Midlife Crisis: Support for Left Behind Spouses
Archives => Archived Topics => Topic started by: BrenM on March 15, 2017, 10:25:28 PM
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Mid life crisis. That's not a real thing is it?
Well, it depends who you ask.
Over the last few days I have been finding myself quote on several posts for LBS's to not mention to people in the REAL world about standing for our partners during their Mid Life Crisis....in fear that firstly that they would think that you are absolutely CRAZY and secondly they have no idea what you are on about....isn't MLC about buying a sports car?
Over the last 2 years I have read thousands of articles about MLC. Ironically, I have found out that I am not alone in my train wreck life, but there are thousands of people, from all parts of the world, that have/are experiencing similar or identical issues with their long term partners. There are forums everywhere, other people telling MY story, yet I do not know them.
I have spoken to my Doctor about my husbands MLC, and he shot me down and bluntly said that MLC does not exist and is a falicy. 'People use it as an excuse to justify bad behaviour". Hmmmmm.....this could possibility be true.
One thing I know is that we are not crazy. All of our spouses are playing out their scripts so well, academy award nominees!
It has got me confused as to why MLC is not recognised? Surely some very well educated medical guru would have done a thesis on MLC? There are far too many occurrences for it not to be recognised. MLC has been going on for years. If not centuries?
Does anyone have any thoughts/theories?
Ps - I know we should be focusing on ourselves. But sometimes in life you need to ask why?
Take care fellow LBS's, sending you all lots of long hard hugs (that only a LBS would understand the importance of) 😘😘😘
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I dont understand the "people use it as an excuse for bad behaviour" comment that I hear so often.
People who are having a MLC dont say "I'm having a MLC so I'm going to fire truck up my life and the lives of those around me but not accepting any responsibility for it".
LBS's dont use it as an "excuse", it would be so much easier for us to not have to deal with the confusion and believe that our spouses were unhappy with us.
And like you say, how can everybody have the same/very similar experience if it doesn't exist?
I think it might take a LBS to do the research and get it recognised. Changes do happen at that stage on life and if its recognised, more can be done to get families through it. It can also help prevent the stigma attached to standing.
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Hi Rossbren,
I really feel MLC should be. Yet have heard things like not all MLCs are alike. Everyone has different past issues why they are brought here in the first place. There is no specific age that it hits and a few more reasons it's not recognized by the medical community.
Plus I feel it's embarrassing in society why people don't mention it when they should.
MLC only happens to a very small population of people. It's not a huge amount of people that have it happen to them. I mean how do you explain to others about it who care about you? They would never get it.
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I have thought about this a lot and I believe it is because of the affair.
I think the affair is unfortunately a symptom that masks the condition. For this reason -- and to "raise awareness" -- I think it is important for LBS to describe the situation to others in a way that fully reflects the scope of the situation, including physical, personality, and spending changes.
I actually feel people on this forum should not describe this to others as a "midlife crisis." I have talked to several doctors, neurologist, former psychiatric nurse, drug rehab specialist, chiropractor and was told by each one that this is biophysical illness or drug reaction.
Another major hurdle is that therapists are not medical professionals. This means that oftentimes the first expert we turn to after bomb drop is unlikely to suggest this is a medical problem. Moreover, it is difficult to get help (or even a consultation) from a neurologist or psychiatrist when you are not the person who requires a consultation.
Anyhow, great topic to discuss!
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Every illness is characterized by a set of symptoms. But not every sufferer necessarily has every symptom. This would explain the variations that exist.
I'd like to know how we can start a poll as a separate thread because I'd really like to know how many of the MLCers have a history of childhood abuse. There is research that shows childhood abuse has a lasting impact on the way the brain processes stimuli. Why doesn't it hit until mid-life? Well perhaps because with aging other changes in hormones or brain chemistry occur and combined this leads to MLC.
One could say it is an excuse for acting badly but there are certain symptoms that clearly are more neutral, like memory loss and even false memories, and an inability to estimate time periods, an inability to feel emotions.
I agree with Velika about the OP being a symptom. I know in my H's case he had certain fears as part of this whole MLC and the only way to solve that was through an OW. The OW was not an end in herself. She came AFTER BD, and BD was NOT ILYBINILY, it was "I'm afraid of my (even OUR) future and here's what I need to do to solve that." He has referred to her as a "tool." She's a means to an end. If she doesn't produce that end, he will dump her. I actually didn't produce the same end but he has absolutely desire to dump me for it. So she really is a tool. Maybe in another culture/situation it is couched in different terms but my husband sort of a stripped down and raw version without any illusions. He had some excuses on top of that but most of them are already fallen by the wayside and he would not be able to justify them anymore. Even his main reason in fits of anger he apparently has told OW he doesn't care about it anymore. I don't really know what is going on in his mind right now but if this really was something he wanted for sure, he wouldn't be like this right now.
Another thing that is striking to me is the stages. Think about a common cold. It starts with a scratchy throat, then progresses to congestion and achiness, then perhaps to sneezing and coughing, and finally you heal. Most illnesses have stages. As does MLC. I really was having a hard time trusting the process because while I have been able to see my husband go through the first 3 stages according to script, culturally there were reasons I had doubts about the rest of the process. Now that H has had his first awakening and is showing signs of depression and withdrawal, I am starting to see this as a process that has its own internal inevitability and no matter what the external differences, it's going to happen according to script. And that to me is further evidence of an illness.
There was some discussion on another thread where we agreed that it's hard to get something recognized as an illness when the sufferer feels what they are doing is what they want and need. I think that is a big part of it.
And I agree about therapists. What benefit would there be to therapists to recognize this as a medical condition, one that in theory maybe in the long run could be treated by medication? A therapist needs people to be in a state of constant trouble to make a living. And without it being recognized as a condition in the DSM and a condition without a known treatment, there's not much a psychiatrist or neurologist could do at this point.
Another issue is the way in which it is described. HB has done some amazing work describing MLC, but she doesn't use the same terms the medical community does to describe known psychiatric manifestations. Nor does her, "God told me this" really help further the cause, no matter how good her descriptions are, because any scientist reading the descriptions might say she is a raving lunatic. Even to a lesser extent RCR's descriptions fall short of the sort of detached and descriptive angle that is necessary. She's admittedly a creative writer. I think the work they both have done is great but not what is needed to push this forward in the medical community. Then you have sites like the PersonalTao site that sort of make it out to be a good thing that people can harness if they spin it right that don't help either.
How could all this be changed? I see two possible avenues. I think first would be to set up a web site devoted to MLC as a potential medical condition, not as a support site like this one. To raise awareness and attract like minded people who are interested in this. The second would be to lobby for research to be done. I think there would need to be longitudinal studies done but there may be existing long term study groups in some countries where they have collected data about people in childhood and then followed them throughout their lives and in midlife they could look at certain things that are possibly related to MLC. I don't think this is something you can easily study in the middle of it happening because most sufferers would refuse to recognize it. You need to look at the before and after in a large group of people, some of who are behaving this way and some of who aren't.
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Changing4eva - some awesome points in your posts. I too would love to see a poll from existing MLCer's to see who has been subjected to childhood abuse? My poor husband was haunted by his cold hearted father for many, many years. Unfortunately I see my FIL in my husband today, the man who he did not want to become. Ironic hey?
I am unsure why society has no awareness of MLC prior to bomb drop or before an individual's life is exposed to such behaviour. I can assure you that since my induction into this crazy world of MLC I can spot a potential MLCer a mile away. DOES ANYONE ELSE HAVE THIS GIFT NOW? Medically MLC does not exist? That is the crazy thing! What do doctors put the medical symptoms down to? Depression yes, they hand over medication. Sometimes testosterone issues are identified, resulting in medication. Do doctors link the combined symptoms to diagnose? Surely there is growing evidence due to the number of occurrences.
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My W had childhood issues. DB was 6 weeks after her mother passed(17m ago) On her recent touch and go (31days) I saw just how alike she had become like her mother. Biggest example is treating her 2 Sons as not being important to her just like her mother did to her. Also in her 2nd councilling session during the touch and go. The councillor suggested she see a specialist for childhood truama. Withing 2 hours of the session she had run back to OM and not been seen since which was 3 weeks ago.
DW
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I have found that many doctors (at least the ones I have) treat the symptoms and do nothing to figure out the main cause.
My h doesn't feel like anything is wrong. In fact, he says this is who he needs to be that he has been lazy for several years. Hard to diagnose something when the person thinks the are fine.
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I noticed similarities with Manic Depression or Bi-Polar. Perhaps don't call it mlc but MD or Bi-Polar.
Use a recognized condition that is closely related to mlc so they will look for those symptoms.
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Medically MLC does not exist? That is the crazy thing! What do doctors put the medical symptoms down to? Depression yes, they hand over medication. Sometimes testosterone issues are identified, resulting in medication. Do doctors link the combined symptoms to diagnose? Surely there is growing evidence due to the number of occurrences.
My doctor knew it was mlc, my counselor said it was definitely a crisis [not necessarily mlc].
We've discussed the causes of mlc at length on HS--there's a thread somewhere [I can't find it tho :P ]. The conclusion is usually that mlc is a 'perfect storm'. Maybe physical changes, maybe psychological or both. There's a good lecture by Robert Sapolsky--google 'apes midlife crisis'.
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My thoughts are, the medical community doesn't recognize it because they can't cure it with medication or therapy.
With a mental illness there is certain medications that can help them. If it's a psychological problem there is therapy.
What can you give a person who is going through an identity crisis?
They don't feel there is anything wrong with themselves so they won't seek any help. They just have to go through it. Sort themselves out and that just takes a lot of time.
Most of them do come out of it. With no medical help at all.
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As a medical professional, in mental health no less, I get really frustrated about the lack of recognition that midlife crisis gets. Throughout school, I learned ZERO about midlife crisis. I have educated myself as extensively as I can over the past 3 years.
Personality disorders are a medical diagnosis, and there are no cures for them, and the person experiencing the personality disorder has no clue they have it (and are often in denial that they have it). Yet it's still a diagnosis!!
Midlife crisis needs more recognition and it should be a diagnosis in the DSM manual. Professionals who go to school to work in psychiatry and mental health need to learn about MLC. Because we all know that the MLCer isn't going to come for help, but their spouse ikely will!! And they need tools to navigate this horrible rollercoaster. And when the MLCer comes through the tunnel, therapy is beneficial when they are willing to do it, and the person counseling them needs to know the tools to proceed with helping them heal!! The lack of education, formal diagnosis, and lack of training is just appalling to me.
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Just a thought. Could it be that it's both physical and mental the doctors could never decide how to categorize it so they left it alone?
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Now this scares me somewhat......
Frontotemporal Degeneration: The Dementia Doctors Mistake For A Midlife Crisis
Date: April 24, 2014 Publication: Daily Health News Source: Bradford C. d!ckerson Print:
A loved one turns 50 (or so), impulsively buys a flashy sports car that he can’t afford, aggressively propositions women in restaurants, swears at his boss, then lobs insults at you when you suggest that he settle down. You might think that he’s having a somewhat tardy midlife crisis…but he’s not.
The real problem may be a type of dementia called frontotemporal degeneration (FTD) that leaves memory intact while causing disturbing changes in behavior, personality and/or language. FTD occurs equally in men and women. People with this progressive brain disorder often alienate friends and family, jeopardize their jobs, maybe even get into legal trouble—yet often they’re completely unable to recognize that they have a problem. And even if they do see their doctors, they’re likely to be misdiagnosed with depression or some other psychiatric problem, at least in the early stages.
That’s why they need all of us to be aware of the warning signs…so patients can get the help they need and appropriate plans can be made for their future. Here’s what you should know about FTD…
RECOGNIZING AN UNRECOGNIZED DISORDER
One reason why FTD often goes undiagnosed is that it tends to strike earlier than other forms of dementia, typically developing in a person’s 50s or 60s—which people may think of as “too young” for dementia. Alzheimer’s disease, in comparison, appears 10 to 13 years later, on average. Another source of confusion is the fact that FTD patients usually ace memory tests used to detect Alzheimer’s—for instance, they often have no trouble keeping track of day-to-day events and staying oriented to space and time. Also, many people have never heard of FTD (also called frontotemporal dementia or Pick’s disease) even though it accounts for up to 20% of all dementia cases.
The term FTD actually encompasses several related disorders, all of which are characterized by progressive damage to the frontal lobe, a brain area associated with decision-making and behavior control…and/or the temporal lobe, which is associated with emotion and language.
Though genetics plays a role in about 15% to 20% of FTD cases, the majority of cases do not appear to be inherited. Doctors aren’t sure what triggers FTD, though they do know that in some cases the disorder occurs when a protein called tau degenerates and is no longer able to perform its main function, which is to stabilize the structure of brain cells, said Bradford C. d!ckerson, MD, an associate professor of neurology at Harvard Medical School and director of the Frontotemporal Disorders Unit at Massachusetts General Hospital. Other cases result from changes in other proteins, he added. As a result, neurons die or become shrunken and misshapen…scar tissue forms…and there is an accumulation of abnormal protein within brain cells.
As a consequence of the brain degeneration, patients experience progressive changes in behavior, language and/or motor skills. Symptoms may include any or all of the following…
Personality changes—including loss of empathy…heightened aggression…and increasingly inappropriate social behavior (hypersexuality, excessive swearing, laughing at others’ misfortunes, etc.).
Impulsivity, distractibility, poor judgment and impaired decision-making skills. Examples: Impulsive spending or financial risk-taking…inability to plan and prepare a meal…inattention to personal hygiene…driving like a reckless teenager.
Compulsive behaviors, such as repetitive hand clapping, incessant humming or shoplifting…and intense cravings for sweets or other carbohydrates.
Apathy, lack of motivation, listlessness, irritability—symptoms easily mistaken for depression.
Increasing problems with language, such as difficulty naming familiar objects, expressing thoughts and comprehending words. Ultimately, some patients are rendered incapable of speaking…and some lose the ability to comprehend the speech of others.
Muscle rigidity, weakness and tremors, which can lead to trouble balancing and walking. Early on, such symptoms often are misconstrued as signs of Parkinson’s disease. Eventually patients become unable to perform daily activities.
Sadly, FTD is ultimately fatal, with the duration of the disease ranging from two years to more than 10 years.
It’s tragic to think that, during the early stages, an undiagnosed patient might so alienate his/her family and friends—who are understandably bewildered and upset by the person’s disturbing behavior—that he winds up alone during the later stages, with no loved ones to help him. That’s one reason why a diagnosis is so crucial.
GETTING HELP
“In many people with FTD, the changes in the brain reduce insight and self-awareness to a degree that the patient is not able to recognize his impairments,” Dr. d!ckerson said. So if you suspect that a loved one has FTD, insist on accompanying him to see his doctor and request a referral to a neurologist with expertise in the disorder. No single diagnostic test exists to confirm or rule out FTD. Diagnosis is based on a detailed cognitive and neurological exam…a neuropsychological exam to assess behavior, language and decision-making functions…and neuroimaging tests such as MRI or PET scans to check for atrophy in various areas of the brain.
There is no known way to cure FTD or stop the progression of the disease, but there are treatments that can help ease some of the symptoms. For instance…
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Antidepressant selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors may be able to help control aggressive behaviors, impulsivity and carbohydrate cravings.
Antipsychotic or mood-stabilizing medications may be able to help manage irrational or compulsive behaviors and ease agitation. However, these drugs can have serious side effects, including accelerating heart disease, so the benefits need to be carefully weighed against the risks, Dr. d!ckerson said.
Speech and language therapy can help a patient learn alternative ways to communicate (such as with gestures or by pointing to pictures), reducing frustration and improving quality of life.
Occupational therapy makes it easier for a patient to perform basic activities of daily living and to avoid falls.
Counseling or psychotherapy rarely helps FTD patients, Dr. d!ckerson noted—but it almost always helps their families.
FTD eventually progresses to the point that patients need 24-hour care. The sooner a patient is properly diagnosed, the sooner plans can be put in place to make his life as secure and comfortable as possible.
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Rossbren, I believe that MLC affects the same region of the brain (frontotemporal lobe) and this is why we see the same behavior.
This disease is progressive and fatal. I believe that MLC is to a certain extent progressive (as people not they get "worse" as they get "deep in the tunnel"), but some people do recover.
Because MLC represents many other illness, I think that all LBS should inform their MLC spouse behavior and personality change to his or her doctor. This will not stop the MLCer but is a record something is wrong in case new symptoms appear.
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Another reason it's not recognized is because MLC is temporary. A long temporary yet temporary.
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Another reason it's not recognized is because MLC is temporary. A long temporary yet temporary.
Is it temporary? Can we say this with authority?
This has happened so many times in my MLC-H's family. No one ever seems to have really recovered.
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Another reason it's not recognized is because MLC is temporary. A long temporary yet temporary.
Is it temporary? Can we say this with authority?
This has happened so many times in my MLC-H's family. No one ever seems to have really recovered.
Could it be they did recover and some of the new personality changes are what stayed instead of bouncing back to the old persona?
That is normal. Just as in puberty a child grows and is no longer 5 years old since they are now 13.
Our MLCers are growing. MLC a fascinating maturation process. MLC is like puberty for middle aged adults.
There are no guarantees in MLC.
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I tried to post this on it's own thread yet it got cut so I'll post it here:
THE GOAL OF A MLC IS FULL EMOTIONAL MATURATION
https://thestagesandlessonsofmidlife.org/the-goal-of-the-mid-life-crisis-full-emotional-maturation/
While the MLCer is on their Emotional Maturation journey, us as the LBS have our own journey to embark on which is why I'm so thankful for RCR and HB who started sites like this one. I'm able to breathe and know that this terrible period in our lives, won't last forever willfully.
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Rossbren,
They say to "insist" on accompanying him to see his doctor and request a referral to a neurologist with expertise in the disorder.
They obviously don't understand MLCer's. ::)
There is no way in the world my H would have let me " insist" on anything especially not go to any kind of doctor for testing. As far as he was concerned there was nothing wrong with him.
I did however talk to our doctor about my H. He was concerned he may have a brain tumor from the symptoms. But of course a few years later the symptoms were gone. Just a crisis.
I suppose if a person actually had that they would eventual have to admit something is wrong when it started effecting their motor skills. But before that I highly doubt they would go to a doctor. Would your MLCer?
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I feel differently. I feel saying it's 'just a crisis' is insulting. My H went to a few doctors and therapists to find out what was wrong with him and got a diagnosis somewhere.
My H was the one that told me a few years ago, what was going on with him.
That was then. Now when he really needs medical help, he refuses to go back probably because of how he was treated and because MLC is not recognized by the medical community.
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I would like to submit that male menopause is a serious contender. Consider that some women go through menopause without too much trouble, others not so good. Men the same. Testosterone drops as men age just as estrogen drops for women. Of course men would never talk about the fact that they have male menopause or andropause. Heaven forbid.
Look at what they will do to keep the magic boner alive even in their 70's - Viagra even it it kills them with a heart attack! -and we are talking about men MLCers in their late 40's to early 50's who suddenly find that the machine doesn't work quite the way it used to. For men that is a biggie. Couple that with all of a sudden realizing they are getting older. Serious ego issues arise. The quest for eternal youth is on! Diet, exercise, clothes that might look a bit too young and of course the much younger woman.
I heard it myself. "I'm getting old" Well sorry but it happens to us all. Accept it and move on. But it's not so easy for some people - including women. I've read about women reaching menopause years and going off the rails - having sex with much younger men, dressing inappropriately etc. etc.
There is no question that hormones are powerful. And, when you look at how weirdly similar the MLCers talk and behave as if there was some script, I can't help but consider the effect that the changing hormones have on the brain and they are exactly the same hormones. So if the brain chemistry gets rocked by certain hormones and it affects certain parts of the brain - well why not andropause. That, at least, can be addressed medically.
Sally
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I feel differently. I feel saying it's 'just a crisis' is insulting. My H went to a few doctors and therapists to find out what was wrong with him and got a diagnosis somewhere.
My H was the one that told me a few years ago, what was going on with him.
That was then. Now when he really needs medical help, he refuses to go back probably because of how he was treated and because MLC is not recognized by the medical community.
This is not an uncommon story. I think many realize that something is wrong but are either able to hide it or don't get answers from medical professionals.
I was very frustrated last year after going to three therapists with my MLC-H. To each one, I said: something has happened, he is a different person, this isn't who he used to be. Not one suggested seeing a doctor, and yet radical personality, behavior, and spending change are all widely accepted reasons to see a doctor.
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Sally,
I couldn't agree more.
I believe my H's crisis was mostly hormonal. Hot flashes and all.
Velika,
That doesn't surprise me about the therapists. They just don't want to believe in this crisis.
Like I said, my doctor was concerned and thought it could be a brain tumor. But I never mentioned MLC to him because I learned not to call it that.
No one takes you serious.
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I have read up on male menopause and i believe it plays a huge role in this too. I wonder what a doctor would say about it?
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I was noticing a very common thread in all of our stories is how suddenly and dramatically the spouse appears to change.
I know that there is more going on under the surface leading up to bomb drop, but there is also a point -- especially for those with extreme MLCers -- where they seem to "snap" and lose their empathy and even core personality. It seems like once this happens there is no turning back.
It seems unlikely that all of these spouses have had strokes or aneurysms, but it does seem like there is some sort of tipping point that isn't just psychological.
I was trying to think of other parallels and one was parents of children with autism. Many have noted that something happens, maybe virus or fever, digestion symptoms, and the child after that is totally disconnected, flat, aggressive.
Is it possible that what we are witnessing is related in some way? Are there parallels? Can you think of any other medical condition that could lead to this sudden "snap"?
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My MIL lives with us and she has been starting to have memory issues and acts very aggressive sometimes and she wasn't like that before. Something related to aging I am sure. I raised this with several family members because I was getting nowhere getting my husband to realize it. When I would tell him about her being aggressive toward me just so he knew what was going on and ask him not to say anything to her he would still go after her and tell her to knock it off.
The thing is he is acting the same, has memory problems and of course monster is aggressive. He also worries he will wind up like his mother someday and so I think he has been in denial about her state.
However, last week there was a breakthrough in his noticing the changes in his mother. We don't have natural gas piped in here and have to use gas bottles with the stove. The bottle had run out and my husband and I changed it together. The previous time he and I changed it together. He came to me after and said, "My mother is insisting she is the one who changed the gas bottle last time." He knew this was not the case. I said to him, "Did you notice at lunch time when she asked what a certain dish was and we told her it was made from eggplant and then two minutes later she asked again what it was?" He just said, "God help her."
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I know that there is more going on under the surface leading up to bomb drop, but there is also a point -- especially for those with extreme MLCers -- where they seem to "snap" and lose their empathy and even core personality. It seems like once this happens there is no turning back.
Has anyone noticed a stage between anger and replay where they actually draw close and become quite lucid with you? My husband's BD preceded replay but there was a period after BD and before replay where we drew closer than we ever had before and understood eachother better than we had before and then as soon as OW was in the picture that's when things really snapped and he lost his empathy and core personality. I noticed someone else, I forget who, described something similar here the other day.
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I know that there is more going on under the surface leading up to bomb drop, but there is also a point -- especially for those with extreme MLCers -- where they seem to "snap" and lose their empathy and even core personality. It seems like once this happens there is no turning back
Definitely a huge SNAP (along with a crackle and POP)! In all the years I have known my husband, I have never witnessed him being so aggressive and abusive towards anyone! To see him screaming obscenities in his sons face at very close range, to see him push his kids and me in violent ways, to witness him verbally abuse his "princess" daughter....the ANGER is just poisonous for us all....it just doesn't make sense at all!
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My theory is that extreme CB`s have the strong need to spew out venom to their LBSers and in a lot of cases their children, whom they had always idolised pre to their MLC. IMHO they do it in order to "feel alive" rather than a "deep emptiness".
From all the information I`ve read and looked at in the past few years (thousands of articles, threads, various MLC Forums, YouTube, etc., etc.) and my own experiences with P, it appears as though they spew the most venom at times when things haven`t been going so well in their new lives.
So to say, the NOVELTY has worn off in regards to OW/OM and/or anything else for that matter, whether it be the NEW sports car, motorcycle, hobbys, partying, friends, etc., etc., that enabled the MLCer to "feel something" and unfortunately the ones closest to the MLCer, which happen to be the LBSers and the children are those who are on the receiving side.
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Look at what they will do to keep the magic boner alive even in their 70's - Viagra even it it kills them with a heart attack! -and we are talking about men MLCers in their late 40's to early 50's who suddenly find that the machine doesn't work quite the way it used to. For men that is a biggie. Couple that with all of a sudden realizing they are getting older. Serious ego issues arise. The quest for eternal youth is on! Diet, exercise, clothes that might look a bit too young and of course the much younger woman.
I love this. I think part of the reason MLC doesn't get formally addressed is a combination of the male ego and also a bit of the double standard. An older guy messing with younger women makes him look better, at least to himself and maybe some other men. If he messes with younger women, then he still "has it". He can blame his weenie issues on the wife because it couldn't possibly be his fault, could it?
I also think that there isn't money to be made on this issue which is why it fails to be addressed at the medical and professional levels. We can address some of the symptoms (depression and anxiety) but not the MLC as a whole. And who admits they're in MLC? Seems like a pride issue. I think some other things that make it hard to be addressed are also that when you mention MLC, people think of an old, fat bald guy driving a brand new corvette and that's not what it is about.
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My theory is that extreme CB`s have the strong need to spew out venom to their LBSers and in a lot of cases their children, whom they had always idolised pre to their MLC. IMHO they do it in order to "feel alive" rather than a "deep emptiness".
From all the information I`ve read and looked at in the past few years (thousands of articles, threads, various MLC Forums, YouTube, etc., etc.) and my own experiences with P, it appears as though they spew the most venom at times when things haven`t been going so well in their new lives.
So to say, the NOVELTY has worn off in regards to OW/OM and/or anything else for that matter, whether it be the NEW sports car, motorcycle, hobbys, partying, friends, etc., etc., that enabled the MLCer to "feel something" and unfortunately the ones closest to the MLCer, which happen to be the LBSers and the children are those who are on the receiving side.
I have read similar posts as well. I just pray that it is correct.
I often wonder how he will ever repair the emotional damage caused by his venom spewing outbursts.
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Look at what they will do to keep the magic boner alive even in their 70's - Viagra even it it kills them with a heart attack! -and we are talking about men MLCers in their late 40's to early 50's who suddenly find that the machine doesn't work quite the way it used to. For men that is a biggie. Couple that with all of a sudden realizing they are getting older. Serious ego issues arise. The quest for eternal youth is on! Diet, exercise, clothes that might look a bit too young and of course the much younger woman.
I love this. I think part of the reason MLC doesn't get formally addressed is a combination of the male ego and also a bit of the double standard. An older guy messing with younger women makes him look better, at least to himself and maybe some other men. If he messes with younger women, then he still "has it". He can blame his weenie issues on the wife because it couldn't possibly be his fault, could it?
I also think that there isn't money to be made on this issue which is why it fails to be addressed at the medical and professional levels. We can address some of the symptoms (depression and anxiety) but not the MLC as a whole. And who admits they're in MLC? Seems like a pride issue. I think some other things that make it hard to be addressed are also that when you mention MLC, people think of an old, fat bald guy driving a brand new corvette and that's not what it is about.
You've hit the nail right on the head!!!
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Medically is a different issue but I'm surprised to see not recognized in society on this thread.
Is this just my experience?
When I told my mother that husband had left she didn't hesitate. "Oh yes, men, when they get a certain age something happens to their brains, don't worry, it will take time but he'll be back". She didn't even seemed too surprised, like it was normal.
Just the other day I ran into a "hockey mom" that I haven't seen in a few years. After chatting for a while, I said, well I'm sure you heard Mr Nah left. She said, "yes, I heard he's having a MLC". This is common when I run into people.
Old friends, co-workers, his friends and co-workers, most of them say the term "MLC" before I do.
Yes, some will say something along the lines that "MLC" is just an excuse for bad behavior. Funny thing though, my experience is that the MLCers don't use "MLC" as an excuse as much as we do. It seems to me that everybody around the Leaver uses the term MLC except him.
In the early days when I made the typical mistake of using the term to him, he rolled his eyes and snickered, like I was being ridiculous. He was also convinced that I was talking to his friends and telling them to make fun of him for having a MLC. This was "locker room talk" with his hockey friends. I never talked to them, I don't even know most of them. THEY on their own, were "busting his balls" and using the term "MLC". He was angry with me b/c in his words, "everyone says I'm stupid, I'm not stupid you know". He kept repeating this same phrase again and again to me at one of our divorce hearings. He calmed down when I finally said that I had no idea who called him stupid and I never said anything to anybody about him being stupid.
Maybe it's because the Leaver is so very stereotypical?
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I am finding the poll results very interesting. If you haven't cast your poll can you please do so. Unsure if others agree?
I strongly believe my husband growing up with an abusive, cold hearted, critising, loveless father has somehow caused his MLC. My husband is becoming the man (especially to his children) that he has had no respect for years. The man who he hated to be around, so distanced himself in his adult years. The man and person who he swore he would never become
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He was angry with me b/c in his words, "everyone says I'm stupid, I'm not stupid you know". He kept repeating this same phrase again and again to me at one of our divorce hearings. He calmed down when I finally said that I had no idea who called him stupid and I never said anything to anybody about him being stupid.
Nah, for some unknown reason my husband has made reference to me during contact (which is almost non existent) that he is not stupid. He has repeated this several times. I always reply to him that I have never called him stupid and would never say that because he is not.......unsure if this is something that his father constantly said to him when he was growing up and in his confused state blames me? Everything seems to be my fault in his eyes ATM 😢
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I also think that there isn't money to be made on this issue which is why it fails to be addressed at the medical and professional levels.
What do you mean there isn't any money to be made on this? Do you know how much money I've paid to divorce lawyers? That's why nothing is done about it.
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I strongly believe my husband growing up with an abusive, cold hearted, critising, loveless father has somehow caused his MLC. My husband is becoming the man (especially to his children) that he has had no respect for years. The man who he hated to be around, so distanced himself in his adult years. The man and person who he swore he would never become
I agree!
I disagree about finances being a reason it isn't recognized. My feeling is that a lot of it has to do with how therapy is practiced. If someone comes to a therapist and says, "I am not happy in my marriage and I haven't been for a long time," therapists are largely encouraged to support them in making changes to be more fulfilled and live a more authentic life. This can even include supporting them as their children make this change.
Unless you knew a MLCer prior to bomb drop, it would take a long time, I believe, for this story to begin to unravel. And this is to assume a MLCer would even be in therapy in the first place — or report events accurately. If the MLCer attends therapy with the LBS, at least in the beginning, the LBS is often so traumatized and also does not realize what is truly going on — meaning a therapist is less likely to see the LBS as rational, and may assume this (arguing/miscommunication/alternate view of events) is a longstanding dynamic.
I have noticed that any doctor I tell the story to automatically sees something is medically wrong. A therapist, however, is the first person most LBS would turn to in this situation, and I feel would very rarely refer either LBS or MLCer to a medical professional unless he/she had special knowledge of/belief in/first-hand experience with MLC.
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About the poll results, I wonder how many of those who answered "No" actually don't really know. Could it be that some MLCers have hidden the abuse from their spouses? I mean it would be harder to hide abuse by parents, but say the abuse was by a family friend or clergy, would the LBS actually know for sure?
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I believe my W MLC is to do with her child hood and how her mother neigleted
Her from the age of 4 when she remarried. Her sister went to live with the father and W would spend her time at school
Or in her bedroom. W has become just like her mother with how she treats our sons with lies and no interest in them unless OM is not around. Her 2 MC session suggested she see someone to discuss her child hood issues resulted in her running back to OM and back into reply.
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About the poll results, I wonder how many of those who answered "No" actually don't really know. Could it be that some MLCers have hidden the abuse from their spouses? I mean it would be harder to hide abuse by parents, but say the abuse was by a family friend or clergy, would the LBS actually know for sure?
Great point! The poll results have got me seriously thinking. I pray that my kids don't suffer a similiar MLC episode when they are older. Surely it won't be a domino affect?
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He was angry with me b/c in his words, "everyone says I'm stupid, I'm not stupid you know". He kept repeating this same phrase again and again to me at one of our divorce hearings. He calmed down when I finally said that I had no idea who called him stupid and I never said anything to anybody about him being stupid.
Nah, for some unknown reason my husband has made reference to me during contact (which is almost non existent) that he is not stupid. He has repeated this several times. I always reply to him that I have never called him stupid and would never say that because he is not.......unsure if this is something that his father constantly said to him when he was growing up and in his confused state blames me? Everything seems to be my fault in his eyes ATM 😢
I am one of the lucky few who had the opportunity to get a glimpse into what was really happening in MLC land after the fact. More details are in some of my old threads but after about two years of me breaking HS rules and stalking my husbands band page with a broken heart as my former friends welcomed the girl and husband with open arms I was told the truth.
In pictures everything looked like they were having the times of their lives but I was told after husband was kicked out of the band that ALL the wives either turned their backs or right out ripped them apart to their faces. Most normal people aren't happy when a long term marriage gets broken apart by an obvious home wrecker.
Also, his former coworkers (he has been fired) and former hockey friends (she won't let him play) all friends for over 20 years have confirmed that yes they were calling him stupid for leaving me. I didn't know this at the time. Of course, in true MLC fashion they can't look at themselves and their actions so they blame the LBS for manipulating these people. I wouldn't be surprised if there were others that gave him/them a hard time that I don't even know about.
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I also think that there isn't money to be made on this issue which is why it fails to be addressed at the medical and professional levels.
What do you mean there isn't any money to be made on this? Do you know how much money I've paid to divorce lawyers? That's why nothing is done about it.
Yes, and as we all know.... most marriage counselors are really divorce counselors.
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In pictures everything looked like they were having the times of their lives but I was told after husband was kicked out of the band that ALL the wives either turned their backs or right out ripped them apart to their faces. Most normal people aren't happy when a long term marriage gets broken apart by an obvious home wrecker.
This part gets me so confused.....why do they paint a story to everyone that they are happy? More lies? I was told that my ex-h spent 4 hours in the gym on Christmas Day, who in a new HAPPY relationship does that? How can the OW think that this is normal? I would be offended personally if i was her. Our Christmas's have always been spent with lots of Family, enjoying time together. When I was told this it confirmed my faith in the whole MLC process.
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I also think that there isn't money to be made on this issue which is why it fails to be addressed at the medical and professional levels.
What do you mean there isn't any money to be made on this? Do you know how much money I've paid to divorce lawyers? That's why nothing is done about it.
I am sorry, MyBrainIsBroken. I didn't think of lawyers when I posted that. Yes, they make money off MLCs for sure.
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There's no need to apologize Belle. I knew what you meant. I also know the divorce industry makes a lot of money from MLC divorces. I don't believe the divorce industry is discouraging MLC research but I don't think the divorce lawyers are standing up and saying something isn't right here. They just continue dismantling marriages and raking in their fees.
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I voted yes. While he never said anything to indicate any form of abuse in his childhood, I have been around his F enough to suspect emotional abuse. I see it with the way that FIL talks to his wife sometimes as well. Both FIL and MLC'er are very "authoritarian" and often broke myself and the children's spirits.
I pray that my own kids can break the cycle. I have prayed against generational curses.
I think it is recognized in society, but with an absolutely skewed version/vision of what it really is. I only wish that it was recognized medically.
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I'm late yet wanted to add there are other factors in MLC other then abuse. There is abandonment, neglect and other things. Sometimes it's as small as the child didn't feel loved.
So while I agree with C4E and Rossbren, people really have got to realize that a MLC is healing childhood issues and has nothing to do with the MLCers present state in the least.
Sometimes it's just so private, whatever it was in the MLCers childhood, the LBS just may have no clue.
It really is a shame the MLCer went their entire life avoiding the issues or they were dug so deep in their subconscious the MLCer just was never able to talk about it years ago yet unresolved childhood issues exactly what MLC/MLT are from.
It's also a real shame for the innocent LBS that had no idea where this came from at all.
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Mid life crisis. That's not a real thing is it?
Well, it depends who you ask.
Over the last few days I have been finding myself quote on several posts for LBS's to not mention to people in the REAL world about standing for our partners during their Mid Life Crisis....in fear that firstly that they would think that you are absolutely CRAZY and secondly they have no idea what you are on about....isn't MLC about buying a sports car?
Over the last 2 years I have read thousands of articles about MLC. Ironically, I have found out that I am not alone in my train wreck life, but there are thousands of people, from all parts of the world, that have/are experiencing similar or identical issues with their long term partners. There are forums everywhere, other people telling MY story, yet I do not know them.
I have spoken to my Doctor about my husbands MLC, and he shot me down and bluntly said that MLC does not exist and is a falicy. 'People use it as an excuse to justify bad behaviour". Hmmmmm.....this could possibility be true.
One thing I know is that we are not crazy. All of our spouses are playing out their scripts so well, academy award nominees!
It has got me confused as to why MLC is not recognised? Surely some very well educated medical guru would have done a thesis on MLC? There are far too many occurrences for it not to be recognised. MLC has been going on for years. If not centuries?
Does anyone have any thoughts/theories?
Ps - I know we should be focusing on ourselves. But sometimes in life you need to ask why?
Take care fellow LBS's, sending you all lots of long hard hugs (that only a LBS would understand the importance of) 😘😘😘
Hi Rossbren, try reading the Midus survey by Brim et al. (2004) it is the only empirical evidence for midlife crisi I know of, 26% of those who participated said they had a midlife crisis.
Kind regards
Jackolar12
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Jackolar12 thankyou for your reply. You have me entrigued..... I have tried googling Midus survey by Brim et al. (2004) to no avail. I can see an abstract on the research but nothing else. Can you please suggest where I can get access to this?
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My Ws mother is German, father Sicilian. W is the eldest of 4 children. All one year apart.
FIL also had another son from OW who unfortunately died a few years back. He was born within the 4 years where the others were born.
When the kids were young they moved to Sicili. FIL was mostly away driving a truck around europe. MIL had several afairs in Italy. After 4-5 years back to Germany. Never had much money. W being the eldest had to basically do the housework and play "mother" for her brothers and sisters.
MIL has left FIL 3 times but always came back. They are now happily married.
W has often said that she wont end up like her Mother! Need I say anymore :-\
I guess im pretty much firetrucked :'(
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Oh bugger....another case of genetic repetitive MLC......😧
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About the poll results, I wonder how many of those who answered "No" actually don't really know. Could it be that some MLCers have hidden the abuse from their spouses? I mean it would be harder to hide abuse by parents, but say the abuse was by a family friend or clergy, would the LBS actually know for sure?
I agree. That is why I modified the Poll (Sorry Rossbren) to add the option of "Don't Know"
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About the poll results, I wonder how many of those who answered "No" actually don't really know. Could it be that some MLCers have hidden the abuse from their spouses? I mean it would be harder to hide abuse by parents, but say the abuse was by a family friend or clergy, would the LBS actually know for sure?
I agree. That is why I modified the Poll (Sorry Rossbren) to add the option of "Don't Know"
Don't be sorry UM at all - I think many would like to see the final results. Surprisingly I don't think many of us will be surprised as we all ready know. Thanks for your input UM - feel free to amend it accordingly 🤙. It would be great to get as many replies as possible from all HS members 😁
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Hi Rossbren,
In answer to the original question in the subject line - I personally think that it is because MLC is still viewed in society at large as the fat old bald guy with gold necklaces and an open shirt driving the red sports car convertible with the 20-something blond with big ... uhhhmmmm... shall we just say "overendowed" and long legs... It has been stigmatized like that for SO long that this is what the immediate mental picture is when someone says "Mid-Life Crisis." No one takes it seriously....
Any OTHER set of symptoms (like the ones that we all witness) are attributed to other things - Bipolar, Narcissistic Personality Disorder, Manic-Depression, Borderline, Co-dependence, whatever...
I believe my W MLC is to do with her child hood and how her mother neigleted
Her from the age of 4 when she remarried. Her sister went to live with the father and W would spend her time at school
Or in her bedroom. W has become just like her mother with how she treats our sons with lies and no interest in them unless OM is not around. Her 2 MC session suggested she see someone to discuss her child hood issues resulted in her running back to OM and back into reply.
Same here... My Mid-Lifer is trying to reenact her parents D where FIL(RIP) went off into MLC-Land.... W was left to fend for herself and care for her siblings for a while. BIL went after a time to live with FIL (RIP) because MIL could not deal with him (much like S is being pushed in my direction) while MIL glommed on to SIL (much as my Mid-Lifer is glomming onto our D6..... the pattern repeats itself with a few "minor" exceptions... I'm not moving a continent away like FIL did (a bit odd since HE was the MLC one and my W is following in HIS footsteps). I refuse to let my mid-ifer have 100% of D6 and, since I live 8 km away, she can not demand that.... I'm not the one stirring up unneeded court proceedings (like FIL(RIP) did).... Basically, I am probably prolonging the whole situation because I am NOT behaving like I am supposed to - like her parents...
FWIW - FIL was a Refugee baby in WWII - His mom took him and fled the backlash persecution of the Displaced Germans in Poland immediately after the war and he must have seen some pretty evil stuff =- stuff that he was simply never able to process... His brother was too small to travel and stayed with FIL's father (who was a serial flianderer with multiple affairs) until after the war when he was released from captivity and they returned to the area around Cologne.
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Your story about your FIL is so sad Um. No one would ever get over that. It would definitely mess up your head irrespective how you try to cope. I just find it very intriguing that MLC seems to repeat itself to the children of the MLCer...a domino effect.__. I have told my kids that I will be watching them closely and that under no circumstances will they be allowed to do what their dad has done lol
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Your story about your FIL is so sad Um. No one would ever get over that. It would definitely mess up your head irrespective how you try to cope. I just find it very intriguing that MLC seems to repeat itself to the children of the MLCer...a domino effect.__. I have told my kids that I will be watching them closely and that under no circumstances will they be allowed to do what their dad has done lol
Yep, agreed... What I find interesting is that 1) our MC (later my IC) told me that she was sorry that this happened but that she was not surprised as W had "built a wall around her that was nearly impossible to crack." 2) FIL(RIP) was a high-energy type of the nth degree with a monster streak a mile wide whereas my Mid-Lifer (his D) is a low-energy type (after the initial outburst/outbreak) with very little (read subtle & covert) monster ... Where he woudl drag people into court for frivolous stuff, my W confines herself thus far to the occasional snarky comment... More of a provocation than a real monster attempt...
If either of my kids pull this kind of nonsense, we are both going to have to go to the hospital... Me to get me foot out of my shoe and the offender to get my shoe out of their a$$!...
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I think the reason that it's not recognized is because there's not one set cause nor manifestation of symptoms; like how recently they've declassified a bunch of personality disorders into spectrums or clusters, since no one falls firmly into one thing and there's a variety of causes, even though a large majority of them are rooted in insufficient or abusive upbringings.
To me, it's one of two things.. either this person is a jerk, isn't in love with you, just put up with you or whatever and wants out. Or, this person is genuinely having a break down, an identity crisis, or some other form of lapse that most likely stems from them having serious issues they put off dealing with, typically by over focusing on a spouse, career family or some combination of.
If the case is the latter and the person is seeking help and wants to fix things, why shouldn't we let them try? I think in society we're too easy to dismiss those that have stumbled. Too quick to shun those who have cracked under some pressure and make them outcasts and blow them off because that person has "problems". We have a mental health crisis in the US, without a doubt, because we walk past people in need and say "it's none of my business" or "they have issues". Yeah, they do. Don't they deserve understanding, help, patience and kindness as human beings who are suffering?
Off my soap box and I'm not saying it's ok to be a doormat either.. but we do have serious, serious issues with being aware of and discussing mental health issues as s society.
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I have thought about this a lot and I believe it is because of the affair.
I think the affair is unfortunately a symptom that masks the condition. For this reason -- and to "raise awareness" -- I think it is important for LBS to describe the situation to others in a way that fully reflects the scope of the situation, including physical, personality, and spending changes.
I actually feel people on this forum should not describe this to others as a "midlife crisis." I have talked to several doctors, neurologist, former psychiatric nurse, drug rehab specialist, chiropractor and was told by each one that this is biophysical illness or drug reaction.
Another major hurdle is that therapists are not medical professionals. This means that oftentimes the first expert we turn to after bomb drop is unlikely to suggest this is a medical problem. Moreover, it is difficult to get help (or even a consultation) from a neurologist or psychiatrist when you are not the person who requires a consultation.
Anyhow, great topic to discuss!
Drug reaction really hit home for me about a month ago. W is a doctor and has access to free samples. I found injection pain medication sample containers in her car and she said that they fell out of her lab coat. I later found the same medication in her work bag but thought perhaps it was because she was working off site. Finally I found a vanilla envelope hidden under towels under her sink cabinet in the bathroom. This made me realize that there was a problem. My first thought was she was injecting her mom who is a listed med seeker. Later I realized it was probably for her. I also found some hidden in our closet. The secretive nature and frequency of my findings opened my eyes. I also found out her male doctor friend was a big advocate of this type of pain medication.
The kicker is that one of the rare side effects is
Personality change. W has weird intolerance to medication and seems to always get the rare side effect. She got narapothy and bad IBS which were both rare side effects of different drugs. I will be honest, I am skeptical about over medicating mostly based on experiences and stories my W shared. I'm not saying this was the reason for mlc, but I find it interesting.
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I agree with gman.
I also don't think it's the lawyers, I think it's more the big pharmaceutical companies. They would make no money because there is no drug to help MLCer's. So no interest there. ::)
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Not unless they develop one. But the problem is who will recognize they have a problem and take it?
I think that is the hardest part about all this. It is so obviously an illness, so obvious they are just going through the script and checking all the boxes, and they are suffering so much, and they have NO CLUE. If my husband had any physical illness and I went online and researched it for him and got him info, he would appreciate it. If I told him he has MLC illness, he would get angry. I can really understand what it must be like to have a relative with Alzheimer's. It's just so horrible and you cannot do a thing! Any other illness if you feel compassion for their suffering, they can feel it, but this, they can't. They don't know what we are bearing for them, just waiting for them to get better. They probably wonder why do we put up with their horrible behavior? They just have no clue why!
I think all of you who have children who might be at risk repeating this in the next generation, as soon as they are old enough, you should sit them down in front of this site and HB's site and make them read read read. Just so they know if and when it hits them, what it is.
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Exactly, Changing. Who is going to admit it and take a drug, even if there was one??
Besides how do you make a drug that can cure your childhood issues?
There is just no such thing.
What they need is a GOOD trauma therapist, but there again...would any of them would really go?
We just need to accept that there is no cure...only time. :-\
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The kicker is that one of the rare side effects is
Personality change. W has weird intolerance to medication and seems to always get the rare side effect. She got narapothy and bad IBS which were both rare side effects of different drugs. I will be honest, I am skeptical about over medicating mostly based on experiences and stories my W shared. I'm not saying this was the reason for mlc, but I find it interesting.
I don't know if I have posted this to the gut health discussion board, but I read that IBS can cause brain lesions. (My husband also had IBS.) I was told by a neurologist that brain lesions can cause this this if behavior. (If you read the lesions to the ventromedial prefeontal cortex you essentially have a description of the MLC I am witnessing.)
C4E, wow what you wrote is so true! Where have I read that MLC is a disease where everyone suffers except the afflicted. I can see now that this isn't true (MLCer also suffers) but it takes a long time to see this.
I don't know if this is something that wouldn't be of interest to drug companies. I just think most people who haven't witnessed it thinks it is a real disease. I was actually considering the other day how this is an example of a condition that really can become better understood due to the internet and discussions like these. We live all over the world, how would we find each other and discuss for weeks/months/years this condition if not for the Internet?
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You're so right, Velinka.
When I first found out about MLC on the Internet I was flying blind. I had zilch understanding of any of it. I just thought either my H was having a breakdown of some sort or he really fell out of love with me. I was thoroughly confused.
But by reading and chatting with others I started to understand MLC much better.
It wasn't me and he didn't just fall out of love he was in a crisis.
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You wouldn't cure the childhood issues. You would cure the damage they do to the brain.
I keep having visions over and over of a kid who was in my class in junior high and high school who had a brain tumor removed when he was younger and it affected his sense of right and wrong. I remember one day standing in line waiting to buy my lunchtime nachos and he cut right in line with the biggest smile on his face. He truly believed what he was doing was totally OK. They can't even imagine they are hurting us.
Edit: I just googled him and found out he died last June. A four sentence obituary, about when he was born, where he graduated from, where he lived and where his memorial service would be held. That tells you how his life turned out. Sad.
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How very sad. I went to school with a frail, sick girl who had a heart condition but her father didn't want to risk a heart surgery. Many years later, as an adult, she had her surgery and is doing great. Hit 70 years old this year. Sorry, just reminded me of a happy ending.
As far as brain damage, I don't believe MLCer's have brain damage.
Maybe some other disease, drugs or injury may cause that.
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Googled some more and actually found a longer obituary. Seems he lived a very colorful life as a cowboy. He was married once and then divorced and was in a relationship when he died. The interesting thing was the brain tumor was mentioned up front in the first paragraph of the obituary and its effect on him was pretty clearly implied. So clearly it was known to be part of his personality to all around him until his death. I'm just happy to know he didn't wind up in prison because that is what I always feared would happen due to his lack of sense of right and wrong.
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Oh wow, maybe he got some kind of help years later.
Could the brain tumor maybe have been operable to some degree?
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It was actually cancer, due to a previous accident, so they had to remove part of the brain to cure it. That's why he lost his ability to tell right from wrong. But the thing was we all knew about it and so we just tolerated his behavior. One of my classmates who knew him before the surgery told me he had a completely different personality then. Strange thing was he died of a brain aneurysm.
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Wow on the results of the Child Abuse question above.
In reference to some people not knowing how to answer Yes, No, or I don't know to the child abuse question:
It took me several minutes to decide how to answer because I believe that the emotional abuse that my H suffered during childhood was actually a result of the actions of H's older brother, who had serious anger issues as a teenager. Although H's father has always been a bit of a cold fish, and left his family for an OW with children the same age as H and his brother. (no one has ever referred to FIL as having had an MLC....but sure sounds like it was one to me).
To clarify for others, I assume childhood abuse does not necessarily have to be from a parent or guardian only?
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Wow on the results of the Child Abuse question above.
In reference to some people not knowing how to answer Yes, No, or I don't know to the child abuse question:
It took me several minutes to decide how to answer because I believe that the emotional abuse that my H suffered during childhood was actually a result of the actions of H's older brother, who had serious anger issues as a teenager. Although H's father has always been a bit of a cold fish, and left his family for an OW with children the same age as H and his brother. (no one has ever referred to FIL as having had an MLC....but sure sounds like it was one to me).
To clarify for others, I assume childhood abuse does not necessarily have to be from a parent or guardian only?
I answered "No", but I should have put don't know as my FIL was fired from his teaching job due to inappropriate contact with a middle school girl. I also found out that there was sexual abuse in FIL family. W aunt was abused sexually. W said she had childhood issues to deal with but never discussed what they were. W councilor said she needs advanced treatment and out MC asked if she was sexually abused. I think IDK would have been a better answer.
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I posted yes because I didn't think that Rossbren knew yet that there were many other possible factors w/ MLC. Is there a way to change my answer?
Thanks UM for the adjustment to the poll.
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I'd say having your father arrested for abusing a teenage girl would probably be as psychologically damaging as having it happen to yourself. The death of a parent could also probably have the same effect as abuse.
I once had a colleague who told me about the hell of her teenage years that she went through because her father was falsely accused of some sort of corruption. He was raked over the coals on the front page of the New York Post every day. All of NYC thought he was guilty. That's how bad it was. She had to go to school with everyone thinking her father was a crook. And it affected her father as well. When he was finally exonerated, he changed careers and went to law school to become a lawyer, to defend the falsely accused.
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I posted yes because I didn't think that Rossbren knew yet that there were many other possible factors w/ MLC. Is there a way to change my answer?
Thanks UM for the adjustment to the poll.
Thanks Elegance, you are definitely correct. There are so many factors to consider. This was just a simple poll to get a rough indication from the members of this forum who read my posting. It would be great if the moderators of this site could somehow do another poll from all members on this forum as they log in - not just the people visiting my posting etc.
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I posted yes because I didn't think that Rossbren knew yet that there were many other possible factors w/ MLC. Is there a way to change my answer?
Thanks UM for the adjustment to the poll.
Elegance -I am unsure if I can do this...maybe a moderator could assist?
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I'd say having your father arrested for abusing a teenage girl would probably be as psychologically damaging as having it happen to yourself. The death of a parent could also probably have the same effect as abuse.
I once had a colleague who told me about the hell of her teenage years that she went through because her father was falsely accused of some sort of corruption. He was raked over the coals on the front page of the New York Post every day. All of NYC thought he was guilty. That's how bad it was. She had to go to school with everyone thinking her father was a crook. And it affected her father as well. When he was finally exonerated, he changed careers and went to law school to become a lawyer, to defend the falsely accused.
It seems her father was dismissed but charges were never brought against him. I heard that the girls family didn't want her to go through the process. This was in the mid 80's. I did confirm the story, but IDK if my W even knows as she never discussed it with me. I just wonder if based on his dismissal for inappropriate behavior, the history of sexual abuse in FIL family, and W not having childhood memories, if abuse wasn't a possibility. The connection to her mom's behavior is more obvious though, and W started using medication in April of last year.
The crazy thing is I can see medication, abuse, situational stress/anxiety, family history, spiritual/supernatural, and depression all as being potential factors. All that means is she has been through enough to have a good reason for going crazy.
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Jackolar12 thankyou for your reply. You have me entrigued..... I have tried googling Midus survey by Brim et al. (2004) to no avail. I can see an abstract on the research but nothing else. Can you please suggest where I can get access to this?
hi Rossbren it is an American national survey from 2004, try a google scholar search. If you can't find it I will try to locate it for you and email it to you. Try looking at the dark triad of character traits of machiavellianism, narcissism and psychopathy as well and see if any of them apply to your Mlcer. I have an online survey monkey study on the dark triad and links to low empathy and cheating running at the moment for my dissertation and I believe that people in MLC show these traits. I was going to do one on MLC but there was not enough empiricle evidence other than brim et al and Jim Conway to make it worth doing.
Kind regards
Jackolar 12
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I have thought about this a lot and I believe it is because of the affair.
I think the affair is unfortunately a symptom that masks the condition. For this reason -- and to "raise awareness" -- I think it is important for LBS to describe the situation to others in a way that fully reflects the scope of the situation, including physical, personality, and spending changes.
I actually feel people on this forum should not describe this to others as a "midlife crisis." I have talked to several doctors, neurologist, former psychiatric nurse, drug rehab specialist, chiropractor and was told by each one that this is biophysical illness or drug reaction.
Another major hurdle is that therapists are not medical professionals. This means that oftentimes the first expert we turn to after bomb drop is unlikely to suggest this is a medical problem. Moreover, it is difficult to get help (or even a consultation) from a neurologist or psychiatrist when you are not the person who requires a consultation.
Anyhow, great topic to discuss!
I find this a very interesting thread. I just wanted to share my understanding and experience of my H's situation. H's MLC is very complex, a mixture of nature and nurture, physical and mental changes over the years that ended up in the perfect storm. The affair is definitely the most visible and painful symptom which overshadows the depth of the issues and makes getting support for LBSer's standing difficult.
I saw my doctor first, who recognized the possibility of his depression and/or ADD. He surprisingly got treatment, but I think the psychiatrist overmedicated him as he became more manic after he began taking the meds. That is a danger of antidepressants, according to my therapist. That was when his MLC really was exacerbated.
In the beginning, I read authors who seemed to have an in depth understanding of MLC. It helped me a great deal. Therapists do not believe it is a real thing because it's not in the DSM. But the behaviors are so much alike why isn't it? Maybe because it is so complex and can be labeled as depression or anxiety or as a personality disorder or even sadly, as a bad marriage?
The last time he moved out, I described his situation differently and got a different response from loved ones, more support and less judgment. Before, everyone just accepted it as the status quo, "people change, welcome to the divorce club," they'd say, "it happens, move on, you deserve better, etc." But this time, I said he was suffering from depression and what a terrible disease it is. "He is getting treatment," I'd say. "Please pray for him," I would ask.
Anyway, I think he was abused as a child. Father probably cheated on mother in his 40's. Lot's of anger in that family. Huge family history of depression. He learned poor coping skills and chose one of the most stressful jobs in the world with the absolute worst commute, began drinking heavily and partying, and just lost his mind. I also believe the concussions he suffered as a teenager playing football likely did some damage which showed up in the latent personality changes such lack of empathy and impulsiveness. He was always a bit impulsive, but pretty steady in most ways for daily living.
Anyway, as I said it's complex. It was the perfect storm. I also believe there is a spiritual component at play, a spiritual void. Throw in some evil temptations with this vulnerable soul, and what have you got? MLC!
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Lots of good stuff here. I think the fact that so many of the prognosis have similar symptoms is the most difficult part about labeling the mlc. The lack of empathy, mood swings, racing throughts, dark soul less eyes, and personality changes can all be from a disorder or a side effect of medication. Many mlc'ers uses meds or drugs. The rejection of faith is likely to eliminate guilt, but when you factor in the other symptoms it seems like a spiritual sickness or even possible possession. The sudden onset could be caused by repressed memories or feelings being stirred up by stress and anxiety, but why do they reject us and cheat to heal. Regression is also bizarre. I think depression is the only thing we know for sure is a factor, but what drives it, stress or repressed memories? I guess it definitely seems like an emotional maturation process, but why do they need to destroy their lives to make that happen? I see so many different elements. I think depression and stress are the driving force but there is so much going on with mlc'ers.
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but why do they reject us and cheat to heal.
but why do they need to destroy their lives to make that happen?
I have a very stereotypical MLCer. He has checked every single box.
I feel like he rejected me and destroyed our lives b/c it was the last thing on the list.
He tried everything else and I was the last one standing.
He tried changing his looks - - tattoos, dying hair, Ed hardy T-shirts (he's an old fat guy, btw, so it was far from flattering)
He changed his job -- 25+ years with the same company was suddenly filled with issues.
Popping vitality pills to hang on to his vitality -- handfuls of "megamen" and pills off of the internet everyday.
New hobbies - - guns, gym, rejoined his band from the '80s
None of these things worked, I supported every decision he made, didn't matter.... something was wrong with HIM. If he wasn't happy, and he tried everything, what was left that he could change "to be happy"?
Me.
I was the only thing left that he hadn't tried to change so it must be me.
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Mine also checks most if not all the boxes.
Tattoo, new car, constantly looking at new jobs/careers, dyed her hair, vitamins, ton of new products, work out freak who wants to run marathons, can't remember anything her LT is revisionist and st is horrible, trying new religions, drinking & using pain meds, all new clothes, tanning, bad parenting skills, monster, new values, PA & EA, filled for divorce, depression, lying, mood swings, darker soul less eyes, new young friends and Young BF, constantly complaining about gut pain and difficult periods, new music taste, and finally she rearranged the furniture in every room. I'm sure I missed some stuff.
I just don't see how a bad marriage that I was never aware was bad would trigger all of these classic symptoms. Also the feelings and script is the same. It is just crazy to me that they don't see all of this change as a red flag. I get that they are crazy, but how do they function in high stress jobs like my W? It just seems they can somehow keep some parts of their life together while other parts fall apart.
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One guy who works with my h told my friend that he thought h is loopy now. Exact words. Other people eventually see it
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Other people eventually see it
Yes they do. Most people don't want to get involved so they say nothing.
drinking & using pain meds, depression, lying, mood swings, darker soul less eyes, ...
I get that they are crazy, but how do they function in high stress jobs like my W?
They don't. Sometimes they get a temporary pass b/c they have good reputations due to their past. At first people around them think they are "off" due to going through a divorce. Most people understand normal divorces however, once the divorce is done and the MLCer is still drinking, lying, etc.... it will catch up with them. People, especially bosses, will only take so much.
My MLCer was fired from his 400K job last year. He is now selling real estate. :P
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I'm not sure if this is always the case, or maybe it isn't during certain times in their progress (or lack thereof).
I have no way of validating since my H moved so far away, but he started a new job when he arrived at his new city in June and in February he claims he was "hand picked" by a higher up for a new position.
Could be a lie, since he's also not honoring our separation agreement/not paying me and I get credit alerts that show he hasn't been paying his bills since early November. (I've been thinking that's likely because he's just on a mad spending spree and he doesn't want to pay me or his debts so why should he?)
But since my H's main issue is with feeling not good enough and he's desperate to be seen as someone important, I would think he's very focused on his job because if he lost it, OW and his new friends would think he was a failure and that's the very feeling he ran away from to begin with.
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But since my H's main issue is with feeling not good enough and he's desperate to be seen as someone important, I would think he's very focused on his job because if he lost it, OW and his new friends would think he was a failure and that's the very feeling he ran away from to begin with.
Oh a thousand times yes. In The Leavers case, that's how he got himself into so much trouble.
When he switched jobs about six years ago, he said in a few years he would be making about double. That would be close to a million dollars a year. Honestly, I'm not sure if he was telling the truth or not but I'm sure the girl was so very impressed with potentially hooking up with a millionaire.
After he left me he was involved in illegal activities with his company. Wasn't too hard to find out the details, it was all over the local news. 400K wasn't enough to impress so he got greedy, hence the illegal activity.
That's why he was fired.
Now he's a real estate agent. Through the "fake" grapevine (basically what he is telling everyone), he is doing great.
It's been one year, he has not sold one house. Not one. He has a "flip" on the market but it's been almost a year and all I have to do is go on Zillow to estimate how much he bought, put into, and how much he is trying to sell this house. If he's lucky, he might break even.
Why do I care so much? He owes me about 10K (bills for my son's college that we agreed to pay) and he doesn't have the cash. I can see his bank account, it's always hovering less than a few hundred. I watch to make sure he is not hiding money that belongs to me.
Right now he is doing everything in his power to keep up a reputation that he is "the man". Even if it means living in a house he can't afford, driving a truck he can't afford, emptying out his retirement and racking up the credit card bills. Obviously his reputation is more important than our son's college education.
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Wow Nah, and how stupid does his OW have to be not to see the reality?
Really makes you wonder...
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Isn't that the reason they like them stupid?
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A very interesting thread....
I haven't read every post but giving my answer in regard to the functioning at work, sometimes they swap 'addictions' ....and running activity and their job can be a distraction and another addiction, rather like when people work out too much, my h has worked too much.....
BUT that's changing and I believe my H is trying to cause himself trouble in work by not doing even menial tasks............which is caused him to be confronted to his supervisor and then reported to management......
now, (as I posted on my thread) people in work are starting to see he isn't himself and the one constant person he has worked with since just before the crisis and throughout, until a few weeks ago told him when H complained the "job" has changed
No Mr 1T its not the job that's changed its you.......very telling!!
But most of the time the MLC'er distances themselves from all the people who knew them before so the changes are not so apparent...like your H Nas.
As for doctors, I went to see H's doctor after this all happened. She wouldn't discuss H at all (rightfully) but the next time H went to see her he told me she had ordered all these blood tests, lots and lots of them which didn't seem related to the thing he went to her for (which was diarrhea! after he came back off holiday with OW - who says there is no karma bus?!!) so it seems she was taking me seriously.
He had the blood tests and then was called in to see her BUT he missed his appointment and never rebooked because a month or so after he left our docs to go to the OW docs and so I don't know what happened after that......
My H had a brain bleed in April last year he has also had prostate issues and has had to have a procedure on his prostate (I don't know what).
I do know, like most MLC'ers he has had erectile problems but also urinary problems...
As part of his brain bleed care he has had a brain scan and MRI I would love to know what those showed in relation to MLC and the way his brain is functioning.....
BUT none of these professionals who have seen him would know there is anything wrong with him because they don't know H as he was only I do, his family and my family and our close friends and in the UK consultations are a few minutes at most so they would not pick up on anything PLUS my therapist, who did believe in MLC and is a neuroscientist said to me she felt they function mostly normally when dealing with every day life, its when they are dealing with anything emotional, you see the disjointed thinking/irrational thinking and the anger and immaturity.
Hence why its documented on here of MLC'ers showing this in court/mediation situations and in therapy but not in other places.....IMO
I agree with what Velika said about talking about this and not mentioning MLC we should not be ashamed of it either and I also agree the affair is the thing that complicates this as being taken really seriously......I am always upfront with people and say my H has had issues and is trying to deal with those and I am supporting him.
Obviously now that's not the case as I am not standing but I will be there for him if he was ever to crash......because I love him......but I am not standing and waiting for him because lately I don't know if his issues are bigger than "just" MLC and if he wont help himself I will not be a martyr to this...
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My husband has plans to get lab tests done in the near future but hasn't done it yet. I don't know what he is going to get done but when he does I plan to just casually tell him to give them to me so I can store them in the folder with past lab tests we have had done. I'm really curious especially if he decides on his own to do testosterone.
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Hi everyone, MLC is not recognised because it can't be replicated and proved scientificly. Can you imagine trying to recruit a sample of the population who are in crisis to take part in a study. I think there's more of chance in finding a unicorn. There is very little academic evidence that supports MLC.
That's not to say these things don't happen as we know. The problem is science only recognises significant evidence that can be repeated across the population.
I have been studying the menopause/ andropause in heterosexual females/males and it is apparent that females in the 40-60 age group are driving up the divorce rate applications (70%). This is also a time when a lot of females/males are in turmoil with the perimenopause/andropause. This hormonal shift has the ability to increase anger in females/males which might be viewed as monstering. Also the ability in some to change their character and could be related to the MLC Jekyll and Hyde that we see so often complete with severe mood swings and fogged up thinking. The drop in estrogen/testosterone can affect the maternal/paternal instinct and might be related to former doting mothers/fathers not seeming to care about their family as much as before.
The shifting hormones are a sign their reproductive years are coming to an end and might contribute to some trying to validate their sexuality with others in affairs and acting out in the last chance saloon of life. Just my take on things folks.
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Hi everyone, MLC is not recognised because it can't be replicated and proved scientificly. Can you imagine trying to recruit a sample of the population who are in crisis to take part in a study. I think there's more of chance in finding a unicorn. There is very little academic evidence that supports MLC.
That's not to say these things don't happen as we know. The problem is science only recognises significant evidence that can be repeated across the population.
I have been studying the menopause/ andropause in heterosexual females/males and it is apparent that females in the 40-60 age group are driving up the divorce rate applications (70%). This is also a time when a lot of females/males are in turmoil with the perimenopause/andropause. This hormonal shift has the ability to increase anger in females/males which might be viewed as monstering. Also the ability in some to change their character and could be related to the MLC Jekyll and Hyde that we see so often complete with severe mood swings and fogged up thinking. The drop in estrogen/testosterone can affect the maternal/paternal instinct and might be related to former doting mothers/fathers not seeming to care about their family as much as before.
The shifting hormones are a sign their reproductive years are coming to an end and might contribute to some trying to validate their sexuality with others in affairs and acting out in the last chance saloon of life. Just my take on things folks.
Your take on this makes perfect sense to me. After losing both of my grandmothers and my mother in law within a few years, my ex and I both went into MLC. in January of 2018, I had what I believe was my first awakening with his 1 st BD happening a few weeks later after his brother tried to commit suicide. About a month later, I started having hot flashes. About 6 months earlier my ex commented about how he thought his testosterone levels were low. Had all the symptoms but the dr blew him off by saying he was to young.
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MLC is not recognised because it can't be replicated and proved scientificly.
I don't think any psychological states/conditions/illnesses can be proven scientifically. To do that would mean you would have to successfully hold all variables constant except for the one you are trying study. Can't be done when the variables you need to hold constant are contained within a unique and unpredictable human being. Most knowledge on psychological conditions are done by clinical study and evaluation. Even then they are only theories and can be tossed aside over time as more knowledge is gained. (eg. Freud, Jung, and other former psychology giants).
MLC is actually a cluster of separate conditions rather than just one self contained condition. (Narcissism, depression, etc). It's why MLC has many similarities but also why it's not an identical experience from one MLCer to another.
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Hi OHM, thank you for your reply. There are a great deal of similarities between the hormones at play and MLC behaviours such as being more self absorbed to the point of selfishness as the individual tries to self regulate. A lot depends on knowledge during this time and what symptoms to expect and I guess for most people hot flushes are a dead give away a major transitions happening. I would imagine an introspective person would experience awakening sooner due to their personality type and their search for answers to their out of character behaviours. Many spouses hate and blame their partners during this period for seemingly trivial behaviours they once thought nothing of and can get very very upset.
I think all of us from birth should be supplied with a manual with a trouble shooting guide hehe. I for one could do with this. It's only through gaining knowledge I have began to understand the emotional feelings I could never invisage as a younger man. I also believe the doctors clinics should be supplying information freely at this turbulent time. I write this as a LBS not to condone mlcers behaviour but to try and rationalise the "why". If you or anyone else has more thoughts on this subject I'm all ears.
Jackolar12
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Hi Anon, yes constant variables are difficult to lock down and you have more chance in finding the unicorn. Without this MLC may never be identified scientifically but I think a thematic analysis would reveal a number of similarities between MLC and menopause/andropause behaviours. The dialog we make on this site identifies so many common themes that are similar. But consider other conditions of the mind in the DSM. They can't be seen but they can be evaluated and a diagnosis made.
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MLC is actually a cluster of separate conditions rather than just one self contained condition. (Narcissism, depression, etc). It's why MLC has many similarities but also why it's not an identical experience from one MLCer to another.
(https://d2v9y0dukr6mq2.cloudfront.net/video/thumbnail/vfPFP3W/isolated-thumbs-up-icon-bouncing-loop_7j-rk-h5__S0000.jpg)
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Considering several MLCers are younger than 40. Also, my peri-menopause come years after my MLC.
I am certain MLC has to do with depression, just woudn't be so sure it is connected with menopause/andropause for every MLCer.
Psychology theories cannot be replicated and proved scientificly. That is why psychology is not a science. Yet, there is no shortage of LBS, and other people, seeing therapists and believe in their theories.
Even medicine is not a science.
"But consider other conditions of the mind in the DSM. They can't be seen but they can be evaluated and a diagnosis made." sure, but they are not science. MLC can also be evaluated and a diagnose made. We all manage to recognise the signs. That is evaluate and made a diagnose.
Psychiatric illnesses are a grey area. Are they really what we think they are? Most likely not. The views on mental illnesses has been changing. Also, DMS is not used everywhere in the world. Mental illness tends to be diagnosed without blood, neurological and other tests. No other area of medicine gets away with that way of doing things.
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I'm not sexist necessarily. But because most Dr's are men and this seems to effect men quite a bit more. Or seems to be.
My theory:
The whole thing goes underground because there couldn't possibly be anything wrong with them ( meaning men) . So medically they won't recognize it.
They (for years) focus on us and our "female" problems hormones, menopause etc ..everybody has not one problem talking about that. Including us.
But when it comes to men..gee can't talk about depression ED and a host of other things. Threatens their masculinity or something. Guess they think it makes them look weak.
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Here there are more female than male doctors. Same with medicine students, more women than men. At least here, that is not the reason.
Thirty or so years ago there were more male doctors, but it has been decades things changed.
And, at least here, men talk about their issues, including depression. Not all men, of course, but more and more do.
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This hormonal shift has the ability to increase anger in females/males which might be viewed as monstering. Also the ability in some to change their character and could be related to the MLC Jekyll and Hyde that we see so often complete with severe mood swings and fogged up thinking. The drop in estrogen/testosterone can affect the maternal/paternal instinct and might be related to former doting mothers/fathers not seeming to care about their family as much as before.
The shifting hormones are a sign their reproductive years are coming to an end and might contribute to some trying to validate their sexuality with others in affairs and acting out in the last chance saloon of life. Just my take on things folks.
Jackolar
You have certainly hit the nail on the head for me. Ironically after BD my H went for medical tests due to his depression. He was diagnosed with extremely low testosterone. I am unsure what he did to rectify this (if anything), but if he was on any medication it certainly did not help with his personality change, monstering, abandonment of his beloved kids, and his Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde personality transition.
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There will always be outliers with the ages of MLC. The same applies with menopause/ andropause and is another similarity. In my sergery the majority of doctors are females with a rushed 10 minute appointment if your lucky. I was diagnosed a few years ago with gout and an observant podiatrist on my hospital appointment recommended an MRI which discovered I had advanced Charlotte foot and several fractured bones. So much for the doctors diagnosis. They have introduced a lady well being coordinator in my surgery but the services only signpost you to other organisations which do not offer counselling, only community based events to attend.
The whole system is poor in dealing with the prevention of emotional problems developing. Once diagnosed treatment waiting times are very long. The medical profession do not seem concerned about MLC, it would seem many don't believe it exists at all. What would it take to change their minds? And can it be better explained by other phenomena.
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And, at least here, men talk about their issues, including depression. Not all men, of course, but more and more do.
Yes Anjae I agree and that's a good thing..
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I believe that is the question still. if most mental illnesses are not dx through testing but pure behavior and thoughts , it still doesn't make sense that mlc is not dx. I do believe it is a true type of mental illness. call it a syndrome . syndrome definition: is a group of symptoms in which a dx is made : which all mlcers have the same of . i can't get over the similarities, words spoken, action, rage, upbrupty leaving , the abandonment of children , do not all fit into a dx for something in the medical/psychological world. maybe because it has been made of something people make fun of. all the jokes of a midlife crisis. ( i would have to say those are the transitions and not true crisis cases). I quite honestly am so sick of people saying , it was your marriage,. he just didn't want to be with you. then can they explain the abandment of their kids, their partying , acting like teenagers. no responsibility taken. most become broke. why the anger and blame on the lbs. do people make fun of bipolar or depression or anxiety ? nope and they are all dx. if they were made fun of , would people take it seriously? probably not . just another view.
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Blaming hormones is a popular thing in culture especially when a woman is in a bad mood, either her period or menopause is blamed. I don't think that MLC is a hormonal problem though. It just happens to occur when there are hormonal changes going on in people but that doesn't necessarily mean the hormones are involved.
Look at the number of people in the poll above that have said their spouses were abused as children. I think the rates are likely higher. Simply because at least in the case of sexual abuse, I have read that it can take 30 years before a sexually abused child will even tell ANYONE what happened to them. I know an LBS whose MLCer's attitudes toward his mother and her own remarks suggest that she abused him in some way. My friend suspects she molested him as a child. But he has never said that she did at all. So those who voted "no" in the above poll may simply be married to MLCers who have kept the abuse they suffered secret.
That said, I believe MLC is caused by damage to the growing child's brain due to abuse. There are studies that show that abuse can affect a child's brain development. Obviously, there are also CPTSD elements that could come into play in that regard. The affects of what happened decades earlier only manifest themselves at a later date, due to some sort of trigger.
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Blaming hormones is a popular thing in culture especially when a woman is in a bad mood, either her period or menopause is blamed. I don't think that MLC is a hormonal problem though. It just happens to occur when there are hormonal changes going on in people but that doesn't necessarily mean the hormones are involved.
On the other hand Goner several women who have committed murder have successfully defended their case by using out of control hormones during their menses as the cause of their murderous behaviours. Yes the hormones made me do it!! Adolescents go through puberty and change their attitudes and behaviours and so could an adult going through a change of life. These changes are medically recognised while MLC is not. Other cultures value old age and have a better time during the menopause/andropause.
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Keep, no, it does not make MLC is not diagnosed, since most mentall illness is diagnosed on behaviour and thoughts, not tests.
Do you have anything against female doctors, Jack? If the doctors were male, the appointment was going to be as short. It has to do with the system, not the Dr gender.
Doctors make mistakes, regardless of gender or country. Medicine is not a science, let alone and exact one.
But those are different issues.
The medical profession do not seem concerned about MLC, it would seem many don't believe it exists at all. What would it take to change their minds?
I don't know. A start may be to define what is MLC. A doctor is not going to pay attention to the oh, it is a childhood/FOO issue, unless they are a psychiatrist and even so, it would depend.
And can it be better explained by other phenomena.
It can be explained with depression, that is a medical issue.
On the other hand Goner several women who have committed murder have successfully defended their case by using out of control hormones during their menses as the cause of their murderous behaviours. Yes the hormones made me do it!!
Maybe where you're from. And men have managed to use a series of other things. Lets be clear, hormones can totally mess up some people, men or women. It is not an exclusive of women. But there is no indication most MLCers have an hormonal probk
Depression can totally mess up men and women.
I don't believe MCL comes from sexual abuse in childhood. I think it has to do with stress, depression and fear of aging. All real life MLCers I know, my self aside, mention age as the cause of their crisis. And depression can totally mess up both men and women.
The reason why MLC is not recognised medically and in society is because even among those who believe in MLC there is no consensus about what MLC is/what causes it.
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My husband has explained his choices as being due to fear of aging. No doubt about that. He's been very explicit in that regard. I will give you that many of them do use aging as justification for what they do.
However, his actual odd behavior during this MLC can only be explained as very twisted and complex reaction and manifestation of the abuse he suffered as a child and his childhood in general. It has absolutely nothing to do with the coming old age.
I think there is a disconnect with between how they justify their behavior and the actual behavior itself.
And perhaps that is why and how they eventually come out of it. They realize their justifications just didn't hold water and they realize what was subconsciously motivating them.
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I suspect it is mostly recognised as Anjae says by the external symptoms...depression or anxiety, maybe addiction if that's in the mix. Occasionally maybe as a kind of complex-ptsd depending on life events. There are a few therapists who see it as a kind of crisis, even if they don't call it MLC. Maybe less so with psychiatrists. Like other complex physical illnesses though, multiple causes and differential 'symptoms' make it difficult to pin down probably. And I suspect most MLCers - while in crisis anyway - are less than fully engaged or honest in the process. Most seem to use therapy to justify their choices.
Perhaps later in the crisis, therapists and psychiatrists may see a fuller picture and the MLCer may be more actively ready to look at the wider picture.
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I will give you that many of them do use aging as justification for what they do.
I think often that is all there is to it, we just like to complicate what is simple. They start with the age thinking thing, it leads to them being depressed, then, bang I need to do something now before I become too old. Forgetting that while they are doing it they are getting old.
Not all MLCers were abused. Therefore, abuse cannot be the reason. Or, at least, it cannot be the reason for all MLCers.
I don't know what makes them come out of it. It seems to be different for each one. But I have never heard a post-MLC MLCer saying anything other than it was because of age. It there were others issues, they forgot them or never knew.
Therapist and psychiatrists don't seem to help at all in a real MLC. There are many therapists and experts, Larry Bilotta, Jed Diamond, Conway and others who say they can help a person in MLC. What they mean is a person in midlife transition. So far, I have never come across anyone who can really help a deep in crisis true MLCer.
When a MLCer hits rock bottom, then, a therapist/psychiatrists may be of help. It was for my cousin.
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Keep, no, it does not make MLC is not diagnosed, since most mentall illness is diagnosed on behaviour and thoughts, not tests.
Do you have anything against female doctors, Jack? If the doctors were male, the appointment was going to be as short. It has to do with the system, not the Dr gender.
Doctors make mistakes, regardless of gender or country. Medicine is not a science, let alone and exact one.
But those are different issues.
The medical profession do not seem concerned about MLC, it would seem many don't believe it exists at all. What would it take to change their minds?
I don't know. A start may be to define what is MLC. A doctor is not going to pay attention to the oh, it is a childhood/FOO issue, unless they are a psychiatrist and even so, it would depend.
And can it be better explained by other phenomena.
It can be explained with depression, that is a medical issue.
On the other hand Goner several women who have committed murder have successfully defended their case by using out of control hormones during their menses as the cause of their murderous behaviours. Yes the hormones made me do it!!
Maybe where you're from. And men have managed to use a series of other things. Lets be clear, hormones can totally mess up some people, men or women. It is not an exclusive of women. But there is no indication most MLCers have an hormonal probk
Depression can totally mess up men and women.
I don't believe MCL comes from sexual abuse in childhood. I think it has to do with stress, depression and fear of aging. All real life MLCers I know, my self aside, mention age as the cause of their crisis. And depression can totally mess up both men and women.
The reason why MLC is not recognised medically and in society is because even among those who believe in MLC there is no consensus about what MLC is/what causes it.
Anjae I only see female doctors in my surgery who I happen to like. Yes the systems at fault I haven’t said otherwise and doctors make mistakes and leave trusting people in pain and get sued/ struck off for their negligence some times.
People are driven by chemicals which include hormones and yes certain people can get crazy when their out of balance just like people in MLC, the example I gave was an American murder case. We haven’t had an andropause defence to my knowledge in my country.
I think childhood issues might have relevance with some people in the throes of turmoil and the fog of confusion looking back for tried and tested coping mechanisms to help them heal if they can’t see forward.
If the medical profession thought MLC existed it would have been in the DSM by now but there’s simply no tangible evidence to support it other than depression which can happen to any of us and can be attributed to many causes. The lack of academic research in this area would need to be addressed to prove its existence and importance. And I for one think surging hormones at midlife have a lot to do with it.
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Right there with you, Jackolar12. Mentioning hormones may seem like a personal attack, but if you think more in terms of neurotransmitters and how new the science around them is, it's valid. Two resources I found early on that helped were the book "Venus on Fire, Mars on Ice" by Dr. John Gray, and this link from Dr. Joe Carver (especially the section on Serotonin): http://www.drjoecarver.com/clients/49355/File/Chemical%20Imbalance.html
No matter what I have learned and studied in all of these years post BD, I always go back to that link to find the most resonate truth for my situation.
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Yes, hormones are chemicals. Yes, unbalanced hormones cause many problems. Thyroid, for example.
I am not sold on the hormones on midlife being the main reason for MLC. It could be, but If dropping hormones is the cause, how can MLCers have so much energy? One of my problems with peri-menopause was (now it is better) the lack of energy. Lack of testosterone brings depression, tiredness, less energy, etc. Yet, High Energy MLCers are on high speed. Wallowers have overt depression and don't have the energy for crazy MCL things.
To my knowledge in my country there has not been defenses based on menopause or andropause, our system is very different from the American, or even the UK one. In theory, someone with their hormones, or other chemicals, messed up could murder someone and that being the reason, that is, the hormonal/chemical changes affecting the person reasoning.
If the medical profession thought MLC existed it would have been in the DSM by now ...
Maybe, maybe not. The medical community isn't always on things and MLC may be something they don't want on DMS or the European equivalent. Doctors have MLC and they may not be open to the idea.
We know many things that exist were not on medical manuals for years.
And we can recognise MLC without much, or any trouble. Therefore there are identifiable patters and behaviours. There are many types of depression. Post-partum one wasn't a thing until it was, etc. Who knows if one day MLC will not be seen as one more type of depression? Each type is depression, but there are differences between them.
Another thing no one mentions, or hardly mentions, vitamins and minerals. It may be a lack of those, or a lack of those may make things worst. I am fairly certain all MLCers don't have good levels of those. The depression and their lifestyle alone would erode them.
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Thanks RT2, supports always welcome. I did mention heterosexual female/male hormones to try and make it more palatable for everyone but I guess you can’t please everyone.
I’m finding a lot of links between hormone driven behaviours and the alleged MLC phenomena. It’s an interesting debate. Would you be able to guide me with how to reply without quoting as I’m a bit of a technifobe and I can’t always find a reply button at the bottom of replies as I did with yours. I will check out the link you sent and the books as it’s an area of great interest to me. Always a pleasure to hear from you R2T.
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There isn't a reply button on every post. Only below the last one, so that a new one can be made. That is why you saw it on Ready2's post.
If you want to bring something someone said verbatim without quote, copy and paste inside " " and mention who said it.
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It is an interesting article Anjae...I suppose what is puzzling is why MLC does not seem to be changed much even if our spouses are on some of these medications...what is missing from the neurotransmitter picture...
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Thanks Anjae, I’m a butter fingers with technology you see. So just use the bottom button and copy and paste in this box sounds good to me.
Fluctuating levels of hormones Angae like the waves on the sea peaking ( lotta energy crazy behaviours) and troughing (tired and more normal) a real Jeckle and Hyde scenario.
I’ve been talking to many women and some men as they are more shy to reveal their problems about their shifting hormones and many feel they could cheerfully dispatch their loving spouse at times during this phase of life. Several have stated the character changes in their loved ones which is similar to MLC.
I totally agree hormones have a major impact on our lives and appreciate not all will agree with my point of view. I feel the study of hormonal fluctuations and behaviour could give us a better insight into what we now call MLC and would welcome responses from people who have gone through this phenomenon and with hindsight can link it with hormonal activity.
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I hadn't read the article yet, Treasur, I was replying to Jack.
Now I have. The article is from 2002. All the neuroscience/neurobiology courses I did were more recent than it by many years. The way things are seen have changed, and keeps changing.
Neurotransmitters are interesting, but there is far more to the brain and depression that them. Keep using meds like SSRI, that target serotoing and don't work for 50% of those they are given and the ones who do most will need them again is not good.
You see, a psychiatrist does not have a clue what is, or is not, missing/high/low. They don't aks for tests. Or most of them don't. They give you med, one size fits almost all. Some may give an atypical antidepressant, like Bupropion (Elontril/Wellbutrin, etc). It targets dopamine and norepinephrine, not serotinine. If the problem is not dopamine or norepinephrine it will not do a thing.
Year before MLC, Mr J had depression as a consequence of burnout. He was given fluoxetine (Prozac). It literally drove him mad and made in angry, very angry. By then, he was aware enough, talked to doctors who remove the med. I think that is the reason why he refused to see a doctor when his MLC depression come. Remember he said he was depressed. He was afraid of the meds because he had a terrible experience with them.
As a general rule, psychiatrists work in the dark and perscribe what they think will work. It does not mean it will. And often it does not, and can even make matters worst.
What is missing in our spouses from a neurotransmitter picture? I don't know. I don't even know if it is a neurotransmitters problem. Since many MLCers that are given anti-depressants, usually SSRIS have such bad reactions to them, I would say the problem is not the neurotransmitters. Or just not the neurotransmiters. Or it may be one that is not being target by the meds.
The current ways of treating depression aren't effective. I would say that for MLCers a mood stabilizer would make more sense than an anti-depressant. High energy MLC mimics bipolar, mood stabilizers work for bipolar.
But what if the matter can be solved with vitamins and mineral? Or what it the problem is with the electrical rather than chemical part of neurotransmition? What if it is the pre-frontal cortex, as a few here think? What if is is several brain and other things?
You're welcome, Jack.
I’ve been talking to many women and some men as they are more shy to reveal their problems about their shifting hormones and many feel they could cheerfully dispatch their loving spouse at times during this phase of life. Several have stated the character changes in their loved ones which is similar to MLC.
My real life experience with MLCer, my cousin included, is different. For them it was age, including Mr J and my cousin who were 36 and 37 and BD. Old, right. ::) They thought they were missing out and had to do things "now". Mr J had left over 12 years ago and remain in his MLC life. My cousin was a wallower and never went anywhere. He did nothing to his homones and now that he is nearly 50 he has much more energy.
I have no idea what changed other than he hitting rock bottom in Summer 2018, went to see a friend of mine who is a psychiatrist and was able to help him.
I fully agree hormones have a major impact on our lives. I am just not certain they are the cause or MLC. Or the case for most/many MLCers.
They don't seem to do a thing to their hormones, yet they become normal again. We really don't know since we have no tests. Testing MLCers, now, that is a challange. ::)
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Yes Anjae, trying to test them would be quite the experience and no doubt why studies have not taken place. Growing older is a natural process for most people and can’t be prevented The ones that fear aging and rebel against it with MLC behaviours could be fuelled by surging hormones which eventually settle down and could effect high energy as well as wallowers who channel their energies differently.
It might also explain why many can’t remember their actions and behaviours during this time as their brain chemistry could be in an altered state. The settling of these imbalances could be linked to the awakening in some and the continued untreated surges might explain why some remain in MLC. Again just my take on things.
Well folks it’s almost my bed time in cold wet United Kingdom and I wish you all a good day/night according to your locations.
Jackolar 12
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Poor doctors if they tried to tests MLCers. ::)
Yes, growing old is normal. They could be fueled by hormones, but other brain and body chemicals, by electrical brain problems, by something else or by a combination of things.
We only see the depression, overt or covert, and the behaviours.
Regarless of the cause/causes their brains are in an altered state, depression of any type alone alters the brain. Of that there is no doubt.
They could run out of something essencial for Replay, for example, whatever that thing may be. And if there is a thing, or things, it may even differ from MLCer to MLCer.
When you have the time you may want to read our many threads on neuroscience/neurobilogy, etc. There are lots of interesting things there.
Have a good night, Jack.
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R2T
That's a good article you shared.
That actually fits my W pretty good. The low serotonin.
Funny it mentioned MLC too. Is it all of it??? IDK. But it dang sure could be a factor.
That's my main question. Let a say it was.
How do you talk and get their crazy self to he see a doctor???
I read to where people that were abused as children have lower serotonin levels later on. Women on birth control pills have lower serotonin also. More depression.
Also said levels are lower when less sum is out. Vitamin D is low.
Makes alot of sense with my W.
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How do you talk and get their crazy self to he see a doctor???
As a general rule, you don't. And when they go see a doctor is does not seem to work or go well at all.
Ready2's husband saw a doctor that diagnosed him with bipolar and gave him SSRI, an anti-depressant for serotonine. It only made things worst.
My cousin who had MLC, before hit rock bottom saw countless therapists and psychiatrist. The psychiatrists diagnosed him with every mental illness in the book and gave him meds for all those illnesses he didn't had. At a point, because of the meds, he tried to kill himself.
There are several stories on HS how taking a MLCer to a doctor or therapist before they hit rock bottom/are ready for it does not work and often only makes matters worst.
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I totally agree hormones have a major impact on our lives and appreciate not all will agree with my point of view. I feel the study of hormonal fluctuations and behaviour could give us a better insight into what we now call MLC and would welcome responses from people who have gone through this phenomenon and with hindsight can link it with hormonal activity.
Jackolar - I have been thinking about your theory.
My H as I have previously stated was diagnosed with very low testosterone levels immediately after BD. Approximately 4 months prior to BD he was extremely depressed, had sleepless nights, which I assumed was due to stress within his work due to mass redundancies.
Your post has got me thinking 🤔🤔. After researching the symptoms of Andropause I believe that he may well have been experiencing this (and still is).
About 2 years prior to BD my H commenced a gym/fitness obsession. And I mean obsession, he was addicted. He was (and I believe still is) taking various hormone stimulants (pre-work outs, protein powders and steroids) in order to build muscle and maintain stamina. In your opinion, how would the addition of artificial hormones and steroids have on a middle aged person going through andropause symptoms?
As I have mentioned his personality is totally opposite to how he was. Aggression is beyond. He has abandoned his once idolised children...he was very proud of being a dad....now he has vanished.
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I'm not Jack, but I can tell you steroids are never good, aside from specific medical conditions. Even on those cases they have to been taken with extreme care and under medical supervision.
What do you mean by artificial hormones? Synthetic hormones, like the ones that replicates testosterone? Always better to take bio-identical ones. In either case, they must be prescribed by a doctor and a person needs to be regularly checked. Excess causes damages. Also, often dosage needs to be adjusted. A endocrinologist must be consulted and blood tests taken.
If your husband is going the route many men (and even women) go of taking steroids and hormones for fitness purposes he is putting himself at danger. Hormones and steroids, regarless of age or gender must always be taken with extreme care. They are very dangerous substances if not.
As I have mentioned his personality is totally opposite to how he was.
This is normal in MLC even if the cause is not hormones related or the person does not have your husband's situation. It is impossible to know exactly what changed him, hormones being a good possibility. But since he is on steroids and taking hormones, who knows how much more damage he has caused to the existing situation.
Aggression is beyond.
Normal with steroids and taking hormones. Also normal is MLC. Since is taking the mentioned substances, the agression may had been worsened.
Why is he taking steroids and hormones?
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Why is he taking steroids and hormones?
Yes I am fully aware of the risks and danger of steroids.
He is now a gym junkie....obviously for enhancing muscle mass and performance. Trying to remain young physically. Steroid use unfortunateky is epidemic amongst the young men worldwide.
I believe that the combination of Andropause, steroid and hormone use, depression has exacerbated his MLC symptoms and actions.
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I believe that the combination of Andropause, steroid and hormone use, depression has exacerbated his MLC symptoms and actions.
And I would agree.
Yes, steroid use by young men, and not so young men, is a world epidemic. Even women are jumping on the trend.
Gym junkie ... taking steroids and hormones at middle age. Truly hope nothing happens to him.
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Gym junkie ... taking steroids and hormones at middle age. Truly hope nothing happens to him.
So do we...but as you know we can do knowing...love and care from a distance. He is a train wreck waiting to occur sadly....
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So do we...but as you know we can do knowing...love and care from a distance. He is a train wreck waiting to occur sadly....
I know. It is so sad.
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R2T
That's a good article you shared.
That actually fits my W pretty good. The low serotonin.
Funny it mentioned MLC too. Is it all of it??? IDK. But it dang sure could be a factor.
I really believe it is. The perfect storm! I don't think we use that phrase around here as much any more, but it sure fits.
That's my main question. Let a say it was.
How do you talk and get their crazy self to he see a doctor???
I read to where people that were abused as children have lower serotonin levels later on. Women on birth control pills have lower serotonin also. More depression.
Also said levels are lower when less sum is out. Vitamin D is low.
Makes alot of sense with my W.
xH went on his own accord. I guess you could say I was lucky in that regard, except as Anjae points out below, it didn't have a clean outcome. He was also diagnosed with low D. I too had a crisis, and I believe the birth control pills I was on at the time were a contributing factor. But early menopause also runs in my family, and likely was part of what I went through as well. So many things to add to the list! ;)
How do you talk and get their crazy self to he see a doctor???
As a general rule, you don't. And when they go see a doctor is does not seem to work or go well at all.
Ready2's husband saw a doctor that diagnosed him with bipolar and gave him SSRI, an anti-depressant for serotonine. It only made things worst.
It's hard to say if long term it would have helped or not, because both his psych and a therapist had a plan with him, and he wouldn't follow it. At one point one of the meds he was on (Celexa) did clear his mind, but physically the side effects were horrible. It was after the switch to the next drug that I saw the significant negative reaction mentally that he never returned from, and of course, he stopped taking them cold turkey which also did its damage.
SSRI drugs, I have learned, are usually a bad choice for bipolars (at least without a separate mood stabilizer along with them). Higher risk of mania. Which is what I saw.
I had read up on Pyroluria, which is chronic deficiency in B6 and Zinc (creators of serotonin). I asked a few pharmacist friends if they thought someone with chronic low serotonin should be on an SSRI, since those drugs don't actually create more serotonin, they just reuse faster what is already in the body than what the body naturally would, sort of creating the illusion of more serotonin. One said perfectly that it would be like having a vineyard with a low yield of grapes one year, and trying to squeeze the grapes harder to get more juice out of them to meet your quota. Not gonna work. So it was a doomed plan, but there wasn't enough time for the professionals to get there with him to find that out.
It's all equally as fascinating as it is heartbreaking.
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SSRI drugs, I have learned, are usually a bad choice for bipolars (at least without a separate mood stabilizer along with them). Higher risk of mania. Which is what I saw.
They are. Even with a mood stabilizer along with them. Probably because bipolar does not have much to do with serotonin. Aripiprazole (Abilify) an atypical antipsychotic and Bupropion an atypical anti-depresant (Elontril/Wellbutrin, etc) along with a mood stabilizer have a better effect. And Lamotrigine is a great med for bipolar. It comes from neurology.
My wallower cousin was brought back to normal by my friend who is a psychiatrist with a smart combination of Lamotrigine, Elontril and Alprazolam. Elontril was the first med to go, Alprazolam the last. He was then given an anti-anxiety which name is escaping to take for a while and then keep for SOS. He still has it, but hardly ever takes it. Only when he feels more stressed.
I am fairly, it not totally, certain, that lack of vitamins and minerals is involved in the MLC mess. Most likely low vitamins D, B6, B12, B9 (folate), magnesium and zinc. There may be others. Zinc, like Iron can be dangerous and is best left for a doctor to prescribe. Another thing I think MLCers miss is vitamin C.
True, SSRI don't make more serotonin. Nor do the domapine targeting ones make more dopamine. They just use existing one. It really is not a great idea. But it has been what doctors go for. Time to start to think of things differently.
Professionals should know the effects of SSRIs in bipolar and that they don't create more serotonine. The physicall and/or mental side effects can be terrible with any type of anti-depressants, but SSRIs are more prone to those.
I think it is more heartbreaking.
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Several people have mentioned you can't study MLC because no MLCer would willingly submit to medical exams for it.
I think the way it might be eventually identified would be in some sort of longitudinal study where they follow kids from childhood to old age and have some sort of record of the abuse they suffered as children as part of that. And then they would notice higher divorce rates, mental issues, whatever, in middle age, in those children who suffered abuse. There may already be studies that show that but the only way it really think it is something you can't simply study in isolation AFTER it hits.
Even if you think the issue is hormones, you would need a before and after measurement of hormone levels in the individual to know if that really was a factor. Again, only in an ongoing longitudinal study are you going to get that kind of information as a byproduct.
I know there are a few studies like this in existence but who knows whether they have collected the kind of data that could be mined for this.
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My gut instinct, and the evidence of my then h's behaviour, suggested to me that the SSRI he was on - bc his crippling depression and anxiety did make him go to see a psychiatrist initiallly - probably tamped the symptoms down enough to stop him killing himself. But it also left him an emotional zombie who was almost addicted to doing what his psychiatrist said and believing he would be on SSRIs for the rest of his life bc the psychiatrist said so.
My instinct after several months was that something was missing from the picture...and then boom, BD and off to the wacky races. Logic told me that he was still unrecognisable, still obviously broken if functional and still nothing like the person he had been before. That if he had lived well without medication for almost two decades, it was logical to assume that after a given period, he could do so again. That the psychiatrist had not known him before...it was very frustrating actually to see rationally from the outside that something about his treatment was obviously not working after more than a year, dang more than two years actually, to know that his behaviour was not normal or like him but no one would listen to me at all. Did the SSRI make it worse? Did he need a mood stabiliser? Was he lying to his psychiatrist? Did ow replace medication? Is he still medicated to the eyeballs? No idea.
I have no idea what the 'answer' was, or what was missing...just that rationally to me I saw him get more and more extreme and bonkers not less...so something wasn't right. But I had to accept that there was simply nothing at all that I could do about it, that as much as I wanted to support his recovery regardless of whether our m made it or not, everyone else including him saw my voice as irrelevant.
It was one of the most painful things to accept actually after being part of a loving team for almost two decades. That there was nothing I could do and that I was being judged poorly for even wanting to.
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Hi Brenross, the steroids make him feel good about himself and boosts the flagging ego. Exercise in general boosts serotonin the feel good factor hormone. If he’s taking other substances like testosterone it may be an attempt to rectify his low testosterone levels.
The problem with steroids is the amount used and frequency of use and rest periods in between. Steroids taken in excess can weaken the heart.Testosterone and anabolic steroids also affect the central nervous system. The locations in the brain where they have effects are closely connected to the centers that adjust mood, sexuality and aggressiveness.
Around 20 to 30 percent of those who abuse testosterone and anabolic steroids have mood disorders that meet the criteria of psychiatric disease classification, such as depression, anxiety and decreases in cognitive abilities which many Mlcers display.
Around 30 percent who use excessive doses of testosterone and anabolic steroids are aggressive, hostile and irritated during the intake period. These hormones reduce impulse control and contribute to previously stable individuals becoming violent following hormone consumption which could be viewed as monstering in some.
Hope this helps
Jackolar 12
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My gut instinct, and the evidence of my then h's behaviour, suggested to me that the SSRI he was on - bc his crippling depression and anxiety did make him go to see a psychiatrist initiallly - probably tamped the symptoms down enough to stop him killing himself. But it also left him an emotional zombie who was almost addicted to doing what his psychiatrist said and believing he would be on SSRIs for the rest of his life bc the psychiatrist said so.
My instinct after several months was that something was missing from the picture...and then boom, BD and off to the wacky races. Logic told me that he was still unrecognisable, still obviously broken if functional and still nothing like the person he had been before. That if he had lived well without medication for almost two decades, it was logical to assume that after a given period, he could do so again. That the psychiatrist had not known him before...it was very frustrating actually to see rationally from the outside that something about his treatment was obviously not working after more than a year, dang more than two years actually, to know that his behaviour was not normal or like him but no one would listen to me at all. Did the SSRI make it worse? Did he need a mood stabiliser? Was he lying to his psychiatrist? Did ow replace medication? Is he still medicated to the eyeballs? No idea.
I have no idea what the 'answer' was, or what was missing...just that rationally to me I saw him get more and more extreme and bonkers not less...so something wasn't right. But I had to accept that there was simply nothing at all that I could do about it, that as much as I wanted to support his recovery regardless of whether our m made it or not, everyone else including him saw my voice as irrelevant.
It was one of the most painful things to accept actually after being part of a loving team for almost two decades. That there was nothing I could do and that I was being judged poorly for even wanting to.
I don't think there's ever been a post I could relate so much to. I can still remember laying in a tub weeping in sheer terror that these drugs might have caused brain damage that could not be repaired. I still don't know the total depth of the role they played, but there's comfort in the acceptance of it all now that has replaced the fear. Big hugs to you Treasur for living through it too.
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Several people have mentioned you can't study MLC because no MLCer would willingly submit to medical exams for it.
I think the way it might be eventually identified would be in some sort of longitudinal study where they follow kids from childhood to old age and have some sort of record of the abuse they suffered as children as part of that. And then they would notice higher divorce rates, mental issues, whatever, in middle age, in those children who suffered abuse. There may already be studies that show that but the only way it really think it is something you can't simply study in isolation AFTER it hits.
Even if you think the issue is hormones, you would need a before and after measurement of hormone levels in the individual to know if that really was a factor. Again, only in an ongoing longitudinal study are you going to get that kind of information as a byproduct.
I know there are a few studies like this in existence but who knows whether they have collected the kind of data that could be mined for this.
Nodding. And even if there was a way to by chance have the "before" hormone levels, from what I understand, "normal" is sort of a subjective range but will be specific to each individual. So what might be "low testosterone" in one person won't be a red flag in another. It would take a big swing to show any changes, and as you say, that's usually when they will probably shun doctors anyway. Ten or twenty years down the road, who knows, maybe the best evidence of anything will be the archives of our anecdotal stories, where more parallels can be drawn. We're the only willing test subjects! ;)
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But since not all MLCers were abused and not all abused people have MLC, I am not sure that would lead to any conclusions.
Of course if the problem is hormones one would need a before, during and after measurement. However, for those who have been diagnosed with low (or high) hormonal levels, and that includes thyroid, it is a factor to have in consideration.
Treasur, if you husband had a psychiatrist and something was not working after one of two years the psychiatrist either wasn't very good or didn't had a clue. I think anti-anxiety meds work better for MLCers than SSRIs. Pretty much all the stories that involve a MLCer and SSRIs are identical, things got worst. I am talking before the MLCer hitting rock bottom/liminality.
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Modern technology that monitors the brain centres and activities such as the amygdala could be used to see the effect of hormones during normal menses and compared to brain activity during the perimenopause to give a baseline average among a group of mixed ages and ethnicities.
A thematic analysis could be carried out to identify commonalities and the group split into 3. Hormone treatment could be introduced to a control group, a placebo hormone to the next and the last group given educational knowledge and coaching surrounding the effects of menses and menopause.
After the experiment individual qualitative interviews could be taken from each participant and compared to the original thematic analysis to contrast and compare and look for changes among the groups. One theme I would predict is the amount of individuals who fear the menopause onset after dealing with the menses. It would be interesting to compare the percentages with fears to the percentages of MLC occurrences in women that we see on this board. As this might be a contributing factor leading to MLC in females
The males are going to be more problematic due to the absence of menses.
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There does seem to be some growing consensus about mid life transition, but even the books I’ve read on that dismiss the notion of full blown crisis, while describing the very same crisis and just calling it a rough transition. They also seemed in favor of claiming the marriages destroyed weren’t all that good which leads me to believe they are taking the word of the one in crisis while they are in crisis. That’s pretty faulty science.
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Most MLCers seem to be men and male MLCers seem to cause the most damage. Starting with man may make more sense for an hormonal test. But I am not found or people being guinea pigs and either having all their live monotorized or women to have to be monitorized for years on end.
There is a full blown crisis. We're dealing with it. Rough transition is a nicer name. The marriages destroyed weren't all that good. It does sound like they were listening to the MLCer.
But say some, or even, most marriages weren't that good. They were good enough until MLC come knocking on the door.
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Yes Anjae, I agree ethical approval may be difficult but there must have been studies related to the introduction of HRT. It’s how to package it for males to get a base line for somewhere to start. I did a survey on surveymonkey on the dark triad of personality disorders and infidelity. It took me over 6 months and many tweeks to get it past ethical approval and there was some significance to the results.
Many Mlcers exhibit the dark triad personality, narcissism,histrionic and psychopathy. I was focusing on designing a security protocol to give advanced warning of dark triad ( predatory) characteristics in members to potential daters on dating sites.
My moneys on fluctuating hormones causing chemical imbalance in people with weak self-esteem and poor coping methods to make the perfect storm for MLC. Foo issues may just be a regression during this storm to past events and coping strategies. Liminality could be when hormones are at the tipping point of settling down and the awakening occurs when the chemicals start to ebb away and the person starts to think like they used to.
If they come back half baked and yo-yo back and fore it’s because their still pumped up with hormones and can’t think straight. A lot like their on drugs. They don’t care for anyone but them selves, shun former commitments, upset everyone,steal to get their next fix and can’t be trusted.
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Wouldn't the low self esteem come from the hormonal situation and/pr? As for poor coping mechanisms that doesn't apply to many real life MLCers I know. On the other hand, there is no shortage of people with poor coping mechanisms that never have a MLC.
Bren question remains answared. We don't know why MLC is not recognised by the health/medical community and in society. Yet, everyone on HS is living, or lived, with its consequences. Therefore something exists. We didn't all imagine it.
I would say MLC is more bipolar/borderline than histrionic. However, MLCers, unless it was already present, do no have a personality disorder. It was not there before and it gone after MLC.
Hormones are chemicals. It they are unbalanced there is already chemical imbalance. If there are FOO issues at play most MCLers are not aware of it and certainly not during the deepth of the crisis.
Hormones at the tipping point of settling down bringing Liminality. Could be. But we don't know. And Liminality does not equal end of distress. It still exists in Rebirth.
I would bet on adrenaline and cortisol playing a large part in the mess for High Energy MLCers. Wallowers seem to lack adrenaline.
If the matter is hormonal, then it can be solved and there is no need for everyone to be going through this.
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Low self esteem might get worse or increase with hormone fluctuations but If it’s low it could add to their depression. There’s a resounding narcissistic theme of superiority in their actions when they completely bulldoze others without a backwards glance. Bipolar hyper sexuality could be in some but I bet there’s comorbidity running through the entire issue of MLC with other personality types. Borderlines are in general very loving but with a go away don’t leave me theme which could be boomeranging also they demonstrate histrionic behaviours and fantasise about their tru wuv.
They act out of character and their behaviour impacts others drastically in many cases, I would think this could be viewed as a disorder and could have been suppressed in the psyche or just symptomatic of their current mental health. Their disconnect and vanishing from a previously stable relationship could be viewed as psychotic. In short there are many explanations surrounding MLC which is why it hasn’t been acknowledged by the academics and so cannot be categorised.
All that we know for sure is they weren’t like this when we met them and their behaviours are out of character and socially unacceptable. I don’t think it’s down to alien interventions but I do think fluctuating hormones are major player with a vast majority of people in midlife and is a likely cause of some transitions that turn into crises.
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All that we know for sure is they weren’t like this when we met them and their behaviours are out of character and socially unacceptable. I don’t think it’s down to alien interventions but I do think fluctuating hormones are major player with a vast majority of people in midlife and is a likely cause of some transitions that turn into crises.
They definitely weren't like this before BD...and their symptoms do worsen after BD.
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Hi Brenross, I agree totally. In my opinion it has to be chemically induced behaviour change that makes them different probably related to the limbic system and hormone surges. It could be that hi ranking people do know the cause of MLC but it’s ethically unacceptable for them to try to replicate it on subjects and make in theory a Frankenstein Criser to prove their point ( I’m relieved about this).
Years ago great progress was made quickly at the expense of suffering subjects so ethics and morality has controlled for this thankfully. I am sure in the coming decades neural scanning and DNA will give the answers to your question so just hang in there while Big Pharma gears up to earn mega bucks out of MLC and miraculously it will become recognised.
Kind regards
Jack
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"I don’t think it’s down to alien interventions but I do think fluctuating hormones are major player with a vast majority of people in midlife and is a likely cause of some transitions that turn into crises."
I couldn't agree with you more, Jack. ;)
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Hi Thunder, I’m pleased you think along the same lines, the alien thing was just humour. It will be come apparent in the decades to come and you can bet Big Pharma have their sights on it. They had the cure for diabetes years ago and only in the last couple of years they say they found a solution to it.I found the original study while researching in Harvard University archives. I tried to access the same report two years later and it disappeared. Three years later I read a cure for diabetes was being developed through Harvard University studies, go figure.
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Thanks for sharing your insight Jackolar, it is greatly appreciated and very informative. Please don't become a stranger again....we can all learn so much for you and your studies and theories.
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The 'dark triad' you mention is definitely something we see innM!C spouses isn't it? That potent combo of narcissism, chaos and an astonishing lack of empathy. I guess some of us might decide, with the gift of hindsight, that these are exaggerated versions of previous characteristic that operated in a more 'normal' range. For some of us, it really is the opposite of the person we knew for years.
I would imagine that an algorithm could pick up language and behaviour marker flags. Interesting project. ( I wonder what a site would do with the data though and how it would justify using it?) A bit like reading posts here and seeing the same words and reactions and script-like behaviours.
I'm sure you are right that if Big Pharma could nail it down enough to come up with a product, it will. There is a lot of money to be made from MLCers...well, in addition to hotels, lawyers, tattoo parlours and car sales...actually quite a few LBS would probably pay a few bob to have something they could slip into a cup of tea for their spouse early on :)
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Your welcome Brenross I’ve been busy on other boards and answering questions on a site beginning in “Q”, I’m not sure if I can mention it on here as I’m rusty. I’ve struggled with the death of my eldest son and declining health and that has taken most of my energies in recent years. I will contribute if I have something I think could help someone of course. Thank you for your support. I’m 8 years in and no contact since BD.
Kind regards
Jack
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So far, Big Pharma has no cure to diabetes. At least not here. They have a way to control it = meds. Different than cure. Big Pharma pretty much never has the cure to anything. Cure means not making tons of money.
Big Pharma is not the solution for MLC. And having people as guinea pigs also isn't.
The question remains the same, even those who believe in MLC think it is different things. Some, like myself and Jack see hormones/chemicals/depression, therefore solvable. Those who see it as an identity crisis think there is nothing that can be done, aside to let MCL end.
There are too many people and business making big money out of MLC. Lawyers, clothes brands, cars brands, real estate, tattoo parlours, restaurants, hotels, travel agents, department stores, even wedding planners. They will not want to lose that income. In essence, society has no interest in solving MLC. It is more provitable to have people in MLC.
Even therapist profit from it. Be it from the LBS and/or children or the MCL once the crisis is over - or at the start, when some go see a therapist wihtout results. Just look at how many HS members and their kids are seeing a therapist.
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Hi Treasure, yes at bomb drop I would have sold my soul to find a cure for her no doubt about that. And your right about the dark triad too as we all have levels of triad traits that could be accelerated though chemical exposure. It was an extremely interesting study and I can endorse it’s worth at identifying manipulation, gaslighting, and Machiavellianism in others.
Anjae where are you from? The report I found was targeting beta cells in the pancreas and developing ways to make them more effective. The test were on non humans at that stage. Big Pharma will release it no doubt in time. Results were significant in diabetes-reversal in non humans. I agree keeping us sick makes them more money but it’s getting rampant.Search Harvard University site, I came across the original by accident when I was researching addictions and treatment plans for prison offenders.
Brenross, make sure your Mlcer stays away from injecting insulin direct to muscle before working out. Insulin’s popular over here with the Roid boys, the increase in glucose can cause all sorts of damage over time.
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Portugal. They use pills here. Or insulin for diabetes type 1. That is not say that there will not be some more advanced thing coming along.
I believe diabetes, and pretty much everything, can be cured once the right thing(s) is(are) found/implemented. What I don't believe is in Big Pharma wanting to lose tons of money. But who knows, things may change.
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Brenross, make sure your Mlcer stays away from injecting insulin direct to muscle before working out. Insulin’s popular over here with the Roid boys, the increase in glucose can cause all sorts of damage over time.
Unfortunately Jack my ExH is a Vanisher.. We are totally nc. ...off living in his fantasy world. I have had no contact with him now for over 12 months. He resides in the same regional town that we do, so we hear many stories on the grape vine. I do worry daily about him, but unfortunately we cannot help him atm.
Jack I am sorry to hear about your son. How traumatising for you, it is something you will never recover from. A parents worse nightmare. Talk about a double whammy for you. We are all here for you if and when you need support or just a ear.
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Your wife has been gone for 8 years and no contact since BD? You have a true vanisher. Have you ever posted to the vanishers thread? https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=10504.70 - Anyone else have a vanisher? 20
It would be interesting to hear your story in more detail and how it is to have a MLCer who has been gone for so long and no contact.
I'm so sorry for the loss of your son.
You can certainly help others around here.
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I'm so sorry to hear of the loss of your son, J. Do you mean to say that even with the death of your child, you still didn't hear from your MLCer? My gosh, that's horrible! My heart goes out to you.
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I am so sorry for the loss of your son, Jack, and the struggles you've had to face.
I know we all know that active MLCers in our face create huge strain and chaos, but there is a brutality to being 'un-existed' by a vanisher which is quite a WTF primal wound for those of us who experience it.
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Oh man Jack, I'm so sorry to hear that. Of course that took your time and energy.
I'm just glad you're here now. I like your viewpoints and you present them well.
I just wanted to add, about hormones, I actually witnessed my H have hot flashes during his crisis. I don't know if anyone believed me.
I didn't think it happened to men but I guess sometimes it does.
He would be sitting on the couch just watching a show and all of a sudden his face would get red and he would get sweaty. He'd say how hot it was in the house and turn down the heat.
I never said anything but the heat was fine, but I knew from female friends of mine who had them, what a hot flash does to you.
He started wearing short pants to work, even in the winter. He was always hot.
So I believe hormones, or lack of, can actually effect them in a negative way. Estrogen and Testosterone can effect our physical well being along with moods and emotions.
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Oops, I see a new thread needs to be started. :)
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Follow us for Thread 2. https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=10562.0