Midlife Crisis: Support for Left Behind Spouses
Archives => Archived Topics => Topic started by: Treasur on September 27, 2017, 11:55:05 PM
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Trying to learn more about LBS stages in my grace and flowers thread as part of focusing on us!
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The thing about stages is it's almost impossible to check a box.
It's normal to fluctuate between the emotions not only day by day but hour by hour.
Since I am over four years in, I'm mostly in acceptance but I still have pockets of anger, sadness, even denial.
Four years later, I still wake up sometimes with the thoughts of, "I can't believe he did this to our family".
I have a friend that is more than 10 years in, she is very happy with her new relationship (well it's been 5-6 years, so not that new).
She tells me she still cries sometimes.
I believe, this will always be a part of us.
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It is like spiral, LBS going up in circles and going trough all of those phases. Each circle make progress, bit by bit you spiraling up. LBS can be in several of them in same time. Point is when you climb enough high then you are done and not coming back - you are finished with healing. Of course like MLCers LBS's could stuck in circle, no spiraling up. And if it is so then you be forever there until breakthrough, then you going up. People who did not watch "Groundhog day" movie it is the best movie ever, in my opinion, about transformation - individuation - "hero path".
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I think we do all spiral, sometimes triggered by external things, sometimes just our own heads take a revisit.
From my own experience though, it feels as if 'being' at a stage vs revisiting it is quite different. When I was living in Denial, I felt overwhelmed by disbelief and traumatised by pain. Literally nothing made sense to me and everything hurt. I felt as if I had fallen off a cliff or woken up on another planet. I frequently felt as if I was losing my mind.
Now, when I pop back to Denial - and I do - it still hurts but I feel a bit more of an observer. It feels like a place I visit not one I live in? For me, even though it isn't a linear process at all, there is a sense of standing on different ground at different stages. Home base perhaps.
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Where is stage 6 Renewal (forgiveness, healing, new you)?
That is mine.
At a point, the spiral stops for good. But that point is years down the road and the years down the road are different for each LBS.
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Me too, Anjae.
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I'm at acceptance most of the time but that doesn't stop me from spiraling into anger & depression sometimes. I just don't live there anymore - thankfully.
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Where is stage 6 Renewal (forgiveness, healing, new you)?
That is mine.
At a point, the spiral stops for good. But that point is years down the road and the years down the road are different for each LBS.
Only had choice of 5 answers!
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Oh ok, then I'll do Acceptance. :)
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I'm going to use this thread to help us all look at all 6 - what they feel like, what helps or doesn't, what the purpose is (a bit like the MLC stages)...it seems to me that standing for ourselves and for the faith to know that Renewal is there matters most. (no matter what happens to our spouses)
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I still am struggling with all of the above.
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Saving - we all cycle too, it's normal. My gut (and 2 years of experience as a really slow learner) is that the stages pull us into different struggles and goals. And different things help.
So, in Denial, and the shock/anxiety that goes with it, I think we get pulled into a mixture of almost obsessive thinking/questioning, over-emotional reactions and a sort of frozen traumatic shock. The goal is probably something about safety, about finding a small bit of reality to stand on. What helps? Living in the minute/hour/day. Focusing on our body as much as we can - food, sleep, exercise. Just dealing with the right now, because the past has been blown up and the future is scary. Being as kind as we can to ourselves as we can. Feeling heard and seen (and most of us have done the inappropriate sharing - thank Go for the kindness of strangers!)
What doesn't help? (but we do anyway) is trying to find answers or fix it. Or use our mind-reading powers. Jumping into action. Emails. Texts. Emotional knee-jerk stuff.
It needs an almost super-human amount of effort to try to pull our heads away from our MLCers or find ways to shut the noise down in our heads. Trying to slow everything down and breathe. Anything that balances the fight/flight response is good but hard.
In my experience now when I dip back into it, it is a paler version and I can let it run for a bit and climb out. I couldn't do that when I was in the grip of that first stage. It was overwhelming.
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I also found that different phrases helped at different stages (even if I didn't always quite believe them!) In Denial, I think it was 'today was sh*t, tomorrow I can try again' and "this too shall pass". And the infamous 'baby steps are ok'.
In Bargaining, probably "It is what it is" and "I didn't cause it and I can't fix it". Plus the Serenity Prayer!
What helped everyone else at the Denial stage? What didn't?
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What doesn't help? (but we do anyway) is trying to find answers or fix it. Or use our mind-reading powers. Jumping into action. Emails. Texts. Emotional knee-jerk stuff.
It needs an almost super-human amount of effort to try to pull our heads away from our MLCers or find ways to shut the noise down in our heads. Trying to slow everything down and breathe. Anything that balances the fight/flight response is good but hard.
In my experience now when I dip back into it, it is a paler version and I can let it run for a bit and climb out. I couldn't do that when I was in the grip of that first stage. It was overwhelming.
:-\ SO ME!!! I feel that if I am nice enough that he will realize that I am worth keeping. I cannot get away from wanting to see him, but I know I am much better off not. I have found a happy place before and know one exists for me. I guess I am still too fresh into this event to turn my give a damn off completely.
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You don't need to turn your give a damn off completely. You just need to put it in a shoe box and store it up in the closet in the attic.
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Ask the mods if they can step up one more question. From what I remember, it was possible to have more than 5.
I stick with stage 6. If there are 6 stages and some of us are on stage 6, chosing stage 5 will make the percentages wrong.
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Ask the mods if they can step up one more question. From what I remember, it was possible to have more than 5.
I stick with stage 6. If there are 6 stages and some of us are on stage 6, chosing stage 5 will make the percentages wrong.
Good call
I changed it!
Although apparently I can't change my vote
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Sorry - my bad! Can the mods take 2 from Acceptance & add 2 to Renewal?
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Sorry - my bad! Can the mods take 2 from Acceptance & add 2 to Renewal?
Uh no we can not change the results - however I lengthened the time of the poll
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But we can remove poll and make new one and people then could vote again ?
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But we can remove poll and make new one and people then could vote again ?
That is true - do you want to do that?
Personally I would just leave it the way it is for now.
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Anjae:
Where is stage 6 Renewal (forgiveness, healing, new you)?
That is mine.
At a point, the spiral stops for good. But that point is years down the road and the years down the road are different for each LBS.
This is how the "stages" overlap each other. I too voted already for "acceptance" and I wouldn't change my vote. I see renewal as something that has been ongoing and happening for years, even prior to reaching "acceptance".
I wonder if the spiral will ever stop for "good" as Anjae suggests. This weekend will be our 40th wedding anniversary. My sister told me I need to stop counting my wedding anniversaries. But that date, especially a significant one like 40, is always going to be one that I will remember.
Certainly, I handle "triggers" better and even interact with him without the "panic" and intensity of feelings that once smacked me in the face.
How long it takes for the LBSer to get past each stage, for indeed it isn't linear, you go back and forth a great deal in the "early" years.....depends a great deal on the length of the marriage, how the relationship was throughout the marriage, the beliefs of the LBSer and the type of MLCer he/she is dealing with.
Ultimately though, the LBSer makes choices...I will forgive him, I will build a life without his love, I will accept that regardless of what caused this, he has chosen to live a different life, I will love him despite his rejection of my love.....these and acknowledgment of our feelings and love for ourselves require a great deal of time and work to get through.The stages cannot be rushed through and there is no right or wrong. It is important for the LBSer to recognize where they are at, and accept this process in themselves, of healing from loss.
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Leave it, I think, Old Pilot - ta!
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I wonder if the spiral will ever stop for "good" as Anjae suggests.
For me it did. And if there are six stages, then the 6th has to be different than the 5th.
I don't think remebering an anniversary an a trigger are the same thing. I know when I got married and that this year it would had been 20 years of marriage and 30 together, but it triggers nothing in me. It is just a fact, not a feeling.
Treasur,
Since I think until stage six was added only two people that would had voted on stage 6: OP and Thunder voted instead on stage 5, when the poll is over, you can subtract two votes from stage 5 and add then to stage 6. Not in the poll results, but on a post.
So, for example, if the poll would close now, you could do a post saying, Acceptance has in fact 15 votes and Renewal 4.
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Good idea, Anjae
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I wonder if thinking about our stages also helps us to 'feel' what the MLC stages are like. We seem to be saying that they aren't linear, more of a spiral, but there is progression over time. Maybe they are more phases than stages?
We also seem to be saying that you can see them best looking back and there aren't fixed timescales. Triggers can flip us back but that weakens over time. Also, there is a real emotional difference in how it feels to be in a phase rather than revisiting it when we are triggered. It all sounds a bit similar to the MLC description, a cycle where each stage pushes someone to feel and focus on given things and almost a sense of a 'door' to the next stage. As well as the cycling if there is 'unfinished business'.
Reading some of the reconnection/reconciliation stories, it sounds as if the LBS is almost forced to go back through the stages in a different way too. A struggle with anger or depression that pops up and takes people by surprise sometimes. I guess the message is that, just as with MLC, the LBS stages have a purpose and moving forward in our own recovery is about 'getting the job done' of each stage as honestly as we can.
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MLC seems to be a process of doing two things, put simply, healing unfinished childhood stuff and rebuilding an identity that is less about accommodating others' expectations and more about your individualising to who you really are/want to be.
Do you think as an LBS that the situation forces you to go through a mini-MLC of your own?
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BBHelp has some really powerful descriptions of the phases he went through as an LBS. Worth a read if you haven't seen it http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=8080.0
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Good idea, Anjae
Glad you liked it.
I wonder if thinking about our stages also helps us to 'feel' what the MLC stages are like. We seem to be saying that they aren't linear, more of a spiral, but there is progression over time. Maybe they are more phases than stages?
The MLCer stages also aren't linear. MLCer stages vary according to those writing about MLC. I like RCR ones, she only has four and includes stages that others have separed as sub-stages of hers. For example, RCR does not have depression as a separated stage. In fact, Replay is not a stage, it is a sub-set of RCR stage 1, Separation. Separation is divided in:
Rejection & Refusal
Resentment
Escape & Avoid (Covert Depression)
High-Energy: Replay
OR
Low-Energy: Wallow
Then, for RCR, there are:
2- Liminality or Liminal/Overt Depression
3 - Rebirth
4 - Reintegration
MLCers who come out of crisis had, of course, progressed. However many MLCers remain too many years on Stage one sub-set Escape & Avoid, without any visible progress. For the LBS the progress is much more obvious. And our jumps from stage to stage, even if we may still have things from the previous stage, are much more solid and obvious.
Come on, Mr J has been in Escape & Avoid for 11 years. There has been none, or minimal, progress. In 11 years a LBS will more than be on LBS stage 6.
Yes, at least using RCR system, there are phases, or sub-sets inside the stages. Especially inside her stage one for the MLCer. Her other three stages of MLC tend, as can be seen above, to be much more linear. Even if the articles say - and we have often seen it here on HS with MLCers that are reconnecting that on stage 2 - Liminality or Liminal/Overt Depression the MLcer can regress to Escape & Avoid.
Once on the path of rebirth, it will be very difficult to go back to the previous two stages, and on stage four, Rebirth, there is really no going back to any of the previous stages.
MLC does not end when Replay ends. We all pay Replay a lot of attention because it is the longes and most damaging of the stages, and tend to think once Escape & Avoid is left behing, MLC is over. It isn't. There are still more three stages to go through.
MLC seems to be a process of doing two things, put simply, healing unfinished childhood stuff ...
For those of us that believe MLC involves unfinished childhood issue, maybe. Personally I don't believe MLC involves unfinished childhood. But even if I did, I never understood how repeating what has caused you pain and hurt in childhood is going to solve whatever problem and make you a better person. Even because, while you are doing what MCLers do for whatever reason they do it, they are just causing a huge new amount of issues and pilling a gigantic amout of pain, hurt, desloyalty, you name it, to deal with.
... and rebuilding an identity that is less about accommodating others' expectations and more about your individualising to who you really are/want to be.
I don't know. Speaking for myself, I am far more accommodating after my crisis than before. Not really of people's expectations, but of people themselves. Even if, only to a degree.
And Mr J also wasn't exactly good at accomodating people's expectations. If he was, he would had stydied what FIL wanted him to study, he didn't, etc. None of us was very accomodating of other's expectations and we were very individualistc. Intellectual and artistic people tend to be that way.
We also were doing exactly what we wanted to do since we meet, so, none of us was bound to things we didn't want. After BD I had to stuck to tons of stuff that doesn't have much of an interest to me, and has nothing to do with what I was, or, in some cases, who I am.
Do you think as an LBS that the situation forces you to go through a mini-MLC of your own?
For some of us, myself included, yes. I am not capable of say if the seeds were already there and it only come to the forefront with BD. I do not recall anything upsetting happening before BD. My there were several afterwards, including my dad's death days after Mr J had left.
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First of alll, Anjae, I am so sorry that your lost your Dad too a few days after. I can't imagine how hard that must have been. You are truly made of strong woman stuff to have survived both.
I hadn't looked at RCRs stages but I will now.
I guess whether MLC or LBS, our experience is both 'scripted' and individual. I'd never had anything really this bad in my life and I struggled to 'get' to a point of accepting that my H could be so cold and cruel to me. A friend who survived childhood abuse said she finds it easier to accept that people you love can also hurt you, so it was my blindspot. Each LBS probably finds their own way through, things that are easier or harder depending on their own personality and experience.
I am sorry Mr J is still lost. I think it is quite likely, based on my knowledge of him, that my H will keep running for years. Even well, my H was not as brave as me and I can see why it would be easier. My assumption is that I'll never see him again so I won't know.
I guess part of the LBS stages - bargaining maybe, IDK - is hunting for the answer to 'why'. Some people got here quickly; others like me took well over a year. Then we all ask, and return, to a few questions...Is it me? Is it really MLC? If it is, when will it get better? Or worse? Will my M be one of the 'lucky' ones?
I don't know the answers. I found that for my H, what I knew about him and his history made him look pretty textbook for an MLC candidate. It helped maybe because he was formally diagnosed with severe depression. Some of his behaviour and words were right on script. As a vanisher (pretty much) I got less Monster spew because there was less contact, although I suspect he was thinking it if not saying it! (And with the RCR description, he started as a low-energy wallower for about 6 months, I think, before starting the High-Energy WTF stuff). Maybe for me, MLC is a 'good enough' explanation of what I also have to accept I can't know for sure?
I don't know if it is the same for you, but I've found deciding it's probably MLC even if I can't know helped me in a couple of ways. First it helped me see it really wasn't about me, probably not even our M. It helped me answer the 'How did this person I know so well turn into a crazy alien who is 90% the opposite of who they were?' question.
And above all, it helped me limp my way towards acceptance - that something extraordinary had happened to my H (and my life), that I couldn't fix it and it wasn't going away anytime soon so I needed a Plan B. I think it has also helped me hold on to loving my beloved and my own reality of those 18 years which mattered to me. I think it is easier because I don't see him to not get pulled into watching for MLC signs or stages or timescales in him. I haven't seen him for 11 months. I have no idea how he is or what he's doing or what he thinks now.
Someone who knew us both well recently asked me WTF happened...I could only say "I don't know. H had a breakdown, ran away and decided that he would be better with a new life without my face in it."
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Worth a re-read too for the LBS https://thestagesandlessonsofmidlife.org/the-left-behind-spouses-emotional-journey/
Clear messages that a) the M you had is gone b) you have to protect yourself the best you can and c) whether you want it or not, you are now on your own path of change and recovery
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Thanks Treasr for starting this discussion. It seems this group has many in acceptance. I agree that I can still cycle into any of the stages briefly. Mostly I have no choice to move my life forward to find new joy else where. I hope this discussion will help in how to do that!
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Lots of us do seem to be at/near Acceptance, don't we? Not sure why. Maybe proving how this community helps. Maybe it's about time because a lot of new folks don't find their way here straight away?
Prompted by Anjae. :)
Been musing on the RCR version of MLC stages and how it might help us think about the LBS path.(in italics) It’s based on a Jungian concept of the Shadow Self, about Ego & Identity Strength. Absolutely not linear, and different phases can play out at the same time. For the MLCer and the LBS, it is fundamentally about evolving a new you through crisis.
Separation – prolonged by denial, driven by trying to prevent the inevitable feeling of something ‘not right’. Continues until see that you feel worse, that everything you have tried hasn’t ‘fixed’ it and too tired to run any longer. (I think as LBS we get to this point too, it’s what drags us towards Detachment & Acceptance. We can’t deny reality, and everything we’ve tried has failed so we have to find a way to live with it.)
1. Rejection & Refusal – refusing to acknowledge issues, wanting to ignore an uncomfortable reality. (Where we all start, that sense of shock, obsessive focus on MLCer)
a. Denying Reality – “It’s not happening” (Shock and hoping it will magically go away, feeling numb and frozen)
b. Reducing Impact – “It’s not a big deal, it’s ok/normal” (Bargaining bit when we think we can adjust, take the edges off, make a holding pattern, influence them somehow)
c. Justification – “I have no other option” (Needing control, reacting emotionally, feeling trapped or in limbo)
d. Projection – “It’s your/their fault” (Feeling like a victim, controlled, hurt, as if others don’t get it or are not supportive)
2. Resentment – anger driven by feeling inferior, powerless or out of control, fear and ‘why me’. (Confusion, anger, fear, not sure what to do and anxious about the impact on you and your family, starting to see some tough facts, feeling overwhelmed and how unfair it is)
3. Replay/Covert Depression – avoiding guilt and fear through fantasy, cycling between anger and depression, control, confusion. (Healthy and not healthy GAL and self-care. Concerned about our own sanity sometimes. Experimenting to find ways to make ourselves feel better, if not the situation. Forcing ourselves to do tough things. Failing sometimes, doubt. Intellectual detachment)
Overt Depression – reality bites, grief, fear of nothingness, retreating inward, volatility, not sure what to do or if have courage to act. Continues until you find courage to accept where you are and decide to act. Depending on your choice, may move forward to uncertain Rebirth or may cycle back to Replay if still avoiding or Depression if stuck unable to act. (Grieving, hunting for answers, solutions and hope. Cycling through big emotions. Teaching ourselves to Detach, Let Go and trying to survive from day to day. Hunting for emotional detachment and stability)
Rebirth & Integration – anxiety and uncertainty, driven by need to heal and rebuild, process of experimentation to find comfort with new identity that incorporates old and new, issues of safety and control, trust, doubt and shame. Continues until feel ‘settled’ into new identity and confident enough to resolve outstanding issues and effects. (Acceptance and Renewal. Writing our own story, finding what works, feeling better about ourselves. Learning to live through what has happened. Focusing more on the future than the past. Deciding to focus on our own lives and what doors we want to keep open or not. Starting to see what we have gained as well as lost. Knowing we will be OK whatever happens. )
I wonder if by discussing the LBS route, we might be able to come up with a To Do/Not list for different stages. Like MLC, we can't skip it and it isn't linear, but maybe we can help ourselves navigate it better as we wish our MLC spouses could!
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Lots of us do seem to be at/near Acceptance, don't we? Not sure why. Maybe proving how this community helps. Maybe it's about time because a lot of new folks don't find their way here straight away?
Prompted by Anjae. :)
Been musing on the RCR version of MLC stages and how it might help us think about the LBS path.(in italics) It’s based on a Jungian concept of the Shadow Self, about Ego & Identity Strength. Absolutely not linear, and different phases can play out at the same time. For the MLCer and the LBS, it is fundamentally about evolving a new you through crisis.
Separation – prolonged by denial, driven by trying to prevent the inevitable feeling of something ‘not right’. Continues until see that you feel worse, that everything you have tried hasn’t ‘fixed’ it and too tired to run any longer. (I think as LBS we get to this point too, it’s what drags us towards Detachment & Acceptance. We can’t deny reality, and everything we’ve tried has failed so we have to find a way to live with it.)
1. Rejection & Refusal – refusing to acknowledge issues, wanting to ignore an uncomfortable reality. (Where we all start, that sense of shock, obsessive focus on MLCer)
a. Denying Reality – “It’s not happening” (Shock and hoping it will magically go away, feeling numb and frozen)
b. Reducing Impact – “It’s not a big deal, it’s ok/normal” (Bargaining bit when we think we can adjust, take the edges off, make a holding pattern, influence them somehow)
c. Justification – “I have no other option” (Needing control, reacting emotionally, feeling trapped or in limbo)
d. Projection – “It’s your/their fault” (Feeling like a victim, controlled, hurt, as if others don’t get it or are not supportive)
2. Resentment – anger driven by feeling inferior, powerless or out of control, fear and ‘why me’. (Confusion, anger, fear, not sure what to do and anxious about the impact on you and your family, starting to see some tough facts, feeling overwhelmed and how unfair it is)
3. Replay/Covert Depression – avoiding guilt and fear through fantasy, cycling between anger and depression, control, confusion. (Healthy and not healthy GAL and self-care. Concerned about our own sanity sometimes. Experimenting to find ways to make ourselves feel better, if not the situation. Forcing ourselves to do tough things. Failing sometimes, doubt. Intellectual detachment)
Overt Depression – reality bites, grief, fear of nothingness, retreating inward, volatility, not sure what to do or if have courage to act. Continues until you find courage to accept where you are and decide to act. Depending on your choice, may move forward to uncertain Rebirth or may cycle back to Replay if still avoiding or Depression if stuck unable to act. (Grieving, hunting for answers, solutions and hope. Cycling through big emotions. Teaching ourselves to Detach, Let Go and trying to survive from day to day. Hunting for emotional detachment and stability)
Rebirth & Integration – anxiety and uncertainty, driven by need to heal and rebuild, process of experimentation to find comfort with new identity that incorporates old and new, issues of safety and control, trust, doubt and shame. Continues until feel ‘settled’ into new identity and confident enough to resolve outstanding issues and effects. (Acceptance and Renewal. Writing our own story, finding what works, feeling better about ourselves. Learning to live through what has happened. Focusing more on the future than the past. Deciding to focus on our own lives and what doors we want to keep open or not. Starting to see what we have gained as well as lost. Knowing we will be OK whatever happens. )
I wonder if by discussing the LBS route, we might be able to come up with a To Do/Not list for different stages. Like MLC, we can't skip it and it isn't linear, but maybe we can help ourselves navigate it better as we wish our MLC spouses could!
WOW Treasur, I really think you are on to something. I think we need a more open discussion on the LBS route.. I know I am not doing well right now, simply hanging on but not sure what I'm hanging on to or why I'm putting myself through all this for someone that just walked out the door.. I know I love him , but I'm seeing that love isn't enough and even my H said that love isn't enough.. so right now I am feeling defeated, lost, unsure.. I'm in a bad place this morning..my emotions are reeling...
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I'm sorry waiting4, the cycling is exhausting, I know.
Where do you think you are mostly at in terms of LBS stage, even if you're dipping in and out of others?
My instinct is that, just as the MLC stages serve a purpose, a point you have to unconsciously maybe get to before moving forward...I wonder if there is a similar 'goal' for an LBS stage too? That each phase has a 'job' and if we see that, it might help us keep ourselves well and moving forward (if slowly sometimes!)
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I am sorry you are felling down, Waiting. Like Treasur said, cycling is exhausting.
I think we need a more open discussion on the LBS route.
We have four threads called LBS Stages:
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=2625.0
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=5734.0
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=5789.0
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=8078.0
The latest is a fixed thread on the Community Board. And there is no shortage of the trials and tribulations of the LBS journey in our individual threads.
I would also suggest reading RCR articles, both site and blog ones. Also RCR's Newbies, Read This http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=1149.0
My instinct is that, just as the MLC stages serve a purpose, a point you have to unconsciously maybe get to before moving forward...I wonder if there is a similar 'goal' for an LBS stage too?
That each phase has a 'job' and if we see that, it might help us keep ourselves well and moving forward (if slowly sometimes!)
I've had a MLC and been trought every LBS stage, but I don't have a clue what the purpose was. For me, MCL is pretty useless. It is something I think could be solved/mitigated, saving everyone a lot of pain, hurt and grief if only health professionals were trained to recognised it as soon as it shows (and that is way before BD) and knew how to deal with it.
I see absolutely no reason or purpose for all we and the MCLer go through. However, there are many views on what MLC is, and that, I think makes it very difficult for anyone to be looking for a way of making it not happening/prevent it/solve it/mitigate it.
I truly do not believe any of this was necessary nor that anyone is going to prefer to have done all the crazy stuff MLCers do. The only palpable thing I tend to see MLC doing is, often, leaving the LBS and children in a dire financial situation.
Yes, we recover emotionally from it, we carry on with our lives, but, often, the financial damages (and other damages) never go away.
I come arrived by googling Jung + MLC. Jung's theory is beautiful, but since Jung had a MCL himself (or at least suffered from mahor depression) and lead a less than stellar life afterwards, I have to wonder if his theory wasn't just a way of getting away with having a wife and a mistress under the same roof - even if Emma Jung, his wife, didn't mind. Jung married openly for money, Emma knew it and was fine with it. Jung also got emotionally and sexually involved with patients, which is truly less that stellar.
MLC is a term created by Canadian psychologist Elliott Jaques and it refers to middle age men artistic creativeness and if they may, or may not, have a crisis of creativeness, not to what we see as a midlife crisis.
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I wanted to comment from my own experience on this:
Rebirth & Integration: Focusing more on the future than the past.
I actually focus more on the present moment than the future.....I have learned that my future is not in my control really and that I should focus on the moment more...especially ones that bring me joy.
I am more aware of what matters to me now.
Anjae:
I see absolutely no reason or purpose for all we and the MCLer go through.
I agree. I was a very stable person prior to BD. I was very happy in my life and loved this man...still do.
I see no purpose in any off this, for me, for my daughter and most of all for him. Perhaps he will resolve some issues that he carried with him, perhaps he is more content on his own.
Any "growth" I may have had could have occurred in a much less painful way. I had always been on a path of self actualization, if anything, this caused me to loose several years of my life and without any beneficial differences in who I am or what I have become.
No, this has not been a necessary experience in my life...maybe it has for some people..I cannot speak for them.
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I agree with Xyzcf, Rebirth & Reintegration for me is more focussing on the present, on each day, at each moment.
Any "growth" I may have had could have occurred in a much less painful way. I had always been on a path of self actualization, if anything, this caused me to loose several years of my life and without any beneficial differences in who I am or what I have become.
Same here. Lost finances, lost health (now fortunately much better, but all the stress of MLC, court cases, nasty MLCer, etc did a number on me), lost lifestyle that I loved, etc.
Do we really need to be subject to the excruciating amounts of stress, and the damages it causes, that come with MLC? What for?
This is a strong comparison, but is like saying WWII, the Nazis and the camps had a purpose and were necessary for people to become better versions of themselves. Sure, the after WWII saw Europe having peace, but was it really necessary? And, currently, peace in Europe looks frails and people do not seem to have learned with past mistakes.
The idea that MLC is going to lead to a new better version of a person comes from Jung's ideas, even, like I said in my previous post, he never used the term MLC. It is just theories. There is no scientific basis to it. I know when they are out of crisis MLCers seem to become better version of themselves, but that may more due to all the horrots they may have been through and never want to go there again.
What is known is that prolonged stress will have neurologic impact. And that, when it comes to neurology, re-living a trauma is not a good thing, since it will ring alarm bells in the brain - PTSD is an easy way of understanding it - causing more and more damage.
The whole, lets re-live the trauma in order to cure/heal it is at odds with neurology/neuroscience and brain health. It is one of those, for me, bizarre things from therapy. It is illogic from a neurologic and wellbeing point of view.
And, of course, if one seems MLC has an emotional issue that has to be lived through, one will think that there is nothing to be done. Currently, there is nothing to be done because we don't know how/what to do. But that does not means it will always be like that.
I don't know if MLCers resolve their issues, my mini crisis didn't seem to have any issues to be solved. At least I do not recall any issues nor had resolved them. But what I was never managed to understand, and no one here or eleswhere as ever had a good enough answer, is how adding more problems/issues is going to make it less heavy for the MLCer and easier to solve any pre-existing issues. The consensus is that it makes it harder for them to solve whatever problems there may be. If so, then, MLC really brings not benefit. At least not on the issues level.
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Seems like many of us muse on the 'purpose' of MLC, if it is 'real', what causes it and what shape people are in if they ever return to someone close to the person they were. I don't know. I change my mind sometimes.
But I'd like to pull the discussion back to US, the LBS.
I think people come here mainly for three reasons; for hope, for advice and perhaps most of all to protect their sanity. None of us chose this, but we find ourselves here in a situation that often makes no sense at all. We are dealing with something that is incomprehensible to us. Something that, no matter what we do, we can't seem to cut through or work round. And something that most people we talk to don't get or dismiss as real. Finding your own reality making no sense is one thing; having your reality (that you can't ignore) dismissed by others is s$it icing on a s$it cake. No wonder so many of us can feel like we're losing the plot...and then we come here, and suddenly bits start to make sense. In a WTF way, true. It doesn't change what we have to deal with, but we start to see that we're not imagining this and we're not the only one.
When people said to me in the past "everything happens for a reason", I would want to punch them. So, saying there is a 'purpose' to LBS stages isn't meant like that. More that, having found ourselves in the horrific crazy situation, there seems to be a process for an LBS and that process seems to have a rhythm. Maybe it's an adjustment process that hopefully becomes a healing one. There are differences in our experiences - in our spouses, our situation, our personalities and priorities - but there seems to be a common thread too.
I just find myself musing (with the benefit of hindsight) if the different phases we go through as LBS naturally focus on an end point. If the sudden fracturing of our lives mirrors some of the stages of MLC.
Many of us start here by trying to 'get' MLC and focusing on our MLCer. But I wonder if the real purpose of this community is to support the LBS in their own recovery no matter what the MLCer does or the outcome. And if knowing that different things help (and why) at different phases for the LBS is also about validation and hope in the trenches.
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MLC is real. We are all dealing with its consequences.
More that, having found ourselves in the horrific crazy situation, there seems to be a process for an LBS and that process seems to have a rhythm. Maybe it's an adjustment process that hopefully becomes a healing one.
In that sense, yes, there is a purpose to the LBS journey. The process does have a rhythm. And I do think it becomes a healing one.
I just find myself musing (with the benefit of hindsight) if the different phases we go through as LBS naturally focus on an end point. If the sudden fracturing of our lives mirrors some of the stages of MLC.
An end point? The end point is healing, I think. Yes, I think some of the LBS stages mirror MLC ones, even the names do so. But the journeys are done differently. The LBS realises much faster than it has to heal and move forward. The MLCer remains trapped in MLC la la land for years on end.
But I wonder if the real purpose of this community is to support the LBS in their own recovery no matter what the MLCer does or the outcome.
Of course it is. That is obvious by what we do, regardless of the outcome.
And if knowing that different things help (and why) at different phases for the LBS is also about validation and hope in the trenches.
Yes. But what works for one LBS may not work for another.
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But what I was never managed to understand, and no one here or eleswhere as ever had a good enough answer, is how adding more problems/issues is going to make it less heavy for the MLCer and easier to solve any pre-existing issues. The consensus is that it makes it harder for them to solve whatever problems there may be. If so, then, MLC really brings not benefit. At least not on the issues level.
I would try to answer or at least give opinion. People project self in universe consciously and subconsciously, means in other people too. MLCers are possessed by shadow which is pure irrational, there is suppressed emotions a lot of them. They cannot cope with reality at all, so they are like people who drowning. So, they lost self. When you losing self, you are dead alive. You have nothing to lose, there coming doing things and behave like you never do, just to feel something, anything, feel alive. So, they not cure cause of crisis at all, they trying to fix self curing symptoms and there go long path of replay, they do not escape and avoid own shadow because they aren't aware of own shadow. Basically they killed old self - persona and believe that they are that impaired true self which is swallowed by shadow or that true weak self suck up shadow. If MLCer true week impaired self is swallowed by shadow then process is more intense and acting out is present.
They do not add more problems intentionally, that just happens. When they spend all things which they never did and there is no joy anymore in anything then they reaching point where is complete nothingness. That is the turning point, what else you can do ? Die literally or do what remain an that is turning inward and changing self. There is no other option.
So, crisis is not solving anything, it is destruction, but they aren't aware of destruction. From their point of view is not destruction, they are already dead and their whole old life is dead, so what else bad could happens to them ? Ant it is like literally like child birth, MLcer is in tunnel, there is no way to get back, bridge is burned, they can go just forward and to be born again.
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Thanks, Albatross
I suppose the LBS also deals with destruction - finances, family, home, security, relationships, sense of identity as a spouse, future plans - but for them, the destruction is a consequence of someone else's actions and emotions.
We go through our own death and rebirth in a sense, but simultaneously dealing with MLC external chaos too.
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Treasur
I think we , as LBS have to be reborn in some way. Just my thinking was i wanted my old W back, thats it. But now i see i may get my W back one day, but she will never be the same. So in some way if its ever going to work, we have change too.
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Yes, we change for different reasons, don't we? Maybe at first to try and get our spouses back or 'fix' the situation, then to survive, and finally to try to heal and build something new whether than includes our spouses or not.
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Treasur, so very true. Its hard. Im still very deeply in love with my W. But i catch myself thinking sometimes, what if she never comes back to me? We have to change either way, but we cant just lay in misery forever.
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No, we can't, Help, and it wouldn't help anything if we did.
I know you love your W. I love my H. It is about finding a both/and maybe, rather than an either/or. To love them and to move forward without denying current reality or knowing the eventual outcome.
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People project self in universe consciously and subconsciously, means in other people too.
I don't know if I'm helping or making this more confusing but reading Albratross's post reminded me of things the Leaver has said over the years, which seems to me show his progress through the tunnel, even though it's oh so slow....
Early days.... "WE" are on a different page. "WE" need space
About a year later, in the end stages of the divorce. "YOU' are really good at
making "ME" feel guilty. YOU are making everyone hate ME. (people I never met)
A year after that in a rare phone call ( We hadn't talked in about a year)
"You need to learn to accept that I have changed. I'm a different person now"
*** Classic projection, how would he know how I feel? We hadn't spoken in a year**
A few months ago....
"I look in the mirror every single fire-trucking morning, I think of you and the life we use to have, sometimes I actually get physically sick. I feel like I'm living someone else's life"
A few months after he said those words to me, he married the girl.
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People project self in universe consciously and subconsciously, means in other people too.
I don't know if I'm helping or making this more confusing but reading Albratross's post reminded me of things the Leaver has said over the years, which seems to me show his progress through the tunnel, even though it's oh so slow....
Early days.... "WE" are on a different page. "WE" need space
About a year later, in the end stages of the divorce. "YOU' are really good at
making "ME" feel guilty. YOU are making everyone hate ME. (people I never met)
A year after that in a rare phone call ( We hadn't talked in about a year)
"You need to learn to accept that I have changed. I'm a different person now"
*** Classic projection, how would he know how I feel? We hadn't spoken in a year**
A few months ago....
"I look in the mirror every single fire-trucking morning, I think of you and the life we use to have, sometimes I actually get physically sick. I feel like I'm living someone else's life"
A few months after he said those words to me, he married the girl.
Sure. Instead he get a grip and own personal misery, he projecting own misery in you. Pure blame. He demonize you still. But I see there also little bit of good. You are so important to him that he convincing self that you do not love him because how he feel, in case that you love him he would not feel miserable. What that's means is that when he eventually wake up and sort out own $h!te he will desperately want you ! You lucky thing :)
It is very similar with my W.
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Al,
Your words are so true. My wife mentioned awhile back if i thought somebody cd be possessed by something, i think she was referring to the devil. I said sure, i think its possible.
She said sometimes she feels something inside her has ahold of her and it is too strong to fight back. She said she eished she cd just beat it and be ok but i cant. I had no answer. Crazy $h!te, makes me want to grab her and shake it out of her, but i cant.
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But what I was never managed to understand, and no one here or eleswhere as ever had a good enough answer, is how adding more problems/issues is going to make it less heavy for the MLCer and easier to solve any pre-existing issues. The consensus is that it makes it harder for them to solve whatever problems there may be. If so, then, MLC really brings not benefit. At least not on the issues level.
Strangely enough, I read an interview the other day with an American actor who had a very abusive childhood that I think answers your question. He's been messed up all his life. But he said something in this interview that struck me, at least as an explanation for some of the MLCer's behavior. He talked about how he was about to go on the air and do this skit imitating a famous politician. He suddenly could not remember what he looked like, or what he sounded like, as he was having a flashback to his childhood that occupied his mind. So he cut himself, as he had a habit of doing. He explained the reason as it created a problem that was easier to solve than the stuff going on in his head. He had to wrap up the cut and bandage it. But this made him forget what was going on in his head, which he COULDN'T solve.
My husband spends an inordinate amount of time creating problematic situations over very minor things. He imagines many problems that don't simply exist and then goes about solving them. For example, I have a huge brand new fridge I got two years ago. I shared it with MIL. We had no problems sharing the fridge. One day, H got it in his head we were having problems between us about the fridge even though we weren't, so he brought home her old fridge that he had been using in his clinic, so she could have her own fridge and I have my own. That's when the problems started between her and I about the fridge. Where should we put this, where should we put that? But imagining there is a problem between your wife and mother over a fridge might be an easier problem to deal with than whatever is in your head.
So maybe the issues that they create serve a purpose to distract them from the more painful pre-existing issues.
And perhaps that is why detaching from their drama is said to be effective. Because at that point, they have no reason to focus on their self-created issues and the space in their brain left is filled with the issues they want to ignore.
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I have felt my H looks for/causes problems/issues in order to not deal with our current situation.. in some way he throws roadblocks up in order to not make a clear and decisive decision in regards to Me, our marriage, OW, divorce etc.. its like everything under the sun is more important that talking about the situation.. His job, our daughter, his health, anything he can find to change the subject...
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Very interesting GonerinGhana
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When I first joined this site I thought myself to be noble to be standing for my M despite my H’s out of character behaviors at the time. I have learned so much about what MLC is here. I am now here to recover from the PTSD it caused me and try to put a new life together with the old broken pieces of me. I am a LBS. The rest of the world doesn’t understand the trauma that has been inflicted on the LBS. This is my safe place for healing. I read much more than I post. In every sentence I want to find a word of hope or insight but mostly for relief I want to put this burden down. But where? The next stage can’t come soon enough!!!
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Maybe the MLC drama acts as a distraction for us too sometimes, a way to avoid looking at tough emotions or decisions that we need to own? I think I've done that sometimes, GIG
What stage do you think you're at now mostly, Shocked? Do you have a set of 'goalposts' for it?
And I so get the PTSD thing vs nobility! Weird things trigger me and I've had to look hard at unpicking what the fear is really about. Particularly as a lot of my fears came true bit-by-bit. But hey, I'm still here.
I think I started standing for my H. And then he got worse and farther away and I realised nothing I could do was going to help. Then I moved to standing for my M like holding it safe until he got 'better'. And then I realised my M was irretrievably dead because my H kept doing things to destroy it and D was necessary to protect me. Then I started standing for my survival and I realised I could do that and make some choices too. Then I moved to standing for me. And my right to still love my H silently. And I realised that standing for me is really about healing enough to rebuild my spirit and life, and the only thing I can control. But, gosh, it's hard sometimes isn't it?
I think the 'goalposts' of Acceptance for me are probably three things:
1. A really heartfelt emotional detachment from my H, almost to the point of wondering if I can still love him or remember who he was
2. An absolute focus on my healing - if it doesn't help me heal, I won't invest energy in it and if it stops me healing, I'll fight it or walk away
3. Beginning to feel a need to look up and out and forward, maybe that's the door to Renewal for me. (I'm not there yet but I get the odd glimmer)
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Thank you Albatross. I know all that that. I am aware of projection, self and shadow theories. But they are just that, theories. And they are things from psycology, not neurology/neuroscience/neurobiology. In neurology/neuroscience/neurobiology, more stress, more harm to brain and body.
I know they didn't cause the crisis. But they let it get out of hand. The crisis has a reason, for me excessive stress and depression.
You're wrong, some of then are aware of their shadow. Mr J calls it his Darth Vader side.
No, they do it debileratly. They know they are having an affair and that an affair will bring more problems. I don't agree that MLCers don't have a clue about anything they are doing. If they didn't had a clue, they wouldn't feel guilty. One only feels guilty is one has awareness.
Die literally or do what remain an that is turning inward and changing self. There is no other option.
There is another option, remain in MLC forever. I have never heard of a MLCer literally dying for MLC.
I don't know about other MLCer, but when he has moments of awareness, Mr J knows he has destroyed everything. So, he is aware of the destruction. And I suspect that is the case for more MLCers. Because, again, if they weren't aware, they wouldn't feel guilty.
What you have wrote is the classic theory for self and shadow, but I don't agree with it. I understand it and know it, just don't think that is the case. Because for me MLC is not a self/shadow issue, it is a stress and depression one.
And I don't see MLCers as so clueless about their actions.
You know my husband has been in the tunnel for 12 years and left 11 years, don't you? No one needs those many years to grow/become their new self, whatever you want to call it. He is just trapped in a perpertual cycle of drinking and partying and being unhappy of his own doing.
But you still didn't answer how end up with a much bigger pile of problems and issues to deal with is of any help for the MLCer.
I don't buy the "oh, they didn't knew it was wrong". They know it is all very, very wrong. They know they are having an affair, etc and it is all wrong.
What they may be is incaple of escaping the addiction that their lifestyle caused.
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Anjae,
My W was so ate up with guilt, she cd barely function during her A. She was having panic attacks, cdnt sleep, cdnt eat. I didnt have clue what was going on till i found out. Then it was some kind of releif to her after that, i think she was glad i did find out in some way
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Help, do you mean you wife no longer is with OM? Or when the affair was a secret?
Mr J hid is not well functioning from me, but wrote about it to OW1. Of course never saying why he wasn't sleeping. I never noticed he wasn't sleeping. I guess he would wake up in the middle of the night. He never stop eating.
What he did was become very, very agressive. Even physically. His affair had been found out, in his case, only made his nastier. Not all MLCes react the same way.
I think it is better when they aren't monster and don't become agressive.
The guit will drive them to all sorts of crazy things, the new even crazier things lead to more guilt and it is the hamster in the wheel.
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When her affair was a secret. After i found out, she changed, for a little while, was remourceful a little, said she was sorry for pain it caused me, but not sorry it happened, said she thought it had to happen. She says affair is over, but idk. Said it was over before i found out, but i dont beleive that. Last 2 months she has went back in tunnel i guess, monstering again at first, im the worst thing ever happened to her again. But prolly my fault, when she showed me some atrenrion i fell rt back in, i pushed her back. But she did feel some sort of relief when i found out, that was very strange to me, like she cdnt stop till i found out
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Treasr, thank you for your reply to my post! I would say I am mostly at acceptance but the shock of what he’s done will never go away. I don’t want my old M back or him as he is now. I just wanted the cycles of loneliness and being so hyper vigilant to go away. I don’t stay there but they come and go all day long. We are similar. Our BD are about 2 months apart and they are vanishers. I divorced sooner back in 2/17. Mostly bc if his spending. I wanted to protect myself. That may be the single most important thing I learn on this site. That and detaching. That was single hardest thing to do!!! Your goalposts are very good. I will have to think of mine. I think I can learn a lot from you!!
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I've been musing on Ego too as the LBS.https://thestagesandlessonsofmidlife.org/a-self-inflated-ego-and-the-midlife-crisis/
I think (understandably) we focus on the source of the 'bomb' initially. It hurts, we want to fix it or for the problem to disappear. When we get to anger or resentment or fear, we focus on the MLCer in a different way - we judge them, hate what they're doing, blame them for the pain and chaos.
It is uncomfortable, but our ego (how can you do this to me) and our sense of entitlement (I don't deserve this, all you need to do is listen to me) is part of the LBS struggle too, isn't it really? It makes me squirm but maybe my MLC H is 'right' that leaving me was the best thing for him? How can I know? It wasn't what I wanted and it has created some horrid consequences for me, true. But how much of my pain has been about Me and what I think I deserve?
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This might be worth a look too http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=6.msg388#msg388
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Thank you for your reply, Help. Maybe it is a relief for a MLCer (or any other type of cheating spouse) to be found/discoved.
I don't think it is a question of ego, it is more of a fact. How could they gave done what they did? Ego or not, the truth is what MLCers did is beyond wrong and tryly hurt their spouse. And the damages caused by the MLCer to their LBS are real. Entitlement? None of us, or anyone else in the same situation, deserved this.
... maybe my MLC H is 'right' that leaving me was the best thing for him?
For him? Yes, maybe. Who knows? But a marriage is not one person's wants and one person being more or have the right to hurt the other and do as they please, a marriage is a commitment and a partnership. It is loyalty and be there for the other. Thingh the MLCer completely broke.
But how much of my pain has been about Me and what I think I deserve?
I have no idea. Are you trying to say you think you deserved what happened and that you think you shouldn't had been hurt the way you were? If so, that is very weird.
MLCers are 100% responsible for the chaos, hurt and pain their actions caused. There is no such thing as letting them off the off of accountability for what they did.
It is up to us to overcome the pain and hurt caused by them, but the matters are separated issues.
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Bit more food for LBS thought?
What are the stages of the loss process-
A loss experience involves the following five stages of emotional response: (1) denial, (2) bargaining, (3) anger, (4) despair, (5) acceptance.
-. These five stages can occur in either the sequence presented or in any variety of sequence.
-. The stages can recur during a loss experience.
-. One stage can last a long time, uninterrupted.
-. The loss process can last anywhere from three months to three years.
-. These stages of grief are normal and are to be expected.
-. It is healthier to accept these stages and recognize them for what they are rather than to fight them off or to ignore them.
-. Working out each stage of the loss response ensures a return to emotional health and adaptive functioning.
-. Getting outside support and help during the grieving process will assist in gaining objectivity and understanding.
Stage 1. Denial
-. We deny that the loss has occurred.
-. We ignore the signs of the loss.
-. We begin to use:
1. Magical thinking
By magic this loss will go away.
2. Excessive fantasy
Nothing is wrong; this loss is just imagined; when I wake up everything will be OK.
3. Regression
We feel childlike and want others to reassure us that nothing is wrong.
4. Withdrawal
We avoid facing the loss and avoid those people who confront us with the truth.
5. Rejection
We reject the truth and those who bring us the news of our loss.
Stage 2. Bargaining
-. We bargain or strike a deal with God, ourselves, or others to make the loss go away.
-. We promise to do anything to make this loss go away.
-. We agree to take extreme measures in order to make this loss disappear.
-. We lack confidence in our attempts to deal with the loss, looking elsewhere for answers.
-. We begin to:
1. Shop around
We look for the ``right'' agent with the ``cure'' for our loss.
2. Gamble
We begin to take chances on ``cures'' for our loss.
3. Take risks
We put ourselves in jeopardy financially, emotionally, and physically to get to an answer or ``cure'' for our loss.
4. Sacrifice
In our pursuit of a ``cure'' to change the loss we ignore our real needs.
Stage 3. Anger
-. We become angry with God, with ourselves, or with others over our loss.
-. We become outraged and incensed over the steps that must be taken to overcome our loss.
-. We pick out ``scapegoats'' on which to vent our anger, e.g., the doctors, hospitals, clerks, helping agencies, rehabilitation specialists, etc.
-. We begin to use:
1. Self-blaming
We blame ourselves for this loss.
2. Switching blame
We blame others for this loss.
3. Blaming the victim
We blame the victim for leaving us.
4. Aggressive anger
We vent our blame and rage aggressively on the closest target.
5. Resentment
Our hurt and pain turns into resentment toward involved in our loss event including the victim.
-. Anger is a normal stage. It must be expressed and resolved; if it is suppressed and held in, it will become ``Anger in'' leading to a maladaptive condition of depression that drains our emotional energy.
Stage 4. Despair
-. We become overwhelmed by the anguish, pain, and hurt of our loss; we are thrown into the depths of our emotional response.
-. We can begin to have uncontrollable spells of crying, sobbing, and weeping.
-. We can begin to go into spells of deep silence, morose thinking, and deep melancholy.
-. We can begin to experience:
1. Guilt
We feel responsible for our loss.
2. Remorse
We feel sorry for our real or perceived ``bad past,'' deeds for which this loss is some form of retribution or punishment.
3. Loss of hope
The news of our loss becomes so overwhelming that we lose all hope of being able to return to the calm and order our life held prior to the loss.
4. Loss of faith and trust
This loss can make us lose and trust our belief in the goodness and mercy of God and mankind.
-. We need support to assist us in gaining the objectivity to reframe and regroup our lives. If we are not able to work through our despair, we risk experiencing events such as mental illness, divorce/separation, suicide, inability to cope with the aftermath of our loss, rejection of the family member who has experienced the loss, and detachment, poor bonding, or unhealthy interaction with the parties involved in our loss.
Stage 5. Acceptance
-. We begin to reach a level of awareness and understanding of the nature of our loss.
-. We can now:
-. describe the terms and conditions involved in our loss.
-. fully describe the risks and limitations involved in the treatment or rehabilitation for the loss involved.
-. cope with our loss.
-. test the concepts and alternatives available to us in dealing with this loss.
-. handle the information surrounding this loss in a more appropriate way.
-. We begin to use:
- rational thinking
We are able to refute our irrational beliefs or fantasy thinking in order to address our loss from a rational perspective.
- adaptive behavior
We begin to adjust our lives to incorporate the changes necessary after our loss.
- appropriate emotion
We begin to express our emotional responses freely and are better able to verbalize the pain, hurt, and suffering we have experienced.
- patience and self-understanding
We recognize that it takes time to adjust to the loss and give ourselves time to ``deal'' with it. We set a realistic time frame in which to learn to cope with our changed lives.
- self-confidence
As we begin to sort things out and recognize the stages of loss as natural and expected, we gain the confidence needed for personal growth.
-. We can be growing in acceptance and still experience denial, bargaining, anger, and despair.
-. To come to full acceptance we need support to gain objectivity and clarity of thinking. It is often useful to gain such assistance from those who have experienced a similar loss. For example, groups of parents who have experienced the death of a child or who have had a child with a developmental disability.
-. Peer support from strangers is often the best way for a person to deal with the grieving process.
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I've been musing on what we feel we need at each stage, that desperate searching feeling that often we share here.
Denial - what will make this all go away?
Bargaining - what is this and how can I stop/fix my MLCer?
Anger - is it my fault, MLC vs are they just a horrible person?
Despair - how can I survive this?
Acceptance - how can I live with it?
Renewal - what should I do now?
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Attaching. X
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T, that points are right on the mark! I have been though all those questions. I am definitely at how do I live with it. I am praying my move with help me get to what do I do next with enthusiasm!!!!
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Just to point out that this topic has been a sticky for some time and there are loads of really good information on the previous threads which I started a couple of years ago and OP started the 4th thread from which this pasted info arises. It might be helpful to merge this thread with the 4th to avoid too much duplication and confusion.
New thread
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=8078.msg620074#new
Previous threads
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=2625.0
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=5734.0
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=5789.0
From Stayed
I thought I would add the stages of grief that we all go through with a relationship breakup.
1. Shock: "What the hell just happened?"
2. Denial: "This is so not happening."
3. Isolation: "I just want to sit in this all by myself."
4. Anger: "I hate you for breaking my heart!"
5. Bargaining: "What will it take to get him/her back?"
6. Depression: "I will never get over him/her."
7. Acceptance: "I understand why I was with him/her, why I'm not now, and that I will be better than just OK."
Some keep it a bit simpler:
1. Denial
2. Anger
3. Bargaining
4. Depression
5. Acceptance
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It might be helpful to merge this thread with the 4th to avoid too much duplication and confusion.
I agree - I will do it when the poll expires.
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Good idea. I guess I just wanted to raise the profile of thinking about us generally as LBS - which we can control more - as opposed to the understandable focus on MLC
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But how much of my pain has been about Me and what I think I deserve?
I have no idea. Are you trying to say you think you deserved what happened and that you think you shouldn't had been hurt the way you were? If so, that is very weird.
MLCers are 100% responsible for the chaos, hurt and pain their actions caused. There is no such thing as letting them off the off of accountability for what they did.
It is up to us to overcome the pain and hurt caused by them, but the matters are separated issues.
I think what I was trying to say is that part of the pain is also about my beliefs and expectations of what 'should' be happening in my life. That there is a temptation to blame the MLC spouse (and understandably easy to do!) but I have a funny uncomfortable feeling that it also sucks me towards that rescuer/persecutor/victim triangle too. Do I think I did anything as a human to 'deserve' some of what has happened? No, of course not. But I do think stuff happens to us which isn't because of us too.
Part of the tension between LBS & MLC is about ego though and who is 'right' maybe. I couldn't see that at all until recently because I just wanted certain outcomes - my H well, my life back, no more pain. Meanwhile I guess my STBXH has/had a list of his own wants too. Detachment is perhaps also about accepting that (as crazily as they handle it) the MLCs sense of being 'right' butts heads against the LBS's sense of being 'right' too.
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I think what I was trying to say is that part of the pain is also about my beliefs and expectations of what 'should' be happening in my life.
But that is perfectly normal. We build a certain life, we married, we expect certain things from it.
There is nothing wrong with that. The whole idea of no expectations does not make much sense. A married person expects their spouse to be a spouse.
Detachment is just that, detachment.
I think you are somehow overthinking some of this stuff. ;) :)
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Maybe, but it was a lightbulb for me. That if I don't want to be a victim of life or things I can't control, if I want to feel like me again instead of this battered blinking creature, I might have to let go of some of my need to be 'right'.
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Detachment is perhaps also about accepting that (as crazily as they handle it) the MLCs sense of being 'right' butts heads against the LBS's sense of being 'right' too.
Interesting concept. Both sides think they're right. Bound to lead to conflict.
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Great insights, Treasur. You are going to come through this so strong. :)
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What helped you most at the different stages? If you had to pick one tip/tool for each, what would it be?
For me?
Denial - what will make this all go away? Walking
Bargaining - what is this and how can I stop/fix my MLCer? Finding out enough to know I couldn't fix it
Anger - is it my fault, MLC vs are they just a horrible person? Detaching
Despair - how can I survive this? Prayer mostly and bit of IC
Acceptance - how can I live with it? NC and more detachment
Renewal - what should I do now? Not there yet...
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Any tips? Any more votes?
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The order confuses me but I cycle like lance Armstrong so it all comes back around right now.
I will say what I'm finding is more annoyance with W so I called it anger. But its not the anger I had a couple weeks ago.
Bargaining still pushes its way at me but I'm cutting down the contact to necessary talk only. I just remind myself I've already made myself clear to W and nothing more I can do there.
Acceptance...not so much. I just try to keep an open mind each day that this may go well, it may not. Just need to keep working on me.
Depression is getting better since joining this group. It hits me worst when I wake up in the middle of the night. I got on here and read through some threads and it helped...
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I think we are all expert cyclers now, Cold River!
For some of us, anger is not quite the right word...maybe resentment or frustration.
My experience is that it feels quite different to be primarily at a stage like depression or denial versus cycling back to it for a bit. Like a paler version and I don't stay there as long. So I'm probably at acceptance (finally) but if I flip back to denial (as I do), it maybe lasts for a few hours at most and I can wrestle myself out and back to acceptance. In the early days when I was just reeling with shock, and stuck in denial, it was like my head couldn't do more than just go 'What? What?'. I could barely put one foot in front of the other, felt like I'd been hit by a bus.
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Something about Renewal, or getting to it perhaps.
This talk is about living after someone you love kills themselves, so not exactly the same for most of us. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R3FKQNSYoxw The talk is less about loss, and much more about what you do when nothing makes sense but you're still here moving forward with your life. (For me, losing my H as he disappeared into MLC felt a bit like he'd 'killed' the person I knew so it's a frame that makes sense to me). I recognised a lot of what she described and found her 'list' really simple, practical and helpful.
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But that is perfectly normal. We build a certain life, we married, we expect certain things from it.
There is nothing wrong with that. The whole idea of no expectations does not make much sense. A married person expects their spouse to be a spouse.
Detachment is just that, detachment.
I agree. I don't know who started this "No Expectations" mantra but I think it is nonsense. I expect certain things from my spouse. Whether he delivers on that is another matter. If you read HB carefully, you will see where she repeatedly talks about our role in helping them to grow up. That we have to set boundaries on bad behavior. Well what is that other than expectations?
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If you read HB carefully, you will see where she repeatedly talks about our role in helping them to grow up
There is no denying the usefulness of HB's posts and past threads. However I advise caution against using her comments as gospel. HB is accurate in many ways but I find her comments about LBS's helping the MLCer to " grow up" as singularly unhelpful and patronising.
No expectations is referred to communication with the MLCer especially if OW is in play. It means that every time an MLCer contacts the LBS and is "nice" or "normal" it helps the LBSer to stay detached and to not read too much into any form of communication as far as their mindset or relationship is concerned and when they are in replay especially.
It does not mean that you never have any expectations - that is impossible but by learning not to expect things that would be "difficult" for an MLCer - that way lies detachment.
For example most if not, all MLCers who return admittedly return "half cooked" The "no expectations" rule helps the LBSer not to treat the R as though all is now well and place normal conventional expectations upon them. It is important if reconnection is to follow its course to reconciliation that the LBS still stands back, places no unrealistic expectations upon the MLCer and gives them the space to make the choice to return to the marriage and to learn that they have to do the work.
If the LBSer is not detached when the MLCer returns home (assuming half cooked) then expectations become an over-riding control mechanism and the MLCer either runs again or runs for good!
This is what is meant by no expectations.
Of course if the MLCer really wants back in and starts to do the work then the LBS is perfectly entitled to set the boundaries and expectations. The LBS hopefully by then is whole enough to both live with and without the MLCer.
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I'm not a fan of the idea that the LBS plays a part in the MLCer 'growing up" either - sounds like a fixer alert to me and the exact opposite of the idea that it is their process. I get the principle that MLC is a process of maturation, of evolving to address 'unfinished' business in the MLCer's emotional development though.
On expectations, maybe it would be more accurate to say 'none of the old expectations' apply in MLC! And there is a risk of being hurt or confused if you either apply the old familiar ones or try to guess MLC script ones in advance either because our spouses can cycle so much. Of course in any normal healthy relationship, especially a long-standing one, we have expectations of each other and as individuals we have our own boundaries.
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HB for me has been the best source of advice, hands down.
In reflection, I let my H act too childish throughout our marriage. I live with my MIL now for two years, and I know how my FIL treated him and her. She will try to stop his more extreme behavior but she doesn't expect him to act like a respectful adult either in his day-to-day interactions and frankly that is where she failed him and I really have developed a bad opinion of her parenting through all this.
I'm not mothering him, but I take a timeout from him and refuse to interact with him when he is behaving badly, whether it is toward me or anyone else. I should have done this years ago. He did learn how to act adult but it took a long time over the years and the MLC has been a relapse.
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The underpinning of this forum and the DB one is based on Solution-Focused Therapy. Because in my day job I'm an executive coach, I've taken a look to see how it might help me. More info here https://www.sagepub.com/sites/default/files/upm-binaries/41972_9780857028907.pdf
The first thing that struck me is about defining the 'problem', or just picking one to work on. I think most of us start with 'I want MLC to go away' or 'I want my spouse back to normal' or 'I want my spouse to do x'. But of course we can't 'fix' something not in our control, so we're on a hiding to nothing with that and it feeds our fear and feelings of helplessness.
The second thing is that the problem, or the priority problem, often changes as we work through the LBS stages and as we need to respond to new events.
So, as an experiment - if you want to play - I'm going to ask you WHAT IS YOUR BIGGEST PROBLEM RIGHT NOW that you want to find a solution for? And remember, it is about a problem that your action can change in some way, things you can control. So, I can't make my STBXH talk to me, but I could decide that I have things I need to voice and figure out how/who/where/when will make that better for me.
Try and ignore why - just aim for a short factual sentence that says 'Right now, my biggest problem I'd like to tackle is.....'
I'll have a think too and come back and post mine, and maybe we can learn Solution-Focused Action together? Who wants to join in?
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Right now, my biggest problem is..... how to build a different life when I liked a lot of the old one.
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Right Now My Biggest Problem Is......Keeping a positive outlook with my situation ..
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No expectations is referred to communication with the MLCer especially if OW is in play. It means that every time an MLCer contacts the LBS and is "nice" or "normal" it helps the LBSer to stay detached and to not read too much into any form of communication as far as their mindset or relationship is concerned and when they are in replay especially.
This is the real meaning of No Expectations, but it is not how it is often, if not most times, used around here. No Expectations is used to pretty much anything, pre, during and after MLC.
We can't help the MLCer to "grow up". The MLCer has to do that alone.
Right now, my biggest problem is..... Nothing.
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No Goner, it's not mothering him. Mothering them is treating them like a child. They are adults.
It's about setting person boundaries that RCR talks about.
If you don't like how their acting, what ever that action is, you set the boundary that you will not interact with them.
It's up to you to let them know what you will accept and what you won't.
If this helps them grow up, fine. If not well at least you don't have to tolerate their unpleasant actions.
Walk away and ignore them.
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I started seeing a therapist a few months after BD because I needed help figuring out how to survive my wife's MLC. My goal hasn't changed. I've learned along the way that Little MBIB doesn't share that goal. So I guess you might say part of my goal is persuading Little MBIB to share my goal. That's what I'm working on now with my therapist.
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Anyone else want to play before I pose the next question to help us unpick the 'big' problem?
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Right now my biggest problem is... always trying to reach out to my husband when I am sad.
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Right now my biggest problem is... always trying to reach out to my husband when I am sad.
Being Sad is certainly understandable but it is all within YOU and has nothing to do with your husband.
Pick apart SAD and figure out its components and you can work on not being in that state.
You don't NEED your husband to pull you out of SAD.
That is the same as him needing an OW to pull him out of his unhappiness.
I hope that makes sense.
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Is the real problem about being sad? Or is it that you reach out and it doesn't give you the result you want?
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Right now my biggest problem is....the past keeps popping up. As much logically I know my xH is having a MLC, the shock and the hurt of the betrayal still sticks to me like glue. I just keep trying to shake it off. These feelings from my old life are embedded deeply.
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Shocked, I think that's the biggest problem for many of us. Trying to comprehend how our world could have changed so quickly and how our spouse could have changed into somebody so different from the person we knew. The feelings from our previous life truly are deeply embedded.
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OK. Step 2...now we describe the problem as factually as we can. How often does it happen? What are you doing or not doing when it is happening? What else happens? What else? Who notices?
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OK. Step 2...now we describe the problem as factually as we can.
The problem is that I still experience overwhelming pain related to my wife's BD
How often does it happen?
Way too often. Usually multiple times each day.
What are you doing or not doing when it is happening?
It's random. I never know when it's going to surface.
What else happens?
Sometimes rubbery legs, sometimes feeling like I've been gut-punched, sometimes tears, sometimes my head feels like it's being squeezed in a vise.
What else?
I try to go numb. Sometimes it helps, sometimes I can't get there quickly enough. Lately I've been using ice cream to help me cope. Now I'm thinking of turning to carrot cake instead. :D
I've been thinking about going off the antidepressants so I can try using alcohol.
Who notices?
Nobody knows how bad it is except my therapist and those who read my posts on HS. Nobody wants to know so the rest of the world only sees my mask.
Is this stuff going to be on the test? :D
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My mother, who has been through more than anybody I know, including this site, said to me just days after BD, "Oh Nah, he's just a man that left, go outside and work on your garden, you love your gardens"
She was right.
There's another stage that we don't have in a category.
Realizing that all this pain is really truly about us and not them.
What is love? Is love about them or is it how we feel when we are with them? If it was really truly about them, then if they said they don't want to be with us anymore, we would let them go with a smile. Many of us don't do that though, do we? Nope, we scream, and cry and try to come up with reasons why they left. In our heads we feel if they come back then all our pain would go away. Would it?
Why are we in so much pain? Maybe it's more about our own fears, fear of abandonment, fear of being alone, fear of being alone as we age, fear of death.
The sooner we realize what our real fears are, maybe we can stand again.... not stand for them, or for our marriage (which is now dead), but stand for ourselves.
I don't have an answer how to make the pain go away.... but I know what isn't the answer...
The answer is not them.
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Maybe it's because we lost our best friend with no warning and no logical reason and we miss them.
My mother, who has been through more than anybody I know, including this site, said to me just days after BD, "Oh Nah, he's just a man that left, go outside and work on your garden, you love your gardens"
I apologize in advance but I'm going to modify this slightly.
"My mother, who has been through more than anybody I know, including this site, said to me just days after BD, "Oh Nah, he's just a man that died, go outside and work on your garden, you love your gardens""
Really?
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My mother's first husband was murdered, yes murdered, when she was pregnant with my sister.
Was I upset when she said it.... yes.
Was she allowed? yes.
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I sympathize with your mother and feel badly for her because of what she went through. Nobody should have to go through something like that. I also sympathize with you and feel badly for you because of what you went through.
Your mother's statement diminished and invalidated your feelings. Was she allowed to say it? Of course. Was it insensitive and possibly unhelpful for you? Probably. You had just received a devastating blow and you were told to go work in your gardens and put it behind you. The modification I made to your mother's statement didn't even reflect the true impact of what you went through because, not only did your husband in effect die, but he also betrayed you in the worst possible way.
IMO this is worse than experiencing the death of a spouse because it's so totally incomprehensible. The death of a spouse, even sudden death, can be understood. The world sometimes sucks, bad things happen, but how do you explain MLC to yourself, your family, and your friends, especially when you're told to go work in your garden, that he was just a man who left?
Like I said, I feel badly for your mother but I deeply sympathize with you. You needed and deserved support that you didn't get and that makes me sad.
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I only mentioned my mother's first husband.
Her second husband was my father.
He was a MLCer. He lied, cheated, and cheated and cheated. My father told me that the reason for their divorce was that my mother had "communication issues" :o Too bad for him that the ow happened to be my friend's mother, so I knew the truth. Then he disappeared and left my mother penniless (he had his own business and was an expert at hiding money). I could fill pages with the sh!t my father pulled. The Leaver came in and saved the day. The Leaver told my mother that he would always be there for us, that my father was not a man.
So, she had been through it all. (oh believe me there is more, yet still lives a life full of laughter and kindness)
Yes it was early but I still stand that she was right. She's my mom, she's always right.
The point of my first post is.... if it was only about love for our spouse's than we would let them go without any pain. If love is selfless and they want freedom, then we would freely let them go.
It's not about them, though, it's about us and our fears of abandonment ,fear of aging, and fear of dying alone.
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I acknowledge your point and now I'll repeat mine. My wife was my best friend and I miss her. I'm not afraid of dying alone. I'm afraid of living alone, and without her I always feel alone. I could probably find a girlfriend. I think I might have enough to offer to make that possible, but I would still be alone. I'd just be alone while spending my time with somebody else. I couldn't do that. For me, that would be worse than being by myself.
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I acknowledge your point and now I'll repeat mine. My wife was my best friend and I miss her. I'm not afraid of dying alone. I'm afraid of living alone, and without her I always feel alone. I could probably find a girlfriend. I think I might have enough to offer to make that possible, but I would still be alone. I'd just be alone while spending my time with somebody else. I couldn't do that. For me, that would be worse than being by myself.
Hi Brain, I just want to say that I understand your feelings .My H was my BF and I miss him...
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So again, that's my point.
It's about us.
I loved the Leaver. He was my first and my only until he walked out that door. He was my best friend, my partner, my everything, too much of my everything, I built my entire world around him and the kids, and loved every minute of it.
HE wanted to leave. I loved him enough to let him go.
Did it hurt? Hurt like Hell but it was what he wanted.
Now that he's gone what should I do? Spend the rest of my days wallowing in my own pity? What kind of life is that?
My daughter left, my in-laws left (his sister was like a sister to me), friends of 25+ years turned their backs....
It sucks, but I can't control them, I can only control myself. Would the old husband want me to moan and groan until I die, I sure wouldn't want that for him.
Why do you need "her" or "him" to not be alone, whether you are with someone else or by yourself? Did we put that much on their shoulders? That we depended on them for our happiness? Again, that's not about them, it's about us.
We need to be responsible for our own happiness.
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Of course it is about us and how MLC has impacted(impacts) us. We are human, we feel things, we get hurt, we are/were in pain. That is perfectly normal.
There is a difference between being happy and being alone and between being alone and feeling lonely. I see nothing wrong with wanting to have a companion/not wanting to be alone.
You have a boyfriend, Nah. Therefore, you are not alone. I don't think is is fair of you to be dismissive of those who do not like or want to be alone. How long did you spend alone? Really alone, no man whatsoever in your life? No husband, no one night stands, no dates, no boyfriend? A few months? One year? A couple of years?
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My brain understands your point Nah. It's my heart that's having a hard time. I've told myself that I should find somebody else if I don't like being alone. Part of me wants to do it but I know it would be a mistake. I guess I need to wallow some more. Not in self-pity but in self-imposed loneliness.
Why do you need "her" or "him" to not be alone, whether you are with someone else or by yourself?
I can't answer this question but it's how I feel. I also still miss my mother and my father even though my mother died in 2003 and my father died in 2007. I suspect I always will miss them but I don't believe that means that I was depending on them for my happiness. It means that their deaths left big holes in my life, holes that seem small compared to the hole that has appeared following the loss of my wife. I know the holes left by my parent's deaths are permanent. I don't believe I will ever find anyone who can fill the holes they left behind. I don't know what to think about the hole my wife left behind.
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Last night, Saturday night, I felt very lonely as I often do on weekends. 8 years and there is nothing that I can do to prevent that feeling. Fortunately, I do often have activities on the weekend...but I still feel lonely. I miss the life we had. I miss him.
MBIBMy wife was my best friend and I miss her. I'm not afraid of dying alone. I'm afraid of living alone, and without her I always feel alone.
There are some of us who are always going to feel this way. Some of us, whose belief system doesn't allow them to become involved in another relationship, some of us who are still too broken to be in another relationship. Some of us who might not be able to find another partner....lord knows I have seen friends enter into relationships with devastating results. There are some of us who still deeply love our spouses....so how does that work in a new relationship?
No amount of logic or argument is going to change my mind or my heart. I truly think this is wrong, for him, for me and for our family. The best I can do is accept it and put up with the loneliness as best as I can.
NahHE wanted to leave. I loved him enough to let him go.
Sorry Nah....I do not buy this at all. We did not love them enough to let them go..they left and we had no say in it. They never asked our permission or our view of things.They left of their own accord and never looked back.
Did you really think you could have stopped him from going?
Perhaps, if I had even believed 5% that we were not right for one another, that our marriage was a sham, that we should not be together...I could have felt happier with the end result......but I never agreed to this and I do not like the situation I was left in...totally against my will. I continue to miss what I wanted in life, a family, to be loved by my husband, to grow old together and to continue to live our lives with one another.
MBIBMaybe it's because we lost our best friend with no warning and no logical reason and we miss them.
As I said, some of us are not wired to be able to have another relationship. We are all different and there are quite a few who I know who feel the same way as MBIB and I do...another relationship isn't going to "fix" this.
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No he did not ask my permission. What I'm saying is to let go. I wanted to hold on, but I was only hurting myself.
....yes I never went long without a man in my life.
As MBIB said, having someone or not makes no difference of being lonely. That is within ourselves.
If I didn't let go of the Leaver, whether or not I had a boyfriend would have zero impact on my loneliness. I was lonely with my first boyfriend, bc I hadn't let go yet. I was still wallowing in my own self-pity. I happened to meet my current boyfriend when I was truly letting go.
This thread is about stages, I think that is how this discussion started. The only way to get to the next stage, acceptance, is to really let go. The only other choice is to wallow until death.
We often talk about them getting stuck. We talk about them projecting.
Maybe we are the ones projecting.
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Nah
As MBIB said, having someone or not makes no difference of being lonely. That is within ourselves
We live in a society that often is about couples. When I was a couple, I had many invitations, many events to attend. I belong to a group of people who live alone...and we all agree that once we were no longer a couple, the invitations are few and far between. Never the less, it is not about invitations, but the intimacy of having someone to share in your life with. We can be totally ok with ourselves and our loneliness and it is fine to express, here on a thread about stages that acceptance and loneliness are a reality.
Nah, you are not acknowledging that many LBSers feel that marriage is indissoluble and so we are in a situation that doesn't allow us to be in a relationship with someone who is not our spouse.. We are not all like you and as I stated, there are many many reasons why we feel "lonely"
The only way to get to the next stage, acceptance, is to really let go. The only other choice is to wallow until death.
We often talk about them getting stuck. We talk about them projecting.
Maybe we are the ones projecting.
Letting go..it is not that easy for some people. You don't just wake up and say, ok, I let go. And indeed, even when you "let go", whatever that means, there are still the realities of living alone. It does not mean that we have not "accepted"...no I got to that stage a very long time ago. I don't even know what you mean by "projecting". What am I projecting?
If I had cancer, I may be able to accept the diagnosis but that doesn't mean I have to like it.
I have a shoulder issue, I should have surgery but it means 6 weeks in a sling and not being able to use of my right arm. No driving. That is just one thing that makes it being alone difficult, especially as I am aging, because the idea of being unable to use my right arm for at least 6 weeks and longer due to rehab seems somewhat impossible to me without having someone who is able to be there with me. Yes, I have wonderful friends...but I learned after my knee replacement that they think I'm ok...asking for help is difficult and I really had to tell them what I needed....it was a horrible experience for me.
Nah The only other choice is to wallow until death.
That is pretty negative...there are many other choices in how we live our lives...we do not "wallow" because we continue to remain faithful to our sacramental marriage. My life is anything but wallowing.
I will not "accept" that somehow I am a failure because I still miss and love my husband. Whether you mean it or not, that is the way you come across to me...that somehow we have "failed" at accepting what has happened instead of celebrating that we have the strength to show the world that families and marriages are not disposable.
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There are some of us who still deeply love our spouses....so how does that work in a new relationship?
This question really sums up my problem. Any new relationship would be a sham, just like the MLC relationships.
This discussion has been interesting but I'd like to know when we're going to get back to Treasur's problem solving technique.
OK. Step 2...now we describe the problem as factually as we can.
The problem is that I still experience overwhelming pain related to my wife's BD
This problem of mine hasn't gone away and I think I've ruled out replacing my wife with somebody else as a potential solution. That may work well for some people but some of us, including me, aren't wired that way. :(
Now what Treasur? I hope I don't sound needy if I ask what is step 3?
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There are some of us who still deeply love our spouses....so how does that work in a new relationship?
I don't know. But it seems to work for some, that still deeply love their spouse and are in a new relationship.
This question really sums up my problem. Any new relationship would be a sham, just like the MLC relationships.
This discussion has been interesting but I'd like to know when we're going to get back to Treasur's problem solving technique.
The problem is that I still experience overwhelming pain related to my wife's BD
But, in a few years, things may change. Or may not, but I hope they will. Keep feeling overwhelming pain for years on end is not a good thing.
Being unable to use our funcional arm for 6 months or longer is almost impossible if one is alone.
For me the thing become that I love being alone too much. It is not a good thing. Humans are meant to be paired and I would like a new relationship.
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Interesting...
Some days I feel that I have the weight of the world on my shoulders in terms of problems and I apply my individual technique of facing it and solving (or at least putting some effort in that direction) what I can, letting go of what I can't.
Most of my problems are practical, however, I hear you all about the problems we face as we age and have to go at life alone. My super independent mother is finding things VERY difficult without my father.
It is true that we live in a paired society and she finds herself having to rely on me or my brothers for assistance in varied areas. On my part, I find it difficult to shoulder her dependency in addition to my own issues of being alone for everything.
Letting go - I guess it is different for everyone, for me, it is intentionally letting it go to God, admitting that there is nothing I can do, remembering that God sees me and He loves me.
I never agreed to this and I do not like the situation I was left in...totally against my will. I continue to miss what I wanted in life, a family, to be loved by my husband, to grow old together and to continue to live our lives with one another.
This is one of the things I am constantly giving up to God and His will - I don't see any way to fix it myself and I am not open to another relationship.
So, I guess I don't have any problems, right?
I am not bitter, nor do I have time to wallow, I am too busy! The longing for a restored relationship is still there as well as the loneliness. I can't consider it a 'problem' because there is no solving in sight.
Just my rambling thoughts on this acceptance thing
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I can't consider it a 'problem' because there is no solving in sight.
I'm working on attachment with my therapist. Some children, myself included, grow up in an environment where they are unable to form a secure attachment with an adult caretaker. There are several kinds of insecure attachments. The kind I believe that I developed is called disorganized attachment.
A child with a secure attachment turns to an adult caretaker for comforting and reassurance when they're upset, scared, or hurt. A child with a disorganized attachment has the same instinctual need to turn to an adult caretaker but the situation is complicated by the fact that the adult caretaker is the one who is upsetting, scaring, and/or hurting them. These children often freeze in stressful situations because the person they would normally turn to is often the source of their distress. This is referred to as the unsolvable problem.
My therapist told me I'm in a situation that should seem very familiar to me because the situation with my wife is the same one I grew up with, where the person I love is the person who is hurting me. This is the same situation all LBSes face. The unsolvable problem.
My primary stress response is not fight or flight, it's freeze. That's where I'm at now. Am I standing or am I freezing? Or am I standing because I'm freezing? Or am I freezing because I'm standing? It makes no difference. The end result is the same. I'm back to dealing with the unsolvable problem.
This brings up the question how did I solve the unsolvable problem from my childhood? The answer is that I grew up, met and married my wife, and formed a secure attachment with her, which is called an earned secure attachment. I finally found somebody who I could always count on to be there for me. My therapist thinks that is why I'm having such a hard time coping with my wife's MLC. Because it takes me all the way back to my dysfunctional childhood.
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OK. Step 2...now we describe the problem as factually as we can. How often does it happen? What are you doing or not doing when it is happening? What else happens? What else? Who notices?
Brain, you and me are playing - anyone else?
Right, my problem..... how to build a different life when I liked a lot of the old one.
How often does it happen? Every day but for shorter periods of time now.
What am I doing/not doing? Spending time dealing with the left-over rubble of my old life, paperwork and possessions. Spending time on this board. Reading things about MLC, depression, infidelity, trauma. Not spending time with old or new friends, so still hiding away a bit. Not focusing on my business. Not making concrete plans or commitments for more than about a month ahead. Still avoiding some things that need action or decisions.
What else happens? I still only sleep in short bursts and wake up very early. I don't eat much and never cook. I still have conversations in my head with my H sometimes. I talk about him/the D to mutual friends more than I talk about my own life. The house is a mess, and I no longer have a daily routine. I am struggling to stop smoking. I walk a lot. I run sometimes. I make plans but often cancel or change them. I still cry sometimes. I read a lot, but don't watch tv. I no longer try to influence my H. I don't snoop and I don't expect much of him and choose limited contact with him.
Who notices? My day-to-day life is pretty invisible to anyone else. My friends notice if I talk about my H. My friends notice if I stop returning their calls or go quiet for a few days. My friends who live near me notice if I am thinner or seem anxious or am smoking more. My L and estate agent notice when I am slow to respond. My work contacts notice that I seem to be unavailable and too busy to meet them. The lady in the local supermarket (who suffered from depression herself) notices if I seem cheerful or down when I go in most days to buy milk, cat food and cigarettes. Oh, and my cat notices that he is not getting as much attention as he used to.
Let's see if anyone else joins us on Step 2 in the next couple of days, Brain? Step 3 will be about picking some things to stop, start and continue, small actions that focus on the behaviours associated with the problem
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Some of these really interesting discussions, and the different perspectives (and entirely legitimate differences in POV), seem to be to sit at the nub of both Acceptance and Renewal.
Ignoring MLC for a moment (and how nice it is to do that ;D), put simply, life threw us a massive pie in the face. Because the pie happened to involve our spouse, that pie also shook the foundations of huge parts of our life - tangible things like money, other relationships like our children, our mental and physical health, our emotions, our beliefs about the past, our current priorities and our plans for the future. It is hard to pick a bit of my life which is untouched by this Huge Pie.
Acceptance is a series of personal steps in how we see the reality of the Pie, what we think it means and how we decide to scrape the mess off our faces. It is probably about our control, and putting a small gap between us as a person and the effects of the Huge Pie, between who we are and what has happened in to our life. So, things like 'letting go' will mean different things to different people and they might evolve over time too, either because our perspective on the Pie changes or because the impact of the Pie does.
Renewal is probably a post-Pie thing. We don't deny the Pie or the effects or how hard it was to scrape the bits off. Now, we're trying to decide what to try to clean, repair, throw away or create. And working out what we need internally and externally to do that.
I've found some of these 'life lessons' quite thought-provoking - what does Control, Detachment, Love, Forgiveness etc mean for me in a post-Pie life http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=6.0. And how can I use that to build my own bridge to Renewal, irregardless of what the Pie is doing or if there are more Pies coming my way...
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This is a slightly bigger post but a lot of what you guys were saying got my thoughts flowing so here they go.
I was re reading these posts when I had said I need to stop reaching out to him when I am sad.
I am feeling low today, and the urge is to reach out to him. If he was here I would want to walk over and just cuddle him. Not because he has been nice to me lately, or anything, that is just 14 years talking I guess.
For some reason when I am sad I don't know how to fix it without him. That is clearly a problem. I don't know what that problem is but it is horrible. I don't know how to self soothe myself. All I want is to sit on the couch and be held by him. The thought that may never happen again is absolutely terrifying to me.
I just want him to tell me he loves me and that may never happen again. I loved my family, I loved our marriage, and it is all just gone. But I also know I had a fantasy of him in my head. Our relationship was lop sided from the start. I was all the responsibility, the future thinker, the planner, the fixer, and pursuer. He was here for the fun, and the positive stuff, but he left the grown up stuff, decisions, and difficult emotional stuff to me. He would always try to please others first, even if that meant upsetting me. I was expendable because he knew I would love him anyway. And he was right. But at the same time...I know that isn't healthy. But my heart doesn't care, it just wants that back, because it is the only happiness I have known.
I just cry all the time, and then get random spurts of denial or something when I think ''It will be okay, we will make it'', and then I just get a horrible images of him with OW or something and I ended up angry or crying again. It never stops. I am so exhausted.
I then read into everything. If he doesn't answer the phone he must be out with OW, and I get upset, when reality is he could just be sitting in his room at his mums house. Most of the time I can control these impulses to get angry, or text, or call. But this weekend I couldn't. I was upset about something and over reacted and its pure panic.
I feel alone in the dark, trying to piece together my tear stained puzzle, before he breaks the pieces even further.
Nah your post was spot on. I don't know if I love him, or just how I feel around him. Like many people here I grew up without knowing true unconditional love. I do not feel anyone has truly loved me, and I was always chasing and trying to prove myself worthy of it. I don't understand why people just throw others away like they are nothing, just because it doesn't suit them. It is such a cruel thing to do, but I do the opposite.
I love people I KNOW are flawed, because I have only ever known flawed people. And I am not referring to the fact that everyone is a little flawed. I am talking I have a bi polar hypochondriac mother...who knows what I am going through, calls me up to tell me about her new bumper sticker on her car, and never even ask about how I am doing. My father was a womanising cheater, physically angry and abuse, no one could live up to his expectations, and vary likely had NPD. Me and my sister are not close, because after our upbringing we came out very very different. She is hostile, angry, cruel, and does not care for anyone unless she can get something from them. She is convinced everything bad about our life was my fault, even though I am only 1.5 years older than she is.
So you see I do not know what a 'normal' person is. I do not know how I could even handle or interact with one, I think maybe the people I find 'boring' are actual the normal ones? I have learned to adjust myself to interact with the person in front of me, I do not acknowledge myself or my needs. I am here for others, and that makes me happy. But I know that isn't how it should be.
I know in my core I value honesty, loyalty, bravery, truth, family, and unconditional love. I have an amazing sense of adventure, and I want to try new things or go new places, and see things in the world. Nothing of material value gives me pleasure, I enjoy the moments, the experiences. I am also very funny, and can make light of a situation that really isn't funny just to break the tension. I can feel when another person is in pain, and when they aren't being honest.
But I don't know how to cope with being alone. It is a loneliness that is terribly painful, a silence that can not be filled, an ache I don't know how to soothe. And when I don't feel this, when I am with him and this goes away, I think that is love.
But equally I look around me at other men, but they just aren’t right. They aren’t as handsome, or as funny, or grab my attention. It feels like they have no substance. I do not know every laugh they have, or joke, or what makes them smile. We could be in a crowded shopping centre and I would know when my husband was walking up behind me, from his pace or the way he breathes.. or something. I never had to turn around to know it was him, even if I was not expecting him. We have the same exact thought, and will turn to laugh at something we find funny, without having to say anything. So I know that what I feel isn't just about filling the void with anyone. I need to fill the void, but I only want him?! I don’t know if that is my deep loyalty streak, if that is from 'love', or if it is just unhealthy attachment.
Mybrainisbroken, what you said on attachment is very interesting. Given my dynamic and my wiring I too think I must have a disorganised attachment and I will be looking into that.
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Ok, Bride, so if you had to nail the biggest problem right now...is it how to self-soothe? Or something else?
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Yes I suppose that would be a good first step. How to soothe my emotions without someone else.
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Ok Bride, then break it down into what it looks like right now. No whys and what ifs, just what and how
Step 2...now we describe the problem as factually as we can. How often does it happen? What are you doing or not doing when it is happening? What else happens? What else? Who notices?
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Hi Treasur, Brain everyone.
I want to join this discussion but feel like I'm too new to this also but will give it a try. My views I guess are just from where I am at in the process.
OK. Step 2...now we describe the problem as factually as we can. How often does it happen? What are you doing or not doing when it is happening? What else happens? What else? Who notices?
For me I think of the end result. What am I going through all of this for? Where do I hope to be when this ends (if it ever does)? It changes everyday, sometimes many times a day...it just does.
Trying to work on myself while dealing with life and the complications my MLCer throws at it. The lack of having my W support and participation in our family, not just the As but her personality change. (That was noticeable months before BD.)
My lack of experience with a break up of any sort makes me a little retarded to the situation. My W was my first everything(relationship, lover, true best friend, etc).
Describe the problem as factually as we can. How often does it happen?
For me right now it is more then just she is having As being the problem. That part stings, causes me some pain fear paranoia etc... The other problems I see like the spew, the damage to her relationships with me and the girls, the irrational thought, the financial instability, the mind games with everyone, the indisiciveness etc. Is more of the problem for me then the As themselves. It all goes together and day by day or minute by minute she will switch it up like A kid at the controls that wants to pull every lever.
So trying to base where I'm at and maybe it is minute by minute, is sometimes a challenge. I think all of these things to me simplified is the lack of love. That is the problem for me everyday. All of what she is doing just tells me the love is gone. REJECTION!
I think I expect her to love me. Why wouldn't she? I didn't switch my personality up to cause this but I'm having to in reaction to this. She can't show it right now. Then the struggle with her behaviors and at some point I get to feeling like that is not a reasonable thought. You don't act this way when you love somebody or your family. It honestly is easier to feel like she hates me and its been brewing in her for some time. I think that is what I am doing when its happening. I still expect her love.
I think about that sometimes when none of this seems to bother her. The lack of empathy for me and the kids is a complete 180 from the person I know. She has the experience of heartbreak. I don't, at least not from a relationship. She's been in a controlling and abusive relationship. Its strange alot of who/what she is now reminds me of her past relationship with the oldest daughters bio dad.
Sorry half awake and rambling.
What else and who notices
I cycle these dang emotions over and over. Somethi g that bothered me this morning does not bother me the same now.
Who notices I guess would be the kids no matter which part of the cycle I'm in. I'm usually good about my mask in public but its also not much of a mask when I get away from her or the situation. I am genuinely a friendly person. Like you Treasur I've lost weight. I have to make myself eat. My kids see it. Heck the MLCer thinks I don't eat for days smh.... I didn't at first but I do need routine.
The more this goes on and what I read the more I look at my relationship with her as an addiction. She is what I think or feel like I want but is not healthy for me either. I have to work my steps to break the cycles and get back to being myself. It was not always unhealthy but I think that addiction to how she made me feel was always there...
Sorry this was long and I could be totally missing the question.
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How often does it happen?
Right now I am in the early stages after BD so it can happen hourly.
What am I doing when its happening?
Emotional cycling can be triggered by the smallest thought, image, song on the radio...
What else happens?
I feel myself trying to erect the barriers I had when I was younger. To sorta numb my feelings and disconnect.
Who notices?
I only talk to this forum, and my one friend. She has to hear a lot of my drama so I try to only go to her when I really need it, as not to bother her. But there is no one else.
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MB, I'm glad you have a friend who listens to you.
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Dearest Cold River - you weren't rambling, you're just reeling because you're in the early stages of the shock and 'how can this be' stage. I am so sorry. It is unbelievably painful and bewildering I know. We've been there and we know.
The stages are:
Denial - what will make this all go away?
Bargaining - what is this and how can I stop/fix my MLCer?
Anger - is it my fault, MLC vs are they just a horrible person?
Despair - how can I survive this?
Acceptance - how can I live with it?
Renewal - what should I do now?
Like Mortesbride above, your biggest challenge right now is likely to be about the emotional shock. This is happening. You can't control your spouse. Your brain and heart are in shock.
What do you think would help you manage the shock best right now? What are you doing already? Baby, tiny things, not big things - anything that is helping you put one foot in front of the other? Please don't worry about big stuff, this is like being in the ER - your priority is to keep yourself breathing and upright.
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Treasur, Renewal is not What Should I Do Now? In Renewal we know exactly what to do (or not to do).
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Treasur, Renewal is not What Should I Do Now? In Renewal we know exactly what to do (or not to do).
I meant it in the sense of 'do with my life next', but you may be right Anjae
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Right now I have written down a post it note of all the things I need to do.
Little things like making appointments, boiler check, buy halloween costumes for the kids...
Big things like finish learning to drive, get a job, find child care.
Just going to work on ticking them off, one at a time. Whatever I can do that day big or small.
I am requesting to postpone my study this year. I have worked hard over the last 4 years, and I want to get my first class honours degree. I am on track to do so, but I feel like I will not be able to devote the time and energy into it this year. My brain is all over the place, and I have to sort out a job, finances, and all the rest. I WILL NOT lose my degree because of what he has done.
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OK. Step 2...now we describe the problem as factually as we can. How often does it happen? What are you doing or not doing when it is happening? What else happens? What else? Who notices?
Brain, you and me are playing - anyone else?
Right, my problem..... how to build a different life when I liked a lot of the old one.
How often does it happen? Every day but for shorter periods of time now.
What am I doing/not doing? Spending time dealing with the left-over rubble of my old life, paperwork and possessions. Spending time on this board. Reading things about MLC, depression, infidelity, trauma. Not spending time with old or new friends, so still hiding away a bit. Not focusing on my business. Not making concrete plans or commitments for more than about a month ahead. Still avoiding some things that need action or decisions.
What else happens? I still only sleep in short bursts and wake up very early. I don't eat much and never cook. I still have conversations in my head with my H sometimes. I talk about him/the D to mutual friends more than I talk about my own life. The house is a mess, and I no longer have a daily routine. I am struggling to stop smoking. I walk a lot. I run sometimes. I make plans but often cancel or change them. I still cry sometimes. I read a lot, but don't watch tv. I no longer try to influence my H. I don't snoop and I don't expect much of him and choose limited contact with him.
Who notices? My day-to-day life is pretty invisible to anyone else. My friends notice if I talk about my H. My friends notice if I stop returning their calls or go quiet for a few days. My friends who live near me notice if I am thinner or seem anxious or am smoking more. My L and estate agent notice when I am slow to respond. My work contacts notice that I seem to be unavailable and too busy to meet them. The lady in the local supermarket (who suffered from depression herself) notices if I seem cheerful or down when I go in most days to buy milk, cat food and cigarettes. Oh, and my cat notices that he is not getting as much attention as he used to.
Let's see if anyone else joins us on Step 2 in the next couple of days, Brain? Step 3 will be about picking some things to stop, start and continue, small actions that focus on the behaviours associated with the problem
So, if you've identified the main problem?
Then looked at it in terms of behaviours and facts?
Now it's time to ask the magic question....If you went to bed tonight, and an invisible magic wand was waved so you woke up tomorrow morning and the problem had been resolved....how would you know? What would be the first small signs that the problem was no longer a problem?
Looking to my problem...how to build a different life when I liked a lot of the old one and some of my reflections on the facts about it....
I think I would wake up in a house that felt like a calm, ordered home and as I made my first cup of coffee (without a cigarette), my head would be busy thinking about a 'to do' list that was about new work, spending time with new people and on new activities that were nothing to do with the past 2 years.
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You know, it just rubs me the wrong way that we are being asked to describe our "problem." Call it a challenge, call it anything else, but this to me feels like an exercise in looking at the glass half empty and I don't find it helpful at all toward dealing with this MLC.
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Treasur, I imagine you are better than you were a month ago. And then you be bit better next month. You are doing a good job looking for a healing process that works for you!!!
We all learn coping skills from each other. That’s why we are here!!! Being open to new ideas will help you take the baby steps forward.
You have asked a bunch of questions I am better at answering one at a time. On how often it happens is daily. Truly hourly. My big question is why can’t I turn it off? Where is that magic switch???
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You know, it just rubs me the wrong way that we are being asked to describe our "problem." Call it a challenge, call it anything else, but this to me feels like an exercise in looking at the glass half empty and I don't find it helpful at all toward dealing with this MLC.
I get that, G. I think pick the word you want really. The idea is based on solution-focused therapy helping to get unstuck from why and move towards the hows and whats where we can make progress. Same sort of trial and error approach that folks talk about in responding to our MLCer really. I guess it isn't about dealing with MLC? It's about dealing with the effect on us of having to deal with MLC in our lives?
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Treasur, I imagine you are better than you were a month ago. And then you be bit better next month. You are doing a good job looking for a healing process that works for you!!!
We all learn coping skills from each other. That’s why we are here!!! Being open to new ideas will help you take the baby steps forward.
You have asked a bunch of questions I am better at answering one at a time. On how often it happens is daily. Truly hourly. My big question is why can’t I turn it off? Where is that magic switch???
If you had a magic switch, what would you be doing differently? What would that look like? Who else would notice?
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If I had a magic switch someone will jump out and tell me this has all been a sick prank. They were testing me...my loyalty, honesty, strength...whatever.
Reality is...I am pretty sure it isn't a prank. :'(
So I have just kept to focusing on my tasks. Keep myself busy. Remind myself my best friend isn't at home right now. And avoid things that trigger me for now, so I don't reach out to him. Because he is no longer able to help me.
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If my problem were resolved the emptiness, loneliness, sadness, and pain that I feel would be replaced by optimism and enthusiasm and I would be looking forward to another day instead of dreading it.
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If my problem were resolved the emptiness, loneliness, sadness, and pain that I feel would be replaced by optimism and enthusiasm and I would be looking forward to another day instead of dreading it.
Really? What problems Brain? Your wife being in MLC and had divorced you? I don't want to downplayed those things, they are huge and everyone here has a spouse in MLC and many have found themselves divorced or had to divorce.
But if you are wanting/expecting/desiring for external issues to solve the emptiness, loneliness, sadness, and pain that you feel, I think you are looking into the wrong direction.
I know you and other in a similar situation don't really like it when you are asked why do you feel so negative/sad, because, unlike several here, you have children (grandchildren), money, a job, a house, etc. How come some of who have nothing of it, or only a few of it, are loving life and those of you who have it all (minus the spouse, but that is the same for all of us) feel so miserable, sad or don't have much of a lust for life?
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Anjae, I don't think you've been reading my posts. I don't think I wrote that my wife having an MLC is my problem. I believe I wrote that the emotional pain, emptiness, and loneliness I've experienced since then is my problem. Thanks for telling me that I shouldn't feel the way that I do. That's very helpful. I'll put my mask back on and keep my thoughts to myself.
But if you are wanting/expecting/desiring for external issues to solve the emptiness, loneliness, sadness, and pain that you feel, I think you are looking into the wrong direction.
I've been seeing a therapist for my depression for 3 years now. What direction do you think I've been looking?
How come some of who have nothing of it, or only a few of it, are loving life and those of you who have it all (minus the spouse, but that is the same for all of us) feel so miserable, sad or don't have much of a lust for life?
If I'm reading this question correctly, it says that we who "have it all" shouldn't feel sad, but can't you see that those are external things? They don't solve the sadness, emptiness, and loneliness and they don't make the pain go away. MLCers don't seem to understand that but surely an LBS should.
At least now I know that I can still experience anger. :D
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If I had a magic switch someone will jump out and tell me this has all been a sick prank. They were testing me...my loyalty, honesty, strength...whatever.
Reality is...I am pretty sure it isn't a prank. :'(
So I have just kept to focusing on my tasks. Keep myself busy. Remind myself my best friend isn't at home right now. And avoid things that trigger me for now, so I don't reach out to him. Because he is no longer able to help me.
So it sounds as if you 'better' would be waking up to a busy day with no triggers? What does that look like? What can you do, or not do, to make days like that?
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If my problem were resolved the emptiness, loneliness, sadness, and pain that I feel would be replaced by optimism and enthusiasm and I would be looking forward to another day instead of dreading it.
Ok - everyone breathe and take a step back...
We are all entitled to feel what we feel. And pain and sorrow are not a competitive sport last time I looked!
Focusing on solutions is not about denying the pain or the challenge, it's about finding small ways to think and act differently in spite of the pain and the challenge. It's about 1% better is good enough sometimes.
Going back to what you said, Brain, you would feel optimistic and be enthusiastically looking forward to the day ahead right? So, again just focusing on facts, behaviours and you, what would that look like if I was a fly on your wall? What would you be doing or not doing? Who else would notice and what would they see?
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That is a tough question. It is pretty much impossible not to have some sort of trigger through the day.
Songs from our bands on the radio, looking at yahoo to see Walking dead has started...knowing we have watched every episode since it began together. Seeing his coffee cup still sitting on the little cup holder, going into my new wardrobe we built for two...that now serves one. Our big king size bed, that is now just mine. Triggers are impossible to avoid really.
I seem to have desensitised to the more routine ones (the bed, the closet, the cup). I still see them and get a bit sad and think about it, but it isn't as bad as it was a few weeks ago. But I still can't watch 'our' shows, or 'our' songs, or do things we did together.
The other day the song ''Killing strangers'' came on. It has a line something like ''Killing strangers so we dont kill the ones that we love'' and that triggered an imagine of him and OW, in a PA, because in my brain it associated that line with what he is doing as a MLC. That sent me into floods of tears for ages.
Wasn't really a song that was ours, it was random, just came on. But it was so apt to the situation.
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I don't know the song you are talking about but that line describes exactly what I KNOW my H is doing. He's taking out his issues that involve awful behavior on her so as to not take them out on me.
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That is a tough question. It is pretty much impossible not to have some sort of trigger through the day.
Songs from our bands on the radio, looking at yahoo to see Walking dead has started...knowing we have watched every episode since it began together. Seeing his coffee cup still sitting on the little cup holder, going into my new wardrobe we built for two...that now serves one. Our big king size bed, that is now just mine. Triggers are impossible to avoid really.
I seem to have desensitised to the more routine ones (the bed, the closet, the cup). I still see them and get a bit sad and think about it, but it isn't as bad as it was a few weeks ago. But I still can't watch 'our' shows, or 'our' songs, or do things we did together.
The other day the song ''Killing strangers'' came on. It has a line something like ''Killing strangers so we dont kill the ones that we love'' and that triggered an imagine of him and OW, in a PA, because in my brain it associated that line with what he is doing as a MLC. That sent me into floods of tears for ages.
Wasn't really a song that was ours, it was random, just came on. But it was so apt to the situation.
So what can you do to avoid or minimise the triggers?
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In a (completely) unscientific survey...and adjusted to fit the fact that Renewal was added after the survey started...rounded up....it seems that
2% are in denial/shock
2% in the bargaining stage
5% in anger/resentment
22% in depression/exhaustion
53% in acceptance
17% in renewal
Do you think that's an accurate flavour of the overall sense you get from LBS posters here?
How does it influence the support we can and do give each other?
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It seems to me like there's a lot more anger and resentment and a lot less acceptance than the survey indicates but that might be related to me being overly sensitive to anger. It may also be a reflection of the threads that I read since I don't read all of the threads.
Going back to what you said, Brain, you would feel optimistic and be enthusiastically looking forward to the day ahead right? So, again just focusing on facts, behaviours and you, what would that look like if I was a fly on your wall? What would you be doing or not doing? Who else would notice and what would they see?
The only thing that I can say in response to this is that there would be somebody in my life who would notice. Right now nobody notices anything I do. I'm pretty much invisible.
I realized last night while I was writing a PM to another LBS that I haven't ever cared about a career, money, or owning a big house or other material things. All that I wanted from life was to spend time with my wife. I loved being around her and doing things with her. Does that mean that I was dependent upon her for my happiness? I have no idea. All that I know is that I always felt better when I was with her than I did when I wasn't. I suppose there was something wrong with that.
BTW, they say that depression and irritability go hand-in-hand in men. I don't know if that's true for men in general but as my depression deepens I have found that relationship seems to apply to me.
I have also realized now that my wife has been with the om for almost 3.5 years and our divorce is now completed that my belief that there is a chance of us being a couple again is fading which is probably the reason for my worsening depression. The light at the end of the tunnel is looking pretty dim. That makes it more difficult for me to feel optimistic and enthusiastic.
Thanks for the thread Treasur.
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MB,
I felt the same way. I didn't care about all those things either. I just wanted to be with my H every day. We did everything together, and I assume he felt the same way. We were inseparapable. It was like since we met we didn't need anyone else.
I wouldn't say my H is the only thing that makes me happy, but I am the happiest when I'm with him.
So there ya go. You are not alone.
I don't think I would be with anyone if I wasn't with him. I really have no interest in other men or a new relationship.
Treasur, remember there was no Renewal when this poll started, so some of the Acceptance should be renewal. I believe you said about 10 or more, is that right? Or am I way off? ;D
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It seems to me like there's a lot more anger and resentment and a lot less acceptance than the survey indicates but that might be related to me being overly sensitive to anger. It may also be a reflection of the threads that I read since I don't read all of the threads.
I agree. The same for denial/shock and bargaining and even for depression/exhaustion.
In the total of HS members, that may not be true -many no longer post - but I think it is acurate if we go with those who post regularly.
All that I wanted from life was to spend time with my wife. I loved being around her and doing things with her.
This is understandable. I think we all wanted to spend our live with our MLCer and loved being aroun them and doing things with them.
Does that mean that I was dependent upon her for my happiness?
Not really. Missing our spouse is normal. At a point, I think we are able to become happy again even if we may still miss the MLCers.
BTW, they say that depression and irritability go hand-in-hand in men. I don't know if that's true for men in general but as my depression deepens I have found that relationship seems to apply to me.
Is it just the depression that has been deepening or also the exhaustion? Mr J two depressions previous to MLC did not have anger - aside from the when, the first time, he was given Prozac. The Prozac drove him insane, angry and made him agressive. He detested the Prozac and what it did to him.
His MLC depression has always been agry and agressive.
Maybe you are right, the more depressed a man his, the angrier he is. Or it may have to do with a cumulative effect of exhaustion or something else. Hard to tell.
But if you are finding yourself more depressed and more angry, maybe you need to try to think what may be of help to you.
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Is it just the depression that has been deepening or also the exhaustion?
Both
Maybe you are right, the more depressed a man his, the angrier he is. Or it may have to do with a cumulative effect of exhaustion or something else. Hard to tell.
I wouldn't say I'm angry. I feel that anger has a recognizable and reasonable focal point, e.g. I'm angry because somebody scratched the paint on my new car or I'm angry because my boss didn't give me a raise after having promised earlier that he would. I'm not angry. I'm irritable. Little things set me off that really shouldn't. You should be thankful you're not riding with me when I'm driving my car. ;D
But if you are finding yourself more depressed and more angry, maybe you need to try to think what may be of help to you.
My therapist wants me to start having therapy weekly instead of biweekly. I'm not sure what else might help that would be appropriate. I'm willing to entertain suggestions. I know that ice cream helps but I want to hold off on treating it with ice cream until after I run the NYC Marathon next weekend. It looks like having an affair is a very effective short term solution but I'm not sure whether it has the same effect once you're divorced. Running helps but it's too tiring and hard on the body to do for more than 2 or 3 hours at a time or 7 to 10 hours per week.
Irritability can be a sign of depression but it can also be a sign of anxiety/PTSD. The mirror work I've been doing where I've been digging into childhood FOO issues could be causing increased levels of anxiety, depression, and irritability as issues from my childhood resurface.
https://www.militarytimes.com/pay-benefits/military-benefits/health-care/2015/03/30/depression-or-ptsd-can-cause-irritability/ (https://www.militarytimes.com/pay-benefits/military-benefits/health-care/2015/03/30/depression-or-ptsd-can-cause-irritability/)
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My mistake Brain, I should have written Irritable/Irritability. It is different from angry.
Glad I am not riding with you when you are driving your car. I truly dislike irritable drivers.
In Mr J's MLC depression/MLC, angry is accurate. Nasty and agressive also. Irritable, of course.
I have found myself irratable, angry even, of late on some days. But I am not feeling depressed. In my case, it seems to be connected to hormonal changes - the now two or three times a months "monthly" cycles seem to be doing a number on me.
I never had mood swings nor felt irritable or angry with monthly cycles before. Looks like a new things to add to the list. The vitamins and minerals help a lot, but depite them something is changing in a way I do not like.
I know you love your runs, but I think you have been running too much. Too much running, or any other kind of exercise, is detrimental. Let alone when one is already depressed. Excessive exercise will eat away precious nutrients, including minerals and vitamins.
It is also, like you said, tiring and hard on the body. It also ends up leading to a rise in cortisol and adrenaline. Two things that are necessary in an emergency, but not on a daily basis.
You know I think you should slow down on a few levels. And I know you don't want to think about it because it you stop running and the emergency work there will be an even bigger hole.
Irritability can be a sign of depression but it can also be a sign of anxiety/PTSD. The mirror work I've been doing where I've been digging into childhood FOO issues could be causing increased levels of anxiety, depression, and irritability as issues from my childhood resurface.
It could. Is the type of mirror work you are doing really necessary? Is there a point when therapy becomes detrimental?
P.S. changing your name back to Ray may also help. Ray is more positive.
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I have found myself irratable, angry even, of late on some days. But I am not feeling depressed. In my case, it seems to be connected to hormonal changes - the now two or three times a months "monthly" cycles seem to be doing a number on me.
My wife was going through this prior to BD. It was so bad her doctor was talking about giving her blood transfusions. Another reason besides her depression why I found it so hard to believe that she would have an affair and another reason why I believe the om must have pursued her pretty hard. It seems to me that a woman wouldn't be very interested in beginning an affair while she was depressed and going through what you described. Push her husband away, maybe, but start an affair? Hard to imagine.
Like most things, running is best done in moderation, but moderation and running a fast marathon don't really work together. Also like most things, to excel at running you need to be consumed by it, and I have been, but I'll be cutting back after the marathon. I'm thinking about going into semi-retirement. You're also correct about the vitamins, minerals, and other nutrients but I believe one of the reasons why I'm a successful runner is because I work just as hard to maintain a healthy diet as I do training to run fast. When I started training for the NYC Marathon I quit starving myself and started eating properly, except maybe for the ice cream. In fact, I even forgot to add starving myself to the list of things I can do to make myself feel better.
It could. Is the type of mirror work you are doing really necessary? Is there a point when therapy becomes detrimental?
P.S. changing your name back to Ray may also help. Ray is more positive.
I had this conversation with my therapist last week. I told her Pandora's Box has been opened, the contents have been leaking out, and I don't think it will be possible to put the cover back on the box now. Nor do I think it would be a good idea. Maybe on my thread I'll post the conversation Little MBIB had with my therapist. He has a say in this too.
Last time I saw my therapist I showed her a photo of me prior to BD. I told her I'm not sure who that guy was or if I can ever be him again. That guy was Ray or Ray was my attempt to be that guy but I'm not there. Maybe someday.
Sorry about filling up your stages thread with all of this stuff Treasur.
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Thunder - adjusted the numbers to fit
Brain - no apology needed, the thread is for all of us. I think I see more anger or resentment at feeling powerless too. Maybe not as an LBS stage as such, but as a thread through the process. For some it's a reaction to things their MLC spouse is doing/not as part of a D process or with the kids. There it reads more like anger at the spouse.
But I think there is also a sort-of undirected anger at the situation/universe which is more difficult maybe. Anger with nowhere to go. Everything I've read about male depression does suggest that anger is quite commonly a part of it and it ties in with stuff about control or feeling like a victim, I guess. Maybe there is some (understandable) anger in your Pandora's Box? And you are lonely, I think, and feel unseen...I feel that too. Some of it is about my spouse because it's a very visceral rejection isn't it? But most of it is just that I think I've curled up small to survive this and disconnected from life a bit. Inner child stuff maybe - I still have moments where it just all feels so unfair.
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Treasur I thin k you hit in a point that I haven’t heard discussed before. The lbs being unseen. One of the last comments my vanisher said to on the night of my daughter’s wedding, a night I looked at my best, he said”I guess maybe I should have paid more attention to you’”. My BD had been 8 months earlier. He had left at that time. Those following weeks I started to find out about all his crazy MLC behaviors. I have not seen him since about a week after that wedding 14 months ago. My point is they truly are so self absorbed they don’t see us anymore. Forgetting us is one way they can act so crazy they don’t want to a partner just are the center of the world. That’s were the op comes in. A new source of hero worship.
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I've certainly been very conscious of this as part of my own pain because I lost my parents and best friend too, as well as my H. These four people all saw me as important to them - and then pfft. I felt completely abandoned and alone. I think also dealing with a stonewalling vanisher for months at a time easily leads you to feel that you are invisible and that you don't matter. It's an extraordinarily cruel thing to do to any human being and I still find it shocking that my H of 18 years has acted as he has. But it is much more about his fear than my worth, of course!
It was a real fight for me mentally to accept that I may have been erased my by H (who knows what he actually feels) but the choice to believe I mattered was in my hands.
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I don't think we have been erased in their minds, not at all.
It is more we have been suppressed. Their memories of us have been locked away, along with a LOT of memories.
They've brought another person into their life and they are suffering from cognitive dissonance. If they had erased us they wouldn't be suffering all this turmoil, all this guilt boiling up. The stuff they say makes no sense. They don't think logically. What they say sometimes can't possibly be true. They are doing something they themselves find so horrible that they tell themselves anything to justify it. They are of two minds.
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Treasur,
You are ready to start a new thread.
Thank you. :)