
I feel this is a play for control and was done out of anger. Just wondering what your take is based on your experience on why he would be affected by me moving to a new state and since he's filing for D now after avoiding it for almost 2 years, has he firmly decided he's staying put in his new life.
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Strength,
The tunnel for me is nothing like what I envision it would be reading the articles on this forum. You have to remember I denied my depression for most of the 3 years. The tunnel is a very dark place, at least it was for me. It is a place where I did most of my thinking and rationalizing. I was in the tunnel and out of reach emotionally from everything and everyone. I would literally mentally be in the tunnel for times on end not being able to process the slightest detail of anything. I hid in the tunnel. I actually felt safe in the tunnel from making any decisions or assuming responsibility for anybody's happiness.
The tunnel for me also was a stagnant place where I was not learning or growing, but just still because I felt comfortable being suspended as if time stood still until I was ready to pick and start moving forward. Imagine a child having a safe place they run to when they are scared. Perhaps under their bed, in the closet, and the tree house.That is the tunnel, but for the adult it is deep within the mind. The tunnel has layers to it. As I passed thru, the fog was lifting ever so gently and the load became easier to carry and process.
Every layer removed, the work that needed to be done became more bearable, my outlook about things started changing slowly. I begin to see more positivity instead of doom and gloom. My thoughts and memories begin to change. It had happened so gradual that I literally felt like I was getting and feeling better to starting to be aware of things I was not cognizant of prior to. I was able to function, I was able to fool everybody, but I literally was a walking mental nutcase. No sleep, just thinking, processing, sadness, and self pity, followed by an urge to surround myself with people who were the opposite of me to fulfill things I thought I was missing or lacked in myself. I hope I explained it somewhat so you get an idea of the tunnel. Let me know
Denjef
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DJ, I like many others thank you so much for providing your experience here. You sound very much like what my wife is going through to a T. Reading the LBS experiences only confirms what I'm going though, while you're confirming what she is, through my own observations. And your feedback for my own actions is much appreciated.
They say it's the case and I believe so as well.. Do you feel that you had gone back in time almost to a younger you or to a place where you were confronted with the issues you had prior to your own crisis? Is that what the tunnel is, like a safe place between your current life and that of your past?
I had a transition myself at 35 and I often said I knew where the limits and walls were and that's what kept it a transition. My wife instead has said that she has none, since she doesn't care about herself on a fundamental level and I'm assuming that's what makes it a crisis. What you said about the OM rang true with me; it was just something you had to do or try, to get it out of your system.
I can see my wife feels much like you must have.. I'm the love of her life, but she wants a "pause" button.
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Nassua,
In my opinion I think you are correct it sounds very much like a power play. When you decided to move and I am assuming this was not discussed or agreed upon with him prior he felt he lost a little bit of control over you. You will no longer be where he left you and he does not like that one bit. The urgency he is placing on you to hurry and sign is definitely to piss you off, but he may not even be aware consciously that he is doing this.
What I mean by that is he is so irritated by your moving 700 miles away, and out of the last place he has attachment to with you that he is pushing for the divorce. However, once he is divorced then what? What other power play cards does he have? If I were you and if you can I would not give him the expedited divorce. Remember emotions and feelings are fluid during MLC. Other than him moving 1000 miles away how are the both of you with communicating, being friends, any flirting, relationship talk?
Denjef31
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GMAN,
There were no walls where I was. No clear path, just darkness and thinking, thinking, and more thinking. I do believe my depression was a crisis as it was not mild in any sense. There were days where I welcomed god to take me now. I just wanted to die. the statement of being in nothingness does a very good job of summing up my feelings. My attempts at euphoria was short lived, and I was always searching for something, anything to fill the hole. Despite what other people are saying their spouses tell them I thought everyone felt like I did but was just coexisting with life like that.
I wanted more, I wanted to feel alive. In that dark tunnel I was in there was a good and bad side of me; it was a jeckyll/hyde situation. One part of me was saying don't do this, look at the people you will hurt, the damage you will cause. The other self was saying do it! You only live once, I have to live for me and me only and when I die I didn't want to have any regrets. So I constantly fought these feelings but the bad side always overpower at first. I didn't think about it then, but I often kept fixating on the age of 20 during that time. I kept saying if I could just rewind the clock to when I was 20 years old. In my mind I was the same person, it was everyone else that had changed. Just mental confusion surrounding us at all times, and nothing is as it seems is true. Everything is reversed if you can understand that.
Denjef31
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Nassua,
In my opinion I think you are correct it sounds very much like a power play. When you decided to move and I am assuming this was not discussed or agreed upon with him prior he felt he lost a little bit of control over you. You will no longer be where he left you and he does not like that one bit. The urgency he is placing on you to hurry and sign is definitely to piss you off, but he may not even be aware consciously that he is doing this.
What I mean by that is he is so irritated by your moving 700 miles away, and out of the last place he has attachment to with you that he is pushing for the divorce. However, once he is divorced then what? What other power play cards does he have? If I were you and if you can I would not give him the expedited divorce. Remember emotions and feelings are fluid during MLC. Other than him moving 1000 miles away how are the both of you with communicating, being friends, any flirting, relationship talk?
Denjef31
Thanks so much for sharing your opinion. It's so helpful and appreciated!
I have no intention of jumping through hoops for him. I have so much on my plate right now as it is. He has had 19 months to act and didn't.
Our communication has run the gamut. He lived close by until June but we didn't see each other at all. He moved out July 2015 and was angry monster so we didn't talk much. Then in fall 2015 he was very, very depressed and expressing a lot of self-loathing. So when we spoke I tried to be encouraging.
Then in the early spring of 2016 I found out about OW (someone he knew from when he was young). He at first expressed some guilt, but more so I think at being caught. For about 2 months after he was communicating like crazy, mostly talking about our dog, who was like our child (we have no kids). I guess I would describe him then as trying to be almost a "buddy" but he was still so distant and never expressed missing me or anything.
When he moved I went very dark/dim because he was leaving me behind to start an entire new life: new city 1000 miles away, new job, new "relationship" with OW. I had my lawyer draw up the agreement and I have only contacted him about that since June.
When he first moved, he tried to continue sending me texts about our dog but I didn't respond as I couldn't be his "buddy" when he was doing this to me. After I didn't respond a few times he stopped trying.
When I communicate with him, I am polite, no anger, but mostly only discuss the legal things. Every so often over the summer I would make one of the silly jokes we used to make between us. But I guess if I had to describe it, I'd say since he moved away, I treat him almost like a distant relative.
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Nassau,
I don't think you should jump through any hoops. He moved away so he has to decide at some point after he stops running if he wants to reconcile or keep going the direction he is on. My question to you is are you still standing or do you agree with getting the divorce? Feelings for neither party ends after divorce, and in some cases the old relationship has to be dissolved completely for a new beginning. I have a friend who went thru a divorce, and they were divorced for 6 years before he woke up and wanted to recommit to the marriage. A long time yes, but a divorce is never what she wanted, and she has suffered but she was determined to silently stand for him.
Denjef31
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I made it clear to him when I had my lawyer draft up the financial agreement that I do not believe divorce is the answer.
But he's signed divorce papers so I won't refuse to sign. I'm just not going to rush to get it done before I move, which would be nearly impossible anyway.
I lost almost all hope of reconciling when he moved so far away and my hope these days is almost nonexistent. I am moving forward with my life as if he's gone for good.
I wanted more, I wanted to feel alive. In that dark tunnel I was in there was a good and bad side of me; it was a jeckyll/hyde situation. One part of me was saying don't do this, look at the people you will hurt, the damage you will cause. The other self was saying do it! You only live once, I have to live for me and me only and when I die I didn't want to have any regrets. So I constantly fought these feelings but the bad side always overpower at first. I didn't think about it then, but I often kept fixating on the age of 20 during that time. I kept saying if I could just rewind the clock to when I was 20 years old. In my mind I was the same person, it was everyone else that had changed. Just mental confusion surrounding us at all times, and nothing is as it seems is true. Everything is reversed if you can understand that.
Denjef31
The part I bolded hit me like a ton of bricks. This is exactly what my H has done, gone back to when he was 20 years old. He lives in a studio apartment that looks like a dorm room and is located on a college campus. He has an entry level job like the kind you would take right out of college. OW is someone he dated briefly at that time. (of course now she has 3 children and is separated, possibly divorcing her husband.)
It's amazing to me how you thought about going back to when you were 20 years old, but my H actually did it. He took it that next step of literally going back in time.
Makes me wonder if he can find his way back since he's taken it so much farther than so many MLCers take it.
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attaching
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I appreciate this thread.
I wanted more, I wanted to feel alive. In that dark tunnel I was in there was a good and bad side of me; it was a jeckyll/hyde situation. One part of me was saying don't do this, look at the people you will hurt, the damage you will cause. The other self was saying do it! You only live once, I have to live for me and me only and when I die I didn't want to have any regrets. So I constantly fought these feelings but the bad side always overpower at first.
I sent my H an email last week talking about separation, divorce and selling the house. That "surprised" him. He then suggested MC "to figure out where WE go from here".
During the first session he told the counselor that he is torn between what he "should do" and what "he wants to do".
I got a little upset by that but now reading your post I understand. At this moment in time he thinks he should come because it is the right thing to do but he doesn't want to bc he thinks that he has been settling all this time. He thinks he can. Find what he wants with someone else, passion is the number one thing he is missing. But he doesn't even know what passion is unfortunately. He told the counselor that we have never had a passionate relationship. Together 22 years I find that hard to believe. Ours was not perfect but it was great imo ...
Anyway, thank you for this thread.
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Hang on Tkeybal, nothing going to wake him up but his own actions or inactions. Sounds like forced him to eel out the tunnel
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Tkeybel, don't be thrown by the passion thing. I get told she doesn't find me attractive, I'm not fun and she's not sure if she still wants to be a couple with me. If that were true, they'd run and not look back and not be caught in this limbo mess.
Passion, sex, lust, attraction and romance are all just drugs they use to create a wall between them and their issues. I read through W's diary when I was cleaning out her stuff and I can tell I am the only person she has truly loved or wanted to be with. Every other person, she was clearly in love with being in love. When you love someone unconditionally and as an equal, that other person is left as another part of the whole and in being such, they are left to deal with themselves as individuals, often for the first time in their lives.
Kids, marriage and careers often provide just enough of a barrier to keep them separate and then one day it's gone and they don't want to look inwards. They then find someone else as a drug and use it as an excuse to justify never having should have been with you in the first place, since you leave them so dry and empty feeling. When all it really is that they wanted to avoid having to look long and hard into the mirror.
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Both those comments make a lot of sense. Thank you. I am trying not to take anything he says personally and I didn't say much during the counselling. I was curious as to what he was going to say. Limbo sucks but at least he is now trying to figure it out.
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denjef, Thank you for the information on the tunnel. My attorney sent H attorney a letter "either H signs or H is going to court" yesterday. We had a decent conversation the other day, but nothing since. H is still with OW/child. No change in relationship. H - "I am not happy, miserable as a matter of fact. Stay in touch." I don't want to reach out anymore. Tired. At 3+ years, should I see any signs of change? Does the D awaken H at all? I hope you had a chance to read my topic and replies.
Lust, sex, craving - I have heard it all. H brings OW everywhere. So proud!! Gave up everything. OW in it for the $$$. She harasses me all the time. Pics of H and her at my home, texts, phone call, etc.
I don't see H ever coming back. We had a wonderful marriage and beautiful children together. I am mentally drained from it all. I moved 1000 miles away and H never once came to see me. Only tropical vacations with OW, dinners, concerts, in state trips. Takes OW everywhere we ever went.
Talk to you soon.
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Strength,
I have started reading, but I have not finished because I have been at work all day. I hope to finish your thread tonight before I go to bed as I have a 12 hour shift tomorrow. I do want to say despite what you see, believe nothing, yes it is so hard to do when it seems you are not even getting breadcrumbs thrown your way that myself and others have shared on their thread. That doesn't mean anything. What it does mean is that your husband is running fast and hard.
No one can keep up that lifestyle, and at some point the ton of bricks will fall down on his head. This OW appears to be in it for the fun, thrills, and money. Once this lifestyle dries up what will they have then? It is a torturous thing to sit back and watch the replay antics because it is cruel and selfish. I cant guarantee that he will come back to the marriage. I believe if you had a good marriage before the chances are good. Also for a man or a woman they have to feel that what they have is better in everyway than what they had to totally move on. If they don't feel that the OW/OM measures up then the cracks will start to appear as the pressure and demands they apply will not be worth the loss in the MLC/Depressed person's mind. Some people wake up sooner from the fog and some keep running.
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Den--thanks for your insights. My sister went through MLC very recently as well, but she has not articulated it as you have. There may still be some lingering denial and definitely shame in her world tho.
I'm going to MC now with my H. He told the MC that he feels anxious around me. That he has no idea how to make that stop and that is what he wants "us" to work on. Is that guilt?
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Keepingittogether. It is definitely guilt. My husband has had a hard time around me since I found out about ow. He said he feels uncomfortable around me. Why would he feel that way after 22 years? Only because I remind him of his guilt.
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I do believe he is running hard and fast. H will crash. The OW knew from the start what she was after. "I fell in love with you the first day I met you" OW. OW was H's secretary in corporation. She had one thing in mind and OW won't give up because she is living in the "palace" as she calls my home. I am very tired and sick of the game. Cant do it anymore. I need relief and my life. My family has suffered too much and our children, wives and grandchildren do not deserve this. Both children followed in his footsteps professionally and now they do not speak. I will live the rest of my life with my children. He can have OW
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T and gman. I got the no passion as well. Thank you for your post it helped a lot!!!
gman: they would run!!!
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Hi Denjef,
Thank you very much for posting about your own experience with depression, it is very helpful!
I'd love to hear your input on boundaries, truth darts, and letting the MLCer feel the full consequences of their decisions vs. not creating negativity and letting them take the lead.
Here is some background to my situation:
H has been unhappy/bored since about 2013 (possibly earlier)
2014: very secretive with his cell phone, trying to establish an EA, irritable, not a lot of interest in doing things as a couple
August 2014: ILYBINILWY speech, H said that he would move out if he could (financially) and start dating
2014/2015: I focused on H/our marriage but this didn't seem to do much; H was very stressed about his job situation, and we decided that we would move abroad if he was offered a permanent job
September 2015: H moved abroad for a job, D8 and I were supposed to follow
Three weeks later: H "ended" our marriage via email
Since then, I hear a lot of "We/I must move on to find happiness" and "My love for you has never been that strong". H comes to visit every 6 to 8 weeks for a long weekend, staying in my (formerly our) apartment to see D8. H stresses his love for D8 and says he cannot live without her in his life but doesn't contact her much between visits and seems to prefer family activities when he is here. We are quite civil to each other.
For Christmas, he is planning to come for 8 days (as he did in 2015). He also announced a week ago that he will make himself available for romantic relationships from now on (H has been dating for many months but has been telling me that he isn't; from notes I saw, there is an OW1, which H considers dumping if OW2 becomes available).
I’ve sent truth darts in the past year (e.g. happiness does not come from another person but from within oneself), and told him that I do not want a divorce but feel that I’m repeating myself. Also, I’ve been trying to follow Bilotta’s advice of not creating “against energy” for a few months now. In H’s email telling me about him “starting” to date, H also asked again how I see the situation (I haven’t replied yet). Was there anything that reached you when you were in the fog (e.g. truth darts) or was it more helpful to you when you didn’t feel any resistance from your H?
Are boundaries important for people in the tunnel so that the MLCer feels the full consequences of his actions (e.g. not celebrating Christmas together, not staying in my apartment)? I feel that I have detached quite well and can handle it emotionally that we have a lot of contact when he is here.
I’d love to hear whether anything in this respect helped you gain some clarity when you were in the tunnel.
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Interesting points.. I would aslo like to know
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Sorry about jumping in here but here's what I think.
First, this is not about you or your marriage. It's about your husband, his crisis, and what he thinks he needs to do. Anything you do that seems to get in the way of what he thinks he needs to do will be met with monster and/or will be used by him to justify what he's doing. Anything else that you do simply won't register with him because at this time you are not a part of what your husband thinks he needs in order to feel better. It's like he's indifferent about eating broccoli and you threaten to take his broccoli away. So what?
Second, boundaries are to protect you, not to influence the MLCer. It's more likely that the boundary will have a negative impact on your husband than a positive impact, especially early in the MLC. You put boundaries into place to stop the negative impact your husband's actions are having on you and your family. The only time a boundary may have a positive impact is when your husband is well into the crisis and is beginning to consider the possibility of returning. Then it might influence him by scaring him into believing that if he doesn't do something soon he could lose you. Even then, I would consider it to be a negative impact because it may cause him to return before he's ready, potentially leading to a failed return.
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When you talk about boundaries, what are you saying exactly? I moved 1000 miles away so how can I set boundaries? H is stalling D so I threatened court, and H does nothing about it. It is as though I don't exist. My H does not care about the holidays that were beautiful with family. Spending them with OW - no remorse. I am so confused with so much of the MLC. H still blames me. OMG!!!! Please explain the best way for LBS to make the MLC'er realize what they are doing and have done. 3+ years seems like there should be some changes with them.
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IMO, you can't make the MLCer see or do anything! The only thing you have control over is yourself . A lot of the advice that's given here is to live as if they're not coming back. To GAL, to heal , to mourn, to work on yourself and let them have their crisis . What they've done is between God and them and some of them never snap out of it . From all that I've been reading here , it's the LBS that have the decision in the end . Most LBS have moved on by the time they snap out of it . Some have grown and no longer fit with the MLCer when they snap out of it . Boundaries are set to keep you from going insane and spiraling... Especially for the clingers, boomerangs and the ones that don't leave home . But no matter what to say what you will and will not put up with. This is just my opinion and I truly know how devastating all of this is !
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Jumping in. I'm using boundaries, and they have helped my peace of mind.
Since I went NC as soon as I got divorced, he kept clinging ( boomerangs anytime he thinks I'll take the bait ). He has been anchor checking less and less, but he still tries. I'm in ghost mode, so the only thing that he can do is check my blog ( which he does often ). My kids are D&D so that also helps. Boundaries are best when you are strong enough to be able to follow through. Don't even think about instilling them if you're going to cave. You won't gain any ground for yourself and healing if you allow them to continue with their antics.
Remember your MLCer is going to look for chinks in your armor, so be ready. Because I have flat out refused to deal with him, the AD is now ramping things up. This to me is a sign that things aren't so great in Lala land. Does this mean that there's movement? Don't know, that's not the issue. I just know that things have calmed down on my end.
The only one you can control is you is true. And, if you get yourself under control, they can't really rattle your cage much. Focus on yourself. If they ever snap out, one of you has to be healthy. If they don't, you still need to be the healthy one. Boundaries help you to become stronger, they're not supposed to be a punishment. It's better to take care of yourself and let them do what they have to do. It's painful, but you won't have any regrets in the end.
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I have been back and forth in 17 months since BD. We've been 8.5 months apart and 8.5 months living together under one roof. I have to agree that NC works wonders on myself. She is abusive, mostly verbal but she started to graduate to physical. I'm currently 34 days NC/Dark since I left and it's for me.
The boundary is for me because I have a tendency to still look at her as a wife. In my case she lives in the family home with our sons. If I permit myself to be beaten down than what good will that serve my boys. Yes, one parent has to be healthy and I cannot be that person without the boundaries.
This whole episode in our lives is trial by error. Should I have done NC sooner. Probably. But I had to go through the fire to get where I am finally at. So I wholeheartedly agree with My3girls, I am using boundaries to maintain my peace of mind.
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Sorry about jumping in here but here's what I think.
First, this is not about you or your marriage. It's about your husband, his crisis, and what he thinks he needs to do. Anything you do that seems to get in the way of what he thinks he needs to do will be met with monster and/or will be used by him to justify what he's doing. Anything else that you do simply won't register with him because at this time you are not a part of what your husband thinks he needs in order to feel better. It's like he's indifferent about eating broccoli and you threaten to take his broccoli away. So what?
Second, boundaries are to protect you, not to influence the MLCer. It's more likely that the boundary will have a negative impact on your husband than a positive impact, especially early in the MLC. You put boundaries into place to stop the negative impact your husband's actions are having on you and your family. The only time a boundary may have a positive impact is when your husband is well into the crisis and is beginning to consider the possibility of returning. Then it might influence him by scaring him into believing that if he doesn't do something soon he could lose you. Even then, I would consider it to be a negative impact because it may cause him to return before he's ready, potentially leading to a failed return.
I totally agree with Brain and want to say, and I hope any newbies reading the boundaries and NC comments do it, whilst bearing in mind that everyone's stories are different, their marriage, their personalities and their MLC experience.......
So when you read this stuff please remember that and do what your instincts tell you is the right thing to do for your MLC'er and your situation.
As I have said a number of times, it is my opinion that there are distinct personality types and if your MLC'er is someone who has low self esteem, hates confrontation and is very insecure, all NC does is breaks any chance of communication in the future.
Now if your MLC'er is a bit a a narcissist or very sure of themselves, then NC can work because nothing will make them stop contacting because they have a believe they are more important than anything.....
NC is fine if you need a break from this, if they are monstering, if you feel you cant cope BUT if you keep it up and your MLC'er is a low confidence type before MLC you may also find, they then think you have given up on them, that maybe they don't deserve you anymore, or they should just leave you to find someone else....
So whereas I think you should leave them alone as much as possible, I also feel you shouldn't let the contact drop completely.......
In my sitch my H started out as clinging boomerang but 7 months in, due to OW pressure he dropped contact and ever since we have gone as much as 3 months without talking (we don't have kids so there is very little reason to talk about day to day things) BUT on my therapists advice I have occasionally contacted him (when there has been something relevant) and it has lead to some very good touch and goes with very revealing information which I have documented....but in the main I think its good to let them get on with it, but not to the point you move in complete opposite directions...........
just my opinion
BTW Def thank you so much for your insights there were bits that particularly hit home for me in my situation currently. I have done a huge amount of research on this and collated a big post on what previous MLC'ers have said about the fog, tunnel and their journey but new insights and experiences are always so good to read.....
And I totally agree with what you said about Lettinggo's posts, I found them last year and I totally agree with you on how amazing they are.
She was a really gutsy woman with some great observations and I have mentioned her several times in my posts.....I don't know how her story ended but If anyone deserved a happy ending she did.
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Hmm, boundaries, I will share what I felt during my depression. My H tried to put boundaries up because I was hurting him and he kept reaching out and hoping for different results, something positive from me and I just couldn't give it to him. Honestly, in the beginning when he tried to go NC, and just detach it just didn't work because I didn't care, I was happy when he didn't call, didn't come by as it relieved the pressure off of me and I didn't have to tell him I didn't want a relationship. I was happy in my ignorant bliss and doing whatever I wanted to do. He would always break his own boundaries though after weeks go by and not a peep from me because again I just didn't give a rat's a$$. I didn't know that is what he was doing but clearly looking back he was trying to protect himself.
Boundaries can be a good thing, just make sure you are prepared for whatever may come from enforcing boundaries because you may not get a positive response from it.
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Handpuppets,
Towards the end of my depression, I did reach out to him more. Despite what we LBS think, when they are ready to try to repair the damage they will indeed come forth to let their desire to come back to the marriage be known. Just as much as I shut him down and treated him like he had the plague, I was also quick to let him know I still loved him and wanted to work on the marriage when the depression lifted. It was gradual though, at first I asked if he wanted to come over with me and the kids to watch tv, then I remember making up another excuse all kid related at first. I was testing him to see how receptive he was. Then one night I asked if he wanted to stay over. He asked me to stay over his place instead.
He was unsure of what was happening because I turned him down left and right every chance I got. He also by then was dealing with MLC and in replay. He did all the things I did to him, withdraw, come close,withdraw, disappear, and get clingy when he thinks I am going to move on. If your spouse is doing these things then they have some awareness of what they are doing. They also may not want to lose you and have not made their mind up about the other person. Sometimes they may even be like me, entertaining someone else for pure fun and selfishness but know deep down they belong with you and will return home at some point. It is better for them to leave as to not hurt you anymore than
Wanted to say thank you for responding to my question [originally posted to UM's thread and your response copied here]. I appreciate you sharing your experiences on both sides of the coin.
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denjef,
I've been at this for 4yrs now. And I have a serious problem.
I don't see her as human anymore. I see no redeeming qualities in her....
Sucks. I loved her. Adored her. I saw things in her that she couldn't see in herself. Now? I can't imagine she possesses any thing I would want in a woman/friend/acquaintance.
What can I do? I have no interest in any contact with her...... She has convinced me she can be nothing but vile and destructive....
I know it is depression. I know it is FOO issues.
I can't imagine. any situation. to act like her. to do what she has done. her behavior cannot be justified in any twisted universe.......
If I am going to be civil with this person. What do I need to know?
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Den, thanks for clarification on NC. Mine didn't care either, and I've found that going NC early saved me a lot of pain. Would I recommend it? Depends on the situation. I have always believed that they really don't care if we contact them or not.
Willitgetbetter said the same thing you did about not caring when she went through the tunnel. I think it's safe to say that there's a little bit of a debate among LBSERS, but you have at least validated my decision to stay NC. He's the one that makes contact. I just respond. It works best for me. I don't allow myself to be drawn in to his madness. If he emerged one day, fine. Either way I'm good. Im doing quite well on my own.
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My3girls,
Couldn't have said it better! NC and boundaries are truly for the LBS emotional wellbeing. If you are enforcing boundaries and NC hoping that would wake the MLC up, most of you will be sadly mistaken. I did not go NC on my H because I knew from my own experience he would be happy if I did so as that would relieve his guilt. I chose to not initiate contact but respond to his. I backed way off and he started pursuing.
Denjef31
Denjef31
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Thank you, denjef and everyone else who did, for sharing your perspectives on boundaries. So, I guess there is nothing I can do at the moment to reach my MLCer, I'll "just" need to give it time, heal/GAL, and see what happens. Thanks again, denjef, for sharing your experience.
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Thank you, denjef and everyone else who did, for sharing your perspectives on boundaries. So, I guess there is nothing I can do at the moment to reach my MLCer, I'll "just" need to give it time, heal/GAL, and see what happens. Thanks again, denjef, for sharing your experience.
It's all you can do. Just focus on you and do what you need to do for you. GAL and keep moving forward. Do whatever it is you need to do to heal.
For me it was going NC early. It was a boundary for me and letting him live with his choices. It was better for me and my kids this way. He now lives on and island, so he's not concerned about any of what's going on. Peace of mind is more important for us right now.
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My bd was 20 months ago. He moved out the last time 1 year ago. He was a clinger at first and now he is a vanisher. Lives with the ow. 2 weeks ago i found out that our d12 had been cutting herself to deal with the pain from all this. She called him to let him know. His complete lack of empathy and caring shocked the hell out of me. I do not contact him. I let him do that. Sometimes it goes on for months at a time. My wuestion is does nc aloow them to detach like the lbs is supposed to?
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Bluerose, I believe for many of these MLCers described on the board something has gone wrong in the region of the brain where empathy, impulse regulation, personality, and other critical emotional functions are regulated.
So I think the MLCer is not so much "detached" as "impaired," as you witnessed with your husband's reactions to your daughter.
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Bluerose, that is terrible.. please get help for your daughter. :'(
I agree, empathy and all of those other functions just shut down. I think that is due in part to the mania. Anger also seems to drive it as well as euphoria. I can vaguely remember what that was like, but I was teenager, dealing with abuse from my mom.
I guess around BD #2, W discovered she was pregnant and between shame, guilt, anger and the flip side of that, she thought she was going to live some new life with OM and not look back. The absolute lack of empathy for our son was appalling. It takes a lot of guts to watch your spouse act like that towards your children and keep your cool.
What does FOO mean?
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What does FOO mean?
Gman, it means Family Of Origin.
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She has an appointment with a counselor on monday. After she told me it was like a weight had been lifted off of her. I caught this very early on ,thank god. Her cuts are pretty much healed over. When she called him to tell him, she confronted him about other things too. Lilke about having a gf when your married, not really being there when hse did spend time with her. She had him on speaker phone so i heard everything. It was like in his mind he believes that he and d12 have a great relationship. That he really is this great dad to her. She told him that when they were together he wasnt there, he barely talks to her. He responded by saying that she sounds like her mother and is making it out to sound like he cares more about his friends than his kids. I have never said this to him. Guilt? I believe so and lots of it. Shen she told him about the cutting she was crying. He responded by saying" babygirl, dont do that." There was no emotion in his voice. He then asked her if she wanted to spend time with him. She said no, i dont. He said call me later when i get home from work. It blew my mind. After d12 hung up, she said that she felt like he brushed her off and doesnt care. She has decided not to have a relationship with him anymore. This happened 2 weeks ago this Saturday. He had not called to check on this little girl at all. This is not my husband. My boys, both over 18, want to physically beat on him for his treatment of this situation. They have both felt this way for quite a while now. This just intensified their feelings. My h was never an uncaring and cold coward before. This is why i was wondering about the detachment on their part. I also wonder if the ow helps sway their thinking. Controlling the situation without them being aware that rhey are being controlled. Little by little you know.
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I'm so sorry for your little girl. MLC brings more pain than any child should have to bear.
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Blue,
I'm so sorry, the pain caused by a MLC just resonates through everyone that cares about them. And they don't have a clue, they are in so much internal pain they can't see past it.
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Its a shame that they dont have a clue. Once again its all about them and their pain. Not a second thought about the pain that they are causing the ones that love them
Denjef31,
I have a question for you. My h and i didnt see each other for almost 8 months. Only texted a couple of times in that period. He made contact with me. He wanted to come and talk to me on august 7. He insisted on a face to face. It was almost like he needed to see me. He told me that he was not happy, didnt desire the ow, didnt like her kid,had been wrestling with his feelings for me for months, thought about me, missed me, and wanted to work things out. I asked him of he wold have problem with stopping all contact with the ow. He said not at all. He fid not hesitate when he said this
A few days later he was upset with me for calling the wjote ugly and he said that i jad not changed because i was still kudging people. He was also upset that i told the kids anouy working things out. A month later, which was the last time i seen or heard from him, he told that he had a friendship with her , takes her everywhere and they never run out of things to talk about. Btw, they live together. He told me i would have divorce papers in 2 weeks . When he left 2 hours later he said that he again doesmt know what hw wants. How much of this should i believe?
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Bluerose (and I think Den will agree with me but if not, she'll say so)
Believe exactly NONE of what he says.... Because of the emotional tornado inside (or the void - and natures frenzied attempt to fill it) what he says at time <x> may and likely will be different than at time <x+1>
Believe NONE of what you hear and only about 50% of what you see...
There are SO many stories here of Mid-Lifers that have filed, only to do exactly NOTHING about pushing it through or getting it done. ...
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Bluerose, It all sounds exactly like what my H said to me. "OW finishes my sentences. We are so attached" I filed for D and H has dragged his feet for so long. I am better off when I don't talk to H because he is always angry and miserable. I agree with everyone. Don't believe much of anything H says. They are very twisted as my H calls it.
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Bluerose, keep in mind that they love to get a reaction out of you. That's what the whole, "everything about her is so great" nonsense. Anything that makes you feel like the OP is better than you somehow. I agree with Ursa, take most of it with a grain of salt. My lawyer and I had to file, and push all the dates for the divorce.
He's now living with the AD, won't honor the divorce or custody agreements, is anchor checking and trying touch and goes. Trying to manipulate my kids by provoking them. Still expects me to take care of the things that he's supposed to, etc... We've been divorced for a year this month, and he's still playing games. Remember what RCR says, a divorce is just a piece of paper to many of these MLCers. It's true in my case, hence the boundaries.
Consider the source when he tells you things: he's not trustworthy, so don't trust him.
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Another perspective is that he's coming out of Limerence is vacillating between you and her. During this time, it's important to be still, zip your lips, and watch what they do (action) and not what they say.
IMHO, disparaging her (or him) in front of him or the kids, no matter how tempting or deserved, won't help you in this battle.
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When he does bring up divorce i dont even acknowledge it. He has been saying divorce for nearly 2 years now. On the tare occasion he does talk to me i dont usually say to much. I was mostly wondering about hid feelings that he expressed towards me. If he was possibly having a moment of clarity and was really feeling those things at that time.
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Bluerose,
My W has said the same to me. They complete each other's sentences. He gets her corny jokes. They never stop talking. Ugh, ugh, ugh. I have to agree with the others. The few times, maybe 3 in total, that I have taken a shot at OM, her face lights up. She feeds on it. It's not easy to take it, but it is a losing battle.
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I'm always reminded of that 80's movie.. War Games.. The best way to win is not to play the game.
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you are so right about that Gman. This has been one of my biggest challenges. I am very competitive so to just sick back and watch defies all logic to me!
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Bluerose,
My W has said the same to me. They complete each other's sentences. He gets her corny jokes. They never stop talking. Ugh, ugh, ugh. I have to agree with the others. The few times, maybe 3 in total, that I have taken a shot at OM, her face lights up. She feeds on it. It's not easy to take it, but it is a losing battle.
They're looking for any opportunity to compare you, and feel like there's a "love triangle". Just remember they feel empowered by seeing you suffer.
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Mine came up with the strangest thing to try to get me.
He said the girl didn't drink.
Now the Leaver is an alcoholic who hasn't drank in about 20 years. I'm a social drinker but he often would say to me, "what's that like to have one drink?" b/c I really could take it or leave it.
So he said she didn't drink to make me think that's what she had over me (b/c except being younger which even that is not better, she doesn't compare in any category). Honestly at the time it worked. I thought that's why he left b/c I sometimes drank. Looking back, he was really digging for an excuse, b/c that one was just plain stupid. His mother thought I was amazing b/c we didn't have alcohol in the house, again I could take it or leave it. Was never an issue.
Then I heard otherwise. Actually, she's a big drinker.
I swear he made it up to make me believe they had something in common. It was a complete lie.
Even stranger a few months ago when I met with the Leaver (which is rare), he leaned in like he was telling me a secret and whispered, "I had a drink. I can't help it, I have been obsessing about drinking".
So I guess now they do have something in common. :P
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I'm always reminded of that 80's movie.. War Games.. The best way to win is not to play the game.
!!!
They're looking for any opportunity to compare you, and feel like there's a "love triangle". Just remember they feel empowered by seeing you suffer.
Yes very insightful. At one point last spring MLCer threatens me, "OW is going to be in S7's life ... and in your life!" I told him actually I did not care to meet her. He was infuriated. He demanded to know if I could not see a time when OW and I might be friends; I told him no. Then, outraged, he wanted to know if I could not imagine a time when "OW might be friends with your new partner."
When I told him no that was a separate relationship he was even more outraged. It was hard not to laugh. His fantasies extend to OW and my future partner. At the time I was just thinking that it would be awkward and painful but now I feel it would be embarrassing.
All to say ... I think initially there is a lot of power in having an OW/OM but it is only powerful if, as gman writes, the LBS participates.
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I by no way participate. None of our children have met her. He was upset that i will not let d12 go to his house. I told him my d12 will not ever be around your ow. He didnt like that and that is when he said that i would have divorce papers in 2 weeks. Realalistically, there is nothing stopping him from doing so, but d12 seen us kissing and said she would tell the ow.
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The infatuation and pull of the OW/OM is so intoxicating at first. You don't see it at first but you find yourself captivated and acting like a high strung teenager waiting for the next fix. I found myself on cloud 9 with the OM, and it was not because he looked better, had more than H. He just came at a time when I was at a low point and vulnerable, he said and did all the right things. Nothing H could have said to turn me away from the path that I was on with OM. When the fog/depression started to lift I still thought OM was a nice person but definitely not anyone I wanted to be with, or even pursue any further. So just like that I cut it off, no desire to hang out or be with him.
I just instantly looked at OM differently, same things that made me giddy, I now would roll my eyes at him and cut him off mid sentence. The interest/infatuation period came in fast and hard and left pretty much the same way. My H didn't need to do or say anything for this to happen it just did. So for those of you who said you realize there is nothing you can do but let it be you are absolutely correct. Time will fade these temporary feelings that feel so real to us at the time. I use to daydream about marrying this guy and what it would be like to move away with him. The pull of the truth kept pulling me back where I would think of H and I would go be with H intimately then run back to OM for my emotional fix.
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My ex would play me and the OW against each other. I used to take the bait. He knew how to grind my gears. He would use my son. He would say 'If you're not going to be friends with me, I want our son to meet OW'.
At first I would reply 'Over my dead body' and other such rhetoric that would start an argument and make him feel like he was in a drama. Then I realised I had to change me tact, so I would say 'I can't stop you from introducing our son to OW, but I would ask you to consider our son's feelings'. This was in the early days when I couldn't even look at him, let alone consider being his friend.
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Mine didn't tell the kids about the AD, posted everything on FB. That's how they found out, then had the nerve to not tell them until they went to visit that they were living together. Kids texted me the whole time. I didn't ask or interfere in any way. In fact, I've never acknowledged her existence. This seems to trigger both him and her.
I think it's amazing the amount of time they both expend trying to get my attention through the kids. It's not working. So now, he's a sad sack that's trying to get the kids to feel sorry for him. He's broke and living with the AD who likes to have fun. I guess the party's over.
It's crazy how much drama and chaos they need to get through the day. Not able to use me and the kids any longer.
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Denjef,
I get the infatuation. My W has described it exactly as you have stated. It is extremely frustrating. It was a 1 month relationship and here I am 17 months later. He is long gone but not for her. It was not physical.
I fight with myself constantly trying to rationalize this moment in time. I so want to have it out with her but I know it will be pointless. My Dr tells me to be patient. Time, time, time. Thats what he says. Eventually she will explain herself? Or do we act like it never happened ? I am trying to rise above this and be a better person. We are always left with more questions.
In the end, it just doesn't seem fair. That is my problem.
Thanks for sharing. I appreciate it.
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Den,
Thank you so much for all your insights. It really has helped me, to understand what you felt (or didn't feel!), and why you did what you did. I am sure it is tough to post all this and strip yourself in front of all of us, but it has made a difference.
I do believe that the OW doesn't mean anything to him, just not sure he knows that. And that's the part that is hardest
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Hang in there Watcher, we're all having our patience sorely tested. I'm not standing ( enjoying being single ), but it would be nice if he wanted to be a real father again. I don't think I'll want him back, I'm loving the mirror work. All of his siblings have gone through A MLC so... My mom did when I was in my early 20's, so I hope my kids don't go through one.
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Denjef .. My h has been at this 2 and a half years plus. And looks like he'll never come through his fog ! He's a vanisher as such .. We've just had a baby granddaughter and I was wondering if big events like this permeates the fog anytime and makes them think. He still seems so into ow. just seems to want the divorce over and done with .. X
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Denjef,
I get the infatuation. My W has described it exactly as you have stated. It is extremely frustrating. It was a 1 month relationship and here I am 17 months later. He is long gone but not for her. It was not physical.
I fight with myself constantly trying to rationalize this moment in time. I so want to have it out with her but I know it will be pointless. My Dr tells me to be patient. Time, time, time. Thats what he says. Eventually she will explain herself? Or do we act like it never happened ? I am trying to rise above this and be a better person. We are always left with more questions
In the end, it just doesn't seem fair. That is my problem.
Thanks for sharing. I appreciate it.
There is no rationalizing it. A sane person would not do the things a depressed/mlc person does period. Is it fair? NO. Yet this is the task we have been assigned. No one asks to be depressed and the spouses don't ask to be abandoned or cheated on. Honestly, from my own experience when the fog is deep we do not see that what we are doing is wrong, we understand you are hurt by it, but we feel entitled to the things we are doing. In our minds we feel we deserve to be happy, and if that happiness means we end our marriage so be it we wish you well and hope we can be friends, but we are not going to stick around just because you are hurting. That's how I felt and that is how most depressed/mlc people feel. This is why you will see the running/withdrawing. We feel if we stay away the spouse will eventually get over us, move on, find someone else and go be happy like we are.
That's why patience is needed. That's why everyone says time is your friend. With time the fog will lift, the addicting infatuative feelings fade, and the reality of what we have done, the people we have hurt, and what truly matters start to take over and we start to try to make amends, rebuild torn down relationships, contemplate returning to the marriage. Your grace and forgiveness is what determines if they will just seek another relationship or try to work things out. Your wife Watcher is struggling and still fighting inner demons. This was never about the OM, and that's why she has not made a decision either way. She is stuck in her head. She still doesn't know what to do about her life, so she wallows in self pity. At some point you will have to shake things up a bit to help bring her through. I do not know if that time is now, but there will come a time if she continues on this path of nothingness.
I am pretty sure she is doing what I did for 3 years, lived in my head, withdrawn from my real life, and my real family. My feelings of infatuation only lasted about 6 months but I still struggled and was stuck for another 2.5 years. The ending of the affair is just the beginning in my opinion. You don't see progress, but it is happening internally and mentally but very slowly.
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Den, your first paragraph hits the nail on the head . Just seeing it in written words is easier to understand where H is coming from rather than seeing it from my point of view all the time . The funny thing is I know it but just seeing it written helps tremendously ! Thank you for sharing .... It's comforting because my H isn't sharing so when you share your experiences I feel he's talking to me :-) he does share some things just not to the extent you do. And there's no doubt in my mind that what you described in your first paragraph is exactly what's going on with H . I am praying that God touches him that he at least has the courage to separate from OW when the fog starts lifting . My H has insecurities that are deep-seeded and his normal MO is to keep running or to settle because he's too embarrassed or doesn't feel good enough . I have always been there for him in the past so I'm gonna continue to be patient and be the lighthouse . They're just moments that I get in my head where I think he's actually happier without me . I know is not happier at least not what he thought it would be I can see it written on his face but you know how cycling goes . Gonna keep moving forward . I've been enjoying my mirror work and GAL . Thanks again for all of your insight it truly has helped me tremendously !! God bless
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I am pretty sure she is doing what I did for 3 years, lived in my head, withdrawn from my real life, and my real family. My feelings of infatuation only lasted about 6 months but I still struggled and was stuck for another 2.5 years. The ending of the affair is just the beginning in my opinion. You don't see progress, but it is happening internally and mentally but very slowly.
Thanks for this. I think this is the same for my wife. I'm pretty sure my wife's infatuation only lasted for about 6 months but it's been 2 1/2 years now and she's still with the om even though she's mentioned changing that situation several times over the past 2 years. It's very frustrating. During the last 6 to 12 months she's started reconnecting with my brothers and sister and their families and with her family and with our children and grandchildren and she FB messages me occasionally about trivial stuff so I think she's making progress.
Dec. 9th will be two years since she filed for divorce. No minor children involved, just splitting up our stuff, what the lawyers call an easy divorce. Last summer I had my lawyer tell her lawyer that I need to know what she wants from the divorce settlement. A week or two later we sat down and I helped her figure out what to tell her lawyer she wants after she came to me and admitted she doesn't know what she wants. She left more than 3 months ago to give her lawyer the list we came up with yet I still haven't heard anything from her lawyer. She has everything she needs to end our marriage anytime she wants, yet nothing has happened. I went through a similar although less severe identity crisis myself so I sympathize with her and kind of understand what she's going through but this waiting is mind-destroying.
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I am staying away from H. I live 1000 miles from home. I have no idea what is going on with H and OW except that they are still together 2 1/2+ years. I don't believe H is anywhere near leaving OW. With the 40 year age difference H is on such a high and madly in love. They talk about M and babies. I can't imagine starting a family in my 60's. Grandchildren are this part of my life. I cry for H and will be in love with H forever, but I have no choice but to stay away. H shows no interest in me or the children at this point. I am 1 year into D and it still goes on. I have no answers anymore. I have lost all hope.
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Denjef,
Thank you very much. Your response knocked me out and the value is immeasurable. I truly appreciate you for taking the time to respond.
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Den, Your words help so much. What you write makes me realize it is not me or the children. We had a wonderful M. We are at the 3+ year point but there is no change with H/OW. I have no idea where H is in the MLC but H life seems to be going well. The destruction and trying to rebuild are the hardest thing I have ever experienced in my life. My H now has cancer, but OW there with H. Does this change the MLC and bring it to a deeper level? I would think H would want his family at this point.
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Strength,
That is not love, that is fog talking. What 60 year old would contemplate starting over having a baby and getting married again when they already have a family unless they are running? Your H is deep in replay and you probably are wise to stay far away right now because what you will witness during this stage will not be pretty. I do not mean to give anyone any false hope I truly don't because some spouses will not wake up if ever until it is too late. I can only share that the 3 years that I was depressed life pretty much passed me by in record speed as time appeared to stand still. I cant believe I was in mental anguish and torment for that long, and that I tormented and had my H in limbo for over 3 years but I did.
What we have to understand is that the marriage, and all responsibilities concerning our lives as we know it has been put on hold, put on the shelf to be figured out at a later time when they are able to process and understand it. They are not able to make any real decisions right now so they don't. I know you probably are thinking but they made a decision to leave, and they made a decision to have an affair. This is both conscious and unconscious. If you have never experienced an addiction it would be hard to describe for you to get a true understanding of what it is like to know what you are doing is wrong and hurting the people you love but to feel compelled to do it anyway.
Think of having an outer body experience where you see yourself doing things, you want to stop, you don't want to hurt your spouse, your kids, but there you are hurting the people you swore to protect and love. It is like watching a dream of yourself doing things you would never do in real life...yet it is real life. Some people will block out these things because the reality of what they have done is too great. I blocked it out for a while and never addressed it or talked about it with anyone. Finally I felt a great need to talk about it, tell H what I was thinking and feeling during this time as he doesn't know anything about mlc and he didn't know I was depressed. I did a good job of fooling him and he believed I just fell out of love with him and wanted to start over with someone else.
I suffered from extreme guilt, H often says he never knew I felt anything as I did a good job of hiding my true self and feelings, and just running from him. Believe me despite what you see and hear from your spouse, they are not getting any real peace or joy. They stay up many nights thinking about you, they are tormented by the decision to leave you but they feel it is for the best (for now). They question there decision everyday and some are very close everyday to coming back home, but they know they are not ready so they stay with the OP when they know they are not happy and they know they have no future with this person.
Sometimes the decision to keep running and having you in limbo is about their own personal embarrassment for what they have done, lies they have told, the people they have hurt. They worry about what people will say and think if they come back, what will your family and friends think? Are your changes real, will it be different and can it last this time? They have to feel what they have with you is better than what they have with the OW/OM. The fear of losing you has to be greater than the desire to keep running. Until they get to this point all bets are off so you must put yourself in a new light so they can see you with a fresh pair of eyes. Hence giving this time and getting a life is very important if you intend to stand for your marriage.
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This has been fascinating reading and so helpful to understand what might be going on with my H. I keep re-reading it again and again.
I have a question. Once the fog starts to lift a little and you acknowledge something, even something small, do you ever second guess that acknowledgement or does it stick and you build on it from there?
My H has been exhibiting some behavior that seems to indicate he might be trying to make amends for some of his wrong doing. Just little sporadic things. He has not verbally said anything to me indicating he is sorry or asked to come home. I am afraid to have any hope for these actions for fear that he might retract it all at a moments notice and go backwards to Monster mode.
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I am pretty sure she is doing what I did for 3 years, lived in my head, withdrawn from my real life, and my real family. My feelings of infatuation only lasted about 6 months but I still struggled and was stuck for another 2.5 years. The ending of the affair is just the beginning in my opinion. You don't see progress, but it is happening internally and mentally but very slowly.
Thanks for this. I think this is the same for my wife. I'm pretty sure my wife's infatuation only lasted for about 6 months but it's been 2 1/2 years now and she's still with the om even though she's mentioned changing that situation several times over the past 2 years. It's very frustrating. During the last 6 to 12 months she's started reconnecting with my brothers and sister and their families and with her family and with our children and grandchildren and she FB messages me occasionally about trivial stuff so I think she's making progress.
Dec. 9th will be two years since she filed for divorce. No minor children involved, just splitting up our stuff, what the lawyers call an easy divorce. Last summer I had my lawyer tell her lawyer that I need to know what she wants from the divorce settlement. A week or two later we sat down and I helped her figure out what to tell her lawyer she wants after she came to me and admitted she doesn't know what she wants. She left more than 3 months ago to give her lawyer the list we came up with yet I still haven't heard anything from her lawyer. She has everything she needs to end our marriage anytime she wants, yet nothing has happened. I went through a similar although less severe identity crisis myself so I sympathize with her and kind of understand what she's going through but this waiting is mind-destroying.
A person that is sure about what they want doesn't hesitate or stall. I do not think your wife is sure about the divorce anymore. I wouldn't push or ask any questions about the status of the divorce unless that is what you want. Yes you are limbo, but she appears to be processing and thinking things thru from what you have shared. Just as we don't hesitate to leave, tell you we are not inlove with you, we wouldn't hesitate to divorce you either. Stop thinking about what she is doing and think about what she hasn't done and that may give you more clues. She admitted she doesn't know what she wants so that can be interpreted as she has not closed the door on you or the marriage yet. She is starting to remember good memories, the type of man you are. Let her continue if you have it in you to hold on.
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Den, I will keep in my heart everything you said today. I am strong for the family but I miss our life together. My H is doing everything he said he would never do. I have so little hope for H to ever want me again. Even with the pain and betrayal I also think of H daily. I am waiting for final D to come through. H has stalled it for a year. H told me once "I don't want the D. I love you" but nothing changed. I cannot even begin to put my arms around what MLC'ers go through. I cannot imagine abandoning my family and children. I pray constantly for God to do the right thing for the M but it never happens. I miss our home that I put my heart and soul into for 40 years. Now 24yr old OW is living our life and she has let me know "you have nothing and I have it all" along with pictures of H and OW to hurt me more. I am rebuilding my life but always hold in the back of my mind, one day being back home. I know it is unrealistic and selfish. Everyone tells me to let H go forever. Until death do I part in my heart and soul. I know I am being unreasonable about the expectations. Last week H told me he was miserable and twisted. But H also says "I am in love with OW"
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This has been fascinating reading and so helpful to understand what might be going on with my H. I keep re-reading it again and again.
I have a question. Once the fog starts to lift a little and you acknowledge something, even something small, do you ever second guess that acknowledgement or does it stick and you build on it from there?
My H has been exhibiting some behavior that seems to indicate he might be trying to make amends for some of his wrong doing. Just little sporadic things. He has not verbally said anything to me indicating he is sorry or asked to come home. I am afraid to have any hope for these actions for fear that he might retract it all at a moments notice and go backwards to Monster mode.
When the fog started to lift, I started looking at H thinking about if I could repair the relationship but I hadn't made a decision either way. I was watching him from afar very closely but I was making small gestures to build a bridge towards reconnecting if I should decide I wanted to. I knew I had to start somewhere and figure out the rest later. Once I made my decision that I wanted him in my life as my H and the fear of losing him terrified me I made my desire known. After some time of I told him I wanted to return to the marriage and I would be committed to him and making it work.
It starts off small though, you are being tested right now it sounds like to see if you are open or reluctant. Let him keep coming towards you, no pressure, no R talk. This is the time where we get antsy for a commitment but refrain from it or you will scare him off. H did this, and I just ran the opposite direction every time until I was ready to face him again even though I knew I probably wanted to be back in the marriage his eagerness prolonged my making any movement.
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Den, I will keep in my heart everything you said today. I am strong for the family but I miss our life together. My H is doing everything he said he would never do. I have so little hope for H to ever want me again. Even with the pain and betrayal I also think of H daily. I am waiting for final D to come through. H has stalled it for a year. H told me once "I don't want the D. I love you" but nothing changed. I cannot even begin to put my arms around what MLC'ers go through. I cannot imagine abandoning my family and children. I pray constantly for God to do the right thing for the M but it never happens. I miss our home that I put my heart and soul into for 40 years. Now 24yr old OW is living our life and she has let me know "you have nothing and I have it all" along with pictures of H and OW to hurt me more. I am rebuilding my life but always hold in the back of my mind, one day being back home. I know it is unrealistic and selfish. Everyone tells me to let H go forever. Until death do I part in my heart and soul. I know I am being unreasonable about the expectations. Last week H told me he was miserable and twisted. But H also says "I am in love with OW"
How long has H been involved with this girl? Yes I said girl, because it is infatuation Strength. Okay a 2x4 coming. Stop this! Stop thinking how you are thinking. You sound like a victim. Yes you are, but you must not allow anyone to show pity on you, or play the victim role. When you do this you are giving this little girl WAY MORE POWER over you then she deserves! No one wants to be with or come back to someone out of pity or a feeling of obligation. If you are in anyway looking how you sound then you have a lot of work ahead of you.
My H showed and told me in every since of the way that he was wallowing in self pity and it was not attractive to me at all. It pushed me further away from him honestly. Stop looking back at what was, and give him a reason to think about what could be! What worked in the past will not and cannot work in the future. Now I am not saying compete for him, because you shouldn't have to but you do have to show him you are not sitting around twiddling your thumbs mourning the loss of him or what was. You will not be able to make any meaningful changes with him right now until this girl lets her guard down and he begins to see everything is not what it seems with her. You will have to start over as friends first as he is turned completely away from you right now. Don't force anything just do as you say you are...let it be and you continue on your path what is meant to be will be.
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Strength, I would suggest you believe what Denjef is writing. Her descriptions of what it's like for the MLCer are the most realistic I've ever read. There is hope as long as you are able to hold on. Your husband is not in love with the om, he's in love with the idea of being young again and being able to start over. One day he'll wake up and the thought of raising a young child again will horrify him. Hopefully this will happen before he actually has a young child to raise. When the ow sends you pictures and taunts you she's displaying her insecurity. I'm sure she knows how tenuous her hold is over your husband and I would bet her plan is to solidify her hold over him by driving you away. I'm sure she believes that once you're no longer an option, your husband will no longer have any choice but to stay with her. Well, screw her. The best way for you to respond to her is to ignore her and continue to do what you're doing. Your standing is driving her crazy and eventually your husband will recognize her craziness. You're in my prayers. You chose the right name because strength is what you're gong to continue to need. This takes a God-awful long time and standing is hard.
Think of having an outer body experience where you see yourself doing things, you want to stop, you don't want to hurt your spouse, your kids, but there you are hurting the people you swore to protect and love. It is like watching a dream of yourself doing things you would never do in real life...yet it is real life. Some people will block out these things because the reality of what they have done is too great. I blocked it out for a while and never addressed it or talked about it with anyone. Finally I felt a great need to talk about it, tell H what I was thinking and feeling during this time as he doesn't know anything about mlc and he didn't know I was depressed. I did a good job of fooling him and he believed I just fell out of love with him and wanted to start over with someone else.
I suffered from extreme guilt, H often says he never knew I felt anything as I did a good job of hiding my true self and feelings, and just running from him. Believe me despite what you see and hear from your spouse, they are not getting any real peace or joy. They stay up many nights thinking about you, they are tormented by the decision to leave you but they feel it is for the best (for now). They question there decision everyday and some are very close everyday to coming back home, but they know they are not ready so they stay with the OP when they know they are not happy and they know they have no future with this person.
This is the best response I've read yet to those who think the MLCer knows what they're doing and could choose not to do it. I've never thought my wife was doing this to hurt me or my family and I've never felt like she could just stop doing what she's doing. I do believe it's a compulsion, as strong as and perhaps stronger than an addiction.
Thank you, Denjef, for responding to my post about my situation. I know you're right about my wife's hesitation which is why I don't say anything about the divorce. My belief is that if I say or do anything about it she will probably respond by running, that is, by moving forward with it. Waiting is hard but I do my best not to let her see how much I'm struggling.
I have a personal question for Denjef. How long has it been since you believe you came out of the fog and how well do you remember what happened during that time. I ask this because I only experienced the fog for maybe 18 months and it's been almost 4 years since I feel I started coming out of it and I still find that something I read on here will trigger a memory of something I had forgotten I thought or did during that 18 months. Thankfully, I know for sure that no memories of an ow will be surfacing because I'm certain I didn't go there.
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Strength,
She says that she has everything and you have nothing. That is not true. You have the dignity and self tespect of someone who can hold their head high by knowing you are not the one who is sleeping with a married man. She cannot. You have everything , she has nothing.
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Strength, I would suggest you believe what Denjef is writing. Her descriptions of what it's like for the MLCer are the most realistic I've ever read. There is hope as long as you are able to hold on. Your husband is not in love with the om, he's in love with the idea of being young again and being able to start over. One day he'll wake up and the thought of raising a young child again will horrify him. Hopefully this will happen before he actually has a young child to raise. When the ow sends you pictures and taunts you she's displaying her insecurity. I'm sure she knows how tenuous her hold is over your husband and I would bet her plan is to solidify her hold over him by driving you away. I'm sure she believes that once you're no longer an option, your husband will no longer have any choice but to stay with her. Well, screw her. The best way for you to respond to her is to ignore her and continue to do what you're doing. Your standing is driving her crazy and eventually your husband will recognize her craziness. You're in my prayers. You chose the right name because strength is what you're gong to continue to need. This takes a God-awful long time and standing is hard.
Think of having an outer body experience where you see yourself doing things, you want to stop, you don't want to hurt your spouse, your kids, but there you are hurting the people you swore to protect and love. It is like watching a dream of yourself doing things you would never do in real life...yet it is real life. Some people will block out these things because the reality of what they have done is too great. I blocked it out for a while and never addressed it or talked about it with anyone. Finally I felt a great need to talk about it, tell H what I was thinking and feeling during this time as he doesn't know anything about mlc and he didn't know I was depressed. I did a good job of fooling him and he believed I just fell out of love with him and wanted to start over with someone else.
I suffered from extreme guilt, H often says he never knew I felt anything as I did a good job of hiding my true self and feelings, and just running from him. Believe me despite what you see and hear from your spouse, they are not getting any real peace or joy. They stay up many nights thinking about you, they are tormented by the decision to leave you but they feel it is for the best (for now). They question there decision everyday and some are very close everyday to coming back home, but they know they are not ready so they stay with the OP when they know they are not happy and they know they have no future with this person.
This is the best response I've read yet to those who think the MLCer knows what they're doing and could choose not to do it. I've never thought my wife was doing this to hurt me or my family and I've never felt like she could just stop doing what she's doing. I do believe it's a compulsion, as strong as and perhaps stronger than an addiction.
Thank you, Denjef, for responding to my post about my situation. I know you're right about my wife's hesitation which is why I don't say anything about the divorce. My belief is that if I say or do anything about it she will probably respond by running, that is, by moving forward with it. Waiting is hard but I do my best not to let her see how much I'm struggling.
I have a personal question for Denjef. How long has it been since you believe you came out of the fog and how well do you remember what happened during that time. I ask this because I only experienced the fog for maybe 18 months and it's been almost 4 years since I feel I started coming out of it and I still find that something I read on here will trigger a memory of something I had forgotten I thought or did during that 18 months. Thankfully, I know for sure that no memories of an ow will be surfacing because I'm certain I didn't go there.
I believe my depression started late 2011, and I believe I had my awakening around June 2015. I didn't say a word to H when I had this awakening I just started inserting myself back into family things, into his life as a friend of course, and flirting. Then in January 2016 I had built up the nerve to tell him I wanted to work on our marriage. Mid February 2016 I was BD by H. Now we are in the beginning stages of reconnecting. I was in denial about my depression for a very long time despite professional telling me I was. I wanted to blame H and anybody else for my feelings of despair. I felt the strong urge early this year to come clean and own up to the things I did and the hurt I cause and ask for forgiveness. He never asked for it but I knew he would need it before we could truly rebuild.
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Den,
I agree with Brain, your insights are so helpful! My h has told me on a few occasions, he isn't sure why he's still at the other house, why he doesn't come home. I know he's miserable and lonely. But he still has to fix himself, he's nowhere near ready. As much as I want that, it's going to be when it happens, not any sooner
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He is resisting logic Stillluvhim, he is trying not to fall off the ledge. Your description is just like the article RCR wrote. He has failed and let everyone down, he mine as well make this one last thing work. Yet it will never work, so eventually he will hit his rock bottom. He is very very close but not there yet.
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Den, I have a question for you. I think you know my story pretty much and how my H always been with the touching goes and making passes and so on... Since the lightbulb went off and I've been doing my near work and GALing, actually been enjoying getting to know me again . He still comes by every week and we talk on the phone at least once a week yet we've also signed papers and he continues to move forward with OW. My question is since I've been detaching it's like my H keeps pushing and poking at me until I basically let him know it still affects me or that I miss him. It has to be in some fashion or another of my sadness. The more I resist the more it's built up inside of me until I eventually throw him a bone . After he leaves I get aggravated with myself because I just want to fake it till I make it or pretend that I'm not affected by this . Each day gets easier don't get me wrong and it's actually easier when he's not around but as soon as he comes around that's when he keeps poking at me until I let him know I still love him or etc. but what he prefers as if I'm sad . That one I do my best to keep tucked inside but then I blow once he's gone . It's very draining . Any thoughts or suggestions or possibly both . Thank you!
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Den, I have a question for you. I think you know my story pretty much and how my H always been with the touching goes and making passes and so on... Since the lightbulb went off and I've been doing my near work and GALing, actually been enjoying getting to know me again . He still comes by every week and we talk on the phone at least once a week yet we've also signed papers and he continues to move forward with OW. My question is since I've been detaching it's like my H keeps pushing and poking at me until I basically let him know it still affects me or that I miss him. It has to be in some fashion or another of my sadness. The more I resist the more it's built up inside of me until I eventually throw him a bone . After he leaves I get aggravated with myself because I just want to fake it till I make it or pretend that I'm not affected by this . Each day gets easier don't get me wrong and it's actually easier when he's not around but as soon as he comes around that's when he keeps poking at me until I let him know I still love him or etc. but what he prefers as if I'm sad . That one I do my best to keep tucked inside but then I blow once he's gone . It's very draining . Any thoughts or suggestions or possibly both . Thank you!
I think I touched on this somewhere but you are right in a weird twisted way he does get some pleasure from seeing you miserable. It lets him know you are right where he left you. He is toying with you although unintentional it is still keeping you suspended for a later date and time. What is happening is that he is involved with OW, but he is not 100% convinced she is forever. What he is convinced of is that the OW is there for now. Every time you give him a bone, you prolong and hinder both of your progress.
I know you are probably thinking it is a good thing to share with him you still love him or want him in some way. But you need to be thinking back to what has history shown you when you do this? He runs back to OW feeling confident no changes need to be done just yet. So he is happy stringing you along while seeking comforts from the OW. I am a firm believer in paving the way, but what is happening here is checking his anchor is firmly in place. STOP throwing him a bone. I did this to H for quite some time every time I got scared he may be moving on because I hadn't heard from him, or he seemed nonchalant I had to check the anchor. I would flirt, be intimate and once I was confident his feelings hadn't changed off I went to OM for my emotional highs.
This tells me and it should tell you H doesn't know what he wants but he likes the feeling he gets from OW, but he also doesn't want to let you go. Let him go completely so he can experience the real deal with this woman he is given his energy, time, and affection to. One of two things will happen. He will either gradually wake up from the fog and try to reconnect or he will continuing running and choose OW. Him choosing is better than you being in limbo. If this is within 2 years of BD I suggest you hold off on doing anything. MLC need a considerable amount of time in the pressure cooker to get fully cooked.
I faked it til I made it. I suggest you do the same, but if you are uncomfortable maybe enforce some boundaries. Be careful, boundaries doesn't work for everybody and they certainly didn't work for me. Boundaries are for you so that you don't go into a cycling frenzy like you have done in the past. I think you want to restore the marriage so I really do think you need to sit tight, and keep practicing patience and love. Look at his shenanigans as a clue as to what he may be thinking, and a clear indication of the sheer confusion that still exists in H head. He has not fully committed to OW despite what it appears. Keep faith, and stay in prayer!
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Denjef,
You describe my W perfectly. Once a month she initiated intimacy. Then she retreated everytime afterward.
In our case she too had the 6 month infatuation. She then invited me back home and there was absolutely no mention of him ever for the next 5 months. In June she relapsed. That was the anniversary month so I figured that was the trigger. My Dr did tell me that relapses were possible. It is her drug of choice.
She is in our home with the kids and I do believe they are her lifeline. Last Thanksgiving she stayed in her room. Yesterday they had dinner. I was at neither. I do see the progress and yes its slow. I can afford to let it breathe and be patient.
The overall main difference. Last fall she wanted me gone at all costs. 3 police visits to the house and attempted restraining order. This fall she is pissed that I left after her abuse. One thing that never has changed is Monster. It's been a constant.
I have been gone roughly 6 weeks. Without a doubt, if I went home today she'd march me straight to our bedroom.
It's best I stay away.
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Can we sticky this thread?
I reread it all the time when i need a boost and more great info just keeps getting added to it.
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Den, first off I had to giggle when you said shenanigans . I use that word all the time and it makes me giggle every time . Yes , I agree with you hundred percent. I guess I just needed some reassurance . Holidays are a bit tough . There's no doubt in my mind he's not swinging from the chandeliers with OW or he wouldn't be making passes at me . And if that is what he thinks is a solid relationship then that's not the kind of man I want anyway and it certainly isn't my old H. When I think of all the clues he's given me in the past two years from who knows what'll happen in the future , I will always love you, you deserve better than me, I don't enrich your life so you should go enjoy your life , I think I'm where I'm supposed to be . Just examples and it tells me he's lost . Besides the fact that he's a recovering alcoholic so it's the same tendencies as far as I'm concerned , you know the addiction . I only throw him a bone because I'm going to blow and start bawling my eyes out . When he shows up I'm happy I'm go lucky I'm excited about the things that are happening in my life I act the way I do with every other human being in my life . I am not sad depressed or clingy in any form . So he'll start asking me if I'm okay and I'll say of course I am , so he'll keep pressing and then if he still wasn't getting a reaction , Hills start talking about how he knows how much you hurt me etc. etc. . Or he'll use any other tactic till he gets a response out of me other than of course I'm okay. Then he'll want to hug me and so on and so on . It's not that I'm not capable of detaching its the fact that after he keeps pressing and pressing till we get there that's the part I'm struggling with . I guess I need help with the boundary that when he starts I'm not sure what to do then . It's happened enough times that I know it's coming and what is looking for . I can't thank you enough for all of your help and your insight and willingness to share is comforting and I believe crucial to my healing and I believe others as well , so thank you from the bottom of my heart ! It's almost like because of what you're sharing and the advice that you're giving I don't feel this tremendous need to get it from my H . If that makes sense . You are a godsend !!
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Denjef,
You describe my W perfectly. Once a month she initiated intimacy. Then she retreated everytime afterward.
In our case she too had the 6 month infatuation. She then invited me back home and there was absolutely no mention of him ever for the next 5 months. In June she relapsed. That was the anniversary month so I figured that was the trigger. My Dr did tell me that relapses were possible. It is her drug of choice.
She is in our home with the kids and I do believe they are her lifeline. Last Thanksgiving she stayed in her room. Yesterday they had dinner. I was at neither. I do see the progress and yes its slow. I can afford to let it breathe and be patient.
The overall main difference. Last fall she wanted me gone at all costs. 3 police visits to the house and attempted restraining order. This fall she is pissed that I left after her abuse. One thing that never has changed is Monster. It's been a constant.
I have been gone roughly 6 weeks. Without a doubt, if I went home today she'd march me straight to our bedroom.
It's best I stay away.
Watcher,
Oh I did this too, sorry I could really tell you guys some history but then you would truly realize the the utter craziness I experienced. I would argue with H calls the cops to come escort him off the property then back making love the next week. Then I went silent and on with my life with OM and the attention he gave me. Then I would throw H a bone to keep him where I wanted him. Argue some more because he wanted me to commit to marriage and we fight, cops called again, make love again a few days later, but tell him it's over move on. Crazy cycling!!!!
Your wife still wants you, but she is also confused by her feelings. She doesn't understand them and she is fighting them. You are doing the right thing, she has to walk thru the maze that is taking up the space in her mind.
Denjef31
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I also was wondering what it was like for you when you were BD'd. Did you have to go through the stages of grief and then put your knowledge from the other side to use ? Or did you have a better insight as it was occurring so it made it slightly easier, of course that it was easy at all . I find it interesting that pretty much as soon as you emerge from your fog your H then went into one . Did you have any time to share with him what you were feeling at the time and let him know what you were going through ? It would be interesting to know if that had any effect on how long he would stay in the fog .
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Den, first off I had to giggle when you said shenanigans . I use that word all the time and it makes me giggle every time . Yes , I agree with you hundred percent. I guess I just needed some reassurance . Holidays are a bit tough . There's no doubt in my mind he's not swinging from the chandeliers with OW or he wouldn't be making passes at me . And if that is what he thinks is a solid relationship then that's not the kind of man I want anyway and it certainly isn't my old H. When I think of all the clues he's given me in the past two years from who knows what'll happen in the future , I will always love you, you deserve better than me, I don't enrich your life so you should go enjoy your life , I think I'm where I'm supposed to be . Just examples and it tells me he's lost . Besides the fact that he's a recovering alcoholic so it's the same tendencies as far as I'm concerned , you know the addiction . I only throw him a bone because I'm going to blow and start bawling my eyes out . When he shows up I'm happy I'm go lucky I'm excited about the things that are happening in my life I act the way I do with every other human being in my life . I am not sad depressed or clingy in any form . So he'll start asking me if I'm okay and I'll say of course I am , so he'll keep pressing and then if he still wasn't getting a reaction , Hills start talking about how he knows how much you hurt me etc. etc. . Or he'll use any other tactic till he gets a response out of me other than of course I'm okay. Then he'll want to hug me and so on and so on . It's not that I'm not capable of detaching its the fact that after he keeps pressing and pressing till we get there that's the part I'm struggling with . I guess I need help with the boundary that when he starts I'm not sure what to do then . It's happened enough times that I know it's coming and what is looking for . I can't thank you enough for all of your help and your insight and willingness to share is comforting and I believe crucial to my healing and I believe others as well , so thank you from the bottom of my heart ! It's almost like because of what you're sharing and the advice that you're giving I don't feel this tremendous need to get it from my H . If that makes sense . You are a godsend !!
Honestly this is therapy for me, I blocked it out for so long ashamed and embarrassed by it. Now sharing what I can to help others hopefully will hopefully help others to understand and heal from the hurt this atrocious mental illness causes.
Butterfly, you throw him a bone because you want to throw him a bone, you hope in your mind this time he really wants to reconnect, you hope he is finally being sincere and he has made decisions. Deep down you know this is not true but you still hope that it is. Because you long to be with him. I get it Butterfly and I certainly understand and been where you are. If you are not strong enough to resist him checking the anchor then you must remove yourself from being available until you are strong enough.
Please understand I am not saying give up or move on, I am saying give yourself a chance. Resist for now in hopes that rebuilding can begin in the future. You don't call, you don't initiate and that makes him wonder. It puts you at an advantage but then you show your cards when you give in to his anchor checking and you are back at square 1. He leaves to go back to his safe adulterous haven with OW. Just stop it already!!!!
If you want change you must initiate the changes to get different responses from him. When he starts being receptive you give in. You are doing the pursuit and distance dance right now. You back off he pursues, you give in and he becomes distant again. Get off the rollercoaster ride for now because it is taking you nowhere fast! He needs to be in the pressure cooker for a little while longer.
Denjef31
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Thank you my friend! I needed that! Sometimes we need a spanking , LOL! I don't know why it seems easier to be told what to do because I already knew the answer . My heart just seems to give in to him but if somebody tells me to do it then for some reason I have more strength...crazy, I know. But believe me I become more capable that way. Kinda like lifting a card to save a baby when the pressure is there but any other given day you don't have the strength to lift a car. Besides I do know that the definition of crazy is keep doing the same thing expecting a different result so I guess I'd rather be crazy getting my 2 x 4 then to keep doing the same thing over and over .
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I also was wondering what it was like for you when you were BD'd. Did you have to go through the stages of grief and then put your knowledge from the other side to use ? Or did you have a better insight as it was occurring so it made it slightly easier, of course that it was easy at all . I find it interesting that pretty much as soon as you emerge from your fog your H then went into one . Did you have any time to share with him what you were feeling at the time and let him know what you were going through ? It would be interesting to know if that had any effect on how long he would stay in the fog .
I came here struggling and searching for answers like everybody else. Completely blocked out my own depression or being able to link the two. I never thought about the same things I am hearing and seeing in H I did to him. I was so consumed by the pain of it all some days I just couldn't get out of the bed. Once again I was stuck in my head processing how could this happen. How could he fight for me for 3 years and then poof! It's over, I love you but.......
At first I thought same thing as H did, I took too long, he met someone and he moved on. Too little too late but then I noticed his cycling. I did the same thing he did I tried begging, pleading, reasoning with him and none of that worked. It absolutely no real effect on him to stop doing what he felt he needed to do. He cried uncontrollably every time he saw me while telling me he was not sure he wanted to be married. I knew he was so confused. His actions didn't match what he was saying. Sometimes in a good way and sometimes in a bad way. I would stop pursuit then he would call for something stupid, or he would stop by for like 5 minutes long enough for a hug and kiss. That was his way of checking the anchor when I tried to detach. I begin to think back of things I said and did and put it all together. I have used how I felt, and what I was thinking and did as my guide for the last month or two and it has helped me tremendously.
I no longer cycle, I have completely let it go with the faith and understanding. The depression/MLC is pretty much script. I don't fully understand how we can do and say things almost word for word but the things I am reading are very much script from my own experiences. He just text me asked me "wyd wifey?" as I am writing this. A few months ago it was crickets!!!! No time for me and couldn't be bothered he was running like I had the plague. This is just an indication of how suddenly things can change from what seems like a train that has run off the tracks.
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Can we sticky this thread?
I reread it all the time when i need a boost and more great info just keeps getting added to it.
No, we can not. We already have too many sticky threads.
MLCers are very strange creatures. Mr J left more about 10 years ago. He is still living with OW2, with whom he has been for over eight years. Yet, he still makes it as hard as possible for us to divorce. Go figure.
In our case, we do not talk to each other, we do not see each other, so he does not have his LBS fix, then go back to OW.
He just never seemed to really want a divorce, only opening court cases for appease OW. There was a time I was pushing for the divorce, and, of course, he was make my life a hell. If I want something he does not. I stop caring about it (remaining legally married is not going to stop me from a new relationship), he still does nothing to make it go ahead. One of these days I may push again, but, for now, I am busy with other things.
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Indeed MLC'er are strange. I cant speak from experience on exactly your H thought process as he is what I guess some say is a vanisher? I do know his reluctance and no real effort to get a divorce means he doesn't want to make anything permanent with OW, and he doesn't want to finally close the chapter on the marriage either. This could go on forever I suppose as OW probably is content with having him as long as he returns to him and you have totally removed yourself from the situation and have moved on with your life.
He too is stuck in time. Weeks, months, and years are different for people who are depressed. Time just stands still and before you know it months and years have passed and no real changes and no real efforts are being made. We just accept the status quo existing but not existing. Never truly happy, but too stuck to do anything about it so we take the easy path, the road less traveled.
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He is a vanisher because I made him be one. Otherwise he would remain the champion of clingers. At a point, I could no longer allow communication with him. He was draining my energy and soul.
OW is not happy at all with the situation. He only runs to court, or pretends he is doing something, because she is unhappy with things. But, of course, he can always say, well, legal things take time. They do. And, around here, a lot of it. We are still waiting for a court document to sign, saying we agree to divorce out of court. In the past, I would have called the court and speed them up. Not this time.
I know that depressed people lose time perspective, but, come on, it has been more than 10 years since he left. He knows how old he is now and that it is 2016. Or, at least, I think he does.
For me, it would be important to have him come out of the fog because that way he would no longer oppose the legalities and would pay all the money he owns me. In the tunnel, he just fights, screams and delays.
His easy path seems a very hard one to me. Always miserable, drunk, sleep deprived, with a woman that on his own words he "does not give a firetruck about", clubbing and djing like he was a kid. A miserable kid. OW2 can have him while he is at it. I don't want an unhappy, grumpy, drunk, miserable man around me.
If he is not capable of become unstuck, there is little I can do. I suspect one of these days OW is going to have enough of him and his MLC party ways. Then, he finds a new OW or something.
it is quite sad to see someone that used to be a good, interesting man turned into a boring drunk, leading a self destructive life, but it is up to him to make changes.
The only advantage in this situation is that, while we remain legally married, if anything happens to him, I am his heir (that is the law in our country), OW gets nothing. Other than that, there is nothing of interest in it.
But I may want to get married again. I wanted to in the past, before my life become filled with many other things, and I may again. What happened when I wanted to be married again? Of course Mr J made sure that he found every single legal way of dragging, not being available, saying yes to a settlement, then have it canceled. You name it.
By then I was very upset and very pushy, then I got bored with his antics.
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Denjef,
I've been divorced for a year, and the AD seems to be the one that is hellbent on causing drama. Using my OD to try to provoke me. Hanging out with her, and even went so far as to try to friend my MD on Facebook. The EX got upset because MD undfriended him on FB. He posts everything that he and the AD do together, she was sick of it. The 2 younger ones can't stand the AD, and they found out about her on FB. So, he's not winning any points.
My ExH won't adhere to the divorce agreement of the custody agreements (that were all in his favor). I've asked for everything to be sent by post, and he still emails and texts.
I have a question: He initiated the divorce and I gave it to him. Why the game playing still? And what does this achieve? He even asked MD if she wanted to have a relationship with him. She's 16! He's upset that the girls don't reach out to him ( he only texts, doesn't call ), and refuses to send me anything in the mail, no matter how important.
I don't contact, or even reply unless it's absolutely necessary. Now he's using the kids to try to provoke me. What's the deal?
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I agree with you 100% while time does stand still for the MLC, 10 years is a bit much. He is just stuck and wallowing in his empty life. OW will get tired eventually if she has any sense in that brain of hers and yep he will just move on to the next as he doesn't appear capable of wanting to face his issues so he avoids and treats it with alcohol and adultery. It is quite sad but that is his problem and his losses.
I do hope you are able to get a resolution in the near future for the legal matter because it appears that is all it is at this point a legal matter.
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Denjef,
I've been divorced for a year, and the AD seems to be the one that is hellbent on causing drama. Using my OD to try to provoke me. Hanging out with her, and even went so far as to try to friend my MD on Facebook. The EX got upset because MD undfriended him on FB. He posts everything that he and the AD do together, she was sick of it. The 2 younger ones can't stand the AD, and they found out about her on FB. So, he's not winning any points.
My ExH won't adhere to the divorce agreement of the custody agreements (that were all in his favor). I've asked for everything to be sent by post, and he still emails and texts.
I have a question: He initiated the divorce and I gave it to him. Why the game playing still? And what does this achieve? He even asked MD if she wanted to have a relationship with him. She's 16! He's upset that the girls don't reach out to him ( he only texts, doesn't call ), and refuses to send me anything in the mail, no matter how important.
I don't contact, or even reply unless it's absolutely necessary. Now he's using the kids to try to provoke me. What's the deal?
The deal is he is miserable. All the running he has done and still has not found an ounce of happiness! What his affair partner and her daughter see are all a façade. He is not happy and realizes this life he left to go pursue with OW has not brought him the joy he thought it would so he torments you, hoping you don't move on and find happiness he was unable to achieve.
The reaching out to people who are close to you are attempts to reach you for a reaction without seeming like he is. These are teenager games I use to play when I was like 17 years old. Seriously it really is that simple, he has regressed back to the mind of his teenage years. I don't see your XH being able to come forth in any meaningful way anytime soon. For 1 you do not wish to communicate with him, and 2 he is not capable of being an adult at this point and putting it all on the line.
The affair partner does not require anything from him but a warm body beside her obviously because if she paid attention she would see is not capable of having a healthy adult relationship right now. But that is just it that is all she knows of your XH so to her it seems normal, but to others who know him they know something is off and he is irrational person right now but he does it in the most sneaky way. Monkey braining game playing... continue on with exactly how you are.
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To all of you who responded to me, thank you so much. This thread has helped me so much. Def, H has been with OW 2 1/2+years and still going strong. Trust me, when I speak to my H, I am always up and doing well. I moved 1000 miles away so H has no idea what I am doing. I have done therapy, talk to my priest, exercise and I have met many great people. I have come a long way since I left 1 1/2 years ago. Everyone tells me how strong I am. I never bring up OW to H. I let the OW do what she does to try and hurt me. I say nothing to H, other than send H copies of everything OW sends me. H has told me in the last month - "You are a beautiful person inside and out. I respect you and know you would do anything to help me with my health". H knows i have worked hard on myself and done very well. I have pushed the D, but he is dragging his feet. H told me his head is really f..... up. No one can believe H is still with OW because of the 40 year difference. OW holds on to H for her life. I don't call H anymore, nor text. I am done trying to reach out to H. It hurts too much. I have read and reread your responses to others. I provides me strenght and makes me realize that all MLC'ers are the same. Everyone tells me "he is not the man anyone of us ever knew" I pray constantly but I live now with little hope.
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Denjef, this thread is so helpful.
My husband is in year two (15 months) of MLC. He filed for divorce eight months in after his OW became pregnant ("unplanned"). She moved close by but they do not live together. I am not sure why. I am not sure if the mask has slipped. She has gained a lot of weight since the pregnancy and he as well does not look good.
My husband is a lawyer but arrives totally unprepared to mediation and owes me now six figures in alimony. He has turned in no disclosures.
He is very upset I do not want to be friends. I am almost no contact except when I need to communicate about our son, and this is all text message.
I feel that in our situation there is no hope, because even if he realizes he made a mistake he won't abandon OW and new baby. Also, he had followed emotional abuse script and with this baby there would be so much to overcome.
The hardest part for me is having to let our son spend 50 percent of time with his dad who I am not sure is even sane. My lawyer said I can't push back unless he does something overtly crazy or irresponsible.
I'm curious to hear your thoughts on pregnancy and MLC (and how you might have responded had you gotten pregnant in the fog) as well as kids and MLC.
Thank you for all this information!
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I worry about OW getting pregnant all the time. OW is 24 and H soon to be 63. OW takes pregnancy tests all the time. i found them when I was home. I am sorry for you. H's don't realize how they are ruining their lives and their families lives. We are stuck in this MLC that we never thought was possible in our lives.
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I worry about OW getting pregnant all the time. OW is 24 and H soon to be 63. OW takes pregnancy tests all the time. i found them when I was home. I am sorry for you. H's don't realize how they are ruining their lives and their families lives. We are stuck in this MLC that we never thought was possible in our lives.
The best part of all of this with the OW? If she does get pregnant, guess who will be stuck with raising a baby all by herself when he comes to his senses. I remember the woman who had twins at 66 and was shocked at home much work newborns were. The quest to stay young really is fun for a while, but the reality of having to be up with a baby all night? Good luck with that. She's trying to get pregnant so that she feels like she can trap him. Pure and simple. His swimmers aren't as young as they used to be, and she's risking a baby with lots of issues.
Don't torture yourself with those kinds of thoughts, she's a child that is living in a fantasy world. If you block her texts and calls, you'll have more piece of mind. Don't give her anymore attention, you won't be fun to play with if you don't. The best way to play the game is not to play. I noticed that the AD in my case is constantly trying to get under my skin. She can't, I don't even acknowledge her existence. Don't let yourself get caught up in her drama. She feels empowered tormenting you. Take away her power: ignore her. Far more effective than telling your husband, and will get to her more than her taunting you ever could.
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Yes Strength I agree with what M3G said. My MLCer's OW sent me a letter via registered mail and people on this forum encouraged me to forward unopened to my attorney. My attorney has told me three times how glad she is I did this.
From now on, block her texts and/or forward to your attorney. She may be guilty of harassment and you can get a restraining order. Don't read them anymore, at the very least.
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Thank you so much. I haven't taken calls and OW is blocked. I no longer care what OW has to say. Our children want nothing to do with H and OW. I take life one day at a time for now. Some days are better than others. I just want to get H out of my heart and mind. I certainly know H doesn't give me 5 minutes of his day. It is horrendous how these OW feel entitled to bother us after being the home wrecking ows that they are. OW would love to get pregnant so she can lock in H's $$$$. OW would never have to work and live like she never has in her 24 years. Our children would never be a part of the child, if it came to that. OW tells everyone "I fell in love with him the first day I met him at work". OW knew H position in corporation. OW knew what she was after, and didn't care what she did along with H to destroy the M and family.
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Strength, OW will be out of the picture when the Chemo starts to get the best of him. As long as you're the wife, she won't get what she thinks she's entitled to. Your children will see to that: Does Anna Nicole Smith ring any bells?
This little girl is living in a fantasy world that will come crashing down soon enough. Those women never really get what they want, and if he's sick? Well, let's just say that if you drag out the D she will do something really desperate and stupid. Give everything that you have on them to your lawyer, no matter how embarrassing. Or private. This will help you, and if it does come down to a divorce, you win and she loses.
She's also been watching too many movies if you ask me. That type always does. Thinks it will be just like the movies where she gets everything and you get nothing. Too bad she doesn't know about this site. ;)
This is going to get harder before it get easier. I know that it's not what you want to hear, but it's the truth. You'll have to put your feelings aside and fight for what's rightfully yours in the event of a divorce. Don't kid yourself, if you don't do it, she'll get everything while you're hoping that he snaps out of this. Protect yourself at all costs. Do it now, while he's being generous. The rest of us can tell you what happens when the OW has his ear for too long. Do what you have to do now. He may or may not snap out of this, and if he doesn't the OW will make sure you are left with nothing.
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Den, I could use an honest opinion. My thread is below.
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=8380.0
Quick recap: W is depressed throughout the marriage, gets worse year before BD in July 16, runs out finds OM, gets pregnant, initiates divorce, moves in with him late oct. 3 days later, after dropping off our son, she cries and says she's screwed up and going to make this right. W cancels the divorce (after I distance myself and box up her stuff, take down photos etc), undoes some minor damage, compliments me a lot, apologizes and generally tries not to "get on my bad side" and tries to connect with me over past memories, hobbies etc.
I'm taking a "see how it goes" attitude towards her right now. I don't bring up any R talks or have an expectations, just try to act like we're friends / civil when she initiates it.
Do you have any advice for me? There seem to be two distinct camps for what I fall into.. the cut 'em off, they're cake eating camp and the they can reconnect while there is Op in the picture. I honestly don't feel like OM is a real relationship. He was and is putting her up simply because she's pregnant. She moved in with a friend where he paid her rent and then she moved to his house I guess when it got too expensive. Since day one W has said she doesn't want to loose me.
I'm here, but watching and distant. I'm just curious if you have any perspective. Thanks for all you've given the forum with this thread!
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Gman. Seeing that Den is a female, she's giving you great insight. One thing I can tell you from having a few friends who have gone through this: W will be devastated if you were to move on. With or without a new woman in your life.
If your wife is monstering at you, then NC is the only way you can stop the abuse. If it's not as bad as what some of us have gone through then keep up the contact. Cake eating is only done if you're still acting like you can't live without her. It's all about them feeling empowered. The more power you give over to her, the longer this lasts. She sees you as weak. Period.
You keep asking the same questions over and over again, the answers aren't going to change. Some of it just is what it is. You're going to drive yourself crazy trying to figure it out. You are a rational, mature, sane human being. If you were to figure this out, then you would be crazy too.
I know that you're hurting, we all were at first. It's something that you'll just have to accept. She's going to be like this until she isn't anymore. You'll have to live your life like she's not coming back, whether you want to or not. For your own sake. They can and will drive you crazy, if you let them. That's one, that those of us who've been on this crazy ride have figured out.
NOTHING YOU DO WILL CHANGE ANYTHING. Accept that, and allow yourself to heal. If she does come back, you have to be healthy enough to deal with a broken person. If you're still broken, there will be no reason to come back.
Heal, get yourself back on track. If she comes back, you'll need more strength than when she left to repair things. I know people who have reconciled and are still having to be patient with the MLCer that has finally come back to their senses. You are the strong one, never forget that.
You have to face your own control issues on this. I'm not saying that you're a controlling person. We all go into control mode when this happens. The question is: How long are you going to stay in control mode? If you will accept what is happening, then you will be able to handle the situation as it plays out. If not, you'll still be in the same place you are now in the coming years. You're stuck, and it's not helping you at this point.
Give yourself a break, stop trying to figure her out: you can't. She has no clue what's going on inside her, so believe me you won't. Time is what's needed. You have to detach or else she will continue to torment you, and it will be your own fault for allowing her to do it. The best way to play the game is not to play, and believe me it's a very sick game. Stop playing, get a grip on your own life, and heal. You'll be better off for it.
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Good advice My3girls. It is difficult breaking our old patterns/ behaviors. I have found its easier to move forward staying in NC. She is abusive and crazy Monster so it is warranted. We are out of each others hair and yes, she was driving me nuts while we lived together.
I am now 18 months exactly, evenly split with 9 months living together and 9 months separated. Nothing concurrent. A lot of back and forth. It took me to the last time to realize that I'm out for good for the both of our sakes.
I struggle with the concept that I'm running a family from outside of the house. It's definitely bizarre. This whole experience is just strange. I'm at peace and I'm calm. Maybe thats the point in this journey where Im supposed to be. Sometimes I feel like I should be doing something but as you point out. Nothing I do will change anything. She will be done with this when she is done with this.
Now I also agree, my W is going to be devastated if I find someone else. More likely if someone finds me. But she left the door open. Time will tell.
She also tells me all the time, Watcher I know that you love me. I don't tell her anymore and she is adamant that she must hear it. In her case, she just cares for me. Hahaha.
My current issue. She lives in the family home with our boys. Of course I pay the mortgage and private school for the boys along with some other items. I believe that I am doing the right thing for my sons. Am I hindering her mlc or should I not even be concerned with that thought. My focus has been the two boys and their stability. I do question myself sometimes that I feel like I'm being played. There really is no clean way to approach this.
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M3G,
It's not so much that I'm asking the same thing over and over, it's just that I haven't been sure of what I've been trying to ask. I've just found and read through Den's thread and she hit a point I'm at now.. the LBS confusion, fear and conditioning to see the black lining under everything: Am I enabling cake eating? Am I letting myself be two timed, played or used even? Am I perhaps even stunting her growth?
I'm sure I'm preaching to the choir when I say this, but whenever I talk to anyone or they ask how I'm doing, they feel free to jump in with their two cents and that doesn't help out the LBS confusion any either. They of course neglect to see (or respond to) that yes, I'm living like she's not coming back. I've lost 40 pounds, I've reconnected with some buddies, I'm putting more time into my son, mentoring other youth, I'm re doing my house, Oh W? She said this, did that the other day. ( I don't talk to her unless she talks to me and then I just mirror her, don't ask, don't tell, don't offer, don't help..)
Nearly everyone's response is the same to just the W part: "You need to cut that cake eating b!tch off at the knees! You want to live your life like that forever?!" Given my own abusive past and PTSD, it's hard to even want to reach out to people after being given so much "advice".
I am living my own life and W sees it. She's kissing butt, trying to get me to notice her through cat videos and recipes she sends online, apologizing and trying to show she's changing to the point of being a bit insecure. the day I packed her stuff up was the day I moved on. Yes, I've had some stress I've had to cycle off and I've had some ups and downs but that was my line in the sand. And I have absolutely lived every word I've spoken to others here.
If your wife is monstering at you, then NC is the only way you can stop the abuse. If it's not as bad as what some of us have gone through then keep up the contact. Cake eating is only done if you're still acting like you can't live without her. It's all about them feeling empowered. The more power you give over to her, the longer this lasts. She sees you as weak. Period.
This is the answer I was looking for. I'm sorry if it seemed like I was flinging crap towards the wall, but hey, it worked and you said the right thing. My W isn't monstering and W has taken the submissive role, so your comment about cake eating is what I needed to answer my question.
I'm not trying to control any aspect of this.. I was just trying to find the answer that fit my situation. And I'll be honest, it's tough. You've got pay for websites, free ones, several forums, your own peanut gallery.. it just ain't easy trying to understand what works for you and what doesn't when there's so much and so many varied situations out there.
And to come full circle, it's about me. Yes, I want to leave the door open, but I don't want to be used, played or manipulated. That's just a fear that's on everyone's mind I'm sure..
Also, don't read into what I put in my thread too much. I'm an observer by nature and it helps just to journal and do a brain dump every now and then, I just tend to report more than emote. That doesn't mean I'm over analyzing anything.
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gman,
You're not asking anything the rest of us haven't asked over and over again.
This is very hard to get your head around. It takes time.
There's nothing wrong with going NC or dark for awhile. It gives you a break from it all.
Just keep detaching as much as you can.
Keep journaling your feelings, it helps. :)
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Gman, I can empathize. In my experience most HS members could look over their own advice to other people -- and that is probably the best advice for their own situation.
One of the best things my own therapist has done for me is to be very patient with my process and know when to gently push based on where I was. Another therapist friend pointed out that forums can be great for support but people are not professionally trained. In general, I think the advice and support on this forum is so helpful, but I have also had moments of frustration when I just wanted to share my observations, questions, and complaints and received the well intentioned but often unhelpful directive to "GAL" or "detach," both of which are essentially meaningless to a newly traumatized person or someone still navigating the grief process.
My therapist told me it is normal for a person with PTSD to ask "why?" He also told me this is the most difficult thing he has ever helped anyone navigate.
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Velika, I've really cut back on calling people and letting them talk to me when they call and want to check up on how I'm doing. It's partly because I have to relive the same stories over and over (which doesn't help with anything emotionally) and also because everyone wants to rush in and help with the same advice.
You're right, people are trying to be helpful, but they aren't therapists. I do agree with the "why" thing, especially for trauma that is centered in childhood. I can see that I fall into that pattern too, not necessarily with my particular question here, but in general. It leaves a definite mark and question in ones mind about how people can be so cold, cruel and callous, without empathy, and then without trying, we find ourselves back in the same patterns of abuse, struggling to know and understand why. I would't be surprised to find that's the underlying reason why many of us are on this forum.
I am seeing a therapist and I'm trying to lean on that more as a main means of support.
Thunder, it does help going dim :) I don't have to though as W seems to do it herself; fast and heavy and then out, maybe when she feels she's gotten to close for her own comfort. Or sometimes it hums along.. with touch and go-s and apologies.
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The "why" question.
This has been the toughest part for me.
Sometimes I reason it out and think I have a partial answer.
Othertimes I find myself back at square one with no idea.
For me the "why" is a cyclical thing.
If I am depressed - the why looms large.
If I am in a better space - I can say - "I may never truly know, so I just have to accept what is."
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Gman,
No sense in sharing your fustrations or feelings about your wife MLC, because unless who you are talking to has been thru it or they are close with someone who has then they will not understand. In there eyes your wife is a cheater period and you should just move on and accept it. Ask as many questions as you need to try to wrap your head around what is happening. We don't have all the answers but someone on this board usually has some very good advice to share.
For a period of time I suggest you do let your spouse cake eat, they get to see all the changes and improvements you have made. They get to replace all the bad memories with good memories. Yet at some point you do have to decide when the cake eating stops and you have to protect yourself. That is a personal choice and there is no exact time when that should happen. I do not advocate no contact unless you are being hurt either physically, mentally, or verbally by your spouse. If you are no contact then the chances of reconnecting after replay is greatly reduced. That does not mean pine, or wait for your spouse to wake up from the fog either. What most are having such a difficult time at doing is the one thing that bring results. Again, what some of you are holding on to is preventing you and your from moving along the dark tunnel.
We do know when the changes are real or fake. We do sense when you have finally let go of us and don't feel like you need us and will be fine either way. That's why it is preached soooo much on this forum because it is definitely true. Gman, do not underestimate a woman's intuition. She knows you are right where she left you, despite your silence. What else are you doing besides not initiating and staying out of her way?
Denjef31
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Denjef, if someone is low contact due to emotional abuse/manipulation/(in my case) pending divorce and pregnant OW, at what point if any would it make sense to re-initiate. On my end I feel I would need to see at least some level of empathy or respect from MLCer.
Do you agree? Also, do you think a MLCer's level of feelings/commitment to OW/OM would be changed by pregnancy? My MLC-H seems to have just substituted his OW in for me.
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You know denjef, I have never liked NC, unless there is abuse. I feel the same way you do. I didn't go NC with my H because there was not abuse.
How do you build any kind of connection without some contact?
I lived with my MLCer for almost a year before I moved out, and you're right. He got a ringside seat to the great changes I was making.
I didn't consider it cake-eating because we were still married and there was no OW on the scene. But I do think it made a difference. He never really disconnected completely with me.
You are the FIRST person I have EVER heard say to allow cake-eating (for awhile) and I can not tell you how much I agree with that!
I realize some people have no choice, their MLCer vanishes, but if they haven't why not try it for awhile?
You'll know when to stop.
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denjef31, thank you for articulating a response. I am choosing to let her cake eat for exactly why you said so, but in the back of my head, I've given her 6-8 months. Why? As you and others have mentioned, the infatuation period with OM should be ending (not that I think there is one now), she should be more stabilized and further long along in her pregnancy and more comfortable with where she is in her MLC and I will be too and able to plot my next step at that stage. After packing her stuff up, I took off like a rocket and I think she's trying to hold on but I need to translate that positive action on her part eventually.
We do know when the changes are real or fake. We do sense when you have finally let go of us and don't feel like you need us and will be fine either way. That's why it is preached soooo much on this forum because it is definitely true. Gman, do not underestimate a woman's intuition. She knows you are right where she left you, despite your silence. What else are you doing besides not initiating and staying out of her way?
I'm really glad you posted this as it's something for us all to think about and how much we've really detached. Right now, I've done all I can do, for now. I've changed me, she's suspicious I've been out to see a few people (which I have been, but w/ friends, but she doesn't need to know), I've been living my life (you should see her jaw drop when she finds out about something I did and she didn't know about it), the house is changed, I've been making improvements..
But that's about all I can manage right now. I would like to move to a point where I can go out more with people or participate in group activities such as 5ks etc.
I will tell you, in my head, I don't need her, that will become apparent to her if she does not move further along her own curve, if she doesn't realize it already.
Thunder & M3G, i agree about the cake eating as well. I wasn't trying to be rough in my earlier post (please don't take offense M3G), but we talk about rebuilding, connecting etc. and we know there's this gray area that's there, but we hand out black and white advice so often and I was just having trouble getting that out and that's why I wanted to ask Den as it seemed like we were in the same space, at least for a bit.
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I worked on the the relationship for over 2 years and nothing worked. H did the cake-eating for over 1 year and I have gone back and forth with the NC. If I don't call, I don't hear from him. The affair is 2 1/2+ years, and all I get is stress and anxiety when we talk. I believe at some point the MLC'er has to be the one to work on the relationship, since they have destroyed the M and the family. Enough is enough at some point.
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I have tried over and over again to work on the relationship from the start. I have gotten no where, but more hurt. Never once have I heard H say recently that he does not want D. H never checks on me. Only time H cared was when I flew home, then H would talk and be nice. H has never reached out to me. At what point do LBS say enough? Some of you feel the NC makes the situation worse and separates the M more. But, when H is still with OW how does it help to get in the way? It makes LBS look insecure and unable to move forward. I have done absolutely everything to work on M with no result. That is why I am pushing the D. Obviously, I am not wanted and H has made a choice, even if he is miserable.
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For a period of time I suggest you do let your spouse cake eat, they get to see all the changes and improvements you have made. They get to replace all the bad memories with good memories. Yet at some point you do have to decide when the cake eating stops and you have to protect yourself. That is a personal choice and there is no exact time when that should happen. I do not advocate no contact unless you are being hurt either physically, mentally, or verbally by your spouse. If you are no contact then the chances of reconnecting after replay is greatly reduced. That does not mean pine, or wait for your spouse to wake up from the fog either. What most are having such a difficult time at doing is the one thing that bring results. Again, what some of you are holding on to is preventing you and your from moving along the dark tunnel.
We do know when the changes are real or fake. We do sense when you have finally let go of us and don't feel like you need us and will be fine either way. That's why it is preached soooo much on this forum because it is definitely true. Gman, do not underestimate a woman's intuition. She knows you are right where she left you, despite your silence. What else are you doing besides not initiating and staying out of her way?
Denjef31
Agree wholeheartedly with the above, especially the bold part.
In my case, I believe Mr. HP knows the changes are real because I've had plenty of opportunity to show him when we've spent time together as a family (which at times can feel like cake-eating).
The biggest struggle for me, at the moment, is completely letting go. I feel like I am very close to that point but feel like hope gets in the way. Not sure if that makes any sense. I do know that I'll be okay either way but I'm still mourning the dream of an intact family unit living under the same roof (FOO issues).
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Fascinating thread. I'm trying to catch up with it all in limited time... will read more when I can.
But one thing I noticed, and wanted to ask: Denjef, you said something about being back at 20 years of age again.... something like that. I would be interested to know more about this angle of mlc, if you wouldn't mind sharing. What FOO issues were there, how do they resurface, and to what extent does the depth of FOO damage exacerbate the MLC, do you think?
Thank you, and apologies if you have already answered this between page 10 and the last page, which is where I've got to in my reading....
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Handpuppet I agree with a lot that you have said. My H has told me I am desperate and no self esteem when I keep reaching out to him. Why then would I keep doing such a thing. H destroyed everything, I have done everything possible with no progress. I will not beg H to be with me. It only fires up the OW. H has allowed OW to hurt me by calling, text, pictures, etc and H is ok with that. I will never allow anyone to walk all over me. I am a wonderful person and if NC and no cake-eating is wrong then I have wasted a lot of my life. Any normal human being can take just so much before they push for D. H's loss and H knows it and so does everyone we know.
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sorry, but what is FOO
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strength, your H and his ow have been unusually abusive to you.
As much as I am against NC, in your case that's the only thing I see as a good approach.
My gosh what else can you do??
Going NC IS the best thing sometimes to stop the hurt.
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Thank you Thunder. That is the best thing I have heard all day. My therapist told me that I have been extremely abused by H and OW. OW begged H to spend Christmas with H 2 years ago, so after company left our home, H picked a fight and left for 3 days with NC, phone turned off. OW wrote with permanent marker on H and mine pictures "he loves me, with her name, 2016" It goes on and on. The pictures of OW at my home are disgusting. Sends me texts that H sends her to hurt me. I see no other way for me anymore. I gave it 2 1/2+ years and no change in H.
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Handpuppet I agree with a lot that you have said. My H has told me I am desperate and no self esteem when I keep reaching out to him. Why then would I keep doing such a thing. H destroyed everything, I have done everything possible with no progress. I will not beg H to be with me. It only fires up the OW. H has allowed OW to hurt me by calling, text, pictures, etc and H is ok with that. I will never allow anyone to walk all over me. I am a wonderful person and if NC and no cake-eating is wrong then I have wasted a lot of my life. Any normal human being can take just so much before they push for D. H's loss and H knows it and so does everyone we know.
I don't think there is a right or wrong here. While there is evidence of a MLC script, each of us has complex situations and circumstances to deal with. Do what you need to do for your own sanity and safety.
If reaching out to him doesn't bring you peace, then don't do it. If reaching out to him brings you peace, then do that. NC may be what you need to do right now but it might not be what you do six months from now; there is a ebb and flow to all of this crazy. My point is.. you cannot reconnect if there is NO connection so going NC to punish or discipline them is not going to work if your long-term goal is reconciliation. NC is appropriate if there is abuse or you feel unsafe.
When Mr. HP was in the throws of OW2, I went fairly dim/dark. During this time, he would monster to get a reaction from me and sometimes it would catch me off guard because I hadn't learned to do a different dance yet (so to speak) and I would totally take the bait. But now (5.5 years later) we are reconnecting... I still go dim at times but overall I try to be consistent with my behavior to encourage the reconnection, and hopefully one day reconciliation.
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sorry, but what is FOO
FOO: Family of Origin; family you grew up with which impacted how you learned to communicate, process emotions, and get needs met.
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strength, your H and his ow have been unusually abusive to you.
As much as I am against NC, in your case that's the only thing I see as a good approach.
My gosh what else can you do??
Going NC IS the best thing sometimes to stop the hurt.
Totally agree with Thunder that NC may be appropriate given your situation. *hugs*
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thank you. that is all i can do for now. the hurt is too much for me. this doesn't mean that i won't talk to H anymore but for now and the holidays coming i can't hurt myself anymore than i am already hurting. believe me, i miss H every day and want nothing more than reconciliation and our life again. i just have to stay away for now and let H feel what it is like without any contact from me.
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denjef, this thread is getting to long - it has past 150 posts. I have locked it and kindly ask you to open a new one and reply to those who have posted here on the new thread. Thank you.
New Thread: http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=8451 (http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=8451)