Midlife Crisis: Support for Left Behind Spouses
Archives => Archived Topics => Topic started by: OldPilot on June 06, 2012, 11:28:44 AM
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There has been some talk around that women MLC'ers never come out of MLC.
I was rummaging around on the DB board and came up with this post from a woman that went through her own MLC.
I think something else that should be pointed out is an MLCer MIGHT also pretty much stop talking to whomever they were closest to. They may get a whole new circle of friends. Or they might push everyone away.
I stopped talking to my sister, who has always been my best friend. But by the time that happened, I'd pushed my husband so far away he couldn't have known that was happening. We lived apart and I'd been out of touch with him for a long time except regarding the house or kids. There was ZERO communication with him unless I HAD to and I would go to great lengths to avoid that. I didn't like the man. I know now that what I really didn't like were the things he made me see about myself. We could have none of THAT! I should also note that when I stopped talking to my sister was when things were beginning to change INSIDE of me. I was getting the first inkling that my story (my rewriting of the marital history) wasn't going to hold water much longer. The cracks were starting to appear. That's when I stopped talking to EVERYBODY.
In my case, through the initial period of deep MLC which manifested outwardly between March '02 & March '04, I'd spun such brilliant BS that everyone thought I was right to want a separation/divorce. In March '04, my husband left for the second time. I'd gotten rid of om before that but was still trying to live it up. I was crashing hard and fairly regularly. I still managed for another year to outrun reality though it did creep in occasionally. My husband stopped fighting for me when he left the second time. That was the biggest jolt. It was good to have that pressure off for awhile though. By summer 2005, I was coming apart at the seams. Completely. I'd exhausted myself with the things of the world that had enticed me, I was looking at families and missing my own. For the first time, I started to see that there had been good times. I had REALLY forgotten them. There are still times as recently as a week ago that I'll remember something and mention it to my husband and he'll look at me as if to say "did you JUST remember/realize that?" and if I were to answer, I'd say yes. MLC stole a big chunk of the good things about my marriage. It seems I get them back a little at a time. But I FORGOT. I did not see us as my husband saw us.
So you (husbands of MLC wives) really are holding something precious that no one else has; you're holding the real truth about your lives together. You're the only one that's going to understand her when she comes back. You're all that's going to be familiar and if you're not there...
Anyway after a while, I started seeing how I had contributed to the bad times. By October 2005 I was completely broken and flat on my face in repentance. Thinking of it still makes me cry.
I was a mean MLCer.
I convinced myself and everyone around me that my husband was the biggest SOB that ever walked. I BELIEVED it. I twisted every argument we'd ever had but ESPECIALLY as he fought me THEN.
I had all my family in support of my efforts.
Eventually, and it took a long time, I convinced my husband we were really through.
He stood for over 2 years, though.
Alone.
Without a message board or a clue about MLC.
He just believed in me and in us.
It seemed when in order to save his own sanity he had to let go I started waking up.
You might think that's a shame.
But the rest of my story is still being written.
I don't know why I wrote all that.
There are some new people here I guess.
Trying to determine if there's hope.
Thinking there is hope if it's MLC.
To you I'll say this: If you don't humble yourself at this time, if you let pride make you bitter and vengeful, she will never feel able to ask your forgiveness. And THAT ALONE IS PARAMOUNT to her coming out of MLC a better and stronger person.
You see, the hardest thing for her will be forgiving herself and she can never do that unless she can come back and talk with you.
Love her or not, leave her or not, you've got to make yourself a person (because you are THE person) she can come to and apologize. This is when you're going to have your feet held to fire and you'll find out if your love is really unconditional.
While she's lost, you have work of your own to do.
This isn't just her journey.
You're also here for a reason.
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=984732&page=1
You might notice a purple poster on this thread that we all have known to love ((((HUGS))))) :) :) :)
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OP,
Thank you for posting this.
It brought some tears to my eyes (I haven't cried for quite some time).
Hugs,
L
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Indeed, I am emotional for both of them! I can't imagine trying to go it alone as an LBS. This board alone has been my lifeline.
And I can attest that my brain now, even with LBS cycling, is a much healthier, slower paced, and friendly place to keep my thoughts compared to during what I believe was my own crisis. So much energy was directed toward hate and distancing myself from everyone around me! I really don't know how I functioned at all, but it all changed very quickly when I bottomed out.
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That really was good to read. And I so take her point about the LBS needing to be someone they can come to talk to.
Oh, how we have to balance that with the truth darts! But she's absolutely right that being bitter and vengeful will get us absolutely nowhere, on any front.
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So you (husbands of MLC wives) really are holding something precious that no one else has; you're holding the real truth about your lives together
except that we start to rewrite history too.
Thanks OP for posting this!
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except that we start to rewrite history too.
I'm not so sure about this. As a LBS, I don't think that we re-write the past; rather, I think that we start to view the truth of the past in view of the truth at the present. While this may affect our perspective of the past, it is not being re-written. That's entirely different than what the MLCr does which is to twist and distort the past to fit their current needs. Much different.
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Thank you, OP, for posting this. It gives me so much hope to read what MLCers think once they make it out of the MLC Tunnel.
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Thanks OP. I needed to hear this.
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Thank you for the thread link and I plan to read it through when I have time. That Cadet guy on DB is a jerk though. Lol!!!
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I really am glad that was posted. Just last night I was wondering if it was normal for complete isolation like my H is doing and today I see this story that describes what he is doing currently. I am thankful that this was posted up here and I totally agree that making yourself a person they can talk to is worth it. Two weeks ago I made a conscious decision to cut out the anger that seemed to permeate my home and that started me towards my current place right now. Thank you for posting that, I needed to have an answer to my question last night and there it was.
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As a LBS, I don't think that we re-write the past; rather, I think that we start to view the truth of the past in view of the truth at the present. While this may affect our perspective of the past, it is not being re-written.
At least this is my experience as LBS. Prior to BD, I was happy with my married life (as is/as it was delivered to me, as I had got used to). Immediately after BD, I was not sure what was happening. Later on though I did begin analyzing our (my MLC W and myself) life since we got married and did analyze it in the context of current MLC crisis. The change for me is while I was ok with (and content with) what I had pre-BD, I am NOT at all willling to go there NOW. So yes, the perspective is different however it is not being re-written.
If better life is not going to come out of it, no point in wasting additional valuable time in R. R is next to impossible, as knowing my W, even from pre-BD/MLC days, I don't think she is capable of overcoming the guilt and destruction that she has caused and much more destruction that she is trying to cause ...with all 6 cylinders fired up!.
Dr. NO
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Feel ashamed of myself after reading this piece.
My pride does quite often have me feeling bitter and vengeful.
I can suddenly see a bit clearer after reading this.
They must be in such a messed up state.
I should know better than to take this attitude.
Thanks for posting this.
SYBG x
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except that we start to rewrite history too.
I'm not so sure about this. As a LBS, I don't think that we re-write the past; rather, I think that we start to view the truth of the past in view of the truth at the present. While this may affect our perspective of the past, it is not being re-written. That's entirely different than what the MLCr does which is to twist and distort the past to fit their current needs. Much different.
I'm not sure what the truth of the past versus the truth of the present means. You might be saying something similar to what RCR is saying below, I can't tell for certain. But I think some LBS may do some history rewriting of their own.
From RCR's article Your Self and Your Spouse
Like your spouse, you may be rewriting history in light of your present circumstances, forgetting or dismissing their strengths and what it was that attracted you. You did not marry the MLC Monster; you would not have married the MLC Monster. So who did you marry?
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To you I'll say this: If you don't humble yourself at this time, if you let pride make you bitter and vengeful, she will never feel able to ask your forgiveness. And THAT ALONE IS PARAMOUNT to her coming out of MLC a better and stronger person.
You see, the hardest thing for her will be forgiving herself and she can never do that unless she can come back and talk with you.
Love her or not, leave her or not, you've got to make yourself a person (because you are THE person) she can come to and apologize. This is when you're going to have your feet held to fire and you'll find out if your love is really unconditional.
The part of the quote above stood out to me a bit. In the weeks after bomb drop, I was searching for answers. I found other websites and other boards. I understood the hurt, I was feeling it myself. I struggled with some of the bitterness I read.
RCR has excellent articles on the Unconditionals. RCR's blog "Bitter or Better" is linked below.
http://loveanyway.theherosspouse.com/?p=440
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except that we start to rewrite history too.
I'm not so sure about this. As a LBS, I don't think that we re-write the past; rather, I think that we start to view the truth of the past in view of the truth at the present. While this may affect our perspective of the past, it is not being re-written. That's entirely different than what the MLCr does which is to twist and distort the past to fit their current needs. Much different.
I agree with Doc. It is totally different. And, with time, I think we, LBS, will come to a much more similar view of the relationship/marriage as the one we've had before BD/MLC.
“To you I'll say this: If you don't humble yourself at this time, if you let pride make you bitter and vengeful, she will never feel able to ask your forgiveness. And THAT ALONE IS PARAMOUNT to her coming out of MLC a better and stronger person.
You see, the hardest thing for her will be forgiving herself and she can never do that unless she can come back and talk with you.
Love her or not, leave her or not, you've got to make yourself a person (because you are THE person) she can come to and apologize. This is when you're going to have your feet held to fire and you'll find out if your love is really unconditional.”
Also totally agree with this. Just not so sure if we all will be wanting for our MLCers in the end…
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Thanks OP for posting this.
I agree with AnneJ, I am not rewriting history. I am seeing my past with my ex, and putting it in context.
I do have to release my anger though. These past couple of weeks, I have been bitter and vengeful. I didn't hold back with what I felt about the entire situation. I felt self righteous and I certainly did not promote myself as someone she can come back and apologize to.
It's been 18 months, and absolutely no change in my MLCer, I don't see her moving along at all....
As in the post, it took her three years.... Half way through maybe? No guarantees, I know.
As AnneJ wrote, do I want to R? I really can't tell. Either way, I do want her to come out of this though. At least then she can remember some of the good times we had. In the beginning, she seriously did not remember many things, even though she tried.
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This far into MLC, I am having trouble not rewriting history. I KNOW we had a very good marriage, not perfect but very good, we had a great relationship, he was a really good dad. Yet this far in sometimes it feels like it was all bad, always bad, he was never anything except how he is now. Sometimes I have to really try to remember the good years, which were many, before MLC and not let the MLC distort those.
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I did not marry MLC woman. I would not have married MLC woman. So who did I marry?
I married someone who was mild mannered (proxy for low -self esteem? this is the analysis/perpsective post BD), over caring (proxy for avoidant personality? again analysis/analysis/paralysis post -BD), humorous (proxy for....). My point being in psycholgocal jargon we can make believe anything we like (Adler was alway right and so was Freud.. after the fact, that is).
In layperson's language, I married a decent person, with some good qualities and some qualites that could be annoying (depending on person's viewpoint). Well, She married (myself) someone who had some good qualities and other annoying qualities. It worked fine for 17 years and Boom! One fine day in August 2011, she dropped bomb and began rewriting history. That is all I know.
One day, I will pick up the pieces and then maybe, start writing history. Will it be re-written history? Who knows? Right now I am in LBS addiction and can't seem to come out of it. Someone pinch me... please.
Dr. NO
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I'm also not sure about the literally re-writing history on either side :-\
At first, I believed what my W was saying was re-writing our history, but with time I don't think it was that per se; like Dr No I've done a lot of analysing too! It seems to me that it was/is an inability to see or recognise her part in the life we'd built and the choices she'd and we'd made and that nobody forced things on us, nobody deliberately made people move away, nobody died to make us feel bad on purpose, it was all just, well, life. But she couldn't and wouldn't see that. She also couldn't or wouldn't see that I was the same person I always was and that if she thought I truly was 'The One' back in 1990, then she'd made a huge mistake, because suddenly I was of no use to her on any level; the OM was now "the answer".
Like hobo1, I'm putting my life with W in context. I've been guilty at times of believing my own rhetoric when talking to others, and, yes, I've been bitter and vengeful too, but I rarely feel like that now. As for R, that is very, very unlikely to happen and to be honest, as of right now, I don't want it.
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Thanks OP for posting that. In all the confusion of the situation, the one abiding thing is a belief that my h is worth all this trouble.
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I think it isn't re-writing history at all but since one of our first steps as LBSers is to take care of ourselves and heal one can't help but to evaluate the marriage. I have been reading the book conflict free living and in doing so I found that my pride during my marriage was causing strife in our marriage, it was humbling to say the least when I realized that our marital conflicts weren't all his fault and my pride of being stoic and the "normal" one in the relationship isn't something that I want to grow out of control. My H is hurting, I can't help him but I can make sure that when he comes home I have fixed my own issues and the worst thing about this is discovering that I have some (just kidding), but I have been evaluating myself alot lately and quite frankly I want to be all that I can be, not for him but so that I can be a happier person and be healthy. I pray that he comes home but mostly I pray that he is healing, okay and can open his eyes to God's love. I do feel peace now heck haven't been anxious for at least 4 days in a row ....lol. This post helped me see the other side more than any other post and helped me to understand him that much more and the why of things. Right now I am trying to become more humble, which is pretty darn hard when you are perfect........(another joke). Thanks for this forum and God Bless.
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It seems to me that it was/is an inability to see or recognise her part in the life we'd built and the choices she'd and we'd made and that nobody forced things on us, nobody deliberately made people move away, nobody died to make us feel bad on purpose, it was all just, well, life.
Well, yes. What you describe seems to be a lack of coping skills. Lack of coping skills are brought to the forefront by MLC.
But she couldn't and wouldn't see that.
This is caused by the MLC. Here's something from RCR.
And what MLCer is going to do that? Conscious decision making is not part of MLC—if they make conscientious decisions it’s not MLC. If they choose to not avoid; it’s not MLC.
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The conscientious decision part is what I struggle with as my W does seem to be thinking things through before she makes decisions. She may well be in denial about how her actions are hurting and continue to hurt the kids and yes she never seems to understand why S7 doesn't want to stay with her. But, she seems to be following the path of someone who is recovering from a bad relationship and moving on with their lives. Our contact has gradually become less and less over the past few months and she appears to be working toward a "clean break" just like most divorcing spouses do. I often think I'm the one who is not getting it and is in denial (bet I'm not the only one here guilty of that!) and begin to tell myself that I should also begin acting like any regular divorcing spouse. I'm not so sure some flaws are correctable anyway and perhaps if she never gets to be okay with those of mine that she put up with for 21 years then what is the point anyway? I know I'm rambling but I'm running on dealing with too much caffeine when I should be sleeping. LOL
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I really liked this article and thank OP for putting it here for us to read.
I don't think any LBS can even contemplate truly what this lady was asking for during replay of their spouse. It's impossible, unless we too were dead inside or hopelessly selfish people. How many times have you been told that's exactly what you are ! But we are NOT and that is why our H's and W's married us.
I also liked the the quote from arp1. about lack of coping skills. My H believes he never gets cut a break in life because bad things seem to always happen to HIM. I hope one day he'll get that the little white picket fence and the imagery of "the Waltons family" is what it is a fantasy where real life doesn't happen. He may even get to the point where he associates his lack of coping skills through MLC with the past 21 or even 44 years.
Conscious decisions - hmm.. well taking a decision and acting on it may be "normal", taking certain decisions out of not being able to cope any other way, thereby not adding logic etc to the mix, changing your mind about those decisions on a daily/hourly basis. That's definitely MLC.
Putting pride, anger, vengence out of the way in order to create an environment of safety. Well each and every one of us wants to hear heartfelt sorries from our spouses and we deserve to hear them, no matter what happens to the R. Self fulfilling prophecy if you believe you're never going to get it and create an environment where it can't be said to you. IMHO.
Not being niave, it takes a very long time to get this bit !
SD x
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I am taking the time to read AmyC's thread and posts that seem helpful.
Since there are over 12,000 of them it might take a while but I will post them if I think they might help.
This one may be more difficult to read as it was in a quote box with black and red type as two different people.
Amy is Red
Dadnotquitting in Black
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Main=30304&Number=1080560#Post1080560
"Amy,
So you went through this yourself?
Yes.
What I'm wondering, is how cognitive is an MLCer to what they are experiencing?
Not much. It is mass confusion, fueled by anger that runs so deep it never seems to be far away. The term "hairpin trigger" comes to mind... MLCers can be vicious on a good day. Anger is the root, confusion is what we will never in hell admit to, exhaustion is what eventually derails us and we find ourselves looking back at the destruction caused by our own hand.
It is almost impossible for me to comprehend that they don't see any of it, none at all?
See what exactly? We know we're b*tches from hell but what we DON'T fully comprehend is WHY. It takes a long time for that to begin to come clear. MLC is rooted in unresolved issues, aging and thinking about possible things we might have missed out on, thoughts of 'what I might be able to do if I left this bullsh*t behind...after all, I'm only getting older'... it is rooted in the mundane things we do everyday and no one notices anymore. We might have woken up and realized we have no identity other than "wife and mother" and everything inside us starts screaming PAY ATTENTION TO ME. You most likely don't see much of that internal stuff until it overflows in the form of anger that has you looking at us like our heads just spun around on our shoulders because you asked if, while we're out, we can pick you up something at the store (or something equally stupid). So there it is. The anger and confusion that has festered is now fullblown MLC and you're about to start sleeping with one eye open for however long you stay under the same roof.
When my wife spews her rage, vitriol and makes horrible comments to me (I wish you were dead. Then my problems would be over) she just HAS to know what she is saying is so wrong, you just don't say that to anyone.
Agreed. That is excessively hateful. But I will admit to you that although I never said it, God forgive me, I THOUGHT things like that when I was in MLC. And I KNOW that even having not said the words outloud, my EVERY action conveyed that thought to my husband regularly.
Also, if MLC really started long before I saw the signs, is there any way to determine that?
I know what you're doing. You want to construct a timeline to give yourself some reasonable idea as to how far she is into this thing. PLEASE do yourself a favor, SCREW THE TIMELINE IDEA.
I know that two years ago, I got the first "I need some space to sort this out" line, and that was six months after he mother passed away. Then, a month or two later she had her fling, big shopping sprees, her own illnesses (major migraines, seizures, hospitalized three times). It was a rocky road for us since then until the bomb on Christmas Eve '06. Did her MLC timeline begin two years ago?
My wife was all those things you describe; appeared happy (as much as she could be), great mother, pretty good wife, co-existing and working towards common goals. Is the death of her mother (a wound not yet healed) the "something" that happened?
It could definitely be the trigger that got her looking at her life and realizing her dissatisfaction, which by the way, has ALWAYS been a part of her so don't let yourself think it's your fault.
Did our not-always-so-great relationship between then and "I need some space" act as a trigger, the "thing in her mind"?
Again, mom's death probably kicked off the mental aspect. Until the day she had that talk with you though, it was an internal thing only, I suspect. But in that time, her mind worked her over. By the time she voiced those things to you, she was in MLC, if that is indeed the conclusion you have rightfully come to.
And she doesn't think she is happy, she KNOWS.
So did I.
At least that is what she is telling me and the kids (and anyone else that will listen). She tells me she hates me (that hurts bad) and does believe our marriage has held her back not only from happiness, but of finding her "soul mate" (oh puke).
And nothing, nothing at all can reach her? Amy, did you have family and friends (not H) pulling you aside for any reality checks?
I had every single person absolutely convinced that I knew what I was doing. I had so deluded myself, that everyone else fell right into line supporting me.
Did they see what was going on, and now in retrospect, accuratley lay it out in front of you as to what you were doing and how you were acting? No one had a clue. Only since coming out of MLC and WALKING BACK have I told the story in it's entirety to my family. My mother, grandmother, aunt, sister...they ALL know what MLC is now. But they never knew I was so screwed up.
Did they tell you that you have your head up your a** and you're the only one that can't see how silly this is? And if so, it meant nothing to you?
I can tell you beyond the shadow of a doubt that there was NOTHING ANYONE could have said to me that would have moved me. As an example, right smack dab in the middle of my MLC, while practicing adultery, I sat my self-righteous butt in church and my Pastor pointed his finger straight at me one day during an altar call and he said to me "how long are you going to sit there?" He had been talking about letting the enemy influence us and destroy our families from within. At the time this happened, not one soul knew I was having an affair. Not one soul. I got called out, IN CHURCH, by a man that I had so much respect for, KNEW God had sent into my life the year before, and yet when he stood there that day, I didn't move a muscle. That is very telling of the grip the enemy had on me and I didn't even realize it. It is interesting to me that I basically lost my mind within a year of darkening the doorway of a church for the first time ever in my whole life. I got involved there, having felt "led" to that teacher for some reason.... 6 years later I know why. It's because every tool he gave me during that first year, I have had to use mightily in order to be able to stand for my marriage.
What happened the day you decided to "work it out on your own"?
Oh sweetheart, I didn't "decide" to work it out on my own.
Was it gradual, or just a sudden slap in the face, an epiphany?
It was gradual and yet very dramatic. I had begun to work at a law firm where one of the attorneys represented children often involved in nasty custody battles and the other attorney practiced mostly bankruptcy law. Between the kids, which tore me apart, and one particular couple that was filing for bankruptcy and yet exhibited SUCH AMAZING DEVOTION to one another, my eyes began to open to the state of my own family. Another HUGE thing that occured was I ended up one day on the scene of a motorcycle accident in which the man laid in the ditch and died with me sitting there beside him. There were other very significant things that occured over a period of months but when I fully awoke, it put me literally on my face in devastation. I could not endure the pain of the realization of what I had done, the role I had played in the destruction of my family. I could not hardly breathe having the knowledge of what I'd done to a man that had loved me, not perfectly, but so utterly completely. Coming OUT of MLC would have surely been the death of me had it not been for the grace of God. The guilt, shame and horror were SOOOOO oppressive...
If you have a link to any of this (I can't find it) can you please copy it here so I can read up?
Surely I have at least 25 threads or so by now. I started the first one in October 2005. I will see what I can find.
What did your husband do during all this?
Bless his heart, for 2 years he stood and fought like hell to save us. It was not until he let go, that I started my painfully slow journey back. Interestingly, I signed separation papers last October and moved out of our home in December. Since then, we have become closer than ever and had several very significant breakthroughs. The latest one was just tonight.
Lots of questions from me here, but the more I read about all this, the more it scares me and braces me for the hellish pain I may have to endure.
Don't be afraid. Find out rightquick what you believe in and why you choose to stand. You're going to have to remind yourself of that alot in the months to come.
God bless."
Edited by OldPilot for carriage returns and bold and readability 6/9/2012
This was originally posted on 6/3/2007
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Thank you for posting that and it is nice to have a candid Q&A especially for us newbies.
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Thank you for posting this. I have been doing a lot of soul searching lately, and have been coming to the realization that I need to be someone that BF will feel safe and comfortable coming home to. If I continue to harbor anger, we will never be any closer to reconciliation. In actuality I am not angry at him. I am angry at the choices he made, but what happened has happened. I can't change it. But I can change my attitudes about the situation. Ultimately I want him back in my life. Don't get me wrong....there is a lot of work he would have to do. But I can and will meet him in a common place where we can both rebuild our relationship is that is what is meant to be. I know there are two sides to every story, and I can only know my side with certainty. Hopefully one day BF will be able to share his side as well.
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That is so moving; thank you for posting it, OP. I know it's a woman writing and therefore a bit different than what men go through (yes, I do think there is some kind of difference), but on the whole it is so applicable to the whole mess.
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And DNQ--Dadnotquitting was a tough case--he was so stubborn and most of us felt like we were beating out heads against a brick wall when dealing with him.
He insisted on dating and wanted to keep throwing money at the situation to solve it--he was well-off financially. He even sent me an email that asked about counseling with MWD herself--he wanted to fly his wife out for the few day sessions for couples--couple and her, not grou--she offered. The cost: several thousand dollars--maybe upt to 10K.
Everything from him was a out his desperation and solving it NOW.
AmyC was a great resource. You may also see the occasional posts by Happy_Again--and he had a few identities later like Happy Incognito or something. He was another MLCer. His first name was Finally_Free and he changed it--he reconciled with his wife. Happy posted a lot when he first arrived--he was in MLC and came to Monster at us! But he was near the end--perhaps HB's Acceptance where the MLCer returns to the stages to shut the door on them--because I think it was only 6 months after his arrival when he moved home. But he gor bombarded with so many request for insight and advice that it was overwhelming--something like 3 threads in a matter of days when he started a thread for people to come and ask him questions.
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Thank you SO much for posting that. Not just a window, but the fourth wall removed!
If I continue to harbor anger, we will never be any closer to reconciliation.
I think sometimes it's easy to feel like ultimately in order to get through this we must repress our feelings of anger forever and just move on, which just isn't the case. It's all about finding the right *time* to deal with it all. And in the midst of their crisis, we're not going to get the release and closure on our own emotions we need - they're not capable of hearing us. If we can delay, we'll have our day, and it will be with the person who can not only hear, but heal with us.
What she said about coming out both gradually and suddenly I can see. My H leaving was my bottoming out in my own crisis, and my life has been different from that day. But I remember after BD#2 there being a calm that came over me that I can only feel was my awakening, and it was like someone breaking an egg over my head that initally was a shock, but took more effect as it dripped down over time. Within a week my 92 year old neighbor had a life-threatening accident, and I was the first on the scene. Seeing him like that and being the one that needed to get emergency care for him put life in perspective. More and more I see that God puts that in the paths of many MLC'ers. I don't think that's coincidence.
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Thanks OP. This was very revealing and useful. Please post more. Dr. NO
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Thank you for posting this. I have been doing a lot of soul searching lately, and have been coming to the realization that I need to be someone that BF will feel safe and comfortable coming home to. If I continue to harbor anger, we will never be any closer to reconciliation. In actuality I am not angry at him. I am angry at the choices he made, but what happened has happened. I can't change it. But I can change my attitudes about the situation. Ultimately I want him back in my life. Don't get me wrong....there is a lot of work he would have to do. But I can and will meet him in a common place where we can both rebuild our relationship is that is what is meant to be. I know there are two sides to every story, and I can only know my side with certainty. Hopefully one day BF will be able to share his side as well.
I have been thinking along the same lines. For me I have turned more to the Lord, don't know if that is your thing or not but it has helped me. I have also been reading a great book Conflict Free Living and it has exercises in it that you can reflect and apply to your situation. In doing those exercises I realized my part in our marriage and I am a bit more humble. I don't own his behavior but I am talking about my own and that I can change. I also have read co-dependency no more and it helped to open my eyes too. With all that basically choose your path that suites your lifestyle and you will feel it is right. I am trying to be more than I am, but true to myself because we were living a stagnant existence and one thing I do know is without this I would have been content, not truly happy, but content. Now I am learning what would make me happy and it wasn't the life we were living.....lol. Of course I was also dealing with him and his issues and ignoring myself.
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I would like to thank you as well for posting this Old Pilot. This posting is one of the better I've seen in regard to what I experienced with my female MLCer. This is good stuff. I made a few comments below based on what I have experienced with my MLCer, and some of the things that RCR and/or Conway wrote that I found to be excellent insight.
What I'm wondering, is how cognitive is an MLCer to what they are experiencing?
Not much. It is mass confusion, fueled by anger that runs so deep it never seems to be far away. The term "hairpin trigger" comes to mind... MLCers can be vicious on a good day. Anger is the root, confusion is what we will never in hell admit to, exhaustion is what eventually derails us and we find ourselves looking back at the destruction caused by our own hand.
From RCR's Midlife Crisis Overview article
Midlifers are not always aware of their actions. There is an awareness within each moment, but a global absence of awareness; this only becomes clear later. Driven by emotions, Midlifers are moment and self focused and often unable to link consequences and understand the relation of their behaviour to the external world. Their memory becomes fuzzy; though they may be aware of their actions during each present moment, in clarity they may not recall what takes place during fog and vice versa.
Large chunks of time are holistically blank. There may be a memory of certain events within those chunks, but the external relation to the world is lost. Events are not linked solidly to other things and thus may have no chronological placement. Time is a tangled string that rather than linear.
It is almost impossible for me to comprehend that they don't see any of it, none at all?
See what exactly? We know we're b*tches from hell but what we DON'T fully comprehend is WHY. It takes a long time for that to begin to come clear. MLC is rooted in unresolved issues, aging and thinking about possible things we might have missed out on, thoughts of 'what I might be able to do if I left this bullsh*t behind...after all, I'm only getting older'... it is rooted in the mundane things we do everyday and no one notices anymore. We might have woken up and realized we have no identity other than "wife and mother" and everything inside us starts screaming PAY ATTENTION TO ME. You most likely don't see much of that internal stuff until it overflows in the form of anger that has you looking at us like our heads just spun around on our shoulders because you asked if, while we're out, we can pick you up something at the store (or something equally stupid). So there it is. The anger and confusion that has festered is now fullblown MLC and you're about to start sleeping with one eye open for however long you stay under the same roof.
I think this is an excellent description of the unresolved issues and identity crisis that is MLC. Also the anger and even some paranoia that MLCers can experience. I believe what the MLCer wrote above is very consistent with what RCR and Conway wrote.
When my wife spews her rage, vitriol and makes horrible comments to me (I wish you were dead. Then my problems would be over) she just HAS to know what she is saying is so wrong, you just don't say that to anyone.
Agreed. That is excessively hateful. But I will admit to you that although I never said it, God forgive me, I THOUGHT things like that when I was in MLC. And I KNOW that even having not said the words outloud, my EVERY action conveyed that thought to my husband regularly.
This made me recall something my MLCer said that I hadn't thought about in a long time. Right around the time of bomb drop, my MLCer and I met with our pastor and his wife. The thing my MLCer said to our pastor that stunned me the most was "I have wished either I or DGU would die in a car accident or something". I don't think any of us realized the depression that was behind that statement. On top of that, my MLCer used the word "hopeless" quite often in the days and weeks after bomb drop.
One family friend contacted me and said she could tell from my MLCers posts on facebook that depression had set in. By that time, I had met with a counselor that I personally know and he told me that he thought it was midlife crisis.
Also, if MLC really started long before I saw the signs, is there any way to determine that?
I know what you're doing. You want to construct a timeline to give yourself some reasonable idea as to how far she is into this thing. PLEASE do yourself a favor, SCREW THE TIMELINE IDEA.
I think there is some wisdom behind this recommendation. I think there is validity in what we know about the time frame, but many LBS expect (or maybe hope) their MLCers is on the short side of the time frame reference.
I know that two years ago, I got the first "I need some space to sort this out" line, and that was six months after he mother passed away. Then, a month or two later she had her fling, big shopping sprees, her own illnesses (major migraines, seizures, hospitalized three times). It was a rocky road for us since then until the bomb on Christmas Eve '06. Did her MLC timeline begin two years ago?
My MLCer also told me at one time she needed space. Then she continued her Boomerang behavior.
My wife was all those things you describe; appeared happy (as much as she could be), great mother, pretty good wife, co-existing and working towards common goals. Is the death of her mother (a wound not yet healed) the "something" that happened?
It could definitely be the trigger that got her looking at her life and realizing her dissatisfaction, which by the way, has ALWAYS been a part of her so don't let yourself think it's your fault.
Did our not-always-so-great relationship between then and "I need some space" act as a trigger, the "thing in her mind"?
Again, mom's death probably kicked off the mental aspect. Until the day she had that talk with you though, it was an internal thing only, I suspect. But in that time, her mind worked her over. By the time she voiced those things to you, she was in MLC, if that is indeed the conclusion you have rightfully come to.
Conway writes about how the doubt and anxiety that is MLC builds slowly beneath the surface. Death of a parent can be a common trigger.
Here is RCR's blog "What is Bomb Drop?" that describes the MLCer revealing to the LBS what they are feeling.
http://loveanyway.theherosspouse.com/?paged=52
And she doesn't think she is happy, she KNOWS.
So did I.
From RCR's article Back Forward Limbo Repeat
Now, in the darkness, he seems even more certain he hates you, more consistent. He is gone without Hope of returning. He doesn't want to return. In this place of Perpetual Darkness he knows he made the right decision. The Dark period can be very long.
At least that is what she is telling me and the kids (and anyone else that will listen). She tells me she hates me (that hurts bad) and does believe our marriage has held her back not only from happiness, but of finding her "soul mate" (oh puke).
I did not hear the words "soul mate" from my MLCer, but my friend did.
Was it gradual, or just a sudden slap in the face, an epiphany?
It was gradual and yet very dramatic. I had begun to work at a law firm where one of the attorneys represented children often involved in nasty custody battles and the other attorney practiced mostly bankruptcy law. Between the kids, which tore me apart, and one particular couple that was filing for bankruptcy and yet exhibited SUCH AMAZING DEVOTION to one another, my eyes began to open to the state of my own family. Another HUGE thing that occured was I ended up one day on the scene of a motorcycle accident in which the man laid in the ditch and died with me sitting there beside him. There were other very significant things that occured over a period of months but when I fully awoke, it put me literally on my face in devastation. I could not endure the pain of the realization of what I had done, the role I had played in the destruction of my family. I could not hardly breathe having the knowledge of what I'd done to a man that had loved me, not perfectly, but so utterly completely. Coming OUT of MLC would have surely been the death of me had it not been for the grace of God. The guilt, shame and horror were SOOOOO oppressive...
From RCR's article Touch and Goes and Reconnection
Touch-n-Goes are about testing, information fishing, putting out feelers and reassurance. The MLCer feels guilty and ashamed for causing you pain. Will you accept him, be kind and friendly even though he was not that way to you? They are testing both your forgiveness and acceptance and the integration of the two. Accepting the process of the crisis is different than accepting a person as they are now with their history of mistreatment.
From Conway's book "Women in Midlife Crisis"
"After many of the values are sorted out and realigned, there is a gradual coming-down from anxiety and a return, surprisingly enough, to life structures quite similar to the previous ones, only now more refined and effective."
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Edited by OldPilot for carriage returns and bold and readability 6/9/2012
This was originally posted on 6/3/2007
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Thanks OP for posting both of Amy's postings.
I must say they are a fascinating read into the mind of a MLCer. To be frank, it actually doesn't provide me any more hope reading them, unfortunately. Maybe I am in denial? I don't know. All I know is I am not one to want to know where my H is on his MLC journey. I don't really want to know what is rattling in his head at the current moment or when he will go deeper in the tunnel or if he is there yet. I don't want to know what motivates him at the present moment. I am living these very specific realities in my life as they manifest themselves and play themselves out in real life. I see his violent abusive temper; his obsession with firearms; his consideration of suicide; his lust after a sick and perverse young woman; his volatile hatred and contempt towards me and his chaos and confusion of our love and M. I don't have any desire to delve into his mind and try and figure out where he is on a timeline or where he will be months down the road from now or where he was a year ago. Frankly all of this scares the daylight out of me. I am sure it must for him too. I have come to the realization that even if I knew ALL of it -- the timeline, the reasons why he is doing what he is doing, or the motivations behind it, it wouldn't change a thing. He would still do everything he is doing. I couldn't stop him. If he ever makes it through this crisis and returns to me a broken and humble man, I would be ready and willing to listen. Today, no. I have no desire or use for the musings of his mind. My life is the living reality of it all. It is more than enough for me to just keep up with coping with his MLC life and making a new life for my own.
This is not to say that reading Amy's postings do not help me understand the overall picture of MLC and embrace the process. I just can't be particularly bothered with trying to narrowly focus on my H's MLC and determine what, when, why and what if.... I know I must sound harsh and unloving and I apologize to those who interpret my approach to my spouse in this manner. However, this is his crisis and no matter what I know or what I do, there is nothing I can do to change it. It's best for me to embrace where he is and try to make my life better without trying to dissect his life in the process.
SavingGrace
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Thanks OP. I still think there is a lot of chemical imbalance in the picture. There is depression and much of what AmyC rights about can be said of depression or a few other mental issues. So, medicines to calm their minds down may smooth the whole thing.
Stil, I think this is also right” MLC is rooted in unresolved issues, aging and thinking about possible things we might have missed out on, thoughts of 'what I might be able to do if I left this bullsh*t behind...after all, I'm only getting older'... it is rooted in the mundane things we do everyday and no one notices anymore. We might have woken up and realized we have no identity other than "wife and mother" and everything inside us starts screaming PAY ATTENTION TO ME.”, specially the part of thinking what they may be doing if they leave it all behind and the feeling no one pays attention to them, even if lots of people do.
The need for attention, lots and lots of attention is pretty much what happens in Replay. They get themselves into all sorts of loony things to make people notice them. Sadly, many need far more than 2 years and cause much more destruction than AmyC. But, bottom line, it is all in their head, they feel trapped, they think we don’t pay attention to them, that we don’t care for them anymore. They’re minds are altered. None of what they think is real
“Anger is the root, confusion is what we will never in hell admit to, exhaustion is what eventually derails us and we find ourselves looking back at the destruction caused by our own hand.” Agree but have to say they manage to make it last for ever and they seem to have a special ability to keep exhaustion from hitting them full blown.
Like any depressed person MLCers are not capable of hear us. Did you have tried to tell a deeply overt depression person that there is a beautiful day out there, that there is hope and lost of great things to do? If so, you know the answer. If not, the depressed person will say, I don’t want to do anything, nothing will ever change, I’m he way I am. Yet, with medicines the depressed person will change its point of view/mind.
It is still a mystery to me out they manage to last so long, given the lives they lead and the fact that they are getting older and older. I know how the whole process unfolds but I think they last to long. In his normal self my husband would have never lasted 6 months without crashing flat if he was depressed. And, if we are not there for them when they are out of the crisis I have no idea what they have gained with it all, except being older and forever regretting what they have done. Those are the things I have seen in the former MLCers I know whose LBS was not there for them. I don’t personally know any LBS who have waited for the MLCer. I’ve heart stories of people (apart the ones on this forum) who have, but those were mainly women from past decades, grandmothers of people I know, etc.
One other thing, we’re always talking about how we would not leave our spouses if they would get cancer or other serious disease. But there is a big difference, people with cancer or other diseases treat themselves. The treatment may not prevent them from die but they try it. MLCers do nothing to try to stop themselves and even run if help is offered. Essentially, it is like we are waiting for the drug addict to admit they are an addict, wants to stop being one and asks for help. Two totally different situations.
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AnneJ.
I repeatedly think simlar to what your wrote and then remind myself.. the name of the game is MLC.
This AmyC story did not give me hope, but it does tell me what I need to do. It also confirmed my action bias rather than 'brooding mode' I was in (still I get into it once in a while, but less freqeuently and duration had gone down too).
I began taking long walk in woods after BD in order to forget it. It won't leave me. Now a days, walk help me big time forget my LBS/MLC situation and even when reality hits me (while still on the walk) I manage it more like a workplace problem to solve as opposed to say.....er... dealing with MLC W.
Dr. NO
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So RCR or OP, how did Dadnotquitting's story end?
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Thundarr,
I guess the end of story is in the form of Quantum superposition .....the two outcomes probably in a state of Quantum probability cloud overlapping each other.
Like every other MLC- LBS story I guess. Even after reconcilation.. who knows how it goes.. not enough data I suppose.
May be all the memember of HS and LT should report after 10 years. We need study on MLC, similar to 30 year long Cornell- Oxford- China, The China study on Nutrition.
DR. NO.
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My hope does not come from other people's situations. When I look at a story like Amy's, I am looking for confirmation of the process, and what we know about MLC.
My hope comes from my belief system, the knowledge of what the core values of my MLCer were prior to MLC, and knowledge of the MLC process.
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True, Dr. No the name of the game is MLC.
DGU, AmyC story confirms what we already know about MLC and the process but it does not offer any new clue or solution.
All stories are the same: they have to do what they have to do and that is nothing we can do about it. One day they hit rock bottom, start to see the light and become very grateful we have been here, even if they have done the worst stuff on earth.
Knowing about MLC and the process and not looking for solutions is not good enough for me. Saying there is nothing we can do about it when one knows depression plays a major role on the whole thing, to me is like not wanting to go look for a way to minimize this whole thing.
Or maybe I’m just tired of this whole MLC thing… I know, it takes time but too much can really be too much…
I manage to do lots of non MLC related stuff however, since I remain married and are constantly reminded of it through court cases and debt notes, at times it becomes a little hard to forget I have a MLC husband and need a divorce very, very fast. Of course, since I want the divorce, no such luck.
How can we be sure the core believes of the MLCer have not been damaged? If their heads get too messed up, how do we know they are going to even be able to come down to earth in a functional state?
There are many former MLCers in the psychiatric hospital my friend works at. Both in outpatients as well as committed to the wards. Just not to mention the few in the graveyard. The ones in outpatients are the “less” serious cases. They’re ones who, when out of the tunnel, found they were on their own, had blow it all and some have even realised their minds were damaged for good. Some have previously been on the wards and are now on outpatients. The ones in the wards have tried to kill themselves and failed. Some may recover and become functional or semi-funcional, some never will. The ones in the graveyard are the ones who tried to kill themselves and succeed.
I still think for all those MLCers the price to become a better person was too high to pay. Let alone it could had been, if not avoid, at least minimize.
And now you ask why they were not on treatment before? Because, like many other people with psychiatric disorders, they see nothing wrong with them, they don’t look for help and it is usually only when they feel absolutely and totally depressed or try to kill themselves that they end up on the psychiatric hospital.
Of course I’m aware that rejection from the LBS will add to the possibility of having an MLCer trying to kill themselves. When they are on the bottom, try to get in touch with the LBS (it does not make a difference it the LBS has remarried, they will still try to get in touch) and find the LBS is not interested it may be too much for them to handle. At that point they really feel they have lost it all, see no hope for themselves and try to put an end to their lives.
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My hope does not come from other people's situations. When I look at a story like Amy's, I am looking for confirmation of the process, and what we know about MLC.
My hope comes from my belief system, the knowledge of what the core values of my MLCer were prior to MLC, and knowledge of the MLC process.
Exactly.
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AnneJ
You have sketched realistic and scary scenario.
LBS are damned if they want the D or if they are taken to cleaners because their MLC spouse wants a D!
The scenario you discussed is very realistic. I tried standing for my MLC W. Now she has filed for D and going ahead with breakneck speed and I am fine with it. I do want to jump out of this crashing train. I know many here will tell me that 'D' has nothing to do with standing.
I am moving on with my life and while 'D' is just a piece of paper to many (I have read that here many times), to me at least it is clearance from legal and financial nonsense that MLCer create.
Add to that the 'Raw raw' 'You go girl' books and media articles written for MLC woman! In my LBS journey I read 50+ books and many of them.. specifically directly at MLC W talk of MLC 'as best thing that ever happend to them'.
Train crashes are exciting in the movies, not in real life. Oh, I forgot that MLC's are in their own dreamworld. May be many writers who write these 'You go girl' books were still in their MLC when they wrote their books.
Dr. NO
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DGU, AmyC story confirms what we already know about MLC and the process but it does not offer any new clue or solution.
My belief is since MLC is a part of the developmental process, the only solution is to go through. I think we have a good idea of symptoms and clues.
All stories are the same: they have to do what they have to do and that is nothing we can do about it. One day they hit rock bottom, start to see the light and become very grateful we have been here, even if they have done the worst stuff on earth.
I think all stories being the same is evidence of what we know about MLC.
Knowing about MLC and the process and not looking for solutions is not good enough for me. Saying there is nothing we can do about it when one knows depression plays a major role on the whole thing, to me is like not wanting to go look for a way to minimize this whole thing.
I understand where you are coming from. I just don't think there is a (medical) solution.
Or maybe I’m just tired of this whole MLC thing… I know, it takes time but too much can really be too much…
Many, if not most LBS would agree I think.
How can we be sure the core believes of the MLCer have not been damaged? If their heads get too messed up, how do we know they are going to even be able to come down to earth in a functional state?
I guess it depends on what you believe about the process.
There are many former MLCers in the psychiatric hospital my friend works at. Both in outpatients as well as committed to the wards. Just not to mention the few in the graveyard. The ones in outpatients are the “less” serious cases. They’re ones who, when out of the tunnel, found they were on their own, had blow it all and some have even realised their minds were damaged for good. Some have previously been on the wards and are now on outpatients. The ones in the wards have tried to kill themselves and failed. Some may recover and become functional or semi-funcional, some never will. The ones in the graveyard are the ones who tried to kill themselves and succeed.
I am not a mental health professional and have not put any thought into it, but I don't think MLCers are psychiatric patients.
I still think for all those MLCers the price to become a better person was too high to pay. Let alone it could had been, if not avoid, at least minimize.
It is one of the most difficult things in life to have to deal with.
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OP, thanks for putting this info out there. Insights of the other side are few and far between but very illuminating.
I was a mean MLCer.
I convinced myself and everyone around me that my husband was the biggest SOB that ever walked. I BELIEVED it. I twisted every argument we'd ever had but ESPECIALLY as he fought me THEN.
I had all my family in support of my efforts.
Very interesting how he was convinced her H was a SOB and convinced everyone of the same.
My MLCer also told me at one time she needed space.
My W also told me she needed her own space. Needed to be independent. Wasn't in love with the person she had committed adultery with. Wasn't go to relocate to the country of OM. So what did she do? She left the country and moved in with OM.
honour
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So RCR or OP, how did Dadnotquitting's story end?
I don't really know. But I did click through to DB and then clicked on his profile to read his last post to see if there was anything new there--even before you asked.
He was posting in 2007 and then stopped or slowed down or I stopped noticing him...because his last post was in 2008 and he was talking about he and his wife living close to each other and it sounded as though they may have been starting to date. I did not read the few posts leading up to that however and there were not posts after to see how to worked through.
So without knowing, we cannot call it a reconciliation, but that last post clearly showe dpositive progress and to be honest I was surprised because he was such an angry, desperate and resistant Stander.
Anyone with an account at DB can click through the story, find DNQ's posts, click on his name and view all his posts. Then go to the last page to view the last posts.
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AnneJ
Add to that the 'Raw raw' 'You go girl' books and media articles written for MLC woman! In my LBS journey I read 50+ books and many of them.. specifically directly at MLC W talk of MLC 'as best thing that ever happend to them'.
Train crashes are exciting in the movies, not in real life. Oh, I forgot that MLC's are in their own dreamworld. May be many writers who write these 'You go girl' books were still in their MLC when they wrote their books.
Dr. NO
Dr No--I think a lot of what's written 'you go girl' is a reaction to the old way of looking at things. A man had more leeway in sexual adventures, or at least we had that impression. I think a woman who leaves their children and husband is still judged more harshly than a man but I have a female perspective. Modern Oprah encouragement is a kind of equalising. There's enough out there in popular culture to support almost ANY kind of bad behaviour. It don't make it right!!!
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The spirit of what she says resonates with me as I process through liminal depression. I *am* better than what I was, and my life is a more empowered place that this crisis grew me through to. I am now starting to work through issues with those around me who took the brunt of my vitriol, and I hope to have that chance with my H someday when he's through his, too. Being on the receiving end now, I know that is of little encouragement to the LBS. But at least there is a promise that we could possibly know again someone who will be more than what they were.
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Does anyone know anything further about AmyC's story?
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DGU, of course MLCers during replay are not psychiatrist patients but when the depression becomes overt and very deep, or when they try to kill themselves, like my cousin did, they become patients of psychiatrists. There are many people who, in the doctor words “blew up their lives” (meaning left spouse, former life, job, etc) that end up on the hands of psychiatrist. A few end up dead.
A little after I have been back home my husband called, crying, saying he was sorry for everything. I asked, do you mean OW1? He said, no everything I’ve been doing for the past years, before she come along. HE said he was deeply depressed and needed help. I said, ok, do you want me or your sister to bring you back? You can stay at your mothers house and you can go see your sister psychiatrist. Husband said, no, no, nothing will ever change the way I feel, I’m, depressed. I said, well, if you are depressed and don’t want to come back home, why don’t you go see doctor X (the doctor of the company husband worked for at the time). Husband said no, no, there is nothing the doctor could do.
Pretty much the same thing AmyC says. Husband as also, during OW1, said a lot of times he needed my help, that he was depressed, I told him that there was nothing I could do to help him, only he could help himself and that he should go see a doctor. He refused to go see a doctor. But where do you think I would had taken my husband had he accepted help? To the psychiatrist.
So, I know he was (still is) depressed and refused to go see a doctor. Meaning he does not wanted to take any help and in not taking any help destroyed everything and put me through terrible suffering. Probably he put himself thought terrible suffering as well but that is his business. I see no reason for me to be lovely with someone who clearly had a problem, depression, and refused to get help.
The whole “I’m so sorry I destroyed everything but I was not well” thing is very nice but solves nothing. It solves nothing when they are so sorry at BD, after BD or when, after Replay they start to see the light at the end of the tunnel. It cannot bring back the years, it cannot undone the financial problems, it cannot repay for all the damage they have caused. No point saying you are so sorry after you’ve done all the damage, better avoid the damage. Words are great but action speak volumes.
If you can’t help yourself and stop the damage, at least let the other person go free. Then the LBS is allowed to have a choice (stand, not stand, remain single, remarry, whatver) and does not have to remain married to a nasty MLCer. I fail to see how this constant drag of the divorce by my husband is supposed to be good for any reconnection, let alone reconciliation. It is getting to the point when I so, so fed up of it all, so tired, so exhausting, and we are far from being divorced, that I cringe at the thought of having him back. I want to be free of all this legal and financial mess, to have time to breath safely. Not to remain on this constant stage of “when will another court notification arrive? Or another debt note?” This does me no good and it certainly does no good to any future relationship with husband. And the idea of reconnection/reconciliation and what it entails only makes me want to run for the hills.
By the way, from what she writes/says, AmyC does not seem to me to be a particularly nasty MLCer… Maybe that is because I have one of the real nasty, nasty ones…?
Not all MLCers make it, DGU. Some of them do lost their minds on the process. Or they lost their minds because they found themselves on their own in the end. The process does not have the same outcome to everyone. No point in pretend it does because it does not. To most the process ends the good way, MLCer keep
I don’t know if all, or many of LBS would agree with me…Four or three years ago I would be more or less fine with the whole situation. Has more and more years pass and you remain married to a vanisher that keeps causing too much damaged you become less and less inclined to be kind towards MLC and all that comes with it. When husband was a clingy boomerang some how things were different.
It would be very easy to deal with MLC if I was divorced. It was no longer my business. Like Dr No I would like a clearance from the financial and legal absurdity that the MLCer creates.
Dr No, I guess those books are like the articles in women’s magazines. They encourage everyone to have their life, no matter what, since it makes them “happy”. Exactly, train crashes are exciting in the movies, not in real life.
Calamity, I man that leaves wife and children is judged harshly. If he only leaves the wife then I think it is like if a childless wife leaves a husband, not much is think of it.
Ready2, I think you’ve managed to gasp something in this crisis thing I have not. I’m more than what I were (mostly for many hard family affairs that happened since husband left), some from my own transition but I don’t have much of a desire of meeting whatever more of what husband may become. It would be safe to say I don’t have much faith in him and that may be the problem. I really don’t have much faith in him.
I don’t even have much interest in get to know better my cousin now that he been out of his transition/crisis. So far he has not been a more interesting person that he was before and he still is too irritable and angry at the world. Maybe what I’m trying to say is that I will only be interested in meet and know again/better someone who has already become whole again, someone to whom Rebirth had happened a while ago.
Of course I may change may mind, life is full of surprises.
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Amy C 6/16/06 from DB
As an exWAS, I have to say, I think I EXPECTED that my husband knew the things that pissed me off...so I never really even tried to talk about it. I guess I was under that stupid impression that if he loved me, he'd change (God, was I THAT ignorant!? UGH!) So it really did just snowball and instead of trying to talk about it reasonably like an adult, I got derailed by MLC and then couldn't even manage to form a coherent friggin sentence that would begin to explain the garbage in my head. BUT, while IN the MLC, I told my husband that he'd had plenty of time to turn things around. It's just too bad he didn't have a crystal ball.
So don't sweat it Lissett.
You either, Hope.
Until I started reading this thread, I had really forgotten all about telling my husband that nonsense. Just goes to prove that an MLCer, for the most part, is not in his or her right mind.
Now I just wonder what else I have forgotten....
Amy
6/22/06
There are a few things you have yet to grasp about MLC.
1) We (the MLCer) will comb through every aspect of the past to get a handful of "reasons" we will tell YOU that it is over and should have been back then.
2) Whatever the MLCer says, he or she really means it WHEN THEY ARE SAYING IT.
3) Neither of the above will apply on the other side of the tunnel. Half of it won't even be remembered at all.
But as long as your husband is in MLC (and I really believe he is) he's not reliable, his memory is not reliable, his entire view of the future is not reliable. Nothing he says, feels or does while in MLC will be the same once he is out. The only thing that will be the same are the bruises and scars YOU carry because of all he has done.
There's a wall going up around your heart now.
It's going to get higher.
That is not necessarily a bad thing under these circumstances. The layers will peel away when the time comes to rebuild, if YOU choose to do so.
The only question now is what will he do when he comes out of the tunnel and deals with life on life's terms?
Will he continue on puffed up by foolish pride and afraid to let anyone see his real feelings over the horror he has caused?
Or will he turn around, learn, grow and try to make up for it all?
Only time will tell.
As you know, you can't stop living your life.
But you also don't have to rewrite your memories of the past to agree with his temporarily warped perception of things.
8/24/06
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Main=36871&Number=1391838#Post1391838
8/27/06
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Main=36873&Number=1391856#Post1391856
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Now this one OP, was helpful. Thank you!
Nothing he says, feels or does while in MLC will be the same once he is out. The only thing that will be the same are the bruises and scars YOU carry because of all he has done.
There's a wall going up around your heart now.
It's going to get higher.
That is not necessarily a bad thing under these circumstances. The layers will peel away when the time comes to rebuild, if YOU choose to do so.
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OP,
What you posted from AmyC two posts above is really helpful.
In my last encounter with my MLCer, this actually happened!
1) We (the MLCer) will comb through every aspect of the past to get a handful of "reasons" we will tell YOU that it is over and should have been back then.
and he also told me soon after BD that I had had enough time to turn things around, it was just too late now...
It is reassuring to hear thatNothing he says, feels or does while in MLC will be the same once he is out.
So I guess we need to protect our hearts and minds from all the cruel things they say and do, knowing that they aren't in their right minds most of the time.
I am bruised and scarred but I know that time heals especially if we are able to forgive. Forgiveness is mainly for us.
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OP, Thank you so much.
Mitzpah....My MLC W said the and in same sequence....just after BD
Good to know that everything is happening per well oiled, repeatitive 'drama' script.
Dr. NO
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So it really did just snowball and instead of trying to talk about it reasonably like an adult, I got derailed by MLC and then couldn't even manage to form a coherent friggin sentence that would begin to explain the garbage in my head. BUT, while IN the MLC, I told my husband that he'd had plenty of time to turn things around. It's just too bad he didn't have a crystal ball.
So, they are little kids, don't talk and let themselves be hit by crisis mode. Even if he had a crystal ball would not do of most because I don't think Amy, or any other MLCer would listen.
Amy
6/22/06
There are a few things you have yet to grasp about MLC.
1) We (the MLCer) will comb through every aspect of the past to get a handful of "reasons" we will tell YOU that it is over and should have been back then.
Problem is, they keep saying is over but don't really allow it to end. Not even if the LBS is done. Why don't they just lets us go if its over and we're done?... Does any former MLCer has an answer to that?
2) Whatever the MLCer says, he or she really means it WHEN THEY ARE SAYING IT.
True.
3) Neither of the above will apply on the other side of the tunnel. Half of it won't even be remembered at all.
True for the MLCer. They won't be remembered but LBS. Will. And not only what they have said but what they have done.
But as long as your husband is in MLC (and I really believe he is) he's not reliable, his memory is not reliable, his entire view of the future is not reliable. Nothing he says, feels or does while in MLC will be the same once he is out. The only thing that will be the same are the bruises and scars YOU carry because of all he has done.
True, they are not reliable, their memories are not reliable - I've had several proofs f it with husband.
Yes, the bruises and scars we have will be the same because of what they ahve done and they don't remember a thing. Meaning, if we take them back we will live the rest of our lives with the person who has hurt us beyond belief and left us with permanent bruises and scars. Not a very good or healthy perspective if you ask me...
The more I read the stories of people in MLC the more I think we are better off without them while they are on crisis and that remain married to them is not the solution for some of us. And I'm not certain we will all want them back, being we married or divorced. Plus, divorce we are not at the mercy of an unreliable MLCer financial and legal messes.
My husband is following the script to detail but, unlike with many of you, that does not make me feel any better. Just angry at him because he has been keeping me legaly attached to him for 6 years.
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So all the women here don't feel to left out here is a thread from a male MLC'er who posted on DB.
His name was - My favorite weidro. - His wife also posted on DB before him.
I do believe they get back together at the end.
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1287247&page=1
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OP, From that latest link you posted:
“W and I started going to counseling while I was back home. It was good until I went by myself. The counselor told me I need to choose between the 2 women. She also told me that OW#2 sounded like a typical mid-life mate that ultimately was the one for me (a companion mate) versus my W who I met when we were young, opposites attract, we made kids because that is what biology dictates, then I moved on to find my “soul-mate”… “
Would say counsellors repeatedly seem to be responsible for a lot that MLCers (and non MLCers) end up doing. Wife was the young attraction and OW2 the midlife/lifelong mate?... What sort of a counsel is this?... Counsellors and therapists, overall, seem to do more bad than good.
“I have been living with OW2 since then (July 2007). I have been through hell and back with antidepressants (it took me a long time to admit I was chemically challenged).”
So, they know they are depressed and chemically imbalanced. And some even manage to take AA or AD for a while and, when they do it, they feel better.
“Fast forward to now – I want to restore my marriage and my family. I am still depressed, but have some clarity as to what is important.”
They keep knowing they are depressed and a point always comes when they want to restore all they have ruined. Think they always end up at this point.
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AnneJ,
OP, From that latest link you posted:
“W and I started going to counseling while I was back home. It was good until I went by myself. The counselor told me I need to choose between the 2 women. She also told me that OW#2 sounded like a typical mid-life mate that ultimately was the one for me (a companion mate) versus my W who I met when we were young, opposites attract, we made kids because that is what biology dictates, then I moved on to find my “soul-mate”… “
Would say counsellors repeatedly seem to be responsible for a lot that MLCers (and non MLCers) end up doing. Wife was the young attraction and OW2 the midlife/lifelong mate?... What sort of a counsel is this?... Counsellors and therapists, overall, seem to do more bad than good.
Not knowing exactly how the exchange went between the MLCer and the counselor.....remember he is relating the story based upon HIS viewpoint (which is the only manner he could tell the story, right)?
I'm guessing he told the counselor that he was involved with 2 women....and the counselor stated that he could not remain in that type of situation - that he needs to choose between one and the other.
Being an MLCer - I would bet his pro and con list - had his wife with most or all of the cons and this new wonderful OW as the pro. I don't know if he convinced his counselor about how better suited he was with the OW.....or if he just heard what he wanted to hear - (another typical MLC trait).
If the counselor truly did counsel him out of his marriage and encourage him to pursue his affair (which I really have a difficult time believing) - then that counselor shouldn't be counseling ANYONE. If anything - he should be counseled to be ALONE for a time - and really get to know himself...and what he wants before making ANY decisions.
My H's counselor (it seems to me...as I have NEVER met her and only know what he and the kids have said about her) - seemed to have counseled my H out the door. But, is that what she really did? Did he see her and tell her that he no longer wanted to be married and wanted counseling on how to move on with his life? I know that she told him that his love of his ex-wife was a fantasy and not real (H told me this)......and I know that he hasn't seen her for a long, long time........(I guess the moving on with his life hasn't happened).....
I think MLCers hear what they want to hear. And counseling does them no good....especially during Replay.
L
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Limitless,
We only have what the MLCer wrote but the argument the cousellor used can be often found in women’s magazines, several web sites and I have even people heard people say things like that many times before.
And it would not be the first time a counsellor tells the person that they need to do what they need to do to be happy.
But here is the rest of what the MLCers wrote:
“W and I started going to counseling while I was back home. It was good until I went by myself. The counselor told me I need to choose between the 2 women. She also told me that OW#2 sounded like a typical mid-life mate that ultimately was the one for me (a companion mate) versus my W who I met when we were young, opposites attract, we made kids because that is what biology dictates, then I moved on to find my “soul-mate”… I told my W the day after that visit that I had honestly tried, that I could live with myself, that I could look in the mirror and feel good about who I was. I told her that I needed to be with OW#2 and that I could be a better father to the kids while with OW2 than I could be while living miserably in the house with her. I moved out that weekend.”
When he started going on his own, OW2 become the woman to go for. However the counsellor knew his wife. Well, we know MLCers only listen what they want to… so…
True, counselling does them no good during Replay. My cousin went to tons of psycologists and none of them was of any use.
I’m not so sure the love for an ex-spouse is a fantasy. If I remarry I don’t think I will ever stop love my husband. That does not mean I will not be able to love second husband. Love for a former spouse is different but I think it still exists.
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I can tell from my experience that MC we used was great on phone and talked all Blah Blah until we landed in his office. I had to stop that MC nonsense after 4 sessions. Without even asking me a Q or my opinion, in session #4, he began saying.. "So, now based on what you told me (my MLC W told him), now the MC switches over from 'marriage counseling' to 'Divorce counseling'. My MLC W nodded in agreement and then he wasted how we using his services to figure out our D is less costly than going through lawyers.
When I told him I am not planning on using his services (at the end of session#4, the greedy fella won't give up). He said.. "I want to meet with you again". I tried to be polite but explained how I have decided to discontinue his services. He was persistent. At that point I asked him.. if he was willing to pay MY hourly rate since it was him who wanted to mee with me!
Go figure.
Dr. NO
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So, a question about the script. It seems to be pretty much uniform around BD and a few months after but what about in the second half of this. Any observations?
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I know that as of last summer, when I was still in the thick of my own crisis, I was looking forward to seeking counseling to help distance myself from my father in order to end my relationship with him. I truly believed he'd stunted my growth and been responsible for the downfall of my marriage, and pretty much anything else I could pin on him. I had replayed back to my rough childhood and was holding him hostage for all of the bad things that I felt he hadn't stopped, and I'd twisted my thoughts into feeling like that had paralyzed me.
Keep in mind, I'd had a wonderful relationship with my dad prior to this, he'd loaned me an extensive amount of money that I was running from paying, and had done absolutely nothing to get slapped with this out of the blue. But if I *had* seen a therapist, he or she would never have known that, because the MLC glasses were firmly in place. Their counseling would only be as good as the information they were given to work with. And at the time, I 100% would have stood behind what I was saying.
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So, a question about the script. It seems to be pretty much uniform around BD and a few months after but what about in the second half of this. Any observations?
From my experience with husband and cousin, a point comes when they totally want to disconnect from the LBS. They are going deeped and deeper into the tunnel/depression.
Kikki and other LBS with children say that, after some time, they start talking to the kids about OW.
My husband is on OW2. He become more and more teenager while with her, his Replay behaviour increased. He has been with her for nearly 4 years.
As you know, he is a vanisher but I hear a lot through the grapevine and SIL FB.
The other thing I think its on the script is that, as time passes, they age. A lot.
And they become more and more forgetful about things from the pre-BD, around BD and the early months. Things they have said or done to the LBS. My husband knows what he did with OW1. I know because of his voice inflexion when he says: “you don’t know what happened, you know nothing about it”. He has another voice inflexion to the things he really does not remember.
What I don’t know is what he has done with monster. No idea where moster goes to since I’m not in contact with him. Last year I hear monster on the phone (first time in 2 years because we had not talked on the phone for 2 years or more) but this year there was no phone monster. Doubt monster goes to OW2…
More scrip, MLCers keeps lying to other person, other person keep manipulating. MLCers starts to have enough of other person but has no idea how to get rid of other person. Plus, MLCer has messes up big time with spouse.
The end of the second half will be MLCer hitting rock bottom, limilar depression and, from them on, trying to get together with LBS. Bon and the other who are reconnecting / in reconciliation write about how trying that phase is.
I think there is a big part, in the middle, where it pretty much is MLCer on la la la land, looking like they are not making any progress at our eyes. Probably they are but it will look much of the same to us.
HB wrote a lot on the final stages of MLC, think you can find a lot on info on her threads/posts.
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I’m not so sure the love for an ex-spouse is a fantasy. If I remarry I don’t think I will ever stop love my husband. That does not mean I will not be able to love second husband. Love for a former spouse is different but I think it still exists.
AnneJ,
I understand your comment. If I were to re-marry - I would imagine that I would still have some feelings (deep down) for my husband......
I have only been married once and it has been a long marriage (32 years)....so I guess I am not able to relate to the attraction of an ex-spouse.
My H and his first wife were married for 1.5 years when he was 20. They had no children. He had been divorced for 4+ years when we met.
I think the fantasy was that he believed he could just be with her and they could start again where they left off. He with a wife and kids....she with a husband and a daughter....and 1500 miles distance between them. I guess it was a fantasy to believe that she was his "true" wife and I had been his affair.
I'm not sure he feels this way today....but back in December he told our kids that she had been the only woman who had truly known him. Maybe that is true...I don't know. I just know that I was the woman he spent the majority of his life with. Maybe he never showed me the "true" him.
I may be more than a bit tainted - but if I were a counselor comments like that would lead me to believe that the person is living in some type of fantasy world.
limitless
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So, a question about the script. It seems to be pretty much uniform around BD and a few months after but what about in the second half of this. Any observations?
I'm pretty sure that RCR wrote about this somewhere?? As they get further and further into the crisis, the crisis becomes more individual and specific to that person and their situation. It is more varied.
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So, a question about the script. It seems to be pretty much uniform around BD and a few months after but what about in the second half of this. Any observations?
I think it's about getting to Liminality. After Liminality comes Rebirth and Reintegration....the new Self if you will.
Everything leading up to Liminal Depression was preparation; the real work begins here. Liminality is the means to reintegrating the Shadow fragments.
Keep in mind what RCR writes about the first two years (ish) in the article Being Number One
I know, two years feels like an eternity, but in MLC it's merely the end of the beginning.
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Second half.... if that's what we're in... consists of "I don't want to be with her... I don't want to be there.... I know where my heart wants to be.... I can see the BIG picture, and it is home with you and the kids..... she knows THIS is my HOME.... I'm TORN.... I don't know why I do the things I do.... maybe it's self sabotage..... maybe I'm trying to kill myself.... just shoot me and put me out of my misery.... I don't want to be with you, her or ANYONE..... but IF I am with her, you DO know the kids will have to meet her.... but I don't WANT to be with her..... I shouldn't BE here (her house).... you know "that other thing" (ow r) isn't real, right?..... just because I say "i love you" to her doesn't make it true, ya know?.... PLEASE.... don't give up on me...."
Now, digest that for a minute and LET GO..... they are sincerely confused!!! IF they had a stroke and then couldn't remember how to tie their shoes, would you take it personally? Cus, YES, they know right from wrong..... BUT, it's THEIR MLC version of right and wrong they are adhering to.... as AmyC says... they won't be like that afterward. In the meantime, confusion reigns and you are comparing apples to oranges. Still suck, though!!!
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The end of the beginning ??? So Replay is like the 5 hour pre game show before the Super Bowl. Then kick off and the game is Liminality...LOL!
Thank God for the commercials or we'd have nothing good to laugh about during this....Oh yeah the script!
LG where's that thread funny things the mlcer says? "I am always more HERE with you than THERE with her. Even when I'm with her" :o :o :o :o :o
Sounds like someone locked up in Sing Sing. :P
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Some may disagree with me strongly but what I've observed, if I can put it in a tiny nutshell, is that the first half is sort of trying to be everything they are not...as they are so miserable with themselves, they just want to be different. Though the bulk of their misery is blamed on and/or projected onto others (spouse usually).
The second half would be more figuring out who they really are, and, admitting their misery with themselves more.
That's what I've experienced in my H at least.
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Bon Sounds pretty accurate and it fits in a nutshell. I believe it. :o Trust the Process :P
MLCers don't have the script.
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Nicely said, Bon!!
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Lets all pray our spouses make it to the second half then ::)
LG where's that thread funny things the mlcer says? "I am always more HERE with you than THERE with her. Even when I'm with her"
Sounds like someone locked up in Sing Sing.
That would have to be my weirdo MLCer!
I think we do need to resurrect that thread. Surely there must be more to add by now.
Such as today.
Txt from H MLCer: I've asked S17 to the movies with me tomorrow night. Will ask S16 as well.
Me - will you ask S14 too?
MLCer - R16
Me - Which movie?
MLCer - Prometheus in 3d - should scare the living bej*sus outta them. (note the teen lingo). S17 keen as mustard.
When S17 gets home I say that his Dad had said the above. S17 shows me his texts to his Dad.
S17 - Which movie?
MLC Dad - Prometheus 3D
S17 - Okay, which night?
S17 is yet to hear back. Keen as mustard? Wow - no wonder the OW gets such a fantastical rewrite if the above exchange is 'keen as mustard!' :-\
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I'm going to need to delve into AmyC's story again, but back to what Bon said about the first half being blaming the other party.... I've just seen my H drop his mask for a moment and let me see that his big fear, or issue, or whatever you want to call it is that he has to be responsible, especially materially. And that, of course, is because of me. Reasoning being that if I didn't exist the responsibility wouldn't exist. I know that is typical MLC. Now this has been going on for a long time; I need to yet again find nerves of steel.
It's hard to navigate (yet again); we don't want to take away the responsibility from them, even if we think that it might show them that no, that doesn't make them happy, but neither do we want to "fight". I do know that appeasement doesn't work, not ever. One LBS I used to know put it as "not coddling the invalid too much".
At the same time we need to "meet them in their crisis", not in the crisis that we think it is or in someone else's (as RCR once put it to me). And we have to take responsibility ourselves, recognising where we DO have to take on more. Crikey.
I do wonder if men and women take this differently; the female MLCer I know has a bit of this, but her big thing is that she doesn't think she has "love" with her H, and wants that big excitement, and so on. I've seen that in another female MLCer I know, who now about 7 years later regrets it all, but it's too late. The other one I know of in RL also said the "it's my turn now" thing, something I know the male LBS on this board have heard frequently.
I've been slipping in and out of moments of clarity about this; am trying to get it down.
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In Conways STAGES, the first three are running away and the last threee are rebuilding. so that would agree with what Bon Bon wrote.
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I've just seen my H drop his mask for a moment and let me see that his big fear, or issue, or whatever you want to call it is that he has to be responsible, especially materially. And that, of course, is because of me. Reasoning being that if I didn't exist the responsibility wouldn't exist. I know that is typical MLC. Now this has been going on for a long time; I need to yet again find nerves of steel.
I
Have to be financially responsible is one of the big fears of mine. I'm a burden blah blah blah. Funny thing is that mine pays OW2 ways, specially now that she has lost her job late last year.
Mine has other fears and some of them are real. He become Intellectually behind and he is no longer a match for me since all his interests are reduced to clubbing. (this is true and is also an issue for me, he is years behind and I have nothing to talk to him about). He also fears he is incapable of looking after someone and having no skills to deal with elderly people or children. (these I think are just his fears. He was good dealing with my siblings when they were small. Don't know about eldery people).
It is all just fear and we have to put up with their fear, frustration and resentment. Not atractive.
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Kikki--I went to my fridge?
My mustard just sits there. Very quiet, very bored.
Keen as mustard....well, that's not very keen, I'm thinking.
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Kikki--I went to my fridge?
My mustard just sits there. Very quiet, very bored.
Keen as mustard....well, that's not very keen, I'm thinking.
;D Glad you came to the same result. I tested my mustard out too - didn't show any enthusiasm either ???
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You know what makes me mad? I don't eat mustard, but a new bottle sits in my fridge because I went grocery shopping right before finding out my H was divorcing me. So there's all these wastes of money and fridge/cabinet space, all these reminders around my kitchen that I've got a husband who isn't coming home anymore. I'd throw 'em away but I'd prefer to throw 'em AT.
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Ha! Now that mustard isn't keen at ALL! Seriously though, you might think of donating stuff like that to a shelter, food pantry, or even some place like an animal rescue that can keep it in the their break room fridge for volunteers' lunchtimes. They deserve it more than your H does, and you won't have to look at it anymore! :)
There were so many things I left around to make him more comfortable when he was here, but when I started to move it to fit MY needs, the energy changed. A boundary was laid down, and I could see it making him question (plus, my daily life was so much better). Get rid of that stuff, you won't believe how much better you'll feel! It truly is the little things.
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You know what makes me mad? I don't eat mustard, but a new bottle sits in my fridge because I went grocery shopping right before finding out my H was divorcing me. So there's all these wastes of money and fridge/cabinet space, all these reminders around my kitchen that I've got a husband who isn't coming home anymore. I'd throw 'em away but I'd prefer to throw 'em AT.
DUMP THE MUSTARD! DUMP! THE! MUSTARD!
(Could be a new mantra, eh?)
You'll feel a lot better to have the space.
Mustard is about as cheap as an OW, anyway.
Doh, I went there.
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Mustard is about as cheap as an OW, anyway.
And it smells better.
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Can't 'cut the mustard'? I think that means you are not strong enough or something.
So what I am wondering is, we see this typical behaviour with what we believe is mlc. But when couples split up 'normally' does it look any different? I don't remember 'breaking up', it has been 30-odd years & I was a teenager. When one spouse decides to leave a long-term marriage, I am sure there are break-ups that are not mlc, what is the difference between that and mlc? I know it is obvious when the mlcer stay home but when they leave? I guess I am asking what a 'normal' break-up looks like and there probably is no normal?
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Can't 'cut the mustard'?
That is a strange one when you think about it!!
I have both whole grain and dijon mustards in my fridge. Cutting them both would be easy for me, but probably not for the MLCer??
Calamity - 'normal' breakups are planned events. You know they are coming. You talk about the demise before it happens. The Bomb is not dropped on you from out of nowhere.
In 'normal' breakups, the leaving spouse has a plan. You know where they will be living, it is explained to the children, and that person continues to parent the kids as before.
In MLC - the alienator seems to provide the escape accommodation, or seems to have a large hand in organising it in some way, as the MLCer is not thinking with enough clarity to do it by themselves, the kids lose that parent in terms of normal functioning, and in quite a few cases the MLCer disappears and you don't know where they are living.
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One very knowledgeable LBS on this site - put it to me in a way that I could understand it very clearly.....
And this is very close to what Kiki is saying.
What makes the difference between a "regular" marital split and MLC? Bomb drop. Bomb Drop is the difference between a WAS and MLC....
L
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Here is another post to ButterFlyMom who reconciled with her MLC'er MyfavoriteWierdo.
that I posted earlier in this thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...196#Post1382196
BFM ~ It really upsets me to read that your husband was treated badly here by some people. Had I seen it at the time... well, I think we know what would have happened ;\) and it wouldn't have been pretty.
Your husband has done THE HARDEST THING IN THE WORLD THERE IS TO DO AFTER MLC - turn around and try to return home - and you can tell him that I said, from experience, that he has a hell of a lot to be proud of himself for because it takes a Divine conviction the likes of which UTTERLY SLAYS the prideful MLC spirit (and the newly awake MLCer has to practically BEG God for), and then it takes balls the size of Texas to look at our LBSs and admit we were wrong - all wrong- and to ask your forgiveness when it is all we can do to stand upright in the face of the realization of what we have done. If anyone, and I mean on any website, bashes someone that has survived MLC to return to their family - or even try to - they KNOW NOTHING - I REPEAT - THEY HAVE LEARNED NOTHING - while they've been claiming to stand for an MLCer. They are hypocrites. Stupid (which is different than ignorant as they have been exposed to the information on MLC) hypocrites!
AmyC
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What makes the difference between a "regular" marital split and MLC? Bomb drop. Bomb Drop is the difference between a WAS and MLC....
I think that sums it up very well. I had no clue my husband would walk out on me. We didn't have marriage problems, not ones big enough to walk away from, just your usual little issues.
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I think Thundarr had mentioned that before too, that it seemed like MLC carried with it reasons based on such miniscule problems, versus a 'regular' breakup that was always over much bigger things, or problems they tried to work on but could not get past. Basically, does it make sense? Then it's a breakup. Is it from Mars? It's MLC.
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Good, then that's one of my nagging doubts gone b/c it sure was a bomb drop. Thanks everyone. You give me strength.
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I am sure there are break-ups that are not mlc, what is the difference between that and mlc?
I agree with the input about bomb drop. I will add two other things that are common to many MLCers that wouldn't necessarily seem to be there in other breakups.......cycling (indecision) and Boomerang contact type, which is most common among MLCers.
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BD2 for me was over two years ago... i still have a problem when people refer to our relationship 'breaking up' or we 'split up'..i didn't go anywhere..(well technically i've had to move, but you know what i mean :) )so i tend to correct people who make a reference in that way 'sorry to hear you guys have broken up' etc...i always say he left; not my choice, he abandoned us... i notice how i say it can make the other person uncomfortable..but..that's what happened. I didn't have a say.
When someone refers to the breakup or split.. it's like there is an assumption i'm included in the 'break up' decision making and that's so not the case! I remained with our children to pick up the pieces etc etc. I remember when someone i knew started to say sorry about your breakup etc and i explained as best i could and she said 'oh..i thought it must have been you that left or had the affair as when i asked your H at a gig recently where you were, he just look sad and remained silent' ! i suppose i can't really imagine him saying..oh you won't see HeyJude here, i thought it best to have an affair and leave her and the boys..seemed the right thing to do at the time..i was sure i was going to be so much happier once i was 'free' of her and family...'or do they want people to just feel sorry for them..... and on it goes!! ??? >:( :D
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HJ, I know what you mean about people assuming I had a part in the "split". My line is "I didn't participate in that decision". That seems to state it clearly without me having to go into it any more.
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HJ, I know what you mean about people assuming I had a part in the "split". My line is "I didn't participate in that decision". That seems to state it clearly without me having to go into it any more.
Now if BF could see that distinction. Sigh. Sent him a text last night to that effect, stating that normal couples talk and try to work out what is wrong. Went on to state that walking out the door was not a mutual decision; it was an act of cowardice. I know it won't make a difference but I hate having to live with this every day while he waltzes around doing as he pleases without a conscience apparently.
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Now if BF could see that distinction. Sigh. Sent him a text last night to that effect, stating that normal couples talk and try to work out what is wrong. Went on to state that walking out the door was not a mutual decision; it was an act of cowardice. I know it won't make a difference but I hate having to live with this every day while he waltzes around doing as he pleases without a conscience apparently.
And that's why you, as an unmarried woman who has no kids with this man, needs to seriously consider why you are putting up with his crap at all.
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BD2 for me was over two years ago... i still have a problem when people refer to our relationship 'breaking up' or we 'split up'..i didn't go anywhere..(well technically i've had to move, but you know what i mean :) )so i tend to correct people who make a reference in that way 'sorry to hear you guys have broken up' etc...i always say he left; not my choice, he abandoned us... i notice how i say it can make the other person uncomfortable..but..that's what happened. I didn't have a say.
When someone refers to the breakup or split.. it's like there is an assumption i'm included in the 'break up' decision making and that's so not the case! I remained with our children to pick up the pieces etc etc. I remember when someone i knew started to say sorry about your breakup etc and i explained as best i could and she said 'oh..i thought it must have been you that left or had the affair as when i asked your H at a gig recently where you were, he just look sad and remained silent' ! i suppose i can't really imagine him saying..oh you won't see HeyJude here, i thought it best to have an affair and leave her and the boys..seemed the right thing to do at the time..i was sure i was going to be so much happier once i was 'free' of her and family...'or do they want people to just feel sorry for them..... and on it goes!! ??? >:( :D
EXACTLY!
My xH went around explaining to people, "Oh, Cali and I split up."
Split up? Split up?
No--no, we didn't "split up." He just left.
But saying we "split up" sounds so much more...mutual. And he would look very angry about it, too, and I looked ok, except for the part about the crash diet causing sunken eyes and baggy clothes--but I would smile and try to look nice.
Now I tell people the truth--xH left the family for another woman. I still live in our family home with the boys full time.
Cuz that's the truth.
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My xH went around explaining to people, "Oh, Cali and I split up."
MAYBE it is your SPLIT personality, Cali and NoRegrets ;D ;D ;D
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EXACTLY!
My xH went around explaining to people, "Oh, Cali and I split up."
Split up? Split up?
No--no, we didn't "split up." He just left.
My MLCer told people we had grown apart ???. It would have been nice if I had known we had grown apart. I would have appreciated being let in on the secret; it might have helped alleviate the shock and trauma of BD.
We've grown apart now, that's for sure.
honour
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Mine told the guy he went and live with before BD that things were not going well between us and that we had agree to give it a time… ::) ::) ::) Then, after BD se said we slipt up. ::) ::) ::)
Must be another one of those MLCers things…
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My MLCer told people we had grown apart
This is a very common MLC quote. Mine said it too.....starting with saying it to me.
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Just thought I'd put a post up in this thread to thank you for posting this on our forum. I read the AmyC thread the other night and got a lot from it at a time when I was cycling really low. It saved me in many ways and reopened my eyes to things I had forgotten about being the MLC'er.
I realize now that my biggest problem is patience, having gone through MLC myself I was applying my timeline to my W and growing more and more impatient as the days wore on. She is passing me in length of duration. I now truly realize that I have no control over how long it is going to take and a better grasp on the fact that it could very well not turn out the way I intend.
I still believe strongly that we will make it but only if I learn to trust the process and shut my mouth!! Further I need to stop giving lip service to what I plan to do and get on with the doing of it. no more procrastination or I will definitely fail.
I like most of you love my spouse with all my heart and soul, more so now I think after recommitting at least to myself to a life with her. I also realized that I have been damaged by my inability to express myself to her during my awakening due to her being in her own MLC at the time.
I still do not know what I can do about that yet, I know it has made it harder for me to detach and to play the role.
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Thank you for reminding me:
1. Patience.
2. Stop talking & planning & act.
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RivenIn2
May be it would be educational to hear of your thought process as MLCer.
Dr.NO
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RivenIn2
May be it would be educational to hear of your thought process as MLCer.
Dr.NO
Well sure I would be glad to answer any questions.
I would not really know what to talk about otherwise. MLC for me was a living hell that was punctuated by the height of selfishness. I felt like a child at times, I could not formulate my thoughts into cohesive sentences to speak to my wife. If something about her bothered me it become huge in my mind and at least to me so sensitive that to talk about it with her would be downright impossible.
I kept secrets because it felt like "They were mine" all mine and I did not have to share them with anyone.
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Doc Hudson, I read your question to R2D2, on why, as an unmarried woman with no kids, she was putting up with her man's behavior. As another unmarried woman who is standing for her partner (as are other unmarried partners on this site), I believe the reason is similar for all of us. It is because we know who are partners were, we recognize the 180 change in them as not being normal, and we, like even one else here, pray that someday they will emerge from their tunnel and remember who we were and what we had together (though I also know, no expectations!)
I had been with my partner for 16 years, when the man I considered my hero, changed into someone unrecognizable. The change was so drastic that I called his doctor concerned that my partner was in a major depressive episode. Now he is deep in replay and in love with his soulmate, who conveniently was a former student of his and lived around the corner from him all these years! Normal? No. MLC like, yes. I stand because I know who he was and don't believe our life, though not married was a complete lie, though like times I do question my memories after listening to him rewrite history for so long.
Just wanted to speak up for R2D2 and the rest of the unmarried here.
And, nice to meet you Doc, always read your posts.
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Same thing. My H told everybody that we had grown apart. He even told this story to me and the kids. BD: My H told me he had to live apart from us for a while. I didn't understand why but he wanted to think about our R. (???) When in his new apartment he start R with OW. In his opinion this was not adultery and he did nothing wrong. But although suspecting something going on like this, we didn't know anything. After one month he disappeared completely and when he came back after a week he told me he had been on a vacation with his new girlfriend. He was manic x 100!!! Wants to tell me everything about her. He never talked to OW before. He met her in a pub, talked to her only once and then immediately decided to leave us. He even jelled at me: 'Look what you have done, I am with a complete stranger now.'
And she is a major affair down in every aspect.
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He was manic x 100!!! Wants to tell me everything about her. He never talked to OW before. He met her in a pub, talked to her only once and then immediately decided to leave us. He even jelled at me: 'Look what you have done, I am with a complete stranger now.'
And she is a major affair down in every aspect.
Isn't MLC extraordinary. Please tell me you have never once doubted that this is MLC!
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No Kikki, NEVER!!
In the beginning I told him once I thought it was MLC. Once!! Since then every few weeks he brings up the subject. 'You think I'am having a MLC.' I never ever mentioned the word again. He does every few weeks. Once he almost convinced me. He looked so normal, acted so normal. But that day D21 called me that she had to tell me something terrible. She saw H and OW in the city. He walking in front of OW, not communicating with each other. And she looked terrible. Dreadlocks, she is about 50 years old and looking old, but dressing like a teenager my D told me. My H is a lawyer, but D21 told to me that OW is looking like a hippie and that he will never be able to take her to business events or things like that without looking completely ridiculous. She was with a friend of hers and this girl was in chock. She said this OW is the complete opposite of your mother. Ha ha ha
Since then I never had any doubt anymore.
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Doc Hudson, I read your question to R2D2, on why, as an unmarried woman with no kids, she was putting up with her man's behavior. As another unmarried woman who is standing for her partner (as are other unmarried partners on this site), I believe the reason is similar for all of us. It is because we know who are partners were, we recognize the 180 change in them as not being normal, and we, like even one else here, pray that someday they will emerge from their tunnel and remember who we were and what we had together (though I also know, no expectations!)
I had been with my partner for 16 years, when the man I considered my hero, changed into someone unrecognizable. The change was so drastic that I called his doctor concerned that my partner was in a major depressive episode. Now he is deep in replay and in love with his soulmate, who conveniently was a former student of his and lived around the corner from him all these years! Normal? No. MLC like, yes. I stand because I know who he was and don't believe our life, though not married was a complete lie, though like times I do question my memories after listening to him rewrite history for so long.
Just wanted to speak up for R2D2 and the rest of the unmarried here.
And, nice to meet you Doc, always read your posts.
To be candid, I understood this to be the answer to my question when I asked it.
That said, whether your ex-boyfriend is in MLC or not, or whether you are married or not, your ex-boyfriend emotionally abused you. The advice that I give you is the same advice that I would give any unmarried woman who does not have kids with her abuser: WALK! It's just that simple. Marriages and kids complicate things, at least somewhat, when dealing with an abuser, but you have no such complications. I understand your position when you say "Well, he hasn't always abused me and, thus, he must have CHANGED and maybe, just maybe, he can CHANGE back"... but, really, do you want to take back an abusive boyfriend? If my wife and I were unmarried and we didn't have kids, I would have been gone at BD and never looked back. Yes, I would have been sad, angry, hurt, embarassed... you name it... but there is no way that I would lower myself to waiting even a second for someone who cheated on me and shower absolutely no remorse in doing so. So, then, why am I even here? Why haven't I just filed on my wife? Well, long story short, I have two small children to raise until they are old enough to be left alone with their sociopathic mother in the likely event that she gets some form of custody. Sucks for me, but I will be moving on sooner rather than later.
I understand that you are in pain and that the man who you thought you knew was worth loving, but you are just now learning who your ex-boyfriend actually is. He hid this part of him from you for a decade and a half until he could hold it in no longer. Now you see it. It was always there. He hasn't changed. You are just finally seeing ALL of him. I thank God that you can get away from this person and never look back starting today. Seriously, I can understand that walking now may feel like you are setting aside 16 years of your life, but you aren't. You are a wiser, better woman than you were 16 years ago and I have to believe that a great guy is out there looking for someone like you. Please understand that I do not wish to offend you; rather, I offer you advice that I would give to my sister or my daughter. Your fidelity is an admirable quality but, honey, this guy doesn't deserve it.
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Hi Doc, You said to Brokenhearted,
I understand that you are in pain and that the man who you thought you knew was worth loving, but you are just now learning who your ex-boyfriend actually is. He hid this part of him from you for a decade and a half until he could hold it in no longer. Now you see it. It was always there. He hasn't changed.
You are saying you don't buy any of this mlc?
To me it makes no difference if you are married legally or not, you are married--in Canada a 16 y relationship is regarded as a legal marriage more or less. In my experience, commitment is commitment, what's a piece of paper? I always regretted getting married because I knew it had nothing to do with our relationship.
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Hi Doc, You said to Brokenhearted,
I understand that you are in pain and that the man who you thought you knew was worth loving, but you are just now learning who your ex-boyfriend actually is. He hid this part of him from you for a decade and a half until he could hold it in no longer. Now you see it. It was always there. He hasn't changed.
You are saying you don't buy any of this mlc?
To me it makes no difference if you are married legally or not, you are married--in Canada a 16 y relationship is regarded as a legal marriage more or less. In my experience, commitment is commitment, what's a piece of paper? I always regretted getting married because I knew it had nothing to do with our relationship.
Well, if MLC means the acute onset of a substantially latent mental illness that results in delusions, memory impairment, and essentially sociopathic behavior then, yes, I would say that MLC 'exists'. Depsite what many will say, it does not "come out of nowhere". It was there. Many of us just missed the warning signs. It's hard for me to admit this as I DID see the warning signs, but I was just too young and inexperienced to understand what they meant. That said, okay, what now?
In my experience, a piece of paper is a piece of paper, and if there is no committed relationship either, what EXACTLY do you have?
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"In my experience, a piece of paper is a piece of paper, and if there is no committed relationship either, what EXACTLY do you have?"
Why Doc we have what we all are living right now, what we choose to accept into our lives and what we have determined in our minds what level of commitment we want to have with our H/W/BF/GF.
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Hi Doc,
You said, Well, if MLC means the acute onset of a substantially latent mental illness that results in delusions, memory impairment, and essentially sociopathic behavior then, yes, I would say that MLC 'exists'.
I would agree with that. In fact I'm going to copy it to my journal.
But really a relationship is a relationship whether or not it is sanctioned by state or church. One is no 'freer' without the paperwork, it is still a 'divorce' [i hate that word]. The split may be different but the pain is the same.
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Well, if MLC means the acute onset of a substantially latent mental illness that results in delusions, memory impairment, and essentially sociopathic behavior then, yes, I would say that MLC 'exists'.
From RCR's article Midlife Crisis Takes Time
Though MLC is a clear state of dis-ease, it is not a disease. Though MLC is not a state of true mental illness, I find that it is often helpful for the Left-Behind-Spouse (LBS) to view the behaviour in this manner. It is a coping mechanism; a metaphor that can help us to understand. The balance is in not using it as an excuse as true insanity may be used.
Depsite what many will say, it does not "come out of nowhere". It was there. Many of us just missed the warning signs. It's hard for me to admit this as I DID see the warning signs, but I was just too young and inexperienced to understand what they meant. That said, okay, what now?
From RCR on the home page
I've studied Erik Erikson's stages of human development to gain an understanding of the roots of crisis and how they may manifest in adulthood.
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Calamity,
I think that Doc is saying the same thing. I just think that he see actual legal marriage and children as something that complicates the break-up more so than two people who aren't legally connected and have no children.
That does not mean that the emotional commitment isn't there...because it is.
Quite honestly, no break up is ever "easy" but, some are more difficult than others.....I don't know - this is the only long term relationship I've had in my life (I met my H at 19 and we have been married for 32 years).....and this break up is HARD....really, really hard.
Doc - Do you really believe that these personality traits have been in our spouses all this time...being hidden under a mask? Wow! I can honestly say that my H had issues.....but it is so difficult to believe that for 30 years he hid this selfish, narcissistic personality behind a mask of loving husband and father. My H was never a skirt chaser....yet, with MLC - he's an adulterer. Are you saying that this has been him all along...he just hid it or denied it?
Of course - anything is possible.....I just don't know. His actions are so out of character (like most of the stories here). And, yet his siblings seem to now believe that this is who he has always been and that I had kept him on the straight and narrow for all these years. Now, without me, he has "gone wild" taking selfishness to an extreme.
I can tell you that i really spent a lot of time trying to understand why...and what had happened to him. To the real world - MLC seems like an excuse for bad behavior.
L
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Of course - anything is possible.....I just don't know. His actions are so out of character (like most of the stories here). And, yet his siblings seem to now believe that this is who he has always been and that I had kept him on the straight and narrow for all these years. Now, without me, he has "gone wild" taking selfishness to an extreme.
I can tell you that i really spent a lot of time trying to understand why...and what had happened to him. To the real world - MLC seems like an excuse for bad behavior.
You know my H's family seems to think that I changed him and kept his personality in check because I was so controlling, he is now convinced of this too at least that is what he let me know early on. We must be all powerful if we can make someone act contrary to who they are year after year.
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But really a relationship is a relationship whether or not it is sanctioned by state or church. One is no 'freer' without the paperwork, it is still a 'divorce' [i hate that word]. The split may be different but the pain is the same.
I completely agree. BUT a relationship inherently requires two people. Once someone leaves the relationship... poof... you're on your own, at least with regard to THAT relationship. That's the reality we are faced with. In the event that our former partners seek us out again for a relationship, well, we each have to cross that bridge in our own way. If they really want us then they should pursue us with AT LEAST the same vigor that they pursued their 'true love' no matter where we are.
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Doc, I don't think we disagree on this, its just that I didn't want lbs's who aren't married to feel that we, on the board, view them differently.
Limitless you said:
I can tell you that i really spent a lot of time trying to understand why...and what had happened to him. To the real world - MLC seems like an excuse for bad behavior.
Even to me, mlc seems like an excuse for bad behaviour. Now I start to see it as a reason rather than an excuse. Also, I think the real world understands far more than we think. Mlc may not be taken seriously [until its personal!] but it think people are conscious of it more than we know.
It doesn't really matter. The lbs still has to deal with it. Somehow. I just want a logical explanation...yeah, I know, good luck with that.
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Doc,
I agree. That relationship is over. It took me a long time to accept that statement. When I would read...."your marriage died at Bomb Drop"....I didn't want to believe it. But, it is true.
Yes. You would like to think that the MLCer would, if/when he or she wanted to return - that he/she would pursue us with at least the same amount of effort that he/she pursued their "soul mate" during MLC.
Unfortunately, I don't think that is how it works.....
My H isn't going to show up with flowers, on bended knee, humbling himself and saying how wrong he was. Not likely to happen.
It's been chronicled here that they return home "broken." And, I think that is one of the things that really scares me. If and when my H wants to return....I will have even more to deal with as he will, most likely, be a hurting, broken man. I can tell you...right now...I don't have the strength to deal with that. I fear that I may not have it in the future......but who knows?
I have to admit...when I think about that I just want to scream "How much does an LBS have to take?" When in reality, we don't have to take that, do we? We ALWAYS have a choice.
If there is a low probabilty for reconciliation.......it's due to many things:
1) The amount of TIME this process takes
2) The willingness of the LBS - to still be there for the MLCer
3) The (seemingly) unforgiveable actions taken by the MLCer (and the LBS in some cases) during Replay...and beyond.
4) The amount of WORK this takes...(Guys - Standing is tough....tough....tough - no doubt).
I'm sure there are more reasons...
limitless
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Doc - Do you really believe that these personality traits have been in our spouses all this time...being hidden under a mask? Wow! I can honestly say that my H had issues.....but it is so difficult to believe that for 30 years he hid this selfish, narcissistic personality behind a mask of loving husband and father. My H was never a skirt chaser....yet, with MLC - he's an adulterer. Are you saying that this has been him all along...he just hid it or denied it?
Of course - anything is possible.....I just don't know. His actions are so out of character (like most of the stories here). And, yet his siblings seem to now believe that this is who he has always been and that I had kept him on the straight and narrow for all these years. Now, without me, he has "gone wild" taking selfishness to an extreme.
I can tell you that i really spent a lot of time trying to understand why...and what had happened to him. To the real world - MLC seems like an excuse for bad behavior.
L
Yes, it was there. No doubt in my mind. But let me be clear, I see ALL mental illness as merely selfishness, some more extreme than others. In fact, I've even read that the currently-developing thinking regarding personality disorders, schizophrenia, and sociopathy is just that. So let me rephrase, substantially latent SELFISHNESS that results in delusions, memory impairment, and essentially sociopathic behavior then, yes, I would say that MLC 'exists'. BUT aren't we all selfish in some way? Yes, but we have control over it and that's why no one else really sees this . Sure, we dip our toes into the selfishness pool all the time, but we get back to work and our daily lives of giving. Believe me, if I 'gave in' to my selfishness... Heaven help us all.
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Well since I am in a family with lots of mental illness I can say for certain that no one chooses that as a way of life.
It may appear to be selfish but I guarantee you that the person with the mental illness is not choosing to have that illness.
No more than one chooses to have cancer or a brain disease.
These are the cards that you are dealt and some illnesses are worse than others.
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RCR's article Wanting More
http://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/standing-actions_coming-and-going_wanting-more.html
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Well since I am in a family with lots of mental illness I can say for certain that no one chooses that as a way of life.
It may appear to be selfish but I guarantee you that the person with the mental illness is not choosing to have that illness.
No more than one chooses to have cancer or a brain disease.
These are the cards that you are dealt and some illnesses are worse than others.
OP, I am not saying that they are choosing their condition; rather, I am saying that their minds are so selfish that they believe what they want to believe instead of the truth. They completely tune out anyone who has a different 'opinion' than theirs. In fact, I too have people in my family who are 'mentally ill' and they are so focused on what they are thinking that they don't even notice that anyone even thinks differently than them. That is what so firghtening about this. If we are all selfish and we all have to fight our selfishness back, are we really just fighting back 'mental illness'? In my opinion, yes. Well, what happens when we give up that fight? There must be over 2000 thrads discussing this topic on this board alone.
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OP, I am not saying that they are choosing their condition; rather, I am saying that their minds are so selfish that they believe what they want to believe instead of the truth.
I think though that to them what they believe is the truth to them so why should they believe otherwise. I think that you are assuming that they have rational thought and it is clear by their own actions that they aren't rational. To them their version of events of the marriage, the paranoia the hurting, their feelings are truth and no matter how hard we try to show them reality, it simply isn't there. They are convinced it has to be this way and believe that the choice they are making is best for all and is going to save them from the problems.
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Doc, i don't think you are necessarily wrong about selfishness. If you look at all behaviour on a spectrum with selfishness near the 'normal' end and sociopathy at the other extreme, mlc behaviour does fit in somewhere. Anyway, we know mlc is not a diagnosed illness but it helps to explain some really inexplicable behaviour.
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Well, what happens when we give up that fight? There must be over 2000 thrads discussing this topic on this board alone.
If you are saying we need to detach then I could not agree more.
But that does not mean that we still do not LOVE them.
However I certainly agree that it must be from a distance.
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I think though that to them what they believe is the truth to them so why should they believe otherwise. I think that you are assuming that they have rational thought and it is clear by their own actions that they aren't rational. To them their version of events of the marriage, the paranoia the hurting, their feelings are truth and no matter how hard we try to show them reality, it simply isn't there. They are convinced it has to be this way and believe that the choice they are making is best for all and is going to save them from the problems.
The affair is selfishness. The rewriting of history is selfishness. EVERYTHING about what they do is selfish. They gave up the fight and gave in. They want what they want but the problem is, we are not what they want. If or when they decide to fight back their selfishness, we may be something they want again. Usually, by that point though, they are not something that anyone would really want.
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OP, I am not saying that they are choosing their condition; rather, I am saying that their minds are so selfish that they believe what they want to believe instead of the truth. They completely tune out anyone who has a different 'opinion' than theirs.
Yes, this is very much a component of MLC.
If we are all selfish and we all have to fight our selfishness back, are we really just fighting back 'mental illness'? In my opinion, yes.
We may be fighting back human nature, but I don't agree that we are really fighting back mental illness.
There must be over 2000 thrads discussing this topic on this board alone.
There are also articles and blogs on this website that provide helpful information.
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The affair is selfishness. The rewriting of history is selfishness. EVERYTHING about what they do is selfish. They gave up the fight and gave in. They want what they want but the problem is, we are not what they want.
I would agree with these things. They are basic to MLC. They are why it becomes a crisis versus a transition.
If or when they decide to fight back their selfishness, we may be something they want again. Usually, by that point though, they are not something that anyone would really want.
I don't necessarily agree with this. Perhaps the LBS isn't interested at this point. Fair enough. But consider this information from Jim Conway about who they may become after going through their crisis.
"After many of the values are sorted out and realigned, there is a gradual coming-down from anxiety and a return, surprisingly enough, to life structures quite similar to the previous ones, only now more refined and effective."
RCR's article "A Midlife Metaphor" is perhaps the best I've read at describing the MLC process. From the shattered brokenness of Liminality to Rebirth as Conway describes above, using the example of Humpty Dumpty gives good imagery of this in my opinion.
http://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/mlc_overview_midlife-metaphor.html
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Doc,
You have done your job of assisting LBS bros and sis here. It is up to them to process and reach their own conclusions.
MLC is crap. One must run away from it as fast as one can, irrespective of one's decision to stand or not. Just one data point..howver in retropsect (and only in retropsect) I could see that how all the ingredients were there for my W's MLC from day 1. I was fool and ignorant (I did not know this MLC crap, hormone play, preimenaupuase, menapuse....for which I must take responsibility and suffer.. and yes I have done both).
I must run away from MLC as fast as I can to save sanity of myself and my kids.
Love, compassoin, mental illeness, pity.. oh yes, I am cycling through all of that.. but for now.. my priority is to RUN, RUN away from MLC,......similar to my MLC W running away from HERSELF.
Dr. NO
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I have been reading up on tranisitional personality and that research now concludes although recommending more study, that all people see changes in personality from birth to death. They do acknowledge that traumatic events can also change the personality of a person.
Based upon my initial readings, I think MLC is really a transistional crisis. Just like adolescents find the transistion difficult others go into complete crisis. Likewise the tranisition from single adult to family is another transistion that most make, I see others go into crisis. In this regard, I think of the younger women with children whose H suddnely rejects the family even with really young children involved. Our situation is another crisis as well.
Of course, I an fleshing out the details. However, regardless of how we look at the situation, we have to realize that it is a crisis that strikes a relatively small percentage of the population. Therefore, it doesn't warrant a blip on the social science radar screen.
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Of course, I an fleshing out the details. However, regardless of how we look at the situation, we have to realize that it is a crisis that strikes a relatively small percentage of the population.
Ready
I agree. When I first began to see what information I could find about MLC, one of the things that struck me was the Conway book I found was written about 30 years ago. It's not a mainstream book. I believe that everyone transitions and matures during their life span. MLCers are that relatively small percentage who are unable to transition normally.
There are other issues such as perhaps mental illess, trauma or injury that can affect behavior.....but I do not categorize them with MLC.
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The affair is selfishness. The rewriting of history is selfishness. EVERYTHING about what they do is selfish. They gave up the fight and gave in. They want what they want but the problem is, we are not what they want.
I would agree with these things. They are basic to MLC. They are why it becomes a crisis versus a transition.
If or when they decide to fight back their selfishness, we may be something they want again. Usually, by that point though, they are not something that anyone would really want.
I don't necessarily agree with this. Perhaps the LBS isn't interested at this point. Fair enough. But consider this information from Jim Conway about who they may become after going through their crisis.
"After many of the values are sorted out and realigned, there is a gradual coming-down from anxiety and a return, surprisingly enough, to life structures quite similar to the previous ones, only now more refined and effective."
RCR's article "A Midlife Metaphor" is perhaps the best I've read at describing the MLC process. From the shattered brokenness of Liminality to Rebirth as Conway describes above, using the example of Humpty Dumpty gives good imagery of this in my opinion.
http://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/mlc_overview_midlife-metaphor.html
With all due respect, let's say that you are single again, and I come up to you and say: "Hey, let me set you up with a girl that I know. She's recently divorced because she cheated on her husband, neglected and rejected her kids, ran up the credit card bills before she left, and then publically humiliated him all the while showing absolutely no remorse. Don't worry though, she's over her little crisis now and is allegedly a better person. Do you want her number?"
If your reply is anything other than "F*CK NO!", you, my friend, need a white jacket with really long sleeves.
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The affair is selfishness. The rewriting of history is selfishness. EVERYTHING about what they do is selfish. They gave up the fight and gave in. They want what they want but the problem is, we are not what they want.
I would agree with these things. They are basic to MLC. They are why it becomes a crisis versus a transition.
If or when they decide to fight back their selfishness, we may be something they want again. Usually, by that point though, they are not something that anyone would really want.
I don't necessarily agree with this. Perhaps the LBS isn't interested at this point. Fair enough. But consider this information from Jim Conway about who they may become after going through their crisis.
"After many of the values are sorted out and realigned, there is a gradual coming-down from anxiety and a return, surprisingly enough, to life structures quite similar to the previous ones, only now more refined and effective."
RCR's article "A Midlife Metaphor" is perhaps the best I've read at describing the MLC process. From the shattered brokenness of Liminality to Rebirth as Conway describes above, using the example of Humpty Dumpty gives good imagery of this in my opinion.
http://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/mlc_overview_midlife-metaphor.html
With all due respect, let's say that you are single again, and I come up to you and say: "Hey, let me set you up with a girl that I know. She's recently divorced because she cheated on her husband, neglected and rejected her kids, ran up the credit card bills before she left, and then publically humiliated him all the while showing absolutely no remorse. Don't worry though, she's over her little crisis now and is allegedly a better person. Do you want her number?"
If your reply is anything other than "F*CK NO!", you, my friend, need a white jacket with really long sleeves.
She is likely not through her crisis if she is not showing remorse. And what you are describing is setting her up with someone other than her husband or ex-husband. That would make me OM, and my reply would be simply "no".
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She is likely not through her crisis if she is not showing remorse.
DGU
Are you saying that all MCLers show remorse after they get through their crisis? I've heard it said many times that they often just want to forget the whole situation (and in some cases have forgotten much of it) and so they don't always show remorse.
OMJ
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OMJ,
I know you are asking DGU, but I will chime in here.
I don't think that there is any "all" related to MLC - or really in anything in life.
I believe that "most" do. And of those "most" - I would include those who regret, but do not verbalize it. The ones who don't regret? I would imagine their future life would be pretty bleak.....to have no remorse for such a terrible act/acts.
To Doc....Angry much, Doc? I hear you. I get it. I had thought I had pretty much let go of the anger...but there is was yesterday....I was so very angry.
The whole thing is unfair. Unfair to me...to my kids....to his family and mine. Yes. I blame him for the lot of it. And I find myself angry at him.
Then I realize all this anger is eating me up inside....and pretty much NOT doing anything to him......the anger is poison for me......
It's something that I need to work through and let go of.
Does he deserve my anger. Darn skippy he does. Do I deserve to be eaten up inside with that anger? No. I don't. So the choice is mine.
Detach, let go...or be an old, angry, bitter woman.
Honestly - I can say that I do not love the shell of a man/child that he is. Who could love that?
I did, once, love the man he was.
I guess I have hope that it is MLC....and he will "recover" someday and be more like the man he was.....hopeful...but not expecting it to be.
Take care..Doc.....Work through that anger - for you and your kids.
L
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She is likely not through her crisis if she is not showing remorse.
DGU
Are you saying that all MCLers show remorse after they get through their crisis? I've heard it said many times that they often just want to forget the whole situation (and in some cases have forgotten much of it) and so they don't always show remorse.
OMJ
Would I say all MLCers show remorse? Probably not, but I think many, if not most of them will at some point.
The article from RCR I linked earlier titled "Wanting More" has some good insight.
From RCR's article Stories and Human Behavior
More common is for a person to regret their actions--often when they are too late because the spouse has closed the opportunity for marital reconciliation.
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Detach, let go...or be an old, angry, bitter woman.
Honestly - I can say that I do not love the shell of a man/child that he is. Who could love that?
I did, once, love the man he was.
I guess I have hope that it is MLC....and he will "recover" someday and be more like the man he was.....hopeful...but not expecting it to be.
Take care..Doc.....Work through that anger - for you and your kids.
L
I'll second that. cj
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I believe that "most" do. And of those "most" - I would include those who regret, but do not verbalize it. The ones who don't regret? I would imagine their future life would be pretty bleak.....to have no remorse for such a terrible act/acts.
I guess I was thinking of remorse as actually verbalizing it to their spouse. I sure hope that most do. I do know of some men who regretted but may not have verbalized it to their spouse.
Thanks L
OMJ
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I regretted everything I did and felt all the pain I caused. It was hard to overcome that hurt and to try to make amends. I wanted to tell my W how sorry I was and tried but she was well on her way into MLC and did not want to hear me. She still does not and it still hurts. Maybe that is why I keep ripping the scab off my healing wounds and can't seem to detach the way I should.
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Riv, know that apologizing for things right now when they can't receive it will only keep them in the tunnel. They'd gladly let us take the blame for everything, whether we had a crisis or not, and it would just prolong the process of them realizing who they are and what they need to fix. The day will come, but we all have to be on even footing when we're there, or it won't count.
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OP, I am not saying that they are choosing their condition; rather, I am saying that their minds are so selfish that they believe what they want to believe instead of the truth. They completely tune out anyone who has a different 'opinion' than theirs. In fact, I too have people in my family who are 'mentally ill' and they are so focused on what they are thinking that they don't even notice that anyone even thinks differently than them. That is what so firghtening about this. If we are all selfish and we all have to fight our selfishness back, are we really just fighting back 'mental illness'? In my opinion, yes. Well, what happens when we give up that fight? There must be over 2000 thrads discussing this topic on this board alone.
I think you may be confused on this, Doc, or perhaps creating confusion in the explanation. People who are "mentally ill" do not see the world as others do and are in a sense "selfish" as their natural instinct for self-preservation kicks in just as those who are not mentally ill. What needs to be clarified is that you are comparing apples and oranges in the same way that two people could be watching completely different movies and applying completely different analyses. If a person's perception is skewed or flawed, they cannot be expected to have proper judgment as they do not have equal or comparable positions from which to pass those judgments.
And as far as the current schools of thought about mental illness and personality disorders, I would guess you are referring to Dr. Wubbolding's "Choice Theory" or Dr. Glasser's "Reality Therapy" approach. Dr. Glasser, for those who don't know, is an MD who does not believe in psychotropic medication. One of the tenements of his therapy model is that clients are not "depressed," but rather "choosing to depress." Other than schizophrenia, Glasser believes that talk therapy can help people to overcome mental illnesses. I use and practice many of Glasser's techniques, but cannot say that I subscribe to them inasmuch as many of my university professors do. A pure Reality Therapist would not use the term "personality disorder" but rather "personality style" to describe what other therapists would see as a problematic personality. Again, I think Glasser and Wubbolding (and I may get to meet Wubbolding soon!) have some very good points and I am working to further my knowledge of Reality Therapy but I do not agree completely with either of them. To each his own, though.
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Riv, know that apologizing for things right now when they can't receive it will only keep them in the tunnel. They'd gladly let us take the blame for everything, whether we had a crisis or not, and it would just prolong the process of them realizing who they are and what they need to fix. The day will come, but we all have to be on even footing when we're there, or it won't count.
Ready I was not talking about now, I would not try to apologize to her now. I was talking about when I awoke from my MLC, I tried so hard to apologize and to make amends but was cut short by her rage.
Yes I am beginning to realize many things I thought I already knew. One being that any talk of R will keep them firmly entrenched in the tunnel.
I like the saying "The one who cares less about a relationship controls the course of that relationship."
or something to that effect, I always seem to get quotes wrong. But you get the gist, detach and they will begin to notice, continue to be detached and they will start to follow. Like a moth to a flame.
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But you get the gist, detach and they will begin to notice, continue to be detached and they will start to follow. Like a moth to a flame.
I am detached. I have had zero contact with my W since 4th Dec 2010. We are separated by six hundred miles and a lot of salt water. She is not following like a moth to a flame. For my own happiness I do not need her to; I just hope she is not being manipulated, exploited and suffering.
The "detach and they will follow" advise is not guaranteed to succeed.
honour
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But you get the gist, detach and they will begin to notice, continue to be detached and they will start to follow. Like a moth to a flame.
I am detached. I have had zero contact with my W since 4th Dec 2010. We are separated by six hundred miles and a lot of salt water. She is not following like a moth to a flame. For my own happiness I do not need her to; I just hope she is not being manipulated, exploited and suffering.
The "detach and they will follow" advise is not guaranteed to succeed.
honour
Yesh I guess I was talking more about my own sitch, live in MLC'er.
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I second honour, the "detach and they will follow" is not guaranteed to succeed. I have not seen my husband in more than 4 years, only have like once or two talks with him a year and for bureaucratic reasons, we live more than 300km apart.
He has not followed at all. If anything he would follow when I was much more attached, during OW1. By then he was always after me. Since I start to pull away he become more and more gone.
Unlike honour I’m certain mine is being manipulated and exploited, starting with his lawyer, and most likely is suffering. Still, nothing I can do about it.
But the detachement is for us, to give us space, peace of mind, allow for heal and growth, not to lure them.
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I like the saying "The one who cares less about a relationship controls the course of that relationship."
or something to that effect, I always seem to get quotes wrong. But you get the gist, detach and they will begin to notice, continue to be detached and they will start to follow. Like a moth to a flame.
Riven, I agree that the one who cares less about a relationship controls the course of tha relationshipbut not with "
detach and they will begin to notice, continue to be detached and they will start to follow. Like a moth to a flame." Maybe I'm in a bad space. Today h said that he can now move on because I have built a new life and got new friends. So much for detaching.
OMJ
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Today h said that he can now move on because I have built a new life and got new friends. So much for detaching.
It's not normal for someone to say something like that. It sounds like MLC script to make you feel guilty for GAL'ing! I mean, was he not moving on before, y'know?
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Ready I was not talking about now, I would not try to apologize to her now. I was talking about when I awoke from my MLC, I tried so hard to apologize and to make amends but was cut short by her rage.
Fair enough (and I think I meant to throw in that I too tried to have that convo around BD when he was Monster and I was coming out of it - he wouldn't/couldn't hear it. Freaked me out until I found this place. :)
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RivenIN2
How long was your MLC Journey. Were you experiencing similar feelings/thoughts/fog before you dropped bomb on your spouse? What made you turn around?
Dr. NO
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I do not remember reading anywhere to"detach and they will follow". I have read that if your relationship was one where you were the pursuer, that it is a good idea to do a 180 degree change and not pursue.
Detaching is as we know for our sanity...nothing we do/say/insist upon/withdraw is going to cause them to come back. They are reacting to their own inner turmoil...something that goes back to their childhood and it has NOTHING TO DO with us...this is indeed their crisis so as Stayed is so fond of reminding me...get a life and do not focus on their journey.
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Today h said that he can now move on because I have built a new life and got new friends. So much for detaching.
It's not normal for someone to say something like that. It sounds like MLC script to make you feel guilty for GAL'ing! I mean, was he not moving on before, y'know?
So true mine said something similar "I guess W has all the support she needs with all those that are around her......I am here if people want to talk" on FB. They left now want you to feel guilty because you do something, never mind what they are doing to destroy and you are doing stuff to survive and repair the destruction they inflicted on us.
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RivenIN2
How long was your MLC Journey. Were you experiencing similar feelings/thoughts/fog before you dropped bomb on your spouse? What made you turn around?
Dr. NO
My MLC lasted a total of 6 years from start to finish. At least a year was with no outward signs to anyone. What thoughts feelings are you asking about? Yes I was in a fog most of that time. I did not drop a bomb on my W I internalized everything until I was going into severe depression and then self medicated myself with my painkillers. I am disabled and get them for my back, I started using more and more until my dosage was more than a cancer patients. I have been clean now for over 3 years and having talked with multiple therapists it seems I do not have a typical addictive personality but was in effect trying to get away from the mental anguish I was experiencing. I never left home either but did cut myself off from everyone. I did in fact think many of the typical MLC thoughts, including the need to run and to push my spouse away. I did not ask for divorce but thought about it almost daily for months. If I had not become dependent on painkillers I would have been driven to leave.
P.S. Can everyone please forget what I said before, it was not really advice and was more about me and my situation. I did not mean to start a debate on weather or not it was a workable tool. Riv
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thanks for sharing yr exp. riven. It can't be easy to review it.
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thanks for sharing yr exp. riven. It can't be easy to review it.
Actually I have healed enough to be able to share it without feeling any pain but I will carry the scars for the rest of my life.
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Riven- thanks for sharing. So for 6 years, you had this 'mental anguish'. I hear about the pain the MLCers go through.
Can you, if you don't mind, describe what this mental anguish is like?
Is it like feeling guilty, or ashamed, or hopeless and then depressed? Just trying to understand the pain that would cause you to want to push your loved ones away...
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To Doc....Angry much, Doc? I hear you. I get it. I had thought I had pretty much let go of the anger...but there is was yesterday....I was so very angry.
Take care..Doc.....Work through that anger - for you and your kids.
Angry, yes and no. It's more like a mix of righteous indignation and a helathy dose of testosterone. It is what it is. Thanks for the concern, though.
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Riven- thanks for sharing. So for 6 years, you had this 'mental anguish'. I hear about the pain the MLCers go through.
Can you, if you don't mind, describe what this mental anguish is like?
Is it like feeling guilty, or ashamed, or hopeless and then depressed? Just trying to understand the pain that would cause you to want to push your loved ones away...
Hobo1 the pain is all mental, for me it started with not wanting to do ANY of the things I always liked to do. Nothing brought me any sense of comfort or relaxation. It was very much like a serious depression with all the symptoms of it. But it went further then that as it progressed into the fog state where I was walking around in perpetual confusion and would forget the simplest things. I also did not sleep well and began to have the feeling of not being able to feel at ease. RCR described MLC as a state of Dis-Ease not Disease. I find that to be the most descriptive way to say it, I was always feeling dis-ease or the lack of ease. No matter what anyone did or said I could not feel at ease within my own skin.
As this feeling grew and took over my every waking moment I began to blame those around me which happen to be those closest to me. W, D, S and other family members that live within walking distance. It had to be their fault who else could it be? Not mine that's for sure! Anyway the rest is all scripted, and more of the same with varying degrees of severity.
Today I am fighting depression and the feeling of missing the W. So far I am still able to beat back the blues and keep my head above water. She is either going back into replay or revisiting each of the stages on her way to overt depression. She is doing some history revision and telling friends I am trying to diagnose her with depression. She claims I was watching a documentary on depression yesterday and fooling myself into believing she was in that state. I actuality I was watching a doc on the human brain and there was a short part discussing depression but only to emphasize the chemical changes that occur within the brain at that time. Anyway she posted this on a friends FB page.
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You said, I was always feeling dis-ease or the lack of ease. No matter what anyone did or said I could not feel at ease within my own skin.
That's really interesting. I have definitely felt that dis-ease but never for more than a few hours.
cj
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You said, I was always feeling dis-ease or the lack of ease. No matter what anyone did or said I could not feel at ease within my own skin.
That's really interesting. I have definitely felt that dis-ease but never for more than a few hours.
cj
I think everyone has felt this way at some point in their life but like you said only for a few hours. During MLC once it starts it never stops, you go to sleep and wake up feeling this way. Always on edge, like fight or flight 24/7. It is exhausting and can play havoc with your mental aptitude.
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Very, very true. It's like being tortured. I don't know about you, Riv, but for me it brought back memories of things I hadn't thought about in many, many years. When I did sleep, I had horrible nightmares. And even amidst lashing out at those around me, I almost felt like a bullied kid - I didn't WANT to be doing that, but I felt that I had to.
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Hi Doc..with what you say :
"... she cheated on her husband, neglected and rejected her kids, ran up the credit card bills before she left, and then publically humiliated him all the while showing absolutely no remorse. Don't worry though, she's over her little crisis now and is allegedly a better person. Do you want her number?"
What I don't get - is what version of themselves do they therefore present to the affair OW/OM before they even leave H/W.. if not this MLC behaviour or do they put it on hold while they are in the chemical high stage of pursuing OW/OM..wouldn't a sane person pick up on some very weird personality traits?
I too wonder if certain traits have been lying dormant in my H..or he did his best until he just couldn't help himself anymore when lapping up the ego stroking from the female work mate/s ....recently he told a mutual friend that his 'pattern' seems to be starting another relationship before finishing his current one..(and doesn't get it...just says 'i guess that's just who i am" - good god! self absorbed/self pity crap) as he likes to phrase it...i tell him that's adultery..he left his first wife and one year old (when he was 30ish/ 7 years before we met - he was away a couple of years and did want to reconcile but she wasn't interested) in a similar fashion..affair (we were together 20+ years before his latest run..does that make a pattern? what have i missed in between!) -..the accumulation of this, that and the other that produces the perfect mucky storm. and so it goes.
Thru my pollyanna-ish eyes i just thought he would never do it again of course! hadn't he learnt anything? Boy have i grown up..I really find it so difficult to believe that any affair relationship that has started in such cling-on muck and delusion has any room to grow anything except weeds ! :o
Having seen and heard such weirdness, my H was almost like a person who had willingly tripped into delusions of grandeur and it was scary to think he believed what he was saying and doing..but..there was always a glimmer of guilt .. to me he never completely lost a piece of the truth, but pushed it away, didn't want to face it..wanted the 'drug' of love...maybe it's a weakness, a character flaw that he plays to..the musician/songwriter that he is! No body else matters. that's my ramble for now...
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What I don't get - is what version of themselves do they therefore present to the affair OW/OM before they even leave H/W.. if not this MLC behaviour or do they put it on hold while they are in the chemical high stage of pursuing OW/OM..wouldn't a sane person pick up on some very weird personality traits?
Jude - Believe me - these OW/OM would have to be emotionally stunted.
I was the target of obsession for my MLC boss, some 20 years ago. Knowing what love felt like, I can confirm that obsession feels plain weird. To think that that is in any way normal is just a joke.
My Boss pursued me relentlessly for many many months. He simply did not give up. I had zero interest, and knew he was a depressed mess. I kept telling him to go and get help. He didn't, but was on medication.
One day, I remember walking in on him staring with adoring eyes at my wedding photo, with a benign grin on his face. I had taken some pictures to work, and he had grabbed a handful and took off to view them more closely. He was saying that I was his dream girl (to himself)!!!
It was creepy to say the least.
My H too had extreme delusions of grandeur. His ego inflation was unbelievable. The shadow of all that creativity perhaps? He previously had been a very modest man, but I now have to wonder if that was a cover up??
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Continued here
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=2600.0